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Monday, May 21, 2018

OTP 2018 May 21: President takes British royalty to a baseball game, May 15, 1991

The 65-year-old queen, dressed in a below-the-knee blue and red dress, black gloves and three strands of pearls, entered the Orioles dugout along the third base line. She formed a receiving line with her husband and the president, clad in a navy blazer, and Barbara Bush. The first lady wore a blue and white floral print dress.

While the VIP guests took their positions designated by their names on 3-by-5 cards, the song “Brown-Eyed Girl” played over the stadium’s public-address system. Their images appeared on the video screen in right-center field.

“I’ve been playing baseball for 10 years, and I’m used to a normal atmosphere,” said Cal Ripken Jr., the Orioles shortstop, after exchanging handshakes. “This is a lot different. There’s a lot of excitement.”

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 21, 2018 at 07:42 AM | 1375 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: baltimore orioles, oakland athletics, off topic, politics, polyamorous wood

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   701. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: May 23, 2018 at 04:58 PM (#5678412)
Just think of all the things you're not allowed to like in 2018 if you're a republican: Movies, football, the truth, and now Netflix. Though, I guess with the news today that players will be forced to stand during the anthem, the right will be allowed to like the NFL again.
   702. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: May 23, 2018 at 05:02 PM (#5678414)
Movies, football, the truth, and now Netflix
You left off Amazon.
   703. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: May 23, 2018 at 05:05 PM (#5678417)
Though, I guess with the news today that players will be forced to stand during the anthem, the right will be allowed to like the NFL again.


They have the option of staying in the locker room during the anthem.

If the new rule doesn't violate the collective bargaining agreement, tough #### for the players. Let them start their own league if their bosses say they can't kneel and they don't like it.

The Jets owner says he'll pay all fines related to kneeling during the anthem.
   704. Lassus Posted: May 23, 2018 at 05:30 PM (#5678429)
This Jared news has to be a blow to anti-Trumpers anticipating an indictment for him.
   705. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 23, 2018 at 05:46 PM (#5678436)
YR, RE: those links to Twitter you posted earlier today: The idiots were calling for a boycott of Netflix (if they were clever, they'd have a Nyetflix campaign).

Netflix is up 4% today on slightly lower than average volume, and is at a 52 week high.


Clearly another example of Trump’s mesmerizing hold on Wall Street.
   706. tshipman Posted: May 23, 2018 at 06:35 PM (#5678449)
See, the establishment view here. Clapper ignores the parts of Trump's campaign that got etch-a-sketched away once Trump took office. Trump promised that rich people wouldn't benefit from his tax plan and that everyone would have better health care.

Most of his rivals for the GOP nomination also favored some form of tax reform or tax simplification, and it didn't provide them any real traction. The issues that propelled Trump's candidacy were his opposition to illegal immigration and his promise to do more about the negative effects on jobs from allegedly unfair foreign economic competition. That's not to say that he didn't take other stances, but those who don't think those were the issues that gave Trump the nomination & general election must have been watching a different campaign.


Again, look at how uncomfortable Clapper is with Trump's actual campaign promises.

SAVANNAH GUTHRIE, NBC: Do you believe in raising taxes on the wealthy?

DONALD TRUMP: I do. I do – including myself. I do.


Trump really was different in his promises to the Republican field. Tax cuts for the wealthy are very unpopular, and you can see that in the polling around the tax law that actually passed. Trump's campaign really did have different policy promises than the typical Republican.
   707. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 23, 2018 at 06:53 PM (#5678454)
Whores are often uncomfortable. But they’re whores. And whores do what whores do. Clapper will polish any knob in order to stack the courts with radicals for a generation.
   708. Laser Man Posted: May 23, 2018 at 07:16 PM (#5678460)
Trump really was different in his promises to the Republican field. Tax cuts for the wealthy are very unpopular, and you can see that in the polling around the tax law that actually passed. Trump's campaign really did have different policy promises than the typical Republican.
And of course, the crazy thing about Trump is that he still says that the Tax Cut plan will "cost him a fortune" (Trump on How Tax Cut Plan Affects Him). He knows that tax cuts for the rich are not popular, so he claims that the plan hurts him, even if it obviously does not.
   709. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 23, 2018 at 07:19 PM (#5678462)
Again, look at how uncomfortable Clapper is with Trump's actual campaign promises.

You're just being silly. The issue wasn't what position Trump took on every issue during the campaign, or whether you approved of his stance, but what got him the nomination and a general election win. Again, the issues that propelled Trump's candidacy were opposition to illegal immigration and increased protection from allegedly unfair foreign economic competition. It's a bit bizarre for you to argue that his tax policy was unpopular yet central to his election.
   710. Eddo Posted: May 23, 2018 at 07:32 PM (#5678470)
It's a bit bizarre for you to argue that his tax policy was unpopular yet central to his election.

His point was that Trump's stated tax policy ("raising taxes on the wealthy") *was* popular, and different from the rest of the serious GOP candidates.
   711. Tom T Posted: May 23, 2018 at 10:20 PM (#5678580)
@648:
Not claiming my little patch of Indiana farmland familiarity is anything more than anecdotal, but there are a lot of rural folks that Trump's trade debacles are hitting hard.


Sorry to be late picking up on this, but wanted to pass along personal anecdotal evidence based on my drive to work (that takes me past some of said Indiana farmland).

There is a small house belonging to a guy who farms a nice chunk of land that he really should sell to a developer (he is now surrounded on 3 sides by new housing and old housing on the 4th...gotta be good cash offered by now). The farmer proudly flew his TRUMP flag, along with posting signs in his yard and on his buildings, from before election day until about a the time all the NAFTA talk started to reveal that farmers were going to be s-c-r-e-w-e-d should Trump *actually* withdraw from NAFTA and other trade agreements. One morning all the Trump-galia was simply gone --- back to flying an American flag, and not a Trump-related sign on any building. Entirely possible he just wanted a new look (the flag was getting to be rather worn), but I've also noted that the MAGA parents of the kids on our youth baseball teams haven't been so open with their support, of late.

