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Tuesday, September 11, 2018

OTP 2018 September 10: Former executive Neil McMillan reflects on a long career in baseball, politics and mining

Neil McMillan never made it to the big league, but that hasn’t stopped the former politician, financier and mining executive from blaming his success on the time he spent on the pitcher’s mound all those years ago.

“The real difference in my career … has been a function of my attitude, and it starts out as a willingness or a drive to risk failure,” said McMillan, who recently retired from his last job as chairman of the uranium miner Cameco Corp.

Politics was something of a second choice for McMillan, after a physician ended his lifelong dream of flying for the Snowbirds.

After Trudeau-hating voters turfed him out of office — the alternative would have have been to jump ship and run as a Conservative, an idea he wasn’t prepared to indulge — McMillan spent almost two decades working in finance, as a broker.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 11, 2018 at 08:06 AM | 1379 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: canada, off topic, politics

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   901. Greg K Posted: September 14, 2018 at 10:50 AM (#5744298)
A degree seems like it would be helpful short hand though. If I'm choosing between two lawyers to represent me - one has a law degree and the other says "I didn't go to law school, but trust me, I know what I'm doing"...I'm probably hiring the one who has a degree. Unless I'm a student of law myself I'm probably not going to be able to evaluate their professional track records.

Perhaps I'm too trusting of institutions, and I'm sure it's possible that sometimes in that scenario I'm missing out on better representation, but I still feel like the self-taught lawyer is an awfully big gamble.
   902. Traderdave Posted: September 14, 2018 at 10:51 AM (#5744299)
When I was a young man, the CEO of the company told me over a luncheon that the #1 rule his father had told him was to "keep your pecker out of the payroll". I have never forgotten that sage advice


As my boss put it, "Don't mix honey with money", and "Don't put your pen in the company ink".


"No fishing off the company pier" is the way I heard it, but that was in regard to co-workers more than subordinates.
   903. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: September 14, 2018 at 10:51 AM (#5744300)
My point was that you don't need a degree to do that. My point was NOT that you don't need to know what you're doing. You can learn what to do without a degree. Same for psychology. That doesn't mean that psychology isn't a useful field.

The problem isn't that it is impossible to do without a degree. The problem is why should I take that additional risk as a client. The guy without a degree is much more of a wildcard. An unknown. He could know everything and be awesome at every aspect of representing a client. Or he could be a complete kook. The guy with a degree is a much more known quantity, and much less of a risk.

If the matter is important enough to get a lawyer involved, I am damn sure going to pick one that is a relatively sure thing.
   904. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: September 14, 2018 at 10:51 AM (#5744301)
856-I’m a non-denominational evangelical, but yeah, they’re a very welcoming group and can look past it. (I’m best friends with the guy who hosts it.)

As for politics: though I’m a communist, I still think my basic worldview is traditionalist. My social conservatism sets me apart from my felliw attendees at DSA/Green Party events—I suspect if they actually knew how I felt about (say) gay marriage or adultery, they’d give me the evil eye!
   905. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: September 14, 2018 at 10:53 AM (#5744304)
As to objectivity, that's part of the reason why people think I'm a robot. A competent lawyer doesn't let emotion interfere with his or her legal analysis.

No, the reason people think you are a robot, is not because you are always completely objective (you quite often aren't, see e.g. Clinton, any).

The reason people make robot jokes about you, is that you regularly display a complete an utter failure to understand basic things about how human beings behave and react. See for example on the last page "why do people care about this hurricane if they are not in the direct path of it." (paraphrased)
   906. Jack Keefe Posted: September 14, 2018 at 10:56 AM (#5744305)
Onct when I got a summar job on a Pole Tree farm my boss told me Dont fuck the ducks.
   907. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 14, 2018 at 10:56 AM (#5744307)

As to objectivity, that's part of the reason why people think I'm a robot. A competent lawyer doesn't let emotion interfere with his or her legal analysis.
That's... not the reason.
   908. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2018 at 10:58 AM (#5744315)
A competent lawyer doesn't let emotion interfere with his or her legal analysis.


This may come as a surprise to some here, but many professions are like this. In IT a huge number of roles require the ability to dispassionately analyze situations. I promise Ray, lawyers are not the only ones to do this.
   909. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: September 14, 2018 at 10:59 AM (#5744317)
What's interesting to me is the methodology of how the number went from 64 (Puerto Rico's number) to "hundreds" (National Hurricane Center) to ~3,000 in the Milken study.
Much of the study focuses on the lack of preparedness prior to the storm, and the inability after the storm to either A) access various areas of the island, and B) report back in a timely manner. For these reasons, it's going to be impossible to ever get an actual number. Trump is as inartful as ever when saying "3000 people did not die in the storm", because while it's true that 3000 people did not die that day, it's a pretty good estimate of people who died because of the storm. What's difficult to determine is when to cut things off. If a 78 year old patient with kidney problems died two months after Maria from complications of not having proper meds for three weeks, would they have died anyway? Hard to say. But for Trump to hang his hat on "there were only 16 dead when I was there" ignores the fact that the majority of the country was without power and incommunicado, and there were almost certainly dozens if not hundreds of immediate casualties that weren't known to central authorities at the time. But then...

