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Monday, June 25, 2018

OTP 2018 June 25: Charles Krauthammer’s Love Of Baseball Leaves A Lasting Legacy

In recent days, many of Charles’ admirers had honored his formidable body of work and conservative convictions. I’m here to pay respects to his love of baseball, which made him and the world a happier place.

“If you believe, as do I, that God created baseball as a relief from politics, I herewith offer, as a public service, a column about [Bryce] Harper & friends,” he wrote in an exquisite column for The Washington Post in 2016.

 

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 25, 2018 at 11:43 AM | 2113 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   1. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: June 25, 2018 at 12:30 PM (#5699128)
Charles Krauthammer’s Love Of Baseball Leaves A Lasting Legacy


Piffle.
   2. Swoboda is freedom Posted: June 25, 2018 at 12:40 PM (#5699136)
What is the matter with Walgreen's?
   3. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 25, 2018 at 12:43 PM (#5699138)
What is the matter with Walgreen's?


It is a fine company. The DJIA is kind of dumb though, but on its own (dumb) basis I doesn't feel like Walgreens fits well into their (dumb) niche.
   4. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 25, 2018 at 12:44 PM (#5699139)
Charles Krauthammer’s Love Of Baseball Leaves A Lasting Legacy


Something akin to a skid mark on a pair of tighty whiteies that will never wash out.
   5. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 25, 2018 at 12:46 PM (#5699140)
"The unborn" are a convenient group of people to advocate for. They never make demands of you; they are morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor; they don't resent your condescension or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows, they don't ask you to question patriarchy; unlike orphans, they don't need money, education, or childcare; unlike aliens, they don't bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike; they allow you to feel good about yourself without any work at creating or maintaining relationships; and when they are born, you can forget about them, because they cease to be unborn. It's almost as if, by being born, they have died to you. You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus but actually dislike people who breathe.

Prisoners? Immigrants? The sick? The poor? Widows? Orphans? All the groups that are specifically mentioned in the Bible? They all get thrown under the bus for the unborn.
   6. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 25, 2018 at 12:50 PM (#5699144)
IIRC, my no. 1 objection was that it offered a pathway to citizenship, not mere legalization

What a wonderful idea - it's always been the sign of a great country to create lesser statutory classes of residents... some with full rights, some without.
Every country in the history of nation states ever has distinguished between citizens and non-citizens. Long before Trump. back when America was Already Great™, the U.S. still distinguished between immigrant visas and non-immigrant visas. Some could eventually become citizens, and some could not. Not sure how that suddenly became a great injustice... unless one is for open borders.
   7. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 25, 2018 at 12:51 PM (#5699145)
Beyond trying to mind-read what liberals think about "open borders", and expressing generally favorable views about Jeff Sessions, has David actually spelled out HIS OWN ideas on immigration? Specifically:

----After fulfilling the requirements spelled out in the Gang of 8 Bill or Obama's E.O., should illegal immigrant who've put down roots here for X number of years be given a chance at legalization? At citizenship?

----If not either, then should all illegal aliens be rounded up and deported? Even those without even a misdemeanor conviction on their record?

----And if the answers to both of the above questions is "NO", then what? Just leave them all hanging there while waiting to see if their name will come up in the ICE lottery?

We can tell what David doesn't like---"open borders"---but beyond that, he hasn't really been all that clear. Maybe this will spur him to tell us his thoughts, and in return I'll allow him five free personal insults to make him feel better.
   8. dlf Posted: June 25, 2018 at 12:57 PM (#5699146)
What is the matter with Walgreen's?


The Dow was created to be the 30 companies most representative of the larger U.S. equities market (excluding transportation and utilities). Walgreens is much less of an indicator of the current state of the economy than many other companies that aren't listed. By market cap, the numbers 3, 4, 5, 7&8 (the two different classes of Google), 11, 14, 16, 17, 24, 25, 26 ... aren't in ... but they made room for #95.
   9. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 25, 2018 at 01:02 PM (#5699148)
By market cap, the numbers 3, 4, 5, 7&8 (the two different classes of Google), 11, 14, 16, 17 24, 25, 26 ... aren't in ... but they made room for #95.


Another reason the Dow is silly is the way they weight companies, or more specifically, don't weight them. They can't add Google or Amazon, because their stock price is too high. It would throw the index out of whack. But if they did a couple of stock splits, they could. If they added Berkshire-Hathaway, the index would immediately jump 284,000 points.
   10. Zonk prescribes Rezine for TDS Posted: June 25, 2018 at 01:03 PM (#5699151)
A) People who sneak across the border and claim asylum should be let into the country for months or years while their claim is being adjudicated.

For the most part. As with other misdemeanors, I believe law enforcement should have - and the policy should include - a fair bit of discretion. Mistakes will be made in both directions, but 'zero tolerance' is stupid AND expensive.

B) Asylum should be available to anyone whose country sucks, even if they aren't being persecuted by their government.

I'd very much prefer asylum criteria be expanded.

C) Trying to keep people from crossing the border is bad.

Barely a month returned, I've rapidly become reacquainted with post-Cubs game litter ending up in the front yard. I support littering laws... but no, I do not support stationing police 10 to a block to stop it, under no circumstances would I support paying more in rent to hire a security guard to ensure it doesn't happen, and I certainly don't want some huge, tall fence to prevent it. The nominal fines for those caught doing so are enough for me... and I'm even OK with a PO exercising some discretion and deciding that a stern talking to while the litterer picks up his or her trash and puts it in an appropriate receptacle suffices rather than a citation.

D) Virtually anyone who has successfully come across the border should be allowed to stay permanently...

Depends what they've done since making it across successfully.

E) ...and should be put on track for citizenship.


Yes. I absolutely oppose and think it's horribly bad policy to create permanent second-class residents. I'm OK with the process to this taking some manner of years - 15 is too many. I'm OK with the process requiring application, verification, and even some light manner of contribution (even if that means nothing more than gainful employment). But yes. Absolutely.
   11. Zonk prescribes Rezine for TDS Posted: June 25, 2018 at 01:07 PM (#5699154)
Who am I to question Mouse and his initiative to give us weekly OTPs...

