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Monday, November 12, 2018

OTP 2018 Nov 12 - Why Voting Is Like Baseball (Hint: Both Matter)

Yes, political elections are never decided by one vote. But aspiring politicians look at the results of voting returns. If somebody is elected by a gazillion votes, politicians pay attention to this. Same thing if somebody loses but does better than expected.

Just as baseball teams copy what other teams have done successfully, politicians copy what other politicians have done.

Aaron Gleeman once said the difference between a 75-win team and an 80-win team is huge for free agents, and he was right, because free agents want A) money and B) the chance to win. They’re competitive athletes, they want to win, and politicians are no different.

 

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 12, 2018 at 07:54 AM | 499 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off topic, politics

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   201. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 13, 2018 at 05:40 PM (#5786875)
Last time I posted a redacted letter about Shipman's behavior, Shipman and Andy tried to figure out and announce who it was. If Gormless & Bigoted want to reveal redacted information again, let them do the legwork.

This is a lie, and I'm tired of you lying about me. I've posted a link to the thread. You can review it yourself.

Dan's shown repeatedly that he's got no interest in the truth, and that above comment you copied is just the latest example.

Seriously, just ignore this guy, and eventually he'll go away, or at least back to his baseball projections.
   202. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 05:41 PM (#5786876)
*You* tell *me* what's so funny and amusing about a poster who literally tells people that he disagrees with that he hopes their children predecease them so that they can mourn their loss?


People unfriend Trump supporters. Now, obviously that's their right but it seems a bit incongruous to unfriend Trump supporters but to not unfriend people who hope those who disagree with them get cancer and have to suffer through rounds of chemo while watching their children die before dying themselves.
   203. Zonk Can't Hide his Disdain or Disgust Posted: November 13, 2018 at 05:44 PM (#5786879)
People unfriend Trump supporters. Now, obviously that's their right but it seems a bit incongruous to unfriend Trump supporters but to not unfriend people who hope those who disagree with them get cancer and have to suffer through rounds of chemo while watching their children die before dying themselves.


Others can speak for themselves, but I've just been fairly happy with Sam's court nominees.

Priorities.
   204. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 05:46 PM (#5786881)
Michelle needs to understand that Melania has no questions for her because Melania is a #######. Someone new to a job that is a ####### is unlikely to have any questions about the job. Because they have no understanding.

Given the background of Melania I would not expect her to be equipped for her role.


This is the fiction of First Ladies. (Or First Husband when that comes to pass. Or First Spouse or whatever.) There is no "job." It's a ceremonial ribbon cutting role. The country elects a president. It doesn't elect a First Spouse. And the First Spouse doesn't do anything important.

So obviously Melania or anyone smarter than YR and Bivens can do it.
   205. The Yankee Clapper Posted: November 13, 2018 at 05:49 PM (#5786883)
White House: Twenty-Six Nominations Sent To The Senate. That includes 3 9th Circuit, 2 2nd Circuit & a bunch of District Court nominees, who were announced earlier but not formally transmitted to the Senate since it was only holding pro forma sessions. The 9th Circuit nominations were made after long drawn out negotiations with the California Senators failed to produce an agreement, but I haven't seen any Senatorial criticism of the 2nd Circuit selections, so there may be a deal there.
   206. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: November 13, 2018 at 05:49 PM (#5786884)
This is the fiction of First Ladies. (Or First Husband when that comes to pass. Or First Spouse or whatever.) There is no "job." It's a ceremonial ribbon cutting role. The country elects a president. It doesn't elect a First Spouse. And the First Spouse doesn't do anything important.


Just as long as she doesn't try to deny my future fat kid his greasy school lunches like that witch Moochele I'm cool with whatever FLOTUS does, you feel me?
   207. Zonk Can't Hide his Disdain or Disgust Posted: November 13, 2018 at 05:49 PM (#5786885)
This is the fiction of First Ladies. (Or First Husband when that comes to pass. Or First Spouse or whatever.) There is no "job." It's a ceremonial ribbon cutting role. The country elects a president. It doesn't elect a First Spouse. And the First Spouse doesn't do anything important.


The problem here would be that they both seem to be nothing more than... the same thing... in this case.

So, if it bothers Trumpkins that Melania gets judged for her ridiculousness? Blame her husband who only seems to care about the same thing.

You can't have it both ways.
   208. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: November 13, 2018 at 05:55 PM (#5786888)
Dan's shown repeatedly that he's got no interest in the truth, and that above comment you copied is just the latest example.

I learned my lesson about how shameless you two were, which is why the actual letter I posted back then will not be posted again. At that point, I thought you two had a shred of human decency.

(In fairness, Andy might just not be smart enough to know what the truth is)
   209. tshipman Posted: November 13, 2018 at 05:59 PM (#5786889)
I learned my lesson about how shameless you two were, which is why the actual letter I posted back then will not be posted again. At that point, I thought you two had a shred of human decency.


Speaking of shamelessness, show even one example of me talking negatively about Mormons on this site or shut the #### up.
   210. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:01 PM (#5786890)
It turned out that there was no argument I could make that would have been acceptable to Andy and his cohorts other than I'd done it before. (And probably not even that argument would have sufficed - when you're dealing with intellectually dishonest people you get... intellectual dishonesty.) But guess what? Andy's Heroes haven't done it before either. Yet they were the only ones he would agree could do it.

So you can take your "Ray won't have a discussion" and stick it where the sun don't shine. You're only concluding that because of selective memory bias.
You complain about snark, yet you "start" discussions with crap like "Matt Yglesias, hero of some here" and "perhaps the staunch critics of Trump can post something positive about him to prove to me they're not insane".

The tennis/gym stuff became a thing because that was *all* you offered when issues like dysentery and bandits and sleeping conditions and whatever else was brought into the conversation. No one questioned your physical fitness/ability to actually walk 1000 miles, they questioned whether you'd thought through the rest of it. And you came back with a shrug, at most, suggesting your tennis acumen would protect you, or something.

Getting all haughty about intellectual dishonesty is fine, so long as you address situations where you stand accused of practicing it. Have a sense of humor about whacking bandits with tennis rackets (because, face it, that's a funny visual), ignore the snark that should be ignored, and maybe state your qualifications with respect to, say, dysentery and dehydration.

