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Wednesday, September 05, 2018

OTP 2018 September 4: Candidate for governor pitches politics at Jacksonville baseball game

The Democratic candidate for governor spent his Labor Day in Jacksonville and attended a Jumbo Shrimp game at the baseball grounds.

Tallahassee Mayor Andrew Gillum called for his Republican opponent, Ron DeSantis, to have a more civil campaign, but New4Jax political analyst Rick Mullaney doesn’t think the political attacks will slow down.

 

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 05, 2018 at 08:26 AM | 1496 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off topic, politics

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   1401. PreservedFish Posted: September 10, 2018 at 05:31 PM (#5741797)
This site was always accidental way station for sabermetric discussion and since the host and leaders of this site did little to foster that discussion it died down when sabermetrics advanced and went in-house.


I've seen this suggested few times recently as a reason for the decline of the site, but I'm not convinced. The best statwork might be done in secret by teams now, but just look at Fangraphs to see that there are still a million sabermetric topics worth discussing, fresh data, fresh perspectives, fresh young statheads that need to learn it all. Sabermetrics didn't go away. If there were a Voros-style bombshell in the stats world tomorrow, there's only about a 50% that it actually gets linked here.
   1402. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 10, 2018 at 05:31 PM (#5741798)
Pelosi may well still be the best man for the job.

First transgender Speaker!
   1403. Chicago Joe Posted: September 10, 2018 at 05:33 PM (#5741801)
It's something of a parlour game to imagine potential Speakers from outside the House.


So you’ve played this “parlor game”? What did you come up with?
   1404. Shredder Posted: September 10, 2018 at 05:36 PM (#5741803)
The politics crap has been here from the start and been a major part of the discussion here. Not Jim would tell you that the discussion part of this site was always the least trafficed part of the site.
Not enough Saber superstars playing for BTF darling teams being traded for journeman outfielders anymore.
   1405. Ray (CTL) Posted: September 10, 2018 at 05:37 PM (#5741804)
Geoffrey Owens’ income suffered when Bill Cosby was accused of sexual assault by more than 50 women and later convicted of sexual assault.

Owens, 57, played Cosby’s son-in-law on the long-running series “The Cosby Show” from 1985 to 1992. But when reruns were pulled from syndication during Cosby’s legal battle, it took a toll on the actor’s wallet.

“Yes, it impacted me financially,” Owens explained to People of his royalty checks. “At the time that the show was pulled, that did make a difference in our income.”


Do reruns of The Cosby Show really need to be pulled? As far as I'm aware he doesn't rape anyone on the show.

Similar question for whether Roseanne had to delete Roseanne. Are we watching for the content of the characters or for the character of the actors?
   1406. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 10, 2018 at 05:37 PM (#5741805)
Dan just wants everyone to pay more attention to his Really Cool Scientifically Tested Projection Stats. He doesn't like it when nobody does.

Sabermetrics was kind of the raison d’etre for the site to begin with. And he did get a job from it, so, success!


And more power to him. Better he's on ESPN than nannying this site to death.
   1407. McCoy Posted: September 10, 2018 at 05:38 PM (#5741806)
Re 1401. I think you missed the point. What did this site so to bring advanced statistical discussions to this site? What did they do to create new discussions? And the answer is very little. As I said this place was an accidental community of early sabermetric conversations but it was never really the leaders of this sites goal to be that kind of place. This place isn't fangraphs or prospectus it's a largely random baseball content generator and now that the internet is mainstream the need for any baseball content at all has died.
   1408. Chicago Joe Posted: September 10, 2018 at 05:38 PM (#5741807)
Not enough Saber superstars playing for BTF darling teams being traded for journeman outfielders anymore.


Not enough ballparks being renamed.*
   1409. Ray (CTL) Posted: September 10, 2018 at 05:38 PM (#5741808)
Question for the New Year: Does Andy (a) not know what white nationalism is, or (b) not know what the word "express" means?

Jolly read it in a trusted scholarly review or at least had his guardian read it to him.


Seems like Sam and others had the same scholarly review read to them.
   1410. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: September 10, 2018 at 05:40 PM (#5741810)
Do reruns of The Cosby Show really need to be pulled? As far as I'm aware he doesn't rape anyone on the show.

Well....
A Season 7 episode of "The Cosby Show" features a joke about Dr. Huxtable, played by Bill Cosby, having a secret barbecue sauce that makes people want to have sex. At the end of the episode, Huxtable even suggests to his wife, Claire, that he has "a cup of it up on the night table" and that they should "go on up and have some sauce."

:)
   1411. DJS, the Digital Dandy Posted: September 10, 2018 at 05:41 PM (#5741811)

And more power to him. Better he's on ESPN than nannying this site to death.


I actually took a senior position at FanGraphs a couple of months ago. With FG's permission, I'm still allowed to pop up on ESPN, but less often.
   1412. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 10, 2018 at 05:41 PM (#5741812)
Question for the New Year: Does Andy (a) not know what white nationalism is, or (b) not know what the word "express" means?

Question for anyone: Does David (a) think there's any substantive difference between white nationalism and the xenophobic/Eurocentric/racebaiting/Muslimbaiting sort of garbage that the speakers at those Restoration Weekend are promoting, or (b) not know what Steve Bannon, Milo Yiannopoulos and Sebastian Gorka represent? (HINT: It's nothing that any self-respecting New Year's celebrant would want to defend.)

