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Monday, October 15, 2018

OTP 2018 October 15: The shift in focus from sport to politics

Since I’m hinting at it, here’s my shameless plug: if you can sit through four hours of football and its stoppage time, you can’t justify calling baseball boring. October belongs to America’s pastime. I feel that this whole landscape will look different a decade from now, with football at the lower half of the totem pole.

My opinion isn’t entirely biased. This issue with politics bleeding into the discussion is a serious crutch for an otherwise praised NFL, and until that’s no longer a factor, people are going to shift away. The NBA waters are nice these days too, I’m hearing.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 15, 2018 at 08:26 AM | 1522 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off topic, politics

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   501. PreservedFish Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:04 PM (#5767979)
I'm a big fan of "vekueve." That's a typo with some potential.
   502. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:06 PM (#5767981)
Well, since he said "totally", that's good enough for me:


I'm trying to figure out if totally denying it is better or worse than strongly denying it. IOW, which denial is stronger, MBS's or Roy Moore's? And here do Putin and Kavanaugh fit in here?
   503. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:10 PM (#5767985)

There is really no such thing as a momentum killer outside of the candidate dropping dead
That would be the one thing that could get me to vote for Trump.
   504. McCoy Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:11 PM (#5767988)
Looks like I picked the wrong day. Early voting in GA was 3 times higher yesterday than it was in 2016.
   505. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:13 PM (#5767991)
Turns out that not all Republican congressional candidates are having difficulty raising money...

Maxine Waters opponent, Omar Navarro, pulled in a pretty damn nifty $450,000 last quarter.

If the name sounds familiar, it's because we've discussed Navarro before -- specifically, when listing out the various ex-cons and indicted Republicans running.

Navarro has already made a name for himself as a perennial candidate at the tender age of 29. He's got a stalking conviction. Several of his former campaign 'staff' call him a hothead and dangerous. He's been kicked off GOP orgs for all manner of incendiary wherewithal, and he previously finished last in 14-person county council race... including to a guy whose entire campaign was dressing like a chicken.

Money well-spent, though!
   506. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:19 PM (#5767995)
among the names being thrown around seriously I’d slot her way behind Bernie and Avenatti, about even with Gillibrand, but miles ahead of Booker, Biden, McAuliffe, Harris, etc.


And that is one reason why you are not a serious person.
   507. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:21 PM (#5767999)
That any sane person would vote for Trump over... well, anybody, on moral grounds, is mind-boggling.


You're assuming too much. Voting for Trump is clear and defining evidence that they're not, in fact, sane. Anyone who can be shown to have voted for Trump in 2016, at any level, or who have drifted over to 'holstering for him over wet dreams of the SCOTUS installing men only access codes on the nation's vaginas, should be treated as a felon. Their voting rights should be revoked for no less than 10 years.
   508. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:22 PM (#5768001)
And that is one reason why you are not a serious person.


Avenatti is a wild card but Warren is a dead candidate walking.
   509. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:24 PM (#5768004)
You're assuming too much. Voting for Trump is clear and defining evidence that they're not, in fact, sane. Anyone who can be shown to have voted for Trump in 2016, at any level, or who have drifted over to 'holstering for him over wet dreams of the SCOTUS installing men only access codes on the nation's vaginas, should be treated as a felon. Their voting rights should be revoked for no less than 10 years.


You're going soft...

Run your campaign how you'd like, but it's still pretty early to tack to the center for my vote.
   510. . Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:26 PM (#5768006)
In 1992, 10,000 Maniacs along with Michael Stipe performed that song at the Clinton inaugural.


Did they sing to a big Kim Jong Un picture? Are they major league singers singing in that capacity for a crowd celebrating the President?

   511. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:28 PM (#5768008)
Did they sing to a big Kim Jong Un picture? Are they major league singers singing in that capacity for a crowd celebrating the President?


68
   512. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:29 PM (#5768009)
506: Because I like him, or because you don’t think he’s a serious candidate?
   513. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:29 PM (#5768010)

They accept the validity of DNA tests as long as it isn't for the purposes of declaring someone to have native american ancestry.


Except they aren't.

They're taking no position against Warren having "native american ancestry", they're taking a position that having "native american ancestry" (distant NA ancestor) doesn't automatically qualify her as having any connection to Cherokee Nation.

They're making the simple point that in their determination (which is similar to many other NA tribes) ancestral blood/ DNA =! "heritage"/tribal citizenship.
   514. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:30 PM (#5768012)
Avenatti is a wild card but Warren is a dead candidate walking.


I'm perfectly happy to have Avenatti treating trump like a dog with a chew toy. Let him attack, attack, attack. But I don't want him anywhere near my party nor its political fights. His clown shoes foray into the Kavanaugh thing was an unmitigated disaster. If by some cruel joke by the gods he becomes the Dem presidential nominee, I might, just might, consider voting for Trump.
   515. . Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:32 PM (#5768013)
They accept the validity of DNA tests as long as it isn't for the purposes of declaring someone to have native american ancestry. Let's dispense with the ellipses when I took the trouble to excerpt the whole relevant section:

Using a DNA test to lay claim to any connection to the Cherokee Nation or any tribal nation, even vaguely, is inappropriate and wrong.


Yeah, you bolded this before. But the term used is again "connection," not "ancestry." And later they say, which you didn't quote this time because it proves you wrong, that using the tests the way Warren did makes a mockery of them, which definitively implies that their beef is with the usage of them, not the science.

