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Monday, October 15, 2018

OTP 2018 October 15: The shift in focus from sport to politics

Since I’m hinting at it, here’s my shameless plug: if you can sit through four hours of football and its stoppage time, you can’t justify calling baseball boring. October belongs to America’s pastime. I feel that this whole landscape will look different a decade from now, with football at the lower half of the totem pole.

My opinion isn’t entirely biased. This issue with politics bleeding into the discussion is a serious crutch for an otherwise praised NFL, and until that’s no longer a factor, people are going to shift away. The NBA waters are nice these days too, I’m hearing.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 15, 2018 at 08:26 AM | 1522 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off topic, politics

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   901. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:14 PM (#5769213)
Divorce records: No claim MN AG candidate Keith Ellison abused ex-wife

U.S. Rep. Keith Ellison's divorce records were unsealed by a court order Wednesday, detailing the ending of a troubled marriage and later disagreements over spousal support.

The records involve Ellison's 2012 divorce from ex-wife Kim Ellison, a Minneapolis School Board member. They lack any allegation that the Democratic attorney general candidate was abusive toward his then-wife.

The divorce file was made public after the Star Tribune newspaper and conservative news site Alpha News went to court in September to unseal the records, arguing it was a matter of public interest, given his current campaign.
   902. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:17 PM (#5769217)
538 has their Gov ratings up - Odds Are, Your Next Governor Will Be A Democrat

And in FiveThirtyEight’s gubernatorial forecasts, which we (finally!) launched on Wednesday, the gubernatorial news is good for Democrats. They are projected to wind up with governorships in states representing about 60 percent of the U.S. population, compared with 40 percent for Republicans.
   903. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:20 PM (#5769219)
Divorce records: No claim MN AG candidate Keith Ellison abused ex-wife


They've literally devolved into "have you stopped beating your wife?"
   904. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:22 PM (#5769223)


BS. The modern left has become significantly more radical on immigration, for example, since the election of Agent Orange. And on a guy making a pass at a woman/sexual harassment/rape, for another example.

So have the people here purporting not to have.

To start regaining a foothold in sanity, it's best to dispense with the nonsense.


Ummm, no.

My view on immigration policy is the same as it ever was. More of it and easier more of it and paths to citizenship to any already in the US.

It's a fruitless effort, of course - because your confusion runs too deep for me to fix, but what has changed?

5 years ago, the legislation/policy on the table was not one I particularly wanted - but would have been willing to support as a (barely) reasonable even if (significantly) imperfect compromise. The Gang of Eight bill would have been better than the status quo. Not a lot better, but at least it included a (too long, expensive, and hoop-laden) path to citizenship.

Today? I am arguing against slashing immigration rates, slashing refugee acceptance, and making it ironclad policy to - in all instances and cases - separate kids from their family and lock them in cages.

If I had a magic wand - the policy I would have written 5 years ago... 10 years ago... etc is the same one I'd write today.

   905. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:23 PM (#5769225)
903- 2 separate women—neither of whom was the woman he divorced—have accused Ellison of abuse. I didn’t think exploring the circumstances of his divorce were at all out of line, to be honest.

(I’m in Minnesota, this newest report legitimately eases my concerns in voting for him.)
   906. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:26 PM (#5769228)
Divorce records: No claim MN AG candidate Keith Ellison abused ex-wife

They've literally devolved into "have you stopped beating your wife?"


Indeed - more than having no claims of abuse against Keith Ellison, the records actually do say:

Although the divorce proceedings began in 2010, Keith Ellison didn’t raise his allegation of abuse until 2015. That’s when Kim Ellison was seeking additional spousal maintenance and argued that her ex-husband had failed to provide her health insurance as agreed. Kim Ellison was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis before their divorce.

Keith Ellison argued his ex-wife wasn’t credible, going on to say that Kim Ellison “hit me too many times to mention” during their marriage, once bit him on the arm and threatened to stab him.
   907. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:26 PM (#5769229)

The ads are an insult to thinking people's intelligence
Don't you mean that the taxes are an insult to thinking people's intelligence? There is no legitimate justification for such a tax. Localities have no business trying to combat obesity, and the only valid decision-making on the issue is individual.
   908. perros Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:27 PM (#5769231)
The pigs are going to out as pigs, regardless. The sheep are going to sheep, regardless. If the choice is submit to evil, or hem and haw to try to soften it's blow. Well. I'd rather die standing.


I get extraordinarily angry not so much at the easily identifiable evil, but the ho-hum acceptance of it, both the "politics disgusts me because it's not nice enough" and "if we're calm and rational enough, the other side has to see our merits and give in". Definitely including the "history bends towards justice" or some other claptrap rich people say.

And honestly, I try to back-burner the "rich white men are evil" rhetoric because it becomes an intrinsic character argument rather than a criticsl historical one, but I am not very patient in this little monoculture that's always leaned right/libertarian in attitude. One of the reasons the lounge exists is because of the cavalier misogyny (and racism) on the mainland that's met with a "live and let live" attitude. It's not that minorities and women are above criticism, but in this group, there are zero minorities and women regulars. So when the group lets Liz Warren have it, they naturally fall into the way the dominant culture lets her have it, with a certain sneering nastiness barely concealed.

And while I'm a hypocrite with a guilty conscience (amongst other things), the source of the anger is connection with the people being injured and killed by that casual, everyday American violence encoded in the superstructure, normalized, unrecognized, mocked, ridiculed, etc. It's like if you attacked a member of my immediate family if you join in.

I still believe #### is pretty hopeless -- that what the scientific, historical evidence says about the species, the planet, the universe -- but the end of hope in many ways clears one to join the fight. There's little to lose that's not already lost, and much to gain in the pursuit of liberty, equality, and justice, for all.

   909. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:29 PM (#5769234)
Definitely including the "history bends towards justice" or some other claptrap rich people Martin Luther King Jr. said.
FIFY.
   910. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:31 PM (#5769235)
2 separate women—neither of whom was the woman he divorced—have accused Ellison of abuse. I didn’t think exploring the circumstances of his divorce were at all out of line, to be honest.