So Andy is going with (c) both of the above; he doesn't know what either means. Hint: the word "express" does not mean "probable" or "obvious" or "substantively similar." It means -- literally -- that it was stated rather than implied. Can you find anyone, anywhere, saying, "The purpose of this conference is to promote white nationalism"? If not, then it was definitionally not the express purpose. Was it the implied purpose? Doesn't seem to be. Not sure that there was a singular purpose at all, but the general theme of many of these speakers seems to be "Islam sucks," which would actually be substantively different than white nationalism, yes.

Keep in mind that Andy has shown no evidence whatsoever -- none -- that he has any idea what any of these conferences was. All he knows is that he read a story in the Washington Post and that's all he needs to know. (Of course, Andy doesn't even know what he reads; nothing in the article says what the express purpose of the conferences was.) You don't have to like Horowitz or the speakers to avoid making stuff up as Andy does.


And I've also never been to a Trump rally, but I've got a pretty good idea what goes on there.

But tell you what, Mr. Lawyer: Get yourself into one of those conferences and make a full report. And while you're at it, pick up a program for me that's autographed by all the speakers. It'd fit nicely into my collection of The Citizen.
   1413. DJS, the Digital Dandy Posted: September 10, 2018 at 05:41 PM (#5741813)
And the answer is very little. As I said this place was an accidental community of early sabermetric conversations but it was never really the leaders of this sites goal to be that kind of place.

The goal back then was to do what SBNation managed to do.
   1414. Ray (CTL) Posted: September 10, 2018 at 05:45 PM (#5741815)
But tell you what, Mr. Lawyer:


This doesn't actually rebut anything he said.
   1415. DJS, the Digital Dandy Posted: September 10, 2018 at 05:48 PM (#5741816)
This doesn't actually rebut anything he said.

"Hey, I made a claim and can't back any of it up, but if you want to dispute me, you need to build a time machine. Here's an article I clearly didn't read that has five or six words I recognize."

There, saved Jolly some time.
   1416. Chicago Joe Posted: September 10, 2018 at 05:49 PM (#5741817)
Didn’t SBNation provide lots of original content focused on individual teams? It seems that the original content you guys provided was more sporadic and focused on more specific phenomena.
   1417. DJS, the Digital Dandy Posted: September 10, 2018 at 05:52 PM (#5741821)
Didn’t SBNation provide lots of original content focused on individual teams? It seems that the original content you guys provided was more sporadic and focused on more specific phenomena.

They got farther than we did, obviously! We planned to have each blog basically its own site under an umbrella.
   1418. Chicago Joe Posted: September 10, 2018 at 05:56 PM (#5741824)
Ah. All that DailyKos money beat you to the punch.
   1419. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: September 10, 2018 at 05:58 PM (#5741825)
I disagree vehemently with like 90% of SBB's posts, but you know what I like about him? You guys can't bully him away and it makes you SO mad that the schtick a bunch of you pulled to kill this site doesn't work with him (or Ray for that matter).


If it hasn't been clear for a while now, Dan is essentially a Gamergate troll.
   1420. BDC Posted: September 10, 2018 at 06:00 PM (#5741827)
Nancy is more unpopular than Mitch


I'm pleased with the way my Moreland meme took off.
   1421. DJS, the Digital Dandy Posted: September 10, 2018 at 06:01 PM (#5741832)
Ah. All that DailyKos money beat you to the punch.

It is what it is, really. Would've been cool for BTF to have scaled into something bigger, but I can hardly complain at least personally with how things turned out. A success may have resulted in more administration-type work for me and right now, I don't have to deal with any of that kind of thing - I get paid to do exactly the things I like to do, except be mean to Jolly.
   1422. Chicago Joe Posted: September 10, 2018 at 06:04 PM (#5741834)
It is what it is, really. Would've been cool for BTF to have scaled into something bigger, but I can hardly complain at least personally with how things turned out.

Wasn’t it really the technology which made SBNation what it is? Seems like their format (grotesque as it is) gave them a nice headbstart.
   1423. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: September 10, 2018 at 06:04 PM (#5741835)
I continue to oppose state-sponsored assassination by drone.


I continue to oppose state-sponsored assassination by anything. Including lethal injection.
   1424. PreservedFish Posted: September 10, 2018 at 06:09 PM (#5741836)
Vigilante assassination is hunky dory though.
   1425. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: September 10, 2018 at 06:10 PM (#5741838)
What did this site so to bring advanced statistical discussions to this site? What did they do to create new discussions? And the answer is very little. As I said this place was an accidental community of early sabermetric conversations but it was never really the leaders of this sites goal to be that kind of place.


Most of the early stathead leaning of old Primer was due to the fact that its base audience/members migrated over from rec.sport.baseball. It was a happenstance of the demographic rather than any concerted effort or plan. In fact, Jim's original idea for Primer was to be something like "my brother's baseball site." I never really grokked what he was talking about there, but my feeling was that he was aiming for an intelligent sports site that still allowed "normal fans" - i.e. his "brother" - to participate and learn.

Primer didn't really create sabermetricists, so much as it gave pre-existing ones an open forum in the Web 2.0 world to hash out ideas. Thus the eventual migration to the name "ThinkFactory."
   1426. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: September 10, 2018 at 06:10 PM (#5741839)
If it hasn't been clear for a while now, Dan is essentially a Gamergate troll.