As previously noted, you and yours can insist fake things in your insistent tones as much as you want. The technology and will are there to do that and, beyond the internal capacity for embarrassment, there's really no mechanism of blockage. But doing it doesn't make fake things true.
   516. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:32 PM (#5768015)
In 1992, 10,000 Maniacs along with Michael Stipe performed that song at the Clinton inaugural.


Did they sing to a big Kim Jong Un picture? Are they major league singers singing in that capacity for a crowd celebrating the President?


Because in order to compare 2 events, they have to be identical in every way or the comparison is irrelevant?

The point being, without that 1992 performance, it's unlikely the SNL thing happens.
   517. Count Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:34 PM (#5768016)
Avenatti is a con man and his stunt with Kavanaugh was very damaging (at best, he didn’t vet an accusation, and allowed partisan hacks like Kavanaugh and GOO senators lump that in with credible accusations).

Warren is not a charismatic speaker (this is gendered, surely, but still real) but she is an effective senator with good policy proposals and good enemies.
   518. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:35 PM (#5768018)
506: Because I like him, or because you don’t think he’s a serious candidate?


Because you like him as a candidate, ahead of far more serious and experienced people who wouldn't be an unmitigated disaster if elected.

He's not a serious person, he's not a serious candidate, and at this point I'm not sure he's better than Trump.
   519. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:37 PM (#5768022)
GOO senators


"vekueve" was just unseated as typo of the day.
   520. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:37 PM (#5768023)
They're taking no position against Warren having "native american ancestry", they're taking a position that having "native american ancestry" (distant NA ancestor) doesn't automatically qualify her as having any connection to Cherokee Nation.

They're making the simple point that in their determination (which is similar to many other NA tribes) ancestral blood/ DNA = !heritage/tribal citizenship.


The Tribes are in a #### spot. The have a small pie of resources to split up. And like any scarcity situation they are going to be reluctant to admit more members. Out here in the PNW there's been some controversy as the Tribes try and strengthen the requirements.

It's the same in N. MI after the Tribes were allowed to build the casinos and suddenly a few became pretty wealthy over night. Suddenly a lot more Odawas were around.

Frankly if I was a obviously native (in features and family) I'd be offended by Warren. I'm offended by her now as a white guy. I think what she's done is absurd. I don't really care if it got her any advantages or not claiming she is an ANY way native is to laugh. Who cares if it's a nice little story her family tells at Thanksgiving? Keep it out of your public persona.


He's not a serious person, he's not a serious candidate, and at this point I'm not sure he's better than Trump.


he's a pretty bright guy that can articulate the Dems message better than many of the career Dems can. He's a showman sure, but that doesn't disqualify him. You could say that Corey Booker is also not a serious candidate given his grandstanding. And certainly many on the other side of the aisle. It's a new era, for worse, but it's a new era.
   521. Count Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:40 PM (#5768024)
Hard to type on a phone!
   522. . Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:41 PM (#5768026)
Because in order to compare 2 events, they have to be identical in every way or the comparison is irrelevant?


Well, for starters they have to be identical in some way. If someone plays a song at a funeral and it turns out that it was also played at a Cinco de Mayo party, it doesn't make the events comparable.
   523. Count Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:41 PM (#5768027)
520- she doesn’t claim she’s an Indian now, she got #### for having it be part of her “persona” on and off 20-30 years ago.
   524. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:42 PM (#5768028)
He's not a serious person, he's not a serious candidate, and at this point I'm not sure he's better than Trump.


Correct, correct, let's not go overboard.
   525. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:42 PM (#5768029)
69!
   526. perros Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:42 PM (#5768030)
root for thermonuclear war. Jesus. How ####### stupid have Americans become?


This has my vote. Or af least nuke OTP for general uselessness.

Why do you imagine Liz Warren is getting dumped on -- literally compared to a #### -- here and elsewhere? An outstandingly accomplished woman of relatively humble origins being gangbanged by a bunch of overgrown boys on the internet?

There's a deep strain of other-hatred running through American history that's manifested itself through the reptilian brain of Trump. It's obviously displayed at his rallies andmaterially manifested through the GOP drive for power, but it's undeniably present in a nominally Democratic and culturally liberal gathering of white men like we have here today. An Iron John group out of the woods and without all the crying. On a deep level, we identify with Big Daddy, love him or hate him.

So yeah, Liz Warren is making the same damned mistake as Crissy Blasey if she thinks she'll get a fair shake from the male public and their representatives in the shock corridors of power. She should go ahead and accept her political extinction if she runs for President.

Just like we should accept our ultimate fate looming in the near distance of 2020.
   527. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:44 PM (#5768033)
520- she doesn’t claim she’s an Indian now, she got #### for having it be part of her “persona” on and off 20-30 years ago.


So what did the test claim? Taking the test was one of the dumbest political stunts I've ever seen. She walked into Trump's trap like she was blindfolded. That she has NOBODY around her willing to tell her what an awful idea this was tells me she's unfit to run in 2020. I'd argue that an inability to tell the candidate "no" also hurt Hillary. Ironically it appears that the Alpha Women in Democratic politics have a hard time hiring anything but yes men. Go figure.
   528. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:44 PM (#5768034)
Well, for starters they have to be identical in some way.


They are identical in the most important ways: The identical song sung on national television in tribute to Democratic Presidents.
   529. . Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:47 PM (#5768035)
Why do you imagine Liz Warren is getting dumped on -- literally compared to a #### -- here and elsewhere?


Ooh, ooh, can I guess?

Patriarchy and white privilege????? Right???????

What do I win?
   530. perros Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:48 PM (#5768037)
I'm offended by her now as a white guy.
We're toast. Grab the marshmallows and gather round the campfire and share your bigfoot stories.
   531. perros Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:50 PM (#5768038)
What do I win?