But this would have made a good one:

Hank Aaron on whether he would visit White House: 'There's nobody there I want to see'
   12. Zonk prescribes Rezine for TDS Posted: June 25, 2018 at 01:16 PM (#5699158)
Every country in the history of nation states ever has distinguished between citizens and non-citizens. Long before Trump. back when America was Already Great™, the U.S. still distinguished between immigrant visas and non-immigrant visas. Some could eventually become citizens, and some could not. Not sure how that suddenly became a great injustice... unless one is for open borders.


It's "could" that does a lot of heavy lifting here... and that's what I object to.

It really shouldn't need to be said, but apparently it does... If someone wishes to temporarily reside in the US - for education, work, or even some manner of other reasons (say, helping out with a family trauma or emergency where the needs require an indeterminate length of stay), such mechanisms should exist.

If one wishes to come and stay permanently, then yes. They SHOULD have a path to full citizenship. No "coulds" about it.
   13. Count Posted: June 25, 2018 at 01:17 PM (#5699160)
For the 10th time, many people seeking asylum are currently allowed to legally reside and work in the country while their cases are pending. The fact that the right wingers are now opposed to that is a good example of Trump moving the immigration discussion to the right.
   14. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 25, 2018 at 01:19 PM (#5699162)
Who am I to question Mouse and his initiative to give us weekly OTPs...


For the record I do a Google News search and pull one out. I don't spend much time on it, but yes that is better than the one I chose. Good article.
   15. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 25, 2018 at 01:21 PM (#5699164)
Was this quoted already? If so my apologies.

“If you get me one more glass of wine, I’ll tell you stuff only Bob Mueller and I know. If you think you’ve seen wild stuff so far, buckle up. It’s going to be a wild couple of months.”

— Sen. Mark Warner (D-VA), quoted by Politico, a dinner Friday night for more than 100 guests at his house on Martha’s Vineyard.
   16. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 25, 2018 at 01:23 PM (#5699165)
Hank Aaron on whether he would visit White House: 'There's nobody there I want to see'

Aaron, Schmaaron. I'm sure that JE and Clapper would volunteer to take his place. Just think----the opportunity to network with Stephen Miller!
   17. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 25, 2018 at 01:26 PM (#5699166)
Reversal of fortune: Obamacare rate hikes pose headache for Republicans

That’s because Republicans are now in total control of the federal government and therefore on the hook for the health care system’s chronic shortcomings. Polling data has consistently suggested that more voters will blame Republicans for future problems with Obamacare. In addition, the GOP’s repeated failures to repeal Obamacare after eight years of campaign promises will make it difficult to galvanize the base on health care.

Democrats and their allies have been hammering President Donald Trump and congressional Republicans for “sabotaging” the health care markets and driving up premiums. Protect Our Care has been running digital ads in 13 states featuring news coverage of big rate hikes and concluding with a sound bite from Trump: “Let Obamacare implode.”


I am sure this time when voters are hit with a sharp increase in premium rates they will totally ignore everything Trump has said about purposefully sabotaging ACA and also ignore the fact that the GOP controls the House, Senate, and White House and will totally punish Democrats. Right?

Still what does politico know?

The big picture: 2018's stormiest clouds for the GOP

A source close to Republican leadership emails about the biggest political clouds hovering over the rest of the year:

"Only thing that matters now is a) how bad they get crushed on ACA premium increases; b) the final Mueller verdict; and c) how crazy Trump gets with the CR."

Between the lines: Republicans are worried about the potential for health insurance premiums to skyrocket in September, shortly before the midterms. Democrats are seizing on health care as their number one issue.

   18. Zonk prescribes Rezine for TDS Posted: June 25, 2018 at 01:33 PM (#5699168)
For the 10th time, many people seeking asylum are currently allowed to legally reside and work in the country while their cases are pending. The fact that the right wingers are now opposed to that is a good example of Trump moving the immigration discussion to the right.


There are too many good examples of this to count, Count.

Just a few hours ago, Juannity brought up birthright citizenship. Of course, Half the Republican in 2016 were in favor of this - but unlike his whinging about "open borders! open borders!", he pretends this doesn't exist or is some niche position.

Even the "but but but we luvs the legal immigration!" is now bullshit - laid obvious and bare by the way in which immigration debates and proposals have played out, with the nativists in the GOP clearly seeking to shrink even legal immigration.

Ray's salty tears yesterday taste great.

The nativists and white nationalists are now running the GOP show.... and they've been given a free hand to foist bullshit imagery, faulty narrative, and racist rhetoric onto the debate for years now.

So - the counter-offensive narrative gives you the sads? Too ####### bad. It's typical of the Trumpkins: quiet, almost inaudible tsk-tsks while loudly and monotonously demanding everybody else play by obviously archaic rules of decorum and substance they've done thing to enforce on the original and worst offenders.

Immigration advocates - and nominal Democratic allies - would be complete idiots not to play the same game that Trump and his minions played and continues playing.

By all means... keep up with the whinging. All that sounds like to my ears is that the counter offensive is working.
   19. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: June 25, 2018 at 01:34 PM (#5699170)
It is strange how the DJIA has remained the daily measure for the public stock markets. I'm 15+ years in the financial industry and nobody uses it, talks about, refers to it. I mean, lord knows there are plenty of indices thanks in part to the proliferation of ETFs, its just the DJIA is a bit passe, in addition to being a terrible measure for reasons previously noted.
   20. OCF Posted: June 25, 2018 at 01:35 PM (#5699171)
C) Trying to keep people from crossing the border is bad.

...I support littering laws... and I'm even OK with a PO exercising some discretion and deciding that a stern talking to while the litterer picks up his or her trash and puts it in an appropriate receptacle suffices rather than a citation.

I saw a story a day or two ago: a French citizen visiting relatives near Vancouver BC went for a jog on the beach, not carrying ID. She crossed the US border apparently without intending to, had to detour off the beach because of a rising tide, and got picked up by CPB. She was held in custody for something like two weeks before being released back into Canada. Sure seems like exercising some discretion in this case would have involved the Border Patrol guys telling her to just jog back northward, and they'd watch to make sure she left.
   21. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 25, 2018 at 01:38 PM (#5699172)
“If you get me one more glass of wine, I’ll tell you stuff only Bob Mueller and I know. If you think you’ve seen wild stuff so far, buckle up. It’s going to be a wild couple of months.”