Last year I spent four days in Vegas and (separately) five days at Disney, walking between 15-20 miles a day, without breaking a sweat - but that's in the USA, with benches and water and shade when I chose. I've also spent a week in Egypt (20 years ago) wandering around Giza and Luxor. I caught some kind of stomach bug that gave new meaning to "fire in the hole" and rendered me incapable of upright movement for the better part of 36 hours. I'm guessing the conditions in the caravan are more like the latter than the former. Acuity at topspin ain't gonna help.
   211. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:01 PM (#5786891)
I mean, there is no real First Lady role. If Melania stays married to Trump (which I assume she will because of the likely terms of the pre-nup), she is equipped for the role.


I doubt the prenup says "If Trump humiliates Hillary Clinton and her fans including Bitter Mouse and Andy by winning the 2016 presidential election as Scott Adams will predict, Melania must stay married to Trump."
   212. Zonk Can't Hide his Disdain or Disgust Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:04 PM (#5786893)
I learned my lesson about how shameless you two were, which is why the actual letter I posted back then will not be posted again. At that point, I thought you two had a shred of human decency.


Yes.

The letter that keeps coming up every time you deign to visit the OTP... for reasons that are a complete and utter mystery.

Clearly, your principled concern is evident for everyone to see.

   213. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:07 PM (#5786895)
I prefer psychopath. I’m retro.
   214. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:07 PM (#5786896)
The tennis/gym stuff became a thing because that was *all* you offered when issues like dysentery and bandits and sleeping conditions and whatever else was brought into the conversation.


You only think that was all I offered, because you ignored my argument, or (I don't mean this in a derogatory way) you didn't understand it. I argued that if a few thousand random young-ish people in a corner of the world with no training could do it, then so could I.

With that argument I don't need to get into issues of dysentery.

When I was 16 how did I know that I could drive even if I hadn't done it? Because I saw a bunch of people driving around in cars. "But what if a drunk driver crosses into your lane and kills you, huh, huh!??!" is not an argument that I can't drive. (This is similar to your argument that someone would try to rob me on the hike. I mean, yes, someone might try that, and I might be injured or killed and not complete the hike. It's neither here nor there to the point that I am able to complete the hike.)
   215. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:07 PM (#5786897)
The tennis/gym stuff became a thing because that was *all* you offered when issues like dysentery and bandits and sleeping conditions and whatever else was brought into the conversation. No one questioned your physical fitness/ability to actually walk 1000 miles, they questioned whether you'd thought through the rest of it. And you came back with a shrug, at most, suggesting your tennis acumen would protect you, or something.


That and continually misstating that the people who had just barely started the journey had done it, and if they could do it so could I.
   216. Zonk Can't Hide his Disdain or Disgust Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:12 PM (#5786900)
You only think that was all I offered, because you ignored my argument, or (I don't mean this in a derogatory way) you didn't understand it. I argued that if a few thousand random young-ish people in a corner of the world with no training could do it, then so could I.


The problem was that your argument completely ignored why someone would do it. I could go back and quote - but I presume "on a lark" would a fair summary of the why.
   217. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:14 PM (#5786901)
The letter in question was transcribed. It doesn’t say what Dan says it says. He is literally delusional about this.
   218. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:18 PM (#5786904)
You only think that was all I offered, because you ignored my argument, or (I don't mean this in a derogatory way) you didn't understand it. I argued that if a few thousand random young-ish people in a corner of the world with no training could do it, then so could I.
That was the *first* part of your argument.

Which leaves out that the first caravan had about a 90% failure rate, and those consisted of what you claim to be "random" people who, at the very least, had the advantage of being acclimatized to the weather and local food.

The latest believable info I can find suggests they're getting some rides, but there's still a long way to go. Are you still completely confident you'd be in the 10% or so of those that make it? What makes you so sure you're immune to stuff like this?
Earlier, a Honduran man in the caravan died when he fell from a platform truck in the Mexican state of Chiapas.
You can handwave and say "eh, dysentery", but it's an actual thing. And it's only one of many things.
   219. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:19 PM (#5786905)
The problem was that your argument completely ignored why someone would do it. I could go back and quote - but I presume "on a lark" would a fair summary of the why.


That would indeed be a fair summary.
   220. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:21 PM (#5786907)
The latest believable info I can find suggests they're getting some rides, but there's still a long way to go. Are you still completely confident you'd be in the 10% or so of those that make it?


My argument - you still don't seem to understand it - is not that I'd be certain to "make it," any more than I'd be certain to take a drive in my car without getting into an accident and dying.

My argument is that I'm perfectly capable of making it.

What makes you so sure you're immune to stuff like this?


You don't understand my argument.
   221. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:21 PM (#5786908)
The tennis/gym stuff became a thing because that was *all* you offered when issues like dysentery and bandits and sleeping conditions and whatever else was brought into the conversation.

You only think that was all I offered, because you ignored my argument, or (I don't mean this in a derogatory way) you didn't understand it. I argued that if a few thousand random young-ish people in a corner of the world with no training could do it, then so could I.

Besides the fact that you were conflating starting the march with finishing it, you kept bringing up irrelevant sidebars like media coverage and bus rides,** while ignoring the realities of extreme weather and diseases that you may or may not be immunized against. The fact that you're relatively fit for a 35ish year old is nice, but in the realities of the Mexican desert with ever-changing border targets,*** being fit to play a vigorous game of tennis would take you only so far.

We all respect your fitness. But we take your idea that you could finish such a brutal journey with a large mountain of salt.

** Which are more likely to be trucks with migrants packed together like sardines, with women and children given preference, while more physically fit men like yourself are left to keep walking. You've simply never addressed basic realities like this.

*** It's now up to 1700 miles, not 1000.
   222. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:23 PM (#5786909)
You can't have the President arbitrarily ban reporters and only allow access to ones he likes.
As a legal matter, it's not clear to me that this is true. Bob Ehrlich, when he was governor of Maryland, had a running dispute with a couple of reporters from the Baltimore Sun over what he believed was unfair coverage. Eventually he, in essence, declared those two Sun reporters persona non grata, ordering all state employees in the executive branch not to speak to those guys. The Sun and the two reporters sued on first amendment grounds, but lost. The Fourth Circuit rejected the notion that the reporters' rights were violated. (The facts weren't identical; in the Maryland case, apparently the Sun reporters were allowed at press conferences (public press conferences, but not smaller press briefings), but members of the administration were all forbidden from speaking with them, whereas in this case, Acosta is not allowed at press conferences, but nobody has been ordered not to speak with him. But the legal issue is similar, and I think Acosta will have a tough row to hoe.)