A Wicker Man celebration in your honor.
   532. . Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:50 PM (#5768039)
They are identical in the most important ways: The identical song sung on national television in tribute to Democratic Presidents.


"In tribute," LOL. Songs sung at an inauguration aren't sung "in tribute" to the incoming president, they're songs sung for the crowd.

And the fact that something kind of maybe weird using a similar song happened 24 years earlier doesn't disprove that something really weird and icky happened in 2016. Stipe and Merchant may have dipped half a toe into the icky puddle in 1992; Strong and the other SNLer cannonballed into the icky puddle in 2016.

   533. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:50 PM (#5768040)
70
   534. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:54 PM (#5768042)
@nathanmhansen
BREAKING: The Minnesota Court of Appeals has DENIED Keith Ellison’s motion to stay the District Court Order unsealing his divorce records. #mnag #stribpol


His Republican opponent was surreptitiously recorded at a fundraiser promising to fire every Democratic attorney in the state’s office and replace them with Republicans.

So I mean. I really hope there are no more skeletons in Keith’s closet.
   535. PreservedFish Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:55 PM (#5768043)
I'd be proud to vote for Warren.
   536. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:56 PM (#5768045)
She listed herself as Indian in a directory 20-30 years ago amidst a very successful academic career (I read excerpts from some of her work in law school). I don’t think she should have done that, but it’s a comparatively minor issue and iirc she apologized for overstating it years ago.

Apologized? Quite the opposite, AFAIK. You got a link to this "apology"? In any event, I'll take that as conceding that Warren should have apologized long ago.

The problem for Warren isn't that she passed on some likely bogus family lore about traces of Native American ancestry in her lineage, it's that she claimed that was sufficient to be Native American for professional purposes. She was Harvard Law's first "woman of color".
   537. Lassus Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:58 PM (#5768046)
I'd be proud to vote for Warren.

I don't understand the distaste myself.
   538. Shredder Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:59 PM (#5768047)
I'm trying to figure out if totally denying it is better or worse than strongly denying it. IOW, which denial is stronger, MBS's or Roy Moore's? And here do Putin and Kavanaugh fit in here?
Every time I see Trump buy these denials, I think of him sitting on this guy's jury.
   539. Count Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:59 PM (#5768048)
527- it tells me you are committed to a hyperbolic response based on limited facts - she isn’t claiming to be Indian now, just that there was a basis for her family lore, and she did yet while releasing a video about speaking with her conservative relatives. The point is to put it to bed for 2020. I am skeptical it is or will be effective but it’s not crazy or fatal.
   540. Lassus Posted: October 16, 2018 at 06:02 PM (#5768051)
It was always burning, since the world was turning?

Worst song in history. THE WORST.
   541. Lassus Posted: October 16, 2018 at 06:04 PM (#5768052)
Mr. High Standards.

An actual former poster. A departed righty.
   542. Lassus Posted: October 16, 2018 at 06:05 PM (#5768053)
You’ve got four notes in your whole range

I've never been a Sinatra worshipper, and was more on Gary Trudeau's side there.

But.... this just ain't true.
   543. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 16, 2018 at 06:05 PM (#5768054)
@kpottermn
Kim Ellison says there will be no details of any abuse in divorce records released as soon as tomorrow, but of medical records on two years of depression after being diagnosed with MS shortly before their divorce. #mnag
   544. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: October 16, 2018 at 06:05 PM (#5768055)
Masha Gessen in Warren’s misguided move:

"Warren ended up providing one of the clearest examples yet of how Trumpian rhetoric shifts the political conversation. The woman who is hoping to become the most progressive Democratic nominee in generations is not merely letting herself get jerked around by a Trumpian taunt. She is also reinforcing one of the most insidious ways in which Americans talk about race: as though it were a measurable biological category, one that, in some cases, can be determined by a single drop of blood. Genetic-test evidence is circular: if everyone who claims to be X has a particular genetic marker, then everyone with the marker is likely to be X. This would be flawed reasoning in any area, but what makes it bad science is that it reinforces the belief in the existence of X—in this case, race as a biological category. Warren’s video will hardly convince a Trump voter, who will see only a woman who feels that she has to prove something. Trump himself has already walked back his promise of a million-dollar charity donation. Warren, meanwhile, has allowed herself to be dragged into a conversation based on an outdated, harmful concept of racial blood—one that promotes the pernicious idea of biological differences among people—and she has pulled her supporters right along with her."
   545. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: October 16, 2018 at 06:07 PM (#5768057)
527- it tells me you are committed to a hyperbolic response based on limited facts - she isn’t claiming to be Indian now, just that there was a basis for her family lore, and she did yet while releasing a video about speaking with her conservative relatives. The point is to put it to bed for 2020. I am skeptical it is or will be effective but it’s not crazy or fatal.


Put it to bed? She poured gas on it and lit a match. How do you folks not see that? It's laughable. If I was 1/1024 black looking the way I did and I made ANY claim in my professional life that utilized that 1/1024 I'd hope to be mocked and shamed endlessly. Cause I'm not black, ya know? I'm not even close. Even if I was 1/1024, which hey, many whites are finding out they are, (no ####...) nobody in the world is going to look at me and think anything but white guy.

It's telling that when you google "Elizabeth Warren 1st Minority Faculty" you get results slamming her from the Boston Globe, (centrist), NRO, (duh) and The Intercept (possibly closer to NRO than the center they are so far left).

People of all political persuasions think she's full of ####, not Native blood.

