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Monday, October 15, 2018

OTP 2018 October 15: The shift in focus from sport to politics

Since I’m hinting at it, here’s my shameless plug: if you can sit through four hours of football and its stoppage time, you can’t justify calling baseball boring. October belongs to America’s pastime. I feel that this whole landscape will look different a decade from now, with football at the lower half of the totem pole.

My opinion isn’t entirely biased. This issue with politics bleeding into the discussion is a serious crutch for an otherwise praised NFL, and until that’s no longer a factor, people are going to shift away. The NBA waters are nice these days too, I’m hearing.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 15, 2018 at 08:26 AM | 1522 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off topic, politics

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Page 14 of 16 pages ‹ First  < 12 13 14 15 16 > 
   1301. PepTech Posted: October 19, 2018 at 02:17 PM (#5771268)
Flip, damn you!
   1302. Davo Posted: October 19, 2018 at 02:19 PM (#5771269)
“You think you’re having a hard time — I got $5million worth of negative ads going at me,” Dave Brat told inmates at the Chesterfield County jail on Wednesday. “How do you think I’m feeling? Nothing’s easy. For anybody. You think I’m a congressman. ‘Oh, life’s easy. This guys’s off having steaks.’ Baloney, I got a daughter, she’s got to deal with that crap on TV every day. It’s tough.”
   1303. perros Posted: October 19, 2018 at 02:20 PM (#5771271)
I.e. "where the black folk are." A simple truth of life is that white Europeans have shitty music.


Mountain music is great. Probably helps to have next to nothing else.
   1304. perros Posted: October 19, 2018 at 02:23 PM (#5771274)
Reading up on McInnes. We should deport the frostback.
   1305. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 19, 2018 at 02:24 PM (#5771277)
No. He's merely an empty vessel into which the RNC pours their daily talking points.

And quite methodically, too. They've got it down to a science:

GOP war room blasts endless stream of criticism at Democrats, with Warren its latest target


Trump at one point said he was going to slow his criticism of Warren because he didn't want to dissuade her from running.

"At the White House, President Trump and his aides initially played down the news. Adviser Kellyanne Conway told reporters “that doesn’t interest me” and Trump said “Who cares?” when asked about the new evidence that the Massachusetts Democrat had Native American heritage."


You do have to love the specter of the Party of Science holding up a DNA test that proved Warren is white to argue that she is Native American.

(BTW she hasn't actually released the DNA results, to my knowledge.)
   1306. McCoy Posted: October 19, 2018 at 02:27 PM (#5771282)
I'm sure HRC will bounce around the circuit and make news and sell books and do speeches; that's what that ilk does.


Dan Quayle was forever being brought up as a Presidential candidate long after any chance he could get anyone other than his immediate family to vote for hm.
   1307. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: October 19, 2018 at 02:28 PM (#5771283)
   1308. Davo Posted: October 19, 2018 at 02:35 PM (#5771290)
1296, thanks for posting:

I understand the desire to approach a religious ethic, or any moral position, with a kind of seriousness and humility that accepts the parts that you find difficult as well as those you find easy. I think once you get into that mindset it can be tempting to take a position because it’s hard, because it tests your resolve to defend it and to live it. And sometimes that can even be an admirable thing to do.

I totally get where you are coming from. But on this issue—the marriage/SSA/adultery issue—my fear is that I view it thusly because it is in fact so easy for me—as I’m already married to a woman. That I might be doing the exact same thing the liberalized churches are doing, obeying the parts of the Gospels that are easy but then watering down the parts that are hard. But I think it’s important to fight that impulse at all times, and to always attempt to follow the teachings of Christ.
   1309. perros Posted: October 19, 2018 at 02:36 PM (#5771293)
Tucker Carlson's an even bigger whore than O'Reilly, who's not too smart and a bona fide bully.
   1310. zenbitz Posted: October 19, 2018 at 02:37 PM (#5771295)
Marriage is between a man and a woman


You mean a Man and his female property.
   1311. perros Posted: October 19, 2018 at 02:38 PM (#5771298)
But I think it’s important to fight that impulse at all times,


Makes it sound like you are a converso. What about all your gay friends?
   1312. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 19, 2018 at 02:38 PM (#5771299)
Tucker Carlson's an even bigger whore than O'Reilly


And he's still butt hurt over that Jon Stewart interview.
   1313. Davo Posted: October 19, 2018 at 02:39 PM (#5771304)
(1296 & 1308, cont.) My lodestar on this is Tolstoy:

Of all the gospels, the Sermon on the Mount was the portion that impressed me most, and I studied it more often than any other part. Nowhere else does Christ speak with such solemnity; nowhere else does He give us so many clear and intelligible moral precepts, which commend themselves to everyone. If there are any clear and definite precepts of Christianity, they must have been expressed in this sermon; and, therefore, in those three chapters of St. Matthew’s gospel I sought the solution of my doubts.

Many and many a time I read over the sermon, and every time I felt the same emotion on reading the texts about ‘turning my cheek to the one who strikes me,’ ‘giving up my cloak to him who takes my coat,’ ‘being at peace with all men,’ and ‘loving my enemies,’ – and yet there remained in me the same feeling of dissatisfaction. The words of God were not as yet clear to me. They seemed to enjoin an impossible self-denial that annulled life itself, and therefore it seemed to me that such self-denial could not be the requirement on which man’s salvation depended.

But, then, if that were not the express condition of salvation, there was nothing fixed and clear! I not only read the Sermon on the Mount, but the rest of the gospels, and various commentaries upon them. Our theological explanations tell us that in the teachings of the Sermon on the Mount an indication is given of the perfection after which man must strive; that man, being full of sin, cannot attain this perfection by his own unaided strength, and that the salvation of a man lies in faith, prayer, and the gifts of the grace of God; but these explanations did not satisfy me.

Why should Christ have given to us such clear and good precepts, applicable to us all, if He knew beforehand that the keeping of them was impossible by man in his own unaided strength?