EDIT: To be clear, I am addressing the legal issue here. I certainly agree that Trump's action is unacceptable.
   223. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:24 PM (#5786910)
The problem was that your argument completely ignored why someone would do it. I could go back and quote - but I presume "on a lark" would a fair summary of the why.

That would indeed be a fair summary.
Right. I would bet $10,000 on you being able to walk from the Guatemalan border to the US border, provided you have your credit card available. And no particular timeline. And no roving gangs being made aware of your whereabouts and probable route.

The conditions in the caravan are not those.

------------

I see, per 220, that you're simply talking about a different intellectual exercise. Which is fine. That's been stipulated twelve ways from Sunday. It would be polite for you to, once, recognize that others have been talking about something else, rather than being petulant and haughty about it.
   224. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:27 PM (#5786914)
My argument - you still don't seem to understand it - is not that I'd be certain to "make it," any more than I'd be certain to take a drive in my car without getting into an accident and dying.

My argument is that I'm perfectly capable of making it.


Well, sure, if walking 1000 or 1700 miles of the Mexican countryside were like walking 1000 or 1700 miles in a long lasting Indian Summer in Central Park, with plenty of Porta-Johns and food and water vendors along the way, and if you could sleep in a comfortable bed every night, I'd have to reconsider my skepticism.
   225. McCoy Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:27 PM (#5786915)
Dos Equis for everyone apparently.
   226. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:31 PM (#5786919)
As a legal matter, it's not clear to me that this is true.


Floyd Abrams disagrees

First Amendment expert Floyd Abrams said Sunday that CNN “should sue” the White House for revoking the press credentials of correspondent Jim Acosta.

It would be a “really strong lawsuit,” the attorney told Brian Stelter on CNN’s “Reliable Sources.” Abrams referred to a case in which the White House revoked credentials in the 1970s. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit ruled then that the White House must provide notice in such a case, as well as an opportunity for a journalist to respond and a written opinion from the White House explaining its reasoning that a court can examine.

“We’ve had none of those things here,” Abrams explained.
   227. Zonk Can't Hide his Disdain or Disgust Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:32 PM (#5786920)
The problem was that your argument completely ignored why someone would do it. I could go back and quote - but I presume "on a lark" would a fair summary of the why.

That would indeed be a fair summary.


Which is why I saw - and still see - no need to devote any more effort beyond snark towards discussion of it.

It's the inverted pyramid of Trumpism... the occasional kernel of a valid point ("it's tragic that your husband was killed and you're being raped or fear being so, but I do not believe this should constitute a valid asylum claim" is actually one I would accept) gets swamped by the ridiculousness.

So why play along?

I'd rather deride, snark, and tease.

I suspect that so long as Trump isn't a removed and left to rot as an ignominious disgrace on the country in the trash heap of history - this is a practice I'm sure will be quite useful, valuable, and proper.
   228. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:34 PM (#5786921)
I'd like to see Dan strapped to a lie detector that activated an electric shock


I don't know that he's to the point where electroshock is warranted, but certainly he appears to be well on the way.

ETA: I suppose the more current reference is ECT.
   229. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:40 PM (#5786926)
DJS is clearly wrong here. Back in that 2015 thread, he accused people of making anti-Mormon comments that drove away a poster. Then when tshipman and Andy tried to figure out which poster he was talking about, he accused tshipman and Andy of trying to "doxx" a poster who was trying to remain anonymous.

But DJS didn't originally say that the poster wanted to remain anonymous (when in fact, it was that desire, and not anti-Mormon comments, that was the poster's only stated reason for leaving the site). So accusing them of "doxxing" is doubly wrong -- in fact, it was DJS' misleading accusations that resulted in the supposed "doxxing". If DJS had been accurate about why the guy had left the site, I assume that tshipman and Andy wouldn't have speculated about who it was.

This is not meant to excuse the unnecessary vitriol spewed by Sam and some others on this site. But DJS isn't above the fray here by any means, and owes tshipman and Andy an apology IMHO.

------------------------------

A question which I don't think Andy (who I think posed the original "challenge") ever answered: Why does it matter whether Ray or anyone else here could complete the caravan walk? What is the point of that discussion? I mean, I find it kind of interesting as a person who has done a lot of hiking and endurance sports, but I don't think it's relevant to any of the political discussions we were having.

   230. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:42 PM (#5786927)
whereas in this case, Acosta is not allowed at press conferences, but nobody has been ordered not to speak with him.
My understanding was that Acosta is denied access to the White House grounds. Meaning, he could cover Trump at Arlington, or in Paris, but can't go through the gates of the White House.

I'm willing to be corrected. If true, does that change your analysis of the merits of the case?
   231. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:42 PM (#5786928)

I'd like to see Dan strapped to a lie detector that activated an electric shock to him every time he told a lie about those "disgusting human beings who infect a site I used to care about".

You'd probably have been more employable in the last 25 years if blowing Isidor Stone wasn't essentially your résumé.


Seriously Andy, Dan has blown lots of people and look at how successful he is!

   232. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:42 PM (#5786929)
Why does it matter whether Ray or anyone else here could complete the caravan walk? What is the point of that discussion?


Pointing out Ray's self-absorbed idiocy is a major form of sport for many of those who don't have the good sense to have the moron on ignore.
   233. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:43 PM (#5786930)
It's three years later. Dan is still a liar, and he still owes everyone an apology.

Dan's really covered himself in glory in the last 24 hours, hasn't he?


Go back a few more days and he probably covered himself in warm fudge too.
   234. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:44 PM (#5786931)
A question which I don't think Andy (who I think posed the original "challenge") ever answered: Why does it matter whether Ray or anyone else here could complete the caravan walk? What is the point of that discussion? I mean, I find it kind of interesting as a person who has done a lot of hiking and endurance sports, but I don't think it's relevant to any of the political discussions we were having.


Andy made a comment that in his opinion, no one who posts here would complete the journey that the caravaners had just started.* Ray, in his typical Rayness, haughtily jumped in and said "I could. I go to the gym and play tennis twice a week." and we were off to the races.

