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Monday, May 14, 2018

OTP 2018 May 14: Political leadership, fans needed to bring baseball to Portland: Guest opinion

Today I’m not writing to promote the virtues of Major League Baseball or Portland as a baseball city. I’m writing from the perspective of one who worked on the last successful effort to bring a professional sports team to town—the Portland Timbers—and as someone who has worked in state and local politics for nearly 30 years. Few situations are fraught with as much politics as bringing a professional sports team to a community. If you look closely at cities that have experienced these debates, you’ll often find a combustible mix of political, financial and cultural issues that run deep and can linger for years.

 

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 14, 2018 at 07:28 AM | 1370 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: boondoggle, new stadium, off topic, politics, portland

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   601. PepTech Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:20 PM (#5674269)
Moreover, note that neither he nor Jared nor Manafort had any interest in discussing, let alone supporting Russia's attempt to gut the Magnitsky law.
I'm not sure that helps your case. Jared may not understand the Magnitsky laws; it's hard to tell. If his sole interest was getting Clinton dirt, regardless of the methods/sources, that's grist for the TDS mill.
What DJTJr did wasn't the least bit illegal
Probably not, as it turned out. But the indications are he was *willing* to do illegal things, perhaps out of ignorance, perhaps not, in service of what he (and/or his father?) considered a higher purpose. *THAT* is worth investigating, because maybe there's other stuff out there. I note you omitted Manafort from the "not illegal" part.
   602. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:20 PM (#5674270)
Trump's "knowledge" of MS-13 is probably on par with his "knowledge" about the Central Park 5.

Patterns and all that...
   603. PreservedFish Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:23 PM (#5674274)
Poking my head in here with a small note regarding the several past conversations on the optionally homeless. Just met a woman that explained her missing teeth the following way: "For a decade I was recreationally homeless."
   604. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:23 PM (#5674275)

I have mixed feelings about Mueller. He's an experienced and capable prosecutor, albeit with a few noteworthy blemishes on his record. My concern is that he was the wrong man for the job. There's no way in hell someone who's had a close professional and solid personal relationship with Comey should be involved in this inquiry. I'm hopeful that hasn't tangibly affected his performance.
Mueller's inquiry is not the fake one about whether someone said something mean about Trump in a text to his girlfriend. Mueller's inquiry is about whether Trump colluded with Russia. I could see a conflict between Mueller's relationship with Comey and the former investigation that Hannity et al. wish were happening; I don't see a conflict between Mueller's relationship with Comey and the latter investigation.

Moreover, it would seem difficult to find a person qualified to handle an investigation of this magnitude who doesn't have any sort of relationship with Comey, given that the guy was a USA, DAG, and FBI Director.
   605. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:24 PM (#5674276)
Gee, thanks for your permission.


It's pretty interesting that Juan says there are ways to criticize Trumpistan and it's ###########, but it's always some way other than anyone who actually criticizes him says, because they're all "deranged," and Juan can't be bothered to come up with a valid criticism himself for all the #### in that holster.
   606. Lassus Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:24 PM (#5674277)
And yet, thanks to Trump highlighting the issue, the public is now well aware of the scourge that is MS-13, something that was kept under wraps in the prior administration.

Holy shit.
   607. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:25 PM (#5674278)
@davidafrench:

So, the Senate transcripts indicate that Don Jr. tried to collude and was disappointed when the meeting didn't yield what he wanted. When a person so clearly demonstrates malign intent, it's hardly a "witch hunt" to discern whether he ever followed through.
Not to mention that the evidence that the meeting didn't yield what he wanted is based solely on the (we now know) coordinated statements of the people there. "Let's all agree to say that it was about adoption."
   608. PepTech Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:26 PM (#5674280)
Yeah, JE, sorry, can't buy what you're selling here. Trump has shown no indication that he's aware of any details beyond the letters "MS", the number "13", and "bad".

I'm willing to be corrected, here, but Trump is practically proud of being famous for not sweating the details. He'll just build the wall, seems like a good idea. He'll just fix health care, it can't be that complicated. The Ball kid was let out of China - to Trump there's no broader picture or potential Xi scheming, it's because of TRUMP and his AMAZINGNESS!
And yet, thanks to Trump highlighting the issue, the public is now well aware of the scourge that is MS-13
Someone is really sucking down the Kool-Aid here. At least, let's call it Kool-Aid, to be polite.
   609. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:26 PM (#5674281)
Holy ####.


He's gone, man. Just acknowledge that he's not salvagable any longer.
   610. Lassus Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:30 PM (#5674284)
2012: MS-13 gang labeled transnational criminal group, a first for US street gang
Washington — For the first time, a street gang operating in the United States has been officially designated a transnational criminal organization, empowering officials to more aggressively target the group, Mara Salvatrucha MS-13, which engages in the drug, sex, and human trafficking trades.

MS-13 is an El Salvador-based gang that over three decades has developed into a violent criminal force from Los Angeles to Washington, D.C.