On reading over these precepts, it always seemed that they applied to me, and that I was morally bound to obey them. I even felt convinced that I could, immediately and from that very hour, do all that they enjoined.

I wished and tried to do so, but as soon as any difficulty arose in the way of my keeping them, I involuntarily remembered the teaching of the Church, that ‘man is weak, and can do no good thing by himself,’ and then I became weak.

I had been told that it was necessary to believe and to pray, but I felt that my faith was weak and that I could not pray. I had been told that it was necessary to pray for faith – for that faith without which prayer is of no avail. I was told that faith comes through prayer and that prayer comes through faith, which, to say the least, was certainly bewildering. Such statements commended themselves neither to reason nor experience.

After much useless study of the works that have been written in proof of the divinity or non-divinity of this doctrine, and after many doubts and much suffering, I was left alone with the mysterious Book, in which the doctrine of Christ is taught. I could not interpret it as others did, I could not abjure the Book, and yet I could not find a new and satisfying interpretation. It was only after losing all faith in the explanations of learned theology and criticism, and after laying them all aside in obedience to the words of Christ (Mark 10:15), that I began to understand what had until then seemed incomprehensible to me. It was not by deep thought, or by skillfully comparing or commenting on the texts of the gospel, that I came to understand the doctrine. On the contrary, all grew clear to me for the very reason that I had ceased to rest on mere interpretations. The text that gave me the key to the truth was the thirty-ninth verse of the fifth chapter of St. Matthew, ‘You have heard that it has been said, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. But I say to you, do not resist evil…’ The simple meaning of these words suddenly flashed full upon me; I accepted the fact that Christ meant exactly what He said; and then, though I had found nothing new, all that had hitherto obscured the truth cleared away, and the truth itself arose before me in all its solemn importance.
   1314. PepTech Posted: October 19, 2018 at 02:50 PM (#5771313)
You do have to love the specter of the Party of Science holding up a DNA test that proved Warren is white to argue that she is Native American.
Warren did something stupid, individually.

Why do you make the claim that the Democratic Party is holding anything up or arguing anything? Even if some idiot posters here defend Warren, that *still* doesn't mean you get to blast a larger subset using guilt-by-association. You claim to be an objective observer? Seriously? Plenty of folks from both sides of the aisle, here and publicly, mocked Warren.

And it bears repeating, Warren doing something stupid last week is eclipsed by Trump's buffoonery - every damn day. Let's see, in the last 24 hours.... checking news... yep, applauding and encouraging violence against journalists - while continuing to provide cover for the Saudis! On the Scale of Reprehensibility, where does that rate compared to Warren's dumb DNA kerfluffle?
   1315. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 19, 2018 at 03:01 PM (#5771328)
New York Man giving Florida Man a run for his money - New York Man Arrested For Threatening Two Senators On Kavanaugh Vote:
A New York man was arrested and charged Friday by federal prosecutors with threatening to assault and murder two US senators in retaliation for their support of Justice Brett Kavanaugh's confirmation to the Supreme Court. The man, Ronald DeRisi, left more than 10 threatening and "expletive-laced" voicemails for the two senators beginning September 27, according to the complaint unsealed Friday by prosecutors in the US Attorney's Office for the Eastern District of New York.
. . .
DeRisi, a 74-year-old resident of Smithtown, New York, is due to appear in federal court in Central Islip on Friday afternoon.

That's one way to have a government funded "retirement".


   1316. Zonk is not as Outlandish as he could be Posted: October 19, 2018 at 03:05 PM (#5771332)
New York Man giving Florida Man a run for his money - New York Man Arrested For Threatening Two Senators On Kavanaugh Vote:


If only he'd been born a Saudi prince... or an AM radio talk host.
   1317. Lassus Posted: October 19, 2018 at 03:08 PM (#5771334)
A simple truth of life is that white Europeans have shitty music.

I'm going to assume you mean RAMMSTEIN and A-HA as opposed to Brahms and Hugo Distler.
   1318. perros Posted: October 19, 2018 at 03:09 PM (#5771335)
Andrea Dworkin wrote a good chapter on Tolstoy excoriating him for his bullshit.

Ironically, you'd like her atttitude:

“I don’t find compromise unacceptable, I find it incomprehensible.”


The recent death of Andrea Dworkin didn’t even make the small print news in Russia. Feminism, at least the feminism of the kind Westerners take for granted, never caught on. Patronizing Westerners often see that as a sign that Russians are culturally too primitive. Russians, particularly Russian women — and particularly the Russian female intelligentsia — literally laugh and roll their eyes when you mention feminism of the American or West European brand. The reason is fairly simple: Russians haven’t quite learned the Western art of sloganeering for radical philosophy without meaning a word of what they say. A Russian woman would assume that if you’re a feminist, you’d actually have to live out the philosophy. In that sense, Andrea Dworkin was, in her own way, the only “Russian” feminist in America — and that is why she was so hated.

There was a strange undertone of smug satisfaction in the obituaries for Andrea Dworkin. The fact that she died relatively young, at 58, got a lot of space, followed by long descriptions of her obesity and the medical problems that supposedly resulted from it. In other words, she was fat, fat, fat. Case closed.

Then there were her stories of rape and abuse, which theLondon Times called “probability-defying.” American papers were more sly and cowardly, of course, but managed to imply that she was crazy as well as fat.

Feminists more comfortable in the meanstream had some very strange comments on her. Elaine Showalter, a sleek Princeton gender commissar, said, “I don’t wish Andrea Dworkin any harm, but I doubt that many women will get up at 4 am to watch her funeral.”

If you know anything about the verbal habits of upper-echelon academics, this is easy to translate: “Die, you #####! Shut up and die so I can dance on your XL grave!”


Pretty sure I fulfill the prime leftist stereotype: I hate America.
   1319. Zonk is not as Outlandish as he could be Posted: October 19, 2018 at 03:11 PM (#5771340)
I'm going to assume you mean RAMMSTEIN and A-HA as opposed to Brahms and Hugo Distler.


