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Monday, October 08, 2018

OTP 2018 October 8: Hugh Jackman’s ‘The Front Runner’ Confronts The Political Conundrum Of Our Time

The picture drops us into the thick of the 1984 campaign right as Hart (a low-key and weather Jackman, oddly eschewing his usual star charisma) conceding the nomination to Walter Mondale. As you know, Mondale got slaughtered by Ronald Regan in the general election, losing all but one state in the electoral college (despite still winning 41% of the popular vote). So, four years later, Hart is back in the thick of it, as he argues that the failed 1984 campaign was partially to introduce himself on the national stage for the next time anyway. And this time out, he quickly becomes the front runner for the nomination and the general election.

 

Want to know what happened next? I guess you have to watch the movie.


(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 08, 2018 at 09:00 AM | 1559 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: movie, off topic, politics

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   1401. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 15, 2018 at 11:29 AM (#5766730)
Re Warren. NY Post:

Sen. Elizabeth Warren, whom President Trump mocks as “Pocahontas,” released a DNA test that shows “strong evidence” she had Native American in her family tree going back generations, according to a report Monday.

Carlos D. Bustamante, a Stanford University professor and expert in the field, determined in his analysis that a pure Native American ancestor appears in Warren’s family “in the range of 6-10 generations ago,” the Boston Globe reported.

That’s consistent with the Massachusetts Democrat’s family lore from her Oklahoma upbringing that her great-great-great-grandmother, O.C. Sarah Smith, was partially Native American.


I'm at a loss as to how this (assuming arguendo the analysis is accurate, which remains to be seen) would justify her dishonestly promoting herself as Native American in connection with her employment and potential employment, and allowing her employers to do the same.

What she could say, at this point, is that while there may have been some distant Native American relative she is obviously white and therefore should not have used that to gain an unfair advantage on other candidates.

Here's what Snopes had to say earlier:

The legitimacy of Warren’s claims to Native American heritage has certainly been challenged by many critics, and it is true that while Warren was at U. Penn. Law School she put herself on the “Minority Law Teacher” list as Native American) in the faculty directory of the Association of American Law Schools, and that Harvard Law School at one time promoted Warren as a Native American faculty member. But specific evidence that she gained her position at Harvard (at least in part) through her claims to Native American heritage is lacking. Warren denied applying for special consideration as a person of Native American heritage during her career, and when the matter was examined in 2012 in response to Brown’s claims, people with whom Warren had worked similarly denied her ancestral background’s factoring into the professional opportunities afforded her


From her own website:

Fact: Elizabeth Warren's Heritage Played No Role in Her Hiring

"In the most exhaustive review undertaken of Elizabeth Warren’s professional history, the Globe found clear evidence, in documents and interviews, that her claim to Native American ethnicity was never considered by the Harvard Law faculty, which voted resoundingly to hire her, or by those who hired her to four prior positions at other law schools. At every step of her remarkable rise in the legal profession, the people responsible for hiring her saw her as a white woman."


This is interesting. First, in it Warren concedes that she had claimed to be Native American in applying for jobs. Second, it asserts that the the same institutions who consider diversity critical found it irrelevant that she was a minority candidate. Third, to my knowledge none of these documents have been released. Fourth, these kinds of witness statements are essentially worthless, decades later, when it's not even clear that the person making the statement would recall the specific details of the hire.

Elizabeth graduated from the University of Houston and Rutgers Law School, and became one of the country’s top experts in bankruptcy, commercial law, and the financial pressures facing working families. The people who recruited Elizabeth to her teaching jobs, including Ronald Reagan’s former Solicitor General, all confirm: they hired her because she was an award-winning legal scholar and professor and they were unaware of her family’s heritage.


It's particularly duplicitous. Dishonestly claim that you're a minority candidate and then argue later that this didn't matter to anyone. She must have thought it mattered at the time. And also checking off "white" on various boxes along the way (after already gaining the advantage) _hurts_ her argument, as it shows that she understood that she was doing something wrong earlier or at least that she understood that she was not Native American. (Who goes back and forth on what ethnicity they are?) Also, just getting one's foot in the door is important, so if this were used to accomplish that and then for *later* opportunities it didn't matter, the ill begotten advantage still exists.

But of course Warren can't just end things here. She has to whatabout her own racism by claiming that someone else is racist. NY Post:

Warren herself also addresses Trump’s “Pocahontas” comments, saying “my family history is my family history.”

“This isn’t just about casual racism — warhoops and tomahawk chops. Native Americans have faced discrimination, neglect and violence for generations,” she says in the video. “And President Trump can say what he wants about me, but mocking Native Americans or any group in order to get at me — that’s not what America stands for.”


Is it racism to exploit Native Americans by falsely claiming you're one to advance your career?

--

See you folks tonight.
   1402. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 15, 2018 at 11:30 AM (#5766732)
I managed to get myself into the pre-paid lane of one of the toll roads instead of going through a toll booth to give them my dollar or two. I've been expecting to get a notice and fine ever since. How long should I expect to have to wait?


If you haven't heard by now, you probably never will. The bill by plate notices arrive fairly quickly.
   1403. perros Posted: October 15, 2018 at 11:30 AM (#5766733)
Note that both Trump and Conway responded when questioned 'Who cares?' Probably won't stop Trump at his rallies, but it's a backstep, at least.
   1404. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 15, 2018 at 11:31 AM (#5766735)
The only time I appeared before a judge was 20 odd years ago for speeding on the highway. Driving from Wisconsin to Illinois at night for the last time before heading off to college. Almost hit a cop that is on the side of the highway with his lights off. Gets me going something like 25 over. He tells me the fine is something like 125 dollars and that I could pay it right then. I asked if I would get a receipt. He got very indignant at that and accused me of accusing him of stealing the money. Pay the fine and read the ticket and see that I have to appear before the court because of the fine. Luckily one of the family friends is a lawyer so he files an extension and on summer break I have to appear before the judge. Sit in the court for about an hour until I get called up. The judge is basically a machine churning through cases. I plead guilty and get fined 105 dollars and get a “next!” Ask the court clerk if that is on top of my original fine or not. Get a harrumph out of the judge and a quick explanation that the difference will be refunded.


My only time appearing before a judge didn't actually involve the judge...

In college, was driving to the train station to pick up my brother, who was 14 and coming up for 'siblings weekend'. Unfortunately, my shitbox had a dead battery - so I was running late after getting a jump start and driving with some urgency... but certainly no moreso than anyone else in Chicago. I got pulled over for 'running' a red light - as in, turning left and waiting until oncoming traffic cleared the intersection before completing my turn.

My explanations about my urgency fell on deaf ears - and worse, the car problems had caused me to change my jacket to a rattier one, but neglecting to transfer my wallet into the new jacket... so I didn't have my license on me, either. My escalating complaints added a speeding ticket to the citation list - which was bullshit; "how fast do you think I was going, given you do not appear to have a radar gun?"... "I'll just make up a number". My shock did not improve the conversation, so I was ushered into the back of the squad car and taken to the station -- where my pleas at this point regarding my now-stranded and in a pre-cellphone era brother likewise fell on deaf ears.