An incel?
   1427. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 10, 2018 at 06:12 PM (#5741840)
I've seen this suggested few times recently as a reason for the decline of the site, but I'm not convinced. The best statwork might be done in secret by teams now, but just look at Fangraphs to see that there are still a million sabermetric topics worth discussing, fresh data, fresh perspectives, fresh young statheads that need to learn it all. Sabermetrics didn't go away. If there were a Voros-style bombshell in the stats world tomorrow, there's only about a 50% that it actually gets linked here.

This is probably the worst location for a BBTF meta-thread, but BBTF was never a purely sabermetric site, IMHO. There always were a large number of posters whose interest was in incorporating more advanced stats into their fandom/interest in baseball, rather than getting into the weeds of such calculations. There are other places to get both now, and they make a better effort at it, too. The only two Newsblog articles today are the Primer Dugout & OmniChatter, both user-submitted content. There's no effort to systematically post articles here, and many have complained of the delays in approving user-submissions. The main page still has Game Chatters from 2014! It's Furtado's site, and he can do what he wants with it, but he hasn't done much for a long time. OTP didn't cause the decline of BBTF by itself, but it certainly didn't help that it became the most heavily-trafficked feature of the site, and so much of it was non-substantive posts attacking other posters. Who would sample that and decide to stick around?
   1428. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: September 10, 2018 at 06:12 PM (#5741842)
Vigilante assassination is hunky dory though.


Never underestimate the value of catharsis.
   1429. Chicago Joe Posted: September 10, 2018 at 06:25 PM (#5741845)
That ThinkFactory thing still pisses me off. And Prospectus a) was younger (I think) and b) never even used it.
   1430. Chicago Joe Posted: September 10, 2018 at 06:27 PM (#5741846)
OTP didn't cause the decline of BBTF by itself, but it certainly didn't help that it became the most heavily-trafficked feature of the site, and so much of it was non-substantive posts attacking other posters. Who would sample that and decide to stick around?


OTP was a symptom, not a cause. IMO, should have left it like it was, as opposed to snowflaking it. Most of the memorable threads were massive digressions.
   1431. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 10, 2018 at 06:31 PM (#5741848)
I disagree vehemently with like 90% of SBB's posts, but you know what I like about him?


He makes you feel smart?
   1432. McCoy Posted: September 10, 2018 at 06:32 PM (#5741849)
Most of the threads back in the day rarely had conversations going in them and quickly moved of baseball conversations. So it was always untrue that the off topic stuff killed this site. Go back to 2002 and a good thread would be considered 40 or 50 posts. One or two every few months might get into the hundreds. That's why the Petco thread was so notorious. Until that point we had never seen anything like it here. A sustained conversation involving lots of different people over many days was unheard of here. The closest thing to it would be the DIPS wars that when on at roughly the same time but those never got as many posts or last as many days involving as many people.
   1433. Chicago Joe Posted: September 10, 2018 at 06:33 PM (#5741850)
And, McCoy, that was fun.
   1434. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: September 10, 2018 at 06:37 PM (#5741852)
I just wanna know who the religious bigots are.
   1435. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: September 10, 2018 at 06:38 PM (#5741853)
We used to have really great discussions about sabermetrics, some of the DIPS ones were absolutely must reads IMO.

The problem IMO is mostly due to the site:

1) submissions are a joke, after a couple of my submissions never appeared (or appeared 48 hours after I submitted) I quit submitting. What's the point? So you can't break news here or talk about breaking news in a consistent timely manner.

2) site in general is incredibly outdated. FFS the TOS hasn't been updated since 2006 and the software ain't much newer. Can't embed any media, can't tag posters and site is awful on mobile.

So you've got an out of date platform, a lack of timely content, and because of that -- most likely a rapidly shrinking poster base. There seems to be a core of 20-30 posters and that's about it. I cannot remember the last time a new poster in any thread, baseball related or OTP, made an entrance.

I still really appreciate the variety of voices in the OTP thread and Walt's posts in the baseball threads, but it feels like if the site doesn't change things up (new software please) in a year or two it won't really exist anymore, at least as a discussion forum.
   1436. Chicago Joe Posted: September 10, 2018 at 06:47 PM (#5741856)
Narrator: and that was the last post ever at Baseball Think Factory.
   1437. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: September 10, 2018 at 06:52 PM (#5741858)
I just wanna know who the religious bigots are.


There was one guy who was, I believe, Mormon, and said something about feeling unwelcome to speak of his beliefs or something. It was more or less snowflaking in the early days, but Dan has latched onto it as his absolute go-to anecdote about the Evil Liberal Mob driving the Pure Conservative Angels of Light away. It's mostly bullshit, like 99% of what Dan spits out via anything but a pre-built spreadsheet these days.
   1438. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: September 10, 2018 at 06:53 PM (#5741860)
So you've got an out of date platform, a lack of timely content, and because of that -- most likely a rapidly shrinking poster base.


That, and web forums in general are dying. Twitter has replaced the basic idea that was the driving force behind Baseball Primer.
   1439. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 10, 2018 at 06:56 PM (#5741862)
When was BBTF about trolling celebrities?
   1440. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 10, 2018 at 06:58 PM (#5741864)
There was one guy who was, I believe, Mormon, and said something about feeling unwelcome to speak of his beliefs or something. It was more or less snowflaking in the early days, but Dan has latched onto it as his absolute go-to anecdote about the Evil Liberal Mob driving the Pure Conservative Angels of Light away.