I'm going to assume you misspelled some other band as A-HA
   1320. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 19, 2018 at 03:11 PM (#5771341)

DeRisi, a 74-year-old resident of Smithtown, New York, is due to appear in federal court in Central Islip on Friday afternoon.
Not his first brush with infamy:
Smithtown man accused of cutting cable wires on cell tower

Police say a man who did not want a cell phone tower near his Smithtown home is accused of cutting the cable wires. According to police, Ronald Derisi cut the cables on a 210 foot cell tower built at the Smithtown Highway Department on Monday.

Metro PCS says it will cost more than $100,000 to repair.

Derisi was worried the tower would hurt his property value, according to Newsday.

Derisi is charged with criminal mischief.
   1321. Lassus Posted: October 19, 2018 at 03:15 PM (#5771344)
I'm going to assume you misspelled some other band as A-HA

That was because I couldn't think of Roxette fast enough, sorry. I do like A-ha.
   1322. perros Posted: October 19, 2018 at 03:18 PM (#5771345)
Smithtown man accused of cutting cable wires on cell tower


Like the support wires? How would one go about doing that?
   1323. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 19, 2018 at 03:18 PM (#5771346)
Yeah, like she isn't out there trying to build up momentum for a possible run. (*) Pull the other one.


As I've said, I'll believe she's done running when I see it.

Which is a separate issue from whether her next campaign can gain any traction. (What should give folks pause however is that there aren't a lot of solid D candidates out there -- or certainly nobody has stepped into the lead.)

But power hungry people have a difficult time ceasing their power grabs.
   1324. Zonk is not as Outlandish as he could be Posted: October 19, 2018 at 03:19 PM (#5771347)
That was because I couldn't think of Roxette fast enough, sorry. I do like A-ha.


You're only making it worse.
   1325. Zonk is not as Outlandish as he could be Posted: October 19, 2018 at 03:21 PM (#5771350)
What should give folks pause however is that there aren't a lot of solid D candidates out there -- or certainly nobody has stepped into the lead.)


Yes, when I reminisce about the 2016 GOP field and primary, such a thought gives me such long and terrible pause that I can hardly stand it.
   1326. JL72 Posted: October 19, 2018 at 03:21 PM (#5771351)
Like the support wires? How would one go about doing that?


Probably the communication wires that take the cell signals and send them to the switch.
   1327. BrianBrianson Posted: October 19, 2018 at 03:27 PM (#5771355)
As I've said, I'll believe she's done running when I see it.


I mean, it's obvious they'll have to fit her coffin with a treadmill. But it's not interesting because her chances of being the (D)'s nom in 2020 are only a smidge higher than Alan Patridge's.
   1328. perros Posted: October 19, 2018 at 03:28 PM (#5771356)
Bivens would know.
   1329. PreservedFish Posted: October 19, 2018 at 03:34 PM (#5771360)
A-ha


Alan Patridge
   1330. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 19, 2018 at 03:36 PM (#5771361)
“You think you’re having a hard time — I got $5million worth of negative ads going at me,” Dave Brat told inmates at the Chesterfield County jail on Wednesday. “How do you think I’m feeling? Nothing’s easy. For anybody. You think I’m a congressman. ‘Oh, life’s easy. This guys’s off having steaks.’ Baloney, I got a daughter, she’s got to deal with that crap on TV every day. It’s tough.”

Yeah, I do wonder how that daughter of his likes listening to Trump's misogynistic rants every time she turns on the TV, the kind that Clapper pretends never happen.
   1331. Davo Posted: October 19, 2018 at 03:42 PM (#5771366)
1318. perros Posted: October 19, 2018 at 03:09 PM (#5771335)
Andrea Dworkin wrote a good chapter on Tolstoy excoriating him for his bullshit.

In Intercourse, right? I actually own that book; the Madame Bovary chapter is the other one that really stood out to me:

For her creator, Gustave Flaubert, intercourse had been “always secondary.” He held back, in brothers picking the ugliest prostitute and ####### her without taking his cigar out of his mouth; and to Louise Colet, his lover, he explained:

”At times I have wanted to give pleasure to a woman, but the idea of the strange spectacle I should present at the moment of doing so made me laugh so much that all my desire melted under the fire of an inner irony, which sang a hymn of mockery and derision within me.”
   1332. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 19, 2018 at 03:43 PM (#5771368)
You do have to love the specter of the Party of Science holding up a DNA test that proved Warren is white to argue that she is Native American.


"Man who claimed global warming a hoax believes his opinions on science are to be taken seriously."

Wotta scoop!

Little Lord, everything you know about molecular genetics could be written on a cocktail napkin in 24-point font.
   1333. McCoy Posted: October 19, 2018 at 03:49 PM (#5771369)
Well, that could apply to me too!
   1334. perros Posted: October 19, 2018 at 03:55 PM (#5771372)
In Intercourse, right? I actually own that book


Yeah! I read it like 30 years ago. Still sticks with me today as profoundly sensitive readings. All that fat and bluster was obviously protective covering.

People think you're trolling them when it's just genuine weirdness -- ie taking ideas seriously.
   1335. Greg K Posted: October 19, 2018 at 03:59 PM (#5771374)
I mean, I feel like I should say Northwest Passage, or Barrett's Privateers. But for me, it's probably The Wreck of the Athens Queen.

Or, you know, White Collar Holler.

The main competitor for me is The Mary Ellen Carter.
   1336. PreservedFish Posted: October 19, 2018 at 04:00 PM (#5771375)
Is the continued mocking of "Party of Science" a suggestion that the Democrats actually are not the party of science? Is there any serious way in which they aren't?

I mean other than TGF's argument that they ignore data that colored people are less intelligent.
   1337. Greg K Posted: October 19, 2018 at 04:04 PM (#5771376)
As for European music, could we really call ourselves a civilization if the Cardigans had never recorded an album?
   1338. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 19, 2018 at 04:17 PM (#5771381)
Is the continued mocking of "Party of Science" a suggestion that the Democrats actually are not the party of science? Is there any serious way in which they aren't?