Okay. Didn't know that.
   911. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:33 PM (#5769238)

Okay. Didn't know that.
If only you would adopt Ray's position of not commenting on things he knows nothing about.
   912. perros Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:33 PM (#5769239)
Holding Liz Warren and Keith Ellison to a higher standard than we hold white male politicians doesn't wash. I appreciate Davo's Current Affairs link, and his participation, but the left MUST ditch its purist stance if it wants to win a damned thing.
   913. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:33 PM (#5769240)
Definitely including the "history bends towards justice" or some other claptrap rich people say.


Sigh. This is not what was said (well I am sure some have said it). But sure be angry at your misunderstanding, I am sure it is good for you.
   914. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:35 PM (#5769241)
@RachelHeldEvans
I find it maddening that the John Pipers and Wayne Grudems of this world just carry on with their condemnation of gay people and women pastors but can’t bring themselves to say an ill word against a man who calls women pigs and dogs and brags about grabbing them by the #####.

...as if the nearly unanimous, wholesale embrace of this man (who claims he has never asked God for forgiveness yet has been declared a Christian anyway) is not affecting the millions of young evangelical men and women who are watching for moral and ethical cues.

It doesn’t take a lick of courage to rail against the people your congregation already dislikes, but to challenge its overwhelming support of Trump, to say that how he treats women, POC, immigrants, etc, is unacceptable, would require a little prophetic fortitude.

But this would require abandoning a pillar of white American evangelicalism: the belief that “the world” - those other people out there - are the ones who are lost and confused, and “we” - the enlightened, chosen few - have it all figured out.

I was raised evangelical. I ate, drank, and slept evangelical culture. Evangelicals introduced me to Jesus. And every day I rage and grieve because now it all seems like one big lie I was stupid enough to fall for.
   915. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:35 PM (#5769242)
The ads are an insult to thinking people's intelligence

Don't you mean that the taxes are an insult to thinking people's intelligence?


Only if they’re described as stealing ones life at gunpoint, the way a lunatic would.
   916. perros Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:38 PM (#5769243)
Martin Luther King Jr. said.


His movement relied upon Chritianity and white liberals for success. When he expanded out from that base to challenge capitalism home and abroad, he was soon dead as a ####### doornail. And Jim Crow still exists.

Time to bury Saint Martin and embrace his darker side as part of a complete, historical picture.
   917. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:39 PM (#5769245)
Don't you mean that the taxes are an insult to thinking people's intelligence? There is no legitimate justification for such a tax. Localities have no business trying to combat obesity, and the only valid decision-making on the issue is individual.


Nonsense, of course they do.

For one thing, specific to Chicago - the public pension and retiree benefit costs most certainly do include the 'costs' of obesity. For another - Stroger hospital and other public healthcare facilities get pretty significant funding from local government. Finally, there are certainly elements of obesity - from the size of train car seats to infrastructure weight limits - that have costs.

Beyond that, though - all the things a modern urban area require to exist as a modern area have to be funded somehow. Gotta tax something - and my preference would be to tax those things that aren't really good for me anyway AND have no shortage of similar options that are not taxed at the same rate.
   918. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:41 PM (#5769246)
876- Trump *voters* I meant. Are there any of those either?

Clapper. TGF seems to have vanished, for fear of being outed as a Proud Boy or something. Former BTF personalities Joey B. and Kehoskie absolutely voted for the fascist. Happily. Ray probably pulled a 3P level in New York because it was a meaningless gesture that lets him continue to tell himself that he's not *really* a republican, even though he clearly is. If he voted in Ohio or Florida, he'd vote R down the line. David voted Libertarian. Who the hell knows what the voices in Dan's head said do that day.

snapper rhymes with Clapper in more ways than one.
   919. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:43 PM (#5769248)
912: I love you, Perros, but we have to draw a line somewhere, and I’d say “wifebeater”/“rapist” is a pretty good place to start.

Get the sexual predators out of positions of power.
   920. RoyalFlush Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:44 PM (#5769249)
Sure, but (A) they weren't innocent; and (B) the city had no moral obligation to pay them a bunch of money, and properly didn't, until DeBlasio virtue signaled with other peoples' money.


How were the CP5 actually "not innocent" of the crimes they were accused when someone else confessed?
   921. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:45 PM (#5769250)
Snapper posts about film noir in the other OT thread and is cool.
   922. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:46 PM (#5769252)
Martin Luther King Jr. said.

His movement relied upon Chritianity and white liberals for success. When he expanded out from that base to challenge capitalism home and abroad, he was soon dead as a ####### doornail. And Jim Crow still exists.

Time to bury Saint Martin and embrace his darker side as part of a complete, historical picture.


Gandhi and Mandela want to have words with you. Non-violent words.
   923. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:47 PM (#5769254)
It’s the only way. Do not resist evil.
   924. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:49 PM (#5769256)
It’s the only way. Do not resist evil.


Your historical understanding is noted.
   925. McCoy Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:52 PM (#5769259)
538 has their Gov ratings up - Odds Are, Your Next Governor Will Be A Democrat

And in FiveThirtyEight’s gubernatorial forecasts, which we (finally!) launched on Wednesday, the gubernatorial news is good for Democrats. They are projected to wind up with governorships in states representing about 60 percent of the U.S. population, compared with 40 percent for Republicans.


Kind of a silly distinction.
   926. perros Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:54 PM (#5769263)
Gandhi and Mandela want to have words with you. Non-violent words.


Hardly saints, either, until imprisoned and/or dead. Look up Umkhonto we Sizwe, or even the current ANC logo.

And Gandhi wasn't Ben Kingsley in drag.
   927. BDC Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:55 PM (#5769264)
Indeed, other jurisdictions that have enacted such taxes, including Berkeley, California, saw consumption of sugar-sweetened beverages decrease after the start of a local sugary-beverage tax. Meanwhile, consumption of untaxed drinks (including water) went up


About 12 years ago, in Harrisburg PA, I met a distinguished-looking guy at the Civil War Museum and we chatted for a bit about the weather or whatever. Somebody walked by and addressed him as "Governor" and I looked at the name-tag he was wearing. I looked him up later on, and sure enough George Leader had been governor of Pennsylvania in the 1950s, the "boy governor" whose major new idea was to tax soda pop by, I think, a nickel a bottle – back when a bottle cost what, a dime? This was an idea way ahead of its time, but it would have funded parks and education and probably ponies for everybody, as well as having some public-health benefit. And for those who still liked their soda, it was only a nickel.