This would be flawed reasoning in any area, but what makes it bad science is that it reinforces the belief in the existence of X—in this case, race as a biological category. Warren’s video will hardly convince a Trump voter, who will see only a woman who feels that she has to prove something. Trump himself has already walked back his promise of a million-dollar charity donation. Warren, meanwhile, has allowed herself to be dragged into a conversation based on an outdated, harmful concept of racial blood—one that promotes the pernicious idea of biological differences among people—and she has pulled her supporters right along with her."


She looks white is an easier way of saying that. And any Trump voter, and many in the middle (and left as we see) will laugh at her, as they should.

From the intercept:

whether or not Warren has some Native ancestry has never been the basis of any legitimate concern, and her video failed to address the only action for which she needs to answer: her role in enabling Harvard Law School to hold her out as a diversity hire.


To your average lower middle class white person with a HS degree you know how ####### bad that looks? It suggests that if you're an elite liberal you get to make the rules up as you go along. It's seriously almost every stupid overplayed alt-right meme about the Left made real.
   546. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 16, 2018 at 06:09 PM (#5768059)
537: She’s better than average for a Democratic senator. I just happen to prefer the more left-wing candidates.
   547. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 16, 2018 at 06:11 PM (#5768060)
Apologized? Quite the opposite, AFAIK. You got a link to this "apology"?


Here ya go.
   548. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 16, 2018 at 06:12 PM (#5768061)
Worst song in history. THE WORST.


To Sir, with Love!
   549. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 16, 2018 at 06:13 PM (#5768062)
WASHINGTON (AP) — Trump tells AP that Saudi Arabia being blamed for missing journalist is another case of ‘guilty until proven innocent’

Look what we have wrought.
   550. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 16, 2018 at 06:17 PM (#5768064)
To clear up any confusion on my 543: That’s Keith Ellison’s ex-wife who has MS, not Keith himself. (Though, not sure, would an MS diagnosis scare people from voting for you? I dunno.)
   551. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: October 16, 2018 at 06:19 PM (#5768069)
I agree so ####### much with pretty much every point in this Intercept article, not only did Warren disgrace herself, she disgraced the entire notion of affirmative action.

According to a much-cited investigation by the Boston Globe, Warren consistently checked “white” on personnel forms throughout her career, including in 1981, 1985, and 1998 while employed at the University of Texas. But in the 1986-1987 edition of the Association of American Law School’s directory and eight subsequent editions, Warren listed herself as a minority. She began identifying as Native American on personnel forms three years into her post at the University of Pennsylvania. And while multiple professors have attested to the fact that Warren was considered white during the hiring process at Harvard University, in 1995 she self-identified as Native American, and the school’s statistics were updated to reflect as much. Harvard recorded Warren as Native American from 1995 to 2004.

Warren now claims that while her self-identification was insufficiently nuanced, she wasn’t being dishonest about her heritage, citing her genetic test and family history as proof. But by focusing on the hereditary aspects of identity, rather than the cultural or experiential ones, Warren undermines the stated objectives of diversity programs


t’s hard to see how Warren’s minuscule amount of Native American DNA, even coupled with her family lore, furthers diversity objectives. She was not raised with Native American traditions and has not demonstrated any particular experience as a Cherokee woman.

Warren’s minuscule amount of Native American DNA does nothing to further diversity objectives.
Although a person’s appearance is not dispositive of their ethnicity, how a person is publicly perceived does affect whether they suffer discrimination. And in turn, whether a person experiences discrimination affects whether they deserve to benefit from the equalizing effects of affirmative action programs. Discrimination is hard to quantify, and it operates on a systemic level, as well as an individual one. But if Warren has been perceived as white over the course of her life, it’s difficult to credibly argue that she should be the beneficiary of a program intended to level a playing field made uneven by discrimination on the basis of identity.


Again, she's white. In appearance, in history, in family. White. Her applying for jobs as anything but white is a joke and undermines all of us looking for more equal outcomes (and opportunity) in society.
   552. Count Posted: October 16, 2018 at 06:21 PM (#5768072)
I might be wrong about the apology- couldn’t find anything after quick googling, and it is probably closer to her explaining the context than any apology (afaik she has maintained she never said she was Indian for professional advantage, and there’s no evidence she has). I do think it was inappropriate to list herself in a directory just because her lived experience was very likely far removed from a Cherokee regardless of what her family lore and DNA say.

545- I get (and enjoy) that your default style is hyperbolic outrage, but it’s not uncommon for people to think or say they are part Indian, particularly people from Oklahoma. Again, I do not think it was good for her to do it even in the fairly minor way she did, but your reaction is way over the top.
   553. Count Posted: October 16, 2018 at 06:23 PM (#5768073)
551- there’s no evidence she applied for jobs as anything but white, and iirc any application where she was given the option she either selected white or not a minority.
   554. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 16, 2018 at 06:23 PM (#5768074)
527- it tells me you are committed to a hyperbolic response based on limited facts - she isn’t claiming to be Indian now, just that there was a basis for her family lore, and she did yet while releasing a video about speaking with her conservative relatives. The point is to put it to bed for 2020. I am skeptical it is or will be effective but it’s not crazy or fatal.

Put it to bed? She poured gas on it and lit a match. How do you folks not see that? It's laughable. If I was 1/1024 black looking the way I did and I made ANY claim in my professional life that utilized that 1/1024 I'd hope to be mocked and shamed endlessly. Cause I'm not black, ya know? I'm not even close. Even if I was 1/1024, which hey, many whites are finding out they are, (no ####...) nobody in the world is going to look at me and think anything but white guy.

So what are you saying? That you wouldn't vote for Warren in the primaries? Understood. I might not either, if some better candidate came along.

