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Monday, May 14, 2018

OTP 2018 May 14: Political leadership, fans needed to bring baseball to Portland: Guest opinion

Today I’m not writing to promote the virtues of Major League Baseball or Portland as a baseball city. I’m writing from the perspective of one who worked on the last successful effort to bring a professional sports team to town—the Portland Timbers—and as someone who has worked in state and local politics for nearly 30 years. Few situations are fraught with as much politics as bringing a professional sports team to a community. If you look closely at cities that have experienced these debates, you’ll often find a combustible mix of political, financial and cultural issues that run deep and can linger for years.

 

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 14, 2018 at 07:28 AM | 1370 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: boondoggle, new stadium, off topic, politics, portland

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   501. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 09:53 AM (#5674034)
So I discover upon landing last night that ABGL had just published a lame-brain attempt to justify the government's spying on a major party's presidential campaign. The most likely takeaway: These leakers within or recently departed from these agencies are scared shitless about what Horowitz has learned and is about to publish and are desperate to spin it in the least damaging way possible.
   502. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 17, 2018 at 09:55 AM (#5674036)
“These aren’t people. These are animals.” - Trump says of (some of) the immigrants being deported during his sanctuary cities roundtable.

The leader of the Republican Party, folks. And the United States of America

Trump's remarks were about members of the MS-13 criminal gang. Quite telling that the reporting and posting here managed to obscure that.
   503. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:03 AM (#5674040)
This Pennsylvania primary result isn't good news for the Democrats, Mouse:
The foundation run by Pennsylvania Democratic congressional candidate Scott Wallace has given hundreds of thousands of dollars to organizations that promote the anti-Israel boycott, divestment and sanctions (BDS) movement.

Wallace won the Democratic nomination Tuesday night to face Republican Rep. Brian Fitzpatrick in Pennsylvania's new first congressional district, seen as a key race in the 2018 battle for control of the House of Representatives. He is a wealthy philanthropist and the grandson of Henry Wallace, the second of President Franklin D. Roosevelt's three vice presidents.

The Forward reports Wallace ran the Wallace Global Fund from 2003 until this year, when he made his run for Congress, and the organization has dispensed more than $300,000 to anti-Israel groups in support of BDS. The Anti-Defamation League has condemned BDS as a movement to delegitimize Israel and "rampant with misinformation and distortion."

The support for BDS could be damaging to Wallace, given the district's relatively high Jewish population.

   504. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:04 AM (#5674041)
@roh_tweets:
The missing context here is that Trump was speaking specifically about the MS13 gang members. But he's broadly conflated undocumented immigrants with criminal activity before, so it's hard to say the context casts Trump's comments in any better of a light.


@normative:
I understood the context. I don’t care in the slightest. It mitigates the repulsiveness of what he said not one iota. His whole disgusting schtick is smearing the thousands of decent people whose lives he destroys by equating them with the minuscule fraction who are dangerous.

Everyone who wants to play nuance chess on this: Declined. You’re blocked and you’re a piece of ####. I’m too old and tired to kabuki through pretending any of this crap is in good faith.

The kindest thing I can say here is that there are probably folks who, at least at a conscious level, genuinely don’t understand what Trump is doing. And maybe they’re not malicious. But I don’t really care what someone that dim thinks or want to waste time arguing with them.

...

This is a textbook case of how dehumanizing and racist rhetoric works. The question references a hypothetical MS-13 member. Trump immediately pivots to a vaguer “people trying to come into the country” who we’re “taking out.”

The point of that move is precisely to conflate groups: “people trying to come in” —> gang members —> “not people, animals.” Spend five minutes on any racist message board and you’ll find a dozen instances of the trope.

There’s always some real crime by some specific member of a disfavored group that gets invoked to rationalize the move to talk about the more nebulous “they” who are animals and savages. But the specific case is always a pretext for indulging the generalization.




   505. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:08 AM (#5674044)
The missing context here is that Trump was speaking specifically about the MS13 gang members. But he's broadly conflated undocumented immigrants with criminal activity before, so it's hard to say the context casts Trump's comments in any better of a light.


Now combine this with the story I posted at 499 where ICE outright lies to a court about a legal, perfectly clean DACA immigrant, claiming in direct contravention of every piece of evidence that he is "in a gang." "Gang members" are the method they use to turn immigrants into "animals," and they will lie about anyone and everyone to make that transformation near universal.
   506. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:10 AM (#5674048)
I was surprised Clapper didn't post anything on the Eastman-Ashford race in Nebraska . . . Eastman is supposedly unelectable because she took the wild-eyed liberal stance of running on expanding Medicare to universal eligibility . . .

To be fair, Eastman favors raising taxes & more gun control, too. And she's hardly the only one. Democrats chose the more liberal option in a number of the closely watched races on Tuesday. That's where the energy is in the Democratic Party; it remains to be seen if that costs them seats that might be winnable with more moderate candidates.
   507. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:11 AM (#5674050)
That's where the energy is in the Democratic Party; it remains to be seen if that costs them seats that might be winnable with more moderate candidates.


Fcvk you, cockholster.
   508. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:15 AM (#5674053)
The point of that move is precisely to conflate groups: “people trying to come in” —> gang members —> “not people, animals.” Spend five minutes on any racist message board and you’ll find a dozen instances of the trope.


Spend ten minutes and they'll blame the Jews behind it all. Spend 20 minutes and it will be sanitized enough for Juan to post a link to the decontextualized quote.
   509. Lassus Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:16 AM (#5674055)
Given that I have very explicitly defended Israel's right to defend its border and said that there are many Palestinians who are a danger to Israel and Israelis, I'm hoping I've gained enough goodwill to try and get some input with what's going on regarding the various stories, photographs, and videos of young Palestinian children being arrested. Are they bombers and shooters? Are they a danger? Is it considered necessary leverage against Hamas? Is it just the way it is with war? Am I wading in too far?
   510. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:20 AM (#5674058)
Oh, and it's LAUREL.

(Alright, alright, I'll take it to the other thread.)
   511. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:21 AM (#5674061)
Am I wading in too far?
Who are these "young Palestinian children being arrested?"
   512. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:24 AM (#5674064)
what's going on regarding the various stories, photographs, and videos of young Palestinian children being arrested.


They're gang members. So, ya know. Animals.
   513. Lassus Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:25 AM (#5674065)
I have listened to that dumb clip for the first time, three times, and I swear I god I really heard "Yarree", so I'm assuming everyone is defective.
   514. BDC Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:27 AM (#5674066)
Apologies if this story has appeared on OTP. Though probably not, as we hardly ever talk about gay marriage around here :)

A Mansfield {TX} teacher got pulled from class after she showed her students a photo of herself and her future wife dressed as popular Disney characters Dory and Nemo.

The district said that in the 10 years Bailey has worked for Mansfield schools, her open sexual preferences hadn't become an issue until this year.

"That's when her actions in the classroom changed, which prompted her students to voice concerns to their parents," the district said, adding that the issue is whether Bailey followed district guidelines to teach in "an impartial and objective manner."