------
I'm not interested in the Trump-centric part of the dustup.
There's a surprise.
It’s not true that the higher death estimate “was done by the Democrats in order to make [Trump] look as bad as possible.” It was an independent study commissioned by Puerto Rico and undertaken by researchers at George Washington University’s Milken Institute School of Public Health.
Ho hum, the President of the United States blatantly lies about the deaths of American citizens, solely for political gain. Why should anyone be interested in that?
   910. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 14, 2018 at 11:02 AM (#5744319)
(***) As to objectivity, that's part of the reason why people think I'm a robot. A competent lawyer doesn't let emotion interfere with his or her legal analysis. So a client comes to you and is often very passionate about what's happened to them or what they need legal advice on. I can't afford to go, "I know this person has no case but dammit I feel really bad for them" and let that convince me that they must have a case. I have to examine the situation dispassionately. I apply that same objectivity to thinking about politics and ideology. OTOH all some people here seem to do is let emotion drive their analysis on an ideological issue.

That's what eugenicists say.
   911. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 14, 2018 at 11:05 AM (#5744322)
896

The reason one shouldn't represent herself in a court of law is not necessarily because the person isn't trained as a lawyer; it's that the person -- even if trained -- probably isn't able to be objective when analyzing her own case (***).

Do people here know what you do in law school? Read case after case. Learn issue spotting. Learn IRAC. Learn which facts are relevant to the law and which aren't. Learn which facts you need that you don't have. You don't really learn "the law" per se, which is why I can't just pick up and do med mal even though I may understand some of the broad concepts. You have to pick an area or a few areas to become proficient in; you can't do everything. The law is very jurisdiction sensitive and is ever changing.

My point was that you don't need a degree to do that.


Thank you, Ray. Sincerely, no snark intended. This is illuminating.

   912. McCoy Posted: September 14, 2018 at 11:05 AM (#5744323)
When I was younger and working for more individually owned restaurants everyone would #### everyone. Once I moved to a more corporate job I stopped hanging out with most of my coworkers and didn't hang out at all with subordinates.

I recall one time in Baltimore I was at a bar drinking with a few of my fellow managers and one of our bartenders showed up after their shift. I called it a night at that point and went home. Some shvt went down that night that could have potentially cost some people their jobs. Perhaps the only thing that saved some jobs was that the GM would routinely bring strippers back to the hotel and the other jobs got saved because it would have put a manager in a awkward situation to go to HR about a possible attempted rape by an hourly employee in a hotel room at 2am.
   913. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 14, 2018 at 11:06 AM (#5744324)
898

As my boss put it, "Don't mix honey with money", and "Don't put your pen in the company ink".


Of course, "Don't s#it where you eat."
   914. dlf Posted: September 14, 2018 at 11:06 AM (#5744326)
Do people here know what you do in law school?


Drink heavily? Most of legal education is a waste of time because the professors at most schools know how to be professors but don't know how to practice law. I busted my arse for one semester trying to learn every little bit of information in the casebooks / hornbooks and the lectures while trying to figure out how to apply the information to my career, getting decent but not good grades. After that, I spent 20% of that time just studying the professor rather than the material by reading the exam bank - old tests and sample answers the school maintained - and ended up with high honors at a top 25ish school. I learned, to the degree I have, to practice law during a clerkship, several informal mentorships, and first few years of practice.

A degree seems like it would be helpful short hand though. If I'm choosing between two lawyers to represent me - one has a law degree and the other says "I didn't go to law school, but trust me, I know what I'm doing"...I'm probably hiring the one who has a degree.


Contra to the above, graduation from a decent law school shows a modicum of intelligence and an ability to apply it to something. What does this say about someone who can afford top-flight representation who instead chooses to hire someone who went to the worst law school in the country?
   915. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 14, 2018 at 11:08 AM (#5744328)
901

If I'm choosing between two lawyers to represent me - one has a law degree and the other says "I didn't go to law school, but trust me, I know what I'm doing"


What is a "yout'," Mr. Gambini?
   916. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: September 14, 2018 at 11:10 AM (#5744329)
A competent lawyer doesn't let emotion interfere with his or her legal analysis.

This may come as a surprise to some here, but many professions are like this. In IT a huge number of roles require the ability to dispassionately analyze situations. I promise Ray, lawyers are not the only ones to do this.
A competent doctor doesn't let emotion interfere with his or her medical analysis.
A competent engineer doesn't let emotion interfere with his or her physical analysis.
A competent teacher doesn't let emotion interfere with his or her educational analysis.
A competent social worker doesn't let emotion interfere with his or her sociological analysis.
A competent firefighter doesn't let emotion interfere with his or her professional analysis.

A competent, functional human being lets emotion interfere with their everyday life; among other ways, by demonstrating empathy for those in difficult situations which they themselves have not personally experienced.
   917. perros Posted: September 14, 2018 at 11:13 AM (#5744334)
I suspect if they actually knew how I felt about (say) gay marriage or adultery, they’d give me the evil eye!


A lot of leftists are Puritans.

"No fishing off the company pier"


A lot of bbtfers are master baitsmen, but were never much at dropping the line in the water.
   918. perros Posted: September 14, 2018 at 11:17 AM (#5744337)

Of course, "Don't s#it where you eat."


But mama, that's where the fun is.
   919. JL72 Posted: September 14, 2018 at 11:20 AM (#5744341)
Do people here know what you do in law school? Read case after case. Learn issue spotting. Learn IRAC. Learn which facts are relevant to the law and which aren't. Learn which facts you need that you don't have.


This is very accurate. But law school is paying someone to teach you this in a relatively short period of time and about a variety of subjects. Law firms are a business venture out to make money. They don't do a great job in teaching the basics, because they can't bill it to a client so don't make money on it.

So while you can do it without a law degree, my experience is that is a long and inconsistent way to do it.
   920. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 14, 2018 at 11:22 AM (#5744343)
Henry Olsen, City Journal on the ripple effect of waves:
Outcomes at each level tend to run in similar directions and with roughly equivalent dimensions. Take the GOP “wave” election of 2010. Republicans not only picked up a massive 63 House and six Senate seats; they also gained six governorships and 680 state legislative seats. Democrats celebrated similar numbers four years earlier. In 2006, a Democratic landslide saw that party gain 31 House seats, six Senate seats, six governorships, and over 300 state legislative seats. Individual races might diverge from the national trend, but a wave will sweep all before it, no matter what level the race is at.