Ultimately, this led to about 5 citations for everything and more the CPD ####### could think of... speeding, left on red, disobeying a lawful command, driving without identification, something about disrespecting an officer. The ####### twit wouldn't even let me return to even lock my car doors before he pulled away.

My Cousin Vinny being a relatively recent film at the time - I had visions of ripping this officer a new one in court... but he didn't even show up so when my turn in the assembly line came due, the prosecutor just said "as the officer isn't in court today, these will be dismissed. Drive safely."

And that was that.

Well, except for the various complaints I filled out and filed against him.
   1405. perros Posted: October 15, 2018 at 11:33 AM (#5766736)

From a political standpoint, I don't mind her doing this as I would very much not like to see her ever be president. But yeesh, I'm guessing that no campaign strategist gave her the idea to do this.


Fortunately she hasn't hired Bob Schrum.
   1406. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 15, 2018 at 11:33 AM (#5766737)
But she couldn't leave it at that, she had to WIN the situation, belabor the point, and stretch it out for a lot of news cycles. And then still bring it up years later rather than ignore Trump's childish bullying. This continued attempt to void the original white lie, to me, reflects far more poorly on her character than the meaningless white lie itself. And now she gives air to one of the few conspiracy theories of Donald Trump that starts out with a grain of truth.


Oh yeah, gee golly.... THAT'S unusual behavior.
   1407. Traderdave Posted: October 15, 2018 at 11:33 AM (#5766739)
I was adopted shortly after birth and have taken a few DNA tests to learn my ancestry and discover birth family. Sample size of one, but my results from 3 different DNA services were dead on accurate.
   1408. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 15, 2018 at 11:34 AM (#5766740)
The discussion of traffic tickets reminds me of an open issue for our Florida residents. In August while taking our youngest off to college in Orlando, I managed to get myself into the pre-paid lane of one of the toll roads instead of going through a toll booth to give them my dollar or two. I've been expecting to get a notice and fine ever since. How long should I expect to have to wait?


Depends if you were in a rental car or not.

I've had this happen to me a couple times.

The only time I've ever seen repercussions is when my credit card got an extra $50 charge from the rental company a month or so later.
   1409. perros Posted: October 15, 2018 at 11:35 AM (#5766741)
Remember when people thought Ray and David were the same guy? Pretty clearly not, but both seem to have a fist permanently lodged in the rectum when it comes to Democrats.
   1410. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 15, 2018 at 11:36 AM (#5766742)
@BrianZahnd
"Brothers, we are part of the same people. You are killing your own brothers and sisters. When you are faced with an order to kill given by a man, God's law must prevail: Thou shalt not kill. No soldier is obliged to obey an order against the law of God." -Óscar Romero, 3/23/80

The next day, following this sermon, a U.S.-supported government hit squad shot Óscar Romero through his heart as he stood at the altar.

Today the Catholic Church made him a saint.
   1411. DJS and the World of Tomorrow Posted: October 15, 2018 at 11:37 AM (#5766743)
Honestly Ray, I think Warren probably acted in good faith in the original lies and didn't think twice about the family mythology, thinking it made sense, being from Oklahoma and all. Just like Renate feeling differently about Kavanaugh's use of "alumni" than Kavanaugh did doesn't make Kavanaugh a lie. Now, if she says she's a Native-American *now* (as opposed to the very foggy "has native American ancestry"), that's totally a lie.

I assumed my maternal grandfather was an Ashkenazi Jew until I was in my 20s, based solely on the fact that his family was from the Ukraine. I only found out upon inquiry that he was actually a Sephardi Jew, his family being in an enclave in Western Ukraine that had a lot of Jews that had emigrated from Spain. Apparently I have a significant chunk of distant relatives in Spain that stayed as Christians. If someone had asked me my Jewish heritage up until this point, I would have been wrong, but I don't think that I'd have been lying.

I'm not certain, but I believe it more likely than not that Warren truly believed she was of significant Native-American ancestry until further inquiry late in life.
   1412. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 15, 2018 at 11:39 AM (#5766745)
Depends if you were in a rental car or not.


Good point.

The only time I've ever seen repercussions is when my credit card got an extra $50 charge from the rental company a month or so later.


Yes. And if so, it's possible the rental car company merely charged your card and you haven't noticed. That happened to me one time when I rented a trailer from U-haul. I had a transponder in my pickup, but I didn't register the trailer. At one booth, the transponder didn't activate, so the trailer plate got billed and U-haul merely charged my card. I didn't notice until over a month later when I saw and extraneous charge and called them.
   1413. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 15, 2018 at 11:40 AM (#5766748)
Honestly Ray, I think Warren probably acted in good faith in the original lies and didn't think twice about the family mythology, thinking it made sense, being from Oklahoma and all.


Of course, to the extent it proves anything - the DNA test results would clearly align with it not being a "lie" or "family mythology", but the truth of the matter.

But nobody quite does a backhanded pretend-to-be-above-it like our Dan! It's his specialty in the OTP, really.
   1414. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 15, 2018 at 11:48 AM (#5766751)
Yes. And if so, it's possible the rental car company merely charged your card and you haven't noticed. That happened to me one time when I rented a trailer from U-haul. I had a transponder in my pickup, but I didn't register the trailer. At one booth, the transponder didn't activate, so the trailer plate got billed and U-haul merely charged my card. I didn't notice until over a month later when I saw and extraneous charge and called them.


Sometimes I swear locales set up toll fine traps -

I'd have to retrace the map to find it, but some river bridge between Indiana and Kentucky (I think - might be Kentucky-Tennessee but I don't think that's a river-border crossing) is toll-only and worse, transponder toll only. But - there are virtually no signs or otherwise warnings that you're about to cross a toll, transponder-only bridge... until you are on it with no other way except to proceed, upon which you immediately see plenty of signs explaining how to pay to your fine for doing so.

Over the course of one year (family in Nashville at the time), I got hit by that ###### every damn time.... the last time, I made the concerted effort to "No Tolls" the google map directions just to avoid it and I still ended up getting caught up in it.
   1415. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 15, 2018 at 11:48 AM (#5766752)
Of course, to the extent it proves anything - the DNA test results would clearly align with it not being a "lie" or "family mythology", but the truth of the matter.


Yeah it is kind of weird to see people still calling it a lie and Ray saying "Is it racism to exploit Native Americans by falsely claiming you're one to advance your career?", when everything points to her really having Native American heritage.

So again I ask, what should the punishment be for correctly asserting, but perhaps inflating, a heritage?
   1416. OCF Posted: October 15, 2018 at 11:49 AM (#5766753)
My DNA has not been tested, and I'm not convinced that the whole enterprise has risen above the level of junk science.

I was born and raised in Oklahoma. The place where I lived was historically (from the Trail of Tears time through 1907) part of the Cherokee Nation, albeit about as far from the capital at Tahlequah as you can get, and originally settled as much by Delaware (Lenape) as Cherokee. But my parents both moved there as adults from distant parts of the country, so I have no reason to think that I have any Cherokee ancestry at all.

