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Sunday, May 06, 2018

OTP 2018 May 7: George F. Will Is the Umpire on Politics and Baseball

I sat down Washington Post columnist and author George F. Will in Austin, Texas, in late March to chat about the current administration and America’s favorite pastime — baseball. We discuss politics in the age of polarization and the future of America.

Baseball is the sport of America’s future, Will argues, as parents stop letting their children play football because of the dangers of lifelong head and body injuries.

 

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 06, 2018 at 02:42 PM | 1452 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hot takes, off topic, oldwarhorse, politics

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   1401. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: May 13, 2018 at 12:15 PM (#5671515)
Odd, in the several days since the story broke I've seen no liberals in my Facebook feed decrying Schneiderman.

He was out within hours of the story breaking. Were his friends actually 'decrying Schneiderman' as late as the morning of Mother's Day, days after the resignation, it's hard not to imagine Ray slamming those friends as virtue signalers. Heads you lose, Tails Ray goes to another party with Eric Trump.
   1402. BDC Posted: May 13, 2018 at 12:15 PM (#5671516)
in the several days since the story broke I've seen no liberals in my Facebook feed decrying Schneiderman

Hey, today I posted a picture of a kitten.
   1403. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 13, 2018 at 01:15 PM (#5671524)
Stop being such a goddamned idiot Ray.
   1404. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 13, 2018 at 01:28 PM (#5671526)
1389: Waiting for Andy to rant that it's dishonest to quote from a source other than the Washington Post or NYT, even if you link to the original source.
   1405. McCoy Posted: May 13, 2018 at 01:39 PM (#5671529)
Once more for the slow ... do you think racism exists? If so, why is it some here dismiss every possible instance of racism as "Nah, there are totally excuses to be made"?

Funny how nearly every admits there is racism, it is a fact of life for minorities, and yet we never actually see any racism at play. It is all excused away.

Yes every reported instance of racism is not actually racism, but some of them are. Except to some here.


Well, I don't dismiss every possible instance of racism so perhaps a manger getting into an argument at Starbucks is not so clear cut RACISM! I mean the same can happen the other way as well. If you think every situation that goes viral is racism at its finest it is quite possible that occasionally you'll be mistaken.
   1406. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 13, 2018 at 01:51 PM (#5671534)
Well, I don't dismiss every possible instance of racism so perhaps a manger getting into an argument at Starbucks is not so clear cut RACISM! I mean the same can happen the other way as well. If you think every situation that goes viral is racism at its finest it is quite possible that occasionally you'll be mistaken.


So you agree some of them are racism? But still dismiss every actual event you see as certainly not racism, because hey you can find an excuse every time.

As I have said multiple times many of these instances are not racism. Perhaps the Starbucks instance is not. I think it likely it is, but sure I could be wrong. However, I am 100% sure than many of the instances that go viral are racism (to some degree or another). And there are many thousands of instances we never hear about.

But yes every single episode, except super rarely, can be excused with enough justification.
   1407. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 13, 2018 at 02:02 PM (#5671538)
Once more for the slow ... do you think racism exists? If so, why is it some here dismiss every possible instance of racism as "Nah, there are totally excuses to be made"?
Because the truth matters? I'm not quite sure I understand the mindset, "What does it matter if this anecdote that I've just relayed is accurate?"

If Donald Trump uses the death of Katie Steinle as an example of illegal aliens being murderers, should we ignore the fact that the incident apparently didn't happen that way? I mean, it doesn't change the fact that there are illegal aliens who are murderers, right? So why is it so important to point out the truth of that incident?
   1408. McCoy Posted: May 13, 2018 at 02:18 PM (#5671543)
What David said, but again I didn't and do not dismiss every actual event. If 5 cop cars roll up on a group of black people in a cemetery and check ID and ask about their criminal record I believe there is a good chance that someone somewhere along the process of that incident was/is racist.

I also believe that there are thousands of instances of racism that we never hear about but there are also millions of confrontations that happen that we don't hear about that are not racist incidents.
   1409. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 13, 2018 at 02:30 PM (#5671544)
Because the truth matters? I'm not quite sure I understand the mindset, "What does it matter if this anecdote that I've just relayed is accurate?"


Yup. The truth, like I never said it absolutely was racism. Because of course I never did and we can never know one way or another.

Or the truth like the fact that the same folks argue against every publicized instance of possible racism, and some of them are real instances and some are not.

Or the truth (again) that we will never know one way or another. And making excuses for the Starbucks people doesn't lead to the truth any more than blindly blaming them does.

