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Wednesday, September 05, 2018

OTP 2018 September 4: Candidate for governor pitches politics at Jacksonville baseball game

The Democratic candidate for governor spent his Labor Day in Jacksonville and attended a Jumbo Shrimp game at the baseball grounds.

Tallahassee Mayor Andrew Gillum called for his Republican opponent, Ron DeSantis, to have a more civil campaign, but New4Jax political analyst Rick Mullaney doesn’t think the political attacks will slow down.

 

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 05, 2018 at 08:26 AM | 1496 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off topic, politics

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   401. PreservedFish Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:08 AM (#5739679)
Pence is a dolt, couldn't be him.
   402. Lassus Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:08 AM (#5739680)
Incidentally, yet another reason I don't think it's Pence besides the ones I've said throughout this discussion is that I can't see the Times letting him write that anonymously. It's just too newsworthy if the veep himself is saying these things.

This is sound reasoning. Conversely, for all the various pushback about the problems the Times has caused by even publishing this, if it was openly Pence (very very very unlikely), the result would probably be a level of chaos they might not want to own.

I think that the Times also knows they are sitting on the exclusive when they are able to reveal.
   403. zenbitz Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:08 AM (#5739681)
OK. So this anon Op Ed smells funny as hell. I feel like I feel when Comey's second note about Hillary's server went public in late October. The motivations of the parties involved are ... quite murky. I guess we decided that Comey was trying to proactively appear balanced because the FBI had ongoing investigations of members of Trump's campaign, and didn't think HRC was going to lose anyway. Or it was some kind of bizzaro backfireing CYA... but that's all water under the bridge now.

So this Op-ED.

Why this letter? Why Now? Obviously it's either Pence or someone who wants people to think it might be Pence. What is the purpose of releasing this op-ed 1 month before the mid-terms? Did NYT choose the timing, like they've been sitting on the letter for a few weeks or months? Was it timed to "corroborate" Bernstein's book? That seems... odd. Why was it timed while Kavanough "hearings" or on going?

Things we think we know:
1) NYT claims that author wishes to remains anonymous for fear of losing job.
2) Author claims they are a "solid republican" trying to uphold conservative values (by thwarting the president).
3) Letter uses bizarre literary constructs that point to Pence (Lodestar is a word that I have literally never heard and I am a pretty well-read educated white 47 year old man).

So lets apply some logic here. It appears - at the base level - that the author of the letter wants to encourage the removal of POTUS via impeachment or some weird interpretation of 25th A. That would implicate Pence or someone who wants Pence as president - he personally has the most to gain. This is also supported by (2) because a "real" conservative who thinks Trump is a moron. However, (1) would then be red herring (Pence can't be fired and has no future in politics beyond POTUS aspirations). Furthermore, given (3) this is an *extremely* clumsy way to try to get Pence in over Trump. Like, so unbelievably clumsy that it is probably ... well OK, it does seem to fit the competence level of this administration to a T. There's no ADVANTAGE to "Team Pence" if people think Pence wrote the letter, I would assume the opposite. If Senate Republicans would consider impeachment (already unlikely) it's extremely distasteful to reward this act (if VP is indeed responsible).

Still - it seems more likely that whomever wrote this hates Pence almost as much as they hate Trump. Like it is specifically a poison pill. That scares the crap out of me, but maybe this is too deep.

Now, back to timing. Is this meant to distract from Kavenough (whom (2) would certainly appreciate) or to harden some kind of resolve against him, maybe get 3 GOP senators to bail? That is one hail freaking mary, but when it's 4th-and-forever you gotta take your shot. (2) would -- if we take at face value -- certainly want to MINIMIZE negative effects for the GOP on the mid-terms, so whatever (2) decides it should have that in mind. Both of these cause me to think (2) is actually false. A "real" conservative who is a fan of the administrations policies would never allow such a letter to be printed until after Kavenough is confirmed and after the mid terms.

The book timing seems like it's NYT at work, but it could be the most parsimonious explanation for the timing.

Summary:
(1) I think we can ignore. It's just cover for the NYT.
(2) I am leaning towards being a lie or exaggeration -- something said to make conservatives who are uneasy about Trump the man take them seriously.
(3) The only reason to think it's really Pence or pro-Pence is that the author is a total moron.

I think it's either fake or a mole. Some opportunist who got a job in the Admin but hates it and is no fan of the GOP. Maybe even a disgruntled white supremacist.
Either that or it's the stupidest attempted coup in history... which sadly I cannot rule out by demonstrated competence.