Naming the gang a transnational criminal organization suggests how the group has evolved from being primarily a criminal element in Central American immigrant communities to a regional organized crime network delving into a range of illegal markets, experts in North and Central American crime patterns say.

The designation, announced by the Treasury Department Thursday, aims at shutting down MS-13’s financial operations, which have grown increasingly sophisticated as the gang has matured from its roots in Los Angeles among young Salvadoran refugees escaping their country’s civil war in the 1980’s.
   611. spycake Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:31 PM (#5674285)
Am I the only one here who is uncomfortable with the animals quote, even with the gang context? I could accept any number of descriptions of them, but saying "they are not people, they are animals" is a line that should not be crossed, even rhetorically.
   612. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:38 PM (#5674290)
And yet, thanks to Trump highlighting the issue, the public is now well aware of the scourge that is MS-13, something that was kept under wraps in the prior administration.

Holy ####.


From murder to sex trafficking and all sorts of sundry crimes in between - nobody doubts MS-13 as pure malevolence.

However, per the FBI's own estimate - there are about 10,000 MS-13 members in the US, a relative fraction of the estimated 1.4 million gang-members nationwide.

As a point of comparison - the ADL puts the total membership of the Ku Klux Klan (specifically, not counting any other various groups) at about 3500. The SPLC says 6000.

The DOJ says there are about 2500 members of the Hells Angels in the US.

   613. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:38 PM (#5674291)
Am I the only one here who is uncomfortable with the animals quote, even with the gang context?


No, you are not alone. It's repulsive.

edit: And it's far from clear that he was referring only to the gang members. the quote:

THE PRESIDENT: We have people coming into the country, or trying to come in — and we’re stopping a lot of them — but we’re taking people out of the country. You wouldn’t believe how bad these people are. These aren’t people. These are animals. And we’re taking them out of the country at a level and at a rate that’s never happened before. And because of the weak laws, they come in fast, we get them, we release them, we get them again, we bring them out. It’s crazy.


Minus the animals part, that's bog standard Trump rhetoric about illegal immigration/border security. And while he hasn't used the term "animal" before in this context (that I know of), he has used the words criminals, rapists, murderers. But the rest is straight out of his stump speech. It's far from clear the animals part, and only the animals part was in reference to gang members.
   614. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:40 PM (#5674293)
Someone is really sucking down the Kool-Aid here. At least, let's call it Kool-Aid, to be polite.
Who are the other big-time politicos making a big stink out of MS-13 before Trump? I'm genuinely curious.
   615. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5674295)
Am I the only one here who is uncomfortable with the animals quote, even with the gang context? I could accept any number of descriptions of them, but saying "they are not people, they are animals" is a line that should not be crossed, even rhetorically.


Yes, but I suspect that ship long ago sailed. I suspect that there aren't many politicians anywhere that have described criminals of various elements or types as 'animals' at one time or another.



   616. BDC Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5674296)
spycake makes a good point: again, if there were a specific individual who'd done something insanely brutal, and you called him an "animal," maybe OK. But Trump is just conjuring up the subhuman wave from south of the border.
   617. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:43 PM (#5674299)
I could see a conflict between Mueller's relationship with Comey and the former investigation that Hannity et al. wish were happening; I don't see a conflict between Mueller's relationship with Comey and the latter investigation.
Are you suggesting a special counsel being appointed and Comey's firing are unrelated?
Moreover, it would seem difficult to find a person qualified to handle an investigation of this magnitude who doesn't have any sort of relationship with Comey, given that the guy was a USA, DAG, and FBI Director.
Not good enough. You hire someone from the sticks. For example, take John Huber. It appears he's never lived a day of his life on the East Coast, let alone hung out with Comey.
   618. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:48 PM (#5674306)
Not good enough. You hire someone from the sticks. For example, take John Huber. It appears he's never lived a day of his life on the East Coast, let alone hung out with Comey.


You do anything other than the thing that was done, because the thing that was done must be the real problem, otherwise Juan would have to break Reagan's 11th commandment, and that shall never happen.
   619. spycake Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:50 PM (#5674307)
Who are the other big-time politicos making a big stink out of MS-13 before Trump?


Is that what Trump is doing? He didn't even say "MS-13" in this exchange, someone else brought them up and Trump responded with pronouns and nonspecifics.
   620. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:55 PM (#5674308)
But Trump is just conjuring up the subhuman wave from south of the border.
Again, that's no excuse for folks to lie about what he said.

And on a related note, what evidence do you have that Pelosi gives a damn about Americans, including Latinos, who live neighborhoods ravaged by MS-13 violence? Because it sure doesn't appear that she mentions the gang once when condemning Trump's remarks.
   621. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:56 PM (#5674310)
spycake makes a good point: again, if there were a specific individual who'd done something insanely brutal, and you called him an "animal," maybe OK. But Trump is just conjuring up the subhuman wave from south of the border.

The word you are looking for is 'Untermenschen'.
   622. BDC Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:58 PM (#5674313)
that's no excuse for folks to lie about what he said

Nobody's lying about what Trump said. Heck, we're quoting it back at him directly.

