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Monday, May 14, 2018

OTP 2018 May 14: Political leadership, fans needed to bring baseball to Portland: Guest opinion

Today I’m not writing to promote the virtues of Major League Baseball or Portland as a baseball city. I’m writing from the perspective of one who worked on the last successful effort to bring a professional sports team to town—the Portland Timbers—and as someone who has worked in state and local politics for nearly 30 years. Few situations are fraught with as much politics as bringing a professional sports team to a community. If you look closely at cities that have experienced these debates, you’ll often find a combustible mix of political, financial and cultural issues that run deep and can linger for years.

 

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 14, 2018 at 07:28 AM | 1370 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: boondoggle, new stadium, off topic, politics, portland

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   101. Stormy JE Posted: May 14, 2018 at 02:27 PM (#5672010)
I mean, that's why Israel should be especially motivated to avoid these kinds of things. The Troubles weren't resolved by stomping the IRA into submission. Sinn Fein was legitimized and disconnected from the IRA. The same will eventually have to happen with Hamas, but actions like these only embolden and empower the militant wings.
Oh dear. Whose turn is it to patiently explain to shippie here that the most devastating terror attacks to strike Israel took place in the aftermath of the Oslo Accords signing? Some 269 Israelis were killed between September 1993 and September 2000.
   102. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 14, 2018 at 02:28 PM (#5672011)
What are Israel’s borders

Whatever they say they are. Might makes right after all.


The majority of historical Palenstine's borders are now Syria and Jordan. Not much agitation for the return of those sacred lands. Probably because the rulers of those countries don't hesitate to slaughter the opposition.
   103. perros Posted: May 14, 2018 at 02:31 PM (#5672015)
Maybe explain again why Hamas is trying to destroy the principal cargo crossing (which is how goods are delivered to Gaza residents) and breach Israel's borders?

Ah, nevermind.
   104. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 14, 2018 at 02:31 PM (#5672017)
The move of the embassy is political theater. Nothing more.

In the absence of that move, Hamas would still be pushing these protests.

Gaza is a hopeless shitshow. We didn't need to move the Embassy to encourage these demonstrations-cum-border attacks.

With Hamas in charge, Gaza does nothing but breed desperation. They will keep coming, because why not? What else is there but to demonstrate and to attack?

They will keep coming, keep building tunnels, keep attacking the border fence, and Israel will continue to defend its borders.

When everything completely breaks down, some kind of massive epidemic will probably sweep Gaza. Horror will be heaped upon horror. And the world will watch and do nothing.

Unless it gets swept up in an Iranian-Israeli war sweeping down from Syria.

Either way, maybe the survivors will be able to build something at that point, other than tunnels and rockets.

And here I thought I was the one most in despair of any real solution. But it appears we have a new contender.
   105. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 14, 2018 at 02:33 PM (#5672018)
Playing spin the bottle with your first cousins back in the early 80s


Your childhood in Brooklyn wasn't brought up.
   106. Stormy JE Posted: May 14, 2018 at 02:34 PM (#5672020)
Given the significant disparities in military capabilities, it would seem like a sound defeat of Hamas ought to be relatively easy to accomplish.

So what's taking so long?
If Israel were held to the same standard as Russia vis-a-vis Chechnya, Hamas would have been wiped off the map within days. And as someone on Twitter put it earlier, Tel Aviv's suburbs today would stretch all the way to Damascus.
   107. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: May 14, 2018 at 02:34 PM (#5672021)
Fox News host Jeanine Pirro on her show, two days ago:
"Donald Trump recognized history. He, like King Cyrus before him, fulfilled the Biblical prophecy of the God worshipped by Jews, Christians and, yes, Muslims, that Jerusalem is the eternal capital of the Jewish state, and that the Jewish people finally deserve a righteous, free and sovereign Israel."
Does this mean we can replace the played-out "Clown Hitler" with "Clown Cyrus the Great"?
   108. SY Ruined School Lunches! Posted: May 14, 2018 at 02:35 PM (#5672022)
If Israel wants its borders respected, say what they are and stop letting people settle outside them. It’s a farce otherwise.
   109. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: May 14, 2018 at 02:35 PM (#5672023)
If Israel were held to the same standard as Russia vis-a-vis Chechnya, Hamas would have been wiped off the map. And as someone on Twitter put it earlier, Tel Aviv's suburbs would stretch all the way to Damascus.


It's unclear whether you're saying this is a good thing or a bad thing.

Can you clarify?
   110. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: May 14, 2018 at 02:37 PM (#5672024)
Israel: at least we aren't Russia in Chechnya.

Makes me sick on a day over 40 Palestinians were killed that JE is lamenting that they can't just MOAB the desert and build over the rivers of blood.
   111. perros Posted: May 14, 2018 at 02:38 PM (#5672026)
this thread will be full of honest justifications of snipers killing women and children all day.

The question is what now counts as war as opposed to non-war, and when are women and children (and other civilians) off-limits and when are they not? What you get in colonial (non)warfare is the right of the colonizer to kill whoever it pleases by the usual means of war, while the colonized are not allowed to strike at the colonizer at all, by any means, even as meager as throwing rocks.
   112. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: May 14, 2018 at 02:39 PM (#5672028)
The question is what now coumts as war as opposed to non-war, and when are women and children (and other civilians) off-limits and when,are they not? What you get in colonial (non)warfare is the right of the colonizer to kill whoever it pleases by the usual means of war, while the colonized are not allowed to strike at the colinizer at all, by any means, even as meager as throwing rocks.