   404. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:09 AM (#5739682)
   405. Lassus Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:09 AM (#5739683)
Pence is a dolt, couldn't be him.

I admit it was hard to see how that writing style could be his. It's the style of yet another egomaniac, and whatever else Pence is, he doesn't seem to be that.
   406. Morty Causa Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:11 AM (#5739685)
But of course the question is retarded, as there are zillions of laws that give the government the power to make decisions about the male body. In fact, pretty much every law ever passed gives the government power to make decisions over people's (including men's) bodies.

And each of them applies equally to female bodies, you simpering moron


The law only facially superficially applies to both sexes. Anyone who is connected to the real world and truth knows that is in fact not the reality. Begin with the criminal laws and the criminal system and the different ways it treats the two sexes. And more and more people are seeing through this and, like the guy in the movie Network, aren't going to take it anymore.
   407. PreservedFish Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:11 AM (#5739686)
I think that Pence lacks the imagination to be in a "resistance."
   408. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:12 AM (#5739687)
I'm not really sure I'm on the Booker train in general.

I'm not sure I'm on the Booker train in general, either, because I don't know all that much about him. But I love what he's doing today.
The fight over access to Kavanaugh’s records from his time in the Bush White House intensified in the opening moments of the hearing Thursday morning. Sen. Cory Booker (D-N.J.) said he is prepared to violate Senate rules and release confidential committee documents — and to risk the consequences.

Booker had questioned Kavanaugh Wednesday night about his use of the term “naked racial set-aside” and said he would make public documents backing up that assertion.

“I openly invite and accept the consequences of releasing that email right now,” Booker said. “The emails being withheld from the public have nothing to do with national security.”

Under the committee’s rules, Booker could be expelled from the Senate for releasing such records.

Senate Majority Whip John Cornyn (R-Tex.) angrily responded to Booker and referred to his potential aspirations for higher office, saying “running for president is no excuse for violating the rules of the Senate.” Cornyn argued that “this is no different from the senator deciding to release classified information that is deemed classified.”

Has there ever been a more blatantly political use of the "classified" designation?
   409. Lassus Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:12 AM (#5739688)
re: #403, I've also seen talk in the liberal tubes that it was a planned false flag by the White House, secretly supporting Trump but not TELLING Trump of this distraction/DEEP STAITZ plan to galvanize.

All options seem on the table.
   410. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:14 AM (#5739692)

I'm not entirely certain the author would cop to writing it if asked anyway, but I'm increasingly sure it's McGahn.

I don't think so. First, it just doesn't sound (to me) like the voice of a lawyer. Second, the author implies that he's not the only one; a number of his peers are acting similarly. But McGahn sits alone; he doesn't really have peers in that sense. Maybe a deputy WH counsel. But not WH counsel.


Incidentally, yet another reason I don't think it's Pence besides the ones I've said throughout this discussion is that I can't see the Times letting him write that anonymously. It's just too newsworthy if the veep himself is saying these things.


But again - in most WH? Sure... In this one? Given the WH Counsel's role, I can easily see him being pulled into a LOT more situations than a WH Counsel normally would. I mean - maybe you could, but I'd have trouble naming any WH Counsel since John Dean... I'm sure I'd know the name if you named Obama's... And I vaguely recall Alberto Gonzalez was initially for W.

The nature of Trump just seems like the WHC is going to find himself a LOT more involved with 'day to day' stuff than usual.

I'm with you on Pence. I don't think the chances are absolutely zero he wrote it - but the lodestar stuff is just reading waaaaayyyyy too much into things.

HERE'S a scary idea, though - and I'm not sure where I'd land on this... What if it wasn't Pence, but say, someone in the cabinet coordinating with Pence?

I.e., actually some cabal figuring Trump's time is just about up... so - "they" decide it's time to just get the ball moving, get it over with, and try to save what they can of the GOP and this administration?

This is why I don't wholly dismiss your/the "bureaucratic coup" idea - even if I don't buy it yet. It could very well be something quite a bit more nefarious. It could even be BOTH nefarious and necessary. It could be nefarious for nefarious purposes and necessary for necessary purposes, but with the nefariousness being the prime mover.