And on a related note, what evidence do you have that Pelosi

Don't you mean "on a whatabout non-sequitur note?" :)
   623. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:00 PM (#5674315)
Trump's "knowledge" of MS-13 is probably on par with his "knowledge" about the Central Park 5.


He's plumb-ignorant about vaccines and that's actual verified science with reams of supporting data. He brandishes like stupidity like a cudgel and his stooges do the same.
   624. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:03 PM (#5674318)
Am I the only one here who is uncomfortable with the animals quote, even with the gang context? I could accept any number of descriptions of them, but saying "they are not people, they are animals" is a line that should not be crossed, even rhetorically.


I was slogging through the thread (after meetings and lunch) to make this very point. Such phrases are not OK, even about gang members, certainly not from POTUS. Ugh. What a dumpster fire Trump is, just terrible.
   625. PepTech Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:04 PM (#5674319)
Someone is really sucking down the Kool-Aid here. At least, let's call it Kool-Aid, to be polite.

Who are the other big-time politicos making a big stink out of MS-13 before Trump? I'm genuinely curious.
First, as noted, it's unclear whether Trump is "making a big stink" out of MS-13. There's no evidence he's conversant with the issue at anything but a superficial level ("MS-13 = bad actors"). He started to talk about them summer of last year... was it the top of the briefing page that day and quickly forgotten? There were a bunch of arrests last fall, I don't know if that constitutes a coordinated administration follow-up or not.

As has been cited, the Treasury Department declared them evil in 2012, and the FBI has had a task force since 2004. It's a bit of an oversell to imply that Trump and Trump alone has courageously led a concentrated effort to inform the thanklessly ungrateful American public.
   626. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:06 PM (#5674320)
Nobody's lying about what Trump said. Heck, we're quoting it back at him directly.
Which Primate was Clapper quoting in #502?
Don't you mean "on a whatabout non-sequitur note?" :)
You're still doing it wrong. Concession accepted, all the same.
   627. Lassus Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:06 PM (#5674321)
I will fess up: as a liberal having a lack of forgiveness for actual proven violent crimes (truthfully, I'm not particularly forgiving in general), I don't find me personally considering such actual criminals themselves animals to be troubling. I can live with myself for that.

And that being said, if I was actually in a position of authority tasked with any degree of leadership I would have the presence of mind not to actually say so out loud, or manifest such beliefs as best as possible in my leadership.
   628. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:06 PM (#5674322)
However, per the FBI's own estimate - there are about 10,000 MS-13 members in the US, a relative fraction of the estimated 1.4 million gang-members nationwide.

As a point of comparison - the ADL puts the total membership of the Ku Klux Klan (specifically, not counting any other various groups) at about 3500. The SPLC says 6000.

The DOJ says there are about 2500 members of the Hells Angels in the US.


More -

FBI estimates put Italian mafia membership in the US at around 25,000.

The Crips, about 30,000.

Russian organized crime estimates range from 5000 to 15000, depending on how you want to slice and dice the various groups.
   629. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:07 PM (#5674324)
Not good enough. You hire someone from the sticks. For example, take John Huber. It appears he's never lived a day of his life on the East Coast, let alone hung out with Comey.


<Yawn>

I have faith that the GOP brigades could find a reason for anyone even remotely neutral to be found as unacceptable. Mueller is well suited for his task and has been running his investigation in a far more professional way (from all appearances) than any number of previous investigations launched by the GOP* against various Democrats. Folks are whining because they don't want their guy investigated, full stop.

* As always, I feel compelled to note that this investigation was also launched by a GOP administration.
   630. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:09 PM (#5674326)
As has been cited, the Treasury Department declared them evil in 2012, and the FBI has had a task force since 2004. It's a bit of an oversell to imply that Trump and Trump alone has courageously led a concentrated effort to inform the thanklessly ungrateful American public.
That doesn't answer my question. What big-time politicos were highlighting the MS-13 threat back in the day?

Oh, and will someone mention to zonk that a gang membership number stat is meaningless compared to the amount of violence they produce? Thanks.
   631. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:13 PM (#5674330)
I have faith that the GOP brigades could find a reason for anyone even remotely neutral to be found as unacceptable. Mueller is well suited for his task and has been running his investigation in a far more professional way (from all appearances) than any number of previous investigations launched by the GOP* against various Democrats. Folks are whining because they don't want their guy investigated, full stop.
Obtusity clearly didn't read what I had said about Mueller a few posts earlier. Also, what "previous investigations" are you referencing? I'm heading out the door but would love to read later how you backed up this fanciful claim.