*Which I agree was hyperbole at best.
   235. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:44 PM (#5786932)
Well, sure, if walking 1000 or 1700 miles of the Mexican countryside were like walking 1000 or 1700 miles in a long lasting Indian Summer in Central Park, with plenty of Porta-Johns and food and water vendors along the way, and if you could sleep in a comfortable bed every night, I'd have to reconsider my skepticism.


And yet, many people are doing it.

If TGF were here he'd be talking about magic dirt.
   236. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:45 PM (#5786934)
Just to clarify, YR hasn't necessarily been anti-Mormon, his bigotry is anti-Catholic, his behavior as such which mostly drove Snapper away.


And aren’t we all the poorer for not having anyone to remind us that the Papacy is the greatest force for good in the history of humanity and that many children may have seduced priests?
   237. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:49 PM (#5786936)
Why does it matter whether Ray or anyone else here could complete the caravan walk? What is the point of that discussion? I mean, I find it kind of interesting as a person who has done a lot of hiking and endurance sports, but I don't think it's relevant to any of the political discussions we were having.
The political relevance is in the motivation. What possesses people to leave whatever home they've known and face 2000 miles on foot with no belongings, no money, and no guarantee of whatever success is, if they *do* make it? It must suck to be them, and how to deal with their plight is a worthy discussion to have.

Making a false equivalency ("I am physically capable of walking 1000 miles, what's the big deal? It's a lark") belittles their condition and lacks empathy, calling into question whether a person's comments on the greater issues at hand should be taken seriously or not.
   238. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:52 PM (#5786937)

But DJS didn't originally say that the poster wanted to remain anonymous (when in fact, it was that desire, and not anti-Mormon comments, that was the poster's only stated reason for leaving the site)


Umm, exact quote from the letter.


"In that thread, there was overwhelming hostility and hatred toward Mormons. One poster early in the said he was going to desecrate Mormon graves. No other poster indicated any disagreement with the sentiment, and many used hostile and demeaning terms toward Mormons generally."

[...]

"Because of the hostility now rising against Mormons and my concern that my employment and clinical relationships would be harmed if it discovered that I am Mormon, I would like to ask you if you can have my name erased from the BTF archive."


I redacted what I could and left out every section that had information that could lead to the poster. This was in response to Shipman calling me a liar that a prominent BTF individual left because he was uncomfortable with the hostility towards his religion on BTF and being connected with BTF. I assumed -- obviously wrongly -- that Shipman would accept that, whether right or wrong, someone who was a Mormon felt that way about how the Mormon religion was treated on the site. His response was to double-down and try and figure out who it was, because this individual did not participate in political threads, as a general rule.

Shipman can talk big, but I *knew* what was in the threads we had to remove because of this disgusting behavior as does Jim (who made the decision to remove them based on the content that was in them at the time, including from Shipman). I single out Shipman primarily because he's the one so brazen as to outright dismiss and completely ignore the feelings of one who was personally hurt by anti-Mormon bigotry on this website.
   239. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:54 PM (#5786938)
Andy made a comment that in his opinion, no one who posts here would complete the journey that the caravaners had just started.* Ray, in his typical Rayness, haughtily jumped in and said "I could. I go to the gym and play tennis twice a week." and we were off to the races.

Right, it was all complete irrelevancy by two of the more self-absorbed posters on the site. (FWIW, I've interacted with both Ray and Andy off-BBTF and they were both perfectly decent people, so I hope they don't take that too personally.)
   240. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:54 PM (#5786939)
But failing that, the best way to deal with Dan is simple: Ignore him and eventually he'll go away, just like SBB.


SBB wasn't ignored by this community. The opposite, actually. I have to wonder what reality you're imagining.
   241. tshipman Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:56 PM (#5786940)
I redacted what I could and left out every section that had information that could lead to the poster. This was in response to Shipman calling me a liar that a prominent BTF individual left because he was uncomfortable with the hostility towards his religion on BTF and being connected with BTF. I assumed -- obviously wrongly -- that Shipman would accept that, whether right or wrong, someone who was a Mormon felt that way about how the Mormon religion was treated on the site. His response was to double-down and try and figure out who it was, because this individual did not participate in political threads, as a general rule.

Shipman can talk big, but I *knew* what was in the threads we had to remove because of this disgusting behavior as does Jim.


Right, but you were a liar then and you're a liar now.

In 2015, you said that it was people in the politics thread who made those comments. It was not.

In 2018, you said that I made bigoted anti-Mormon comments. I have not.

Both of these are flat lies.

(I think it's also pretty clear from context that Mormon posters were not "hounded off the site", but clearly one guy felt like he was acting in an abundance of caution. That's his right. Also amusing to note: Post 208 vs. 238. In the span of 30 posts, Dan went from never posting the letter again, to posting it. Man of principle.)
   242. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:56 PM (#5786941)
Making a false equivalency ("I am physically capable of walking 1000 miles, what's the big deal? It's a lark") belittles their condition and lacks empathy, calling into question whether a person's comments on the greater issues at hand should be taken seriously or not.

Do you guys have the original quote? I thought someone had said "Someone from BTF could do that" or something to that effect.

And yes, McCoy, like the article that I half-remembered that I was able to find when I had internet back that wasn't on my phone, the one for which you called me a liar, I'm not making up that I remember something to this effect. Again, I acknowledge my memory is not perfect.
   243. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:58 PM (#5786942)
The office of the Press Secretary has been a joke since


forever.
   244. McCoy Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:59 PM (#5786943)
Geezus Christ. I get what everyone else is talking about now. I WAS JOKING! I copied and pasted a post by Ray. I took my name out and put your name in. I didn’t call you a liar. I get that you might have missed that at the beginning but now after several days? It has to be intentional or obtuseness.
   245. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:00 PM (#5786944)

#238 thanks. That part of the letter doesn't appear to have been posted when you first cited it back in 2015. It doesn't appear to be the stated reason why the poster left, but I acknowledge that it may have contributed to his leaving (given there may be other, still unpublished parts of the email).

I still think the accusations of "doxxing" was inaccurate, as people had no reason to believe the poster in question was seeking anonymity.
   246. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:00 PM (#5786945)
Geezus Christ. I get what everyone else is talking about now. I WAS JOKING! I copied and pasted a post by Ray. I took my name out and put your name in. I didn’t call you a liar.

Wait, really?
   247. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:01 PM (#5786946)
I argued that if a few thousand random young-ish people in a corner of the world with no training could do it, then so could I.