Much as I like to see Trump collapse in a flopsweat of his own fury - I do inherently agree that there very could be plenty just all forms of bad about this.
   411. BDC Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:16 AM (#5739693)
Lodestar is a word that I have literally never heard


I'm not sure I've ever seen it. I reckoned it meant the pole star, since a "lodestone" is a magnet, a natural compass. And I'm right, but I don't even recall a poem that uses the word. It does not seem to appear in Shakespeare, the King James Bible, the Faerie Queene, or Paradise Lost.
   412. Howie Menckel Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:17 AM (#5739695)
it's as if Post 388 never existed, Post 408.
:)

and agree with all on Pence, and how NYT would be grossly irresponsible to let any VP anonymously trash the POTUS. he's "off the board."
   413. PreservedFish Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:17 AM (#5739697)
I use the word "lodestar" not infrequently. Good word.
   414. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:19 AM (#5739698)
The book timing seems like it's NYT at work, but it could be the most parsimonious explanation for the timing.


????

What does Bob Woodward have to do with the NYT?

I mean, I'm sure the op-ed timing was very much in consort with the book -- it's basically an op-ed saying "That book? All true...".

But I see no real way that the NYT (or Woodward, for that matter) have anything active to do with it. The ASAO certainly knew what s/he was doing with the timing, but to the extent that there's a 'conspiracy' foot -- it's wholly within the WH.
   415. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:19 AM (#5739699)
Without wanting to sound condescending, I trust the instincts and the determination of the rising demographic groups** more than I fear the instincts and power of those who still cling to the past. I don't believe in cliches like "historical inevitability", or a left wing version of "tomorrow belongs to [the young***]", but I do believe that Trumpism is heading for a crash and burn, with or without Trump still being able to cling to his job.

Oh, Andy, don't worry about it. You'll always sound dumb more than condescending.

"Something that I insisted could never happen in the first place... well, it won't happen again. I mean, I have no evidence whatsoever, but I 'feel' it strongly, so that's enough."


To which you counter with "if there's a .00001% chance of its ever happening again, let's shed crocodile tears if it happens even once, even if the circumstances are extraordinary".

Not only is it dumb on its own terms, but the notion that whoever you include in "rising demographic groups" are necessarily more liberal -- in an attitudinal sense, not a political sense -- is misplaced. "Clinging to the past" is not what makes someone illiberal. The French revolutionaries didn't cling to the past; didn't make them liberals. There's nothing about the way these groups act in the U.S. today that's liberal. Do they favor gay marriage and LGBTQIAMNOTASERIOUSPERSON rights? Sure. But supporting groups one approves of isn't what makes one liberal.

David, if you want to spend the rest of the day giving us your definition of "liberal", have at it. You can cite every source from Hayek to D'Souza and I won't even bother to rebut you. The floor is all yours.

As always, you cling to your slippery slope without feeling compelled to provide a single plausible repeat scenario of what we're now witnessing. But give yourself a lifetime and maybe you'll be able to think of one.

The plausible repeat scenario is "it happens again."


Okay, after giving us your definition of "liberal", you can follow with your definition of "plausible".
   416. The Fallen Reputation of Billy Jo Robidoux Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:19 AM (#5739700)
The "lodestar method" is a way of determining attorneys fees in a class action.
   417. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:19 AM (#5739701)

Wow; 376 upped BM's platitude quotient to a whole new level, and managed to get it completely wrong. Our system is not based on individual judgment. Of course people who work for the government are expected not to break the law, but other than that, their job is to follow orders, not make policy.
   418. BDC Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:20 AM (#5739704)
I use the word "lodestar" not infrequently. Good word


Well I'm certainly going to start using it now. It sounds like a good name for a model of pickup truck.

HAH! International Harvester used to build a truck called the Loadstar.
   419. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:22 AM (#5739709)
It is getting to be a while ago. The last birth year from which a draft was taken was 1952. Those people are now 66 years old. There was a drawing for 1953 births, but no one was taken. Priority numbers were set for people born through 1956 in case the draft was reinstated, but it wasn't.
Males still have to register with the Selective Service, though, with significant penalties if they don't, and women don't.
   420. manchestermets Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:23 AM (#5739711)
So lets apply some logic here. It appears - at the base level - that the author of the letter wants to encourage the removal of POTUS via impeachment or some weird interpretation of 25th A. That would implicate Pence or someone who wants Pence as president - he personally has the most to gain.


Does he though? A Democrat landslide in the mid-terms and Trump impeached/forced to resign turns Pence into Gerald Ford, a lame duck marking time until he's beaten by 2020's version of Jimmy Carter*. Serving 8 years as veep puts him as a string front runner in the 2024 election with a chance to do things.