— Sen. Mark Warner (D-VA), quoted by Politico, a dinner Friday night for more than 100 guests at his house on Martha’s Vineyard.


Qanon says the hour of reckoning is coming for Obama and his afro-Jihadists.
   22. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: June 25, 2018 at 01:40 PM (#5699173)
Another reason the Dow is silly is the way they weight companies, or more specifically, don't weight them. They can't add Google or Amazon, because their stock price is too high. It would throw the index out of whack. But if they did a couple of stock splits, they could. If they added Berkshire-Hathaway, the index would immediately jump 284,000 points.
So there actually IS hope that Trump's stock market performance could exceed Obama's.
   23. Morty Causa Posted: June 25, 2018 at 01:43 PM (#5699174)
If one wishes to come and stay permanently, then yes. They SHOULD have a path to full citizenship. No "coulds" about it.

It's not just about what the illegal aliens wish. What they wish doesn't have to be our command. It's also about what we, the citizens of this benighted country, wish. And this last should not, and cannot, be trumped by those who would arrogate to themselves a position of supposedly higher morality or something. It's finally a legal and political question that must be solved legally and politically by our citizens through their representatives in government. And unless we adhere to that set of dictates, we ain't got a country. What we have then is a loose confederation of people jockeying for decision-making power by short-circuiting the system through claims of higher sensibility.

I fully agree with Mr. Nieporent.
   24. BrianBrianson Posted: June 25, 2018 at 01:44 PM (#5699176)
It is strange how the DJIA has remained the daily measure for the public stock markets.


Inertia, perhaps, but unless there's an obvious or compelling articulated reason for choosing another index, I'm going to assume someone who chooses another index is cherry-picking.
   25. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 25, 2018 at 01:47 PM (#5699177)
For the 10th time, many people seeking asylum are currently allowed to legally reside and work in the country while their cases are pending.

Deliberating and repeatedly conflating illegal border crossers with other types of asylum seekers is disingenuous. Illegal border crossers have weaker claims for asylum, if any at all, and thus, not surprisingly, fail to show up at their hearing in much higher numbers. Releasing them is foolish.
   26. Greg K Posted: June 25, 2018 at 01:48 PM (#5699179)
I saw a story a day or two ago: a French citizen visiting relatives near Vancouver BC went for a jog on the beach, not carrying ID. She crossed the US border apparently without intending to, had to detour off the beach because of a rising tide, and got picked up by CPB. She was held in custody for something like two weeks before being released back into Canada. Sure seems like exercising some discretion in this case would have involved the Border Patrol guys telling her to just jog back northward, and they'd watch to make sure she left.

You're going to feel silly in the aftermath of the Franco-Canadian War of Conquest, facilitated by strategically placed teenaged agents.
   27. Zonk prescribes Rezine for TDS Posted: June 25, 2018 at 01:48 PM (#5699180)
I saw a story a day or two ago: a French citizen visiting relatives near Vancouver BC went for a jog on the beach, not carrying ID. She crossed the US border apparently without intending to, had to detour off the beach because of a rising tide, and got picked up by CPB. She was held in custody for something like two weeks before being released back into Canada. Sure seems like exercising some discretion in this case would have involved the Border Patrol guys telling her to just jog back northward, and they'd watch to make sure she left.


You're speaking about this incident...

Cedella Roman, 19, didn't know it at the time, but as she ran southeast along the beach on the evening of May 21, she crossed a municipal boundary — and, shortly after, an international border.

As the tide started to come in, she veered up and onto a dirt path before stopping to take a photo of the picturesque setting.

She turned around to head back — and that's when she was apprehended by two U.S. Border Patrol officers.

"An officer stopped me and started telling me I had crossed the border illegally," she told CBC News.

"I told him I had not done it on purpose, and that I didn't understand what was happening."

* * *
Roman, a citizen of France who had travelled to Canada to visit her mother in B.C. and work on her English, didn't have any government-issued ID or travel permits with her.

Her mother lives in North Delta, B.C.

She said the officers detained her for crossing illegally into Blaine, Wash., and transferred her more than 200 kilometres south to the Tacoma Northwest Detention Centre, run by the Department of Homeland Security.
* * *
"They put me in the caged vehicles and brought me into their facility," she said. "They asked me to remove all my personal belongings with my jewelry, they searched me everywhere.

"Then I understood it was getting very serious, and I started to cry a bit."
* * *
U.S. government documents shared with CBC News confirm Roman was discharged from the U.S. on June 6 by Immigration and Customs Enforcement.
   28. Morty Causa Posted: June 25, 2018 at 01:54 PM (#5699184)
20, 27:

Not to impugn her veracity, but you are only getting one side of the story here. As it most of the heartbreak stories that make the news. I worked for the government for ten years, and people always distort their claims to their favor. Uniformly. And you, the government official, are not allowed to engage in public rebuttal. You don't get to call them on their bullshit (if it is bullshit).

   29. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 25, 2018 at 01:57 PM (#5699185)
What's the appropriate Trumpkin response to #27?

1) "Freedom isn't free."
2) "Haw haw, big surprise, a Frenchy is running! You should be thanking us for saving your asses in WW2!"
3) "See, I told you Trump wasn't racist!"
4) "Ultimately this is Canada's fault for not marking their border better. Blame that Doonsbury guy."
   30. Zonk prescribes Rezine for TDS Posted: June 25, 2018 at 01:58 PM (#5699187)
It's not just about what the illegal aliens wish. What they wish doesn't have to be our command. It's also about what we, the citizens of this benighted country, wish. And this last should not, and cannot, be trumped by those who would arrogate to themselves a position of supposedly higher morality or something. It's finally a legal and political question that must be solved legally and politically by our citizens through their representatives in government. And unless we adhere to that set of dictates, we ain't got a country. What we have then is a loose confederation of people jockeying for decision-making power by short-circuiting the system through claims of higher sensibility.


This obscures the debate.

They aren't getting what they "wish". I would imagine that what they wish is citizenship papers dispensed via hand-towel dispensers at the border. They're obviously not getting that. And to the best of my knowledge - despite the "open borders" nonsense, I think Perros is the only one who has actually advocated for pure open borders.