Now...recognizing that this Congressional district will vote (R) until the end of time, I suspect the impact will best be measured by turnout. Not sure how this, on a larger scale, might affect Braun in the Senate race, but if Rokita manages to sneak back into the House race, I'd expect his margin to be markedly smaller than usual.
   712. Ishmael Posted: May 24, 2018 at 07:31 AM (#5678670)
I’d be really interested in some perspective from you guys on this case, and the analysis in the article.

Do You Have to Kill to Be a Murderer?

LaKeith Smith was 15 when, in February 2015, he and several friends burgled two homes in Millbrook, Alabama. When police arrived, some of Smith’s friends, including 16-year-old A’Donte Washington, engaged in gunfire with the police officers, and one of the officers shot and killed Washington. Now Smith has been charged and convicted of Washington’s murder even though Smith himself did not participate in the shootout (he did not even have a gun). In April 2018 a judge sentenced him to 30 years in prison for Washington’s death, plus an additional 35 years for two counts of theft and one count of burglary.
[...]
Maybe it is understandable that, in the face of a tragedy such as this, the prosecutor, jurors and judge should want to hold someone responsible. Washington couldn’t be made to pay for what happened, and the police officer was found to have been justified in the shooting. So perhaps Smith and his other accomplices in the burglaries were just the nearest available candidates. But despite the desire to hold someone responsible whenever a tragedy happens, we should only punish people for what they have actually done, not for crimes that others committed as a consequence (even a foreseeable consequence) of their actions. Treating people as ends in themselves, rather than as mere means, requires at least this much.
   713. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 24, 2018 at 07:50 AM (#5678672)
I’d be really interested in some perspective from you guys on this case, and the analysis in the article.


Legally or ethically?
   714. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 24, 2018 at 07:53 AM (#5678673)
Isn't there something called "accessory to a murder"? Depending on what Smith was formally charged with, other than the length of the sentence and the age of the defendant, this doesn't seem all that unusual a case.
   715. Ishmael Posted: May 24, 2018 at 07:56 AM (#5678675)
Legally or ethically?

Both.
   716. Stormy JE Posted: May 24, 2018 at 08:13 AM (#5678677)
I - and many others here - spent a fair amount of time discussing where we differed from Obama, so yeah you might want to look in the archives or maybe just your memory. Here is a hint: Drone Warfare. A second one: Syria. A third: Civil Rights. A fourth: His desire to bargain away Social Security in a grand bargain. There are more.
Nice try. I was clearly referencing the Obama White House's dealings with media.
In any event my memory of the completely blown out of proportion tapping reporters "scandal" is that it was much ado about nothing at all. You clearly remember it differently. If you really want to shift the burden here to those defending the President and are willing to declare so in simple straight forward terms then I will accept the burden of defending Obama and all his "scandals", but you get Trump. Somehow I would be willing to make that trade, but I suspect you are not.
More deflecting. Of course, it was a big deal but "scandal" is your straw man description. I'll leave this Committee to Protect Journalists report from 2013 here, Mouse. Read it at your leisure.

To recap: I called Trump's act against a Fortune 500 company "insidious," yet that wasn't good enough for you. Meanwhile, you pathetically feign ignorance when it comes to Obama's record WRT journalists, never mind that the issue had been raised here repeatedly.
   717. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: May 24, 2018 at 08:14 AM (#5678678)
Isn't there something called "accessory to a murder"? Depending on what Smith was formally charged with, other than the length of the sentence and the age of the defendant, this doesn't seem all that unusual a case.


I think you should read it again more carefully -

The Washington who was shot and killed was one of his accomplices, not a police officer or victim of the burglaries.

If you think that warrants 65 years in prison...

   718. Stormy JE Posted: May 24, 2018 at 08:16 AM (#5678680)
At the risk of being the armadillo in the middle of the highway, I think you're both way overdoing it.
They're both bigots, Andy, and the fact that you regularly exchange pleasantries with them while doxxing Andrew's gravesite says plenty about your judgment.
   719. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: May 24, 2018 at 08:19 AM (#5678681)
On the morality of 712 -

I'd say it's 0.25 as bad as Paul Manafort being awoken at 6 AM and being served a search warrant, maybe even as much as half as bad.
   720. Stormy JE Posted: May 24, 2018 at 08:20 AM (#5678683)
   721. Stormy JE Posted: May 24, 2018 at 08:33 AM (#5678688)
I’d be really interested in some perspective from you guys on this case, and the analysis in the article.
Based on a quick read of the excerpt, a murder charge seems way beyond the pale. And if the state statute on accomplice liability really allows for this ####, then that's gotta change.
   722. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 24, 2018 at 08:34 AM (#5678689)
At the risk of being the armadillo in the middle of the highway, I think you're both way overdoing it.

They're both bigots, Andy, and the fact that you regularly exchange pleasantries with them while doxxing Andrew's gravesite says plenty about your judgment.


I notice that while I spelled out my reasoning for what I said about you and Joe in #616, you've merely repeated your assertions about Joe and Morty.

And your friend Breitbart's public record speaks for itself. He was the scum of the Earth, and his legacy lives on with the website he founded. He may have been a great guy to know on a personal level, but so are millions of others who've helped destroy our country and our culture.
   723. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 24, 2018 at 08:39 AM (#5678691)
Isn't there something called "accessory to a murder"? Depending on what Smith was formally charged with, other than the length of the sentence and the age of the defendant, this doesn't seem all that unusual a case.

I think you should read it again more carefully -

The Washington who was shot and killed was one of his accomplices, not a police officer or victim of the burglaries.


I realize that, but when prosecutors want to nail someone they feel has some sort of moral responsibility for the outcome, the fact that his accomplice was the one who got killed wouldn't necessarily stop them. As obviously it didn't stop them in this case.