Or are you saying that one line on a form 30 years ago would cause you to vote for Trump over her in the general election, or sit out the election if she were to be nominated?
   555. Omineca Greg Posted: October 16, 2018 at 06:25 PM (#5768076)
To Sir, with Love!

Nah, "To Sir, with Love" isn't even Lulu's worst song.
   556. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: October 16, 2018 at 06:34 PM (#5768081)
545- I get (and enjoy) that your default style is hyperbolic outrage, but it’s not uncommon for people to think or say they are part Indian, particularly people from Oklahoma. Again, I do not think it was good for her to do it even in the fairly minor way she did, but your reaction is way over the top.


I'd like to win some elections before the US turns into China West. Morons like Warren claiming they are minorities will be RUTHLESSLY exploited by every Russian bot on the 'Net tonight and every ####### day until election day. No, it's not going to make any Democrat vote GOP, but you know what it will do is fire up the GOP base to come out and I got more faith in their base than ours. Their base is older, whiter and richer and for those reasons much more likely to vote. Warren just stirred that Deplorable nest.


   557. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 16, 2018 at 06:36 PM (#5768084)
You’ve got four notes in your whole range

I've never been a Sinatra worshipper, and was more on Gary Trudeau's side there.

But.... this just ain't true.


For the record I am not a huge Sinatra fan, not my favorite music for example, but dude did have plenty of talent, including some serious acting chops.
   558. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 16, 2018 at 06:36 PM (#5768085)
would an MS diagnosis scare people from voting for you?


Ask Jed Bartlett.
   559. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 16, 2018 at 06:39 PM (#5768089)
You're going soft...


I had a good day. I'm willing to compromise and only kill 1 out of every 10, and put the others on probation with no voting rights for a decade. No need to put them in pens just yet.
   560. perros Posted: October 16, 2018 at 06:40 PM (#5768090)
This thread has #### the bed. Wallow away.
   561. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 16, 2018 at 06:42 PM (#5768095)
557: I got it myself. Would really screw up my Presidential ambitions.
   562. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: October 16, 2018 at 06:43 PM (#5768097)
This thread has #### the bed. Wallow away.


That must make you the #### cherry topping the turd sundae then.

Congrats, as always.
   563. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 16, 2018 at 06:45 PM (#5768098)
I don't understand the distaste myself.


To the cockholsters, 1) she's a Democrat, and 2) she's a woman. They'll spit and spin any number of other 'arguments' as the feel it necessary, but the reason this is being banged to death here, by the usual suspect, comes down to those two bullets.

There are some people on the left-left who believe Warren isn't pure enough. Those people are kind of stupid and crazy. There's also the fact that she's still part of the generic gerontocracy that has it's arthritic death claws wrapped around the trachea of the republic on both sides of the aisle.
   564. PreservedFish Posted: October 16, 2018 at 06:51 PM (#5768102)
I don't understand the [Warren] distaste myself.


The whole Native Indian thing is silly and doesn't reflect well on her. But it's a sideshow. It's doesn't seem like a critical piece to understanding her personality. And I'm bound to agree with a high percentage of her policies.

I mean, to be clear, as long as Trump is on the ballot I'm guaranteed to be comparatively ecstatic about the D candidate. Eliot Spitzer? Al Sharpton? Oprah? Mark Zuckerberg? Sure. Any of them. Walter Mondale is still alive, he'd have my vote.
   565. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: October 16, 2018 at 06:56 PM (#5768105)
I mean, to be clear, as long as Trump is on the ballot I'm guaranteed to be comparatively ecstatic about the D candidate. Eliot Spitzer? Al Sharpton? Oprah? Mark Zuckerberg? Sure. Any of them. Walter Mondale is still alive, he'd have my vote.


This...sadly
   566. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 16, 2018 at 07:01 PM (#5768109)
Second least surprising news of the day, after the Turtle's announcement that he may have to slash entitlements in the wake of a growing budget deficit: Trump says don't blame him if Republicans lose the House.
   567. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 16, 2018 at 07:01 PM (#5768110)
There's also the fact that she's still part of the generic gerontocracy that has it's arthritic death claws wrapped around the trachea of the republic on both sides of the aisle.


While her age is not ideal this is not it for me. Personally I don't have any distaste for Warren, she doesn't doesn't excite me. I think most of my problem with her is I know a bunch of folks that are over the moon about her and have been seemingly forever, and my reflexive response (absent anything from her that excites me) is to be unimpressed.

However, I honestly have not bothered spending more than a few seconds caring about the 2020 nomination race. After the midterms I will start to pay a bit more attention, and when they start publicly running, when the herds of Democratic candidates stretch as far as the eyes can see, then I will start to actively evaluate some of them.
   568. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 16, 2018 at 07:03 PM (#5768112)
Again, she's white. In appearance, in history, in family. White. Her applying for jobs as anything but white is a joke and undermines all of us looking for more equal outcomes (and opportunity) in society.

As noted elsewhere: Elizabeth Warren, 99.9% White; Ivory Soap, Only 99.44% Pure. Yet, Warren believed that was sufficient to be Native American for professional purposes. It's an easily-understood issue that leaves Warren looking ridiculous, and faced with the unpalatable options of ignoring it or trying to spin a more favorable interpretation, Warren has veered aimlessly back-and-forth. Even with a cooperative media, her latest effort left her worse off.
   569. BDC Posted: October 16, 2018 at 07:08 PM (#5768115)
Strategically speaking, if you're one of the fiendish Democratic nominating cabal, Warren : HRC :: Tsongas : Dukakis. You just know it's a losing proposition.

Ideologically speaking, Warren is fine with me, though I would seriously vote for Ted Cruz over Donald Trump, so you have to consider the context.