They pray four times a day, they pray five
Who ways is strange when it's time to survive
Some will go of they own free will to die
Others take them with you when they blow sky high
What's the difference? All you get is lost children
While the bosses sit up behind the desks, it cost billions
To blast humans in half, into calves and arms
Only one side is allowed to have bombs
It's like making a soldier drop his weapon
Shooting him, and telling him to get to stepping
Obviously, they came to portion up his fortune
Sounds to me like that old robbery/extortion
   113. Stormy JE Posted: May 14, 2018 at 02:40 PM (#5672030)
It's unclear whether you're saying this is a good thing or a bad thing.

Can you clarify?
A good thing. If X declares its intention to commit genocide and then proceeds to go to war, but loses, X shouldn't get to call for a do-over.
   114. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 14, 2018 at 02:42 PM (#5672031)

If Israel wants its borders respected, say what they are and stop letting people settle outside them. It’s a farce otherwise.
Israel withdraw from Gaza 13 years ago, and said very clearly what those borders were. It's Hamas that won't respect them.
   115. Stormy JE Posted: May 14, 2018 at 02:43 PM (#5672033)
Makes me sick on a day over 40 Palestinians were killed that JE is lamenting that they can't just MOAB the desert and build over the rivers of blood.
Never said that. Try again?
   116. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: May 14, 2018 at 02:43 PM (#5672034)
A good thing. If X declares its intention to commit genocide and then proceeds to go to war, but loses, X shouldn't get to call for a do-over.


Well there it is. Sickening. Forever Justified.
   117. perros Posted: May 14, 2018 at 02:46 PM (#5672036)

Makes me sick on a day over 40 Palestinians were killed that JE is lamenting that they can't just MOAB the desert and build over the rivers of blood.


You think you've heard it all before
Well here's once more
We're all at war
Blood in the streets an eternal river
I know the killer
He counts my silver
   118. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 14, 2018 at 02:49 PM (#5672038)
You keep lamenting that the attackers - who you are "not a fan of" - are getting killed. Perhaps you should advise them to stop their attacks?

I'll be glad to tell them that for both moral and political reasons, they should stick with nonviolent protests. Do you have the name and number of someone I could reach with this advice?

I don't mean to come down too hard because you're only guilty of separating any issue on the planet from Trump


Apparently you missed what I wrote in #73. Trump was responsible for the actual move of the embassy, but he had plenty of Democratic enablers who had equally (non-) compelling domestic political reasons.

and a generous dose of naivete. Israel's liquidation was in Hamas' charter on day one and has never been repudiated. There's not a prayer of hope until Hamas is soundly defeated.

Hamas first came into existence in 1987. Between 1948 and 1973 Israel had had to contend with four wars in order to establish and then confirm its basic existence. If you think that eliminating Hamas is going to bring about a permanent peace between Israel and the Palestinians, I'm not sure I'm the one who's being naive. That sort of wishful thinking is the flip side of the equally farfetched thought that peace could be achieved if the Israelis simply withdrew to their 1967 borders.

Again, pardon my cynicism, but it's a cynicism built on an observation of an ongoing tragedy of 70 years and counting. I have no idea how to solve this issue, but neither does anyone else.
   119. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 14, 2018 at 02:51 PM (#5672039)
P. S. What in the hell does ".pilF" mean?
   120. Stormy JE Posted: May 14, 2018 at 02:55 PM (#5672044)
Hamas first came into existence in 1987. Between 1948 and 1973 Israel had had to contend with four wars in order to establish and then confirm its basic existence. If you think that eliminating Hamas is going to bring about a permanent peace between Israel and the Palestinians, I'm not sure I'm the one who's being naive. That sort of wishful thinking is the flip side of the equally farfetched thought that peace could be achieved if the Israelis simply withdrew to their 1967 borders.

Again, pardon my cynicism, but it's a cynicism built on an observation of an ongoing tragedy of 70 years and counting. I have no idea how to solve this issue, but neither does anyone else.
Except I didn't say peace was likely once Hamas was defeated, only that we would then have a modicum of hope.

Israel's challenges with terrorism prior to the rise of Hamas and other militant Islamic entities in the 1980s had much to do with Arab nationalism and its uncompromising position on the Jewish State. Now that Israel's relations with the Arab world have improved markedly, one may argue that knocking out Hamas will ultimately result in the rise of true moderates inside the West Bank and Gaza.
   121. Count Posted: May 14, 2018 at 02:56 PM (#5672048)
They knew the demonstrations were coming and they stuck with live ammunition because they don’t value Palestinian lives. It’s disgusting. Can’t see any hope there until Netanyahu is gone (probably need change in Palestinian leadership for real peace, too, but I’m hoping a different Israeli PM would at least not be committed to sabotaging peace deal and have some sense of restraint when it comes to shooting protestors).

   122. Stormy JE Posted: May 14, 2018 at 02:58 PM (#5672049)
P. S. What in the hell does ".pilF" mean?
Seriously? (elims)
   123. BDC Posted: May 14, 2018 at 02:58 PM (#5672051)
P. S. What in the hell does ".pilF" mean?