I once met a hippie who voted for McGovern and said vaccines "harshed [his] mellow".
   1339. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 19, 2018 at 04:18 PM (#5771383)
As I've said, I'll believe she's done running when I see it.


I mean, it's obvious they'll have to fit her coffin with a treadmill. But it's not interesting because her chances of being the (D)'s nom in 2020 are only a smidge higher than Alan Patridge's.


I'd be happy to take Bivens odds on the odds that Hillary ends up as the D nominee in 2020. 20-1. I put up $100 to win $2,000 if Hillary ends up as the D nominee.

Any takers?
   1340. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 19, 2018 at 04:20 PM (#5771384)
I'll also put up $100 to win $3,000 that Hillary is our next president.

Anyone?
   1341. PepTech Posted: October 19, 2018 at 04:21 PM (#5771385)
power hungry people have a difficult time ceasing their power grabs
There's a phrase that seems apt, here... something about an inability to apply a precept to the other side showing an amusing lack of self-awareness.
   1342. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 19, 2018 at 04:23 PM (#5771387)
Yeah, I do wonder how that daughter of his likes listening to Trump's misogynistic rants every time she turns on the TV, the kind that Clapper pretends never happen.


But did PolitiFact ****LIE**** when dishonestly editing the video of Trump offering to pay $1 million, Andy?

Come on. You can say it. The truth doesn't bite.
   1343. BrianBrianson Posted: October 19, 2018 at 04:25 PM (#5771389)
Not all of us are bigshot lawyers. I can do a loonie against a nickel.
   1344. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 19, 2018 at 05:09 PM (#5771402)
As for European music


I am going to go out on a limb and suggest Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Handel and such can stand tall in any discussion regarding music.
   1345. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 19, 2018 at 05:18 PM (#5771404)
   1346. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 19, 2018 at 05:28 PM (#5771408)
The Senate Judiciary Committee can be slowed, but it can't be stopped. Judiciary Committee Keeps Humming Along:
On Wednesday, the committee held a hearing on the nomination of Allison Jones Rushing to a Fourth Circuit seat in North Carolina and on five district-court nominations. Next Wednesday, it intends to hold a hearing on two Ninth Circuit nominations—Eric Miller (in Washington) and Bridget Bade (in Arizona) and one district-court nomination. The committee aims to report these nominations to the Senate floor by late November.

On Wednesday, November 14, the committee intends to hold a hearing on Third Circuit/New Jersey nominee Paul Matey and four district-court nominees. The committee aims to report these nominations to the Senate floor in early December.

Already pending on the Senate floor are one appellate nomination (Jonathan Kobes, CA8/South Dakota) and 31 district-court nominations. Two other appellate nominees—Eric Murphy and Chad Readler, each to a CA6 seat in Ohio—are awaiting their committee votes, as are nine district-court nominees. So that’s a total of seven appellate nominees and 50 district-court nominees who should be ready for a Senate floor vote in December. If these nominees are all confirmed, that will take President Trump’s two-year total to 36 federal appellate judges and 104 federal district judges—plus, of course, Justice Gorsuch and Justice Kavanaugh. [emphasis added]

With those vacancies filled, the pace should slow a bit, although there will likely be a steady stream of George W. Bush appointees electing to retire or take senior status as they qualify under the judicial retirement system, as well as a smaller number of Clinton or Obama appointees.
   1347. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 19, 2018 at 05:35 PM (#5771409)
All men die.
   1348. Greg K Posted: October 19, 2018 at 05:48 PM (#5771412)
Fun article on why pre-modern fictional characters never tell us about their feelings.

If that’s the case, the historical shift in literature from just-the-facts narration to the tracing of mental peregrinations may have had an unintended side effect: helping to train precisely the skills that people needed to function in societies that were becoming more socially complex and ambiguous.
   1349. BDC Posted: October 19, 2018 at 06:06 PM (#5771416)
Fun article on why pre-modern fictional characters never tell us about their feelings


It is fun, and certainly true in a sense. It's remarkable, when you teach the big Western Civ survey, to get to Montaigne, and suddenly here's this guy talking about his personal mental states in a perfectly modern way, it seems out of nowhere.

But it also may be an effect of the way we've secularized the literary tradition. There's plenty of introspection in the Christian tradition, from Augustine to Julian of Norwich, but we're less interested in that because it's a different subject matter.

Or for a fictional example, Dante's characters: they're not modern, but they have mental lives; it's just that their mental lives are centered in sin and/or salvation.
   1350. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 19, 2018 at 06:30 PM (#5771418)
Saudis admit Khashoggi died at their hands. They say a fight broke out at the embassy and he was accidentally, uh, dismembered.
   1351. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 19, 2018 at 06:34 PM (#5771419)
Saudis admit Khashoggi died at their hands.


And they fired a random general. So, we all good now?

They say a fight broke out at the embassy and he was accidentally, uh, dismembered.


Have you not seen Kill Bill?
   1352. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 19, 2018 at 06:37 PM (#5771421)
.
   1353. Zonk is not as Outlandish as he could be Posted: October 19, 2018 at 06:39 PM (#5771422)
Tails was “a wizard did it”
   1354. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 19, 2018 at 06:40 PM (#5771423)
Saudis say MBS will head up the investigation into Khashoggi's death. That should clear things up.

Meanwhile, Trump gets an idea...
   1355. perros Posted: October 19, 2018 at 06:43 PM (#5771424)
Trump Never Handles Anything Right

Public scorn, meanwhile, has also been directed at those who shared the Trump Administration’s high regard for the crown prince and hailed him as a modernizing young reformer. The Times columnist Tom Friedman has taken endless grief for his column “Saudi Arabia’s Arab Spring, at Last,” from November, 2017, which was filled with encomiums for M.B.S., and long lists of pro-Saudi commentary by Washington’s Mideast hands have been widely circulated. Dennis Ross, the veteran Middle East diplomat who served Presidents of both parties, from George H. W. Bush to Barack Obama, is one of them. Like Friedman, Ross is no Trump apologist, but he wrote effusively about M.B.S.’s reforms, seeing them as a hopeful sign of Western-style moderation, not the centralizing impulse of the rising autocrat M.B.S. has turned out to be. “America should get behind Saudi Arabia’s revolutionary crown prince,” Ross wrote in the Post in February, in an article that has earned him loads of hate tweets this week. (His words, one commenter declared, “should live in infamy.”)