Anyway, the soda tax got shot down and Leader served only one term, IIRC. He passed away five years ago and should be remembered better at junctures like this.
   928. perros Posted: October 17, 2018 at 05:01 PM (#5769267)
I’d say “wifebeater”/“rapist” is a pretty good place to start.


Again with the rightwing tslking points.

When Tom Carper resigns, so should Keith Ellison. And Tom Carper should resign after Jim Jordan. It's hardly a coincidence the Warrens and Ellisons are under attack by good liberals and nice Christians.
   929. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 05:03 PM (#5769269)
How were the CP5 actually "not innocent" of the crimes they were accused when someone else confessed?
They were not guilty of the attack on the Central Park Jogger. They were guilty of assaulting (not nearly to the same level of seriousness as the CPJ) and robbing other people in the park that night.


EDIT: Or, I should say, in case FLTB jumps in here in a sad attempt to score points, that there was no evidence, other than shoddy confessions, that they were part of the attack on the Central Park Jogger. Said confessions were inconsistent with each other's, and were the product of extended police interrogations of teenagers. Moreover, there was no forensic evidence -- and there should have been, given the viciousness of the attack -- tying them to the attack. (i.e., nothing of theirs was found at the scene, and none of her blood was found on them or their clothing.) And the one person who the forensic evidence actually did tie to the attack said that he acted alone.
   930. . Posted: October 17, 2018 at 05:08 PM (#5769272)
Definitely including the "history bends towards justice" or some other claptrap rich people say.


Uhhh ... history bending toward justice comes from Martin Luther King.

Oops, EDIT: Coke made by non-union labor to the Randian.
   931. zenbitz Posted: October 17, 2018 at 05:11 PM (#5769274)
but the left MUST ditch its purist stance if it wants to win a damned thing.


Do ya want Clintons? 'Cause that's how ya het Clintons...
   932. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 17, 2018 at 05:11 PM (#5769275)
928- All things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light.

We can’t tolerate these people—Franken, Clinton, etc—just because they help us win elections, or because the Republicans have kept fellowship with them. If the Left stands for anything, it has to stand for the victims of the ruling class.
   933. . Posted: October 17, 2018 at 05:13 PM (#5769277)
EDIT: Or, I should say, in case FLTB jumps in here in a sad attempt to score points,


No, you were fine there with the original 929. No further comment was planned, sad or otherwise.
   934. perros Posted: October 17, 2018 at 05:17 PM (#5769278)
Do ya want Clintons? 'Cause that's how ya het Clintons..


No, you get Clintons when you go for Republicans in sheep's clothing. People all buddy buddy with the Jeff Epsteins and Harvey Weinsteins. Or just plain ol' corporate predators.

Mitch McConnell sends xxxooo
   935. BrianBrianson Posted: October 17, 2018 at 05:19 PM (#5769280)
Uh, it didn't come back Indian. It came back that she's somewhere between 1/64th and 1/1024th Indian, which to pretty much everyone means "Not Indian."


We could discuss this, but the low information voters have already stopped listening, so it's politically irrelevant.

I don't much care about race, so if she's only checking the Indian box, I might call it dishonest, if she's checking both the white and Indian boxes, I think it's perfectly fine. There's no actual, objective answer about how X you have to be to check X, so whatever. I dick around with these kind of forms, and often choose "other" when I'm asked for my ethnicity, and then presented a bunch of races to choose from. My ethnicity isn't race specific. Ditto gender boxes - if they ask my gender, I'll check male, but if they ask my gender identity, I'll usually check "other" or "decline to state" or whatnot.

They are certainly distinctions with actual differences; you need to pretend they're the same so that you can conflate the two issues and fool the rubes such as Andy and BM.


If there's a reason why it's relevant whether she actually benefitted, or tried to benefit, or both, I don't see it. Nor can I recall anyone articulating it. Regardless, there's no actual evidence she did either, as far as I can see. If you squint real hard you can maybe conjure up something that looks like circumstantial evidence, but there's also circumstantial evidence she was interested in her Indian heritage for it's own sake (the cookbook thingie), so if one's worried about holding people to a standard where they need to prove their innocence, they'd happily say she's not guilty on the available evidence.

Yes, it's possible the hiring committee/dean at Harvard was aware of the index listing, but there's no actual evidence. She was a named chair at UPenn, they almost certainly already knew who she was. She was advertised as a woman but not a minority* in the Harvard Blowhard or whatever it's called when she was hired, which is evidence they didn't know at the time, albeit also weak and circumstantial. But, one can point to her later being advertised as an Indian by Harvard is evidence they were pleased about having an Indian on the faculty. Which could mean, but doesn't require, that whoever was deciding hiring had that in their thoughts. If they knew at the time, which they could have, but the meager evidence we do have suggests they didn't. Her scholarly record certainly seems compatible with poached by Harvard on merit, but that's also weak as evidence goes.

*Fun fact: In Canada, Indians, Inuit, and Metis are explicitly not visible minorities.
   936. . Posted: October 17, 2018 at 05:19 PM (#5769283)
We can’t tolerate these people—Franken, Clinton, etc—just because they help us win elections, or because the Republicans have kept fellowship with them. If the Left stands for anything, it has to stand for the victims of the ruling class.


A woman Franken clumsily tried to kiss is a "victim of the ruling class"?

That seems a bit excessive. The left hectoring Franken out of office was a sign of its faux-revolutionary idiocy, not its sympathy with "victims."
   937. perros Posted: October 17, 2018 at 05:22 PM (#5769286)
More may come out on Ellison, but what I see is a guy who got angry in your standard relationship breakups. Muslim Black guy with white wimmin. Script basically writes itself.
   938. . Posted: October 17, 2018 at 05:24 PM (#5769290)
People all buddy buddy with the Jeff Epsteins and Harvey Weinsteins.