Other stories I've read have said that the context of showing the photo was that the school had a week of talking about family, where teacher talked about and showed photos of their own families.

As always, there are any number of legal technicalities involved, and the teacher may or may not have a case. But as a "should" principle: if you've got a district that likes to have teachers talk about family, should they only talk about certain kinds of family? I remember teachers constantly talking about husbands and wives back in the "we assume everybody's straight" days – are only hetero spouses supposed to continue doing that now?
   515. Lassus Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:34 AM (#5674072)
Who are these "young Palestinian children being arrested?"

Various videos.

If it's all anti-Semitic lies, I can understand. I consider myself more acknowledging of anti-Semitism than many goyim have been, especially up here in this shithole of the north country. But I feel disagreement with specific things simply isn't anti-Semitism, but disagreement. I dunno. I'll probably coward my way out of the topic eventually quickly, I'm breaking a literal decades-old self-rule here about online Israel debates.
   516. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:43 AM (#5674079)
Lassus, this helps illustrate why you should take reports of Israel savagely beating innocent children with a grain of salt:
The incitement involves not only fabricated claims of Israeli intentions as to the Temple Mount and al-Aqsa Mosque, but also false claims which portray Palestinian attackers as random innocent victims of Israeli aggression.

The cumulative effect is to so inflame young Palestinians, including children, that they attack Jews for being Jews.

Now a famous Palestinian activist has joined in.

Bassem Tamimi is the internationally-famous Palestinian activist from the West Bank village of Nabi Saleh who is best known for the viral videos and photos he creates by sending children, including his own, to confront Israeli soldiers.

Tamimi, who argues that it is the “duty” of children to engage in acts of resistance, is on a U.S. national tour co-sponsored by Jewish Voice for Peace, which is at the forefront of the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement. ...

A storm of controversy erupted during Tamimi’s tour when the Ithaca, NY, chapter of JVP brought Tamimi to a third grade class. Tamimi concluded the event by calling for the third graders to become “freedom fighters” for Palestine.

The Superintendent of the Ithaca school district, after an investigation, denounced the visit, finding that Tamimi was not invited by the school and the event was “not developmentally appropriate for third graders, nor aligned with the New York State standards. The statements were politically skewed, inflammatory, and not endorsed by the Ithaca City School District.”

Nonetheless, JVP stood by Tamimi. JVP defended the third grade event and launched a campaign claiming that the Superintendent’s criticism of the third grade event was proof that pro-Palestinian voices were being “silenced and threatened.”

It always has been highly questionable that Tamimi was the non-violent peace activist he presents himself to be. The Tamimi clan continues to be involved in inciting violence via social media.

But this Facebook entry by Tamimi, in which he spreads the claim that Israel arrests Palestinian children in order to harvest their organs, takes the incitement to a new level...

While I can’t verify the origin of the photo Tamimi shared, it appears to be a stock photo used in many articles for many countries. It was used, for example, in a 2012 International Business Times article, which doesn’t mention Israel, about illegal international trade in kidneys.
   517. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:43 AM (#5674081)
@KT_So_It_Goes:
the problem here is, with so many other things trump, that there’s no way to tell whether he means it as “I personally find certain behaviors appalling and must use hyperbole to describe my personal revulsion” or “the United States should cease to recognize them as humans”

as far as I’m concerned he’s spent years discussing his yearnings for grotesque applications of state power and as far as I’m concerned it’s not unfair to assume that his deep-seated urge to bash everything he finds distasteful with vile USG policies doesn’t apply here as well

the man pardoned joe arpaio for ########, spare me the tears

but ####, lets milk another “that’s how you got trump” cycle out of this and inject all our personal grievances into it, because god forbid the man in the highest office in the land be responsible for his own words when we can play “what he meant was”
   518. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:46 AM (#5674086)
They're gang members. So, ya know. Animals.
Very fine people on both sides?
   519. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:49 AM (#5674089)
Very fine people on both sides?


You're probably right, Jason. Best put them all in cattle cars now.
   520. Zonk did it for the children of Russia Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:51 AM (#5674092)
Trump's remarks were about members of the MS-13 criminal gang. Quite telling that the reporting and posting here managed to obscure that.


How odd that nowhere in the clip do any of the words "MS-13" or "gang" appear...
   521. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:52 AM (#5674093)
Ahed Tamimi sentenced to 8 months in prison in plea deal:
Palestinian teen provocateur Ahed Tamimi, on trial for slapping an IDF officer and accosting him and a comrade during Nabi Salih riots, was sentenced to eight months in prison on Wednesday, under a plea bargain finalized between the Military Prosecution Service and Tamimi's lawyers.

The agreement was brought to the Ofer Camp's military tribunal Wednesday for approval. Tamimi's cousin, Nur Tamimi, who also took part in the incident, was sentenced to five months in prison.

The two Tamimi girls—Ahed, 17, and Nur, 21—were filmed hitting a company commander and a soldier in December during clashes between Palestinians and IDF forces in the village of Nabi Salih in the central West Bank.
Also worth checking out:

Advocates for Terror: Why Ahed Tamimi and Her Family are No Heroes
   522. Count Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:53 AM (#5674094)
Lassus, the short answer is that decades of occupation have had a horrible effect on Israel. They are also intensely defensive so they and their defenders often dig in instead of trying to fix things, in part because a lot of criticism of Israel as a country is disproportionate and focuses on whether there should be a jewish state in Israel at all, not on their specific actions and the occupation, and they face real threats in their neighborhood and of course had decades of terrorism.
   523. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:54 AM (#5674096)
You're probably right, Jason. Best put them all in cattle cars now.
Your nutterdom now encompasses the vocal defense of a savage gang? Awesome.
   524. Count Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:55 AM (#5674098)
514 - they should make a law in Texas banning discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation with a very specific carve out for people who make cakes for weddings.
   525. Lassus Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:59 AM (#5674103)
Lassus, this helps illustrate why you should take reports of Israel savagely beating innocent children with a grain of salt:

Actually, all I said was "arresting". And I wasn't talking about Tamimi.


A storm of controversy erupted during Tamimi’s tour when the Ithaca, NY, chapter of JVP brought Tamimi to a third grade class. Tamimi concluded the event by calling for the third graders to become “freedom fighters” for Palestine.

Heh. That's a very dark chuckle. Ithaca has some great bookstores and some bad liberals.
   526. Count Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:04 AM (#5674105)
So I discover upon landing last night that ABGL had just published a lame-brain attempt to justify the government's spying on a major party's presidential campaign. The most likely takeaway: These leakers within or recently departed from these agencies are scared shitless about what Horowitz has learned and is about to publish and are desperate to spin it in the least damaging way possible.