............Republicans must defend 11 governor’s chairs without the benefit of a previously elected incumbent. RealClearPolitics rates three of those seats as leaning to the Democrats with another six rated as toss-ups, including the large states of Florida, Georgia, and Ohio. GOP incumbents are also running in seven other states that by polling or by prior voting behavior raise caution flags. RealClear rates one of them, Illinois’ Bruce Rauner, as a likely loser, while incumbents in Wisconsin (Scott Walker) and Arizona (Doug Ducey) are considered toss-ups. Should Republicans lose the four races they trail in and only split the toss-ups, that would mean a net loss of eight governorships, the largest any party has lost in one election since the GOP picked up 11 in the historic 1994 wave.

...........Any Republican-held [state legislative] seat carried by either Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump with less than 50 percent of the vote [is vulnerable]. A staggering 477 GOP-held statehouse seats fit these criteria. Another 202 Republican-held state Senate seats also fit the bill, though not all will be up for election because many states stagger senatorial terms. Losses of that magnitude would easily be the largest Republican losses in decades.

...............Nineteen of the 77 Republican members of the Minnesota state House are on the danger list: the GOP would lose control if it lost 11 of those seats. Republican control of both New Hampshire chambers and the Senate in New York, Connecticut, and Colorado should also be expected to be lost under these circumstances. Even Republican control of the Michigan House and the Florida House and Senate could fall if the Democratic wave is high enough. In both cases, more GOP seats are in the danger zone than the party can afford to lose and maintain power.

Losses of this magnitude would hit hardest in the Northeast and the Northwest. Nearly half, 12 of 25, of the California assembly delegation is endangered, while 19 of the Washington GOP’s 48 state House members are also threatened. But that pales in comparison to the Northeast. Fifty of Vermont’s 53 Republican state House members are endangered by this measure, as are 29 of Massachusetts’s 34 and 41 of Connecticut’s 71. A blue wave would devastate the GOP in many prosperous, coastal states.

It would also seriously diminish Republican dominance in high-income suburbs. Only 18 of the Georgia GOP’s 115 state House seats are endangered, but they’re in the once heavily Republican, high-income suburbs of Atlanta. The same is true in Illinois and even Texas. Indeed, some of the largest swings in the country away from Mitt Romney, the GOP’s 2012 presidential candidate, and toward Clinton four years later came in high-income areas of Houston and Dallas, such as Texas House District 134, which went from voting 56 percent for Romney to only 40 percent for Trump. Losses in places like these will have disproportionate impact on the national GOP: they are the very neighborhoods where many of the party’s largest donors live. ..........The loss of Republican representation in party donors’ backyards would likely intensify the simmering discontent felt in some quarters toward the president.

Big losses in 2018 would harm the party for years to come. All but two governors elected this year will hold office in 2021, when the decennial redistricting will occur. Republicans used their victories in 2010 to redraw congressional and legislative maps in their favor. This has entrenched many state majorities and added close to ten seats to the GOP’s total in the House of Representatives. If Republicans should lose the governorships in Michigan, Florida, Wisconsin, and Ohio all at once, the party can start to plan for reduced membership in the coming decade.
   921. Traderdave Posted: September 14, 2018 at 11:24 AM (#5744344)
Most of legal education is a waste of time because the professors at most schools know how to be professors but don't know how to practice law. I busted my arse for one semester trying to learn every little bit of information in the casebooks / hornbooks and the lectures while trying to figure out how to apply the information to my career, getting decent but not good grades. After that, I spent 20% of that time just studying the professor rather than the material by reading the exam bank - old tests and sample answers the school maintained - and ended up with high honors at a top 25ish school. I learned, to the degree I have, to practice law during a clerkship, several informal mentorships, and first few years of practice.


I imagine the above applies to many professions, to varying degrees.
   922. Swoboda is freedom Posted: September 14, 2018 at 11:26 AM (#5744346)
majority of the country was without power and incommunicado


Well they should have left communicado, terrible place. It is right next to cognito, I believe.
   923. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 14, 2018 at 11:29 AM (#5744349)
538.com generic ballot up to a 9.1% margin.

538 Trump approval down to negative -13.8%, with his approval dipping below 40% for the first time since February.
   924. Greg K Posted: September 14, 2018 at 11:30 AM (#5744350)
I imagine the above applies to many professions, to varying degrees.

I've actually had a few conversations with a friend of mine who does set design in the film industry. She was in film school for a while before she realized that she wasn't actually learning anything useful, and so dropped out to just get whatever jobs she could land on sets. After a few years she moved up enough now that she gets regular work as an Art Director on movies/TV shows. The opportunity has come up for her to teach here and there at film schools, and so she's been picking my brain about teaching in academia.

It's funny how our experiences are entirely different because the academic/practical divide is obvious in her line of work. What you do in school and what you do in "the real world" is vastly different. But it's not really a language that translates into history. I think of history courses as a kind of practical internship in being a historian. Research, writing, and argument...that is the practical side of history (such as it is).

Of course, all of this means that perhaps I should think about teaching history differently...the majority of my students aren't training for a career in academic history.
   925. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: September 14, 2018 at 11:45 AM (#5744360)
Most of legal education is a waste of time because the professors at most schools know how to be professors but don't know how to practice law.


There are a lot of professors at law school who barely know how to teach law as well.