If you think that warrants 65 years in prison.

Of course I don't. When I wrote that it didn't seem to be that unusual a case, I was just being my usual cynical self about the nature of prosecutors when it comes to sensational cases involving a policeman.
   724. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: May 24, 2018 at 08:41 AM (#5678692)
Now Amazon demonetizes Legal Insurrection.


Maybe they could get a deal from the USPS and mail out their postings.

Trump on the NFL pregame changes...

“I think that's good. I don't think people should be staying in locker rooms, but still, I think it’s good,” the president told Fox News’ “Fox & Friends” in an interview that was taped Wednesday and aired Thursday morning. “You have to stand, proudly, for the national anthem or you shouldn't be playing. You shouldn't be there. Maybe you shouldn't be in the country. You have to stand proudly for the national anthem. And the NFL owners did the right thing if that's what they’ve done.”


   725. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: May 24, 2018 at 08:43 AM (#5678693)
I’d be really interested in some perspective from you guys on this case, and the analysis in the article.

Do You Have to Kill to Be a Murderer?

There is nothing about that excerpt that doesn't disgust me. Being charged for murder, when you are unarmed, because your accomplice got shocked is completely ridiculous.

But accepting that, the fact that you can get more years for 2 counts of theft, and 1 count of burglary, than for murder actually seems even worse. 35 years for that?!? The actual fuck?
   726. Count Posted: May 24, 2018 at 08:44 AM (#5678694)
Answering legally - without reading the article, based on the excerpt this seems like a case of felony murder, which is a common charge when two or more people commit a felony and in the course of that felony one of them is shot and killed by the police OR one of the criminals shoots and kills someone else (which I assume is more common). I'm not a fan because the underlying criminal behavior is usually sufficiently punished and often accounts for the foreseeability of someone getting hurt or killed (for example armed robbery is a crime whether or not someone actually gets shot or killed because it's foreseeable that someone could be; you don't need to add felony murder if at the scene of the crime one of the criminals is killed by police). As with other criminal law this likely differs by state and between states and the federal government.

Would have to look it up but if I recall correctly a number of people have been executed or at least put on death row for felony murder. Let's say you're the getaway driver and were never armed; if your accomplice shoots and kills someone, or is shot and killed by the police, you can be liable for murder.

edit: link here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule
   727. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 24, 2018 at 08:52 AM (#5678696)
Ethically, I have many problems with our justice system. I wouldn't put this top of the list (sadly), but it is clearly and obviously out of line. Legally ... not my area.
   728. Stormy JE Posted: May 24, 2018 at 08:54 AM (#5678698)
I notice that while I spelled out my reasoning for what I said about you and Joe in #616, you've merely repeated your assertions about Joe and Morty.
Your reasoning was ####. Israel wasn't even the topic being discussed when Bivens called me a "racist Zionist pig."

And IIRC, you didn't even address Morty's bigotry. Unlike Bivens, he possesses some substantive thoughts. OTOH, if David Duke were a big James Joyce fan, would you spend hours chatting him up about Irish literature too?
   729. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 24, 2018 at 08:59 AM (#5678700)
Nice try. I was clearly referencing the Obama White House's dealings with media.


Wait, I have to have denounced Obama vis-a-vis the media in order to have standing regarding Trump and his overt attempt to blackmail and/or attack a newspaper (or its owner) who are critical of him? That's crazy talk and you should think twice.

The fact is I, many times, was critical of Obama without "but ..." type qualifications. Your response to this particular outrage of Trump's was to call it insidious and then shrug it off in the same paragraph. It is fine if you don't think Trump's actions were bad, but if you think them bad don't immediately excuse them as no big deal after issuing a token pearl clutch.

Meanwhile, you pathetically feign ignorance when it comes to Obama's record WRT journalists, never mind that the issue had been raised here repeatedly.


I didn't claim ignorance. I explicitly discussed my summary memory of the affair. It disagrees with yours, no surprise you thought it a huge deal at the time, right up until it was shown to be much ado about nothing when it dropped down the memory hole (to periodically resurface in order to What about?), while I was fairly skeptical until it disappeared when I let it go, having more important things to care about.
   730. Stormy JE Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:10 AM (#5678709)
I think this was probably expected -

But a district court has found that Trump cannot block people on twitter.

No word on whether Trump will quit twitter as a result in his usual inability to be questioned fashion.
Hey, will someone kindly clue in Her Honor about the incognito window feature?

Also, you gotta enjoy how some of the same folks who swear the Second Amendment only applies to muskets simultaneously claim the First Amendment envisioned Twitter.
   731. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:12 AM (#5678711)
More deflecting. Of course, it was a big deal but "scandal" is your straw man description. I'll leave this Committee to Protect Journalists report from 2013 here, Mouse. Read it at your leisure.


OK I read it. And? Not being snarky but it is pretty much exactly as I remembered. The right wing took the reality and tried to spin it up into this huge deal (it wasn't). It is a really long article and allowing for the pro-Press bias is peretty much accurate, so what exactly in it is analogous to Trump executing his broad-based and repeated attacks against media he doesn't like (including his attacks on Amazon, but certainly not limited to them)?

Put shorter, your take is Fake News!:)
   732. Howie Menckel Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:23 AM (#5678722)
Capitals vs Golden Knights

Ian Mendes
‏Verified account @ian_mendes
11h11 hours ago

So the Stanley Cup Final will feature a morally bankrupt city that is built on corruption, greed & deceit against Las Vegas.
171 replies 3,390 retweets 8,712 likes
   733. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:27 AM (#5678730)
I notice that while I spelled out my reasoning for what I said about you and Joe in #616, you've merely repeated your assertions about Joe and Morty.

Your reasoning was ####. Israel wasn't even the topic being discussed when Bivens called me a "racist Zionist pig."


And you'll note that I defended you against that scurrilous accusation. IMO the both of you are far too loose with your exchange of insults. Jesus, is this what all Jewish families are like? (smile)

And IIRC, you didn't even address Morty's bigotry.