* As always, I feel compelled to note that this investigation was also launched by a GOP administration.
I'll raise your <Yawn> with a <SNORE> -- unless what you're trying to say is that the "GOP administration" is trustworthy because it didn't put a thumb on the scales in this high-stakes inquiry.
   632. Lassus Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:14 PM (#5674331)
I feel like MSNBC has been talking about MS-13 forever. I certainly did learn about them from the liberal toady wing of the media.
   633. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:14 PM (#5674332)
And on a related note, what evidence do you have that Pelosi gives a damn about Americans, including Latinos, who live neighborhoods ravaged by MS-13 violence? Because it sure doesn't appear that she mentions the gang once when condemning Trump's remarks.


I'll repeat again.

The FBI estimates roughly 1.4 million gang/organized crime members nationwide. MS-13 makes up less than 1% of that total - and however you want to slice and dice it, multiple other syndicates are quite a bit larger, quite a bit more deadly, and take in quite a bit more illicit revenue than does MS-13.

It's a patently obvious and easy exercise left to the reader why people like you and Trump choose to fixate solely on a specific criminal syndicate, despite the fact that they come in all ethnicity, race, and national origin... and they're all involved in the same sorts of crimes and enterprises.
   634. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:16 PM (#5674333)
Russian organized crime estimates range from 5000 to 15000, depending on how you want to slice and dice the various groups.


Does this include White House staffers?
   635. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:17 PM (#5674335)
And c'mon guys. Don't let Juan Juanabout this #### into a derailed bullshit stream about whether or not Nancy Pelosi ever denounced Obama's drone program.
   636. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:20 PM (#5674337)
I'll repeat again.
Repeating stooopid doesn't make it less stooopid.

MS-13 is a BFD because of its viciousness, not membership numbers.

And FFS, people, get your talking points in order. If you think MS-13 violence is no big deal, just say so. But then don't trot out links trying to suggest that the Obama administration was way concerned about their rise.
   637. Count Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:20 PM (#5674338)
That doesn't answer my question. What big-time politicos were highlighting the MS-13 threat back in the day?


I'm sure there was discussion of it, but since Trump there has definitely been an uptake in Republicans around the country running aggressively racist campaigns and lying about the threat of immigration to try to get the Republican base excited. Like bland Ed Gillespie in Virginia running this ad. Congrats, you can credit that as an accomplishment.
   638. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:20 PM (#5674339)
@lesserfrederick:
The game:

1. Intentionally or not, say something ambiguously offensive yet base-pleasing.
2. Let people hear what they want to hear and argue about it.
3. Figure out what the more favorable interpretation is.
4. Insist it always meant the favorable interpretation.
5. Fake news!
   639. Lassus Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:22 PM (#5674340)
Wait, I missed Pelosi dropping in?


If you think MS-13 violence is no big deal, just say so.

Wat?
   640. Howie Menckel Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:27 PM (#5674343)
Ugh. Turning into Howie is like my worst nightmare. I need to start drinking.

post of the week (#540, Lassus). I would say LOL but only old people do that.
   641. Count Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:27 PM (#5674344)
Chris Hayes put it well -

This MS-13 nonsense has precisely the same structure as the racist drug war rhetoric of the crack years.

Politicians would use wildly racist language to describe drug dealers, but if called on it would say “oh so you’re defending drug dealers?”
And of course the result of all this rhetoric was wildly punitive laws that gave us the largest per capita prison population in the world and enormous racial disparities.
   642. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:28 PM (#5674347)
Am I the only one here who is uncomfortable with the animals quote, even with the gang context? I could accept any number of descriptions of them, but saying "they are not people, they are animals" is a line that should not be crossed, even rhetorically.

I could live with the description if (1) it really had been directed solely at gang members; (2) if the person saying it didn't have a lifelong history of racism (that JE and other Republicans won't even acknowledge); and (3) if the person saying it had also used it to describe the members of neo-Nazi groups who make up the most consistently enthusiastic part of his fan base.
   643. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:29 PM (#5674348)
Chris Hayes put it well -

This MS-13 nonsense has precisely the same structure as the racist drug war rhetoric of the crack years.
Cuomo announces $18.5M to fight MS-13 on Long Island

RACIST.
   644. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:29 PM (#5674349)
The FBI estimates roughly 1.4 million gang/organized crime members nationwide. MS-13 makes up less than 1% of that total - and however you want to slice and dice it, multiple other syndicates are quite a bit larger, quite a bit more deadly, and take in quite a bit more illicit revenue than does MS-13.

Maybe MS-13 isn't a problem for Zonk in Canada, but here in the U.S. they've made quite an impression. Lots of stories in the Washington Post about their activities in both the Maryland & Virginia suburbs, which is a very recent development over the last ~ 5 years or so. Why anyone wants to minimize the problem escapes me. Is it because most of their victims are Hispanic?
   645. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:29 PM (#5674351)
MS-13 is a BFD because of its viciousness, not membership numbers.


MS-13 is a "BFD" because you live in a goddamned sewer where you people spin every ####### story imaginable for some desperate angle to defend a Republican.
   646. Lassus Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:29 PM (#5674352)
This MS-13 nonsense has precisely the same structure as the racist drug war rhetoric of the crack years. Politicians would use wildly racist language to describe drug dealers, but if called on it would say “oh so you’re defending drug dealers?” And of course the result of all this rhetoric was wildly punitive laws that gave us the largest per capita prison population in the world and enormous racial disparities.