How many of them are pampered, coddled fancy lads? You’d be lonely.
   248. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:05 PM (#5786948)
Yes. McCoy posted something like, "I'm not sure, didn't Lewandowki plead guilty?" Then Ray said something like, "Why does McCoy keep doing that, posting false statements as questions?"

Then you posted a question like "I'm not sure, didn't Romney win 18-20 year-olds in 2012?" McCoy then wrote a parody of Ray's post using your name (It was obvious to me what he was doing but if you didn't pay attention to Ray's earlier post it may not have been obvious to you).

And then you told him to impale himself on a spike or something like that.
   249. McCoy Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:05 PM (#5786949)
Yes, really.
   250. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:05 PM (#5786950)
I still think the accusations of "doxxing" was inaccurate, as people had no reason to believe the poster in question was seeking anonymity.

I've always known you to be honest, so if you feel I did not make it clear enough that the poster didn't want his name thrown around, then I cannot reject that this is a possibility. But there's still well more than enough casual Mormon-hatred, expressed gleefully and profusely, for me to be furious about it.
   251. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:05 PM (#5786951)
"In that thread, there was overwhelming hostility and hatred toward Mormons. One poster early in the said he was going to desecrate Mormon graves. No other poster indicated any disagreement with the sentiment, and many used hostile and demeaning terms toward Mormons generally."


This is the weird cult that baptizes Jews after they die so they can become Mormons in the afterlife. Wah.
   252. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:06 PM (#5786952)
Andy made a comment that in his opinion, no one who posts here would complete the journey that the caravaners had just started.* Ray, in his typical Rayness, haughtily jumped in and said "I could. I go to the gym and play tennis twice a week." and we were off to the races.

*Which I agree was hyperbole at best.


It wasn't hyperbole at all, because Andy believes it.

That you think it was hyperbole just shows how ridiculous Andy's argument is.
   253. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:07 PM (#5786953)
But there's still well more than enough casual Mormon-hatred, expressed gleefully and profusely, for me to be furious about it.


Furious you say? Somebody got a wedgie in their magic underwear.
   254. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:08 PM (#5786954)
Yes, really.

In that case, I can only offer my sincere apology. I did not see the initial Ray post and I took the post at face value. I jumped too quickly to a conclusion.

If there's anything I can do for you personally to atone, whether you keep an Amazon wishlist or have a preferred charity, or something else, please let me know.

   255. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:08 PM (#5786955)

As a legal matter, it's not clear to me that this is true.

Floyd Abrams disagrees
Well, he can't disagree about whether it's clear to me; I can assure you that it isn't. He may argue that it's clear to him.

There is a case from the 1970s called Sherrill v. Knight; It does not hold that any particular reporter must be given access, though. It's purely a procedural due process case. (In that case, while the D.C. Circuit did rule that he had some procedural rights, it overturned the District Court's ruling that the WH had to publish a list of criteria in advance.) On substantive grounds, there's more recent caselaw, including but not limited to Sun v. Ehrlich, that seems to hold that reporters may not be entitled to any access. To the extent that the caselaw distinguishes, it may turn on the grounds I mentioned in my original post: the difference between press conferences and more general press access.
   256. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:09 PM (#5786956)
Do you guys have the original quote? I thought someone had said "Someone from BTF could do that" or something to that effect.
Dan, there was a whole bunch of back-and-forth; as has been noted, one extreme was "no one who posts here could do it", which was quickly mocked. Everyone pivoted to a discussion of the conditions except Ray, who kept up with the "I *could* do it," while ignoring that the definition of "it" had shifted several times. There's:

1) Physically walking 40 miles a day for however long it takes.
2) Doing that, but outside a gym.
3) Doing that without hotels at night, or shade, or water.
4) Doing that in the face of disease and dehydrations and blisters and sunburn and, and, and.
5) Doing that with the threat of armed gangs threatening to kidnap or kill you or take whatever stuff you have.

Ray alone "debated" the conditions of #1, while everyone else was talking about, well, everything else.
   257. McCoy Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:10 PM (#5786957)
No worries. I get it.
   258. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:12 PM (#5786958)

A question which I don't think Andy (who I think posed the original "challenge") ever answered: Why does it matter whether Ray or anyone else here could complete the caravan walk?
Andy loves posing hypothetical questions and then denying that the answers are true, even when the questions are about something personal to the people responding.
   259. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:12 PM (#5786959)
Dan, there was a whole bunch of back-and-forth; as has been noted, one extreme was "no one who posts here could do it", which was quickly mocked. Everyone pivoted to a discussion of the conditions except Ray, who kept up with the "I *could* do it," while ignoring that the definition of "it" had shifted several times. There's:

1) Physically walking 40 miles a day for however long it takes.
2) Doing that, but outside a gym.
3) Doing that without hotels at night, or shade, or water.
4) Doing that in the face of disease and dehydrations and blisters and sunburn and, and, and.
5) Doing that with the threat of armed gangs threatening to kidnap or kill you or take whatever stuff you have.

Ray alone "debated" the conditions of #1, while everyone else was talking about, well, everything else.


This is way too confusing to keep up with.

I'm glad I stayed out of this one. I'd need a good year to get back into shape to even tackle some of this; a work environment in which I always have access to beer (and occasionally hot dogs) has not been great for me. I sure as #### couldn't walk 1000 miles right now and I honestly don't think I could even when I was in better shape and played sports (other than golf).
   260. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:14 PM (#5786962)
No worries. I get it

If you ever think of something, though, please let me know, as I owe you a solid. I clearly wronged you in that last thread.
   261. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:14 PM (#5786963)
I've always known you to be honest, so if you feel I did not make it clear enough that the poster didn't want his name thrown around, then I cannot reject that this is a possibility.

I think you made it clear after the fact, but not before. I agree with you on the overall point about people making casually bigoted comments here although I don't think it's limited to Mormonism (which I don't think has been much of a topic here in a long time).
   262. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:19 PM (#5786965)
In that case, I can only offer my sincere apology. I did not see the initial Ray post and I took the post at face value. I jumped too quickly to a conclusion


So your virtriol was really intended for our Little Lord Fauntleray, the human veal? Oh my, he won’t take kindly to your tone.
   263. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:19 PM (#5786966)
Some speculation from the Hoarse Whisperer:

The Hoarse Whisperer


@HoarseWisperer
8m8 minutes ago
More
All of these mysterious Twitter blackouts on the right...