Ross told me that the latest controversy was a reminder of the uncomfortable truth about America’s decades-old alliance with Saudi Arabia: “The relationship with Saudi Arabia has always been based on interests, not values.” Ross said that he still sees M.B.S. as a religious modernizer whose country is a key partner for the United States, but that Trump has postponed an inevitable rebuke by failing to take a tougher line. “This cannot pass without a consequence, not only because of the Saudis but because everybody’s watching,” Ross told me. “You have to have norms, you have to have consequences, you have to show there are behaviors that really can’t be tolerated so this doesn’t become the new normal.”


What kills me is that taking a bone saw to Khashoggi would have been business as usual if norms were followed, if MbS hadn't been so brazen and left room for thr Friedmans and Rosses to defend him and lobbyists and think tanks to continue taking in money.

But that argument, of course, is exactly why Trump has Washington worked up in a rare bipartisan lather. There may be accountability, at least for a moment, for the city’s pundits and influence peddlers. But, once again, the President himself seems insistent on brazening his way out of uncomfortable facts. It is a script we’ve seen Trump follow before: defending the Russian President, Vladimir Putin; praising the Chinese strongman Xi Jinping; falling “in love” with the North Korean dictator Kim Jong Un.

All three of them, as the former Air Force general and National Security Agency chief Michael Hayden told the Times this week, have carried out extrajudicial attacks on foreign soil during the Trump Presidency.


Trump carries out extrajudicial killing on foreign soil, which followed Obama's lead carrying out drone strikes, which followed Bush's use of US personnel to torture folks, who continued Clinton's extraordinary rendition to third parties for torture. Nobody wants to connect the dots, to point out how the extraordinary violation of both national and international rule of law and the repeated breaking of governmental norms, and the press' willingness to play along when gov't officials played nice with them, led us to Donald ####### Trump.

The US no longer runs the international show, nor has authority to assert in dealing with our allies. Saudi Arabia (and Israel, which was at the forefront of extrajudicial killings long before any axis of evil) in fact run us, use the US arms and military personnel to accomplish their military and political goals.

As one of the first Trump scandals demonstrated -- Flynn contacting Russian ambassador at the behest of Israel (Jared Kusher, pocket #####, as intermediary of both Bibi and MbS) -- we are no longer in the driver's seat. Election meddling may be the least of our worries going forward.
   1356. perros Posted: October 19, 2018 at 06:46 PM (#5771425)
Have you not seen Kill Bill?


Excellent.

Think we can wrangle Uma a White House invitation?
   1357. Zonk is not as Outlandish as he could be Posted: October 19, 2018 at 06:46 PM (#5771426)
"...on the heels of his pardon, Paul Manafort is making himself comfortable in his new offices overseeing the wrapping up of the Russian election interference investigation.

New minority leader for life Kevin McCarthy sought to tamp down complaints from Trump hardliners that Manafort was an out-of-control Deep Stater... "
   1358. Zonk is not as Outlandish as he could be Posted: October 19, 2018 at 07:03 PM (#5771428)
   1359. manchestermets Posted: October 19, 2018 at 07:28 PM (#5771429)
Dan Quayle was forever being brought up as a Presidential candidate long after any chance he could get anyone other than his immediate family to vote for hm.


As late as 21 January 1993?
   1360. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 19, 2018 at 07:37 PM (#5771430)
Dan Quayle was forever being brought up as a Presidential candidate long after any chance he could get anyone other than his immediate family to vote for hm.


As late as 21 January 1993?


Quayle ran for the Republican nomination in 2000.
   1361. PreservedFish Posted: October 19, 2018 at 07:45 PM (#5771433)
I was a pre-teen in Quayle's heyday and all I ever knew about him, and all I still know about him, is that he was a dolt. I wonder how much that reflected the "low information voters" of the time.
   1362. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 19, 2018 at 07:52 PM (#5771436)
Quayle ran for the Republican nomination in 2000.

More accurately, Quayle ran for the Republican nomination from April through September of 1999, withdrawing not long after finishing 8th in the infamous Ames Straw Poll in Iowa. He never made it to 2000 - no votes & no delegates.
   1363. GregD Posted: October 19, 2018 at 08:04 PM (#5771437)
More accurately, Quayle ran for the Republican nomination from April through September of 1999, withdrawing not long after finishing 8th in the infamous Ames Straw Poll in Iowa. He never made it to 2000 - no votes & no delegates.
He was sure the Bush family would back him out of loyalty....which is better evidence of his stupidity than any of his more-celebrated gaffes
   1364. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 19, 2018 at 08:14 PM (#5771439)
“You think you’re having a hard time — I got $5million worth of negative ads going at me,” Dave Brat told inmates at the Chesterfield County jail on Wednesday. “How do you think I’m feeling? Nothing’s easy. For anybody. You think I’m a congressman. ‘Oh, life’s easy. This guys’s off having steaks.’ Baloney, I got a daughter, she’s got to deal with that crap on TV every day. It’s tough.”

Yeah, I do wonder how that daughter of his likes listening to Trump's misogynistic rants every time she turns on the TV, the kind that Clapper pretends never happen.

But did PolitiFact ****LIE**** when dishonestly editing the video of Trump offering to pay $1 million, Andy?

Come on. You can say it. The truth doesn't bite.


Somebody's seeming very defensive about his hero, isn't he? I wonder why.

I also wonder what Brat's daughter thinks when she sees Trump treating that Montana thug of a congressman as some sort of a role model for punching out a reporter.