I busted my arse for one semester trying to learn every little bit of information in the casebooks / hornbooks and the lectures while trying to figure out how to apply the information to my career, getting decent but not good grades. After that, I spent 20% of that time just studying the professor rather than the material by reading the exam bank - old tests and sample answers the school maintained - and ended up with high honors at a top 25ish school.
If good grades are the primary goal, the ratio should be 80% of the time studying the professor (if not higher). It's true for most schooling, and law school is certainly no exception. Knowing the subject matter well is always much less important than telling the professor what they want to hear.

edit: to be fair, this is more true in areas like law where they generally test in essay form.
   926. DavidFoss Posted: September 14, 2018 at 11:51 AM (#5744363)
It's funny how our experiences are entirely different because the academic/practical divide is obvious in her line of work. What you do in school and what you do in "the real world" is vastly different. But it's not really a language that translates into history. I think of history courses as a kind of practical internship in being a historian. Research, writing, and argument...that is the practical side of history (such as it is).

How often does your school have to go through the accreditation process? Has the work needed to get a degree in history changed a lot in the past 50 years? In many of the STEM majors, they are periodically revamping their curriculum so that it doesn't get dated, but it can be a slow process. Professors get attached to their old syllabuses. Anyhow, it is the accreditation process which is in theory supposed to keep the schoolwork in sync with the careers that follow them.
   927. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 14, 2018 at 11:57 AM (#5744366)
As part of his plea deal, Paul Manafort is now cooperating with Robert Mueller.
   928. McCoy Posted: September 14, 2018 at 11:59 AM (#5744367)
In my school if you showed up you got a B. If you were a pretty female you got an A. If you were a suck up or made yourself useful to the teacher you got an A+.
   929. McCoy Posted: September 14, 2018 at 12:02 PM (#5744368)
NO COLLUSION!
   930. Traderdave Posted: September 14, 2018 at 12:05 PM (#5744371)
As part of his plea deal, Paul Manafort is now cooperating with Robert Mueller.


Does this apply only narrowly to the FARA violation he was charged with, or is it broader? CAN it be broader?

Does this/can this have any relationship to his prior conviction, ie waive or reduce sentence for that one as well?
   931. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: September 14, 2018 at 12:06 PM (#5744372)
It's funny how our experiences are entirely different because the academic/practical divide is obvious in her line of work. What you do in school and what you do in "the real world" is vastly different.
This relates back to when I taught conversational English in Japan, many moons ago.

Back in the 20th century most any Japanese kid could probably score 600 or higher on the standard English SAT (Comprehension and Grammar) because they study the written language ten ways from Sunday. But they'd never heard "gonna" for future tense, they wouldn't have been able to order food (coffee and hamburger are pronounced "koo-hii" and "han-baa'-gaa" in kana), and they would have been too damn shy to try anyway.

We had lots of debate over how to teach, and I always came down on the side of wanting to be understood over wanting to be correct. So I taught them to mostly lose the ending G in "playing" and "drinking" and to say "He is taller than me" instead of the grammatically correct "He is taller than I (am) (tall)" because the latter makes you sound... wrong.

My initial entry into that country was delayed 30 minutes. I was diverted into a classic little room with a bare light bulb and made to wait, until finally someone who spoke a little English demanded my visa. I tried to explain that as a tourist I was expecting them to just stamp my passport and be good for three months, either I didn't need a visa or they were giving it to me on the spot, and it took over ten minutes of frustration and runaround to get to the point where they were going to kick me out of the country. They wanted me to buy my return ticket home (I'd come on an open-ended one-way, planning to go on to Taiwan if Japan didn't work out) and when I pulled out my Mastercard to pay for it, their faces lit up and they clapped me on the back. "VISA! Welcome to Japan!!
   932. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 14, 2018 at 12:07 PM (#5744375)
Reportedly Manafort will cooperate with the Russia probe and has already begun doing so.
   933. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 14, 2018 at 12:09 PM (#5744380)
CNN:
Prosecutor Andrew Weissmann told the judge Manafort's plea agreement is a "cooperation agreement," and other charges will be dropped at sentencing at "or at the agreement of successful cooperation."
   934. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: September 14, 2018 at 12:12 PM (#5744382)
majority of the country was without power and incommunicado


Well they should have left communicado, terrible place. It is right next to cognito, I believe.


My supervisor unfailingly uses "incognito" when she means "incommunicado." *sigh*
   935. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: September 14, 2018 at 12:15 PM (#5744384)
Of course, all of this means that perhaps I should think about teaching history differently...the majority of my students aren't training for a career in academic history.


I attended grad school as a student in Arizona State's Public History program, which was part of a continuing national emphasis aimed at training history students for non-academic positions. I was part of the Editing & Publishing Procedures program; the other option, IIRC, was Archival Procedures (probably not the actual name).

Theoretically, I'd have gone into academic publishing (as part of the program, I interned at the U. of Arizona Press in the summer of '83), but of course there were lots more newspapers than university presses, & I already had a (rather elementary, admittedly) newspaper background.
   936. Ray (CTL) Posted: September 14, 2018 at 12:20 PM (#5744388)
As part of his plea deal, Paul Manafort is now cooperating with Robert Mueller.


I don't think people understand that cooperation doesn't necessarily mean Manafort has anything interesting to say about Russia.

He could simply be pleading guilty to crimes A and B in exchange for dropping crimes C and D, where A through D are not collusion related.
   937. DJS, the Digital Dandy Posted: September 14, 2018 at 12:25 PM (#5744389)
I've actually had a few conversations with a friend of mine who does set design in the film industry. She was in film school for a while before she realized that she wasn't actually learning anything useful, and so dropped out to just get whatever jobs she could land on sets. After a few years she moved up enough now that she gets regular work as an Art Director on movies/TV shows. The opportunity has come up for her to teach here and there at film schools, and so she's been picking my brain about teaching in academia.