.sdrawkcab ti daeR
   124. Stormy JE Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:02 PM (#5672053)
They knew the demonstrations were coming and they stuck with live ammunition because they don’t value Palestinian lives.
Let's ask again: What do you think Hamas was hoping to accomplish by having 50,000 "protestors" breach the border crossing, both above and beneath the ground?
   125. perros Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:04 PM (#5672055)
As noted in #15, the embassy move enjoys wide, bipartisan support - Schumer Applauds Embassy Move To Jerusalem:
In a rare moment of agreement with President Trump, Senate Minority Leader Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) on Monday

We took a solemn vow walking down the aisle 'til death do us part.

Forever hold your peace.
   126. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:06 PM (#5672056)
P. S. What in the hell does ".pilF" mean?

.sdrawkcab ti daeR


Ah, I see: "It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide." Thank God for online translators.
   127. Count Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:11 PM (#5672058)
I imagine Hamas was trying to get the world on their side by showing a murderous and unjustified Israeli response, and they succeeded. This is like when an unarmed photographer was killed a couple weeks ago and Israel responded that the man was in Hamas. Even if true, that has no bearing on whether the killing was justified.
   128. Count Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:12 PM (#5672059)
I didn’t get the .pilf thing until now either, and now it seems so obvious.
   129. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:12 PM (#5672060)
New Gallup Presidential Job Approval poll out today, and it looks like Trump's best net result this year from Gallup. Still not great (-9%), but a 14% net gain since his January low. The significance will depend on the trend over the next 6 months, not where he was previously, or even today. Trump continues to do significantly better on the Job Approval for the Economy polls (~ +7%), so expect that area to be emphasized by the GOP, while minimized by the Democrats.
   130. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:17 PM (#5672063)
Trump continues to do significantly better on the Job Approval for the Economy polls (~ +7%), so expect that area to be emphasized by the GOP, while minimized by the Democrats.


Gas Prices Rise to Highest Level In 3 Years

CBS News: “You may have noticed, gas prices are on the rise and hitting levels not seen in more than three years. Gas prices nationwide are up a nickel in just the last week. That’s 20 cents in the last month, according to AAA.”

EDIT: Want lay a wager as to what will happen to Health Insurance premiums, released shortly before the election? I'll take high, higher, and highest.
   131. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:19 PM (#5672065)
Hamas first came into existence in 1987. Between 1948 and 1973 Israel had had to contend with four wars in order to establish and then confirm its basic existence. If you think that eliminating Hamas is going to bring about a permanent peace between Israel and the Palestinians, I'm not sure I'm the one who's being naive. That sort of wishful thinking is the flip side of the equally farfetched thought that peace could be achieved if the Israelis simply withdrew to their 1967 borders.

Again, pardon my cynicism, but it's a cynicism built on an observation of an ongoing tragedy of 70 years and counting. I have no idea how to solve this issue, but neither does anyone else.


Except I didn't say peace was likely once Hamas was defeated, only that we would then have a modicum of hope.


Far be it for me to want to rain on your dreams, but I've seen this movie too many times before.

Israel's challenges with terrorism prior to the rise of Hamas and other militant Islamic entities in the 1980s had much to do with Arab nationalism and its uncompromising position on the Jewish State. Now that Israel's relations with the Arab world have improved markedly, one may argue that knocking out Hamas will ultimately result in the rise of true moderates inside the West Bank and Gaza.

One might, but at this point I can't think of any nearby countries that even recognize Israel other than Egypt, Jordan and Turkey. I'm not sure how much another military victory is going to change that.
   132. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:20 PM (#5672066)
Apparently Melania had kidney surgery today. Details are scant. No matter what I may think of her husband, I hope she has a speedy and smooth recovery.

Edited to insert #FakeNews link. Note: The surgery is not FakeNews (I don't think).
   133. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:21 PM (#5672068)
They knew the demonstrations were coming and they stuck with live ammunition because they don’t value Palestinian lives.
No. They didn't "stick with live ammunition." They used tear gas and rubber bullets as well. But this type of situation isn't what rubber bullets are good for, and tear gas has limited effectiveness against people who are prepared for it.

I note that nobody has any answer for what to do when thousands, or tens of thousands, of people try to invade your country. But you know that Israel should've done something different.

Can’t see any hope there until Netanyahu is gone (probably need change in Palestinian leadership for real peace, too, but I’m hoping a different Israeli PM would at least not be committed to sabotaging peace deal and have some sense of restraint when it comes to shooting protestors).
The point of JE's mention of Chechnya was to evoke what it actually looks like when one side doesn't show restraint.

There are no peace deals for Netanyahu to sabotage even if he were actually committed to doing so. He did what he could, and got no results from Abbas.
   134. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:24 PM (#5672073)
I didn’t get the .pilf thing until now either, and now it seems so obvious.

Oh, wait, now I get it: It's like the old ad for Bibi's favorite patent medicine.
   135. SY Ruined School Lunches! Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:24 PM (#5672074)

I note that nobody has any answer for what to do when thousands, or tens of thousands, of people try to invade your country. But you know that Israel should've done something different.
lol
   136. zenbitz Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:26 PM (#5672076)
Maybe explain again why Hamas is trying to destroy the principal cargo crossing (which is how goods are delivered to Gaza residents) and breach Israel's borders?


Because they -- just like like Israeli hard liners-- directly benefit from increased tension and violence. It's really not that hard.
   137. Lassus Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:27 PM (#5672078)
There are very few people who believe what you pretend, and even for those that do, I assure you that the location of the U.S. Embassy does not appear anywhere in their scripture.