What I think: I think I'm something like 2/3 to 3/4 English (which might include Scottish) and 1/4 to 1/3 German (which might include Low German, Dutch, and/or Alsatian). The most recent immigrant ancestor I know about was German, and that was 5 generations back. Since pretty much all of my ancestral lines have been in America for a very long time, with some of them likely extending well into the 18th century, the odds are pretty good that there's some Native American ancestry in there somewhere a long way back - and indeed, there is a vague unverified family story to that effect. I don't know what tribe - probably something in the northeastern U.S. For exactly the same reasons, there are even better odds that there's some African-American ancestry in there somewhere a long way back. None of that really matters to my self-identity; if you pressed me to declare an ethnicity, I'd probably just say "American."
   1417. Lassus Posted: October 15, 2018 at 11:52 AM (#5766756)
Just like Renate feeling differently about Kavanaugh's use of "alumni" than Kavanaugh did doesn't make Kavanaugh a lie.

God, planting your flag on this one is still just bizarre. I can even see the foggy or blackout drunk pushback, but this position is really nonsensical given all the available information.
   1418. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 15, 2018 at 11:52 AM (#5766757)
I’m just glad we no longer have to talk about the fascists marching down the streets of New York beating protesters, with the full-throated support of the police and state media.

Cuz that was a real downer.
   1419. Lassus Posted: October 15, 2018 at 11:54 AM (#5766760)
We went through MA twice over the summer with the "WE'LL MAIL YOU THE BILL" for the tolls as we're no longer on EZPASS, and we've gotten absolutely nothing. I do wonder a bit about that.
   1420. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 15, 2018 at 11:56 AM (#5766762)
What I think: I think I'm something like 2/3 to 3/4 English (which might include Scottish) and 1/4 to 1/3 German (which might include Low German, Dutch, and/or Alsatian). The most recent immigrant ancestor I know about was German, and that was 5 generations back. Since pretty much all of my ancestral lines have been in America for a very long time, with some of them likely extending well into the 18th century, the odds are pretty good that there's some Native American ancestry in there somewhere a long way back - and indeed, there is a vague unverified family story to that effect. I don't know what tribe - probably something in the northeastern U.S. For exactly the same reasons, there are even better odds that there's some African-American ancestry in there somewhere a long way back. None of that really matters to my self-identity; if you pressed me to declare an ethnicity, I'd probably just say "American."


My grandfather, certainly no SJW - though, very much an FDR Democrat - would be very angry if I didn't say "Polish-American". Very angry.

I've never done a genealogy test, but I had a GF who was big into all that ancestry and family tree stuff -- and did a workup that more or less verifies what I'd always been told.... Polish with some Ukrainian going back a couple generations pre-immigration.

I have to admit - it was kind of neat seeing some of the old (well, digital) artifacts... even if there were no princes or royalty - just "laborer" on an ellis island card. And, I guess - the possibility that one side of the family immigration line may well have entered illegally as there was no record of immigration.
   1421. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 15, 2018 at 11:58 AM (#5766763)

What should the punishment for such egregious behavior be? On a different topic you were counseling do nothing - "Not sure why -- if the story was accurately reported -- anything needs to be done on matters such as this. At most, call them aside and tell them that if they're going to do things like this they should do a better job of keeping it secret."

So what do you counsel for this infraction by Warren?
I am not sure why you are comparing an elected politician to some students. (With respect to the latter, I do certainly advocate that we record these students' infractions somewhere permanent so that when they are up for Supreme Court nominations in 35 years, we can yell gotchamisogyny and stomp our feet and demand that they not be confirmed, if they're nominated by Republicans.) I didn't say we should "punish" Warren; we obviously shouldn’t vote for her, but that's because she's a communist, not because she lied about her ancestry.
   1422. DJS and the World of Tomorrow Posted: October 15, 2018 at 11:58 AM (#5766765)
God, planting your flag on this one is still just bizarre.

Lies require intent. How someone remembers a specific word usage in a specific mean joke 35 years ago no doubt has a lot of fogginess.
   1423. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:02 PM (#5766767)
Lies require intent. How someone remembers a specific word usage in a specific mean joke 35 years ago no doubt has a lot of fogginess.


I suppose this is true... he and his buddies might well have been blackout drunk when they decided to list themselves as Renate alumni.
   1424. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM (#5766769)
I am not sure why you are comparing an elected politician to some students.


I did not compare them. One clue would be when I used the words "On a different topic". I did ask for your advice on what the punishment should be on this different topic, since you had just dispensed punishment advice.

I didn't say we should "punish" Warren


I didn't say you did. Good to hear you don't think she should be punished though - at least it seems that is what you were implying.
   1425. JL72 Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:05 PM (#5766770)
Lies require intent. How someone remembers a specific word usage in a specific mean joke 35 years ago no doubt has a lot of fogginess.


Well, when there is contemporaneous evidence that a recollection is wrong, one could certainly conclude that very intent based on other half-truths and the stakes at issue.

Not enough for perjury, but enough to decide that a promotion is not deserved.
   1426. BrianBrianson Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:07 PM (#5766771)
Indeed, the take aways are now:

Everything Warren said she believed about her actual genetics appear to be true.

The evidence that she ever benefitted from it, or tried to, remains identically zero.

It probably swings exceedingly little, but as we've seen from the polls of who people support for the Democratic candidate for President in 2020, having your name in the news is a huge, huge boost for that. Especially since it's easy to spin this as a "win" (albeit a silly one).
   1427. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:10 PM (#5766774)
I'm at a loss as to how this (assuming arguendo the analysis is accurate, which remains to be seen) would justify her dishonestly promoting herself as Native American in connection with her employment and potential employment, and allowing her employers to do the same.


Truly, we're all shocked that you don't extend your Trumpian benefit of doubt to Elizabeth Warren, Ray.
   1428. PreservedFish Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:13 PM (#5766777)
I still think calling her Pocahontas is an acceptable jab, though.
   1429. JL72 Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:14 PM (#5766780)
Honestly Ray, I think Warren probably acted in good faith in the original lies and didn't think twice about the family mythology, thinking it made sense, being from Oklahoma and all.


I could believe this. I have stories in my family. Later documentation has revealed some to be true, others to be false, and some to be "truish". By that, I mean it mostly happened, or it happened, but by somebody else in the family, or happened earlier or later than the story says (or some combination). I certainly never thought about those stories or assumed my family lied to me.
   1430. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:18 PM (#5766781)
It probably swings exceedingly little, but as we've seen from the polls of who people support for the Democratic candidate for President in 2020, having your name in the news is a huge, huge boost for that. Especially since it's easy to spin this as a "win" (albeit a silly one).


Which is too bad. I am not a "Warren for President" rodent. I doubt I would vote for her in a primary, though obviously I would in an election versus GOP President and Global Laughingstock Trump.
   1431. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:19 PM (#5766782)
Early gender tests 'leading to selective abortions of girls in UK'

Labour MP Naz Shah, shadow women and equalities minister, said the government must act now to stop the misuse of Non-Invasive Prenatal Test (NIPT) to abort pregnancies based on gender.