A lot is just getting your foot in the door. I've done a lot of consulting in 14 years (at this point, if you're including data, I've been paid something by 18 of the 30 teams) and I think the last time I was asked about my college background was about 2005. Though that could also be because baseball is a really small community when you talk about the actual numbers of people and it's easier for you to establish a reputation, whether good or bad.
   938. zenbitz Posted: September 14, 2018 at 12:28 PM (#5744390)
Look, no one is getting fired without a complaint. But I feel like you guys have been living in box for the last 5 years.
   939. JL72 Posted: September 14, 2018 at 12:28 PM (#5744391)
I don't think people understand that cooperation doesn't necessarily mean Manafort has anything interesting to say about Russia.

He could simply be pleading guilty to crimes A and B in exchange for dropping crimes C and D, where A through D are not collusion related.


It could also mean cooperation against people unrelated to Trump or his campaign.

This is certainly an interesting development but, with out more, inconclusive right now.

That being said, in view of his role in the Trump campaign, I would surprised if he had nothing of interest to say, one way or the other.
   940. McCoy Posted: September 14, 2018 at 12:29 PM (#5744392)
So the Kavanaugh allegation is in regards to attempted rape. The New Yorker has some of the alleged details and they are not pretty.

Unless the woman comes forward I doubt this slows the process down.
   941. Traderdave Posted: September 14, 2018 at 12:31 PM (#5744393)
For the last 12 hours or so Trump's only tweets appear to be retweets of hurricane info/warnings etc.

Makes one think someone else is holding his phone right now....
   942. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: September 14, 2018 at 12:34 PM (#5744394)
Makes one think someone else is holding his phone right now....


Could be in a place where he wouldn't look, like the White House vegetable crisper.
   943. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: September 14, 2018 at 12:35 PM (#5744395)
I don't think people understand that cooperation doesn't necessarily mean Manafort has anything interesting to say about Russia.
Most people understand this very well, and object to the assumption that they don't.

Sure, some flakes will overreact. Your condescending tone implying that none of us understand the basics until you enlighten us is a perfect example of how your chosen style rankles folks. You could have replaced "I don't think people understand" with "Keep in mind that" and come across much more human and much less Lord Fauntleray.

If you cared about such things, which you've claimed not to. But then you misrepresent why people think you're a robot. So you *do* care.

/End Stalk
   944. Swoboda is freedom Posted: September 14, 2018 at 12:37 PM (#5744396)
Makes one think someone else is holding his phone right now....


Could be in a place where he wouldn't look, like the White House vegetable crisper.


They put it in his briefing books. Last place he would look.
   945. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 14, 2018 at 12:38 PM (#5744397)
It could also mean cooperation against people unrelated to Trump or his campaign.

Tony Podesta might have some concern about his involvement in Manafort's Ukraine endeavors, and possibly others. Seems more likely that any cooperation would be in areas related to the charges against Manafort, rather than areas where there wasn't enough evidence to charge him.
   946. Swoboda is freedom Posted: September 14, 2018 at 12:38 PM (#5744398)

My supervisor unfailingly uses "incognito" when she means "incommunicado." *sigh*


My boss, after we had a great quarter, gave us "kadoos" instead of kudos.
   947. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: September 14, 2018 at 12:39 PM (#5744399)
Sure, some flakes will overreact. Your condescending tone implying that none of us understand the basics until you enlighten us is a perfect example of how your chosen style rankles folks. You could have replaced "I don't think people understand" with "Keep in mind that" and come across much more human and much less Lord Fauntleray.


Now now now, a competent message board member doesn't let emotion interfere with his or her postings.
   948. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: September 14, 2018 at 12:42 PM (#5744400)

Could be in a place where he wouldn't look, like the White House vegetable crisper.


I presume there's a White House gym ... You could probably stick boatloads of illegal Haitian immigrants in there & he'd be none the wiser.
   949. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: September 14, 2018 at 12:43 PM (#5744402)
I presume there's a White House gym ...


"What's a ghaime? Ohhhh! A ghaime."
   950. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: September 14, 2018 at 12:45 PM (#5744404)
My boss, after we had a great quarter, gave us "kadoos" instead of kudos.


I saw someone yesterday or the day before use "wahlah" because he or she was too stupid to know the word "voila" -- not nearly as uncommon a miscue as one would hope. At least this was on FB rather than a work document, I think.

Yeah, yeah, I know ... What does this mean to Frank Voila?
   951. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 14, 2018 at 12:48 PM (#5744407)
I saw someone yesterday or the day before use "wahlah" because he or she was too stupid to know the word "voila" -- not nearly as uncommon a miscue as one would hope. At least this was on FB rather than a work document, I think.


I have a friend who - sigh - refuses to realize that moot is not the same as mute.
   952. Traderdave Posted: September 14, 2018 at 12:50 PM (#5744408)
Wahlah and moot/mute annoy the hell out of me but "could care less" is downright offensive.
   953. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 14, 2018 at 12:54 PM (#5744409)

I have a friend who - sigh - refuses to realize that moot is not the same as mute.
It's a moo point.
   954. Greg K Posted: September 14, 2018 at 12:58 PM (#5744411)
I think it's a disease I have. When I find out someone is annoyed by a turn of phrase I find I have the uncontrollable urge to use it around them all the time.