I've probably addressed Morty's racial comments more than any other Primate on BTF, and I don't recall your participation in those many public discussions.

Unlike Bivens, he possesses some substantive thoughts. OTOH, if David Duke were a big James Joyce fan, would you spend hours chatting him up about Irish literature too?

In fact when it comes to race, Morty's main concerns seem to be (1) constantly parroting statistics and academic papers that show blacks in unfavorable comparisons to whites; and (2) denouncing all affirmative action programs as racist.

Do you want me to provide you with a (very long) list of some of your ideological friends who beat on those two themes like The Daily Drum, and demand that you call them bigots?
   734. BDC Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:32 AM (#5678738)
USA Today, today, has a story (inside but previewed top left of Page One) about a Santa Fe survivor who now wants teachers to be armed. Just as a corrective to the idea that the MSM will only show liberal-approved young people.

   735. Stormy JE Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:35 AM (#5678742)
The past 18 months have been a humbling experience. After 2001, I fell for the notion that, by and large, federal law enforcement was capable of policing itself, and that it would never work in tandem with an administration to engage in despicable activities. Just because it happened during a Dem White House doesn't mean the potential for similar abuse can't happen with this one or a future GOP administration.

I'm unsure whether the Bureau requires wholesale fixing. Maybe the answer is as simple as raising the threshold for certain types of investigations? Also, the Constitution gives the executive branch enormous powers over foreign policy (also immigration) but Congress must step up and fulfill its oversight obligations on domestic issues -- and that includes federal law enforcement.
JE, while I'm fully aware of your desire to score debate points along with a tad too much ignorance of the faults of the Republican Party, you seem sincere in 322. But some questions remain:

Implied is that if one administration does it, then it is ok for another. In other words, Party X does it and you say "what about that". It is as if you're seeking a justification simply to defend your party, rather than defend what is right, as I've seen you do many times.

Congressional oversight is missing because both parties do what is best for the party, rather than the country. Why is oversight lacking now but not in the past?

You don't seem concerned about the high likelihood of abuses alleged to have been committed under Trump. You should know that Hillary Clinton is not President. It will take active citizen participation and vigilance to prevent tyranny. I hope your partisan blindness doesn't cause you to forget this.


There's no justification being offered, only friendly reminders that most of what's taking place is hardly unprecedented. In short, had folks here and in the MSM had held the previous administration to account for its controversial activities, there would be no need today to issue such reminders. Instead, the MSM was decidedly apathetic, while here at OTP Mouse would handwave controversies away and Sammy and zonk would accuse us of being nutters.

There's still oversight in Congress but the executive branch increasingly shrugs it away. Also, too many Members seem more interested in saying crazy #### in front of TV cameras in order to rile up the grassroots and fill their coffers, which does little to advance the larger cause. My larger point is that Congress needs to pass more legislation. Thanks to Obama and now Trump, way too much domestic policy is being promulgated by executive order.
   736. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:38 AM (#5678747)
Also, you gotta enjoy how some of the same folks who swear the Second Amendment only applies to muskets simultaneously claim the First Amendment envisioned Twitter.


I think the first amendment envisioned just fine the idea that there would continue to be public forums and when the leader of the government chooses to enter a public forum, he cannot selectively eject opinions that he disagrees with.

If a President wishes one-way communications and not to be tasked by those who disagree with him, then he can stay home and issue press releases.
   737. Stormy JE Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:41 AM (#5678753)
And you'll note that I defended you against that scurrilous accusation. IMO the both of you are far too loose with your exchange of insults. Jesus, is this what all Jewish families are like? (smile)
LOL. Why did I need to be defended? The issue is what type of scumbag person hurls such an epithet at another, *particularly* when the topic under discussion *wasn't* Israel?
   738. Stormy JE Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:44 AM (#5678755)
I think the first amendment envisioned just fine the idea that there would continue to be public forums and when the leader of the government chooses to enter a public forum, he cannot selectively eject opinions that he disagrees with.

If a President wishes one-way communications and not to be tasked by those who disagree with him, then he can stay home and issue press releases.
Right. Now do muskets.

Also, you are aware that there are thousands of public figures, including Democrat lawmakers, who regularly block critics, right? Got anything to say to those blokes?

Also also, have you found the incognito window feature yet?
   739. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:47 AM (#5678759)
NK summit cancelled.
   740. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:49 AM (#5678762)
Also, you are aware that there are thousands of public figures, including Democrat lawmakers, who regularly block critics, right? Got anything to say to those blokes?


If they're serving in elected office, then I would hope they either take the hint and unblock, or, if they waste the time and money to be sued over it, cover the costs.

Also also, have you found the incognito window feature yet?


Only one of my twitter accounts has been blocked by Trump, but regardless - this makes no sense... or at least, only makes sense if you access twitter through a browser and DON'T sign in. Go through the app or sign-in, it's immaterial.

   741. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:53 AM (#5678767)
NK summit cancelled.


For the best...

Though, I was holding out some hope that Kim would insist on it being moved to North Korea and Trump subsequently being kidnapped and held in an NK gulag.

I mean, ordinarily you'd say that it's a terrible precedent for the US to allow a nation to kidnap and torture its President... but we live in times of great exceptions.
   742. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:06 AM (#5678782)
Wait, I have to have denounced Obama vis-a-vis the media in order to have standing regarding Trump and his overt attempt to blackmail and/or attack a newspaper (or its owner) who are critical of him?


Is this your first encounter with Juanaboutism?
   743. Stormy JE Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:19 AM (#5678792)
Here's Grassley's latest letter.

EDIT: https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/2018-05-23 CEG to DOJ (Redacted Texts).pdf
   744. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:22 AM (#5678797)
NK summit cancelled.


LOL. The Dumpster Fire administration can't even hold a summit without it turning into a ... well ... a dumpster fire. I swear that administration can't find its own butt with both hands, a manual, and a Sherpa guide.