JEANINE PIRRO, above, via Gonfalon, TRUMP NEWS:
fulfilled the Biblical prophecy of the God worshipped by Jews, Christians and, yes, Muslims, that Jerusalem is the eternal capital of the Jewish state, and that the Jewish people finally deserve a righteous, free and sovereign Israel."


Regarding David's irrelevant statement about what the embassy has to do with insane religious beliefs, I'm going with:
You don't know what you're talking about here. I know these people. I know what they think and what they want.
When looking for what southern batshit Christians and sheepfuckers want, I'd go with Sam over David (much as I would opposite regarding what those in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv want), although it's adorable the latter refuses - under danger of a Westworldian cognitive plateau (“Your mind rejects reality… it rejects itself.”) - to recognize when he's out of his depth.
   138. Stormy JE Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:28 PM (#5672081)
The point of JE's mention of Chechnya was to evoke what it actually looks like when one side doesn't show restraint.
The other point was that, unlike with Israel, the international community didn't undertake much of an effort to hamstring Russia in its fight against Chechen rebels.
   139. Count Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:29 PM (#5672082)
Bibi did not do what he could. Are you kidding?

I know that the answer to unarmed protestors is not live ammunition. Imagine using this argument in the United States, or with regard to any other country. You would be appalled if America did this.
   140. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:29 PM (#5672083)
I note that nobody has any answer for what to do when thousands, or tens of thousands, of people try to invade your country.

That's unfortunately the same question that Palestinians have been asking for 70 years, and regardless of its merit** it's one that continues to resonate with enough of them to keep this tragedy going for another 70 years.

** Emphasis apparently needed
   141. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:30 PM (#5672084)
Want lay a wager as to what will happen to Health Insurance premiums, released shortly before the election? I'll take high, higher, and highest.

So, you're saying Obama lied when he said people would save $2500 a year on health insurance (and could keep their doctor & health plan, too)? Yeah, most people already knew that.
   142. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:31 PM (#5672086)

JEANNE PIRRO, above, via Gonfalon, TRUMP NEWS:
Jeanine Pirro is a Catholic.
   143. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:32 PM (#5672089)
I know that the answer to unarmed protestors is not live ammunition.

The problem is that those protesters weren't all unarmed. I'm not in love with Israeli policies towards the Palestinians, but in this case we aren't talking about a peaceful sit-in.
   144. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:32 PM (#5672090)
Howie, if you're still around, any sense of how, if at all, today's ruling will affect the status of online poker in the short term?
   145. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:33 PM (#5672091)
Speaking of borders, what's happening - if anything - with Crimea? Is it just Russian now, and no one cares? Anyone know what it's like traveling there? Did Ukrainian stuff in Sevastopol (like government assets, or import/export goods, or whatever) get annexed, or moved to Odessa, or what? Do the citizens care one way or the other? I gather the Russians outnumber the Ukrainians there, any citizen-on-citizen unrest?

Yes I could consult Wikipedia but screw that.
   146. Srul Itza Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:33 PM (#5672092)
Per the book of Joshua, the Israelites took the land of Canaan by the sword, and those who lived there at the time did not fare well.

The historicity of Joshua is questionable, but it serves as a useful national mythos to a country born in war and who have known little but war ever since: God gave them license to take all the land by any means necessary, and that covenant is binding in perpetuity.

This cannot end well.
   147. Lassus Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:35 PM (#5672094)
Jeanine Pirro is a Catholic.

Right. And she, like Sam, and unlike you, knows why all of this is important to the lunatic Christian portion of the Trump base. That's the point in opposition to your #82.
   148. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:36 PM (#5672095)
I know that the answer to unarmed protestors is not live ammunition. Imagine using this argument in the United States, or with regard to any other country. You would be appalled if America did this.
They are not unarmed or protestors.

For that reason, the reference to the U.S. doesn't really make any sense; there's no analogous situation. But if tens of thousands of people in the U.S. surrounded and attacked a domestic military base seeking to destroy it, I don't think the people on the base would defend the base with stern warnings.
   149. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:37 PM (#5672097)
New Gallup Presidential Job Approval poll out today,


Cockholster gonna cockholster.
   150. perros Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:39 PM (#5672099)

This cannot end well

Pretty much my thoughts. To be fair, about everything.

   151. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:39 PM (#5672100)
Bibi did not do what he could. Are you kidding?

The blame-Bibi crowd never seems to mention that the Palestinians rejected peace deals when Israel had non-Likud governments, too. Hamas' commitment to terrorism doesn't depend on Israeli election results.
   152. Srul Itza Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:39 PM (#5672101)
I know that the answer to unarmed protesters is not live ammunition.


Once they make the decision to attempt to cross the border en masse, and to tear down any impediment to that crossing, they stop being "protesters" and become invaders.

In America, if you don't want to get shot, you don't antagonize the heavily armed and poorly trained individual in the blue uniform who is yelling at you.

In Gaza, if you don't want to get shot, you don't rush the border.
   153. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:39 PM (#5672102)
Apparently Melania had kidney surgery today.


If you'd whored yourself out into a life of ####### Donald Trump, you'd drink heavily too.
   154. perros Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:43 PM (#5672103)
Actually, drinking is relatively good for your kidneys.
   155. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:44 PM (#5672104)
So, you're saying Obama lied when he said people would save $2500 a year on health insurance (and could keep their doctor & health plan, too)? Yeah, most people already knew that.