That is... surprisingly succinct and accurate.


Cuomo announces $18.5M to fight MS-13 on Long Island
RACIST.
The money will support anti-gang initiatives by local law enforcement, as well as after-school programs and youth job training intended to discourage teens from joining a gang.
Because he called the people coming into Long Island animals. (Then again, those Hamptons jitneys...)

Don't be stupid on purpose.
   647. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:30 PM (#5674353)
Maybe MS-13 isn't a problem for Zonk in Canada, but here in the U.S. they've made quite an impression.


You nor anyone you've ever met have been "impressed" by MS-13, you lying sack of ####. You are spinning talking points, because that is all your lying, scumbag ass ever does.
   648. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:32 PM (#5674354)
If you think MS-13 violence is no big deal, just say so.


People who actually believed MS-13 violence was a big deal would support easy and open immigration for refugees from Central and South America, where MS-13 are far greater power centers.
   649. PepTech Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:32 PM (#5674355)
Do you want big-time politicos highlighting the problem? Is that all it takes? This article would seem to differ. Hyperbole of the headline aside, "simply" deporting gang members isn't really helping, not that I have a better solution. Making public example of "animals" may just be creating martyrs.

I'm not conversant with every detail of the US efforts across several administrations to combat MS-13. From this article, it's been going on for awhile. Snopes would seem to indicate that MS-13 is less tied up with anything Obama did or did not do than Trump's statements would have us believe, going back to LA under Reagan.

The idea that Donald J. Trump has buried himself in the details of this one, and had anything to do with crafting coherent policies to combat MS-13, is at best... unsupported. It's far more likely that statement can be described as ludicrous. It's a talking point he can roll out to his base, and there's no evidence of anything else.
   650. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:32 PM (#5674356)
MS-13 is a "BFD" because you live in a goddamned sewer where you people spin every ####### story imaginable for some desperate angle to defend a Republican.
You're frothing at the mouth again. Not a great look.
   651. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:32 PM (#5674357)
Oh, and will someone mention to zonk that a gang membership number stat is meaningless compared to the amount of violence they produce? Thanks.


You're free to mention to me directly. I don't have you on ignore, despite your metronomic fluffery.

Finding hard data specific on violent crimes, I haven't run into yet.

Worldwide, both of these lists puts a specific faction of the Russian mafia (Solntsevskaya Bratva) at the top of the heap (revenue per the first; "most powerful" per the second). That's worldwide - of course - but as Lassus noted, despite MS-13 being the first gang to make it into the Transnational Organized Crime group, they actually don't even make either of these lists.

If you've got data, share it.

Membership and revenue comparisons are all I've been able to find.
   652. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:33 PM (#5674358)

Not good enough. You hire someone from the sticks. For example, take John Huber. It appears he's never lived a day of his life on the East Coast, let alone hung out with Comey.
Hell, from his bio I'm not sure he's ever left the state of Utah on a day trip. He seems like a perfectly cromulent guy and a competent prosecutor. I don't see anything in his resume, a couple of decades as a state and federal prosecutor in Utah, with 2 years as USA, that suggests he's well-suited to manage an investigation into whether POTUS and his campaign were conspiring with the Kremlin, though. That isn't quite like prosecuting gun and drug crimes in Salt Lake City.
   653. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:35 PM (#5674359)

Russian organized crime estimates range from 5000 to 15000, depending on how you want to slice and dice the various groups.
And that's just the ones who worked on Trump's campaign!
   654. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:35 PM (#5674360)
MS-13 is a BFD because of its viciousness, not membership numbers.


Maybe MS-13 isn't a problem for Zonk in Canada, but here in the U.S. they've made quite an impression. Lots of stories in the Washington Post about their activities in both the Maryland & Virginia suburbs, which is a very recent development over the last ~ 5 years or so. Why anyone wants to minimize the problem escapes me. Is it because most of their victims are Hispanic?


Seems like one of you ought to be able to provide some data, then.

Try contributing something to your claim beyond vague "NEXT! On Hannity..."
   655. Count Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:37 PM (#5674362)
Chris Hayes put it well -

This MS-13 nonsense has precisely the same structure as the racist drug war rhetoric of the crack years.
Cuomo announces $18.5M to fight MS-13 on Long Island

RACIST.