To show their appreciation, as soon as Dan is in the ground he’ll be posthumously baptized Mormon and get his own planet.
   1441. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: September 10, 2018 at 07:03 PM (#5741869)
Well, if we can force the GOP to nominate Trump and force people to vote for him - destroying BBTF is tiddly winks.

Hard to say if we just haven’t learned to use our powers yet or just got bored with them and just do these weird things on a lark... you know, the super powerful version of eating paste.

   1442. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: September 10, 2018 at 07:04 PM (#5741870)
I mean, technically the speaker doesn't have to be serving in the House


In that case, when they take control of the house in November, elect Obama speaker, and then impeach Trump and Pence.
   1443. McCoy Posted: September 10, 2018 at 07:08 PM (#5741872)
I do believe he would be disqualified from the line of succession.
   1444. BDC Posted: September 10, 2018 at 07:13 PM (#5741873)
Yes, I would have to say that art wall has identified the main reason for BBTF "dying" – though honestly I don't know that it's died. It seems exactly as lively as ever. But in America, if you fail to grow exponentially, you "die." Weird culture, ours.

Anyway, when you can click instantly to add or comment on content via mobile apps FB, Twitter, Instagram, and eleven dozen cooler things I've probably never heard of, the decade+ -old, {sit down at the laptop and type long comments} kind of discussion board is not going to grow. OTOH maybe such things will never go away, either. There have to be forums for slow-reacting, ruminative middle-aged people :-D
   1445. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: September 10, 2018 at 07:13 PM (#5741874)
Huh.... I don’t know about that - the 22nd amendment specifically says “elected” ONLY.

It also has carve outs for “filling out”a term. He couldn’t run for re-election, but I think he could serve.
   1446. McCoy Posted: September 10, 2018 at 07:19 PM (#5741875)
Well, let's just say it is highly doubtful this SCOTUS would side in favor of Obama.
   1447. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: September 10, 2018 at 07:19 PM (#5741876)
I do believe he would be disqualified from the line of succession.


22nd Amendment:

Section 1. No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once. But this Article shall not apply to any person holding the office of President when this Article was proposed by the Congress, and shall not prevent any person who may be holding the office of President, or acting as President, during the term within which this article becomes operative from holding the office of President or acting as President during the remainder of such term.


Not seeing it. Obama's eligible to be president. He's just not eligible to be elected president.
   1448. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: September 10, 2018 at 07:23 PM (#5741880)
But, to troll Republican's even harder, replace Obama with Hillary. There is your overturning the election Ray.
   1449. BDC Posted: September 10, 2018 at 07:23 PM (#5741881)
There has to be some sort of speculative fiction about a dictator continually maintaining power via some loophole in the Vice Presidency. Isn't that one of the gimmicks in House of Cards, for instance? Another series I missed …
   1450. McCoy Posted: September 10, 2018 at 07:25 PM (#5741883)
You also have the 12th amendment but yes, if you think the 22nd doesn't make him ineligible then you aren't going to care about the 12th. The issue is of course plenty of people will view it differently and challenge the decision which means it would go before the courts.

   1451. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: September 10, 2018 at 07:30 PM (#5741886)
What does the 12th have to do with it?
   1452. BDC Posted: September 10, 2018 at 07:37 PM (#5741889)
I had forgotten what the 12th Amendment was, so I looked it up. It's the one that reads "Congress shall make no tag-backs, you poopy-head."
   1453. McCoy Posted: September 10, 2018 at 07:46 PM (#5741891)
12th basically says (for this discussion) that the VP has to be eligible to be president to become president and that also applies to the rest of the line. So like I said if you think the 22nd doesn't rule him out period then the 12th won't apply.
   1454. DJS, the Digital Dandy Posted: September 10, 2018 at 07:51 PM (#5741892)
If it hasn't been clear for a while now, Dan is essentially a Gamergate troll.

Well, that's a new one, at least.
   1455. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: September 10, 2018 at 07:52 PM (#5741893)
of course, it’s moot because A) Obama would never do it, B) most of his fans wouldn’t go for it either, and C) he actually wouldn’t make a good speaker either - his biggest flaw as a politician is that he’s not much of an arm-twister
   1456. DJS, the Digital Dandy Posted: September 10, 2018 at 07:53 PM (#5741894)
A sustained conversation involving lots of different people over many days was unheard of here. The closest thing to it would be the DIPS wars that when on at roughly the same time but those never got as many posts or last as many days involving as many people.

You're equating the long comment threads with traffic. There was little correlation - it was the content we had from 2001-2005 or so that drove the traffic.
   1457. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: September 10, 2018 at 07:55 PM (#5741895)
Yes, I would have to say that art wall has identified the main reason for BBTF "dying" – though honestly I don't know that it's died. It seems exactly as lively as ever. But in America, if you fail to grow exponentially, you "die." Weird culture, ours.


Interesting that both McCoy and I ID'd the DIPS threads as particularly good. IMO the site should have a permanent sticky for a general SABER thread and OTP and Pop culture should be again folded into one thread. I never had any problem with talking culture and politics side by side and talking about one often leads to the other.
   1458. Chicago Joe Posted: September 10, 2018 at 07:56 PM (#5741896)
But we care more about comments than traffic.
   1459. DJS, the Digital Dandy Posted: September 10, 2018 at 07:57 PM (#5741897)
But we care more about comments than traffic.