I know I really shouldn't be entertained by how gloriously incompetent the entire GOP is managing to appear this last little while, but the popcorn factor has been off the charts.
   745. Stormy JE Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:23 AM (#5678799)
Remember when Sugar Baby said this?
The holier-than-thou hypocrisy of big media companies who lay claim to the truth, but publish only enough to sugarcoat the lie, is why the public no longer respects them

Or, after zonk accused him of "screaming irrationally about fake news," responded thusly?
Thought you’d say that. Anytime anyone criticizes the media, the media shrieks “You’re just like Trump!” Why do you think he got elected in the first place? Because no ones believes you any more. You lost your credibility a long time ago.

Just kidding.

It was Elon Musk.

   746. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:24 AM (#5678801)
NK summit cancelled.

LOL. The Dumpster Fire administration can't even hold a summit without it turning into a ... well ... dumpster fire.


Trump couldn't negotiate his way out of a paper bag. This is a guy who couldn't even get a Bruce Springsteen cover band to play his inauguration, forget about the genuine article. Trump is a master negotiator like Hulk Hogan is a master wrestler.
   747. canadian shield Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:24 AM (#5678802)
But...they made Coins!
   748. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:24 AM (#5678805)
743: Your link gets a 404 error.
   749. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:25 AM (#5678808)
Just kidding.

It was Elon Musk.


JUANABOUT ELON MUSK ZONK? JUANABOUT ELON MUSK?
   750. Stormy JE Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:28 AM (#5678811)
LOL. The Dumpster Fire administration can't even hold a summit without it turning into a ... well ... a dumpster fire. I swear that administration can't find its own butt with both hands, a manual, and a Sherpa guide.
This is a curious comment. Trump said from the very beginning that this process might not work. If you want to mock anybody, go after the Trumpkins who were already crediting him with ending the Korean War.

And to be clear, better that there be no summit than a joke summit any day.
   751. Stormy JE Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:31 AM (#5678813)
Double post.
   752. Stormy JE Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:32 AM (#5678816)
743: Your link gets a 404 error.
That's strange, David. Try typing this into your search window: https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/2018-05-23 CEG to DOJ (Redacted Texts).pdf
   753. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:33 AM (#5678817)
So some links with information and thoughts about the upcoming election.

4 in 10 ‘Strongly Disapprove’ of Trump Presidency

A new Gallup poll finds that 41% of Americans “strongly disapprove” of the job Donald Trump is doing as president, and 26% strongly approve — almost exactly the same percentages as Gallup found 15 months ago, in the first weeks of his presidency.

“The percentage of Americans who strongly disapprove of the job Trump is doing is one of the highest for any president in the history of the Gallup ‘strongly’ question… Only two presidents have had higher strong disapproval ratings.”


So that is a nice start for 2018, but you don't want to fall into the same trap that the Clinton campaign fell into. Enter Nancy Pelosi (I hear she might be old, but still) ...
Nancy Pelosi’s 2018 strategy: ignore Trump, focus on the economy

“I would say that what is important to the American people is really what affects them in their lives,” Pelosi said. “We go into the campaigns, we want our candidates to be talking about how we’ll understand their apprehension and their aspirations. That we have a better deal, better jobs, better pay, better future.”

Trump is looming large over 2018, but Pelosi’s town hall drove home the point that national Democrats aren’t that interested in talking about the president — or the possibility of removing him from office. Despite Trump’s historically low approval rating and the desire from many Democratic voters across the country to see the president impeached, Pelosi isn’t biting.

“Impeachment is to me divisive,” she said. “If the facts are there, the facts are there; then this would have to be bipartisan to go forward. But if it is viewed as partisan, it will divide the country. And I just don’t think that is what we should do.”


Put another way, people don't need to be reminded they don't like GOP President Trump. They know that, so Democrats need to give them an affirmative reason to vote for Team Blue.

But still, that can't ignore the Mueller investigation, can they? Time to walk the fine line I guess ... At least they aren't going to ignore it
Apparently, the Democrats have been trying to find the right way to address the Mueller investigation in the election. Lo and behold, they found one:

The report found that when presented with two arguments — one that the year-old investigation should be ended and another that the multitude of indictments is proof it should continue — 59 percent of the public (and 63 percent of independents) side with the argument that the probe should keep going.

That’s a far better result for Democrats than other messages tested, including that ending the investigation would let the Russians win after interfering with the last presidential election and that an experienced official such as Mueller deserved to finish the investigation.

The only message that tested better was arguing that nobody, including the president of the United States, was above the law: 63 percent of the public sided with that argument, including 64 percent of independents.


Overall I like the strategy outlined above, but the devil is in the details and of course it needs to be executed well. Fortunately Team Blue has an "ace" in the hole.

“You have to stand proudly for the national anthem or you shouldn’t be playing, you shouldn’t be there, maybe you shouldn’t be in the county.”

— President Trump, in an interview on Fox & Friends.
   754. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:33 AM (#5678818)
JUANABOUT ELON MUSK ZONK? JUANABOUT ELON MUSK?


Elon Musk...

The guy who will inevitably build a perpetual shark jumping machine powered solely by his own smugness.

I.... words fail me.
   755. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:35 AM (#5678821)
Believe me, I have already mocked the Trumpistas who were crowing about his success when he hadn’t done a damned thing, but I don’t see why we wouldn’t mock Trump himself. It’s not that the summit was not a success; he would not necessarily be to blame for that (although he certainly might be). It’s that he incompetently set it up in the first place because he didn’t know what he was doing.
   756. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:36 AM (#5678823)
This is a curious comment. Trump said from the very beginning that this process might not work. If you want to mock anybody, go after the Trumpkins who were already crediting him with ending the Korean War.


Trump has said a million different things, most of which conflict with each other, so sure I bet at some point he said a dumbed down version of "this process might not work". Doesn't make the entire affair less ridiculous in the slightest.