This is the story JE is referring to. It suggests that the FBI went out of its way to be cautious about the Russia investigation during the campaign (among other things, waited on interviews and didn't leak to the press when it was asked about the dossier) because the senior officials on the investigation were worried about being accused of being unfair and thought Clinton would win anyway. This strategy ended up being unfair to Clinton, as we all know, but it's not like that won them any favors - it's impossible to appease Trump and the conservative base without completely abandoning principle and just working to protect Trump and investigate whatever enemies he points to. By "Horowitz" JE is referring to the Inspector General, who is finishing up a draft of a report on the Clinton email investigation. I suspect like the McCabe investigation it will reveal that the FBI was... unfair to Clinton during the campaign. This will be used, somehow, as evidence that the Russia investigation is out of control.
   527. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:05 AM (#5674106)
Trump's remarks were about members of the MS-13 criminal gang. Quite telling that the reporting and posting here managed to obscure that.

How odd that nowhere in the clip do any of the words "MS-13" or "gang" appear...

How odd that Zonk ignores the C-SPAN caption:
President Trump Calls Gang Members "Animals" During a roundtable with local California officials regarding "sanctuary cities" policies, President Trump says his administration is busy rounding up MS-13 gang members and deporting them. "These aren't people," he says. "These are animals."

The clip only shows the very end of the comment & question directed to Trump, but it is clear that it dealt with MS-13 gang members. Again, quite telling that those reporting on Trump's comment tried to obscure that. Even more telling that after that effort was unmasked, Sleazy Hot Wheels and others insist that context doesn't matter, because Trump.
   528. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:07 AM (#5674108)
Actually, all I said was "arresting".
Even better, because the the Tamimi daughter's guilty plea and sentencing illustrates why these arrests take place.
   529. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:11 AM (#5674109)
13 Inconvenient Truths About What Has Been Happening in Gaza:
The reality is much messier than the partisan echo chambers would have you believe

1. The protests on Monday were not about President Donald Trump moving the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem, and have in fact been occurring weekly on the Gaza border since March. They are part of what the demonstrators have dubbed “The Great March of Return“—return, that is, to what is now Israel. (The Monday demonstration was scheduled months ago to coincide with Nakba Day, an annual occasion of protest; it was later moved up 24 hours to grab some of the media attention devoted to the embassy.)

[...]

6. Hamas manipulated many of these demonstrators into unwittingly rushing the Israeli border fence under false pretenses in order to produce injuries and fatalities. As the New York Times reported, “After midday prayers, clerics and leaders of militant factions in Gaza, led by Hamas, urged thousands of worshipers to join the protests. The fence had already been breached, they said falsely, claiming Palestinians were flooding into Israel.” Similarly, the Washington Post recounted how “organizers urged protesters over loudspeakers to burst through the fence, telling them Israeli soldiers were fleeing their positions, even as they were reinforcing them.” Hamas has also publicly acknowledged deliberately using peaceful civilians at the protests as cover and cannon fodder for their military operations. “When we talk about ‘peaceful resistance,’ we are deceiving the public,” Hamas co-founder Mahmoud al-Zahar told an interviewer. “This is peaceful resistance bolstered by a military force and by security agencies.”

7. A significant number of the protesters were armed, which is how they did things like this: CNN Video showing an Israeli drone being shot down

[...].

10. A lot of what you’re seeing on social media about what is transpiring in Gaza isn’t actually true. For instance, a video of a Palestinian “martyr” allegedly moving under his shroud that is circulating in pro-Israel circles is actually a 4-year old clip from Egypt. Likewise, despite the claims of viral tweets and the Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry that were initially parroted by some in the media, Israel did not actually kill an 8-month old baby with tear gas. The Gazan doctor who treated her told the Associated Press that she died from a preexisting heart condition, a fact belatedly picked up by the New York Times and Los Angeles Times. In the era of fake news, readers should be especially vigilant about resharing unconfirmed content simply because it confirms their biases.
I obviously did not quote the entire piece; many of the bullet points are critical of Israel, though more so in the big picture than in relation to the Gaza violence this week.
   530. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:11 AM (#5674110)
This is the story JE is referring to. It suggests that the FBI went out of its way to be cautious about the Russia investigation during the campaign (among other things, waited on interviews and didn't leak to the press when it was asked about the dossier) because the senior officials on the investigation were worried about being accused of being unfair and thought Clinton would win anyway.

Well, the story is very obviously a leak by those involved in the spying on the Trump campaign to get out ahead of the about to be released Inspector General report. One might ask why they have a need to get out ahead of the IG report?
   531. Lassus Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:16 AM (#5674114)
illustrates why these arrests take place.

Well, it answers why that arrest took place. There certainly are others, and not always of teenagers.

   532. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:16 AM (#5674115)
@greg_doucette:
Here's important context: ICE has admitted to classifying people as MS-13 without any evidence they're actually in the gang, as a way of ensuring they don't get bond during immigration proceedings

We talked about Operation Matador and ICE's overzealous gang designations back in Episode 38 of @fsckemall:

At some point you'd think folks would just accept that the Papaya POTUS is a scumbag thug. This is the same guy who gave a speech this week demanding mandatory death penalties that were ruled unconstitutional back in the 80s.

The new phrase is "Black Identity Extremists" (seriously):

Attorney General Beauregard warned about BIEs just a few days before a bona fide (white) Nazi killed someone in Charlottesville

They're clueless
   533. Count Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:19 AM (#5674117)
The even broader context is that illegal immigration is not a serious problem in this country and Trump started his campaign with racist demagoguery and has continued doing the same #### while in office.
   534. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:19 AM (#5674118)
This is the story JE is referring to. It suggests that the FBI went out of its way to be cautious about the Russia investigation during the campaign (among other things, waited on interviews and didn't leak to the press when it was asked about the dossier) because the senior officials on the investigation were worried about being accused of being unfair and thought Clinton would win anyway. This strategy ended up being unfair to Clinton, as we all know, but it's not like that won them any favors - it's impossible to appease Trump and the conservative base without completely abandoning principle and just working to protect Trump and investigate whatever enemies he points to. By "Horowitz" JE is referring to the Inspector General, who is finishing up a draft of a report on the Clinton email investigation. I suspect like the McCabe investigation it will reveal that the FBI was... unfair to Clinton during the campaign. This will be used, somehow, as evidence that the Russia investigation is out of control.
Back in the real world...

The leakers are now leaking again, hoping to blunt the worst of the shitstorm heading their way.

Remember when the usual suspects here were ROFL when Trump accused Obama of having his administration spy on his campaign? Well, now these leakers openly admit that it indeed spied on the Trump campaign mere weeks before the election. And the evidence as to the grounds for doing so are elusive as ever. That's repugnant ####.

Moreover, the same jokers, who claim Nunes is jeopardizing national security with leaks, are providing still more details (on top of the WaPo story from earlier this month) concerning this top secret source, thereby increasing the chances the individual will be outed. (On a related note, how hysterical that the same folks who have gone out of their way to prevent Congress from receiving information for which it's entitled to have, instead provide these details to friendly reporters?)