I already know what you think of it: It was smart politics because he got liberals to react to it.
   1365. Zonk is not as Outlandish as he could be Posted: October 19, 2018 at 08:32 PM (#5771441)
Quayle just didn’t realize that by 1999 - GOP base preferences for brainy technocrats was ending.
   1366. Mike A Posted: October 19, 2018 at 08:43 PM (#5771444)
I guess I find out next week if I've been purged from the Georgia voter rolls. I feel like this should be a bigger story... Georgia is a complete mess and it's raising serious questions about the legitimacy of this election. But hey...I did receive a flyer in the mail from Karen Handel (R) today, and as typical of Georgia, she's apparently running against Nancy Pelosi. The big headline on the flyer is: "PELOSI WANTS POWER." There's also a picture of Hillary and a scowling Lucy McBath (her actual opponent). Good stuff.
   1367. Howie Menckel Posted: October 19, 2018 at 09:12 PM (#5771453)
in my district, I've got a former US Navy helicopter pilot/federal prosecutor with 4 kids vs an attorney with 7 kids.

I get multiple glossy mailings a day from both sides - too many that clarify for me how awful the opponent is.
   1368. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 19, 2018 at 10:19 PM (#5771487)
If not John Delaney, who? Tulsi Gabbard Weighing 2020 Presidential Bid:
Democratic Rep. Tulsi Gabbard of Hawaii is considering running for president in 2020, a source with direct knowledge of her deliberations told POLITICO.

Low on name recognition, but less than half the age of Joe Biden or Bernie Sanders.
   1369. Zonk is not as Outlandish as he could be Posted: October 19, 2018 at 10:50 PM (#5771517)
Alaska is weird.

On the heals of his Lt Governor and running Byron Mallott resigning for still-unknown "inappropriate comments", governor Bill Walker is also calling it quits - and is endorsing Democrat Mark Begich.

Begich, Walker and Republican Mike Dunleavy were in a 3-way race, with most polls showing Begich and Walker each with about 25-30% behind Dunleavy's 40%.
   1370. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 19, 2018 at 10:55 PM (#5771522)
But did PolitiFact ****LIE**** when dishonestly editing the video of Trump offering to pay $1 million, Andy?

Come on. You can say it. The truth doesn't bite.


Somebody's seeming very defensive about his hero, isn't he? I wonder why.


Geez, it didn't take JE this long to confirm that Trump is despicable.
   1371. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 19, 2018 at 11:02 PM (#5771524)
Their son Tucker was a year behind me at Lehigh.
   1372. Howie Menckel Posted: October 19, 2018 at 11:07 PM (#5771528)
Gabbard would not be a bad "futures" bet, assuming a longshot line.
   1373. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 19, 2018 at 11:09 PM (#5771532)

Gabbard would not be a bad "futures" bet, assuming
that they let Bashar Al-Assad vote.
   1374. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 19, 2018 at 11:16 PM (#5771536)
Geez, it didn't take JE this long to confirm that Trump is despicable.

On that subject, it' a 3 way tie among JE, you and Clapper.
   1375. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 19, 2018 at 11:18 PM (#5771538)
News Flash: The Saudis Are Bastards
By Rich Lowry

October 18, 2018 12:11 PM

What’s surprising about the Khashoggi murder isn’t that the Saudis would kill a critic, but that they would be so brazen about it. They really thought he could enter their consulate and not come out and no one would notice? The story that he was accidentally killed and the operation was carried out without the knowledge of Mohammad Bin Salman looks like transparent nonsense. All signs point to a hideous state-sanctioned murder straight out of a Quentin Tarantino movie.

What to do about it?

...
   1376. DJS Thinks Apples and Oranges are Similar Posted: October 19, 2018 at 11:22 PM (#5771540)
In case Andy wants to move on from Lard Lad in order to not be lazy and give multiple people the same nickname, an internet weirdo dubbed me Soyboy Alex Jones.
   1377. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 19, 2018 at 11:33 PM (#5771554)
Civility Is for Suckers
By Rich Lowry

Our system of government is increasingly held in low regard on the left.

It’s doubtful that a former American presidential candidate has ever formally endorsed incivility before, but Hillary Clinton is ever full of surprises.

In an interview on CNN, the erstwhile advocate of “if they go low, we go high” switched around to unapologetically call for going low.

“You cannot be civil with a political party,” she explained, “that wants to destroy what you stand for, what you care about.” She added that if Democrats retake a house of Congress, well, then, “that’s when civility can start again.”

Clinton’s statement is yet more confirmation of the radical mood of the current Democratic party, not just in blessing tactics that once would have been anathema to the mainstream, but questioning the legitimacy of core elements of our system. The party’s base is just a few steps from beginning to give up on our common national life.



In the Brett Kavanaugh debate, the normal pressure points of the democratic process (rallies and demonstrations, phone calls to congressional offices, online, print, and TV advocacy) were deemed insufficient — senators had to be berated in the hallways, chased out of restaurants, and harassed at their homes.



Our system of government is increasingly held in low regard on the left. The 2016 election was somehow stolen, and the mechanism that gave Trump his victory, the Electoral College, is illegitimate. The Senate, which confirmed Kavanaugh and gives small, red states the same representation as large, blue states, is also illegitimate. Finally, the Supreme Court, now home to two Trump-appointed justices, is illegitimate as well.

That’s a lot of illegitimacy, all stemming from one lost presidential election. Imagine if Democrats lose another? The fact is that if you believe an institution is legitimate only if you control it or it works in your favor, you never truly believed in its legitimacy to begin with.

Perhaps the Democratic fever will pass if the party gains some power again, as Clinton suggested in her remarks.
   1378. Shredder Posted: October 19, 2018 at 11:42 PM (#5771571)
On the heals of his Lt Governor and running Byron Mallott resigning for still-unknown "inappropriate comments", governor Bill Walker is also calling it quits - and is endorsing Democrat Mark Begich.
Sweet. About two years ago when I was visiting my brother in Anchorage, we went to a house concert at Tom Begich's house, Mark's brother. Tom was running for state legislature at the time, and ended up winning. It was a pretty cool show. The artist that night was John Craigie, who is not only a great musician, but also hilarious.
   1379. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 19, 2018 at 11:56 PM (#5771591)
Hillary’s #MeToo Nightmare

By Rich Lowry

Hillary Clinton won the political battle over Bill Clinton’s sexual misadventures in the 1990s, at the cost of having to litigate them forevermore.