I think he should still be nominated for a Nobel though.
   757. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:37 AM (#5678824)
And you'll note that I defended you against that scurrilous accusation. IMO the both of you are far too loose with your exchange of insults. Jesus, is this what all Jewish families are like? (smile)

LOL. Why did I need to be defended?


Because he called you a racist Zionist pig, and I thought that was totally out of line. You're an all-American Trump enabler, but that's not the same thing.

The issue is what type of scumbag person hurls such an epithet at another, *particularly* when the topic under discussion *wasn't* Israel?

I wasn't trying to address the topic under discussion. I just think that the two of you throw around epithets at each other far too casually. You should save that level of venom for those who really deserve it, like Trump.
   758. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:38 AM (#5678825)
Believe me, I have already mocked the Trumpistas who were crowing about his success when he hadn’t done a damned thing, but I don’t see why we wouldn’t mock Trump himself. It’s not that the summit was not a success; he would not necessarily be to blame for that (although he certainly might be). It’s that he incompetently set it up in the first place because he didn’t know what he was doing.


Circle of Trump Life.

   759. Lassus Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:38 AM (#5678826)
Seems entirely appropriate that a Trump fan would want to listen to the #winning Musk, as opposed to someone like #loser Bezos:

Hidden by Model 3 Mess, Tesla's Debt Problem Is About to Emerge
With all the car-making troubles that are hounding Tesla Inc. these days — from the Model 3 bottlenecks to the furious cash burn — it’s easy to overlook the company’s SolarCity headache.

But 16 months after Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk kicked up controversy by acquiring the solar-panel installer founded by two of his cousins, its obligations are a strain on Tesla’s finances. The $2 billion purchase came with a $2.9 billion debt load, and a chunk of that is soon coming due. That’s bad timing for a company churning through about $6,500 a minute and trying to stave off the need for another capital raise.
Tesla’s debt runs the gamut — convertible bonds, promissory notes, term loans, cash-equity debt, asset-backed securities. Most of the total is tied to Tesla the automaker.
Last week, a judge in Delaware ruled that shareholders who allege Musk duped them into backing the purchase could proceed with a lawsuit, saying they’d produced enough evidence showing the deal may have been flawed by conflicts of interest. Tesla said in a statement that the allegations are false and that it would take appropriate next steps in the case.
   760. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:39 AM (#5678827)
Trump said from the very beginning that this process might not work. If you want to mock anybody, go after the Trumpkins who were already crediting him with ending the Korean War.


SEEEEEEEN ANY?
   761. Ishmael Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:40 AM (#5678830)
Thanks for the responses to #712.
   762. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:40 AM (#5678831)
Elon Musk...

The guy who will inevitably build a perpetual shark jumping machine powered solely by his own smugness.

I.... words fail me.

I like a lot of things about ol' Musky. But nobody should have any delusions that he is in any way invested in free speech, or a free press. If the press isn't going to be sycophantic and hail his every move, he will do whatever he can to discredit them, or shut them down. For example, he sued Top Gear (and lost), over giving one of his cars a poor review.
   763. Stormy JE Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:41 AM (#5678832)
Believe me, I have already mocked the Trumpistas who were crowing about his success when he hadn’t done a damned thing, but I don’t see why we wouldn’t mock Trump himself. It’s not that the summit was not a success; he would not necessarily be to blame for that (although he certainly might be). It’s that he incompetently set it up in the first place because he didn’t know what he was doing.
Meh. Trump had unrealistic hopes but not unrealistic expectations. Hence, the caveats.

And again, the good news is that he's not so incredibly desperate for an agreement (legacy?) that he went forward anyway.
   764. Lassus Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:41 AM (#5678833)
743: Your link gets a 404 error.
That's strange, David.


Same here.
   765. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:44 AM (#5678839)
This is a curious comment. Trump said from the very beginning that this process might not work. If you want to mock anybody, go after the Trumpkins who were already crediting him with ending the Korean War.


Trump has said a million different things, most of which conflict with each other, so sure I bet at some point he said a dumbed down version of "this process might not work". Doesn't make the entire affair less ridiculous in the slightest.

Obviously this whole Summit idea was a typical Trumpian political stunt that was dead in the water from the start,** for reasons spelled out by the likes of Max Boot and Nick Eberstadt. But in 1% defense of The Naked Emperor, he repeatedly did say that it was possible that nothing would come of it, and/or that it would have to be cancelled.

** Much like his talk about "tax reform" that wouldn't favor the rich, his blathering about making health care cheaper and better, etc., etc., etc.
   766. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:47 AM (#5678840)
I can just picture JE excusing a failed Obama policy, because Obama said beforehand "it might not work". Right after a pig flies over a frozen hell.
   767. Hysterical & Useless Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:48 AM (#5678842)
I think he should still be nominated for a Nobel though.


For comedy?
   768. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:48 AM (#5678843)
743: Your link gets a 404 error.

That's strange, David.

Same here.

For those who are counting, that's JE's 59th dead end Twitter link, although in his defense most of those 404's are more substantive in terms of content than the successful link would've been.
   769. Stormy JE Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:50 AM (#5678844)
722. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: February 07, 2018 at 12:05 AM (#5620906)
I agree/disagree with different sides depending on the issue and wouldn't consider myself a libertarian. Consequently I've been called a conservative on a few occasions, even though I self-identify as left-of-center.

there's only one party for thinking people to really vote for (unless I guess you're a 1% and just vote self interest and honestly that's cool) and that Democratic. That's just the reality of the situation. The current GOP is an absolute disaster for the country. They are anti-science, anti-people, anti-progress and in general anti-USA as so many of their policies weaken our industrial and intellectual base in order to strengthen their Kleptocracy.

You want a ####### example, topical? Peruse right wing reaction to PRIVATE SPACE COMPANY SPACEX LAUNCHING A ####### CAR TOWARDS MARS TODAY AND LANDING TWO BOOSTERS. And why? Because Elon Musk has the temerity to challenge the GOP on global warming and immigration policy.