And Sally Yates is cited as the senior official who was oh so judicious in handling this investigation? As has been pointed out elsewhere, this is "a bit like asking Putin to reassure us that Russia didn't meddle in our election."
   535. Zonk did it for the children of Russia Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:21 AM (#5674120)
How odd that Zonk ignores the C-SPAN caption:


The clip only shows the very end of the comment & question directed to Trump, but it is clear that it dealt with MS-13 gang members. Again, quite telling that those reporting on Trump's comment tried to obscure that. Even more telling that after that effort was unmasked, Sleazy Hot Wheels and others insist that context doesn't matter, because Trump.


Seems like it ought to be easy, then, to find clips where the words match the caption, doesn't it?

I mean - I could caption a clip of Trump #####-grabbing braggadocio "Donald Trump talks about the importance of not committing sexual assault" but that doesn't change the clip, does it?

   536. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:22 AM (#5674121)
Double post.
   537. Count Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:23 AM (#5674122)
This is the story JE is referring to. It suggests that the FBI went out of its way to be cautious about the Russia investigation during the campaign (among other things, waited on interviews and didn't leak to the press when it was asked about the dossier) because the senior officials on the investigation were worried about being accused of being unfair and thought Clinton would win anyway.

Well, the story is very obviously a leak by those involved in the spying on the Trump campaign to get out ahead of the about to be released Inspector General report. One might ask why they have a need to get out ahead of the IG report?


Possibly because the Kim Strassel / Federalist / Fox News / House Republican moron brigade has been spinning BS about the Russia investigation for ages and trying to give Trump an excuse to shut it down. The IG was critical of McCabe for allegedly lying about a leak related to an anti-Hillary story (yes, yes, he may have just been covering his ass, but it wasn't an anti-Trump action and it related to FBI agents leaking against Hillary, not Trump) and Trump and his defenders still took it as validation.
   538. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:24 AM (#5674123)
Well, it answers why that arrest took place. There certainly are others, and not always of teenagers.
So what's your point? Palestinians don't commit criminal acts?
   539. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:26 AM (#5674126)
Possibly because the Kim Strassel / Federalist / Fox News / House Republican moron brigade has been spinning BS about the Russia investigation for ages and trying to give Trump an excuse to shut it down. The IG was critical of McCabe for allegedly lying about a leak related to an anti-Hillary story (yes, yes, he may have just been covering his ass, but it wasn't an anti-Trump action and it related to FBI agents leaking against Hillary, not Trump) and Trump and his defenders still took it as validation.
The denial is strong with this one.
   540. Lassus Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:32 AM (#5674129)
I obviously did not quote the entire piece; many of the bullet points are critical of Israel, though more so in the big picture than in relation to the Gaza violence this week.

David is not obliged in any way to reprint the points critical of Israel, and he does himself credit by acknowledging they are actually there.

A massive part of the trouble is that no one can give up anything. Pro-Palestine groups can't admit where Israel can defend itself against Hamas and others, pro-Israeli groups can't admit where Israel might not actually be 1000% correct on every last action taken regarding Palestine.

Ugh. Turning into Howie is like my worst nightmare. I need to start drinking.
   541. tshipman Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:34 AM (#5674132)
Remember when the usual suspects here were ROFL when Trump accused Obama of having his administration spy on his campaign? Well, now these leakers openly admit that it indeed spied on the Trump campaign mere weeks before the election. And the evidence as to the grounds for doing so are elusive as ever. That's repugnant ####.


What on earth are you talking about?

1. A law enforcement investigation is not spying.
2. I don't even know what you're referring to when you say "these leakers openly admit that [they] indeed spied on the Trump campaign"
   542. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:35 AM (#5674133)
The even broader context is that illegal immigration is not a serious problem in this country and Trump started his campaign with racist demagoguery and has continued doing the same #### while in office.

QFT. And people like JE and Clapper won't even acknowledge this. Just imagine if Trump used his inflammatory rhetoric against Jews, instead of just inviting a trio of flaming anti-semites to speak at his embassy photo-op in Jerusalem.
   543. Lassus Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:37 AM (#5674136)
So what's your point? Palestinians don't commit criminal acts?

Of course. That was exactly my point when I already said, twice, that many Palestinians are dangers to Israel and Israelis, and Israel deserves to defend it's border against invading Palestinians. You pegged my real purposes about the innocence of Palestinian adults when I asked about pre-teens being arrested by soldiers.

See above.
   544. Jess Franco Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:42 AM (#5674139)
Lassus, the short answer is that decades of occupation have had a horrible effect on Israel. They are also intensely defensive so they and their defenders often dig in instead of trying to fix things, in part because a lot of criticism of Israel as a country is disproportionate and focuses on whether there should be a jewish state in Israel at all, not on their specific actions and the occupation, and they face real threats in their neighborhood and of course had decades of terrorism.


Israel has every right to defend itself. It has no right to place permanent settlements in Palestinian territory. It also has the duty to spy on the US and to buy up our political process so that no pol can afford to be critical of Israel in the slightest. I'm not even concerned about the Israeli spies caught cheering the attacks on 9/11 along the Hudson, attacks that worked in favor of Israeli national interests.

But I also have no problem with US citizens taking recourse to BDS and the like to apply political pressure from the other side. That the US bankrolls Israel with billions of taxpayer dollars more than gives any US citizen the right to have a say in what's going on in Israel, particularly in regard to the takeover of Palestinian land and water.
   545. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:43 AM (#5674140)

Remember when the usual suspects here were ROFL when Trump accused Obama of having his administration spy on his campaign? Well, now these leakers openly admit that it indeed spied on the Trump campaign mere weeks before the election. And the evidence as to the grounds for doing so are elusive as ever. That's repugnant ####.
No; you're using vague language to obscure the details. What Trump said was not that someone "spied on" his campaign -- a term general enough that you used it earlier this week to encompass someone talking to people who worked for the campaign. What Trump actually said was "Terrible! Just found out that Obama had my 'wires tapped' in Trump Tower just before the victory." There is still no evidence that this ever happened, and IIRC the WH eventually admitted that it didn't.
   546. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:45 AM (#5674146)
Since JE wasn't around when I first posted this little item yesterday, I wonder if he has any comment on it:

Russia favored Trump in 2016, Senate panel says, breaking with House GOP
The Senate Intelligence Committee has determined that the intelligence community was correct in assessing that Russia meddled in the 2016 U.S. election with the aim of helping then-candidate Donald Trump, contradicting findings House Republicans reached last month.

“Our staff concluded that the [intelligence community’s] conclusions were accurate and on point,” the panel’s vice chairman, Sen. Mark R. Warner (D-Va.), said Wednesday in a joint statement with Sen. Richard Burr (R-N.C.), its chairman. “The Russian effort was extensive, sophisticated, and ordered by President Putin himself for the purpose of helping Donald Trump and hurting Hillary Clinton,” Warner continued.

But that last determination — that Russia intended to help Trump — sets up a clash within the GOP over which record of events is most accurate, a dispute that could complicate the party’s messaging surrounding the Russia investigations as it heads into the 2018 election season. While the House Republicans’ report also concurred with the bulk of the intelligence community’s findings about Russian meddling, it accused officials of not following their own best practices in determining that Moscow hoped Trump would win. ...