Again - it's a misdemeanor. How many misdemeanors have you committed in your life? I've committed quite a few - and the overwhelming majority didn't even result in a citation/fine.

I find it wholly unconvincing when people try to claim this as some sort of weird, sole province of zero tolerate, no discretion, full enforcement of "the laws".

   31. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:01 PM (#5699189)
My only response to that above border incident is that every border patrol officer involved should be placed in solitary confinement for 30 days.
   32. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:03 PM (#5699191)
Not to impugn her veracity, but you are only getting one side of the story here.


What else do you suspect she was doing, Morty? Coming south to taint your precious Anglo blood with her Norman bastardy?
   33. Zonk prescribes Rezine for TDS Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:04 PM (#5699193)
Clapper's favorite pollster from last week has new numbers this week.

I suspect he won't be citing this one.
   34. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:05 PM (#5699194)
Again - it's a misdemeanor. How many misdemeanors have you committed in your life?


I'm personally willing to classify the continued existence of authoritarian ##### such as, as a misdemeanor. At the very least. I'm willing to escalate to gallows and firing squads relatively quickly.
   35. Morty Causa Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:05 PM (#5699195)
I think we have a de facto open borders, and those alibi-ing for that here know that and are mostly okay with it. Sure, they'd like it better if it were confirmed in law. If we just let everybody in with a cursory head check. But, except for a concerted vocal minority, the power brokers and those financing them do not to stop it. For it would be easy to do, as I've noted before. The question is, is that minority enough?

EDIT: Oh, and my blood's been tainted long ago. A lot of different which ways.
   36. dlf Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:06 PM (#5699196)
Inertia, perhaps, but unless there's an obvious or compelling articulated reason for choosing another index, I'm going to assume someone who chooses another index is cherry-picking.


I have the opposite reaction. I assume anyone who cites the DJIA, rather than the S&P or a broader index, either is cherry picking or, more generously, is simply not well informed.
   37. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:09 PM (#5699203)
I think we have a de facto open borders


If we had anything resembling open borders desperate people wouldn't risk life and limb hiking through deserts just to pick cabbage and clean your toilets.
   38. JJ1986 Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:10 PM (#5699204)
I think we have a de facto open borders, and those alibi-ing for that here know that and are mostly okay with it. Sure, they'd like it better if it were confirmed in law. If we just let everybody in with a cursory head check. But, except for a concerted vocal minority, the power brokers and those financing them do not to stop it. For it would be easy to do, as I've noted before. The question is, is that minority enough?
I'm curious, what country do you live in?
   39. Morty Causa Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:11 PM (#5699205)
What else do you suspect she was doing, Morty? Coming south to taint your precious Anglo blood with her Norman bastardy?

You always think it's an airtight case until the other side makes their case. If you guys are really interested in the truthfulness of the claims of aliens, detainees, arrestees, etc., you need to actually sit in on the hearings and read the case files. We're just a bunch of ####### amateurs here and we act and talk accordingly.
   40. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:12 PM (#5699206)
They aren't getting what they "wish".
Um, you're the one who said it. Right there in #12: Whether someone who comes to the U.S. should be allowed to stay permanently depends on whether they wish it. Not on whether they were admitted temporarily (or not admitted at all, in the case of many illegals), but whether they wish it.

Again - it's a misdemeanor. How many misdemeanors have you committed in your life? I've committed quite a few - and the overwhelming majority didn't even result in a citation/fine.
This is doubly disingenuous. First, it's only a misdemeanor the first time they're caught. It's a felony after that. Second, that's the criminal punishment placed on top of the remedy of deportation. It is not meant to be a substitute for removal.
   41. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:13 PM (#5699207)
So today Trump threatened Maxine Waters with violence in the streets from his right wing hooligans, but it would be impolite to call them fascists.
   42. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:14 PM (#5699210)
I think we have a de facto open borders, and those alibi-ing for that here know that and are mostly okay with it. Sure, they'd like it better if it were confirmed in law. If we just let everybody in with a cursory head check. But, except for a concerted vocal minority, the power brokers and those financing them do not to stop it. For it would be easy to do, as I've noted before. The question is, is that minority enough?

This is fun!

I think we have a de facto white nationalist administration, and those alibi-ing for that here know that and are mostly okay with it. Sure, they'd like it better if it were confirmed in law. But, except for a concerted vocal minority, the power brokers and those backing them do not to stop it. For it would be easy to do, as I've noted before. The question is, is that minority enough?
   43. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:14 PM (#5699211)
You always think it's an airtight case until the other side makes their case. If you guys are really interested in the truthfulness of the claims of aliens, detainees, arrestees, etc., you need to actually sit in on the hearings and read the case files.


This would imply that we continue to have hearings and trials for their cases. Which is precisely what Dear Leader Drumpf wants to eliminate.
   44. BrianBrianson Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:15 PM (#5699213)
I think we have a de facto open borders, and those alibi-ing for that here know that and are mostly okay with it.


Err, definitely not. Paperwork/Regulation-wise, it's functionally impossible for my wife to work here as a J-2 (her actual visa). Fortunately (I guess), we have a pre-school age rugrat, and thus can justify our situation to ourselves. Maybe if she wanted to do yardwork for $20/day, I suppose.
   45. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:18 PM (#5699215)
Still waiting for David to respond to #7 above.
   46. Swoboda is freedom Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:20 PM (#5699219)
What's the appropriate Trumpkin response to #27?

1) "Freedom isn't free."
2) "Haw haw, big surprise, a Frenchy is running! You should be thanking us for saving your asses in WW2!"
3) "See, I told you Trump wasn't racist!"
4) "Ultimately this is Canada's fault for not marking their border better. Blame that Doonsbury guy."