Historically speaking, Warren seems to me a "my turn" candidate, and Republicans have tended to do better with those than Democrats have. LBJ was the last such Democrat to win an election, and he was already President. Meanwhile the Republicans have won with Nixon, Reagan, and 41; Bush 43 was a comparative fresh face for them. Mondale, Gore, Kerry, and HRC were also losing propositions.
   570. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 16, 2018 at 07:10 PM (#5768116)
I mean, to be clear, as long as Trump is on the ballot I'm guaranteed to be comparatively ecstatic about the D candidate. Eliot Spitzer? Al Sharpton? Oprah? Mark Zuckerberg? Sure. Any of them. Walter Mondale is still alive, he'd have my vote.

I don't doubt that - the point is that others may find Warren's phony claim to be Native American more significant than you, or partisan Democrats in general. But run her anyway, you don't really want those votes.
   571. perros Posted: October 16, 2018 at 07:13 PM (#5768126)

Congrats, as always


When you took that dump in the desert, it assumed your identity and left you to dry up and blow away.
   572. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 16, 2018 at 07:21 PM (#5768134)
My God! WTF is wrong with this POS inhabiting the Oval Office?

President Donald Trump Tuesday criticized rapidly mounting global condemnation of Saudi Arabia over the mystery of missing journalist Jamal Khashoggi, warning of a rush to judgment and echoing the Saudis’ request for patience.

In an interview with The Associated Press, Trump compared the case of Khashoggi, who Turkish officials have said was murdered in the Saudis’ Istanbul consulate, to the allegations of sexual assault leveled against Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh during his confirmation hearing.


“I think we have to find out what happened first,” Trump said. “Here we go again with, you know, you’re guilty until proven innocent. I don’t like that. We just went through that with Justice Kavanaugh and he was innocent all the way as far as I’m concerned.”


Setting aside the fact that he is perhaps the biggest purveyor of guilty until proven innocent, WTF is his deal with siding with ruthless dictators in the face of cold hard facts and public and world consensus (not to mention his own intelligence agencies and members of Congress from his own party)? Is there anybody besides Trump who doesn't believe SA killed Khashoggi, whether it was pre-meditated or just an accidental side effect of their interrogation? The man went into the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul and was never seen again. I mean, OK, maybe he got locked in the basement supply closet searching for the secret tunnel to Citizens Bank Park, but if SA were truly innocent, one would think they would have checked that by now.

Clapper, can you honestly say that this man as the head of your party isn't a daily embarrassment?
   573. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 16, 2018 at 07:25 PM (#5768136)
The whole Native Indian thing is silly and doesn't reflect well on her. But it's a sideshow.


Well, yeah. But let's be clear why the "whole Native Indian thing" was thrown out there in the first place. To imply that Warren is somehow undeserving of her status and ambitions. The same reason the same people ran up the "affirmative action hire" bullshit about Obama and law school (much less the Presidency.) The same reason the same people ran up the "she married into power" bullshit about Hillary Clinton. On the one hand, they're Democrats, so the party of nihilism and hatred must attack them constantly, for fear of exposing the lack of any functional policy or program at the heart of their undead horror show. On the other hand, they're women, or black, and the American right must at every juncture undermine any "other" that has any modicum of success by implying that it was given rather than earned.
   574. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 16, 2018 at 07:27 PM (#5768139)
Setting aside the fact that he is perhaps the biggest purveyor of guilty until proven innocent, WTF is his deal with siding with ruthless dictators


Well, as I noted in 2015. He's a fascist. Fascists side with their ideological kin. Trump sides with brutal dictators and authoritarian strong men for the same reason Mussolini sidled up to Hitler. Like loves like.
   575. Count Posted: October 16, 2018 at 07:27 PM (#5768140)
FWIW the Bernie / Warren divide is that Bernie is more charismatic and Warren is more moderate and technocratic (and accomplished, I would say) and a lot less charismatic. They’re both old. I don’t love any of the dozens of current candidates, there’s no Obama type figure who I deeply admire (even though basically any candidate will have further left / better from my POV positions than Obama did given the climate).
   576. BrianBrianson Posted: October 16, 2018 at 07:37 PM (#5768144)
   577. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 16, 2018 at 07:38 PM (#5768145)
Well, as I noted in 2015. He's a fascist. Fascists side with their ideological kin. Trump sides with brutal dictators and authoritarian strong men for the same reason Mussolini sidled up to Hitler. Like loves like.


Here's the thing. Up until Trump, there has never been a President for whom anyone could credibly express doubt as to whether they truly loved this country. I had a lot of issues with Bush. Certainly many of our friends on the right had issues with Obama and Clinton. But I doubt any of them, and certainly not me, had any doubts about their patriotism, and that they were acting in good faith for what they believed was best for this country. I have serious doubts as to whether Trump is acting in what he thinks are the best interests of this country. And I doubt he cares what they are. Whatever makes him money, keeps him in power, and keeps him out of jail is where he goes.
   578. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 16, 2018 at 07:43 PM (#5768151)
‘We’re getting our asses kicked’: Republicans massively out-raised in election homestretch

Democratic challengers outraised Republican House incumbents in 92 House districts in the last three months — a staggering mismatch that boosts the odds of a GOP washout in November.

There is no historical precedent for financing this broad and deep for congressional challengers. About half of the 92 GOP incumbents are protecting battleground districts, and some of them posted personal-record fundraising totals in the third quarter of 2018 — but they still found themselves swamped by a combination of incandescent online fundraising for Democrats and bigger donors spreading money to challengers around the country, as 61 Democrats raised over $1 million. Fifty-one House Republicans were outraised at least 2-to-1, according to POLITICO’s analysis of the latest Federal Election Commission filings, while 71 were outspent by their challenger. Only five Democratic House incumbents were outraised.