The NHS only allows pregnant women the early blood test to screen for genetic conditions, but private clinics are offering expectant parents the chance to find out their baby’s gender for around £150 to £200.

(...)The MP said a cultural preference for boys among some ethnic minority communities in the UK was “forcing (women) to adopt methods such as NIPT to live up to expectations of family members”.

(...)“No wonder they’re resorting to sex-selection abortion because they’ve got no choice,” said the charity’s founder Rani Bilkhu. “They don’t want to be homeless, they don’t want their marriage to fail – all because they couldn’t give birth to a boy.”

My wife is pregnant again, and this time she’s of “advanced maternal age,” which means we get OBGYNs and nurses trying to push us into Down syndrome screens every visit.
   1432. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:21 PM (#5766786)
I still think calling her Pocahontas is an acceptable jab, though.


Can I call Sarah Sanders fat and cockeyed? That's certainly less subject to interpretation or counter-argument.
   1433. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:22 PM (#5766787)
Which is too bad. I am not a "Warren for President" rodent. I doubt I would vote for her in a primary, though obviously I would in an election versus GOP President and Global Laughingstock Trump.


I have a really, really hard time coming up with ANYONE I wouldn't vote for over Trump.

There are Democrats - and non-Democrats who one might spitball as sort of bizarro blue Trumps, I guess - that I might have to hold my nose for... but that's probably the most amusing thing about Clapper's similar-regular updates on the state of the 2020 Democratic Presidential primary.

Not a single one of the names anywhere on those list would I not consider a vast step up from Trump.
   1434. perros Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:22 PM (#5766788)

So again I ask, what should the punishment be for correctly asserting, but perhaps inflating, a heritage?

Four more years of Trump.
   1435. PreservedFish Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:23 PM (#5766791)
Can I call Sarah Sanders fat and cockeyed?


Have at it.
   1436. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:23 PM (#5766792)
Vote Green and keep your conscience clean. Maaaaan.
   1437. perros Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:25 PM (#5766795)
I still think calling her Pocahontas is an acceptable jab, though


Ray and David (and Szym) have long trumpeted their misanthropy on these threads.

What's in it for you to hop aboard the Trump bandwagon? You're about one more post away from the #### list.
   1438. PreservedFish Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:25 PM (#5766796)
I'd probably vote for Trump before I voted for the second guy in this video from a Libertarian Party debate.
   1439. . . . . . . Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:27 PM (#5766797)
I am blacker than Liz Warren is Indian. I’ve never checked any box and lord help me if I did. And I actually have kind of funny, coarse hair for a white dude that probably comes from some North African Jew in my lineage getting some side action.
   1440. PreservedFish Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:27 PM (#5766798)
What's in it for you to hop aboard the Trump bandwagon? You're about one more post away from the #### list.


Dear lord I'm not on the Trump bandwagon, I think Trump is the worst.
   1441. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:28 PM (#5766799)

I still think calling her Pocahontas is an acceptable jab, though.
No. It's stupid, based on Trump's lack of mental acuity leading him to be unable to even insult people correctly. The original jab was Fauxcahontas, and that one made sense. Calling her "Pocahontas" is just silly.
   1442. PreservedFish Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:28 PM (#5766800)
Agreed, Fauxcahontas is funnier.
   1443. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:29 PM (#5766801)
Can I call Sarah Sanders fat and cockeyed?

Have at it.


I mean, you agree that this is a less contentious characterization than calling Warren "Pocahontas" right? Nobody would argue she wasn't fat or didn't have a wonky eye. I just want to make sure we don't end up accepting an arguable characterization as acceptable while claiming a completely unremarkable and easily-verifiable characterization as somehow inappropriate. I'm a man of constant principle, this is my burden.

   1444. BrianBrianson Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:29 PM (#5766802)
I'm not particularly endorsing Warren as a presidential candidate candidate (or, whatever you're supposed to call people who are running to run for president). But this seems like a sensible political move for her, assuming she's interested (and I think she's formally uncommitted at this time - i.e., testing out the invisible primary).

Yeah, it doesn't win over Ray, but I'm pretty sure Ray would sooner gouge out a testicle using an unrestored knife taken off a bog body before he'd vote for Warren, so I think she's right to be unconcerned.
   1445. dlf Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:30 PM (#5766803)
If you haven't heard by now, you probably never will. The bill by plate notices arrive fairly quickly.


Depends if you were in a rental car or not.


Good to hear. I was in my car and two months later haven't seen a bill yet. But with out-of-state plates, I still am expecting it any day now.

...

I'm always amazed at the amount of time D's spend "defending" Warren on this silly little issue. If I were a D strategist, or a Warren supporter, I'd just briefly say something like 'locker room' talk (family lore, etc.) and move on to her policy positions. I'm not a Warren supporter based on, among other things the use of garbage bankruptcy stats to overstate the claim of health care expenses in published articles and her subsequent policy positions that basically assert that making money by a corporation is dastardly bad. But I'll assume she and her supporters want to push those things; instead, however, they are letting DJT and his Pocohantas jabs take up all the oxygen in the room instead of the substance Sen Warren advocates. D's as a whole seem to want to respond to every adverse criticism R's levy but by doing so they are letting their opponent chose the battle ground.

Edit:
obviously I would in an election versus GOP President and Global Laughingstock Trump.


DJT is the only national politician in the US who I am 100% positive I would vote against in a contest with Sen Warren.
   1446. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:31 PM (#5766804)
Ray is waiting for Dilbert to chime in with his wizardly insights.
   1447. PreservedFish Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:33 PM (#5766805)

I mean, you agree that this is a less contentious characterization than calling Warren "Pocahontas" right? Nobody would argue she wasn't fat or didn't have a wonky eye. I just want to make sure we don't end up accepting an arguable characterization as acceptable while claiming a completely unremarkable and easily-verifiable characterization as somehow inappropriate. I'm a man of constant principle, this is my burden.


I told you I don't have a problem with it.
   1448. . Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:36 PM (#5766807)
The evidence that she ever benefitted from it, or tried to, remains identically zero.


Right, because it's every day that Houston undergrad/Rutgers Law people get hired to the Harvard Law faculty.
   1449. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:36 PM (#5766808)
The best healthcare in the world!

Across 9.5 million estimated new diagnoses of cancer from 2000–2012, individuals averaged 68.6±9.4 years with slight majorities being married (54.7%), not retired (51.1%), and Medicare beneficiaries (56.6%). At year+2, 42.4% depleted their entire life's assets, with higher adjusted odds associated with worsening cancer, requirement of continued treatment, demographic and socioeconomic factors (ie, female, Medicaid, uninsured, retired, increasing age, income, and household size), and clinical characteristics (ie, current smoker, worse self-reported health, hypertension, diabetes, lung disease) (P<.05); average losses were $92,098. At year+4, financial insolvency extended to 38.2%, with several consistent socioeconomic, cancer-related, and clinical characteristics remaining significant predictors of complete asset depletion.
   1450. Lassus Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:38 PM (#5766809)
No one's going to help me with Massachusetts? I'm sure some Roma dude screwed one of my Polish matrilineal line. Thanks for nothing, biased New Englanders.
   1451. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:40 PM (#5766812)
Indeed, the take aways are now:

Everything Warren said she believed about her actual genetics appear to be true.