Unfortunately 3 doesn't work as she is black French.
   47. Count Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:21 PM (#5699220)
I’m under the impression this distinction between border crossers and others who merely fly in without papers or overstay visas is a rationalization of a deliberatel cruel separation policy. I believe (on phone so hard to check) that to even get to the stage where there are asylum proceedings people need to show a border agent they have a credible fear of persecution. That screens claims if you are so worried about people invoking their right to try to get asylum. And there are ways to track people who seem to be flight risks (with ankle monitors being particularly restrictive, and high touch case management being preferable), and you have shown no public safety risk from asylum seekers being released during the years their claims are pending. I assume that you don’t agree with the President that there should be (illegally) zero process for people seeking asylum?
   48. Morty Causa Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:21 PM (#5699223)
We as a country should get to decide who comes and who doesn't. And the will of its citizens should prevail as to what the country does. The alien's wishes and rights are beside the point, except to the extent he is conferred with any through expressed law (and back to citizens of the country).
   49. Zonk prescribes Rezine for TDS Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:23 PM (#5699226)
Not to impugn her veracity, but you are only getting one side of the story here. As it most of the heartbreak stories that make the news. I worked for the government for ten years, and people always distort their claims to their favor. Uniformly. And you, the government official, are not allowed to engage in public rebuttal. You don't get to call them on their bullshit (if it is bullshit).


I'm sure.

You worked in the area of social security claims, if I'm remembering right?

I'm certainly well aware that it's a hotbed of bad claims... Indeed, I've got a ne'er do well uncle that I'm fairly sure is living on SSDI via a fraudulent claim (in that, I know he's on 'disability' - and I'm pretty sure it's bad a claim successfully spun).

So... what's the solution? Spend money on investigators and monitoring to find out for sure? There are limits to the efficiency and efficacy of that.

I suppose one might say that I should drop dime, but it's not like I'm familiar enough with the claim to say for sure... and I'm generally not a big fan of going to the authorities on relatives, even the ones I don't particularly like. I mean, obviously - there are situations where I would... but the guy basically got cut out of my grandparents will for no shortage of malfeasance while they were alive, he's supposedly got a prescription drug problem, and his life - even living off ill-gotten income - isn't one I'd want.
   50. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:27 PM (#5699228)
We as a country should get to decide who comes and who doesn't.

And when we get a president and Congress that reflects the immigration preferences of our country as seen in one poll after another---granting a path to citizenship for illegal aliens who've established roots here and can meet certain conditions---I'm sure you'll be fine with that.
   51. Morty Causa Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:29 PM (#5699231)
I think we have a de facto white nationalist administration, and those alibi-ing for that here know that and are mostly okay with it. Sure, they'd like it better if it were confirmed in law. But, except for a concerted vocal minority, the power brokers and those backing them do not stop it. For it would be easy to do, as I've noted before. The question is, is that minority enough?

I’ll play along (to the extent I can machete my way through the thick underbrush of labored sarcasm). You can think that and you can vote accordingly. And so can they. Then what, G.I.? Will you go along with the result, will stop sub rosa condoning the sabotaging of law?
   52. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:30 PM (#5699232)
Again - it's a misdemeanor. How many misdemeanors have you committed in your life? I've committed quite a few - and the overwhelming majority didn't even result in a citation/fine.

Zonk may be well well ahead of the average illegal border crosser in criminal activity, but he's wrong on the law, and missing the point. In some cases, illegally crossing the border is a felony, generally when attempting to re-enter after being previously deported under various circumstances. More importantly, that illegal border crossing are usually prosecuted as misdemeanors just indicates that deporting, rather than imprisoning, those illegal aliens is the priority. That it's "only a misdemeanor" is reason to make sure the deportation process works, not dispense with it.

EDIT: A legally imported beverage to the second half of #40.
   53. Count Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:30 PM (#5699233)
Responding to JE’s question from last thread, I don’t think I would deport the guy who delivered pizza to a base just because the way he got caught is so gross, but that’s not really a justifiable standard. I feel bad for people caught overstaying their visas particularly if they have family here but in general I think it’s fair game to deport them, I would just make it very low priority for non-criminals (including the people DN is happy to deport who have a 20-year-old DUI) and also favor a path to citizenship etc for people who have been here for a while. In any event we don’t have an immigration crisis right now, we have a “a racist wannabe authoritarian is president and his party will support any cruelty directed towards brown people to own the libs” crisis, and the conversation should start with that framework.
   54. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:33 PM (#5699235)
Then what, G.I.? Will you go along with the result, will stop sub rosa condoning the sabotaging of law?


Nope. A law built for and run by fascists deserves no quarter. We're not all authoritarian lickspittles, son.
   55. Zonk prescribes Rezine for TDS Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:33 PM (#5699236)
We as a country should get to decide who comes and who doesn't. And the will of its citizens should prevail as to what the country does. The alien's wishes and rights are beside the point, except to the extent he is conferred with any through expressed law (and back to citizens of the country).


The problem is that it's not "we as a country"... at the moment, it's a very loud and vocal minority that is making the all decisions and has shown itself to be completely unwilling to accept even the slightest compromise with the rest of the "we".

The tipping point was almost certainly the 2013 immigration bill. It had - albeit slim - polling majorities in favor. It passed the Senate with supermajorities. Had it gotten a floor vote, it almost certainly would have passed the House with ease.

Since then, the ever-louder minority that sunk that effort has increasingly refused any semblance of "we".

Immigration polling has clearly and consistently moved towards a liberalization of the matter. Even the 'Trump spike' against is still a good 10-15 points off prior highs.

If it's really we - then it really needs to be WE.
   56. Morty Causa Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:34 PM (#5699237)
And when we get a president and Congress that reflects the immigration preferences of our country as seen in one poll after another---granting a path to citizenship for illegal aliens who've established roots here and can meet certain conditions---I'm sure you'll be fine with that.

Government by poll? I didn't vote for Trump and I wouldn't vote for him if a cross between one of those hillbilly degenerates and Al Sharpton were running against him, but he won, and he's not obligated to execute his duties according to your polls. Vote him out. Impeach him. Have some respect for the system. Should be easy--after all, you and many like you laughed heartily at his chances of winning. Even betting money, I understand.
   57. Eric L Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:35 PM (#5699238)
I live close on the Mexican border. Border patrol and ICE are near daily
realities here. The border is "open" in the same way we are free
to murder, rape, and steal. Some get caught and some don't.
   58. Eric L Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:36 PM (#5699241)
Furthermore, when I follow the national debate, I get a
wrong end of the telescope sensation.
   59. Zonk prescribes Rezine for TDS Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:38 PM (#5699242)
Um, you're the one who said it. Right there in #12: Whether someone who comes to the U.S. should be allowed to stay permanently depends on whether they wish it. Not on whether they were admitted temporarily (or not admitted at all, in the case of many illegals), but whether they wish it.