As to Weinstein, who remains a pig, though you won't read or hear much about it in leftist organs, the criminal case against him has been plagued by police and prosecutorial misconduct and one of the three complaining witnesses has been found to have told another friend that the encounter she claimed was non-consensual was in fact consensual.(*) The prosecution withheld that evidence from the defense and the part of the case alleging her assault was thrown out.

Any time a particular crime is politicized, it has a great chance of turning out this way. See, e.g., Duke LAX. Or the child abuse hysteria of the 1980s. When will they learn?

(*) I.e., it was a false accusation. The kind that "never happens."
   939. perros Posted: October 17, 2018 at 05:24 PM (#5769291)
Should go without saying, but I'm not a liberal.
   940. Omineca Greg Posted: October 17, 2018 at 05:24 PM (#5769293)
   941. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 17, 2018 at 05:34 PM (#5769309)
The Democratic Party’s decision to continue supporting Bill Clinton, for instance, has caused way more harm than good. That this grotesque monster—a liar, an adulterer, almost certainly a rapist—keeps getting trotted out for campaign rallies and DNC speeches is so disgusting, so gross, so cynical, I can’t blame people for bowing out of politics.

It’s not just moral for Democrats to shine the light on its many sinful members; I honestly believe it’s good politics. Cuz right now voters—especially women voters—look up and see that both parties will approbrate to sexual predators so long as they bring in donors and voters. And theyre not wrong.
   942. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 17, 2018 at 05:39 PM (#5769314)
938 As to Weinstein, who remains a pig, though you won't read or hear much about it in leftist organs

Which leftist organs do you read??
   943. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 05:41 PM (#5769318)

Which leftist organs do you read??
TMI.
   944. . Posted: October 17, 2018 at 05:42 PM (#5769321)
Which leftist organs do you read??


NY Times, Vox, Kos, Jacobin, TPM. Occasional ventures to DU. Probably more I'm forgetting.

Needless to say, the Weinstein case is no longer big news in such forums, or really news at all -- even though much actual news is being made.
   945. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 05:46 PM (#5769325)
Didn't Jesus give a sermon on this very topic? "Thou shalt not endanger arms deals profits in search of justice", I think it was ...


A major evangelical leader has spoken in defense of US-Saudi relations after the apparent killing of journalist Jamal Khashoggi in a Saudi consulate, saying that America has more important things — like arms deals — to focus on.

Pat Robertson, founder of the Christian Broadcasting Network, appeared on its flagship television show The 700 Club on Monday to caution Americans against allowing the United States’ relationship with Saudi Arabia to deteriorate over Khashoggi’s death.

“For those who are screaming blood for the Saudis — look, these people are key allies,” Robertson said. While he called the faith of the Wahabists — the hardline Islamist sect to which the Saudi Royal Family belongs — “obnoxious,” he urged viewers to remember that “we’ve got an arms deal that everybody wanted a piece of…it’ll be a lot of jobs, a lot of money come to our coffers. It’s not something you want to blow up willy-nilly.”
   946. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 17, 2018 at 05:47 PM (#5769327)
Kos is a news organ?

That’s.... news...even to Kos
   947. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 17, 2018 at 05:48 PM (#5769330)
945: truly, the tribalism of the modern lefty knows no bounds.
   948. perros Posted: October 17, 2018 at 06:00 PM (#5769344)
NY Times, Vox, Kos, Jacobin, TPM.


Jacobin may qualify as left. The rest are good capitalist liberals like Warren at best.

Vox is a perfect example of careerist corporate Dems.
   949. perros Posted: October 17, 2018 at 06:02 PM (#5769347)
The Democratic Party’s decision to continue supporting Bill Clinton


Since when? They barely let him appear in public in 2016. Plus they're Democrats.

But here's the hard politicsl truth -- once you've made your bed, you sleep in it. Loyalty is important. And a political party's no church.

Churches are worse.
   950. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 06:02 PM (#5769348)
Which leftist organs do you read??

NY Times, Vox, Kos, Jacobin, TPM.


Wow, according to the "search" function, the New York Times hasn't published an article on the Weinstein case in over an hour.
   951. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 06:14 PM (#5769357)
I dick around with these kind of forms,


You should probably stop doing that, now that we're in the #MeToo era.

You mean dicker.
   952. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 06:23 PM (#5769366)
They are certainly distinctions with actual differences; you need to pretend they're the same so that you can conflate the two issues and fool the rubes such as Andy and BM.

If there's a reason why it's relevant whether she actually benefitted, or tried to benefit, or both, I don't see it. Nor can I recall anyone articulating it. Regardless, there's no actual evidence she did either, as far as I can see. If you squint real hard you can maybe conjure up something that looks like circumstantial evidence, but there's also circumstantial evidence she was interested in her Indian heritage for it's own sake (the cookbook thingie), so if one's worried about holding people to a standard where they need to prove their innocence, they'd happily say she's not guilty on the available evidence.


I don't know what evidence of intent would satisfy you. A signed confession? A videotape of her confessing? Hearsay from someone around at the time?

What we know, for starters, is that she repeatedly listed herself in the AALS for several years as a minority. That's pretty good evidence of intent.

As to why you're having a mental block with attempting to benefit vs actually benefiting I don't know, but this is a standard distinction in law. If I lie on my resume and claim to have had a 4.0 GPA when it was really 3.0, I have attempted to benefit from a lie. If it turns out that the person who hired me didn't actually notice the 4.0 GPA -- or that due to a printing error the 4.0 GPA wasn't visible -- then I haven't actually benefited from my lie. But I don't know why you'd think that that would absolve me of moral guilt in lying on my resume to gain an advantage.

What's the disconnect you're having with this concept, exactly?


   953. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 17, 2018 at 06:35 PM (#5769380)
Man.

This evidence of intent stuff seems like it’s really hard to figure out.