The evidence that she ever benefited from it, or tried to, remains identically zero.


That should end the discussion, but then there too many Rays out there to provide much hope for that.

Meanwhile, a far more interesting story about Warren's current activities was in today's print edition of the Post, with excerpts courtesy of your faithful copyright communist:

Elizabeth Warren builds expansive Democratic campaign effort ahead of likely 2020 bid
BOSTON — During the past six months, Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) has built a shadow war room designed to elect Democrats across the country in the midterm elections, overtaking some of the traditional duties of Democratic Party campaign committees and further positioning herself for an all-but-certain 2020 presidential bid.

Her effort, which goes far beyond the fundraising and endorsement speeches in which prospective presidential candidates typically engage, has encompassed work in all 50 states and close coordination with more than 150 campaigns. The result is a wide-ranging network that includes those running for state treasurer in Nevada, state legislature in Iowa and congressional offices across the country.

It is unmistakably aimed at some of the early-primary states that Warren would need to contest in a presidential campaign. She has deployed staffers to all four early primary states — two to New Hampshire and one each to Iowa, South Carolina, and Nevada — as well as to traditional powerhouses such as Ohio, Florida, Michigan and Wisconsin.

“I feel the urgency of the moment nationally,” Warren said in an interview. “It’s two parts: It’s holding Donald Trump accountable for what he does. It’s also trying to push this country toward working better for hard-working families.”

The Warren effort, while beneficial to a presidential campaign she said she will “take a hard look” at after the midterms, also signals how decentralized the national Democratic Party has become as most of the energy is being generated by individuals who are building their own operations. ...

Warren is still helping the official campaign committees — donating and raising money for the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, for example — but much of her work is independent of them and appears aimed at restocking a Democratic bench that has become woefully thin in recent years.

Warren, who has built a prodigious fundraising network for her Senate campaign, also has raised or donated $7.6 million for other candidates and committees this cycle. On Monday, one of her aides said, she plans to donate an additional $460,000, which appears to place her ahead of most of her potential 2020 rivals except for Michael Bloomberg, who is spending $100 million of his own money on the midterms.

“I speak a lot to candidates who are running this year,” said David Axelrod, a top political adviser to former president Barack Obama. “She’s the first call they get after a primary. It’s not just the winners she’s calling, she’s calling the losers, too. . . . The scale is pretty impressive.”

“This is how you go about building relationships and acquiring chits for a future project. It’s very smart,” he added. “If you were advising someone who had the resources of someone who was going to run for president, this is what you would do.” ...

The operation — which internally is called the Democratic Outreach Team, or DOT — began in early 2018 when Warren’s staff started researching individual races in all 50 states, examining candidates and evaluating polling, fundraising and on-the-ground dynamics.

“We know every single district,” a Warren aide involved in the effort said. “We’ve researched every district. We’re granularly paying attention to every place on the map.”

Warren deliberately stayed out of almost every Democratic primary. But shortly after a winner was declared, Warren placed a congratulatory call — something she did for 172 candidates, by her staff’s tally — and offered campaign assistance. Someone from her staff was then assigned to the candidate to provide help or solicit requests.

After Nevada’s primary in June, Warren was on the phone with Zach Conine, who is running for state treasurer. “She was the only elected official outside of the state of Nevada who called,” he said.

When Deidre DeJear, who is running for secretary of state in Iowa, came to Washington a few weeks ago, Warren’s staff made sure they had time to meet. “She was super encouraging, and said, ‘Don’t let up,’ ” DeJear said. “I said, ‘Yes ma’am.’ ”

In June, when Liuba Grechen Shirley won her House primary in New York, Warren was among the first to call.

About once a week since then, Warren’s team has been in touch with Shirley’s campaign manager, Anna Brichacek. They share policy memos, craft fundraising emails and discuss ways to amplify their social media messages. When one of Shirley’s field directors was hospitalized, Warren called to wish her well.

“A lot of people are being helpful,” said Shirley, who is running against Rep. Peter T. King (R-N.Y.) in a district that most have expected to remain in Republicans’ hands. “But no one has been more helpful than Elizabeth Warren.”

She said Warren is helping fill a void and able to energize the wave of first-time candidates running this year.

“The Republicans are really good at building a bench,” Shirley said. “This is something the Democratic Party hasn’t done a great job of. I really appreciate that she is taking the time to build a bench.” ...





   1452. Spahn Insane Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:41 PM (#5766813)
I'd have to retrace the map to find it, but some river bridge between Indiana and Kentucky (I think - might be Kentucky-Tennessee but I don't think that's a river-border crossing) is toll-only and worse, transponder toll only. But - there are virtually no signs or otherwise warnings that you're about to cross a toll, transponder-only bridge... until you are on it with no other way except to proceed, upon which you immediately see plenty of signs explaining how to pay to your fine for doing so.

Yes, that'd be the I-65 bridge between Louisville and Jeffersonville, IN. I did that very thing recently--I ordinarily wouldn't be driving a rental car, but the missus and I had rented a big van to retrieve a large piece of furniture, and we drove the toll bridge north without considering the implications of not having a transponder. My suspicion is the rental company will simply bill my card for the 8 bucks or whatever, and may have already, though the plate-generated invoices for that bridge take at least a month in my experience.

It probably understates things to say their system of providing notice to drivers of where the toll bridges are and how to pay the toll is lacking.
   1453. BrianBrianson Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:42 PM (#5766814)
Right, because it's every day that Houston undergrad/Rutgers Law people get hired to the Harvard Law faculty.


It's everyday that Endowed Chairs at UPenn get hired by Harvard Law. I know it's tough to understand when you're in high school, but once you have a PhD (or JD, in this case), literally nobody cares about where you did your undergrad.
   1454. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:42 PM (#5766816)
51% of Protestant pastors approve of Trump’s job performance.
Pastors’ responses are also split across denominations. Pentecostals (86%) and Baptists (68%) are most likely to approve of the president’s performance.

Church of Christ pastors (55%) and Lutherans (41%) are more split, while few Presbyterian/Reformed (28%) and Methodists (25%) say they support the job President Trump has done.

Even in these denominational divides, the views of the president’s performance largely follow political leanings, according to McConnell.

In 2016, pastors in Pentecostal (76%) and Baptist (67%) churches were most likely to be Republicans. Pastors in Presbyterian/Reformed (29%) and Methodist (25%) churches were least likely to say they’re part of the GOP.
   1455. Swoboda is freedom Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:44 PM (#5766817)
my grandfather yelling at his full-time housekeeper because she didn't remember to pick up beer.