In a world where the concept of "how" doesn't exist, I guess. I mean, I can't speak for them - but I feel pretty certain that if their "wish", it would be different.

This is doubly disingenuous. First, it's only a misdemeanor the first time they're caught. It's a felony after that. Second, that's the criminal punishment placed on top of the remedy of deportation. It is not meant to be a substitute for removal.


Zonk may be well well ahead of the average illegal border crosser in criminal activity, but he's wrong on the law, and missing the point. In some cases, illegally crossing the border is a felony, generally when attempting to re-enter after being previously deported under various circumstances. More importantly, that illegal border crossing are usually prosecuted as misdemeanors just indicates that deporting, rather than imprisoning, those illegal aliens is the priority. That it's "only a misdemeanor" is reason to make sure the deportation process works, not to dispense with it.


Yes, yes... the point is clear.

The letter of the law sometimes matters.

And sometimes it does not.
   60. Count Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:39 PM (#5699243)
DN and YV are correct that while illegal entry is a misdemeanor, illegal re-entry is a felony. They are different crimes. I do not know what their point is, though. The trump administration is choosing to prosecute people for illegal entry because that’s what they are alleging the people are doing- is there any indication they are charging people with illegal entry instead of illegal re-entry when that charge is available? YC and DN are also correct that you don’t have to charge people with illegal entry at all to deport them, which supports the proposition that the zero tolerance policy is unnecessary and deliberately cruel.
   61. Zonk prescribes Rezine for TDS Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:39 PM (#5699244)
Government by poll? I didn't vote for Trump and I wouldn't vote for him if a cross between one of those hillbilly degenerates and Al Sharpton were running against him, but he won, and he's not obligated to execute his duties according to your polls. Vote him out. Should be easy--after all, you and many like you laughed heartily at his chances of winning. Even betting money, I understand.


But this undercuts your "we" argument.

Either it's "we" or it's "they".

You cannot have it both ways.
   62. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:41 PM (#5699246)
I hope - assuming there isn't some stunning claim and vindication for the writer who it turns out never slept with either - that very high-level journalists call this out. this is the kind of thing that radicals on both sides believe actually happens. I believe it remains rare - but downplaying it is not a good look.
Howie - does this sentiment also apply to Fox news hosts?
   63. Zonk prescribes Rezine for TDS Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:45 PM (#5699249)
Just to reiterate from above - I know people don't read links - a more complete post on 33 above...

115. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:07 PM (#5694641)
Gallup: Trump Job Approval Rating At 45%, Tying His Personal Best:


Gallup: Trump’s Net Disapproval Spikes Amid Criticism Of Family Separations

According to Gallup, Americans who approved of Trump’s performance in office dropped from 45 to 41 percent between Sunday, June 17 and Sunday, June 24.

Over the same period, Trump’s disapproval number went from 50 to 55 percent.


Fun while it lasted!
   64. Morty Causa Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:46 PM (#5699250)
Again - it's a misdemeanor. How many misdemeanors have you committed in your life?

For most, adults if not children, that misdemeanor comes ensconced in fraud and some form of identity theft. To work, you have to have a social security card. How do you get one if you're an illegal alien?
   65. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:50 PM (#5699254)
but he won, and he's not obligated to execute his duties according to your polls.


But he is obligated, if not by law, then by custom and basic decency, to be president of all Americans, not just the minority of Americans that got him elected.
   66. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:53 PM (#5699256)
For most, adults if not children, that misdemeanor comes ensconced in fraud and some form of identity theft.


This has literally nothing to do with the current human rights crimes committed at the border.
   67. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:53 PM (#5699257)
To work, you have to have a social security card. How do you get one if you're an illegal alien?


ITIN

The Individual Tax Identification Number (ITIN) is a tax processing number issued by the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) to ensure that people – including unauthorized immigrants – pay taxes even if they do not have a Social Security number and regardless of their immigration status.
   68. Lassus Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:54 PM (#5699259)
What else do you suspect she was doing, Morty? Coming south to taint your precious Anglo blood with her Norman bastardy?

Nah, too old for Morty.

EDIT: WAY too old.
   69. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:56 PM (#5699261)
It passed the Senate with supermajorities. Had it gotten a floor vote, it almost certainly would have passed the House with ease.

That's incorrect. Even members of the Gang of 8 indicated that they expected the House to approve a bill with more restrictions, setting up a House-Senate conference bill somewhere in the middle. The problem was that once the provisions of the Senate bill became more widely known, support for it plummeted. Those insisting that the old Senate bill sets the floor on what is acceptable are trying to leverage a brief partial victory that they couldn't replicate today. It's a different Senate, and a different House, neither of which are bound by a previously failed bill, and if left to their own devices would produce more restrictive legislation, or no legislation if Senate Democrats filibuster anything more restrictive than the prior Gang of 8 provisions.
   70. BDC Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:57 PM (#5699263)
Most high-profile policy initiatives are done as much from political calculation as from genuine problem-solving exigency. But the Trump immigration initiatives seem more than usually for political show. They've invented a problem, they're addressing symptoms of the invented problem at that, and they're demonizing minorities in a nativist fashion that is, unfortunately, not new in America by a long shot. All this to grapple Know-Nothing voters to themselves with hoops of steel.

I reckon we'll see how this plays out at the polls, but no matter your sympathies, you have to say that the whole "separating children from parents" affair has been one of the mighty bad PR calculations in living memory.
   71. Zonk prescribes Rezine for TDS Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:57 PM (#5699264)
For most, adults if not children, that misdemeanor comes ensconced in fraud and some form of identity theft. To work, you have to have a social security card. How do you get one if you're an illegal alien?


Setting aside that I don't think this is true (yes, yes - it would just be a different type of fraud to forge other types of permits) -

I think we both know plenty of employers - especially temporary/seasonal employers - are also supposed to getting EIN numbers, filing appropriate documentation with federal and state agencies, withholding, conform to wage laws, UI, etc, etc.

So - we're back to the same zero tolerance vs 'some' tolerance issue.
   72. Morty Causa Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:58 PM (#5699265)
So... what's the solution? Spend money on investigators and monitoring to find out for sure? There are limits to the efficiency and efficacy of that.