Depending on the person and situation, I guesss.
   954. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 17, 2018 at 06:37 PM (#5769381)
Maybe Warren just meant she was an Indian alumni to express affection for them.... you know, like people often do.
   955. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 17, 2018 at 06:46 PM (#5769387)
I shouldn’t be so glib though.... aals listings aren’t under oath after all.
   956. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 06:49 PM (#5769390)
Obviously she’s just a victim of bad intelligence. I know that isn’t reason enough for a president not to be re-elected. Maybe the rules are different for first-timers, or when hundreds of thousands of people haven’t died.
   957. BrianBrianson Posted: October 17, 2018 at 07:00 PM (#5769398)
What's the disconnect you're having with this concept, exactly?


I mean - I understand why they're different. I just don't understand why that's relevant to the topic. I'm not trying to pick one or the other to make any argument - I'm bundling them together because I'm a lazy writer and the difference seems irrelevant.

As far as evidence, Zonk is probably right that intent is really hard to prove. Absent some hiring document (like a cover letter, or diversity statement, or something) where she touted her bona fides as an Indian, it'd probably be impossible to prove. But, evidence she provided it to Harvard, (especially if it were unsolicited) would be more interesting. Someone involved with the search process saying something concrete would be decent evidence. Evidence about her recounting of her family narrative being false could be probative. If she ever applied for a job/funding that was specifically directed to racial minorities, it'd be circumstantial, but pretty big. I suppose there could be other things.
   958. BDC Posted: October 17, 2018 at 07:07 PM (#5769404)
As several people here have noted, though: let's allow that Warren's quasi- or pseudo-Indian identification is an ethical lapse. Kinda like Joe Biden's claiming to have had Neil Kinnock's youth, or Hillary Clinton claiming to have withstood heavy enemy fire at Sarajevo or wherever the hell.

The remotest suggestion that that makes any of them less ethically acceptable than DONALD F'ING TRUMP is the stupidest suggestion ever made in a natural human language.

   959. Jay Z Posted: October 17, 2018 at 07:17 PM (#5769413)
The Democratic Party’s decision to continue supporting Bill Clinton, for instance, has caused way more harm than good. That this grotesque monster—a liar, an adulterer, almost certainly a rapist—keeps getting trotted out for campaign rallies and DNC speeches is so disgusting, so gross, so cynical, I can’t blame people for bowing out of politics.

It’s not just moral for Democrats to shine the light on its many sinful members; I honestly believe it’s good politics. Cuz right now voters—especially women voters—look up and see that both parties will approbrate to sexual predators so long as they bring in donors and voters. And theyre not wrong.


It is not good politics. To believe so is childish.

A presidential election is two choices to rule over 300,000,000 people. Maybe another choice in a primary. That's it. You, I, have a tiny choice.

The Republicans go to sleep just fine having been led by their various leaders. Any powerful leader is a threat to abuse their power to a greater or lesser extent. It's just part of the game. In total, I want to support the person who is closer to my policies.

Pols, expensive lawyers, C-level execs do not necessarily conduct themselves like you or I would. I may or may not like it, but it's reality. They are what they are. Hope for the better policies. To want Jesus for president, or Nader as Jesus, is simply childish at this point. It shows a lack of situational awareness and maturity.
   960. PreservedFish Posted: October 17, 2018 at 07:17 PM (#5769415)
Was Esperanto or Klingon designed to be able to express even stupider thoughts?
   961. perros Posted: October 17, 2018 at 07:43 PM (#5769442)
As several people here have noted, though: let's allow that Warren's quasi- or pseudo-Indian identification is an ethical lapse. Kinda like Joe Biden's claiming to have had Neil Kinnock's youth, or Hillary Clinton claiming to have withstood heavy enemy fire at Sarajevo or wherever the hell.

The remotest suggestion that that makes any of them less ethically acceptable than DONALD F'ING TRUMP is the stupidest suggestion ever made in a natural human language.


As much as we proclaim hatred of bullies, a weak part of us goes along happy it's not us.

Let's STFU about it already.
   962. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 17, 2018 at 07:54 PM (#5769451)
Let's STFU about it already.


He's not wrong. People talking about this topic are more or less being stupid, by definition.
   963. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 08:25 PM (#5769472)
I mean, there are so many substantive reasons that Warren is awful that it does seem superfluous to focus on her racial dissembling.

But, to be clear, it’s Warren who injected the topic into the national conversation this week.
   964. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 17, 2018 at 08:32 PM (#5769478)
Hardly saints, either, until imprisoned and/or dead.


Yes, we know, you are an idiot. I know* this because only idiots demand sainthood of ... well anyone, including saints.

Leaders are people, just like everyone else. I want them to lead well, good policies and so forth. You know I vote for the best available candidate, I don't demand perfection, since no one is perfect.

* Actually it was obvious long ago, but it was redetermined once again.
   965. perros Posted: October 17, 2018 at 08:39 PM (#5769481)
NYT Gives Fascist a Tongue Bath


Hey! Remember this weekend when the New York Times got dragged all over the place for calling Proud Boys founder Gavin McInnes a "provocateur" like he's some edgy new performance artist or 1980s Madonna instead of a deranged, violent bigot?

Well, they doubled down on that one again yesterday with a saccharine, both sides-y profile by Alan Feuer titled "Proud Boys Founder: How He Went From Brooklyn Hipster to Far-Right Provocateur."

With his egghead glasses, pocket-protector and heavy-drinking, angry-nerd aesthetic, Mr. McInnes has in recent years set himself apart from the current crop of professionally outraged right-wing pundits, not only for being able to spout aggressive rhetoric, but also for being willing to get physical at times.

His obsessions seem to be more cultural than political. Mr. McInnes, a fiscal conservative and libertarian, calls himself a champion of Western values and reserves a burning ire for the political correctness of people on the left whom he describes as busybodies who have lost their sense of humor.