Way to stay topical. Fortunately polls have shown that most voters recognize that healthcare is now owned by the GOP. You guys hold all the levers of power and have had free rein to bolster or sabotage ACA. Sadly you and yours choose to sabotage it, repeatedly. And in November we will see the results of that. And we both agree premiums will be high, higher, and highest, so it won't be much of a surprise if voters don't take kindly to paying more for things like gas and healthcare.

But hey, I could be wrong. Maybe they will reward the GOP. Either way it will be essentially a referendum on unified GOP control of government.
   156. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:47 PM (#5672107)
It is much more amusing watching the Machiavellian machinations in the GOP than the Democrats. I think it is the lack of shame that makes it so, but it could be any number of other factors as well.

Pence Reaches for Control of the GOP

New York Times: “While Mr. Trump remains an overpowering personality in Republican politics, he is mostly uninterested in the mechanics of managing a political party. His team of advisers is riven with personal divisions and the White House has not yet crafted a strategy for the midterms. So Mr. Trump’s supremely disciplined running mate has stepped into the void.”

“Republican officials now see Mr. Pence as seeking to exercise expansive control over a political party ostensibly helmed by Mr. Trump, tending to his own allies and interests even when the president’s instincts lean in another direction. Even as he laces his public remarks with praise for the president, Mr. Pence and his influential chief of staff, Nick Ayers, are unsettling a group of Mr. Trump’s fierce loyalists who fear they are forging a separate power base.”
   157. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:50 PM (#5672109)
Per the book of Joshua


Can we get the readings of intestines of birds, and maybe a quote from the Enuma Elish next?
   158. Howie Menckel Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:52 PM (#5672112)
Howie, if you're still around, any sense of how, if at all, today's ruling will affect the status of online poker in the short term?

no impact. there is no federal ban on online poker anymore - it's up to the states. NV, DE, NJ and PA have legalized it, and any other state can as well. but inertia is a powerful force in Legislatures.

as noted earlier, Congress in 1992 could have banned sports betting - heck, they can do it now. but the way they did it, they effectively forced states to enforce their own preference - which is a "commandeering" no-no in conservative circles. classic "state's rights" case.
   159. GordonShumway Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:57 PM (#5672115)
It's difficult to envision any realistic scenario in the long-term that doesn't result in the liquidation and genocide of the Palestinian people.
   160. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:57 PM (#5672117)
In international news - Dismembered Human Feet Keep Washing Ashore In Canada:
A man was out for a Sunday afternoon stroll on a British Columbia beach when he made a gruesome discovery: a human foot in a hiking boot, lodged in pile of wood. Authorities aren't saying much more about the foot. But it's the 14th found washed up on a shoreline over the past decade in or around the Salish Sea between Vancouver Island and the British Columbia mainland.

Nine of the 14 feet have been identified, and officials determined they belonged to six people. According to the British Columbia Coroners Service, no foul play was involved in the previous cases.
. . .
"There's no reason to believe that they (the cases) were connected in any way," a spokesman for the Coroners Service told CNN in December, when the last foot was found. Authorities determined that foot belonged to a 79-year-old Washington state man who had gone missing almost three months earlier.

Why are only feet washing ashore? Authorities say it's because of the way human bodies decompose and how feet are protected by shoes from the elements and nibbling marine creatures.

If the incidents are unconnected, and just caused by feet being the last body part to decompose, shouldn't this be happening elsewhere, too?
   161. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 14, 2018 at 03:58 PM (#5672118)
It's difficult to envision any realistic scenario in the long-term that doesn't result in the liquidation and genocide of the Palestinian people.


What if they just rounded 'em up and sent 'em to camps?
   162. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 14, 2018 at 04:00 PM (#5672120)
If the incidents are unconnected, and just caused by feet being the last body part to decompose, shouldn't this be happening elsewhere, too?


No. Only in regions where people near the water are wearing work boots when they die/drown/wash out to sea.
   163. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 14, 2018 at 04:04 PM (#5672123)
Actually, drinking is relatively good for your kidneys.


Some drinking may be. Drinking heavily enough to forget the horror of Donald Trump's grubby orange flab draped all over you, no.
   164. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 14, 2018 at 04:05 PM (#5672124)
Fortunately polls have shown that most voters recognize that healthcare is now owned by the GOP. You guys hold all the levers of power and have had free rein to bolster or sabotage ACA. Sadly you and yours choose to sabotage it, repeatedly. And in November we will see the results of that. And we both agree premiums will be high, higher, and highest, so it won't be much of a surprise if voters don't take kindly to paying more for things like gas and healthcare.

Trigger alert: The following is a Washington Post editorial:

A near-universal health-care plan that wouldn’t break the bank
SINCE THE day Obamacare passed, as Republicans have sought to sabotage it, Democrats have hoped for more. Their hopes have taken them ever closer to pushing a radical upending of the health-care system, exemplified in Vermont independent Sen. Bernie Sanders’s plan for a European-style single-payer program, which a growing list of prospective Democratic presidential candidates has endorsed. But there are options that are neither as cruel as the GOP’s miserly repeal-and-replace nor as disruptive as the more sweeping left-wing proposals. In other words, they are compassionate and realistic.

Economists at the Urban Institute, an independent research group, released on Sunday a proposal that would get the nation to near-universal health-care coverage and relieve many of the financial burdens some people face under the current system — and cost the federal treasury far less than more radical plans. It would leave in place Medicare and the employer-based health-care system, whereby most Americans get their insurance. But it would create a new health-care marketplace for most everyone else — those on Medicaid and the Children’s Health Insurance Program, which are government initiatives for low-income people, and those buying insurance on their own in the individual market.