Much like Malcolm Tucker
   955. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 14, 2018 at 12:59 PM (#5744412)

So the Kavanaugh allegation is in regards to attempted rape. The New Yorker has some of the alleged details and they are not pretty.
Thirty-six years ago when Kavanaugh was in high school, a woman who nobody knows and who won't actually make the allegation publicly says that a drunk seventeen year old tried something but didn't actually do it. It would be bad if it were true, but if there were anything substantive, Feinstein would not have sat on this; she would've trumpeted it from the rooftops.
   956. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: September 14, 2018 at 01:00 PM (#5744413)
Tony Podesta might have some concern about his involvement in Manafort's Ukraine endeavors, and possibly others. Seems more likely that any cooperation would be in areas related to the charges against Manafort, rather than areas where there wasn't enough evidence to charge him.


Of course.

It's a big blow to Hillary Clinton's people that Donald Trump's campaign manager joins Donald Trump's lawyer in pleading guilty. Can you imagine how terrible it will be to the Clinton people if Doofus Jr gets charged and pleads guilty? My god...
   957. McCoy Posted: September 14, 2018 at 01:02 PM (#5744414)
Kind of amazing that the GOP had 65 women at the ready to vouch for Kavanaugh's reputation in high school and that his buddy from high school would remember the party and that he didn't do that.

I'm guessing everybody in political circles knew this for a long time and had prepared for when this would come out.
   958. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: September 14, 2018 at 01:05 PM (#5744417)
At least Clarence Thomas will now have someone to pal around with...
   959. McCoy Posted: September 14, 2018 at 01:07 PM (#5744418)
That's what the young female clerks are for.
   960. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 14, 2018 at 01:07 PM (#5744419)
So the Kavanaugh allegation is in regards to attempted rape. The New Yorker has some of the alleged details and they are not pretty.

No, it's less than that. So much so that Senator Feinstein did nothing with the letter for months. Didn't share it with the Committee Chairman; didn't share it with her Democratic colleagues; didn't call the letter-writer as a witness at the hearing; didn't ask Kavanaugh a single question about the incident at the hearing, and didn't include any questions about the incident in the 1,287 post-hearing written questions directed to Kavanaugh. We don't know what, if any, interactions Feinstein & her staff had with the letter-writer, but the Senator's own actions indicate that she never thought there were credible, disqualifying allegations that warranted even minimal follow-up.
   961. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: September 14, 2018 at 01:09 PM (#5744420)
@KT_So_It_Goes:
don’t personally know what to make of the kavanaugh allegations but I do know I’m ####### sure I won’t be taking any opinions from people who defended roy moore and trump on the same topic

those people are not good faith actors and for the sake of brett kavanaugh they should pipe the #### down about smear jobs because everything they have to say about it makes him look less sympathetic


If only Clapper's forensic expert didn't specialize in yearbooks, the GOP would have a great resource to help track down just what the heck is going on here.
   962. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 14, 2018 at 01:11 PM (#5744422)
940

So the Kavanaugh allegation is in regards to attempted rape. The New Yorker has some of the alleged details and they are not pretty.


Man! Having your name surface in the New Yorker has become the millennial equivalent of having Mike Wallace knock on your door with a camera crew in 1981.
   963. McCoy Posted: September 14, 2018 at 01:21 PM (#5744429)
Re 960. And yet Kavanaugh and the GOP had a well coordinated response that included 65 women who went to school with him vouching for him. Yep, nobody knew about this but just a couple of elected officials.
   964. BDC Posted: September 14, 2018 at 01:24 PM (#5744431)
If Kavanaugh sobered up and learned something from the incident, and has behaved in exemplary fashion ever since, that's actually quite a good thing. Though the rhetorical reality is that he can't actually admit that, right? This is a situation where (if the bad thing happened) he would be condemned for contrition and rewarded for mendacity – given that no conclusive proof is likely to surface after 35 years.

Morality can be weird sometimes.
   965. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 14, 2018 at 01:24 PM (#5744432)
Thirty-six years ago when Kavanaugh was in high school, a woman who nobody knows and who won't actually make the allegation publicly says that a drunk seventeen year old tried something but didn't actually do it. It would be bad if it were true, but if there were anything substantive, Feinstein would not have sat on this; she would've trumpeted it from the rooftops.

Not necessarily. If the woman doesn't want to make it public, that would be reason enough for Feinstein to respect her wish. But whatever the woman decides should be respected by all concerned, whatever her reasons.

There are plenty of reasons to oppose Kavanaugh's nomination, but unless something more substantive emerges about this incident, this isn't one of them.
   966. tshipman Posted: September 14, 2018 at 01:27 PM (#5744433)
Amusingly, the Manafort plea deal also completely neuters Trump's argument that the Special Counsel investigation has been a waste of money.

The plea deal includes forfeiture of 46mm in assets, making Mueller's operation a positive ROI investment.
   967. McCoy Posted: September 14, 2018 at 01:29 PM (#5744434)
Apparently she wanted to come forward but as the process went along she felt like it would be pointless so she withdrew and Feinstein either to cover her ass or something else released the letter to the FBI at the last possible moment. It is apparently an open secret as to who this woman is among the parties and the media.
   968. tshipman Posted: September 14, 2018 at 01:30 PM (#5744435)
Not necessarily. If the woman doesn't want to make it public, that would be reason enough for Feinstein to respect her wish. But whatever the woman decides should be respected by all concerned, whatever her reasons.


Clapper assumes that because he is a dishonest hack without morals, everyone is.

The fact that DiFi did not publicly grandstand out of respect for the victim is not a reason to discredit the allegation.
   969. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: September 14, 2018 at 01:31 PM (#5744436)
whatever her reasons.


My guess would be that she's familiar with the name "Anita Hill".
   970. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 14, 2018 at 01:35 PM (#5744438)
Re 960. And yet Kavanaugh and the GOP had a well coordinated response that included 65 women who went to school with him vouching for him. Yep, nobody knew about this but just a couple of elected officials.