But if we're talking about things that killed the site as a growing concern, it's relevant.
   1460. McCoy Posted: September 10, 2018 at 07:59 PM (#5741898)
Re 1456. Um, no I wasn't. I wasn't equating anything to anything. Merely regaling the thread with primer history.
   1461. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: September 10, 2018 at 07:59 PM (#5741899)
For all intensive porpoises.
   1462. McCoy Posted: September 10, 2018 at 08:00 PM (#5741901)
Re 1459. The powers that be killed this site by having a bad plan and executing it poorly. Blaming your consumers for your failures is bad form.
   1463. DJS, the Digital Dandy Posted: September 10, 2018 at 08:00 PM (#5741902)
Re 1456. Um, no I wasn't.

Then I apologize for misunderstanding.
   1464. DJS, the Digital Dandy Posted: September 10, 2018 at 08:02 PM (#5741903)
Blaming your consumers for your failures is bad form.

Oh, it's definitely my fault for being too wishy-washy at chucking away the rotten apples. I took *years* too long to ban Kevin, for example.
   1465. McCoy Posted: September 10, 2018 at 08:02 PM (#5741904)
DIPS by the way rapidly devolved into some petty insults. After about the the third or fourth thread on it the conversations were basically the airing of petty grievances, the need to win an argument, and the telling off of your opponent.
   1466. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: September 10, 2018 at 08:56 PM (#5741923)
What is the long term plan for the site? I'd donate if it led to something or I could turn ads off.
   1467. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: September 10, 2018 at 08:58 PM (#5741925)
@byyourlogic:
saw a Mike Perry (MMA fighter) vid where he says Kaepernick is right in the sense that cops are bad, but that you have to stand with Trump, and also he's bad at football (?). it's important to remember that most people are like this and have no idea what they think till they talk
   1468. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 10, 2018 at 09:00 PM (#5741928)
I know plenty of MMA fighters who like Trump. He’s a big blustering ####### who never faces consequences for being an #######. That’s why some people get involved in fighting in the first place. That’s the dream.
   1469. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 10, 2018 at 09:51 PM (#5741950)
The problem IMO is mostly due to the site:

1) submissions are a joke, after a couple of my submissions never appeared (or appeared 48 hours after I submitted) I quit submitting. What's the point?


Same thing has happened to me, and no, Danny the Deposed Nanny, these have all been non-political baseball submissions.

So you've got an out of date platform, a lack of timely content, and because of that -- most likely a rapidly shrinking poster base. There seems to be a core of 20-30 posters and that's about it. I cannot remember the last time a new poster in any thread, baseball related or OTP, made an entrance.

I don't think there's really been that much decline. To quote the Home Page, "Currently there are 50 fearless Primates, 1 anonymous Primates and 171 lurkers viewing the site", and for a Monday night with few games on that's not all that out of line with what it's been in the past. There've always been way more lurkers than people who are commenting, but I'm not sure that ratio compares unfavorably to other sites that traffic in strong opinions.

The OTP threads are polarized, but that just reflects the country. The stat-oriented threads don't inspire the same passion they once did, but that's because the statheads have largely won the argument. I wish there were more threads about baseball history, but it seems like the few we get always devolve into stat comparisons with little information that goes much beyond BB-Reference charts. The underlying problem is that there's a very small number of Primates who care all that much about events that happened before they first discovered the game, or personalities other than the Really Big Names who played before that time. It is what it is, but neither politics nor the mechanics of the site are the underlying cause of whatever may be wrong with it.
   1470. PreservedFish Posted: September 10, 2018 at 10:02 PM (#5741962)
I remember during both of the last exceptional World Serieses multiple longtime lurkers came out of the woodwork to comment. Imagine lurking this site for a decade or more!
   1471. Omineca Greg Posted: September 10, 2018 at 10:07 PM (#5741967)
The thing I don't get is whatever happened to make Larry Blackmon so cyncial, it's like his whole perspective curdled.

Check it out...back in '81 he was into romance...big time...

Cause we all love freaky dancin' and romancin'
Let's do it some more
You can't fail once you're freakin'
So, shake your pants and we'll party for sure
We'll party for sure

Blackmon/Jenkins


See, so positive...and confident. Maybe it's just because I'm old...but I would kill to have that feeling...to never fail once I was freakin'. Sometimes I shake my pants, and there's no party [SAD FACE].

But enough about me. This is about Larry Blackmon. He lived for freaky dancin' (and by extension, romancin'). He freaky danced everywhere!

You ready? New York, freaky dancin'
L. A. freaky dancin'
Atlanta, freaky dancin'
Cincinnati, freaky dancin'

Shy Town, freaky dancin'
Detroit, freaky dancin'
Newport freaky dancin'
And our friends in Baton Rouge

You ready? D.C. freaky dancin'
Dallas, Fort Worth, freaky dancin'
Houston, freaky dancin'
Philadelphia P.A. freaky dancin'

The Carolina's, freaky dancin'
Cleveland, freaky dancin'
New Orleans, freaky dancin'
They're as freaky as can be

If there's some places that you think we missed
How can you say that with a groove like this
The other places are just waiting to break
Just bring it on on, baby rock and shake


But that was 1981. By 1986, he was singing a different song entirely...

Give us music, we can use it, we need to dance
We don't have the time for psychological romance
No romance, no romance, no romance for me, mama
Come on, baby, tell me what's the word

Blackmon/Jenkins (This one has something special for all you Star Trek fans!)