As under Obamacare, insurance companies could not deny people essential care. But the federal subsidies helping people buy coverage would be more generous, pegged to the “gold” tier of plans in the current system. The subsidies would scale with income; some people would get free coverage; even at the high end, no one would pay more than 8.5 percent of their income in premiums for a gold plan. People could take this money and buy into a new, government-run plan, or they could purchase coverage from private insurers. Crucially, doctors, hospitals and other providers would be barred from charging private insurers in the new market more than they charge Medicare, which could lower costs dramatically in areas of the country served by only a few providers whose market power allows them to set high rates.

Because many people would pay premiums and other forms of cost-sharing, they would have some skin in the game. Between this and the fact that employer insurance would continue , the cost to the government would be about $98 billion in the first year — a lot, to be sure, but far less than a switch to single-payer. Insurers would be protected from catastrophic costs through permanent reinsurance and risk-adjustment programs, mechanisms that stabilized the system in Obamacare’s early years. Given the size of the new market, more insurers and most providers would probably participate.

The Urban Institute calculates that the plan would help those currently struggling to afford insurance — and cover about 16 million additional people. Nearly half of those still left uncovered would be undocumented immigrants ineligible for the program.

This is hardly the only option between sabotage and single-payer. For example, Sens. Tim Kaine (D-Va.) and Michael F. Bennet (D-Colo.) have proposed a public-option plan that would make more incremental improvements to Obamacare. The point is that those advocating change can be both humane and practical.


The details of the Urban Institute's proposal are in the link within the editorial.
   165. Stormy JE Posted: May 14, 2018 at 04:08 PM (#5672126)
It's difficult to envision any realistic scenario in the long-term that doesn't result in the liquidation and genocide of the Palestinian people.
Jeremy Corbyn must have a good half-dozen OTP aliases. I'm impressed.
   166. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: May 14, 2018 at 04:13 PM (#5672132)
Figured that would be your response, Howie, though I was hoping you'd say it was expected to embolden legalization proponents in NY, among other places.

Regardless, thanks.
   167. GordonShumway Posted: May 14, 2018 at 04:13 PM (#5672133)
What if they just rounded 'em up and sent 'em to camps?


Camps for millions of people will take up a lot of space. Whoever wins out in that part of the world will find it preferable to clear that space for use by their own people.
   168. Count Posted: May 14, 2018 at 04:15 PM (#5672134)
I do not think the response to people storming the US border would be or should be live ammunition. The responses here are appalling and you can tell they are bad because so many false premises are mixed in (implying a real threat to Israeli soldiers when the protestors, not “attackers,” were shot from a distance and no Israeli has come close to being injured) to try to come up with some justification.
   169. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 14, 2018 at 04:17 PM (#5672135)
I do not think the response to people storming the US border would be or should be live ammunition. The responses here are appalling and you can tell they are bad because so many false premises are mixed in (implying a real threat to Israeli soldiers when the protestors, not “attackers,” were shot from a distance and no Israeli has come close to being injured) to try to come up with some justification.


WHAT PART OF BREAKING THE LAW DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?!
   170. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 14, 2018 at 04:18 PM (#5672136)

It's difficult to envision any realistic scenario in the long-term that doesn't result in the liquidation and genocide of the Palestinian people.
The Palestinian population has been growing throughout Israel's existence. Oddest genocide ever.
   171. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: May 14, 2018 at 04:20 PM (#5672137)
@ronwyden:
Why is @realDonaldTrump personally protecting a Chinese tech company guilty of evading US sanctions on Iran? Maybe this:

@adamdavidson:
A Trump building project in Indonesia is receiving millions from Chinese government. How is this not emoluments? https://sc.mp/2rCpF5x via @SCMP_News
   172. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 14, 2018 at 04:22 PM (#5672138)
A Trump building project in Indonesia is receiving millions from Chinese government. How is this not emoluments? https://sc.mp/2rCpF5x via @SCMP_News


Jimmy Carter ran a peanut farm while President.
   173. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 14, 2018 at 04:23 PM (#5672141)
I do not think the response to people storming the US border would be or should be live ammunition.
Yes, you've already provided your military expertise in that regard, but you have nonetheless conspicuously failed to tell us what the response should be, in your view.

(implying a real threat to Israeli soldiers when the protestors, not “attackers,” were shot from a distance and no Israeli has come close to being injured)
You're mistaken. The attackers' -- not protesters' -- threat is to Israel as a whole, not to the Israeli soldiers specifically. But in a war situation -- and, yes, there's a state of war; it's not an anti-Vietnam War protest on the campus of Kent State -- soldiers do not wait for their enemies to come within arms length before they defend their positions.
   174. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: May 14, 2018 at 04:24 PM (#5672142)
Actually, drinking is relatively good for your kidneys.

So you are saying it was cocaine then?
   175. Stormy JE Posted: May 14, 2018 at 04:26 PM (#5672145)
I do not think the response to people storming the US border would be or should be live ammunition. The responses here are appalling and you can tell they are bad because so many false premises are mixed in (implying a real threat to Israeli soldiers when the protestors, not “attackers,” were shot from a distance and no Israeli has come close to being injured) to try to come up with some justification.
It's easy from the safety of one's keyboard to moralize on what constitutes an acceptable use of force. Hamas sought to have tens of thousands of protestors enter Israel with the express purpose of destroying property and killing men, women, and children. No other nation on the planet would be subject to these sorts of insane comments.