Wow, DJS's grandfather is Brett Kavanaugh. No wonder he is such a fervent supporter.
   1456. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:46 PM (#5766818)

Yes, that'd be the I-65 bridge between Louisville and Jeffersonville, IN. I did that very thing recently--I ordinarily wouldn't be driving a rental car, but the missus and I had rented a big van to retrieve a large piece of furniture, and we drove the toll bridge north without considering the implications of not having a transponder. My suspicion is the rental company will simply bill my card for the 8 bucks or whatever, and may have already, though the plate-generated invoices for that bridge take at least a month in my experience.

But yes, to say their system of providing notice to drivers of where the toll bridges are and how to pay the toll is lacking probably understates things.


Yup.

That's the one. My experience with it is that yes, your rental agency will just charge you... for the toll... plus a fine... plus whatever fine print they have in the rental agreement about such things...
   1457. JL72 Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:48 PM (#5766821)
I told you I don't have a problem with it.


I do. Sanders is a liar who appears to have no moral character. Fine to make that known. But body-shaming her is not the way to go.

The easy rule is if you can hear Trump saying it, then it is not something you should say.
   1458. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:50 PM (#5766822)
The best healthcare in the world!


You have stage 3 _____ cancer you should FIGHT IT HARD NEVER GIVE UP JIMMY VALVANO WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

That's our attitude, and it's a stupid one imo. I went through it with my dad. Wasted incredible amounts of money (although luckily he had a nice sum saved up by 55) and effort and quality of live only to maybe squeeze another 6 months of live out of him.

It was bad man. The surgeries were the worst. Worse than the chemo, and certainly worse than the cancer itself.

If you catch it early, sure, do all the treatment. If you're in your mid 50s and it's spread throughout your body like my dad's -- meh. Book a vacation and get your affairs in order. Get the bucket list ready. Spend the money on friends and family.

But body-shaming her is not the way to go.


The idea that you can't call a fat ugly person fat and ugly is pernicious and stupid and de-evolves us as a society. I don't care what their party affiliation.
   1459. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:52 PM (#5766826)
What Thirteen Months Hiding from Immigration Officials Inside a Durham Religious Facility Has Taught Jose Chicas

Because ICE designates medical facilities, public demonstrations, and places of worship "sensitive locations" at which it typically avoids immigration enforcement, Jose is safe there—so long as he doesn't leave the property.

There’s no actual “law” stopping ICE from breaking down the doors of his church next Sunday to deport him, right? It’s just a custom?
   1460. JL72 Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:52 PM (#5766827)
My experience with it is that yes, your rental agency will just charge you... for the toll... plus a fine... plus whatever fine print they have in the rental agreement about such things...


The Illinois toll roads use transponders as well. But if you don't have one, you can go on-line to pay (but you need to know the name of the toll-booth as well as time you crossed the toll).

My wife and I rented a car and chose to do that rather than pay the $10/day fee to use the rental car transponder. While I was driving, she used her phone to pay the tolls as we went through. Not surprisingly, the Illinois toll commission still tried to bill the rental car for the tolls (plus a penalty), who in turn tried to bill us. My wife saved the receipts, so we got out of it. But I suspect this attempt to double-collect is the norm.
   1461. Spahn Insane Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:54 PM (#5766828)
My experience with it is that yes, your rental agency will just charge you... for the toll... plus a fine... plus whatever fine print they have in the rental agreement about such things...

Except there's no "fine" with this bridge unless you don't pay the ticket after receiving notice by mail (which is how it's always handled for vehicles without transponders). You do pay twice as much as a non-transponderer than a driver who is thusly equipped.

(I did once get socked with a pair of fines for nonpayment on one of the Chicagoland toll roads--again, was driving a rental car and didn't switch my transponder into that vehicle--but there I was driving in a lane specifically designated for transponder use; there was a cash/credit payment option in the non-transponder lanes, so I was in the wrong place. The I-65 bridge doesn't have the cash/credit option. Anyway, the rental car company didn't charge me; they apparently provided the toll authority with my address info so the toll authority could collect directly, as I received a citation addressed to me at my home address.)
   1462. perros Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:55 PM (#5766829)

Dear lord I'm not on the Trump bandwagon, I think Trump is the worst.


You've assented to his racist jeer. Not a big fan of the McCarthy stuff, either, as "not really Indian" falls in line with the centuries-long genocidal project. Leave the Rez and leave any claim to reparation.

The GOPer contingent here -- not unlike the Trump core -- in themselves would not be a problem if they weren't abetted by a broader reactionary contingent in the culture wars. Believe me when I say I wish we could 'hug it out', but we're well past any civil and poitical norms now where we can afford to sit things out.

Not that neoliberalism doesn't richly deserve the dustbin. Don't ask me to support Dems who line up right of Jeff Bezos.
   1463. Lassus Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:56 PM (#5766833)
The idea that you can't call a fat ugly person fat and ugly is pernicious and stupid and de-evolves us as a society.

Well, you can go with that, but I'm pretty sure jerks and assholes like you are the drivers there.
   1464. Zonk is Just the Right Amount of Wrought Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:57 PM (#5766834)
Trump makes new overtures to Democrats

By all means, I am fine with "Infrastructure Week" ceasing to be code for "We had a bad week" and instead, meaning he's signing some bill a Democratic congress passed.

Won't change the fact that his and his offspring's asses are going to become besties with probes and spotlights.... but we're down with walking and chewing gum at the same time, sure.
   1465. PreservedFish Posted: October 15, 2018 at 12:59 PM (#5766836)
You've assented to his racist jeer.


I don't consider it a racist joke. The joke doesn't put down Pocahontas, it puts down Warren. If your buddy awkwardly claims to be smart and you say "Nice work Einstein" you're not putting down Einstein.

Unless the rule of thumb here is "no joke should ever refer to race at all," which I'm not prepared to agree with.

Well, you can go with that, but I'm pretty sure jerks and ######## like you are the drivers there.


Good humor is almost always on the edge of good taste. If someone tries a fat joke with Sarah Sanders and it falls flat and they get whalloped for it, that's a known risk of telling the joke in the first place.
   1466. perros Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:01 PM (#5766838)
Warren is a target from all sides for her lefty outspokenness. I expect to be disappointed by any and all Democrats, but I think it possible to overthrow the corporate domination of the Party if activists keep pushing.

She better watch her back.
   1467. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:02 PM (#5766840)
I told you I don't have a problem with it.

I do. Sanders is a liar who appears to have no moral character. Fine to make that known. But body-shaming her is not the way to go.


Being fat is an objective designation. If she thinks it's an unfair characterization she can get on a scale and we'll calculate her BMI. There's no real judgement or shaming here, any more than calling her Southern.
   1468. Lassus Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:03 PM (#5766841)
I don't consider it a racist joke. The joke doesn't put down Pocahontas, it puts down Warren. If your buddy awkwardly claims to be smart and you say "Nice work Einstein" you're not putting down Einstein.

Ehhhhhhhh maybe. Seems more like using Pocahontas as an insult. That doesn't seem the case with your Einstein comment.


Good humor is almost always on the edge of good taste. If someone tries a fat joke with Sarah Sanders and it falls flat and they get whalloped for it, that's a known risk of telling the joke in the first place.