There is a admiration in this description, as if it might be reasonably followed by "He's a rebel and he'll never, ever be any good." As if Feuer can't help but swoon a little over how very cool he thinks McInnes is. After all, he used to be a hipster. From Brooklyn! And he is "willing to get physical at times," like a manly man. Shouldn't all of us be "willing to get physical at times," in service to our principles and (white) nation? Perhaps while chasing people down the street, delivering a gang-style beatdown, and screaming "FAG"?

Even the descriptions of what Feuer calls McInnes's "darker" views are not exactly emblematic of what his "darker" views actually are. In fact, they almost seem cherry-picked to make him sound very reasonable and normal and almost endearing to a certain segment of the population.

But his views are darker when it comes to gender roles and immigration. Mr. McInnes admits that he may be Islamaphobic ("It's seen as xenophobic to be worried about Islam, but they appear to disproportionately allow intolerance to blossom in their communities," he said.) He also acknowledged being something of a sexist. ("I'm an Archie Bunker sexist," he said. "I don't like Gloria Steinem, but I'd take a bullet for Edith.")


Yeah. Those are shitty, but they are pretty milquetoast when it comes to Gavin McInnes's "darker" views. Had Feuer merely gone over to his Wikipedia page, he would have found far "darker" quotes about Muslims. Like this one.

"Muslims have a problem with inbreeding. They tend to marry their first cousins... and that is a major problem [in the US] because when you have mentally damaged inbreds – which not all Muslims are, but a disproportionate number are – and you have a hate book called the Koran ... you end up with a perfect recipe for mass murder."


He also would have found out about a video McInnes did called "10 Things I Hate About Jews." About the horrific things he's said about trans people, about his support for the theory of "white genocide." If he had dug in, at all, to the things McInnes actually says and believes, he might have spent less time swooning over his cool hipster glasses.
   966. Shredder Posted: October 17, 2018 at 08:50 PM (#5769487)
It played and fizzled in Chicago - though almost entirely while I was NOT in Chicago - about a year ago.
I don't have a problem with the concept, but the execution was the big problem with the Cook County Sweetened Beverage Tax. There were a lot of things they just flat out didn't think through*, and they were hemmed in a bit by the state constitution, which made implementation very difficult to do effectively. A gave an hour long presentation on the tax to the Chicago Bar Association about a month before it was repealed, at which point I became one of the foremost experts on a tax that didn't exist.

*A couple of my favorites:
1) 100% juice was not taxable, and water was not taxable. But take some juice and add it to some water? Taxable.
2) The tax was 1 cent per ounce. They had no idea how to handle free refills, other than to assume they would just no longer exist. The tax was paid by the distributor, collected from the retailer, who was then required to reimburse themselves by collecting from the consumer. But how do you tax 1 cent per ounce when you don't know how many ounces you're selling? The County's guidance was to tell retailers to come up with their own estimate on how many ounces the average customer consumes, and tax based on that. I figure it would have taken five, maybe six seconds before someone filed a class action lawsuit based on being taxed 33 cents on the purchase of a 20 ounce fountain drink that they did not refill.
   967. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 17, 2018 at 09:45 PM (#5769583)
But, to be clear, it’s Warren who injected the topic into the national conversation this week.


And? Politicians do dumb #### all the time. We don't have to waste cycles "debating" it. The entire thing is a stupidity generated by the walking sludge and pus mass of stupidity that is Donald Trump.
   968. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 17, 2018 at 09:49 PM (#5769587)
NYT Gives Fascist a Tongue Bath


This is the outlet of Judith Miller, after all. If they actually called a spade a spade, they might lose subscriptions from deeply worried moderates who are very concerned about the tone of our politics.

#### them. There are plenty of boots for their heads too.
   969. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 17, 2018 at 10:32 PM (#5769679)
I thought this was interesting and maybe the religious types would be interested in this, plus it ties into Russia! ... The Eastern Orthodox Churches may split. It’s the biggest crisis for these churches in centuries.

Leaders within the Constantinople Patriarchate, historically the most influential center of the global Orthodox Church, recently took several administrative steps toward granting ecclesiastical independence — also known as autocephaly — to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which is currently under the authority of the Russian Orthodox Church. The move comes after years of increasing tension in Ukraine over the status of its church in the wake of Russia’s occupation of Crimea.

In response, the Russian Orthodox Church announced on Monday following a synod, or gathering of bishops, in Minsk that it would sever all ties with Constantinople. That move would prevent the Russian Orthodox faithful from taking part in any sacraments, such as communion or baptism, at any non-Russian Orthodox churches worldwide.

   970. DJS and the World of Tomorrow Posted: October 17, 2018 at 10:46 PM (#5769712)
As several people here have noted, though: let's allow that Warren's quasi- or pseudo-Indian identification is an ethical lapse. Kinda like Joe Biden's claiming to have had Neil Kinnock's youth, or Hillary Clinton claiming to have withstood heavy enemy fire at Sarajevo or wherever the hell.

The remotest suggestion that that makes any of them less ethically acceptable than DONALD F'ING TRUMP is the stupidest suggestion ever made in a natural human language.


I wouldn't not vote for her based on this, there are way better reasons to not vote for her. It's just really, really funny, like Bush Sr. barfing on Miyazawa.
   971. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 18, 2018 at 01:07 AM (#5769961)
For those waiting with bated breath... the Trump name is coming down from my condo building on Thursday. This news story is not entirely representative, and there's been a lot behind the scenes as one could imagine, but bottom line the sign looks to be coming down.
   972. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 18, 2018 at 01:51 AM (#5770056)
@drmistercody
The Left got a little too PC so I changed all of my opinions about the economy, social issues, systemic racism, health care, and history.

@classiclib3ral
I didn't like how some students at Berkeley behaved so I started supporting concentration camps for migrant toddlers
   973. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 18, 2018 at 01:57 AM (#5770059)
Rapper, actor Common crosses picket line of striking Boston Marriott workers

Common was spotted crossing the line and entering the Ritz-Carlton in Boston Tuesday. In a tweet from the Local 26 union, they say "Hey @common , this is unacceptable. You don't cross union picket lines when you preach solidarity."
   974. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 18, 2018 at 04:20 AM (#5770066)
I had to cross a picket line from the same strike yesterday. I told one of the strikers I would miss my meeting inside if he could tell me who Woody Guthrie was. He said something about “Toy Story”.