Notice too that Count has yet to answer my question about the tunnels, despite being asked more than once. Maybe he just thinks Hamas engineers are buiding a Metro?
   176. GordonShumway Posted: May 14, 2018 at 04:33 PM (#5672150)
It's difficult to envision any realistic scenario in the long-term that doesn't result in the liquidation and genocide of the Palestinian people.

The Palestinian population has been growing throughout Israel's existence. Oddest genocide ever.


You're right, the Palestinian population has been growing, and might I add it has been growing a lot. So has the Jewish population there over the past 70 years. Therein lies the problem though, doesn't it?

The Jewish and Arab fertility rate, per Wiki, is respectively 3.16 and 3.29. Israel already has over 1,000 people per sq. mile. You have a lot of people on a small amount of land, with very little water, and that number of people will grow quickly over the foreseeable future.

Neighboring Arab countries can talk big about how they sympathize with the Palestinians, but they are not letting them in. Palestinians have very limited options when it comes to immigrating to other countries. For historical and religious reasons well known by everyone here, the Jewish population for the most part does not intend to emigrate from their country anytime in the foreseeable future.

So how are all these people going to live peacefully together a generation or two from now? Especially, since as Srul noted, the side with the upper hand believes "God gave them license to take all the land by any means necessary, and that covenant is binding in perpetuity"?
   177. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 14, 2018 at 04:43 PM (#5672158)
This sums it up rather neatly, IMHO - The Strategic Case For Moving The U. S. Embassy To Jerusalem:
Since Oslo in 1993, Israel has allowed Palestinian terrorists to set up a government in Ramallah, made three peace offers within internationally-accepted parameters, withdrawn from Gaza and parts of Samaria, suffered an intifadah, and in return has gotten… a worldwide Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions campaign? The Palestinians have believed that they could win by stalling, waiting until the world’s impatience forced Israel to concede. Moving the U.S. Embassy without a peace agreement demonstrates to the Palestinians that things can and will move on without them, as do the growing ties between Israel and the Sunni powers. Either accept that Israel is here to stay and make the necessary accommodations, or be left in the dustbin of history.

There is simply no reason to humor a corrupt Palestinian leadership that clings to power by inciting its populous to believe they can wipe Israel off the map.
   178. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 14, 2018 at 04:52 PM (#5672169)
The Jewish and Arab fertility rate


Nationalism is always ####### stupid.
   179. Stormy JE Posted: May 14, 2018 at 05:02 PM (#5672178)
Iran is funding Hamas’s violent campaign at Gaza border, Shin Bet says:
Hamas has warned its own members to stay away from the security fence during Gaza’s mass protests, lest they get shot, while actively encouraging Palestinian civilians — particularly children and teens — to approach the border, the Shin Bet added, citing findings from a number of interrogations. If the fence is breached, however, armed Hamas gunmen are poised to enter Israel to carry out attacks.

“There is a prohibition for Hamas operatives to approach the border, from a fear that they will be killed or captured by IDF troops, unless the security fence falls and then they must enter, armed, into Israel under the cover of the masses and carry out terror attacks,” the Shin Bet said in a statement.
Emphasis mine.

Captain Count was unavailable for comment.
   180. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: May 14, 2018 at 05:03 PM (#5672179)
Clapper, #129:
New Gallup Presidential Job Approval poll out today, and it looks like Trump's best net result this year from Gallup.


Gallup measured Trump's approval and net approval rising by 1%.

During the identical period, Trump's friendliest pollster Rasmussen found him down 2%. A few days earlier, Econ/YouGov had Trump slipping by 1%, and Reuters/Ipsos measured Trump's approval plunging by 8%.

But it's nice that you found a yummy cherry.
   181. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 14, 2018 at 05:05 PM (#5672183)
It's easy from the safety of one's keyboard to moralize on what constitutes an acceptable use of force


Holy ####### ####. Jason wrote that. UNIRONICALLY! The keyboardiest of the Fighting 101st Keyboard Brigade wrote that!! Jesus ####### Christ.
   182. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 14, 2018 at 05:06 PM (#5672184)
But it's nice that you found a yummy cherry.


There is no #### he can't handle.
   183. BDC Posted: May 14, 2018 at 05:12 PM (#5672188)
If the incidents are unconnected, and just caused by feet being the last body part to decompose, shouldn't this be happening elsewhere, too?

I just checked out in the easement behind our house and sure enough, it is foot-free.
   184. Count Posted: May 14, 2018 at 05:14 PM (#5672191)
I answered your question as to what I thought Hamas was trying to accomplish with the protests. As for the tunnels I assume they want to use them for attacks or smuggling. Again does not in any way justify shooting protestors (hence attempts here to portray them as attackers as if there was physical risk to Israelis and live ammunition was only solution).
   185. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 14, 2018 at 05:23 PM (#5672195)

and live ammunition was only solution).
And yet, you've still failed -- at this point, one might even say refused -- to tell us what you think they could use to stop the attempted invasion.
   186. manchestermets Posted: May 14, 2018 at 05:24 PM (#5672197)
although it's adorable the latter refuses - under danger of a Westworldian cognitive plateau (“Your mind rejects reality… it rejects itself.”) - to recognize when he's out of his depth.