In McCoy's world, presenting a defense is evidence of guilt. It's quite possible that one of his high school friends has an e-mail list that allowed her to organize a response in the 2 days since the Intercept article, or even that there had been some preliminary thought to submitting a supportive letter similar to what Kavanaugh's college and law school classmates had done, which may have assisted a subsequent rapid response on the anonymous allegation.
   971. McCoy Posted: September 14, 2018 at 01:39 PM (#5744440)
I didn't say it was evidence of guilt. It is evidence that this was known and the GOP was prepared for it.

As I said if the woman doesn't step forward and provide more details and evidence this isn't going to stop the train. Now if she releases her therapist records from 30 odd years ago and Kavanaugh's name is in them he might be in trouble.
   972. DavidFoss Posted: September 14, 2018 at 01:40 PM (#5744442)
It's quite possible that one of his high school friends has an e-mail list

I think the kids these days are using ravens.
   973. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 14, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5744443)
Apparently she wanted to come forward but as the process went along she felt like it would be pointless so she withdrew and Feinstein either to cover her ass or something else released the letter to the FBI at the last possible moment. It is apparently an open secret as to who this woman is among the parties and the media.

The word "apparently" is doing a lot of lifting there. There is no indication that the woman was ever willing to testify or even go public with her allegation, or that she was a credible witness, as indicated by Feinstein's own inaction.
   974. McCoy Posted: September 14, 2018 at 01:42 PM (#5744444)
All we have is the New Yorker article so far. Blanket dismissals seem a little premature at this point.
   975. tshipman Posted: September 14, 2018 at 01:45 PM (#5744447)
All we have is the New Yorker article so far. Blanket dismissals seem a little premature at this point.


Never too early for Clapper to try to discredit a potential rape victim.
   976. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: September 14, 2018 at 01:46 PM (#5744449)
As a Roy Moore supporting Trumpkin, Clapper has a lot of practice.
   977. zenbitz Posted: September 14, 2018 at 01:46 PM (#5744450)
It seems like the Democrats are just trying to drag out the process, for good and obvious reasons.

   978. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 14, 2018 at 01:53 PM (#5744452)
Clapper assumes that because he is a dishonest hack without morals, everyone is.

The fact that DiFi did not publicly grandstand out of respect for the victim is not a reason to discredit the allegation.
DiFi pretended to have information that Kavanaugh had spoken to someone at Trump's law firm about the Mueller investigation. She... didn't. Dishonest hack without morals (a/k/a "career politician") about fits.

Obviously this was leaked in the desperate hope they could find someone else to come forward and make an allegation. One person results in a he said/she said. (Or, in this case, he said/someone-else-claims-she-said-even-though-she-refuses-to-come-forward.) A second one and it's off to the races. (At which point, say hello to Justice Barrett; safest thing to do is nominate a woman.)
   979. McCoy Posted: September 14, 2018 at 01:54 PM (#5744453)
The process was already going to go on for another week. This coming out now basically prevents any real discussion on the topic outside of the GOP saying let's start this over.

It might pressure some like say Collins from voting yes in the final vote but I doubt it will be enough without further evidence.

So it boils down to another talking point or reason for voters to come out and not vote for Republicans.
   980. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: September 14, 2018 at 01:58 PM (#5744454)
Collins wants to know if it's too late to get that money...
   981. tshipman Posted: September 14, 2018 at 01:59 PM (#5744455)
DiFi pretended to have information that Kavanaugh had spoken to someone at Trump's law firm about the Mueller investigation. She... didn't. Dishonest hack without morals (a/k/a "career politician") about fits.


That's not true. She didn't have *proof* that Kavanaugh had spoken to someone at Kasowitz. Just because there wasn't audio or video recording of it, which is probably the threshold required for perjury, doesn't mean she didn't have information that it occurred.

Again, you're also willing to defend Kavanaugh's obvious misleading answers in 2004/06 about Leahy's staffers' memos.
   982. McCoy Posted: September 14, 2018 at 02:00 PM (#5744456)
Re 978. Nah, it came out now so DiFi didn't have to ask questions during the questioning period but still gets the cover of saying she did her part with the information she was given.
   983. perros Posted: September 14, 2018 at 02:02 PM (#5744458)
that a drunk seventeen year old tried something but didn't actually do it.


Why don't you quote us the law on false imprisonment and kidnapping. Even though they obviously do no apply to the snot-nosed kid of a very wealthy man.
   984. tshipman Posted: September 14, 2018 at 02:03 PM (#5744459)
that a drunk seventeen year old tried something but didn't actually do it.


Btw, this is abhorrent. You wouldn't use this language if it were your daughter.
   985. McCoy Posted: September 14, 2018 at 02:04 PM (#5744460)
Besides the whole tried something but didn't actually do it excuse is beyond stupid.

I tried to kill the guy but the bastard just wouldn't die.

I guess that means you're innocent.
   986. perros Posted: September 14, 2018 at 02:08 PM (#5744462)
The woman, who has asked not to be identified, first approached Democratic lawmakers in July, shortly after Trump nominated Kavanaugh. The allegation dates back to the early nineteen-eighties, when Kavanaugh was a high-school student at Georgetown Preparatory School, in Bethesda, Maryland, and the woman attended a nearby high school. In the letter, the woman alleged that, during an encounter at a party, Kavanaugh held her down, and that he attempted to force himself on her. She claimed in the letter that Kavanaugh and a classmate of his, both of whom had been drinking, turned up music that was playing in the room to conceal the sound of her protests, and that Kavanaugh covered her mouth with his hand. She was able to free herself. Although the alleged incident took place decades ago and the three individuals involved were minors, the woman said that the memory had been a source of ongoing distress for her, and that she had sought psychological treatment as a result.