Good meeting though.
   975. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: October 18, 2018 at 06:05 AM (#5770068)
The Onion:
Trump: ‘The Only Way To Find Out What Happened At The Saudi Consulate Is To Send In More Journalists One At A Time’
   976. BrianBrianson Posted: October 18, 2018 at 07:08 AM (#5770071)
Well, he wikipedia bio tells me he supports PETA and feuded with Drake, so I have no problem concluding Common is a morally reprehensible person </nosureifserious>
   977. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 18, 2018 at 07:22 AM (#5770073)
For those waiting with bated breath... the Trump name is coming down from my condo building on Thursday. This news story is not entirely representative, and there's been a lot behind the scenes as one could imagine, but bottom line the sign looks to be coming down.

Which after the dust settles will likely help the resale value of your condo, not that you're selling.

And on the brighter side, it might make your condo fees go up once the Trump taint fades from collective memory.
   978. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 18, 2018 at 07:40 AM (#5770074)
A quick 6 question interactive test: ARE YOU A DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST?

One problem is that the last two questions could be answered with a combination of two choices or an answer that lies in between two of them, but the test only allows for one answer each. The other problem is that questions 2 through 4 better distinguish traditional New Deal liberals from Paul Ryan types than socialists from non-socialists. But other than that it's a great test!
   979. PreservedFish Posted: October 18, 2018 at 08:01 AM (#5770076)
I helped open a restaurant in San Francisco that was targeted by protestors because the general contractor didn't use union subcontractors. Opening weekend, we had one of those giant inflatable rats outside the front door, and for the next month or so there were two protestors holding signs and soapboxing to passersby. It's impossible to know how much negative impact it had, but I think it's safe to say that it wasn't a Good Look. What's really funny is that the "protestors" were not true believers - they were paid employees, non-union, naturally.
   980. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 18, 2018 at 08:13 AM (#5770078)

A quick 6 question interactive test: ARE YOU A DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST?
Turns out I'm not.

One problem is that the last two questions could be answered with a combination of two choices or an answer that lies in between two of them,
No, the problem is that the last question doesn't have any right answers.
   981. Greg K Posted: October 18, 2018 at 08:39 AM (#5770079)
No, the problem is that the last question doesn't have any right answers.

Socialism is just one big Kobayashi Maru?
   982. BrianBrianson Posted: October 18, 2018 at 08:40 AM (#5770080)
It's not really just the last two. Government regulations are both helpful and harmful, from case to case. The US is probably wackily over-regulated, I sort of think because of the fear of just letting governments do things. Sweden or Germany, say, are probably far more reasonable here.

Ditto, like, why do I have to pick one on who should control the means of production - the right answer is almost certainly "Depends on the production of what, but some mix of all three". I'm quite a fan of worker owned co-operatives like John Lewis, but that's not typically how workers owning the means of production has gone.
   983. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 18, 2018 at 08:49 AM (#5770084)
No, the problem is that the last question doesn't have any right answers.


This quiz reminds me of those five question "political affiliation" quizzes from the 90's where if you answer any question with anything other than "I loved Stalin and wish we could reanimate him forever" you magically became a "libertarian."
   984. McCoy Posted: October 18, 2018 at 08:58 AM (#5770086)
It's not really just the last two. Government regulations are both helpful and harmful, from case to case. The US is probably wackily over-regulated, I sort of think because of the fear of just letting governments do things. Sweden or Germany, say, are probably far more reasonable here.

I think the only Americans that think America is over regulated are Americans that have not experienced life in countries that are distinctly under regulated. Go spend some time in countries like Paraguay and you'll be kissing the bureaucrats in America when you return.
   985. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: October 18, 2018 at 09:08 AM (#5770088)
Tough to find a Trumpier headline than this:

Trump Framing Midterms As Referendum On His Presidency, But He Won't Accept Blame If GOP Loses
   986. PreservedFish Posted: October 18, 2018 at 09:09 AM (#5770089)
This quiz reminds me of those five question "political affiliation" quizzes from the 90's where if you answer any question with anything other than "I loved Stalin and wish we could reanimate him forever" you magically became a "libertarian."

Shhhh. You may be mocking the intellectual genesis of several participants here.
   987. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: October 18, 2018 at 09:11 AM (#5770090)
Well, he wikipedia bio tells me he supports PETA and feuded with Drake, so I have no problem concluding Common is a morally reprehensible person </nosureifserious>


His music is a little too bland for my tastes, but was one of the poster children of "conscious" rap in the early to mid aughts. Which made it all the more amusing when FOX lost its collective minds when he visited the Obama White House, referring to him as a "vile" rapper.
   988. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 18, 2018 at 09:18 AM (#5770094)
This quiz reminds me of those five question "political affiliation" quizzes from the 90's where if you answer any question with anything other than "I loved Stalin and wish we could reanimate him forever" you magically became a "libertarian."

The biggest problem is that other than #1 and #5, none of the possible answers to any of the questions have much of anything to do with socialism, democratic or otherwise.
   989. . Posted: October 18, 2018 at 09:26 AM (#5770100)
From Edsall's column in the Times today, here's kind of modern liberalism in a nutshell:

While a substantial percentage of Democratic minorities identify as liberals, those percentages have not been growing at anywhere near the rate that they have for white Democrats, so blacks and Hispanics have not contributed significantly to the rising percentage of self-identified Democratic liberals. Over the past 17 years, for example, the percentage of black Democrats who identify themselves as liberals grew by a modest three percentage points, according to both Gallup and the Pew Research Center.

In fact, white liberals are well to the left of the black electorate on some racial issues.

Take the issue of discrimination as a factor holding back African-American advancement. White liberals are to the left of black Democrats, placing a much stronger emphasis than African-Americans on the role of discrimination and much less emphasis on the importance of individual effort.