Yes. We show our grudge against bureaucratic government by making them do their stuff on the cheap. And you get what you pay for. But, my point was that a government official can't engage publicly in discussing people's claims. That gives the person complaining an advantage at the start.

For years, the Social Security and IRS computers have interfaced. An employer could determine if a card and number are valid almost instantaneously. And it would thus be pretty easy to set up a prima facie case for fraud and identity theft.
   73. Zonk prescribes Rezine for TDS Posted: June 25, 2018 at 02:59 PM (#5699267)
That's incorrect. Even members of the Gang of 8 indicated that they expected the House to approve a bill with more restrictions, setting up a House-Senate conference bill somewhere in the middle. The problem was that once the provisions of the Senate bill became more widely known, support for it plummeted. Those insisting that the old Senate bill sets the floor on what is acceptable are trying to leverage a brief partial victory that they couldn't replicate today. It's a different Senate, and a different House, neither of which are bound by a previously failed bill, and if left to their own devices would produce more restrictive legislation, or no legislation if Senate Democrats filibuster anything more restrictive than the prior Gang of 8 provisions.


It'll be a different House in about 6 months, too.

I'm sure your opinions on the wisdom of the majority will remain as unbendable as they are today, right?
   74. Morty Causa Posted: June 25, 2018 at 03:00 PM (#5699268)
But he is obligated, if not by law, then by custom and basic decency, to be president of all Americans, not just the minority of Americans that got him elected.

Please, it is to laugh.
   75. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 25, 2018 at 03:00 PM (#5699269)
I reckon we'll see how this plays out at the polls, but no matter your sympathies, you have to say that the whole "separating children from parents" affair has been one of the mighty bad PR calculations in living memory.


I'm not sure it's lost them a single vote. Name a single Trump partisan here or anywhere else that has seen this atrocity - seen them literally putting children into concentration camps - and changed their mind. Jason, Clapper, Ray... Not a waiver among them. They either agree with the evil, or don't care, which is evil in its own right.
   76. Morty Causa Posted: June 25, 2018 at 03:01 PM (#5699270)
67:

You really think those who sneak across the order are getting these?
   77. Lassus Posted: June 25, 2018 at 03:04 PM (#5699274)
Name a single Trump partisan here or anywhere else that has seen this atrocity - seen them literally putting children into concentration camps - and changed their mind. Jason, Clapper, Ray... Not a waiver among them.

Could be worse, under Hillary they'd have ended up on Mars in sex camps.
   78. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 25, 2018 at 03:05 PM (#5699275)
That's incorrect. Even members of the Gang of 8 indicated that they expected the House to approve a bill with more restrictions, setting up a House-Senate conference bill somewhere in the middle. The problem was that once the provisions of the Senate bill became more widely known, support for it plummeted. Those insisting that the old Senate bill sets the floor on what is acceptable are trying to leverage a brief partial victory that they couldn't replicate today. It's a different Senate, and a different House, neither of which are bound by a previously failed bill, and if left to their own devices would produce more restrictive legislation, or no legislation if Senate Democrats filibuster anything more restrictive than the prior Gang of 8 provisions.

It'll be a different House in about 6 months, too. I'm sure your opinions on the wisdom of the majority will remain as unbendable as they are today, right?

Concession noted. The new House will be as empowered to legislate as the old one, regardless of my thoughts on the wisdom of their legislation. I wouldn't make any assumptions about the composition of that House yet.
   79. BDC Posted: June 25, 2018 at 03:05 PM (#5699278)
I'm not sure it's lost them a single vote. Name a single Trump partisan here or anywhere else that has seen this atrocity - seen them literally putting children into concentration camps - and changed their mind

Oh, I agree with that, and I think that the gleeful bullying of kids has even strengthened support for Trump among deplorables. But there is still some sort of center in this country, and as zonk's poll numbers in #63 may suggest, it's not playing well to the center. If it were, Trump wouldn't have (however nominally) reversed himself.
   80. Morty Causa Posted: June 25, 2018 at 03:07 PM (#5699280)
My impression, and I live in Trump country, is that those who see Trump as the leader on the white horse, blame the parent(s). Hey, they say, we don't decide whether to punish lawbreakers by considering how it affects the children. That's an unavoidable consequence of the parent doing wrong.
   81. Zonk prescribes Rezine for TDS Posted: June 25, 2018 at 03:13 PM (#5699291)
Yes. We show our grudge against bureaucratic government by making them do their stuff on the cheap. And you get what you pay for. But, my point was that a government official can't engage publicly in discussing people's claims. That gives the person complaining an advantage at the start.

For years, the Social Security and IRS computers have interfaced. An employer could determine if a card and number are valid almost instantaneously. And it would thus be pretty easy to set up a prima facie case for fraud and identity theft.


Again with the "we" :-)

To be honest, I don't totally dismiss the idea that some of it is a "grudge against bureaucratic government"... But - in fact, I think there's a more insidious problem:

Demonization. Some areas of government benefit abuse draw outrage ('welfare') because long-term, rhetorical politicization has declared the beneficiaries the 'wrong' kind... some don't (SSDI).

In any case, just to burnish my compromise bona fides -- I'm OK with the expansion and broader requirement of the fed's employment verification system.... let's not pretend we don't both know who opposes it, or more accurately - has exercised the lobbying power in opposition.

To be clear - it's not a particular priority of mine... but in the spirit of compromise, it is on the wishlist of the immigration hardliners in the "Freedom caucus".

So - I'd be willing to offer that concession for those folks in a grand bargain. Now... what do I get in exchange?
   82. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 25, 2018 at 03:14 PM (#5699292)
My impression, and I live in Trump country, is that those who see Trump as the leader on the white horse, blame the parent(s).


And those people must be eliminated.
   83. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 25, 2018 at 03:17 PM (#5699297)
You really think those who sneak across the order are getting these?


Concession accepted.
   84. Zonk prescribes Rezine for TDS Posted: June 25, 2018 at 03:18 PM (#5699298)
My impression, and I live in Trump country, is that those who see Trump as the leader on the white horse, blame the parent(s). Hey, they say, we don't decide whether to punish lawbreakers by considering how it affects the children. That's an unavoidable consequence of the parent doing wrong.


I just think that's messed up.