Jesus - the point is that Trump (and others) use racist rhetoric and dramatically overstate the threat of MS-13, not that that there's no issue at all. And that when Trump or others are called on -this is in the part of the quote you cut off from your post - they turn around and say oh you're defending MS-13? Or in your case, "why hasn't Nancy Pelosi condemned MS-13?"
   656. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:37 PM (#5674363)
Do you want big-time politicos highlighting the problem? Is that all it takes? This article would seem to differ. Hyperbole of the headline aside, "simply" deporting gang members isn't really helping, not that I have a better solution. Making public example of "animals" may just be creating martyrs.
And that's a fair question.
The idea that Trump has buried himself in the details of this one, and had anything to do with crafting coherent policies to combat MS-13, is at best... unsupported. It's far more likely that statement can be described as ludicrous.
I would hope Trump's not burying himself in the details. That's Kirstjen Nielsen's job.
   657. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:37 PM (#5674364)
@lesserfrederick:
The game:

1. Intentionally or not, say something ambiguously offensive yet base-pleasing.
2. Let people hear what they want to hear and argue about it.
3. Figure out what the more favorable interpretation is.
4. Insist it always meant the favorable interpretation.
5. Fake news!
That isn't true at all.

1-3 is fine.
4. Have your staffers insist that it always meant the favorable interpretation.
5. Fake news!
6. Tweet something that shows that the more offensive interpretation was the correct one all along.
   658. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:39 PM (#5674365)
Hell, from his bio I'm not sure he's ever left the state of Utah on a day trip.
I was tempted to say that at first but Mormons do missionary work, ya know? :)
   659. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:43 PM (#5674369)
Clapper's "Stories" --

From 2017 -

In the United States, MS-13 cliques similarly seek to extort recent immigrants fleeing the very violence the gang has wrecked at home. Yet facing a much more effective police response, their efforts to organize anything approaching a unified structure have met with infighting and arrests. MS-13’s reputation for violence drives lurid headlines and enhances its brand, but these headlines obscure its marginal status in the world of organized crime: Of the 114,434 people arrested by Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s gang unit last year, just 429 were MS-13 members. As the head of the Northern Virginia Gang Task Force has stated, “the vast majority of their crimes are gang-on-gang,” echoing Senate testimony by Montgomery County, Md.’s police chief that most of their violence is motivated by “perceived or actual rival gang affiliations,” as well as members turning informant, or potential members resisting recruitment efforts.

For all the hype in the governor’s race, MS-13 has been associated with three murders in Virginia this year, and two of the victims were MS-13 members themselves. To put that into perspective, there were 480 homicides in Virginia in 2016, and nine Virginians died in traffic accidents over Fourth of July weekend alone.
   660. Lassus Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:43 PM (#5674370)
That isn't quite like prosecuting gun and drug bigamy crimes in Salt Lake City.
Oh yes, I did.
   661. PepTech Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:46 PM (#5674372)
I would hope Trump's not burying himself in the details. That's Kirstjen Nielsen's job.
If you meant by "thanks to Trump highlighting the issue, the public is now well aware of the scourge that is MS-13" that Trump had indicated to Nielsen she should up the priority on MS-13, you should cite a source. The way it reads sounds like Trump-cheerleading on the order of "biggest inaugural crowd of all time".

No one's claiming MS-13 isn't bad. The question is whether Trump is manipulating MS-13, and public perception of it, for political gain, in perhaps questionable ways. The answer is, of course he is, because really everything Trump does is for political gain, in questionable ways. The most one can hope for is that his political gain aligns with yours. Congratulations on that, I suppose.
   662. BDC Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:46 PM (#5674373)
I would hope Trump's not burying himself in the details

And I hope I don't get home and find the cat taking a bath.
   663. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:47 PM (#5674375)
For all the hype in the governor’s race, MS-13 has been associated with three murders in Virginia this year, and two of the victims were MS-13 members themselves. To put that into perspective, there were 480 homicides in Virginia in 2016, and nine Virginians died in traffic accidents over Fourth of July weekend alone.


You can't deport cars, man.
   664. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:47 PM (#5674376)
Of the 114,434 people arrested by Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s gang unit last year, just 429 were MS-13 members.


And of those 429, 0 were arrested by Nancy Pelosi.
   665. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:48 PM (#5674377)
If discussing MS-13 is just Trump racism, then how come no one's breathing heavily about Bloods and Crips?

Maybe this is why?

Rise of the Salvatrucha: World’s most feared and vicious gang is expanding with ambitions to commit the most murders
   666. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:49 PM (#5674378)
You're frothing at the mouth again.


Better than the continuing trend of Trump frothing at yours, 'holster.
   667. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:50 PM (#5674380)
Of the 114,434 people arrested by Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s gang unit last year, just 429 were MS-13 members.


Well, we know for a fact that ICE straight up lies and calls pretty much anyone and everyone they arrest a "gang member," so I strongly suspect both the 114k and 429 numbers there are outright fabrications.
   668. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:51 PM (#5674382)
If discussing gangs is all about racism, then how come no one's breathing heavily about Bloods and Crips?


Because racists like you, Trump, and Clapper are too simple-minded to carry on multiple racists rants simultaneously?
   669. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:51 PM (#5674383)
No one's claiming MS-13 isn't bad.
Unless a politico talks about MS-13. That's bad. No, that's really bad.
   670. Lassus Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:53 PM (#5674385)
If discussing MS-13 is just Trump racism

WHO the #### said this? Seriously, who?
   671. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:54 PM (#5674386)
Unless a politico talks about MS-13.