Emphasis added. Feel free to go to either Devin Nunes' press secretary or the Daily Caller if you need to get the correct talking points to refute Senator Burr.
   547. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:45 AM (#5674147)
Speaking about the Mueller investigative team, Rudy Guiliani unironically assesses the skill sets of other attorneys:
They won't answer Congress on how much money this is costing the American people. It's costing us a fortune! Maybe these guys, you know, figure they can’t get a good job.
   548. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:46 AM (#5674148)
1. A law enforcement investigation is not spying.
That's what you're going with? A play on words? Hysterical.

The last administration used elements of our intel, diplomatic, and law enforcement, as well as political oppo research and foreign intel, to manufacture a surveillance campaign on the Trump people, and kept all of this hidden from Congress:

They included:

Wiretaps.
National security letters.
A government informant inside the campaign.
Perhaps another outside the campaign but close to someone inside.

Not to worry though:

Folks will be indicted.
Folks will be convicted.
   549. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:46 AM (#5674149)

Speaking about the Mueller investigative team, Rudy Guiliani unironically assesses the skill sets of other attorneys:
I think what you meant to say was that "The now-unemployed Rudy Guiliani unironically assesses the skill sets of other attorneys..."
   550. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:47 AM (#5674150)
#534:
The leakers are now leaking again, hoping to blunt the worst of the shitstorm heading their way.


Oooh, winter is coming. Winter is coming. Winter is always coming. At least on "Game of Thrones," it only took seven years to get here.
   551. Lassus Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:51 AM (#5674158)
They won't answer Congress on how much money this is costing the American people. It's costing us a fortune!

Finally something we can actually blame on Hillary. Sort of.
   552. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:52 AM (#5674159)
Seems like it ought to be easy, then, to find clips where the words match the caption, doesn't it?

So, Zonk is now implying that C-SPAN is mischarcterizing Trump's remarks? Not those who claimed the remarks were about illegal immigrants generally? I'm not sure why you guys want to keep reinforcing how far you're willing to go to Get Trump, but let's go to the transcript:
SHERIFF MIMS: And I appreciated Mr. Homan and ICE. We had a great relationship; we still do. But now ICE is the only law enforcement agency that cannot use our databases to find the bad guys. They cannot come in and talk to people in our jail, unless they reach a certain threshold. They can’t do all kinds of things that other law enforcement agencies can do. And it’s really put us in a very bad position.

THE PRESIDENT: It’s a disgrace. Okay? It’s a disgrace.

SHERIFF MIMS: It’s a disgrace.

THE PRESIDENT: And we’re suing on that, and we’re working hard, and I think it will all come together, because people want it to come together. It’s so ridiculous. The concept that we’re even talking about is ridiculous. We’ll take care of it, Margaret. We’ll win.

SHERIFF MIMS: Thank you. There could be an MS-13 member I know about — if they don’t reach a certain threshold, I cannot tell ICE about it.

THE PRESIDENT: We have people coming into the country, or trying to come in — and we’re stopping a lot of them — but we’re taking people out of the country. You wouldn’t believe how bad these people are. These aren’t people. These are animals. And we’re taking them out of the country at a level and at a rate that’s never happened before. And because of the weak laws, they come in fast, we get them, we release them, we get them again, we bring them out. It’s crazy. [emphasis added]

It's clear that Trump was responding to the Sheriff's concerns about gang members and others already incarcerated, not illegal immigrants in general. Funny how the reporting couldn't get that right, and some now claim accuracy doesn't matter, because Trump.
   553. tshipman Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:53 AM (#5674160)
Folks will be indicted.
Folks will be convicted.


Well, yes.

Mueller has already indicted and convicted some people.

But don't worry, there's more to come!

As for the rest of your conspiracy mongering ... yeesh. Good luck with that.
   554. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:54 AM (#5674162)
No; you're using vague language to obscure the details. What Trump said was not that someone "spied on" his campaign -- a term general enough that you used it earlier this week to encompass someone talking to people who worked for the campaign. What Trump actually said was "Terrible! Just found out that Obama had my 'wires tapped' in Trump Tower just before the victory." There is still no evidence that this ever happened, and IIRC the WH eventually admitted that it didn't.
Feel free to die on that hill, David. Four members of Trump's campaign was indeed under surveillance. And how funny that, right after then-NSA Director Rogers met with POTUS-E, the meetings at Trump Tower came to an abrupt end and all transition work was moved to Jersey.
   555. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:58 AM (#5674168)
But don't worry, there's more to come!

As for the rest of your conspiracy mongering ... yeesh. Good luck with that.
Yeah, we're now seeing who the real nutters are.
   556. Lassus Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:58 AM (#5674169)
And how funny that, after then-NSA Director Rogers met with POTUS-E, the meetings at Trump Tower came to an abrupt end and all transition work was moved to a pizza place popular with kids in Jersey.
   557. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:01 PM (#5674171)
A law enforcement investigation is not spying.

The incumbent administration used its candidate's [possibly phony] political opposition research to sic the FBI & intelligence agaencies on the opposition party presidential campaign. Yeah, no spying there. LOL. And did anyone notice what the NYT buried in the final paragraphs (of course!) of that story? That almost two years in, there was still no evidence of collusion.
   558. PepTech Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:05 PM (#5674176)
JE, hypothetically, if Lee Atwater had been under some sort of investigation by the FBI, should they have stopped their surveillance when he was doing campaign-related stuff? Would that surveillance be considered "spying on the campaign"?
   559. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:07 PM (#5674177)
#557, Yankee Clapper to tshipman:
A law enforcement investigation is not spying.

The incumbent administration used its candidate's [possibly phony] political opposition research to sic the FBI & intelligence agaencies on the opposition party presidential campaign. Yeah, no spying there. LOL. And did anyone notice what the NYT buried in the final paragraphs (of course!) of that story? Almost two years in, and no evidence of collusion.

No, everything tshipman said about the definitional difference between a law enforcement operation and spying was correct. For some reason, rather than admit that, Yankee Clapper selectively cites one small section of a New York Times article (with no link, yet again), while misstating the actions of the previous administration. The Mueller investigation has tightened noticeably, when measured from the start of the year or two months ago. Smoke & mirrors doesn't change that.
   560. BDC Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:08 PM (#5674179)
Actually, Clapper, you eroded your point a bit by going to the full transcript in #552. I was going to give Trump the benefit of the doubt, but you made it clearer that Trump wasn't focusing on specific gangsters, just launching into one of his boilerplate xenophobic rants.
   561. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:17 PM (#5674186)
Yeah, we're now seeing who the real nutters are.