In the era of #MeToo, her defenses and rationalizations for Bill are especially tinny and embarrassing. But she can’t show any weakness — any more than she could in 1998, when she helped rally the White House — lest she implicitly admit that providing cover for her husband’s misconduct for years was a mistake, or at least a significant compromise of her feminism.

Advocating for “believing women” when your husband and political partner has had so many accusers is a test of audacity that Hillary remains determined to pass, as she demonstrated when two recent interviewers brought up the Monica Lewinsky scandal.

CBS News correspondent Tony Dokoupil wanted to know if a 49-year-old President Clinton carrying on with a 22-year-old intern was an abuse of power. Hillary rejected the notion out of hand. How, Dokoupil followed up, could an intern really consent, given the vast power dynamic? She was an adult, Hillary shot back. … ...

Bill Clinton’s role was blameworthy nonetheless. It doesn’t take a fourth-wave feminist to realize that a president of the United States having an intern he barely knows perform oral sex on him while he talks on the phone in the Oval Office is grossly exploitative. If this had been a movie director or a media executive, everyone would recognize it as an appalling abuse of power, even Hillary Clinton.

...

If Hillary doesn’t want to spend her time re-litigating 20-year-old scandals — as well as her loss in 2016 — she could simply step out of the public eye. It’s not as though her own side gains anything from her constant presence. Nor will the 2020 Democratic field lack for women candidates. All of those candidates will presumably be less conflicted talking about #MeToo, because they’ve never mounted bare-knuckled political defenses of their powerful, scandal-plagued husbands.

But Hillary isn’t going anywhere. She and Bill are about to embark on a nationwide speaking tour. Their prominence will serve as a reminder that no matter what progressives say now, when push came to shove and they had to decide between protecting one of their own in high office and their feminist principles, it wasn’t even a close call.

This is a public service of a sort, although one that no Democrat should welcome.

   1380. Zonk is not as Outlandish as he could be Posted: October 19, 2018 at 11:59 PM (#5771593)
What’s surprising about the Khashoggi murder isn’t that the Saudis would kill a critic, but that they would be so brazen about it. They really thought he could enter their consulate and not come out and no one would notice? The story that he was accidentally killed and the operation was carried out without the knowledge of Mohammad Bin Salman looks like transparent nonsense. All signs point to a hideous state-sanctioned murder straight out of a Quentin Tarantino movie.

What to do about it?


No, to people who were actually paying attention - which excludes someone like Rich Lowry - it's not surprising at all. It would have been surprising 18 months ago, but again - not everybody was as busy the last two years redefining the definition of "Never".

But what to do about it?

Well, I would start by very clearly informing the Saudis that they're to stop isolating, embargoing, and otherwise bullying Qatar just because the Qataris aren't in their Yemen fight club and have reached co-development agreements with Iran over development of Persian Gulf resources. Penalties - up to but not immediately commencing with - a cessation of military aid and even limited embargoes may result in a failure to do so.

Then, I would probably ask them to cease their hissy fit with our democratic close ally to the north. I'd make it clear that we, too, object to their imprisoning of human rights activists - and their choice is either to restore diplomatic relations with Canada or recall another north American ambassador.

Yemen is a messy situation without any easy answers - but indiscriminate strikes against civilian targets is not one of the acceptable ones. Carrots will follow sincere attempts to seek a more peaceful solution, understanding that yes, elements of the Yemeni are actually AQ/ISIL and probably cannot be brought to the peace table, but eyes will be watching - and caring - how the Saudis conduct military action going forward.

Finally, it would be made absolutely clear that acts like the murder of Khassogi or the kidnapping of the Lebanese ambassador have consequences. A cancellation of some military aid deals seems appropriate. If they wish to escalate to the point of embargoes - so be it. If they, instead, decide to quit acting like the wild man of Arabia - it's possible some of the lesser penalties and perhaps some non-military carrots can come to pass.

This isn't difficult.

It actually REALLY shouldn't be difficult for anyone who recognizes Saudi Arabia doesn't actually have the US by the balls, as some people seem to think. If Saudi Arabia wishes to be isolated as a rogue regime, so be it.
   1381. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 19, 2018 at 11:59 PM (#5771594)
In case Andy wants to move on from Lard Lad in order to not be lazy and give multiple people the same nickname, an internet weirdo dubbed me Soyboy Alex Jones.


As I've noted before, Alex Jones looks like Sam. (Moreso than Jones looks like you.)
   1382. Howie Menckel Posted: October 20, 2018 at 12:01 AM (#5771596)
I almost posted in the NLCS thread, but no:

I hope this is not political, as I am a moderate - but the Applebee's commercial late in this LAD-MIL baseball game using the Etta James song "At Last" for their new pasta dishes seems a bit offensive, in light of the same song's usage in a Presidential inauguration a decade ago. geesh.

c'mon, the first African-American President is elected, even if it's not your candidate - it's a historic time.

now the song is stuck hawking mediocre Applebee's "Italian dishes?"

#cmonman
   1383. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 20, 2018 at 12:11 AM (#5771612)
It would have been surprising 18 months ago,


Not in the least.
   1384. Zonk is not as Outlandish as he could be Posted: October 20, 2018 at 12:15 AM (#5771614)
It would have been surprising 18 months ago,

Not in the least.


Oh?

And explain how you came to this conclusion.
   1385. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 20, 2018 at 12:19 AM (#5771621)
Oh?

And explain how you came to this conclusion.


Because Obama didn't actually walk on water.
   1386. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 20, 2018 at 12:22 AM (#5771624)
On the heals of his Lt Governor and running Byron Mallott resigning for still-unknown "inappropriate comments", governor Bill Walker is also calling it quits - and is endorsing Democrat Mark Begich.