EDIT: It is funny that you regularly attack Stretchy when he uses quotes exactly like you did above. I guess you hold yourself to a different standard than you do him, but I would suggest a higher standard and not a lower one.
   1410. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 13, 2018 at 02:35 PM (#5671546)
I also believe that there are thousands of instances of racism that we never hear about but there are also millions of confrontations that happen that we don't hear about that are not racist incidents.


Thank goodness you added that paragraph in order to minimize the impact of racism as much as you could. Well done. Added much to the strength of your argument.
   1411. McCoy Posted: May 13, 2018 at 03:23 PM (#5671554)
Is that what I did? If so is it any worse than your statement which creates the illusion that every single confrontation has at its root racism?
   1412. McCoy Posted: May 13, 2018 at 03:26 PM (#5671556)

Or the truth (again) that we will never know one way or another. And making excuses for the Starbucks people doesn't lead to the truth any more than blindly blaming them does.


I guess I don't get what you're arguing about. You appear to be blindly blaming Starbucks and you appear to be arguing that every situation that comes up is because of racism and yet you acknowledge that it doesn't lead to the truth.
   1413. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 13, 2018 at 03:47 PM (#5671562)
Because the truth matters? I'm not quite sure I understand the mindset, "What does it matter if this anecdote that I've just relayed is accurate?"

Neither do I, whether the accuser is Al Sharpton or Donald Trump. It's both wrong and stupid (or stupid and wrong) to fabricate incidents to make a broader point.

If Donald Trump uses the death of Katie Steinle as an example of illegal aliens being murderers, should we ignore the fact that the incident apparently didn't happen that way? I mean, it doesn't change the fact that there are illegal aliens who are murderers, right? So why is it so important to point out the truth of that incident?

Where demagoguery exists at a higher level is when isolated true incidents are taken to represent a broader reality far more than any honest look could possibly justify. Trump's citation of "Mexican rapists" in justification of his border wall would be one obvious example of this, as would the citation of crime statistics to justify disproportionate police questioning of minorities.

It's the flip side of the idea that "all white people are racist", but the critical difference is that the people who exercise the first type of bogus thinking have far more power to do something about their prejudices than those who hold the second set of beliefs. The bottom line is that while prejudice likely exists in roughly equal proportions among different demographic groups, the way our society is organized pretty much guarantees that the prejudices of whites are far more likely to have negative real world impact than the prejudices of any other racial group.
   1414. Ray (CTL) Posted: May 13, 2018 at 03:49 PM (#5671563)
Just like they would have at at Starbucks, I'm sure Ray and SBB and McCoy would also have been surrounded by cops in this situation.


Not sure what I'm supposed to take from this. Some racists called in a false tip? I never denied that there are racists out there. And I'm fine with criminalizing false tips that amount to hoaxes.

I'm not sure whether the cops acted appropriately here or not. It seems wildly overly aggressive to the point of being needlessly dangerous, but it would depend on facts that the article doesn't have, namely, what the tipsters told 911 and so what information the cops were operating on.

But I have no idea what this has to do with the Starbucks situation. If your name were SBB people would call you a troll for pretending the situations were similar.
   1415. zenbitz Posted: May 13, 2018 at 03:58 PM (#5671567)
Unconscious bias is a real thing.
   1416. McCoy Posted: May 13, 2018 at 04:03 PM (#5671570)
That's such a copout. You don't know if you acted because of racism and I don't know but that's okay because unconscious bias is a real thing.
   1417. tshipman Posted: May 13, 2018 at 04:08 PM (#5671574)
Make up your mind. What the #### do you support? (Aside from the opposite of whatever Trump does.) You hate invasion, you hate dropping in advisors, you hate airstrikes, you hate allies conducting airstrikes, you hate funding and training rebels, you hate sanctions?

Oh, that's right. You cheer the in-the-dead-of-night delivery of pallets of hundreds of millions of euros and Swiss francs to a murderous anti-American regime and pompous posing in front of a Che mural with an unrepentant anti-American dictator.


I tend to think of myself as a pragmatist.

When it comes to intervening in other countries' business, I try to focus on what has worked well, and try to avoid what has proven to not work.