Yeah, and it couldn't possibly be President Tweet. He's the lone voice of sanity amidst all this cacaphony.
   562. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:17 PM (#5674187)
JE, hypothetically, if Lee Atwater had been under some sort of investigation by the FBI, should they have stopped their surveillance when he was doing campaign-related stuff? Would that surveillance be considered "spying on the campaign"?
Where do I or anyone else suggest that working on a campaign makes you immune from a bona fide investigation? What we're seeing here is that this investigation was predicated on flimsy, if not fabricated evidence, conducted improperly, and Congress was never informed.
   563. Lassus Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:18 PM (#5674188)
Actually, Clapper, you eroded your point a bit by going to the full transcript in #552. I was going to give Trump the benefit of the doubt, but you made it clearer that Trump wasn't focusing on specific gangsters, just launching into one of his boilerplate xenophobic rants.

NICE WORK, SHEEPLE #AlwaysTrump
   564. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:22 PM (#5674189)

It's clear that Trump was responding to the Sheriff's concerns about gang members and others already incarcerated, not illegal immigrants in general. Funny how the reporting couldn't get that right, and some now claim accuracy doesn't matter, because Trump.
I don't think that's at all clear. That's a charitable interpretation of what he said, and for some people I'd be inclined to give the benefit of the doubt. But Trump hasn't earned the right to that benefit.

It's true that Mims made a reference to MS-13, and Trump was responding to Mims. But Trump's semi-coherent rambling did not appear to be distinguishing between MS-13 and other "people coming into the country," and he has routinely in the past conflated the two. Based on the entire oeuvre of his immigration 'policy' over the past three years, Trump honestly seems to believe (I assume based on what he heard from Hannity, since we know Trump doesn't read), that the bulk of illegals are criminals, drug dealers, rapists, gang members. ("And some, I assume, are good people.")
   565. Zonk did it for the children of Russia Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:23 PM (#5674190)
House Republican moron brigade


Chaff and intrigue, Chaff and intrigue
Chaff and intrigue onward!
All in the back of Uber
Rode the Nunes Blunderer
Forward, the moron brigade!
Charge for the sons, he said
In the back of an Uber
Rode the Nunes Blunderer

Forward the moron brigade!
Was there any ethics displayed?
No, not with this fine crew
While Trump does plunder
Theirs only to comply
Theirs not to wonder why
Theirs but to mewl and lie
In the back of an Uber
Rode the Nunes Blunderer

Ne'er Trump to the right of them
FakeNews to the left of them
Mueller in front of them
Folly and Blunder
Warmed over rot and smell
Incognito he rode,
in the back of an uber
to find what to sell
rode the Nunes Blunderer

Trashed all their morals there
Trashed as they howled hot air
A trashing so stunning and rare
Enlarging the smarmy
While the big orange thundered
Wallowing in that which he broke
Right down the line they spoke
Cossack and Russian
Concealed in covering smoke
flattered and plundered
Then he rode back, but not in an uber
Not Nunes the blunderer

Ne'er Trump to the right of them
FakeNews to the left of them
Mueller in front of them
Folly and Blunder
Warmed over rot and smell
Nunes and Cohen-Watnick
knew what they had to sell
to protect their orange Macbeth
They'd banish any truth to hell
All that was left of them
Bereft and dissundered

They did what their master bade
Oh, the uber ride Devin had made!
So the master could plunder away
Honor the scourge they did aid
Honor the moron brigade!
   566. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:25 PM (#5674194)
North Korea talk:

Robert Lipscy, Stanford and Newspicks:
"This is textbook North Korean diplomacy. If talks fall apart because of U.S. missteps, China has a solid pretext to ease sanctions, and South Korea is now much more likely to oppose U.S. military action. Kim has already achieved his most important objectives.

North Korea has already broken the solidarity behind U.S. sanctions by warming relations with China and South Korea. At this point, if they can walk away from U.S. negotiations and put the blame on Trump, they've achieved victory."



Vipin Narang, speaking to Business Insider:
"There are two extremely unlikely outcomes" for the summit between Trump and Kim Jong Un, said Vipin Narang, a North Korea expert at MIT. The first unlikely outcome, Narang told Business Insider, is that "Trump walks away with Kim's nuclear weapons," and the second is "catastrophic failure."

Narang said that more likely, Kim and Trump will partake in a photo shoot with handshakes and kind words. In that scenario, the U.S. would accept some mixture of half measures to slowly wind down North Korea's nuclear programs while providing them with sanctions relief — much like the deals that have previously failed. ...If both parties go in with flawed expectations for the summit, as it appears from public statements they have, the talks could end very badly.

"Kim's strategy is smart," Narang said, referring to the vague promises of denuclearization from North Korea. "If it looks like Trump is the one walking away, then it looks like Kim wins." If Kim leaves the summit saying Trump spoiled the deal, then the temperature on the Korean Peninsula goes up "astronomically," Narang said.
   567. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:28 PM (#5674196)
Emphasis added. Feel free to go to either Devin Nunes' press secretary or the Daily Caller if you need to get the correct talking points to refute Senator Burr.
I don't know how the panel arrived at that conclusion but maybe they'll show all work and then I'll review.

Regardless of Russia's ultimate motive, it's the process that interests me way more:
Former CIA Director John Brennan’s insistence that the salacious and unverified Steele dossier was not part of the official Intelligence Community Assessment on Russian interference in the 2016 election is being contradicted by two top former officials.

Recently retired National Security Agency Director Michael Rogers stated in a classified letter to Congress that the Clinton campaign-funded memos did factor into the ICA. And James Clapper, Director of National Intelligence under President Obama, conceded in a recent CNN interview that the assessment was based on “some of the substantive content of the dossier.” Without elaborating, he maintained that “we were able to corroborate” certain allegations.

These accounts are at odds with Brennan’s May 2017 testimony before the House Intelligence Committee that the Steele dossier was "not in any way used as the basis for the intelligence community's assessment" that Russia interfered in the election to help elect Donald Trump. Brennan has repeated this claim numerous times, including in February on “Meet the Press.”

In a March 5, 2018, letter to House Intelligence Committee Chairman Devin Nunes, Adm. Rogers informed the committee that a two-page summary of the dossier — described as “the Christopher Steele information” — was “added” as an “appendix to the ICA draft,” and that consideration of that appendix was “part of the overall ICA review/approval process.”

His skepticism of the dossier may explain why the NSA parted company with other intelligence agencies and cast doubt on one of its crucial conclusions: that Vladimir Putin personally ordered a cyberattack on Hillary Clinton’s campaign to help Donald Trump win the White House.

Rogers has testified that while he was sure the Russians wanted to hurt Clinton, he wasn't as confident as CIA and FBI officials that their actions were designed to help Trump, explaining that such as assessment "didn't have the same level of sourcing and the same level of multiple sources.”
A while back, you cited Brennan as being above reproach. Instead, we're watching what's left of his reputation go down the tubes, and deservedly so.
   568. PepTech Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:31 PM (#5674200)
JE, hypothetically, if Lee Atwater had been under some sort of investigation by the FBI, should they have stopped their surveillance when he was doing campaign-related stuff? Would that surveillance be considered "spying on the campaign"?