The smart crooks are about to abandon Trump.

The dumb crooks are worried they’re already caught.

So, Fox News will pivot. The Enquirer will get lit up by Mueller.

22 replies 68 retweets 391 likes
Reply 22 Retweet 68 Like 391 Direct message
   264. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:19 PM (#5786967)
This was Andy's original comment:

I'll bet if you set every able-bodied and well-nourished Primate on a 1,000 mile hike through Mexico, not a single damn one of them would make it to the finish line.


Emphasis in the original.

It was not hyperbole, as he still has yet to agree that anyone on BBTF could. Yet he has no trouble thinking many of the people currently walking can.


   265. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:20 PM (#5786968)
#Qanon says the walls are closing in on Hillary’s child sex ring.
   266. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:20 PM (#5786969)
I think you made it clear after the fact, but not before. I agree with you on the overall point about people making casually bigoted comments here although I don't think it's limited to Mormonism (which I don't think has been much of a topic here in a long time).

At this point, most of those remaining have 18 years of grievances (I certainly won't say I've been all that classy, as I'm consciously not trying to be).
   267. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:22 PM (#5786970)

Emphasis in the original.


Yeah, that's the quote I was remembering. That the original challenge was that nobody at all could.

McClinch was in terrific shape, if I call correctly, but don't think he's been around. Kevin always talked about leg presses, so maybe he could do it (though he may be too old).
   268. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:23 PM (#5786971)
I sure as #### couldn't walk 1000 miles right now and I honestly don't think I could even when I was in better shape and played sports
Right, that's probably where most of us are. No doubt a percentage of Primates are perfectly capable of doing the walk. In a vacuum.

But they're not in a vacuum, they're motivated by fear, and that's keeping them going through not just the walking, but the crappy conditions and all the rest. Ray doesn't factor any of that; that real people will die, and 90% of them will drop out, and that the "it" that was originally meant in "no one could do it" meant actually living their world and needing to make such a journey. To Ray "it" is just a lark, an intellectual walk in the park. That's not meant as a criticism, just an observation.
   269. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:29 PM (#5786974)
Also, let's not forget that before I was mocked for saying I could, others said they could do it (or could have when they were younger) -- including YR before he saw the trolling opportunity to mock me instead:

1390. Traderdave Posted: October 25, 2018 at 04:48 PM (#5775338)

I'll bet if you set every able-bodied and well-nourished Primate on a 1,000 mile hike through Mexico, not a single damn one of them would make it to the finish line. Anyone here think they'd be an exception?


Into my mid 30's I think I could have. Now? No way in hell.


1411. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: October 25, 2018 at 05:14 PM (#5775364)

I'll bet if you set every able-bodied and well-nourished Primate on a 1,000 mile hike through Mexico, not a single damn one of them would make it to the finish line. Anyone here think they'd be an exception?

IDK, I ran a marathon 2 weeks ago. If you dropped me in the middle of the Copper Canyon by myself with no food or water I'm pretty sure I wouldn't make it out alive. If I was walking along major roads as part of a 7,000-person caravan and could buy/receive supplies along the way, I'm pretty confident I'd make it.


1419. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 25, 2018 at 05:28 PM (#5775373)

I'll bet if you set every able-bodied and well-nourished Primate on a 1,000 mile hike through Mexico, not a single damn one of them would make it to the finish line. Anyone here think they'd be an exception?

As was noted earlier that would depend on the pace I'd be expected to keep. I hiked the Grand Canyon this summer without much trouble (ended up losing a toenail in the process which was pretty unexpected, but it didn't hurt). I did a 7-mile hike to 13,000 with a 4000 foot gain a few years back and that was pretty brutal mainly because at altitude you can't "catch your breath" so resting is pretty worthless as you ascend.

I'm pretty sure I could roll out of bed and do 12 miles on foot tomorrow, but I wouldn't commit to any more in a day than that.


Andy asked a hypothetical question and then refused to accept any answers that were contrary to his own.
   270. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:30 PM (#5786975)
But they're not in a vacuum, they're motivated by fear, and that's keeping them going through not just the walking, but the crappy conditions and all the rest. Ray doesn't factor any of that; that real people will die, and 90% of them will drop out, and that the "it" that was originally meant in "no one could do it" meant actually living their world and needing to make such a journey. To Ray "it" is just a lark, an intellectual walk in the park. That's not meant as a criticism, just an observation.

I don't disagree with you. I mostly care about Andy being wrong, really. On a philosophical level, I don't believe in borders (but am forced to accept them as a pragmatist because of other realities).
   271. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:34 PM (#5786977)
Ray, #200:
When you're dealing with intellectually dishonest people you get... intellectual dishonesty. .........So you can take your "Ray won't have a discussion" and stick it where the sun don't shine.


As Ray asserts his own sincerity and truthfulness (because SOMEBODY has to), it's always worth reminding him from time to time about his year of malignant bullshit and his fake moral outrage about "cockholster homophobia."

He's compounded his contemptible playacting by silently cringing about it ever since being caught cockhanded. It was so incontestable even Ray couldn't find a loophole. Somehow, though, this dedicated conversationalist hasn't had a word to offer about what he did.

Ray fluffing his nonexistent reputation for integrity while attacking a parade of other posters for their supposed failure to meet his standards is... not a good look at oneself.
   272. McCoy Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:37 PM (#5786978)
I’m intrigued by the idea of the huge chess match being played, baffled by the terminology, piqued by the fact that a computer can call a better game, and turned off by the fact that all the games seem to end up in a tie.
   273. DJS Holiday-Related Pun Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:41 PM (#5786980)
I’m intrigued by the idea of the huge chess match being played, baffled by the terminology, and turned off by the fact that all the games seem to end up in a tie.

It's really hard to have a shootout in chess.

Honestly, I think part of the problem is the time. High-end chess is *too good*. I think that time pressure makes sports/games generally better. I've felt for a long time that high-level chess should be Rapid/Quick with short clocks.
   274. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:43 PM (#5786981)
Right, that's probably where most of us are. No doubt a percentage of Primates are perfectly capable of doing the walk. In a vacuum.