What has been tried in terms of regime change:
1. Full scale invasion--it's expensive, has terrible ROI, and results take literally 30+ years. I view this option as requiring the equivalent of strict scrutiny: maybe it's a good idea, but it requires very limited circumstances to be effective. Afghanistan 2001 was one of those situations. Even though it has been a long mission, it was necessary. Iraq, as everyone now acknowledges, was a failure.
2. Air support only--mixed results. Yugoslavia is a positive, Libya is complicated, but trending bad (short term success, medium term disaster, unclear future), Syria is a failure.
3. Diplomacy/Sanctions--mixed results, but generally positive. Certainly you would point to South Africa as the best possible outcome of international sanctions. You can also look at China, with the opening up in the 70's producing a great expansion of human welfare at the cost of enriching totalitarians. The counterpoints would mainly be North Korea and Cuba--change never came and their citizens have suffered with comparatively few consequences to their leaders.

The more a country looks like Yugoslavia, the more likely I am to think that an air campaign will work. The more a country looks like South Africa or China, the more likely I am to think that diplomacy will work.

To me, Iran looks more like South Africa or China than it does like Yugoslavia.

Frankly, the Neo-Con track record is so hilariously suspect that I'm quite likely to consider anything supported by neo-cons to just be a bad idea because they've had so, so many bad ideas.

   1418. Brian C Posted: May 13, 2018 at 04:22 PM (#5671579)
As I have said multiple times many of these instances are not racism. Perhaps the Starbucks instance is not. I think it likely it is, but sure I could be wrong. However, I am 100% sure than many of the instances that go viral are racism (to some degree or another).

Anyone who's making judgments about the prevalence of racism based on "viral" events is a fatuous idiot. Like, these are by definition a series of isolated incidents. You could hardly do a better job of signalling that you're unserious about racism than by relying on this stuff to make any kind of point whatsoever. And along the same lines, you could hardly make it easier for actual racists to detract from the problems we have than by referring to what are definitionally a series of isolated incidents.

I continue to think that the biggest obstacle to progressivism is actual progressives.
   1419. Lassus Posted: May 13, 2018 at 04:48 PM (#5671601)
Anyone who's making judgments about the prevalence of racism based on "viral" events is a fatuous idiot... You could hardly do a better job of signalling that you're unserious about racism than by relying on this stuff to make any kind of point whatsoever.

The actual black people experiencing these events are relying on the events - and the seemingly endless supply of similar isolated incidents - to make a rather specific point. I assume the unserious fatuous idiocy extends to them? Are they the biggest obstacle to racial progress?
   1420. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 13, 2018 at 04:49 PM (#5671603)
Anyone who's making judgments about the prevalence of racism based on "viral" events is a fatuous idiot. Like, these are by definition a series of isolated incidents. You could hardly do a better job of signalling that you're unserious about racism than by relying on this stuff to make any kind of point whatsoever.

Obviously these recorded incidents by themselves don't prove anything, but they're symptomatic of the sort of unrecorded treatment that black people have routinely undergone.

And how is a "serious" person supposed to react to these videos, beyond establishing that selective editing doesn't distort the underlying facts? Is ignoring them your idea of serious?

I continue to think that the biggest obstacle to progressivism is actual progressives.

Yes, if progressives would just STFU, racism would magically disappear, just like slavery and Jim Crow went away due to the hidden hand of free market forces.

EDIT: coke to Lassus
   1421. DavidFoss Posted: May 13, 2018 at 05:23 PM (#5671616)
Odd, in the several days since the story broke I've seen no liberals in my Facebook feed decrying Schneiderman.

Samantha Bee's Wednesday night show featured her standing by a 20 foot screen that says F**K YOU ERIC SCHNEIDERMAN sandwiched between two hands with the middle finger raised. Its on her youtube channel and that is the cover-image for the A-block of that episode -- so you can check out the image without actually watching the video. Is that clear enough? :-)
   1422. zenbitz Posted: May 13, 2018 at 05:29 PM (#5671620)
Because I know it will torque Morty (among others), Dr. James Watson is getting absolutely crucified on my (science) Twitter this weekend.

Also, Eric Lander but that's not really controversial.
   1423. Ray (CTL) Posted: May 13, 2018 at 05:30 PM (#5671621)
Samantha Bee's Wednesday night show featured her standing by a 20 foot screen that says F**K YOU ERIC SCHNEIDERMAN sandwiched between two hands with the middle finger raised. Its on her youtube channel and that is the cover-image for the A-block of that episode -- so you can check out the image without actually watching the video. Is that clear enough? :-)


Because Schneiderman had used Samantha Bee as a patsy. He played her for a fool.