Among white liberals, according to Pew survey data collected in 2017, 79.2 percent agreed that “racial discrimination is the main reason why many black people can’t get ahead these days.” 18.8 percent agreed that “blacks who can’t get ahead in this country are mostly responsible for their own condition,” a 60.4 point difference, according to a detailed analysis of the Pew data provided the Times by Zach Goldberg, a doctoral candidate in political science at Georgia State University.

Among blacks, 59.9 percent identified discrimination as the main deterrent to upward mobility for African-Americans, and 32.0 percent said blacks were responsible for their condition — in other words, blacks are more conservative than white liberals on this issue.
   990. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 18, 2018 at 09:28 AM (#5770102)
It's not really just the last two. Government regulations are both helpful and harmful, from case to case. The US is probably wackily over-regulated, I sort of think because of the fear of just letting governments do things. Sweden or Germany, say, are probably far more reasonable here.

I think the only Americans that think America is over regulated are Americans that have not experienced life in countries that are distinctly under regulated. Go spend some time in countries like Paraguay and you'll be kissing the bureaucrats in America when you return.


Another aspect is that I think people are under the mistaken impression that corporate America is full-on opposed to regulation - quite the contrary. They'd just prefer to have regulations exist but fashion in the manner that gives the established players a competitive advantage over the upstarts.

Take Amazon's -- non-contractor - wage hike to $15 and vow to advocate for an increase to the minimum wage... I support the idea regardless, so the motives are secondary to me - but I don't think anyone believes the motives are altruistic. I strongly suspect the impetus behind the hike support is the idea that they've got some struggling competition that might see their balance sheets move to insolvency.

Or net neutrality - another regulatory thrust that plenty of very large, very powerful companies support. I welcome their support, but I do not operate under the impression its purely for purposes of philosophy... they'd prefer not to negotiate with ISPs for a slice of their pies.
   991. BrianBrianson Posted: October 18, 2018 at 09:30 AM (#5770105)
I think the only Americans that think America is over regulated are Americans that have not experienced life in countries that are distinctly under regulated. Go spend some time in countries like Paraguay and you'll be kissing the bureaucrats in America when you return.


Well, I'm not an American, and I've mostly lived in countries that are not America.

Can't say I've ever been to Paraguay, though.
   992. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 18, 2018 at 09:32 AM (#5770106)
From Edsall's column in the Times today, here's kind of modern liberalism in a nutshell:


Yet, they still vote over 90% Democratic...

Why is that?
   993. PreservedFish Posted: October 18, 2018 at 09:48 AM (#5770114)
Among blacks, 59.9 percent identified discrimination as the main deterrent to upward mobility for African-Americans, and 32.0 percent said blacks were responsible for their condition — in other words, blacks are more conservative than white liberals on this issue.


This is definitely interesting, and if liberals are misidentifying the causes of racial inequality, that's obviously a bad thing.

But as far as I'm concerned it's a sign of good intentions. Liberals are more likely to make charitable assumptions. \

I think there's also likely a difference of perspective here. Black people naturally ought to focus more on personal responsibility because it's the only thing they control. White people naturally might focus on structural racism because it's the only way they can make an impact.
   994. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 18, 2018 at 09:59 AM (#5770129)
in other words, blacks are more conservative than white liberals on this issue.


I agree with everything PF said in #993, but I also would like to mention that personal responsibility for ones situation in life is not a conservative (US) position. Maybe it was once, but in a world where Global Laughingstock Donald Trump is the leader of the major conservative party no one can credibly argue personal responsibility has anything to do with US conservatism.

It does appear African Americans are more self critical than White liberals are critical, but so what? Do we expect everyone to evaluate things in exactly the same way? One of the reasons I favor diversity is that diverse life experiences lead to different conclusions. That is a feature not a bug and disagreements and healthy conversations about those disagreements are a good thing.
   995. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 18, 2018 at 10:10 AM (#5770136)
   996. McCoy Posted: October 18, 2018 at 10:12 AM (#5770138)
America isn't over regulated. This isn't Gilliam's Brazil or Orwell's 1984
   997. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 18, 2018 at 10:21 AM (#5770146)
Do we expect everyone to evaluate things in exactly the same way?
Obviously not; for example, we expect libertarians to evaluate things correctly and liberals to do so incorrectly.

[Rest of empty platitudes snippped.]
   998. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 18, 2018 at 10:22 AM (#5770148)
I agree with everything PF said in #993, but I also would like to mention that personal responsibility for ones situation in life is not a conservative (US) position.

And anyone who's remotely cognizant of American history would realize that African Americans have long been the truest real conservatives of just about any ethnic group, in the "Work hard and play by the rules" sense. What confuses too many people is the way that Republicans have hijacked the idea of "conservatism" to the point where it means little more than support of a somewhat modified 1950's racial hierarchy along with a 1920's idea of unregulated capitalism. Real conservatism today, in the sense of wanting to preserve the best part of American values, is to be found far more among Democrats than it is among the nativism and kleptocracy enabling of today's Republicans. No real conservative would ever in a million years want to be associated with the likes of Donald Trump or his congressional lackeys.
   999. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 18, 2018 at 10:24 AM (#5770151)
America isn't over regulated.


Mostly I agree, but there are plenty of licensing, NIMBY, and other similar things that are kind of dumb. Overall I would prefer smarter regulations with much less regulatory capture, but looking at the two main political parties in the US, the Democrats are way more likely to move regulations in that direction than the GOP.

The Democrats certainly have issues with regulatory capture, but at this moment in time regulatory capture is one of the three triads which define the GOP (along with xenophobia and prosperity Jesus).
   1000. BrianBrianson Posted: October 18, 2018 at 10:28 AM (#5770154)
Yes, America is definitely over-regulated. Sure, it could be more over-regulated, but lower regulation countries like Canada/UK/Sweden/Germany are not lawless hellholes. They're quite nice, and easier places to live.

My wife gets a lot of grief when Americans ask her where she liked living the most and she typically says the UK. But it's a lot easier to live there. Less paper to do. Less paperwork to wait on. Less pointless laws to follow.

Even just the America is covered in stop signs, Britain is covered in yield signs, is like, visceral in how it reflects.
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