Where do I or anyone else suggest that working on a campaign makes you immune from a bona fide investigation? What we're seeing here is that this investigation was predicated on flimsy, if not fabricated evidence, conducted improperly, and Congress was never informed.
So if it turns out there was legit evidence - which I don't know if there will, I'm just saying - then the righteous indignation loses a bit of steam, yes?
   569. Zonk did it for the children of Russia Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:35 PM (#5674202)
"Kim's strategy is smart,"


Ugh.

No, it's not. It's entirely predictable and stupid.

It just so happens some people have seen fit to put an honest-to-goodness idiot in the oval office that would be laughably prone to falling prey to an entirely predictable and stupid gambit.

Hell, even an honest-to-goodness idiot could have avoided it with just the slightest bit of listening to people that I'm sure were screaming this was one obvious way this could - and probably would - go.

   570. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:37 PM (#5674203)
So if it turns out there was legit evidence - which I don't know if there will, I'm just saying - then the righteous indignation loses a bit of steam, yes?
It had better be done by the book, every step of the way.
   571. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:38 PM (#5674206)
AP tweet:
AP has deleted a tweet from late Wednesday on Trump’s “animals” comment about immigrants because it wasn’t made clear that he was speaking after a comment about gang members.
It's over. Better luck next time, fellas.
   572. PepTech Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:40 PM (#5674208)
It had better be done by the book, every step of the way.
Agreed. Any actual witch hunt would be ruinous. Absent all the rhetoric (which doesn't leave much - speaking here of life and the media in general right now!), what would be your sense of Mueller's likelihood of doing it by the book? Given what we actually know of the man.
   573. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:40 PM (#5674209)
Your nutterdom now encompasses the vocal defense of a savage gang?


There was a time when I thought it worthwhile to try to correct your obvious errors and stupidity. That time has passed.
   574. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:41 PM (#5674210)
So if it turns out there was legit evidence - which I don't know if there will, I'm just saying - then the righteous indignation loses a bit of steam, yes?

It had better be done by the book, every step of the way.


The only book you've ever cared about is "The Big Book of Juanaboutism"
   575. Lassus Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:43 PM (#5674215)
It's over. Better luck next time, fellas.

#AlwaysTrump
   576. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:43 PM (#5674216)
First poll after the primary is out for the Indiana Senate race - Mike Braun leads incumbent Democratic Senator Joe Donnelly 47% - 46%.
   577. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:44 PM (#5674218)
Re: #569--
I assume Narang means "smart" as in "likely to succeed," not smart as in "magnificently ingenious and complex." Especially since this isn't North Korea's first rodeo, or their 31st rodeo. Setting fire to the negotiating table is what they do.

It's not smart for a baseball pitcher to aim at the dirt two feet off the plate, but when Alfonso Soriano was batting, it became "smart."

Just a little over four months until the Nobel Peace Prize announcement. The suspense is delicious!
   578. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:45 PM (#5674219)
It's over. Better luck next time, fellas.


Cockholster gonna cockholster.
   579. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:46 PM (#5674221)
Agreed. Any actual witch hunt would be ruinous. Absent all the rhetoric (which doesn't leave much - speaking here of life and the media in general right now!), what would be your sense of Mueller's likelihood of doing it by the book? Given what we actually know of the man.
I have mixed feelings about Mueller. He's an experienced and capable prosecutor, albeit with a few noteworthy blemishes on his record. My concern is that he was the wrong man for the job. There's no way in hell someone who's had a close professional and solid personal relationship with Comey should be involved in this inquiry. I'm hopeful that hasn't tangibly affected his performance.
   580. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:47 PM (#5674225)
Now Brennan's on the firing line. Anyone who doesn't suck the orange is suddenly deplorable to Juan. It's almost like he's gone completely ######### on us.
   581. Zonk did it for the children of Russia Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:49 PM (#5674228)
It's over. Better luck next time, fellas.


Does it honestly make you proud to be contorting yourself every which way to reformulate the unending stream of un-American #### your guy says into various "less bad" interpretations?

I'm genuinely curious.

Do you really think some automated "not the language I'd have used" or whatever really functions as some of get-out-of-shitbaggery free card?

Doubtless every public person on both sides of the aisle has had the occasion to say something open to accusations of this, that or the other - those statements get picked apart, contextualized, etc. But FFS, this guy?

Does that little voice most people have inside of them that whispers "this is wrong. I shouldn't side with this." still exist? Or did you just shoot it out on 5th avenue to avoid the bother?
   582. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:56 PM (#5674235)
@davidfrum:
Trying to wrap my head around the claim that it somehow reflects badly on Obama that Trump's campaign was so riddled with agents of foreign powers that FBI felt compelled to investigate.

@davidafrench:
So, the Senate transcripts indicate that Don Jr. tried to collude and was disappointed when the meeting didn't yield what he wanted. When a person so clearly demonstrates malign intent, it's hardly a "witch hunt" to discern whether he ever followed through.
   583. PepTech Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:57 PM (#5674236)
AP tweet:
AP has deleted a tweet from late Wednesday on Trump’s “animals” comment about immigrants because it wasn’t made clear that he was speaking after a comment about gang members.
It's over. Better luck next time, fellas.
I would say this provides us with a fine use case of both TDS and "anti-TDS" overreactions.

In this particular case, the story was TDS.

It's not implausible that Trump would say something like that about immigrants generally. In fact, he did, right at the start of campaign.

It's highly predictable, at this point, that this example of TDS will be used fifteen thousand times to excuse something legitimately stupid Trump does going forward.

I think everyone agrees - I know JE and RDP have both gone on record here - that Trump does a ton of stupid things. He's not as pervasively stupid as he is portrayed by "the left". The question is whether one is willing to put up with the stupid in favor of getting certain results. For YC, it's all about the judiciary, so bring on the stupid. Others have a higher or lower stupid threshold, sort of like the Yanni/Laurel thing.

Then of course the stupid gets caught up in partisanship, which is increasingly alarming. Stupid shouldn't be conflated with party loyalty. What was said about McCain was stupid, and Trump and his administration have handled it stupidly, and anyone defending it is stupid. Similarly, just to pick a low-hanging fruit, Spicer's debut regarding crowd size. I said at the time it was a dumb thing to argue about, but particularly dumb because if he couldn't be honest about THAT, how could we ever trust anything he says, about anything? And look where we are now. The stupid need to excuse Trump for the actual stupid things he does is just as insidious a threat as "TDS".

And yes, it is admirable (in this case) for the AP tweet to be exposed as TDS. Vigilance is good. Blinders in the service of partisanship, on either side, are not.
   584. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:01 PM (#5674239)
Does it honestly make you proud to be contorting yourself every which way to reformulate the unending stream of un-American #### your guy says into various "less bad" interpretations?
Riddle me this: If Trump is truly CH, why are you and several others here routinely caught lying, misleading, and wildly exaggerating about comments he makes? Why not stick to mocking what's unambiguously true?