It's no wonder she was upset for having been revealed as the naive simpleton don't-question-a-fellow-virtue-signaler that she is. She thought he was a pure as the driven snow hero... because he was on Her Side. What a hilarious example.
   1424. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: May 13, 2018 at 05:59 PM (#5671635)
Heads you lose, Tails Ray goes to another party with Eric Trump.
   1425. perros Posted: May 13, 2018 at 06:03 PM (#5671637)
Dr. James Watson is getting absolutely crucified on my (science) Twitter this weekend.

Be sure to wash your hands afterwards.
   1426. Lassus Posted: May 13, 2018 at 07:10 PM (#5671654)
Shut up, hippie.
   1427. Tom T Posted: May 13, 2018 at 07:45 PM (#5671659)
Also, Eric Lander but that's not really controversial.


Heh. When I started my PhD program, the folks in charge felt that as an engineer who had not taken any life science courses in undergrad, it made sense to have me sit through freshman biology (7.012) to "get up to speed". Lander was the instructor for the course and the only thing I meaningfully remember was that he had Philip Sharp come to lecture a day or two after he'd been notified he had won the 1993 Nobel Prize for Physiology or Medicine...heck, maybe it was even the same day. Anyway, as one would expect, biology hadn't changed that much since '85-'86 and that course was the biggest waste of my time as a student (short of our ME department docking points on my homeworks because I had left too many lines between my name and the start of the solution). Even at that time, Lander seemed like an attention whore (we were clearly supposed to be awed by his connection to Sharp), so I'm not shocked by how things have fallen out....
   1428. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 13, 2018 at 09:19 PM (#5671666)
I guess I don't get what you're arguing about. You appear to be blindly blaming Starbucks and you appear to be arguing that every situation that comes up is because of racism and yet you acknowledge that it doesn't lead to the truth.


You don't know what I am arguing about, but boy you sure are positive I am wrong? Too funny. Maybe the problem is on your end.

And yeah I am not arguing "that every situation that comes up is because of racism", so you are absolutely correct that you are clueless. In fact I wrote that many such situations are not a result of racism. Sadly reading comprehension seems poor in some this Sunday. Oh well.
   1429. Brian C Posted: May 13, 2018 at 10:07 PM (#5671672)
The actual black people experiencing these events are relying on the events - and the seemingly endless supply of similar isolated incidents - to make a rather specific point. I assume the unserious fatuous idiocy extends to them? Are they the biggest obstacle to racial progress?

As it happens, I actually do think that focusing on incidents like this are counterproductive regardless of whether black people or white people are doing it. It's more obnoxious when white people do it, because white people as a general rule like to repost stuff on social media and then call it a day social justice-wise to enjoy an evening of patting themselves on the back for being such fiery allies, while black people tend to be just a bit more invested in better outcomes.

Still, incidents like the Starbucks thing basically tell us nothing about anything. We know that black people have less access to good education, good housing, good jobs, good healthcare, good financial products, etc, etc, etc, compared to white people. That some cashier somewhere was too eager to call the cops tells us nothing about this state of things, even if we assume that the cashier acted out of racism, which is far from certain (I've worked in the service industry and called cops on loiterers of various colors myself). It's a distraction. That some black people get caught up in these distractions does not change that.
Yes, if progressives would just STFU, racism would magically disappear, just like slavery and Jim Crow went away due to the hidden hand of free market forces.

Oh look, a progressive who sees making stupid arguments or staying silent as the only two choices. How novel.
   1430. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 13, 2018 at 10:22 PM (#5671675)
Oh look, a progressive who sees making stupid arguments or staying silent as the only two choices. How novel.

So what's your Third Way? I've stated mine in #1413, and feel free to critique it with something other than insults.

P. S. I've also called the cops on loiterers who were making themselves loud and disruptive,** but I didn't do it as a first response, or get wrapped up in the idea that loitering per se is some sort of a serious offense.

** A group of loud and besotted basketball players underneath our apartment window at 1:00 in the morning on a weeknight, and one particular panhandler who was verbally accosting customers in front of my former book shop's entrance. If he'd simply come in and used my bathroom, there wouldn't have been any problem even if he'd never bought a book.
   1431. Lassus Posted: May 13, 2018 at 11:38 PM (#5671677)
It's a distraction. That some black people get caught up in these distractions does not change that.

Telling people that bringing attention to what their lives and the lives of their friends and loved ones are like is simply a distraction seems quite a bit more obnoxious than anything I'm doing.

Maybe telling black people their ideas are stupider than yours will work better. Good luck.