Careful readers will remember that I introduced one of those five Republicans upthread... the stalker one who finished last in a council race that also included an opponent who dressed like a chicken.
   579. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 16, 2018 at 07:43 PM (#5768152)
575: Bernie Sanders is a socialist. Well, at least he says he is.

Elizabeth Warren on the other hand...

I love capitalism. I love markets. I think markets really are terrific at what they do. They are fabulous at producing goods and services, at giving people who've got some gumption, who've got a good idea, who are willing to work longer or harder than other people real opportunities -- when markets are level, when they're honest markets.

and

twitter.com/katielannan/status/1018852303212896257?lang=en
@katielannan
“I am a capitalist to my bones,” Sen. Warren tells New England Council, one of several instances this morning where she’s highlighted her belief in capitalism and markets while talking bankruptcy policy

It’s not about tone, it’s about content.
   580. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 16, 2018 at 07:45 PM (#5768154)
They accept the validity of DNA tests as long as it isn't for the purposes of declaring someone to have native american ancestry. Let's dispense with the ellipses when I took the trouble to excerpt the whole relevant section:

Using a DNA test to lay claim to any connection to the Cherokee Nation or any tribal nation, even vaguely, is inappropriate and wrong.

Yeah, you bolded this before. But the term used is again "connection," not "ancestry."


Is this one of your typically ham-fisted attempts at pretending to be a lawyer by wallowing in empty meaningless pedantry in an attempt to distract from your general dipshittery? “Oh Chief Running Gel said DNA tests are acceptable to determine ancestry but not connection!”

They're taking no position against Warren having "native american ancestry", they're taking a position that having "native american ancestry" (distant NA ancestor) doesn't automatically qualify her as having any connection to Cherokee Nation.


They didn’t say “doesn’t automatically qualify”, they said it’s inapporiate and wrong, even vaguely. It’s right there. They don’t accept genetic data to join Club Red. I don’t care, they’re a club and they can determine membership. If they want to say Clayton Moore qualifies because they love the Lone Ranger that’s perfectly fine. It doesn’t change anyone’s genetics.

As previously noted, you and yours can insist fake things in your insistent tones as much as you want.


Yes Fake Lawyer, we all know what you think.



   581. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 16, 2018 at 07:51 PM (#5768158)
572 and 574-

I think it’s simpler than even that. Trump is defending the Saudis because they were nice to him. He’s questioning the media and the intelligence community because they’ve been “mean” to him. It’s that basic for him.
   582. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 16, 2018 at 07:52 PM (#5768159)
So apparently Beto is touting his crossover appeal by noting that his lifelong Republican mother is supporting him. But aside from that being really sad as an argument, it isn’t even true. (I mean, she is supporting him, but she’s not a lifelong Republican.)
   583. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 16, 2018 at 07:53 PM (#5768162)
I doubt any of them, and certainly not me, had any doubts about their patriotism, and that they were acting in good faith for what they believed was best for this country. I have serious doubts as to whether Trump is acting in what he thinks are the best interests of this country.


Trump can't formulate the question. He has no concept of "best interests of this country." Donald Trump has zero interests outside of the enrichment of himself and, by default, his children. And even with his children, his interest is not in the well being of other human beings, but only in the extension of his personal brand into the future.

Donald Trump is a fascist and a sociopath. His elevation to the "presidency" is an absolute crisis for the republic, from the moment the 2016 election was called until such time as he is defenestrated and given the Saddam send off.
   584. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 16, 2018 at 07:53 PM (#5768163)
Warren now claims that while her self-identification was insufficiently nuanced, she wasn’t being dishonest about her heritage, citing her genetic test and family history as proof. But by focusing on the hereditary aspects of identity, rather than the cultural or experiential ones, Warren undermines the stated objectives of diversity programs


So Rachel Dolezal really was black. I knew it! Take that you wack-ass crackers!
   585. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 16, 2018 at 07:54 PM (#5768165)
I am a capitalist to my bones,” Sen. Warren tells New England Council,
And Trump says that he’s a very stable genius. Don’t think we need to accept such obvious lies whether from Warren or Trump.
   586. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 16, 2018 at 07:57 PM (#5768168)
582 omg can you imagine if Trump had said something so reckless!?!?!?!?
   587. . Posted: October 16, 2018 at 08:01 PM (#5768173)
But let's be clear why the "whole Native Indian thing" was thrown out there in the first place.


It's already clear. It was "thrown out there" to show how silly modern liberalism and identity politics are. It very much hit its mark.
   588. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 16, 2018 at 08:02 PM (#5768176)
So apparently Beto is touting his crossover appeal by noting that his lifelong Republican mother is supporting him. But aside from that being really sad as an argument, it isn’t even true. (I mean, she is supporting him, but she’s not a lifelong Republican.)


Unfortunately, Cruz's response was worse..

He said he's not sure if he WANTS his dad's support, what with him possibly being involved in the Kennedy assassination.
   589. . Posted: October 16, 2018 at 08:03 PM (#5768178)
Is this one of your typically ham-fisted attempts at pretending to be a lawyer by wallowing in empty meaningless pedantry in an attempt to distract from your general dipshittery?


No, it's continuing to point out how ridiculous your smear was ... and now it's becoming showing how ridiculous you are for doubling down on the smear.