That was only five years! No romance, no romance, no romance for him. How did he become such a cynic? He knows the price of everything, and the value of waving your hands in the air like you just don't care. Five years! Sure, 1981-1986 was close enough to the beginning of The Decline that the drop hadn't become that precipitous yet, you had it pretty good. I think I saw you in an ice-cream parlour, drinking milk shakes cold and long. Smiling and waving and looking so fine.

Don't think you knew you were in this post.

I don't know, I don't have the answers, a lot can happen in Five Years. You can go from being a waitress in a cocktail bar to having the world at your feet. Two TV sets and two Cadillac cars, ain't gonna help us at all. I found out I was just a link in your chain. Chain chain chain. Shucking steel just like a slave, and she had the nerve to kick me out. Feeding the baby, she's all alone. She turns on TV, guess who she sees? Can I make it any more obvious?

Could have been anything.
   1472. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: September 10, 2018 at 10:43 PM (#5741987)
Repoz was the life blood of this site. I understood less than 5 percent of his references and it was glorious.
   1473. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 10, 2018 at 10:51 PM (#5741993)
Various comments from various posters on the brief but perhaps imminent future of Nancy Pelosi:
Any value Pelosi brings to the table is nullified, and then some, by her galvanizing effect on the opposing side
...
Yeah, because the GOP sure won't go after whoever comes after her, no way, no sir. Once she is gone the GOP won't have anyone to attack and will totally be forced to campaign on the merits of issues and not scare tactics. /snark
...
Anyone that gets to the top "galvanizes" the opposition. It is beyond stupid for one to actually care about that and make decisions on that. The next Dem leader will somehow mysteriously galvanize the opposition for the 100th straight year. We'll be agog at how this rare and mythical event happens without Nancy Pelosi but it will still happen.
...
This seems like evidence - Pelosi's Favorable/Unfavorable Rating Is Worse Than Trump's. She's currently at 28.6% Favorable, 48.7% Unfavorable, a -20.1% gap. Looking at the chart at the link, it appears that has been steady for quite some time. But maybe Bitter Mouse is right and other House Democrats are even more unpopular.

Paul Ryan's approval rating today: 29.9% favorable, 49.3% unfavorable. The Galvanizing Gang grows.

On the date Ryan became Speaker, his public approval was positive, at +9%. Ryan's approval has fallen 28.6% in two years. But surely that bad luck won't befall the next non-Pelosi Speaker for the Democrats.

John Boehner was -32%. Newt Gingrich was -25%. Harry Reid was -21%. Suddenly Pelosi's minus-20 approval is looking above average.
   1474. Howie Menckel Posted: September 10, 2018 at 11:11 PM (#5742006)
pass
   1475. Srul Itza Posted: September 10, 2018 at 11:17 PM (#5742008)
pass


"Eh, not worth the aggravation" was cuter.
   1476. Srul Itza Posted: September 10, 2018 at 11:19 PM (#5742009)
I know plenty of MMA fighters who like Trump.


Isn't that a pastime/vocation that involves getting hit in the head on a regular basis?
   1477. tshipman Posted: September 10, 2018 at 11:33 PM (#5742016)
Most of the early stathead leaning of old Primer was due to the fact that its base audience/members migrated over from rec.sport.baseball. It was a happenstance of the demographic rather than any concerted effort or plan. In fact, Jim's original idea for Primer was to be something like "my brother's baseball site." I never really grokked what he was talking about there, but my feeling was that he was aiming for an intelligent sports site that still allowed "normal fans" - i.e. his "brother" - to participate and learn.

Primer didn't really create sabermetricists, so much as it gave pre-existing ones an open forum in the Web 2.0 world to hash out ideas. Thus the eventual migration to the name "ThinkFactory."


This is my take as well. This place was a historical accident that quickly got out-competed by better designs and better content.

New people stopped coming here, and no website can survive without new people.
   1478. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: September 10, 2018 at 11:46 PM (#5742018)
Paul Ryan's approval rating today: 29.9% favorable, 49.3% unfavorable. The Galvanizing Gang grows.

On the date Ryan became Speaker, his public approval was positive, at +9%. Ryan's approval has fallen 28.6% in two years. But surely that bad luck won't befall the next non-Pelosi Speaker for the Democrats.

John Boehner was -32%. Newt Gingrich was -25%. Harry Reid was -21%. Suddenly Pelosi's minus-20 approval is looking above average.


Well that was my point earlier. National Approval/Disapproval ratings for legislators for whom the poll respondents are but a very small minority of the legislator's constituents strike me as meaningless. 100% of poll responders in Trump approval ratings are his constituents. Less than 1% in Pelosi's (or any other Congrescritter's) are.
   1479. PreservedFish Posted: September 10, 2018 at 11:50 PM (#5742019)
no website can survive without new people

Objection.
   1480. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: September 10, 2018 at 11:52 PM (#5742021)
Chris Hayes shared this article he wrote about his experience with UNDECIDED VOTERS in the 2004 election and it has one bit that's so so so so so so good I wanted to share:

Perhaps the greatest myth about undecided voters is that they are undecided because of the "issues." That is, while they might favor Kerry on the economy, they favor Bush on terrorism; or while they are anti-gay marriage, they also support social welfare programs. Occasionally I did encounter undecided voters who were genuinely cross-pressured--a couple who was fiercely pro-life, antiwar, and pro-environment for example--but such cases were exceedingly rare. More often than not, when I asked undecided voters what issues they would pay attention to as they made up their minds I was met with a blank stare, as if I'd just asked them to name their favorite prime number.