But they're not in a vacuum, they're motivated by fear, and that's keeping them going through not just the walking, but the crappy conditions and all the rest. Ray doesn't factor any of that; that real people will die, and 90% of them will drop out, and that the "it" that was originally meant in "no one could do it" meant actually living their world and needing to make such a journey. To Ray "it" is just a lark, an intellectual walk in the park. That's not meant as a criticism, just an observation.


Even the above argument revises history. I posted Andy's initial challenge above. It had nothing to do with all of these other factors that people started citing later about "motivation," that you're now obsessed with. The challenge I responded to was purely about the physical conditions. Andy made that very clear in his next two posts on the topic, including post 1402 of the thread, in which he said "The motivation is certainly there, but we're still talking about a thousand ####### miles." He didn't think "motivation" was going to propel someone who couldn't handle the physical journey:

1402. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 25, 2018 at 05:01 PM (#5775352)

I've known people who have done half the Appalachian Trail (roughly 1,000 tough miles), and one was older than me and not in as good of shape. I'm in my 40s and what I would call 'decent' shape. So physically I would guess for most here it's possible, though injuries would be a factor. But..

A lot of it comes down to mentality. A lot of guys in amazing shape don't finish the ATrail (roughly 10-20% make it) because they just get worn out mentally.

Us cushy people on BTF probably don't have the mentality, and I'm not sure I do either. Maybe. Someone looking to escape to a better life? More likely.


The motivation is certainly there, but we're still talking about a thousand ####### miles.
   275. McCoy Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:52 PM (#5786983)
Someone mentioned that Mattis was a good pick. I don’t know, maybe he is maybe he isn’t but what I do know is he played along with the caravan farce and even made a statement of something to the effect that the us military doesn’t do publicity stunts.
   276. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 13, 2018 at 08:02 PM (#5786987)
Someone mentioned that Mattis was a good pick. I don’t know, maybe he is maybe he isn’t but what I do know is he played along with the caravan farce and even made a statement of something to the effect that the us military doesn’t do publicity stunts.


He followed a legal order from his commander in chief and refrained from criticizing him publicly while deftly deflecting the question.
   277. McCoy Posted: November 13, 2018 at 08:20 PM (#5786996)
Sure but he still lied and he is in fact putting American soldiers in harm’s way for a get out the vote stunt.
   278. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: November 13, 2018 at 08:22 PM (#5786998)
To lighten the mood, I've been chuckling at this all day.
   279. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 08:28 PM (#5786999)
Sure but he still lied and he is in fact putting American soldiers in harm’s way for a get out the vote stunt.


The way to non-violently and legally persuade some of the people not to throw rocks at soldiers that might get the rock throwers killed is to make it clear to them that if they throw rocks at soldiers it might get them killed.

This reduces violence.
   280. tshipman Posted: November 13, 2018 at 08:30 PM (#5787002)
Lots of discussion about the incompetence of the Broward County election supervisor. It would appear incompetence is a bipartisan affair in Florida:

In heavily Republican Bay County, however, election supervisor Mark Andersen acknowledged Monday that he had allowed some voters to cast their ballots over email, which is not allowed under state law.

Bay County was hit hard by Hurricane Michael on Oct. 10, and Scott issued an executive order on Oct. 18 extending early voting and expanding more voting locations in the eight affected counties. His order, The Associated Press reports, explicitly prohibited votes being returned by email or fax. Andersen defended his decision to let 150 people scan their ballots and email them in, telling NBC affiliate WJHG/WECP, "If you want to turn around and take away these votes away from voters because it's not the normal prescribed issue, I would just say you ought to be ashamed of yourself because what we did is take care of voters."


Only 150 votes, so it certainly didn't impact the election, but it is amusing to note.
   281. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 13, 2018 at 08:32 PM (#5787004)
he is in fact putting American soldiers in harm’s way for a get out the vote stunt.


It's a legal order. He has no choice but to obey. And what potential harm are they in? Surely not from rock throwing migrants.
   282. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 13, 2018 at 08:33 PM (#5787005)
Pro-gun election spending, 2014: $27.8 million
Pro-gun election spending, 2018: $9.4 million and outspent by gun control groups

A decade ago, many Democrats in numerous red states sought the NRA's endorsement. This year: three did.

Overt advocates of gun control flipped House seats in Texas, in Colorado, in Georgia, and in other gun-friendly areas.
   283. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 08:34 PM (#5787006)
It's a legal order. He has no choice but to obey. And what potential harm are they in? Surely not from rock throwing migrants.


If the rock throwers are too far away to reach the soldiers - sure.

Otherwise... not so much.
   284. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: November 13, 2018 at 08:40 PM (#5787007)
#### THE OSMONDS!


You know what? That Marie. Va va va VOOM, amirite?


Too bad she can't call herself Marie Osmond any more, since she's married, and Mormon men don't allow their ####### to keep their maiden names,

Oh, and Ray? Go #### yourself.
   285. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 13, 2018 at 08:42 PM (#5787008)
If the rock throwers are too far away to reach the soldiers - sure.

Otherwise... not so much.


They will be too far away. They are heading to Tijuana, which is the one place where we actually do have a border wall. I don't think rocks lobbed over the wall indirect artillery fire style are much of a threat to helmeted soldiers.
   286. zenbitz Posted: November 13, 2018 at 08:47 PM (#5787010)
I thought it was nasty, beyond the pale comments about Snapper effort to reproduce that got him to quit OTP. I kinda miss him, a little.

Even if he was intransigent. He still posts on topic though, right?
   287. tshipman Posted: November 13, 2018 at 08:47 PM (#5787011)
Pro-gun election spending, 2014: $27.8 million
Pro-gun election spending, 2018: $9.4 million and outspent by gun control groups

A decade ago, many Democrats in numerous red states sought the NRA's endorsement. This year: three did.


Gun control has never been about the money, and the left's focus on that is misplaced.

Gun bans are unpopular, and the kind of limitations that are popular are seen as being ineffective.
   288. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: November 13, 2018 at 08:53 PM (#5787012)
Even the above argument revises history. I posted Andy's initial challenge above. It had nothing to do with all of these other factors that people started citing later about "motivation," that you're now obsessed with. The challenge I responded to was purely about the physical conditions
Talk about revising history. Read #256, then read it again. We'll wait.
Also, let's not forget that before I was mocked for saying I could, others said they could do it (or could have when they were younger) -- including YR before he saw the trolling opportunity to mock me instead
You appear not to be able to understand this: You weren't mocked for saying you could do it. You were mocked because you said you could do it "with a wagon full of supplies" and cited your tennis ability, this *even after* you included a post that introduced the conditions aspect into it. See #1423. Then your #1500 on the same page:
Those are the questions you should have asked *before* you blithely asserted you'd have no problem with the 1000 mile hike.