I'm not sure why you responded this way. There were no jokes in art-of-the-wall's statement I quoted or responded to that you used. (Unless it's a pop culture quote I was unaware of.)
   1469. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:06 PM (#5766844)
Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 13, 2018 at 07:50 PM (#5765837)
Mob of white nationalist ‘Proud Boys’ brutally beat several men: ‘Are you brave now, faggot?!’


42 hours and counting, and not a peep from Team Trump Makes Me Feel Weird But ####### Liberals, AMIRITE?! (Ray, Dan, etc.) But hey. We have detailed opinions from them about the very, very, super, incredibly important question of how valid Elizabeth Warren's DNA test is!
   1470. BrianBrianson Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:09 PM (#5766845)
Seems more like using Pocahontas as an insult.


If you're having the English translated into your native Klingon by someone who speaks only !Kung, maybe.
   1471. Spahn Insane Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:09 PM (#5766846)
The idea that you can't call a fat ugly person fat and ugly is pernicious and stupid and de-evolves us as a society.

So does bringing a person's appearance into the discussion where it's irrelevant (apart from "fat and ugly" being largely subjective--Sanders looks to be a bit overweight, but it's not like she's morbidly obese. But again, even if she were, it's neither here nor there.).

While in terms of politics I'm generally aligned with and usually enjoy the comments of those now poking fun at Sanders, including you, the body-shaming stuff just brings y'all closer to the Trumpkin level of discourse. You're better than that.
   1472. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:09 PM (#5766847)
1449 and 1458:

There’s a somewhat related point brought up in this blog post:

For those who live and breathe the abortion debate, it may be worthwhile to personalize the issue and see if anything changes. Certainly, Rick Santorum has done this.

If you do not already know the story, Senator Santorum told it himself on Fresh Air in September 2004. Briefly, at approximately 20 weeks gestation, he and his wife learned the fetus had a terrible disorder that would likely result in the fetus’ demise. They had three choices: carry the fetus to term, when it would inevitably die; abort the fetus; or try a risky surgery on the fetus (which was still inside the womb) which had a low probability of success. The Santorums, true to their faith and their principles, reasoned thusly: if this was a five year old child, there would be no debate. They went with the surgery.

As tragedies go, this was a big one, as the surgery failed, the fetus died, and the mother suffered complications. However, the story clearly indicates how one should reason if one believes life begins at conception. This is the point for the Senator; it is illogical to argue any differently. If we are debating the abortion issue, this is a hard argument to rebut.

But I am not, here on this blog, interested in the abortion issue specifically; I am interested in another question. It is this:

Who pays for this surgery?

It is not an academic question. Senator Santorum has the benefit of almost infinite medical resources. If we are going to force Medicaid patients to make a similar choice, we have to ask this practical question.
   1473. perros Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:10 PM (#5766849)
The joke doesn't put down Pocahontas


The whole "can't take a joke, eh" #### is part of the overall project of white supremacy.

Honestly, I'm trying to accept OTP as backwards on these fronts so as not to be pissed off constantly.
   1474. Shredder Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:12 PM (#5766850)
Except there's no "fine" with this bridge unless you don't pay the ticket after receiving notice by mail (which is how it's always handled for vehicles without transponders). You do pay twice as much as a non-transponderer than a driver who is thusly equipped.
I think his point is that the fine you will be charged is likely not one assessed by the toll authority, but rather by the rental car company. I too got like a $25 or $50 charge from a rental car company for missing a fifty cent toll on SR 400 north of Atlanta, which I now find out isn't even a toll road anymore.

The weird thing about that erstwhile tollway is that the exits are numbered sequentially, and not by the mile marker. So it's a bit of a letdown when you direction say "Take exit 6", and you think "sweet, it's only six miles", only to learn that exit six is like 25 miles down the road, because it's literally the sixth exit.
   1475. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:14 PM (#5766851)
Seems more like using Pocahontas as an insult.


If you're having the English translated into your native Klingon by someone who speaks only !Kung, maybe.


Yeah. You can be uncomfortable with the cross-racial implications of the insult. You can be doubly so because coming from Trump and the Fox News right, we already know beforehand that they're racist #####. But strictly speaking, as a statement; no.
   1476. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:14 PM (#5766852)
Sanders looks to be a bit overweight, but it's not like she's morbidly obese.


So she looks fat but not grotesquely fat? OK. Get on the scale and we'll take it from there.

I assume I'll need an ophthalmic diagnosis of strabismus before calling her "cockeyed" too?
   1477. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:15 PM (#5766854)
SR 400 north of Atlanta, which I now find out isn't even a toll road anymore.


Which is annoying. Traffic is far worse now.
   1478. PreservedFish Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:16 PM (#5766855)
Perros, weren't you outwardly in favor of Trump? Or was that a false persona of yours? Or am I just confused?
   1479. Spahn Insane Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:17 PM (#5766858)
I think his point is that the fine you will be charged is likely not one assessed by the toll authority, but rather by the rental car company. I too got like a $25 or $50 charge from a rental car company for missing a fifty cent toll on SR 400 north of Atlanta, which I now find out isn't even a toll road anymore.

Right--see my comments on the IL toll road, though, where I ended up getting a citation directly from the toll authority; I don't how typical that is from one state and/or rental car company to the next. (The charging of a credit card without affording the driver the opportunity to challenge the underlying citation seems a little problematic from a due process standpoint, especially where you're effectively outsourcing your collection process to a rental car company neither authorized nor qualified to assess the citation's merits [yes, the photographing of license plates probably means a very low rate of erroneous citations, but still].)
   1480. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:18 PM (#5766860)
The whole "can't take a joke, eh" #### is part of the overall project of white supremacy.
Yes, like squirrels, the color periwinkle, and the weak electromagnetic force. Plus Pluto. (The Disney character and the planet.) Really, it would be easier to discuss what isn't part of the imaginary "project of white supremacy."


(EDIT: Scare quotes very very very very very very much intentional.)
   1481. Shredder Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:18 PM (#5766861)
Sanders looks to be a bit overweight, but it's not like she's morbidly obese.
She's downright svelte compared to the rest of the Huckabee family. She's also not responsible for a rape/murders that I'm aware of. Can't say the same for her father.
   1482. Spahn Insane Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:19 PM (#5766862)
So she looks fat but not grotesquely fat? OK. Get on the scale and we'll take it from there.

I assume I'll need an ophthalmic diagnosis of strabismus before calling her "cockeyed" too?


Nah. I'll stipulate to the accuracy of your description if not its relevance.
   1483. perros Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:19 PM (#5766863)
That's our attitude, and it's a stupid one imo.


Some people give Steve Jobs #### for not going that route -- I don't really care, honestly -- but past a certain age surgical intervention is incredibly stupid. In my mind if I get something that'll kill me quickly untreated, I'll likely go that route.

The idea that you can't call a fat ugly person fat and ugly is pernicious and stupid and de-evolves us as a society.


From what people have written here, this attitude seems born of personal issues. Attacking a woman's looks is a low blow.
   1484. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:19 PM (#5766864)
While in terms of politics I'm generally aligned with and usually enjoy the comments of those now poking fun at Sanders, including you, the body-shaming stuff just brings y'all closer to the Trumpkin level of discourse. You're better than that.