   1432. Brian C Posted: May 14, 2018 at 12:36 AM (#5671681)
Telling people that bringing attention to what their lives and the lives of their friends and loved ones are like is simply a distraction seems quite a bit more obnoxious than anything I'm doing.

Disagreeing with a hypothetical black person is obnoxious to you?
So what's your Third Way?

Make smart arguments.
   1433. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: May 14, 2018 at 04:07 AM (#5671685)

As Jerusalem prepares for the inauguration of its new US embassy on Monday, the city’s best football team has announced it is renaming itself in honour of Donald Trump.

In December, the US president defied global opposition by recognising Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, angering Palestinians and Muslims around the world who see the ancient city as a capital of their future state.

“For 70 years has Jerusalem been awaiting international recognition, until President Donald Trump, in a courageous move, recognised Jerusalem as the eternal capital of Israel,” read a statement on Beitar Jerusalem’s official Facebook page.

“President Trump has shown courage, and true love of the Israeli people and their capital, and these days other countries are following his lead in giving Jerusalem its rightful status ... The chairmen of the club, the owner Eli Tabib and the executive manager Eli Ohana have decided to add to the club’s title the name of the American President who made history, and from now on will be called Beitar Trump Jerusalem.”


Graun

The ironic gift quotient with a team jersey for the Trumpkin in your life is off the charts here people!

Here are some fun tidbits about Beitar Jerusalem:


It is unsurprising that the club has supported Trump’s divisive move. It is the only club in the Israeli Premier League never to have signed an Arab player and some sections of its fanbase have a reputation for racism.

When the club signed two Chechen Muslims in 2013, the players were verbally abused and spat at by fans. The club’s offices were later set on fire by fans apparently angry at the Chechens’ arrival.



   1434. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: May 14, 2018 at 05:20 AM (#5671686)
Beitar Jerusalem lost this year's Israel State Cup final, 3-1. But Beitar continues to insist that they actually scored the most goals.
   1435. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 14, 2018 at 06:45 AM (#5671691)
Once more for the slow ... do you think racism exists? If so, why is it some here dismiss every possible instance of racism as "Nah, there are totally excuses to be made"?


Well it could be that I’m a terrible racist who longs for the good old days of slavery - it’s an oft-repeated assertion in the white supremecist community that the trans-Atlantic slave trade was a Jewish operation after all.

But maybe there’s another explanation that doesn’t lean so heavily on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Maybe there’s something to be said about not automatically assigning victim status to someone based solely on their word, especially when it comes with the seemingly-improbable caveat, “Oh I couldn’t write down the details because I was so traumatized, and also my phone battery died as soon as I tried to use it.” Especially when a well-placed claim of victimhood can generate gobs of free money.

When it comes to sympathy for the black man I’m reminded of the old jab about not being so open-minded that your brain falls out. Onthis very hallowed forum we have otherwise clear-thinking people claiming, in all seriousness, that during a violent riot we had unhinged white women robbing black men of their purses.

Think about that - during a violent urban riot some people thought it was credible that a photo of a black man shown holding a bottle of liquor with a bar pourer still attached while playing tug-of-war over a purse with a white woman, was actually captured in the act of being robbed by the white woman. Who was also a drunk. Or hepped up on goofballs. Whatever.

Why? What would make someone ignore the obvious and engage in such nonsensical contortions? Why would someone embrace such a transparently improbable narrative in spite of all the evidence to the contrary?

So excuse me for not automatically accepting a story with such obvious red flags (“I couldn’t write down his badge number because my hands were shaking! Why, all of our hands were shaking too hard! We looked like a Shaker community town dance!”) as de facto evidence of potentially heinous, and potentially lucrative bigotry.
   1436. Lassus Posted: May 14, 2018 at 06:55 AM (#5671692)
I'm convinced. Are you going to do a couple Jewish lawyers next? I hear a few people also think those are a problem.
   1437. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 14, 2018 at 06:59 AM (#5671693)
Lawyers in general are a problem.
   1438. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 14, 2018 at 07:34 AM (#5671696)
Make smart arguments.


What a lovely world you have constructed in your dreams, where the only arguments one need ever to make are pure logic.

Racism is not a "conclusion" reached by logic, and thinking it can be reduced or eliminated by logic is incredibly foolish and amazingly naive. I mean sure it is a cute notion and I too would prefer that logic had a stronger hold in shaping such things, but it doesn't. Emotional arguments are deployed on BOTH sides of the issue, because in large part those types of arguments are effective - especially since it is mostly an emotional and not a logical issue.