This is the ####### pro business, pro American Inovation party?

As SpaceX shows -- the US is still the greatest nation on earth and has the most resilient, talented, diverse people but the political system is failing us. I do believe that. It's not just Trump; Trump is just a symptom of a broken process. The same broken process that nominated Hillary.that nominated Hillary.


Emphasis mine.

You folks are beyond precious.
   770. Stormy JE Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:53 AM (#5678847)
I can just picture JE excusing a failed Obama policy, because Obama said beforehand "it might not work". Right after a pig flies over a frozen hell.
Criticism is apt. I was responding to Mouse's over-the-top reaction.
   771. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:54 AM (#5678848)
I think he should still be nominated for a Nobel though.

For comedy?


I hear good things about his remake of Guy Getting Hit in Groin by Football.
   772. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:05 AM (#5678855)
He's no George C Scott.

(Alternate title: "Fat 'Un is no Patton")
   773. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:05 AM (#5678857)
You folks are beyond precious nuanced.
   774. BDC Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:06 AM (#5678860)
Late to comment on #712, but I agree with several here that if you feel you need to charge someone with murder in such a case, your penalties for accessory to assault with intent to kill a cop are probably not strong enough. Oblique punishment is not IMO a good idea.
   775. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:07 AM (#5678862)
Criticism is apt. I was responding to Mouse's over-the-top reaction.


Hey, I am allowed to be amused by Old Faithful and his never ending stream of comedic failures. You guys have your grubby little mitts on the levers of power and the sole redeeming virtue of the situation is you guys put Trump in charge thus negating nearly all of your advantage.
   776. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:08 AM (#5678863)
NYT has received the original draft of the Trump note to Kim. the following was left out:

"Hey, I just met you and this is crazy
But here's my number, so call me maybe
It's hard to look right at you baby
But here's my number, so call me maybe"
   777. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:08 AM (#5678864)
Welp, I just ordered one of the summit coins.

Though, I see the original photos have been replaced with a "PHOTOS COMING SOON" image so I will be terribly unhappy if my coin does not carry the design originally promised.
Fortunately, I can return it...

The Coin Will be Made Whether or Not the Summit Occurs as Scheduled

Because the Theme is
Coming Closer to Peace and Celebrates the Act of Communication Among Countries

If Summit Does Not Occur You can Request a Refund but Most Supporters Have Said They Want This Heirloom of
Political History Regardless of Outcome.


Yes, I want an heirloom of political history when the dotard and rocket man stopped calling each other names long enough for Trump to accept a meeting NK has desperately wanted for 30 years and his state media sources began bemoaning poor, poor Kim, forced to murder his people when all he really wants to do is watch the NBA finals and karaoke some Britney Spears.

Moments like this need such commemoration.
   778. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:19 AM (#5678870)
For those who are counting, that's JE's 59th dead end Twitter link, although in his defense most of those 404's are more substantive in terms of content than the successful link would've been.
No, Andy, it's not a twitter link.
   779. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:23 AM (#5678882)
Welp, I just ordered one of the summit coins.


It won't let me order one. I want one. If I can't get one I will totally buy yours off of you.

EDIT: Happy days, it finally responded. It looks like I will have to wait 2 long months. Totally worth it though.

EDIT 2: Still spinning in the cart. I hope it goes through. And yes I did sign up for the newsletter. What other glorious gifts might I get? The sky is the limit!
   780. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:25 AM (#5678884)
Isn't there something called "accessory to a murder"? Depending on what Smith was formally charged with, other than the length of the sentence and the age of the defendant, this doesn't seem all that unusual a case.
This has nothing to do with being an accessory. That's not what the concept of accessory liability is.
   781. Eddo Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:28 AM (#5678887)
If Summit Does Not Occur You can Request a Refund but Most Supporters Have Said They Want This Heirloom of
Political History Regardless of Outcome.

That reads like as if Trump himself wrote it.
   782. Eddo Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:29 AM (#5678889)
JE, are you under the impression Elon Musk is viewed especially favorable by liberals? Seems like every day I'm reading some lefty site's criticism of some new Musk comment or Tesla announcement.
   783. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:32 AM (#5678892)
That reads like as if Trump himself wrote it.


All part of the charm.
   784. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:32 AM (#5678893)
For those who are counting, that's JE's 59th dead end Twitter link, although in his defense most of those 404's are more substantive in terms of content than the successful link would've been.

No, Andy, it's not a twitter link.


My bad, but that's what nearly all of his previous dead end links have been to.
   785. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:33 AM (#5678895)
It won't let me order one. I want one. If I can't get one I will totally buy yours off of you.

EDIT: Happy days, it finally responded. It looks like I will have to wait 2 long months. Totally worth it though.


Uh-oh.

I just several additional e-mails thanking me for booking my two week stay at the Trump International Hotel in Washington DC, another thanking me for my investment in 666 5th Avenue and stating that my $100,000,000 should be remitted in unmarked bills, and finally, a third suggesting some more Ivanka handbags I might like in addition to the six I supposedly purchased already.

I also just got a voicemail from someone named "Mike" saying that the porn star abortion is all taken care just as soon as the check clears.

GAH! Who reads the ToS??!?!?!
   786. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:39 AM (#5678900)

Welp, I just ordered one of the summit coins.

Though, I see the original photos have been replaced with a "PHOTOS COMING SOON" image so I will be terribly unhappy if my coin does not carry the design originally promised.
Fortunately, I can return it...

The Coin Will be Made Whether or Not the Summit Occurs as Scheduled

Because the Theme is
Coming Closer to Peace and Celebrates the Act of Communication Among Countries

If Summit Does Not Occur You can Request a Refund but Most Supporters Have Said They Want This Heirloom of
Political History Regardless of Outcome.