The majority of undecided voters I spoke to couldn't name a single issue that was important to them. This was shocking to me. Think about it: The "issue" is the basic unit of political analysis for campaigns, candidates, journalists, and other members of the chattering classes. It's what makes up the subheadings on a candidate's website, it's what sober, serious people wish election outcomes hinged on, it's what every candidate pledges to run his campaign on, and it's what we always complain we don't see enough coverage of.

But the very concept of the issue seemed to be almost completely alien to most of the undecided voters I spoke to. (This was also true of a number of committed voters in both camps--though I'll risk being partisan here and say that Kerry voters, in my experience, were more likely to name specific issues they cared about than Bush supporters.) At first I thought this was a problem of simple semantics--maybe, I thought, "issue" is a term of art that sounds wonky and intimidating, causing voters to react as if they're being quizzed on a topic they haven't studied. So I tried other ways of asking the same question: "Anything of particular concern to you? Are you anxious or worried about anything? Are you excited about what's been happening in the country in the last four years?"

These questions, too, more often than not yielded bewilderment. As far as I could tell, the problem wasn't the word "issue"; it was a fundamental lack of understanding of what constituted the broad category of the "political." The undecideds I spoke to didn't seem to have any intuitive grasp of what kinds of grievances qualify as political grievances. Often, once I would engage undecided voters, they would list concerns, such as the rising cost of health care; but when I would tell them that Kerry had a plan to lower health-care premiums, they would respond in disbelief--not in disbelief that he had a plan, but that the cost of health care was a political issue. It was as if you were telling them that Kerry was promising to extend summer into December.

To cite one example: I had a conversation with an undecided truck driver who was despondent because he had just hit a woman's car after having worked a week straight. He didn't think the accident was his fault and he was angry about being sued. "There's too many lawsuits these days," he told me. I was set to have to rebut a "tort reform" argument, but it never came. Even though there was a ready-made connection between what was happening in his life and a campaign issue, he never made the leap. I asked him about the company he worked for and whether it would cover his legal expenses; he said he didn't think so. I asked him if he was unionized and he said no. "The last job was unionized," he said. "They would have covered my expenses." I tried to steer him towards a political discussion about how Kerry would stand up for workers' rights and protect unions, but it never got anywhere. He didn't seem to think there was any connection between politics and whether his company would cover his legal costs. Had he made a connection between his predicament and the issue of tort reform, it might have benefited Bush; had he made a connection between his predicament and the issue of labor rights, it might have benefited Kerry. He made neither, and remained undecided.
   1481. zenbitz Posted: September 11, 2018 at 12:43 AM (#5742025)
Clearly, one should rule such sheep with an iron fist /TGF
   1482. Chicago Joe Posted: September 11, 2018 at 12:52 AM (#5742026)
Yeah, Repoz was a big loss. Furtado’s lead-ins are trash.
   1483. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 11, 2018 at 01:05 AM (#5742027)
538's last ten individual poll generic ballot margins that have been included in their system, but only from pollsters they've rated B+ or above -- most recent poll first:

10%
9%
2%
13%
11%
14%
11%
11%
8%
11%

(Includes nine different pollsters; two of the polls come from the same source: Ipsos.)
   1484. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 11, 2018 at 01:34 AM (#5742029)
But tell you what, Mr. Lawyer: Get yourself into one of those conferences and make a full report. And while you're at it, pick up a program for me that's autographed by all the speakers. It'd fit nicely into my collection of The Citizen.
You don't have to go to the conferences. They're on Youtube, if you ever bothered to do any more research than read an article in either the WaPo or NYT before forming an opinion on a topic.

Not that this has anything to do with the point that you either lied or didn't (as always) understand the words you were using. These conferences were not for the express purpose of promoting white nationalism. What's worse, even the one source you used didn't claim that they were, but you said it anyway.
   1485. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 11, 2018 at 01:46 AM (#5742030)
@mattgertz:
The Daily Caller has published an article theorizing that the Anonymous op-ed in the NYT is "a hoax, concocted within" the paper.

Author is a "forensic psychologist." The evidence is a set of bullet points detailing "the Left’s constant hoaxes, lies and fake news."

That's it.
Isn't that the Daily Caller News Foundation? (Or the Daily Cellar, as I am going to keep calling them because it amuses me to do so.) If you read down in the Twitter comment thread, some people have pointed out that the author is not so much a forensic psychologist but a former forensic psychologist who, er, had some legal issues.

(I have attempted to verify this claim, and while I believe it to be correct, I cannot be 100% sure. It's the right name, the right profession, the right geographic location. But the name is not exactly unique.)
   1486. Lassus Posted: September 11, 2018 at 06:01 AM (#5742032)
Isn't that the Daily Caller News Foundation?

JE's favorite source of news, yes.
   1487. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 11, 2018 at 06:03 AM (#5742033)
Will Bunch:
With a potential Category 4/5 Hurricane Florence bearing down on North Carolina, this is a good time to remember that in 2012 NC's right-wing extremist legislature passed a law barring the use of climate science in setting coastal policies.
   1488. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 11, 2018 at 06:25 AM (#5742034)
That was only five years! No romance, no romance, no romance for him. How did he become such a cynic? He knows the price of everything, and the value of waving your hands in the air like you just don't care. Five years! Sure, 1981-1986 was close enough to the beginning of The Decline that the drop hadn't become that precipitous yet, you had it pretty good.