I'm not even a parent, but even as a non-parent - I don't find it particularly difficult to understand the difference between fleeing violence (whether it's government-sponsored or not) to get my kids TFO, even if GTFO means breaking other laws.
   85. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 25, 2018 at 03:20 PM (#5699299)
Hey, they say, we don't decide whether to punish lawbreakers by considering how it affects the children.


Actually, we do.
   86. Zonk prescribes Rezine for TDS Posted: June 25, 2018 at 03:24 PM (#5699304)
Concession noted. The new House will be as empowered to legislate as the old one, regardless of my thoughts on the wisdom of their legislation. I wouldn't make any assumptions about the composition of that House yet.


My bet is still on the table.

FTR - I don't support a Democratic House legislating only and solely via the Hastert Rule (again, the majority-majority one... not the don't tell anyone that I molested you one).

Generally speaking, it goes without saying that I obviously expect a Democratic house to pursue legislative solutions that appeal to majorities of the caucus... but I also won't be giving Raúl Grijalva or Luis Gutiérrez (or, I guess, Chuy Garcia since I think Luis has his eyes on Rahm's job) sole veto power.

   87. Moeball Posted: June 25, 2018 at 03:26 PM (#5699306)
Krauthammer thought baseball was a relief from the petty arguments of politics? He obviously didn't know about us BBTF primates! I wonder if he was a "never DHer"?
   88. Zonk prescribes Rezine for TDS Posted: June 25, 2018 at 03:28 PM (#5699307)
Erik Prince in the crosshairs... Wonder if he also committed the same perjury with Mueller as he did before congress?
   89. Morty Causa Posted: June 25, 2018 at 03:30 PM (#5699310)
It's rather facile to claim you're fleeing violence after you are apprehended for crossing the border illegally.

But, you know, even so, I'm not all that keen on indiscriminate and promiscuous giving of blanket asylum for this reason. Fight the despotism. That's how countries change. I just don't see why we should have the absolute and absolutely open-ended obligation to be the dumping ground for those who suffer misfortune. I know this makes me hard-hearted. The first obligation of a state and its citizen is to see that it is a stable and orderly context for people to live and thrive in.
   90. Morty Causa Posted: June 25, 2018 at 03:31 PM (#5699311)
83:

Maybe I misread your proposition and what you mean by it. What is it I am conceding?
   91. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 25, 2018 at 03:33 PM (#5699313)

67:

You really think those who sneak across the order are getting these?
I know firsthand that they are. Not remotely all of them, of course. Many work off the books entirely. Others use someone else's number (typically a family member) with consent. Others buy one off the street, where it may be completely fake or it may match someone else's. (The Supreme Court ruled unanimously in 2009 that this does not constitute identity theft under federal law, btw.)
   92. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 25, 2018 at 03:34 PM (#5699314)
What is it I am conceding?


That you were wrong that illegals need a SS number to work and the only way to get this is through fraud, and therefore illegals commit more crimes than just crossing the border illegally.
   93. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 25, 2018 at 03:36 PM (#5699316)
It's rather facile to claim you're fleeing violence after you are apprehended for crossing the border illegally.


Um, to whom are they supposed to make the claim prior to being apprehended?
   94. Zonk prescribes Rezine for TDS Posted: June 25, 2018 at 03:36 PM (#5699317)
But, you know, even so, I'm not all that keen on indiscriminate and promiscuous giving of blanket asylum for this reason. Fight the despotism. That's how countries change. I just don't see why we should have the absolute and absolutely open-ended obligation to be the dumping ground for those who suffer misfortune. I know this makes me hard-hearted. The first obligation of a state and its citizen is to see that it is a stable and orderly context for people to live and thrive in.


Some people value their family more than they do their government. It's not like such has never been the case in the US, either - going back to the Revolutionary War, when there was no shortage of sunshine patriots.

In fact, as I said last week - if you actually want to curtail the violence in the places these folks are fleeing, it's probably even better to keep the dreaded MS-13 folks in our jails than it is just to ship them home. I'd very much prefer the US didn't have a for-profit incarceration industry, together with corresponding give-aways to build ever more prisons and pretend like we're beset by lawlessness requiring ever-more law enforcement.... but that's not going to change any time soon, so frankly - it probably makes for a better investment to put it to use.
   95. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 25, 2018 at 03:36 PM (#5699318)
The Supreme Court issued opinions on two cases today: (1) holding that American Express' anti-steering provisions didn't violate federal anti-trust laws; and (2) largely upholding the Texas Congressional and legislative redistricting on a racial gerrymandering challenge. This was originally the last day the Court was scheduled to be in session, but 4 cases remain and are expected to be addressed tomorrow. A retirement by any Justice would presumably be announced at the end of the Court's term or within a day or two.
   96. Zonk prescribes Rezine for TDS Posted: June 25, 2018 at 03:37 PM (#5699319)
I know firsthand that they are. Not remotely all of them, of course. Many work off the books entirely. Others use someone else's number (typically a family member) with consent. Others buy one off the street, where it may be completely fake or it may match someone else's. (The Supreme Court ruled unanimously in 2009 that this does not constitute identity theft under federal law, btw.)


Do you support zero tolerance for those that hire them?
   97. Morty Causa Posted: June 25, 2018 at 03:38 PM (#5699320)
I know firsthand that they are. Not remotely all of them, of course. Many work off the books entirely. Others use someone else's number (typically a family member) with consent. Others buy one off the street, where it may be completely fake or it may match someone else's. (The Supreme Court ruled unanimously in 2009 that this does not constitute identity theft under federal law, btw.)

I'll concede this, with all its qualifications.
   98. Morty Causa Posted: June 25, 2018 at 03:43 PM (#5699323)
Some people value their family more than they do their government. It's not like such has never been the case in the US, either - going back to the Revolutionary War, when there was no shortage of sunshine patriots.

Life is hard and it is rife with hard choices. That doesn't make the USA the guarantor of everyone in the world's rights.
   99. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 25, 2018 at 03:43 PM (#5699324)
Some people value their family more than they do their government.


When white people do this, it's just good old family values. Written large, it becomes the nativist white nationalism that drives the Trump GOP.
   100. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: June 25, 2018 at 03:47 PM (#5699327)
That doesn't make the USA the guarantor of everyone in the world's rights.


Not all of us are willing to punt the fight so easily.
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