FFS, some of you now come across as defenders of MS-13.
   585. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:01 PM (#5674240)
Does it honestly make you proud to be contorting yourself every which way to reformulate the unending stream of un-American #### your guy says into various "less bad" interpretations?

If C-SPAN & the Associated Press disagree with your characterization, maybe you're the one who got it wrong.
   586. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:04 PM (#5674242)
Now Brennan's on the firing line. Anyone who doesn't suck the orange is suddenly deplorable to Juan. It's almost like he's gone completely ######### on us.

At this point, Trump could just adopt "Die Ziele Der Nationalsozialisten" as the party platform, in the original German, and JE and YC will swallow it whole, and defend it to the bitter end.
   587. Zonk did it for the children of Russia Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:06 PM (#5674243)
I would say this provides us with a fine use case of both TDS and "anti-TDS" overreactions.

In this particular case, the story was TDS.

It's not implausible that Trump would say something like that about immigrants generally. In fact, he did, right at the start of campaign.

It's highly predictable, at this point, that this example of TDS will be used fifteen thousand times to excuse something legitimately stupid Trump does going forward.

I think everyone agrees - I know JE and RDP have both gone on record here - that Trump does a ton of stupid things. He's not as pervasively stupid as he is portrayed by "the left". The question is whether one is willing to put up with the stupid in favor of getting certain results. For YC, it's all about the judiciary, so bring on the stupid. Others have a higher or lower stupid threshold, sort of like the Yanni/Laurel thing.

Then of course the stupid gets caught up in partisanship, which is increasingly alarming. Stupid shouldn't be conflated with party loyalty. What was said about McCain was stupid, and Trump and his administration have handled it stupidly, and anyone defending it is stupid. Similarly, just to pick a low-hanging fruit, Spicer's debut regarding crowd size. I said at the time it was a dumb thing to argue about, but particularly dumb because if he couldn't be honest about THAT, how could we ever trust anything he says, about anything? And look where we are now. The stupid need to excuse Trump for the actual stupid things he does is just as insidious a threat as "TDS".

And yes, it is admirable (in this case) for the AP tweet to be exposed as TDS. Vigilance is good. Blinders in the service of partisanship, on either side, are not.


You're missing a key point here, though.

Namely, when has Trump ever shown any kind of interest in the specifics of a question (well, unless the question is about him)?

Sure - all politicians (and all executives) are well-versed in answering the question they want to answer; not the question they were actually asked.

TPM has both the transcript and the video - and if you really and truly believe that Trump's intention, that Trump was carefully listening and was only/specifically riffing on MS-13.... I've got a Trump Tower investment to sell you.
   588. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:06 PM (#5674244)
FFS, some of you now come across as defenders of MS-13.

Wrong. How do you live with yourself?
   589. BDC Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:08 PM (#5674245)
wildly exaggerating about comments he makes

But that's just it; I don't think we are. If Trump had gone on to say "Yes, look at Juan Nefario and Julio Badguyo and the other recently-deported members of this gang that I've at least read something about, they're animals," then fair enough. But Trump knows no more about MS-13 than I do. He's just rambling on about his usual bogeymen, as so many wannabe dictators of the past have run on about people they wanted to demonize.


EDIT Cokes all round
   590. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:09 PM (#5674246)
So, the Senate transcripts indicate that Don Jr. tried to collude and was disappointed when the meeting didn't yield what he wanted. When a person so clearly demonstrates malign intent, it's hardly a "witch hunt" to discern whether he ever followed through.
Sigh. What DJTJr did wasn't the least bit illegal. Moreover, note that neither he nor Jared nor Manafort had any interest in discussing, let alone supporting Russia's attempt to gut the Magnitsky law.
   591. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:13 PM (#5674254)
TPM has both the transcript and the video - and if you really and truly believe that Trump's intention, that Trump was carefully listening and was only/specifically riffing on MS-13.... I've got a Trump Tower investment to sell you.
Just a thought: You can ask pointed questions of Trump and his thoughts about low-skilled immigrants while not making asses out of yourselves on this particular matter.
   592. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:14 PM (#5674256)
If Trump had gone on to say "Yes, look at Juan


That's the dream. That's why he's been honing his holstering skills so vigorously to overcome his brief flirtation with apostasy during the campaign.
   593. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:15 PM (#5674258)
But Trump knows no more about MS-13 than I do

That seems unlikely.
   594. Zonk did it for the children of Russia Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:15 PM (#5674259)
Riddle me this: If Trump is truly CH, why are you and several others here routinely caught lying, misleading, and wildly exaggerating about comments he makes? Why not stick to mocking what's unambiguously true?


Maybe the same reason one answers a question with a question.

You honestly think it was a "wild exaggeration"?

SHERIFF MIMS: Thank you. There could be an MS-13 member I know about — if they don’t reach a certain threshold, I cannot tell ICE about it.

THE PRESIDENT: We have people coming into the country, or trying to come in — and we’re stopping a lot of them — but we’re taking people out of the country. You wouldn’t believe how bad these people are. These aren’t people. These are animals. And we’re taking them out of the country at a level and at a rate that’s never happened before. And because of the weak laws, they come in fast, we get them, we release them, we get them again, we bring them out. It’s crazy.


This isn't a trial. Prior statements are not inadmissible. We're likewise - as I said in 587 - able to examine Trump's statements in the context of the many, many, many questions he's "answered" before.

If C-SPAN & the Associated Press disagree with your characterization, maybe you're the one who got it wrong.


I "get it wrong", you get internet points.

You "get it wrong", well...

I sleep fine at night. How do you sleep, given that among ALL of the Trumpkins - you're probably the only one that has never, ever been anything but exceedingly loyal to Trump.

Has there ever been even the slightest occasion or incident where you've even come within shouting distance of criticism of him?
   595. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:15 PM (#5674260)
AP has deleted a tweet from late Wednesday on Trump’s “animals” comment about immigrants because it wasn’t made clear that he was speaking after a comment about gang members.
Note: AP correctly did not say in this tweet that Trump was speaking about gang members. Rather, it accurately says that he was speaking after a comment about gang members.
   596. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:16 PM (#5674263)
But Trump knows no more about MS-13 than I do.
And yet, thanks to Trump highlighting the issue, the public is now well aware of the scourge that is MS-13, something that was kept under wraps in the prior administration.
   597. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:17 PM (#5674264)
FFS, some of you now come across as defenders of MS-13.


No one here has defended MS-13. Jason simply can't read for comprehension.
   598. Zonk did it for the children of Russia Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:18 PM (#5674265)
Just a thought: You can ask pointed questions of Trump and his thoughts about low-skilled immigrants while not making asses out of yourselves on this particular matter.


Gee, thanks for your permission.

I'll file that one in the ever-expanding file of un-American things.
   599. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:18 PM (#5674266)
sort of like the Yanni/Laurel thing.
Just to be clear, PT: You do know this Internet dust-up isn't about new age music?
   600. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:19 PM (#5674267)
That seems unlikely.


Trump knows nothing about anything. It's 100% likely that he knows less about MS-13 than a third grader shitting their pants.
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