You claimed the Cherokees renounced the validity of all DNA tests. That was false. It remains false despite your continued bleating and clownish insults.
   590. Lassus Posted: October 16, 2018 at 08:04 PM (#5768179)
I think it’s simpler than even that. Trump is defending the Saudis because they were nice to him. He’s questioning the media and the intelligence community because they’ve been “mean” to him. It’s that basic for him.

This is a proper and delicious almond from Davo.
   591. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 16, 2018 at 08:05 PM (#5768182)
Another example of how the US is special because we care about life

E.P.A. Places the Head of Its Office of Children’s Health on Leave

The Environmental Protection Agency on Tuesday placed the head of its Office of Children’s Health Protection on administrative leave, an unusual move that appeared to reflect an effort to minimize the role of the office.

Dr. Ruth Etzel, a pediatrician and epidemiologist who has been a leader in children’s environmental health for 30 years, joined the E.P.A. in 2015 after having served as a senior officer for environmental health research at the World Health Organization. She was placed on administrative leave late Tuesday and asked to hand over her badge, keys and cellphone, according to an E.P.A. official familiar with the decision who was not authorized to discuss the move and who asked not to be identified.

The official said Dr. Etzel was not facing disciplinary action and would continue to receive pay and benefits. No explanation was offered to the staff on Tuesday.

An E.P.A. spokesman, John Konkus, declined to give a reason for the administrative leave.

Four people within the E.P.A. and a dozen or so who work closely with the agency said that Dr. Etzel’s dismissal was one of several recent developments that have slowed the work of her department, the Office of Children’s Health Protection. Created by President Bill Clinton in 1997, it advises the E.P.A. leadership on the specific health and environmental-protection needs of children, which often leads to tougher or more stringent regulatory standards than those that might be required for adults.


I just watched an interview with her. She was placed on leave just prior to submitting a report on how the US could and should take measures to protect children from lead contamination. That report is now indefinitely on leave as well.
   592. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 16, 2018 at 08:07 PM (#5768185)
I must admit, I like those Linklater produced spots for that Whatever-PAC...

Taaayyyeddd. Cum 'awwwhn, Taayed.
   593. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: October 16, 2018 at 08:14 PM (#5768192)
I just watched an interview with her. She was placed on leave just prior to submitting a report on how the US could and should take measures to protect children from lead contamination. That report is now indefinitely on leave as well.



When a child eats lead, is that a voluntary exchange or not? Asking for an acquaintance.
   594. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 16, 2018 at 08:17 PM (#5768196)
Is this one of your typically ham-fisted attempts at pretending to be a lawyer by wallowing in empty meaningless pedantry in an attempt to distract from your general dipshittery?


No, it's continuing to point out how ridiculous your smear was ... and now it's becoming showing how ridiculous you are for doubling down on the smear.


It isn’t a smear. You really are that dumb.

You claimed the Cherokees renounced the validity of all DNA tests.


So that’s what you’re going to hide behind now hmmm? That what I *really* said was that the official opinion of Chief Press Release is that DNA can’t be tested, thst it can’t match a person to their genetic material, that evolution by common descent is not supported by genetics because DNA can’t be tested, or that OJ Simpson really was framed by fake DNA? That I wasn’t talking about DNA in the context of, you know, the DNA testing specifically being discussed in this thread?

It’s funny, you really do straddle the line between “surely he can’t be thst stupid” and “surely he can’t be so dishonest”.
   595. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 16, 2018 at 08:17 PM (#5768199)
@meganrcassidy
SF police say the closure of #Backpage has pushed sex trafficking, pimping back out onto the streets. Reported crimes have tripled over the previous year

@nkjemisim
“The very bill that was supposed to stop trafficking has quite literally given formerly irrelevant traffickers new life”

LIKE. SEX. WORKERS. TOLD. YOU. IT. WOULD.

Iirc that bill passed the Senate like 98-2, cuz no one wanted to be the senator who voted against a bill to stop sex trafficking (even Bernie voted for it)...and now we’re seeing the predictable result.

Prostitution is obviously a terrible thing that shouldn’t exist, but since it does we ought to listen to the female workers at risk, ya know?
   596. PreservedFish Posted: October 16, 2018 at 08:18 PM (#5768202)
Trump can't formulate the question. He has no concept of "best interests of this country." Donald Trump has zero interests outside of the enrichment of himself and, by default, his children.


Agreed, but I think that he would also take it as self-evident that his own interests and the country's interests are identical.
   597. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: October 16, 2018 at 08:20 PM (#5768204)
Yeah, this one's pretty good.

I have to say, Oleaginous Ted going down is #3 on my wish list, right behind the Democrats taking the House and Dana Rohrabacher getting a chance to take that long, all-expenses-paid vacation to Moscow he's been dreaming about ...
   598. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: October 16, 2018 at 08:22 PM (#5768209)
@meganrcassidy
SF police say the closure of #Backpage has pushed sex trafficking, pimping back out onto the streets. Reported crimes have tripled over the previous year


Congrats, Kamala Harris!
   599. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 16, 2018 at 08:24 PM (#5768217)
Trump can't formulate the question. He has no concept of "best interests of this country." Donald Trump has zero interests outside of the enrichment of himself and, by default, his children.

Agreed, but I think that he would also take it as self-evident that his own interests and the country's interests are identical.


Plenty of people of his status would disagree. He likes to think he has more in common with the foreign dictators he clearly admires than he does with you smelly proles who he holds in obvious contempt. You don’t see him stiffing Putin on a contract. He’s here to stuff his pockets as fast as he can, he doesn’t have to live with the consequences of his grifting like you will.
   600. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 16, 2018 at 08:31 PM (#5768241)
Flip.
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