It's his standard operating mode. There's nobody I'd want on my side more in an employment dispute in the state of New York, but on anything else, he knows more than everyone who's spent their life studying the topic, and that's all there is to it.
   187. Random Transaction Generator Posted: May 14, 2018 at 05:25 PM (#5672198)
If the incidents are unconnected, and just caused by feet being the last body part to decompose, shouldn't this be happening elsewhere, too?


It always depends on currents and water temperature. The combination lines up nicely for the Vancouver Island area.
   188. perros Posted: May 14, 2018 at 05:52 PM (#5672218)
So you are saying it was cocaine then?

She just does it 'cos she likes the smell.
   189. perros Posted: May 14, 2018 at 05:54 PM (#5672219)
Some drinking may be. Drinking heavily enough to forget the horror of Donald Trump's grubby orange flab draped all over you, no.

Compression trauma. Though I doubt The Donald has gotten any affection from his wife recently, nor is he likely to ever get any again.
   190. perros Posted: May 14, 2018 at 05:57 PM (#5672223)

If the incidents are unconnected, and just caused by feet being the last body part to decompose, shouldn't this be happening elsewhere, too?

The Pacific coast isn't pacific.
   191. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 14, 2018 at 05:58 PM (#5672225)
Though I doubt The Donald has gotten any affection from his wife recently, nor is he likely to ever get any again.


I assume his "wives" are the escorts who require a longer term payout.
   192. perros Posted: May 14, 2018 at 05:59 PM (#5672226)
Too bad that Robinson Jeffers poem about the vultures found a home in another thread.
   193. perros Posted: May 14, 2018 at 06:03 PM (#5672231)
I assume his "wives" are the escorts who require a longer term payout.

Why do you think those women were signing up to be spat on and worse by the NY AG? Or at least hung around afterwards? Rather than date some loser who was nice to them?

We should go extinct, but biological imperatives suggest otherwise.
   194. Srul Itza Posted: May 14, 2018 at 06:29 PM (#5672250)
Moqtada al-Sadr appears to be winning the current election in Iraq.

Wonder if he'll get a congratulatory call from the US?
   195. Count Posted: May 14, 2018 at 06:46 PM (#5672255)
DN I don’t know, but characterizing it as an invasion is misleading and the Israelis obviously didn’t give a #### about finding a non lethal solution. Despite your conviction this is normal I’m struggling to think of analogous cases involving protestors heading towards a border where it was seen as acceptable to shoot hundreds of them.
   196. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 14, 2018 at 07:52 PM (#5672281)
Despite your conviction this is normal I’m struggling to think of analogous cases involving protestors heading towards a border where it was seen as acceptable to shoot hundreds of them.

Calling attackers "protestors" doesn't insulate them for the consequences of their own actions. The Washington Post also call the attackers "protestors", but their own story indicates something far more nefarious:
“We are excited to storm and get inside,” said 23-year-old Mohammed Mansoura. When asked what he would do inside Israel, he said, “Whatever is possible, to kill, throw stones.”

Two other young men carried large knives and said they wanted to kill Jews on the other side of the fence. [emphasis added]

These "protestors" are hurling pipe bombs & fire bombs, and would almost certainly kill any Israeli border guard who became separated from his unit or overrun. They are not "demonstrators" or "protestors" as the terms are normally used. Those pretending otherwise are fools, or trying to further the agenda of the rioters.
   197. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 14, 2018 at 08:28 PM (#5672300)
If all is permitted in war, then all is permitted in war. You chose that.
   198. Ray (CTL) Posted: May 14, 2018 at 08:31 PM (#5672301)
Emphasis added. The point isn't that the Palestinian leadership is blameless, but that moving the Embassy was a completely unnecessary move, made solely to score political points for Trump and Bibi. It was a move that was bound to bring about tragedies like this, and will likely continue to do so. Not that Trump and Bibi (or the protest leaders who egged the demonstrators on to their slaughter) give a #### about any of this.


"Protest" leaders. "Demonstrators."

Please.
   199. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 14, 2018 at 08:33 PM (#5672303)
These "protestors" are hurling pipe bombs & fire bombs, and would almost certainly kill any Israeli border guard who became separated from his unit or overrun. They are not "demonstrators" or "protestors" as the terms are normally used. Those pretending otherwise are fools, or trying to further the agenda of the rioters.
I agree with all of that, but at the same time I think it misses the point. The primary threat they pose isn't to the soldiers personally. The primary threat they pose is to public order in Israel more generally: if the barrier is breached and thousands (or tens of thousands) of people pour in, then what? They may not all be armed, but they're all dedicated to the elimination of Israel. They are not there to protest the U.S. moving its embassy; they are there to protest Israel existing. How is Israel supposed to corral all those people?
   200. Ray (CTL) Posted: May 14, 2018 at 08:34 PM (#5672304)
The organization's leadership bears sole responsibility for today's deaths.

No one could have predicted who Jason would blame.


Jason is Jewish. Obviously his... what's the phrase you guys use... "life experiences" are going to cause him to take certain views of related issues. How is this anyone different from what, say, African Americans do, or Muslims do, or women do? Why is it suddenly outrageous in the eyes of you, Andy, Misirlou et al for him to do this -- but not for others to do so?

Lassus and Andy just had a spate of posts yesterday talking about how African Americans see the world. Why can Jason not have his outputs affected by his own life experiences and those of his family and friends, without being attacked?
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