Nothing to see here. Move along.
   987. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: September 14, 2018 at 02:09 PM (#5744463)
@NormReapecter
Here is a prearranged list of 65 women who all say I have not sexually assaulted them that I carry around with me

I am very Normal
   988. SouthSideRyan Posted: September 14, 2018 at 02:10 PM (#5744464)
do they give a nobel prize for attempted chemistry?
   989. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 14, 2018 at 02:13 PM (#5744466)
That's not true. She didn't have *proof* that Kavanaugh had spoken to someone at Kasowitz. Just because there wasn't audio or video recording of it, which is probably the threshold required for perjury, doesn't mean she didn't have information that it occurred.
She didn't have anything. Which is why she coyly wouldn't name the person he supposedly spoke to, or describe where or when this conversation took place, or produce the source of her information. But she implied that she did in fact have evidence. She also invited people from Parkland to the hearings, so please let's not talk about how DiFi respects anyone, okay?


In any case, the fact remains that we are talking about a 36-year old secondhand allegation about a high school student with (at this time) negative two witnesses -- and that count includes the alleged victim -- that was held back until after the hearings were over and then leaked.
   990. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: September 14, 2018 at 02:14 PM (#5744468)
The letter was also sent to the office of Senator Dianne Feinstein. As the ranking minority member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Feinstein was preparing to lead Democratic questioning of Kavanaugh during his confirmation hearing weeks later. The woman contacted Feinstein’s office directly, according to multiple sources.

...Feinstein’s decision to handle the matter in her own office, without notifying other members of the Senate Judiciary Committee, stirred concern among her Democratic colleagues. For several days, Feinstein declined requests from other Democrats on the Judiciary Committee to share the woman’s letter and other relevant communications. A source familiar with the committee’s activities said that Feinstein’s staff initially conveyed to other Democratic members’ offices that the incident was too distant in the past to merit public discussion, and that Feinstein had “taken care of it.”

Ladies and gentlemen, meet the 2018 Democratic Party.
   991. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: September 14, 2018 at 02:16 PM (#5744470)
Thirty-six years ago when Kavanaugh was in high school, a woman who nobody knows and who won't actually make the allegation publicly says that a drunk seventeen year old tried something but didn't actually do it. It would be bad if it were true, but if there were anything substantive, Feinstein would not have sat on this; she would've trumpeted it from the rooftops.


WTF is wrong with you? This is equivalent to the "bimbo eruption" defense that Clinton backers used. Disgusting then and disgusting now.

Ladies and gentlemen, meet the 2018 Democratic Party.


Need to clear out dead wood.
   992. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: September 14, 2018 at 02:21 PM (#5744473)
Sources familiar with Feinstein’s decision suggested that she was acting out of concern for the privacy of the accuser, knowing that the woman would be subject to fierce partisan attacks if she came forward. Feinstein also acted out of a sense that Democrats would be better off focussing on legal, rather than personal, issues in their questioning of Kavanaugh. Sources who worked for other members of the Judiciary Committee said that they respected the need to protect the woman’s privacy, but that they didn’t understand why Feinstein had resisted answering legitimate questions about the allegation. “We couldn’t understand what their rationale is for not briefing members on this. This is all very weird,” one of the congressional sources said. Another added, “She’s had the letter since late July. And we all just found out about it.”

She may be the most worthless Democrat in the Senate. And there is some very steep competition.
   993. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 14, 2018 at 02:26 PM (#5744474)

Ladies and gentlemen, meet the 2018 Democratic Party.
I'm a bit puzzled at the notion that Feinstein's sin is that she failed to spread unsubstantiated smears more widely, rather than that she strategically leaked them.

Let's assume the accounts are generally accurate: Feinstein received a letter making heinous, but unproven and likely unprovable, accusations, from someone who refused to come forward. What would a person in DiFi's situation, acting in good faith, do? Obviously try to convince the letter writer to come forward. But if the person won't, what's left? Out the letter writer against the letter writer's wishes? Publish a fully anonymous smear?
   994. Swoboda is freedom Posted: September 14, 2018 at 02:26 PM (#5744475)
And yet Kavanaugh and the GOP had a well coordinated response that included 65 women who went to school with him vouching for him. Yep, nobody knew about this but just a couple of elected officials.

I would think they would have that prepared for Roe v Wade, or other attacks that he was anti-woman. They do prepare for these things.
   995. Ray (CTL) Posted: September 14, 2018 at 02:27 PM (#5744476)
I don't think people understand that cooperation doesn't necessarily mean Manafort has anything interesting to say about Russia.

Most people understand this very well, and object to the assumption that they don't.


I don't think they do. If they did I'd have a car they wouldn't high five over this news.
   996. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: September 14, 2018 at 02:28 PM (#5744477)
Publish a fully anonymous smear?

D-d-d-doy.
   997. Ray (CTL) Posted: September 14, 2018 at 02:29 PM (#5744479)

Not necessarily. If the woman doesn't want to make it public, that would be reason enough for Feinstein to respect her wish. But whatever the woman decides should be respected by all concerned, whatever her reasons.


Not if she's lying.
   998. perros Posted: September 14, 2018 at 02:31 PM (#5744481)

WTF is wrong with you?


The Marquis de Sade was the first libertarian.
   999. Ray (CTL) Posted: September 14, 2018 at 02:31 PM (#5744482)
Feinstein has no morals, and no shame.

Just like Trump.
   1000. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: September 14, 2018 at 02:33 PM (#5744483)
Phillip
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