He didn't talk about MS-13. He called all immigrants "animals." Then you and your cockshining worker bees got down to slurping up the mess and spinning it into something that you could blame on Nancy Pelosi.
   672. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:56 PM (#5674387)
Because racists like you, Trump, and Clapper
You're adorable when completely unhinged.
   673. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:57 PM (#5674389)
From ICE -

Combined, the 89 defendants had been previously convicted of 736 crimes. Of the 736 previous convictions, 234 were drug-related offenses; 76 were violent offenses; 36 were gun offenses; 37 were burglaries; seven were sex or child abuse offenses; and one was a murder conviction. Fifteen of the defendants were deemed “career offenders” under the U.S. Sentencing Guidelines. Some defendants had as many as 25 prior convictions. And only six of the 89 had no prior convictions.


Mind the numbers... 429 total MS-13 across the country in an entire year. 91 (2 remain at large) in a single sweep of Aryan Brotherhood of Texas.
   674. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:58 PM (#5674391)
You're adorable when completely unhinged.


You're not when all you hand it is Hannityian bromides while someone challenges you with numbers and data.
   675. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 02:58 PM (#5674392)
WHO the #### said this? Seriously, who?
FFS, do you have Sammy and zonk on IGNORE?
   676. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:02 PM (#5674393)
You're not when all you hand it is Hannityian bromides while someone challenges you with numbers and data.
Yeah, genius, that's what started this.
   677. Lassus Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:02 PM (#5674394)
FFS, do you have Sammy and zonk on IGNORE?

Be less cryptic, for once. Point on the doll to the posts or sentences you're referring to.
   678. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:04 PM (#5674397)
Mind the numbers... 429 total MS-13 across the country in an entire year. 91 (2 remain at large) in a single sweep of Aryan Brotherhood of Texas.
There were 25 MS-13 murders on Long Island streets in the last two years alone.

Your Aryan Brotherhood numbers were mostly narcotics-related convictions. ONE was for murder.

Genius.
   679. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:08 PM (#5674398)
Yeah, genius, that's what started this.


Does constant fronting for Trump make you unable to grasp and engage in a discussion in a manner OTHER than Trumpian?

If you don't like the reality of a hill you chose to plant your flag on, then I suggest you become more picky about which hills you choose to occupy.
   680. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:09 PM (#5674401)
From ICE -

[...]

Mind the numbers... 429 total MS-13 across the country in an entire year. 91 (2 remain at large) in a single sweep of Aryan Brotherhood of Texas.
I'm confused. Why is ICE investigating the Aryan Brotherhood?
   681. Stormy JE Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:09 PM (#5674402)
Be less cryptic, for once.
No, fella, you do some work for a change. I'm not here to hold your hand every time you're befuddled.
   682. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:13 PM (#5674406)
Be less cryptic, for once.


Good luck with that.
   683. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:13 PM (#5674407)
I'm confused. Why is ICE investigating the Aryan Brotherhood?


I'm not entirely sure -


This investigation was led by the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS-CID) Gang Unit and the Dallas Police Department Criminal Intelligence Unit with assistance from U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s (ICE) Homeland Security Investigations (HSI); the Garland (Texas) Police Department Neighborhood Police Officer Unit; the Collin County (Texas) Sheriff's Office; and the Texas police departments of Mesquite, Sherman, Denison and Sulphur Springs.


But my guess is that Aryan Brotherhood falls under the "Transnational Gangs" definition, hence ICE involvement (to whatever extent it may have been... I only ran across it looking for a breakdown of who the other ~113,500 alleged 'gang affiliates' that weren't identified as part of MS-13 might have been).
   684. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:14 PM (#5674408)
If Trump were simply concentrating on deporting gang members, rather than also breaking up families of non-gang members and asylum seekers, he wouldn't be getting this sort of pushback. But when the standard response to stories like this is "What part of 'illegal' do you not understand", it's pretty clear that Trump and ICE are far more interested in overall deportation numbers than they are in breaking up gangs.
   685. Lassus Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:14 PM (#5674409)
No, fella, you do some work for a change. I'm not here to hold your hand every time you're befuddled.

Nah, you're here to make accusations and not bother backing them up.
   686. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:15 PM (#5674410)
Your Aryan Brotherhood numbers were mostly narcotics-related convictions. ONE was for murder.


So very fine people?

Carry on, then.

EDIT: The more careful reader might make the comparison between the allegation that some people are "apologizing" for MS-13 and Jason's point blank apology for the Aryan Brotherhood.
   687. zenbitz Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:16 PM (#5674411)
The REALLY stupid part is that ... who cares if you DEPORT foreign gang members? If they commit crimes you catch them and put them in jail. If you deport them they are going to ... what? Be criminals in Central America? NOT sneak back in the country?

   688. zenbitz Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:18 PM (#5674413)
Am I the only one here who is uncomfortable with the animals quote, even with the gang context?


No, but it's par for the course.
   689. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:18 PM (#5674414)
Nah, you're here to make accusations and not bother backing them up.