But how do you reconcile such a worldview with the sunny, innocent optimism he offered here:

My eyes roll in my head
I toss and turn in my bed
In the morning when I think about you
(yes I do)
Simply put, you're the reason why
Even though I'm real shy
(real shy)
I attempt to look my best for you
(indeed I do, just for you)
Cause you affect me, fascinate me
I thank heaven for the things that you do
It's like candy
You sure are sweet - Sweet!
You're so dandy
You're taking my appetite - but it's all right


We’ve seen references to confections used as metaphors for attraction before, such as the works of Leslie Gore and Bow Wow WOW, but rarely do they convey such desperate longing as Blackmon does here. These are the words of a man so besotted with longing that he can’t keep his emotions hidden anymore than he could keep his athletic supporter inside his pants.
   1489. Lassus Posted: September 11, 2018 at 07:57 AM (#5742037)
and it makes you SO mad

Hilarious source.


Also, the assertion that the site's demise and decreased traffic couldn't possibly be blamed on those running the site is... familiar.
   1490. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: September 11, 2018 at 08:05 AM (#5742038)
How many libertarians are ignoring calls to evacuate the hurricane landing zone? Lots? LOL!
   1491. PreservedFish Posted: September 11, 2018 at 08:22 AM (#5742040)
These questions, too, more often than not yielded bewilderment. As far as I could tell, the problem wasn't the word "issue"; it was a fundamental lack of understanding of what constituted the broad category of the "political." The undecideds I spoke to didn't seem to have any intuitive grasp of what kinds of grievances qualify as political grievances.


When I was 21 I was in Stockholm and I hung out with these random Swedes I met somehow and their number one question about America was whether or not Jay Leno's "Jaywalking" skit, in which he asks random people simple questions and receives alarmingly shockingly stupid answers, was real.

In India a couple years later the #1 question I got was whether or not pro wrestling was staged - apparently a topic of some controversy at the time.
   1492. McCoy Posted: September 11, 2018 at 08:28 AM (#5742041)
The first tax cut bill worked so well let's do another!
   1493. McCoy Posted: September 11, 2018 at 08:30 AM (#5742042)
In this day and age true undecided voters are free and far between and mostly low information voters. They are mostly worthless as a voting group to cater too.
   1494. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: September 11, 2018 at 08:32 AM (#5742043)
In India a couple years later the #1 question I got was whether or not pro wrestling was staged - apparently a topic of some controversy at the time.


In India, there's Gandhi and Tiger Jeet Singh, and not necessarily in that order.
   1495. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 11, 2018 at 08:33 AM (#5742044)
But tell you what, Mr. Lawyer: Get yourself into one of those conferences and make a full report. And while you're at it, pick up a program for me that's autographed by all the speakers. It'd fit nicely into my collection of The Citizen.

You don't have to go to the conferences. They're on Youtube, if you ever bothered to do any more research than read an article in either the WaPo or NYT before forming an opinion on a topic.

Not that this has anything to do with the point that you either lied or didn't (as always) understand the words you were using. These conferences were not for the express purpose of promoting white nationalism. What's worse, even the one source you used didn't claim that they were, but you said it anyway.


When conferences feature the likes of David Horowitz, Steve Bannon, Milo Yiannopoulos and Sebastian Gorka, you don't need to know a single damn other thing about them to know what they're promoting, whether you or the Post want to call it white nationalism or not.

But if you want to insist that what they're promoting isn't technically white nationalism, let's just say that those speakers are known for their xenophobia with emphatic ethnic and anti-Muslim undertones, and two of them (Bannon and Gorka) have worked for the most racist president since Woodrow Wilson. Anyone who would willingly attend four conferences with speakers like that deserves whatever inferences can be applied to him.

And FTR, here's a Post story on the 2014 conference:
The crowd rose to its feet and roared its approval as Sen. Jeff Sessions bounded onto the stage at the Breakers, an exclusive resort in Palm Beach, Fla. Stephen Miller, an aide to the Alabama Republican, handed him a glass trophy honoring his bravery as a lawmaker.

“Heyyyy!” Sessions yelled out to the crowd.

The ceremony that day, in November 2014, turned out to be a harbinger: It brought together an array of hard-right activists and a little-known charity whose ideas would soon move from the fringes of the conservative movement into the heart of the nation’s government.

The man behind the event was David Horowitz, a former ’60s radical who became an intellectual godfather to the far right through his writings and his work at a charity, the David Horowitz Freedom Center. Since its formation in 1988, the Freedom Center has helped cultivate a generation of political warriors seeking to upend the Washington establishment. These warriors include some of the most powerful and influential figures in the Trump administration: Attorney General Sessions, senior policy adviser Miller and White House chief strategist Stephen K. Bannon.

Long before Trump promised to build a wall, ban Muslims and abandon the Paris climate accord, Horowitz used his tax-exempt group to rail against illegal immigrants, the spread of Islam and global warming. Center officials described Hillary Clinton as evil, President Barack Obama as a secret communist and the Democratic Party as a front for enemies of the United States.

The Freedom Center has declared itself a “School for Political Warfare,” and it is part of a loose nationwide network of like-minded charities linked together by ideology, personalities, conservative funders and websites, including the for-profit Breitbart News. ...

You sure do pick some sweet people to defend.
   1496. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 11, 2018 at 08:35 AM (#5742048)
The new thread is up and running.
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