By all means deploy all the logic you can. You won't get anywhere on the issue, but gosh you and the other ivory tower types can sit together in your balcony seats and impress each other.
   1439. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 14, 2018 at 07:35 AM (#5671697)
Well it could be that I’m a terrible racist who longs for the good old days of slavery - it’s an oft-repeated assertion in the white supremecist community that the trans-Atlantic slave trade was a Jewish operation after all.


?

I have called exactly one person here (or IRL) a racist, and it wasn't you. Martyrdom is a bad look.
   1440. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 14, 2018 at 07:38 AM (#5671698)
I’m just raising possibilities. Obviously I’m not a racist unless you consider the Irish a race, instead of a cautionary tale.
   1441. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 14, 2018 at 07:38 AM (#5671699)
And by the way I have submitted a new weeks thread. Look for it.
   1442. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 14, 2018 at 08:19 AM (#5671704)
Oh look, a progressive who sees making stupid arguments or staying silent as the only two choices. How novel.

So what's your Third Way? I've stated mine in #1413, and feel free to critique it with something other than insults.

Make smart arguments.


Give us a few examples, if that's not too much to ask.
   1443. McCoy Posted: May 14, 2018 at 08:30 AM (#5671705)
Sadly reading comprehension seems poor in some this Sunday. Oh well.

That it does, that it does. I mean I guess the word "appear" could be a substitute for 100% certainty but then again the person assuming that tends to throw out extreme conclusions based on flimsy evidence so we might just need to default to the original assumption. Which was that reading comprehension was poor on Sunday. One can hope that it improves this Monday. One can hope.
   1444. dlf Posted: May 14, 2018 at 09:32 AM (#5671711)
The DJT foreign policy in two morning tidbits:

-- The minister leading the invocation for the opening of the US Embassy in Jerusalem, Robert Jeffress, has said that Jews are going to Hell. Only the best people.
-- DJT wants the Commerce Department to reverse itself to remove restrictions against ZTE, the Chinese cell phone maker that lied to U.S. officials and shipped products to North Korea and Iran. Consistency is the hobgoblin ...
   1445. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 14, 2018 at 09:59 AM (#5671725)
The minister leading the invocation for the opening of the US Embassy in Jerusalem, Robert Jeffress, has said that Jews are going to Hell. Only the best people.
Never understood Jews who got upset about this. It’s standard Christian theology: everyone’s going to hell w/o JC. (I know there are some Christian sects that express uncertainty about Jews, but the sentiment is well within the mainstream.)
   1446. dlf Posted: May 14, 2018 at 10:12 AM (#5671729)
Never understood Jews who got upset about this.


I don't have a problem with the theology -- people can hold whatever beliefs about the afterlife that they wish without it bothering me. Instead, it is the selection of someone believing this to open the Embassy in Israel. I really enjoy bacon but wouldn't serve it to my rabbi.
   1447. dlf Posted: May 14, 2018 at 10:17 AM (#5671736)
   1448. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: May 14, 2018 at 10:27 AM (#5671744)
It’s standard Christian theology: everyone’s going to hell w/o JC.
Emanuel Swedenborg, who visited heaven several times during his career, said that everyone ends up there. The only real punishment is that the atheists in heaven feel stupid about having gotten it so wrong.
   1449. perros Posted: May 14, 2018 at 10:34 AM (#5671750)
If people would read the book of Revelations, they'd really straighten up.
   1450. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 14, 2018 at 10:40 AM (#5671751)
I don't have a problem with the theology -- people can hold whatever beliefs about the afterlife that they wish without it bothering me. Instead, it is the selection of someone believing this to open the Embassy in Israel. I really enjoy bacon but wouldn't serve it to my rabbi.
Well, I'm not sure why we'd have a minister of any sort leading an invocation for the opening of a U.S. Embassy. But if we are, that's (as I noted) a bog standard belief. Are they really supposed to quiz the guy on theology before hiring him for the job?

It's not like he said it at the invocation, right? (That's actually not a rhetorical question. He didn't, did he?)
   1451. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: May 14, 2018 at 10:42 AM (#5671755)
Hey! There's a new thread up!

Shoo!
   1452. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: May 14, 2018 at 10:51 AM (#5671761)
Well, I'm not sure why we'd have a minister of any sort leading an invocation for the opening of a U.S. Embassy.


Because this move is a clear and obvious sop to the Christianist radicals on the American right.
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