His only sources are deep nutjob right wing crazy pants websites. His idea of a "moderate" source is Tucker ####### Carlson.
   690. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:19 PM (#5674416)
The REALLY stupid part is that ... who cares if you DEPORT foreign gang members? If they commit crimes you catch them and put them in jail. If you deport them they are going to ... what? Be criminals in Central America? NOT sneak back in the country?


Indeed.

Despite the country's voluminous problems with imprisonment, it ought to be rather logical that, since we're at least quite good at locking people up - people who obviously DO belong in prison ought to stay in prison.

But one should never let logic spoil a good Nuremberg rally... it makes the baby Riefenstahls cry.
   691. zenbitz Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:22 PM (#5674419)
what evidence do you have that Pelosi gives a damn about Americans, including Latinos, who live neighborhoods ravaged by MS-13 violence?


Ah yes, the hellhole that is 20th and Mission in San Francisco. Or is that the roving hipster and "bike" gangs?
   692. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:27 PM (#5674420)
In less violent criminal enterprise news -

It appears that Jared has found someone to save the Kushners on 666... just so happens that the investor happens to have, as its largest non-original shareholder, the Qatar Investment Authority.
   693. Zonk cooks his superfish with raisins Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:31 PM (#5674422)
...and, your update on soybeans

China, the world’s biggest soybean importer, almost tripled purchases from Russia amid a trade dispute with the U.S., the biggest producer.

Russia sold about 850,000 metric tons of soybeans to China from the start of the 12-month season in July through mid-May, according to Russia’s agriculture agency Rosselkhoznadzor. That’s more than during any season before and compares with about 340,000 tons sold during all of the previous period, Chinese customs data show.
   694. BDC Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:31 PM (#5674423)
who cares if you DEPORT foreign gang members? If they commit crimes you catch them and put them in jail

To risk stating the obvious, the Trumpista warrant is that we should never let any Latins into the country. Too bad for the few fine people, but it protects us against the animals.

Or not even that. The real rhetorical content is "real Americans need to feel constantly under siege and need to be scared enough to vote for ###holes like me."
   695. Joe Bivens Hereby Demands! Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:37 PM (#5674425)
Be less cryptic, for once.


You're asking a lot. That's his trademarked Monkey Dance.
   696. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:40 PM (#5674430)
The real rhetorical content is "real Americans need to feel constantly under siege and need to be scared enough to vote for ###holes like me."


This is the core element of Trumpism, and why it settled so easily into Jason's system. The center of the thing is rank victimization complex from "conservatives." That's the nucleus that Trump split to unleash the atomic reactionary white nationalism of the 21st century that he's riding. Jason and company have spent the last three decades telling themselves that they're the "real victims" of the "evil liberal media," etc, so while it took a little longer for the rot to set in through their cloister cocktail party personas, once it did, it hit home and they went full in on the cockholstering along with the mouthbreathers and racists.
   697. Joe Bivens Hereby Demands! Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:42 PM (#5674432)
Quite telling that the reporting and posting here managed to obscure that.


That's from Dancing Monkey #1's 502, regarding MS-13.

What's telling is that the Trump administration has deported exactly the people they said they weren't going after...the non-violent people who checked in regularly to their local USCIS office, and every once in a while he'll make some comment about the gang members being animals who rape and kill us, which keeps idiots like you cheering on the deportation of poor people who weren't supposed to be targeted in the first place.

Go #### yourself.
   698. tshipman Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:42 PM (#5674433)
Jason and company have spent the last three decades telling themselves that they're the "real victims" of the "evil liberal media," etc, so while it took a little longer for the rot to set in through their cloister cocktail party personas, once it did, it hit home and they went full in on the cockholstering along with the mouthbreathers and racists.


I don't think this is it. Jason made compromises. At first he was #NeverTrump, then it was only Trump because Clinton was so bad. Then it was still no to Trump, but Jason was willing to use him in order to achieve long standing policy goals. Then, he got used to defending Trump's policy goals. Then, he got used to defending Trump.

Now he's a full-on Trumpista. Immigrant gangs are the real problem.

Jason is a neat little case study on the risks of compromising with evil.
   699. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:46 PM (#5674434)
Clapper's "Stories" --

There are any number of WaPo stories that don't minimize the MS-13 problem. Zonk will probably like this one since it notes, among other things, that unlike their less "progressive" Central American counterparts, some MS-13 gangs in the U.S now allow female members. Other than that, not much positive.
   700. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:47 PM (#5674436)
I know I should be chastising Rickey! for his various rants, but I gotta admit his bit amuses me. Very consistently over-the-top, but with just enough nuggets of truth buried within to keep it just grounded enough.

For the record, while I disagree with Jason on ... um ... nearly everything I don't think he is the kind of person Rickey! is portraying him as. He certainly doesn't seem racist to me. War and GOP loving (redundant?) and hating anything that hints at Islam, sure, but I think calling him racist is a bridge too far (Only TGF among those that post here warrants that IMO).
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