Walker was actually ahead of Begich, narrowly, in both Alaska Governor polls at RCP this month, although trailing GOP candidate Mike Dunleavey by 16% & 20%. The early analysis suggests that Walker's withdrawal might tighten the race, but not change the outcome:
A poll released by Alaska Survey Research this week showed Dunleavy with 43 percent of likely voters' support, compared to 27 percent and 26 percent for Walker and Begich, respectively. An analysis in the poll of a hypothetical race between just Begich and Dunleavy significantly tightened the margin, with the Republican having a 52 to 45 percent lead with 3.5 percent of voters undecided.

The endorsement of an unpopular incumbent who won't level with the voters about his Lt. Governor's resignation probably won't swing the race, but it's an interesting development.
   1387. Zonk is not as Outlandish as he could be Posted: October 20, 2018 at 12:38 AM (#5771627)
Because Obama didn't actually walk on water.


No, he didn't.

But the US had made significant diplomatic moves towards making it clear to the Saudis that it our relationship was no longer going to be pure realpolitik. Certain arms sales were blocked in the waning days of the Obama administration - a deal for cluster munitions was cancelled, for example.

There is a vast array of options that could have been employed in regards to the Saudis... the prior administration wasn't perfect in employing them, but they were pulling different levers... and the Saudis were not kidnapping and murdering people at the consulates in NATO allies, kidnapping ambassadors, etc... until last spring.
   1388. Lassus Posted: October 20, 2018 at 12:45 AM (#5771629)
now the song is stuck hawking mediocre Applebee's "Italian dishes?"

That song has been hawking things forever. I remember Jaguar ads specifically.
   1389. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 20, 2018 at 12:53 AM (#5771631)
Glenn Simpson invoked the 5th. Nellie Ohr invoked spousal privilege to limit her answers.

It's far too early to draw any conclusions, but it's interesting to note. Could bear watching.

(Perhaps the Ohrs shouldn't have allowed their professional work to entangle like this? It's a neat trick. Involve yourselves like this professionally and then later when a government oversight committee tries to get to the bottom of it you invoke spousal privilege.)
   1390. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: October 20, 2018 at 03:20 AM (#5771645)
Clapper, #1362:
Quayle ran for the Republican nomination in 2000.
More accurately, Quayle ran for the Republican nomination from April through September of 1999, withdrawing not long after finishing 8th in the infamous Ames Straw Poll in Iowa. He never made it to 2000 - no votes & no delegates.

So... Dan Quayle tripled Gov. Scott Walker's performance?



Clapper, #1368:
If not John Delaney, who? Tulsi Gabbard Weighing 2020 Presidential Bid:
Democratic Rep. Tulsi Gabbard of Hawaii is considering running for president in 2020, a source with direct knowledge of her deliberations told POLITICO.
Low on name recognition, but less than half the age of Joe Biden or Bernie Sanders.

Ha ha ha, Democrats are familiar old farts who've been around long enough to amass name recognition, and they're also young nobodies who haven't been around long enough to get name recognition. Ha ha!
   1391. McCoy Posted: October 20, 2018 at 05:57 AM (#5771648)
Re 1366. You can look up online if you are registered to vote.

You also would have gotten a letter I'm the mail telling you that you were going to be purged unless you did X.
   1392. Greg K Posted: October 20, 2018 at 07:57 AM (#5771653)
No, he didn't.

But the US had made significant diplomatic moves towards making it clear to the Saudis that it our relationship was no longer going to be pure realpolitik. Certain arms sales were blocked in the waning days of the Obama administration - a deal for cluster munitions was cancelled, for example.

There is a vast array of options that could have been employed in regards to the Saudis... the prior administration wasn't perfect in employing them, but they were pulling different levers... and the Saudis were not kidnapping and murdering people at the consulates in NATO allies, kidnapping ambassadors, etc... until last spring.


If anything Obama's move towards reconciliation with Iran likely scared the #### out of Saudi Arabia. Whether keeping that up would have improved their behaviour, who knows.

The article that sparked this little back and forth seems to be saying that the Khashoggi murder is surprising. This Lowry fellow says that the brazenness with which Saudi Arabia acted was surprising. Which, I'm sure for his Khashoggi's family doesn't really matter, dead is dead. But diplomatically speaking it is pretty alarming that Saudi Arabia would be so reckless. I mean, you can chalk it up to the government having a collective brain fart, or you can see it as a pattern of recent behaviour where a traditionally irresponsible state has been acting more and more irresponsibly in recent years.
   1393. Lassus Posted: October 20, 2018 at 08:02 AM (#5771655)
Gee, I wonder what Hillary's up to?
   1394. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: October 20, 2018 at 08:40 AM (#5771659)
I'm pretty sure she died right after her broken body was pushed into the van.
   1395. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 20, 2018 at 08:43 AM (#5771661)
Gee, I wonder what Hillary's up to?


Notice how both her AND George Soros haven’t offered an opinion on the Khashoggi murder? He was a Washington reporter. Who knows what he may have learned during his investigations.
   1396. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: October 20, 2018 at 08:44 AM (#5771662)
Speaking of 2016 and 2018, there was a lovely catch by a twittering Twitterer of Joe Donnelly's "new" Senate campaign ad, versus someone else's campaign ad from two years ago.
   1397. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 20, 2018 at 09:43 AM (#5771669)
Quayle ran for the Republican nomination in 2000.

More accurately, Quayle ran for the Republican nomination from April through September of 1999, withdrawing not long after finishing 8th in the infamous Ames Straw Poll in Iowa. He never made it to 2000 - no votes & no delegates.


Good lord David. Either stop nit picking, or stop complaining when others pick your nits. Dan Quayle ran for the 2000 Republican Presidential nomination, just like Rick Perry and Lindsay Graham ran for the 2016 republican Presidential nomination even though they dropped out in 2015. Your clarification was unnecessary.
   1398. . Posted: October 20, 2018 at 09:54 AM (#5771673)
Saudi Arabia was a model global citizen when Obama was in office. Duh.
   1399. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 20, 2018 at 10:05 AM (#5771674)
Yeah Juanabout Obama?
   1400. Count Posted: October 20, 2018 at 10:09 AM (#5771675)
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