I'm a person that at various times has been both quite fit and quite fat and I feel I can comment on it. When I was fat, I was a slob in many ways. It's a personal discipline issue and I think that personally it's a virtue to keep your body in good condition. I know this position has been termed "body policing" or even "body fascism" by NPCs, er SJWs.
   1485. PreservedFish Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:20 PM (#5766865)
I will concede that Trump, being the vile and hateful gas bag that he is, very possibly did view the nickname "Pocahontas" as a degrading one. I was trying to separate the joke from its teller, which might be unwise.
   1486. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:21 PM (#5766867)
Cont.

I’m morally opposed to abortion, which puts me at odds with most of my friends on the Left; however, one spot on the issue where we *do* see eye-to-eye is that we will have a lot more actual reproductive freedom—the freedom to choose whether to have children—under socialism than we have under contemporary capitalism (where women are all too often have to set their desires for motherhood aside due to financial insecurity.)

You don’t have reproductive freedom when you’re too poor to choose to have a kid.
   1487. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:23 PM (#5766869)
The discussion of traffic tickets reminds me of an open issue for our Florida residents. In August while taking our youngest off to college in Orlando, I managed to get myself into the pre-paid lane of one of the toll roads instead of going through a toll booth to give them my dollar or two. I've been expecting to get a notice and fine ever since. How long should I expect to have to wait?


This has happened to me a couple of times. It's frustrating when you get off of a major freeway, and there is no manned booth (you have to either have SunPass, or exact change in coins). At any rate, I've never gotten any subsequent notice or charge, so either the DOT or the rental car company is eating the toll.
   1488. Lassus Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:24 PM (#5766871)
If you're having the English translated into your native Klingon by someone who speaks only !Kung, maybe.
Yeah. You can be uncomfortable with the cross-racial implications of the insult. You can be doubly so because coming from Trump and the Fox News right, we already know beforehand that they're racist #####. But strictly speaking, as a statement; no.


As we're talking about the insult from Trump, I'm not sure what's in debate. Anyhow.
   1489. BrianBrianson Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:26 PM (#5766874)
The whole "can't take a joke, eh" #### is part of the overall project of white supremacy.


I read the article, and everything it asserts about the context of Pocahontas is wrong. Certainly, it contains subjective judgements that are neither right nor wrong, but it speaks poorly of the article writer that they seem to present no interest in facts. It may be true that Trump is too dumb to understand (what's the inverse of the null set), but the context is pretty clear - white people who've wanted to claim Indian ancestry often invoke an Indian princess, often specifically Pocahontas, to assert some nativeness. Virginia's miscegeneration law, for instance, carved out a specific exception for < 1/Nth Indian ancestry so everyone of importance could claim to be descended from Pocahontas.

I don't really buy the premise - if you're a white person who is native to North America, and see the First Natives as part of your cultural ancestors, people often give you a hard time if you're not genetically an Indian or Inuit. Even though you can freely claim cultural descent from white people you're not genetically descended from, either.

Honestly, I'm trying to accept OTP as backwards on these fronts so as not to be pissed off constantly.


You're free to be pissed off, but the opinions expressed here probably centre at the typical educated white people who're conservative-ish but fleeing from the reactionaries, overall. Probably, given the context, with a higher interest in whether positions asserted in ideology are actually true (though we're hardly perfectly there). Individuals vary, of course.
   1490. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:26 PM (#5766875)
I will concede that Trump, being the vile and hateful gas bag that he is, very possibly did view the nickname "Pocahontas" as a degrading one. I was trying to separate the joke from its teller, which might be unwise.


Didn't Fat Donnie say he'd donate $1 million to charity if Warren took a DNA test?
   1491. BrianBrianson Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:29 PM (#5766878)
David, you're thinking of the strong nuclear force. The weak force ... okay, this is highly inexactly, but to negative first order, the strong nuclear force wants to binded coloured particles together to create colourless ones, and the weak nuclear force wants to bust them apart. So, if you want to call any force white supremist, it's the strong force.
   1492. Lassus Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:29 PM (#5766880)
It's a personal discipline issue and I think that personally it's a virtue to keep your body in good condition.

OK. Were you also ugly and not-ugly, depending?
   1493. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:29 PM (#5766881)
Really, it would be easier to discuss what isn't part of the imaginary "project of white supremacy."


Perros is overselling this today. The idea that the "project of white supremacy" is "imaginary" is one of the stupider, more idiotic things you've said. And I'm weighing that against such classics as "taxation is theft (at gunpoint!)" and "society doesn't exist."
   1494. PreservedFish Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:29 PM (#5766882)
Didn't Fat Donnie say he'd donate $1 million to charity if Warren took a DNA test?


I was just reading about this on reddit - he said he'd donate $1 million to charity if she took the test and proved "she was an Indian" (paraphrased). Which remains open to debate.
   1495. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:30 PM (#5766883)
David, you're thinking of the strong nuclear force. The weak force ... okay, this is highly inexactly, but to negative first order, the strong nuclear force wants to binded coloured particles together to create colourless ones, and the weak nuclear force wants to bust them apart. So, if you want to call any force white supremist, it's the strong force.


Why is gravity so weak compared to the strong nuclear force?
   1496. BrianBrianson Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:32 PM (#5766886)
I will concede that Trump, being the vile and hateful gas bag that he is, very possibly did view the nickname "Pocahontas" as a degrading one.


In as far as he can have ideas, he certainly does view it as a degrading one. But not because he thinks Warren is like Pocahontas, but because he thinks Warren is not like Pocahontas. Go back to the perhaps less racially charged calling people who do something dumb Einstein comparison.
   1497. DJS and the World of Tomorrow Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:32 PM (#5766887)
So does bringing a person's appearance into the discussion where it's irrelevant (apart from "fat and ugly" being largely subjective--Sanders looks to be a bit overweight, but it's not like she's morbidly obese. But again, even if she were, it's neither here nor there.)

He said *can't*. I don't generally call people other than Andy names. But I'd argue it should be an issue of *shouldn't* not *can't*.
   1498. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:33 PM (#5766889)
OK. Were you also ugly and not-ugly, depending?


Honestly? Yes. At 250lbs my face had almost zero definition. No jaw, no cheekbones, and a triple chin. At 190 I have a lot more definition and it's clearly improved my dating pool.

I'm still short on a good day maybe I could pass for 5-9", so I'll get height monged by Chad once and awhile :-)
   1499. BrianBrianson Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:33 PM (#5766890)
Why is gravity so weak compared to the strong nuclear force?


If you have any ideas, I'm open to writing some grant proposals.
   1500. DJS and the World of Tomorrow Posted: October 15, 2018 at 01:33 PM (#5766891)
Well, when there is contemporaneous evidence that a recollection is wrong, one could certainly conclude that very intent based on other half-truths and the stakes at issue.


Another person's subjective opinion of someone's words, remembered 35 years later, isn't exactly DNA or photographic evidence.
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