Why? I can do the hike under whatever the conditions are.
*THAT* is what you were then mocked for.
   289. McCoy Posted: November 13, 2018 at 08:55 PM (#5787014)
Re 281. He can resign. Were they armed with Daisies? He deployed troops for action. That is putting Americans soldiers in harm’s way.
   290. zenbitz Posted: November 13, 2018 at 09:01 PM (#5787017)
Oh and re: dead black security guard.

Disarm the cops. Now. Use unarmed drones and robots.
   291. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 13, 2018 at 09:03 PM (#5787018)
Andy made a comment that in his opinion, no one who posts here would complete the journey that the caravaners had just started.* Ray, in his typical Rayness, haughtily jumped in and said "I could. I go to the gym and play tennis twice a week." and we were off to the races.

*Which I agree was hyperbole at best.


It wasn't hyperbole at all, because Andy believes it.

I believed it then and I believe it now, regardless of whether one or 10 or 100 of you are physically capable of walking 1000 miles in ideal conditions. Hell, give me a couple of months and I could probably do it myself if the money was right and I could sleep in a hotel every night, and I'm 74.

All of which has absolutely NOTHING to do with the sort of conditions faced by those migratory asylum seekers. NOTHING.

There have been scores of news stories published over the past month or so, describing the real conditions of that march in graphic terms. It involves heat prostration, torrential downpours, sleeping in the cold with skimpy blankets, diseases, harassment, malnutrition, and occasional rides in rickety trucks where people are packed together like sardines.

Oh, and route changes that now have added 700 more miles to the originally planned 1000. I just posted that story a day or three ago, and got no response to it.

There's nothing in the lives of anyone here that would have prepared them to finish such an ordeal. The only thing that enables a handful of the original marchers to make it to the border is the fear of the alternative: Predatory gangs; psychotic spouses; etc.

What would the "alternative" be for anyone here? Other Primates making fun of them when they got back home without completing the walk?

Again, this isn't to denigrate the Adonis-like shape of some of your bodies, or your physical capacity to walk 1000 miles in a month on some treadmill in San Diego. It has to do with finishing a 1000 mile walk while undergoing the identical obstacles that those migrant marchers are undergoing.

Oh, and you don't get new shoes. Sometimes it might just mean walking on a worn out pair of sandals. How far can you walk on a pair of feet with blisters?
   292. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 09:05 PM (#5787020)
Also, let's not forget that before I was mocked for saying I could, others said they could do it (or could have when they were younger) -- including YR before he saw the trolling opportunity to mock me instead:


Well let’s see. I open up with a quick caveat:

As was noted earlier that would depend on the pace I'd be expected to keep.


That’s certainly true.

I hiked the Grand Canyon this summer without much trouble (ended up losing a toenail in the process which was pretty unexpected, but it didn't hurt). I did a 7-mile hike to 13,000 with a 4000 foot gain a few years back and that was pretty brutal mainly because at altitude you can't "catch your breath" so resting is pretty worthless as you ascend.


Probably more relevant to the discussion at-hand than playing tennis. I’m a seasoned hiker, as is my wife and daughter, although we don’t hike nearly as much since moving to the east coast.

But hey, my toenail is almost completely regrown! Thanks for letting me share!

I'm pretty sure I could roll out of bed and do 12 miles on foot tomorrow, but I wouldn't commit to any more in a day than that


And that’s my estimated top pace in my current handsome but not-exactly fighting trim for one day with no preparation.

It’s funny, because unlike our Little Lord’s declarations of certitude all I see from me are caveats and noncommittal mentions of relevant experience. In fact, despite me being undoubtedly a better, more durable, and more experienced desert hiker than the Little Lord, my statements are quite reserved compared to his.
   293. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 09:08 PM (#5787021)
I thought it was nasty, beyond the pale comments about Snapper effort to reproduce that got him to quit OTP


Pretty sure it didn’t come from me. I assume you’re all a bunch of incels.
   294. McCoy Posted: November 13, 2018 at 09:11 PM (#5787022)
When we look out upon the world we see a reflection of ourselves
   295. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 09:13 PM (#5787023)
Worlds lookin’ mighty handsome!

*finger guns*
   296. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 13, 2018 at 09:14 PM (#5787024)
Okay, I've now reconsidered my position, and I realize that with the proper motivation, there's one Primate who might be able to complete that 1000 mile trip, and maybe even nonstop.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you not Marathon Man, but Marathon Dan.
   297. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 09:21 PM (#5787026)
Talk about revising history. Read #256, then read it again. We'll wait.


Thanks for pointing out #256. I don't know where 40 miles a day comes from. I was unaware there's a time limit for them to get to their destination.

But my same rationale applies: If they can do it, so can I.
   298. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 09:24 PM (#5787027)
Why? I can do the hike under whatever the conditions are.

*THAT* is what you were then mocked for.


Remains true. If they can do it, so can I.

You act like they're endurance trainers or something. Like I was trying to keep up with Lance Armstrong. But of course that's silly. There are men doing this. Women. Children. Adults carrying children. The only commonality among them is that they're not elderly.
   299. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 09:29 PM (#5787030)
Oh, and route changes that now have added 700 more miles to the originally planned 1000. I just posted that story a day or three ago, and got no response to it.

There's nothing in the lives of anyone here that would have prepared them to finish such an ordeal. The only thing that enables a handful of the original marchers to make it to the border is the fear of the alternative: Predatory gangs; psychotic spouses; etc.


Oh, so now motivation does factor in heavily. In the quote I posted above in 274 you seemed to be denying that, as you said "The motivation is certainly there, but we're still talking about a thousand ####### miles."

Regardless if nobody is making it to the border I'll agree I can't either. But your contention has not been that. Your contention has been that many of them _will_ do it -- but that nobody on BBTF could.
   300. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 13, 2018 at 09:31 PM (#5787031)
Regardless if nobody is making it to the border I'll agree I can't either. But your contention has not been that. Your contention has been that many of them _will_ do it -- but that nobody on BBTF could.


Well, a couple of hundred have made it to the border, but they took busses from Mexico City to TJ.
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