You might have also noted the price:
Regular Price: $24.95
Deal of the Day Price: $19.95

Now if only they'd throw in a Trump University diploma, I might've gone for it myself.
   787. Stormy JE Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:41 AM (#5678903)
JE, are you under the impression Elon Musk is viewed especially favorable by liberals? Seems like every day I'm reading some lefty site's criticism of some new Musk comment or Tesla announcement.
I don't recall Musk ever being a "favorite" of liberals but they couldn't wait to buy his vehicles. Once he agreed to participate in Trump's advisory boards, however, his reputation took a YUGE hit. No wonder there are so many more pieces critical of him these days...
   788. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:41 AM (#5678904)
Now if only they'd throw in a Trump University diploma, I might've gone for it myself.


I'm still going through all the bonuses I got from buying it, but another e-mail appears to be a Trump U tuition bill.
   789. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:43 AM (#5678906)
I don't recall Musk ever being a "favorite" of liberals but they couldn't wait to buy his vehicles. Once he agreed to participate in Trump's advisory boards, however, his reputation took a YUGE hit. No wonder there are so many more pieces critical of him these days...


Well, if Henry Morgenthau Jr could drive a Ford...
   790. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:46 AM (#5678908)
Nothing Elon Musk does or says has one goddamned thing to do with whether or not Trump is a clown.

In other news, who's making money off these coins? Some WH operating fund? Do proceeds go into the treasury? It wouldn't surprise me if Franklin Mint or whoever pushed this stuff, but I didn't know the "White House Gift Shop" was a thing...
   791. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:48 AM (#5678909)
Jason you little ##### keep my words out yo mouth. Especially when you post them context free while knocking down a straw man.

Elon is a helluva innovator and trumpistas hated him when he was sparring with donald on climate change. Now that he wants to ban all negative press he gets, like Don himself he is a hero. It is lamentable, to say the least.
   792. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:48 AM (#5678910)
In other news, who's making money off these coins? Some WH operating fund? Do proceeds go into the treasury? It wouldn't surprise me if Franklin Mint or whoever pushed this stuff, but I didn't know the "White House Gift Shop" was a thing...


I don't care. It finally went through and I am so happy. I feel like a kid again ordering something by mail using cereal box tops (yes, the website is that bad). But still in only 2 months I will get a treasure in the mail that I almost certainly won't remember ordering, and which I will only ever use to cover my cards during poker at my house. I love capitalism.
   793. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:49 AM (#5678911)
I’d be really interested in some perspective from you guys on this case, and the analysis in the article.

Do You Have to Kill to Be a Murderer?

[...]

But despite the desire to hold someone responsible whenever a tragedy happens, we should only punish people for what they have actually done, not for crimes that others committed as a consequence (even a foreseeable consequence) of their actions. Treating people as ends in themselves, rather than as mere means, requires at least this much.
That obviously can't literally be true. If I hire a hitman to kill FLTB, we hold me fully responsible for the murder even though I did not pull the trigger. The essay that you post keeps talking about punishing someone for a crime they didn't commit, but of course that's question begging.

The felony murder rule is not something esoteric; it's a routine aspect of criminal law. In essence, murder is generally a specific intent crime -- that is, you must intend to kill someone to be guilty of murder. (If you do something and someone dies but you didn't intend the death, you're generally guilty of a lesser crime like manslaughter or negligent homicide.) But if you intend to commit certain dangerous felonies, that supplies the requisite intent to charge someone with murder if a person dies as a consequence of those felonies.
   794. Lassus Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:49 AM (#5678912)
I don't recall Musk ever being a "favorite" of liberals but they couldn't wait to buy his vehicles.

Compelling.
   795. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:50 AM (#5678914)
I don't recall Musk ever being a "favorite" of liberals but they couldn't wait to buy his vehicles. Once he agreed to participate in Trump's advisory boards, however, his reputation took a YUGE hit. No wonder there are so many more pieces critical of him these days...


Meh. I own a hybrid and am looking to get an electric vehicle and his cars are really low on my list. Not reliable enough for me. The most important consideration for a car is that it be super extra reliable.
   796. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:55 AM (#5678916)
JE, are you under the impression Elon Musk is viewed especially favorable by liberals? Seems like every day I'm reading some lefty site's criticism of some new Musk comment or Tesla announcement.


Only people I really see worship at the altar of Musk are wannabe "entrepreneurs."
   797. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:55 AM (#5678918)
Now if only they'd throw in a Trump University diploma, I might've gone for it myself.

I'm still going through all the bonuses I got from buying it, but another e-mail appears to be a Trump U tuition bill.


Keep scrolling down and you'll get to the student loan application.
   798. Tom T Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:56 AM (#5678920)
I don't recall Musk ever being a "favorite" of liberals but they couldn't wait to buy his vehicles.


Has Jason confused "liberals" with "technocrats"?

Yeah, many of the *engineers* I know have been over-the-top drooling about Tesla for close on 18 years now (quite a few of our co-op students worked for them), but the *liberals* I know are far more in the mode of "Um...that electricity still largely comes from burning fossil fuels, and those batteries use metals/chemicals that are dangerous to mine or require societal abuses to obtain ...."

Now that I think of it, most of the electric car owners on campus would probably NOT be classified as "liberal" except under the most liberal (i.e., Jason's) definition of the term.

Could just be an engineering University-town oddity, though.
   799. Hysterical & Useless Posted: May 24, 2018 at 12:01 PM (#5678922)
I own a hybrid and am looking to get an electric vehicle


With full-electric vehicles, aren't you just off-siting your pollution? That is, you're buying electricity from the grid; presumably, at least some of that electricity (and at times, much of it) has been produced from burning petroleum or coal. What is the efficiency of power plants vs modern auto engines?

Genuine ask, not at all knowledgeable here

ETA: Tom types faster
   800. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: May 24, 2018 at 12:01 PM (#5678923)
Has Jason confused "liberals" with "technocrats"?


Meh, he's confused Donald Trump with someone worth throwing away any last vestiges of character on...

Could be he's just confused in general.
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