*Thing I don't know: was 1976 Jimmy Carter regarded more highly than post-presidency Carter? I kind of get the impression from a distance that pretty much any Democrat could have beaten Ford in 1976 but that might be a function of the regard Carter's presidency is held in today. Which again is largely a function of things like Marge Simpson saying "Shush" when Lisa points out that she voted for Carter twice.
   421. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:25 AM (#5739712)

I don’t understand the morality of why anyone would write the piece, because it seems pretty obvious to me that what it’s going to do is foster more paranoia

I basically agree with this. I don't really question the NYT's decision to publish the op-ed, but I don't really understand the author's decision to write it. If what you're doing is so important for the country, then just *keep doing it*. Announcing it publicly, without attaching your name to it to give it real credibility, is counterproductive and dangerous.
   422. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:25 AM (#5739714)

Like seriously you ####### troglodyte. The Dem presidential ticket in 2016 was a Clinton and a prolife Catholic.
No, you're lying about Kaine. Kaine is one of those fake Democratic "personally pro-life but..." Catholics, which is like being "personally anti-child pornography but..." He's pro-choice, not pro-life.

And a Clinton of 2016 is not a Clinton of 1992.
   423. , Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:26 AM (#5739716)
If the writer isn't a mole, then, basically, the GOP has decided the republic is dead and they're all lining up to try for the throne.

Fun times.

----

If Booker releases the documents and is expelled, and then elected president, we'd have a follow on to Trump a guy who got thrown out of the senate. That doesn't seem like progress, even though I think everyone in Washington should, practically, understand that the old rules are gone.
   424. manchestermets Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:27 AM (#5739718)
While everyone should agree that an unelected clique usurping the power of the president is a bad thing, isn't the story really that Trump's incompetence allows such a thing to happen? For all the mockery directed at W, it seems unlikely that if he directed a member of his administration to draft a letter pulling the country out of a trade agreement and the letter was never drafted that he wouldn't follow up on it before too long. Basically, get him the hell out of office one way or another, then worry about the coup after it's been prevented by doing that.
   425. DavidFoss Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:27 AM (#5739719)
Males still have to register with the Selective Service, though, with significant penalties if they don't, and women don't.

Sure, I remember filling out that postcard and mailing it back in. I'm just trying to put an age on the last generation of draftees. Seems like just yesterday there were all these WWII vets and now the last generation of draftees is now over 65.

Back on topic, the last year of the draft was the same year as Roe v. Wade: 1973.
   426. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:28 AM (#5739722)
Wow; 376 upped BM's platitude quotient to a whole new level, and managed to get it completely wrong. Our system is not based on individual judgment. Of course people who work for the government are expected not to break the law, but other than that, their job is to follow orders, not make policy.


But we don't KNOW what order/policy they disobeyed!

Since none of us can get Woodward's book till next week - we only know of one FULL situation where an 'order' was disobeyed (i.e., Mattis and "No, we're not going to assassinate Assad") and we know that Cohn literally stole an EO off Trump's desk to prevent him from axing an existing trade deal with SK.

The former is a valid refusal to break the law to follow an illegal order. The latter is a crime to prevent Trump from making a dumb decision.

So... I guess we DO know that we've got one of each. We don't know what other thwarting was done/being referred to by the ASAO.

Is it 10 of the former and 5 of the latter? Just one of each? 75-25? 50-50?

If and when it all comes out in the wash - I very much suspect we're going to find plenty of both. Outright illegal actions committed by aboministration officials to stop Trump from doing objectively dumb things - but objectively dumb things he's entitled to do.... AND proper disobeying/thwarting of things that were illegal.

We'll probably be spending the next 5 years separating the wheat from the chaff.
   427. PreservedFish Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:29 AM (#5739725)
I take the op-ed at face value. Trump is a dangerous moron. Any staunch Republican, or indeed any human with a shred of dignity and concern for the nation, would be working to frustrate him. We have decades of gossip about this White House ahead of us. People are going to be continually shitting their pants when they realize how profoundly unfit he was for the office and how horrible, stupid and un-American his instincts were.
   428. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:31 AM (#5739729)
*Thing I don't know: was 1976 Jimmy Carter regarded more highly than post-presidency Carter? I kind of get the impression from a distance that pretty much any Democrat could have beaten Ford in 1976 but that might be a function of the regard Carter's presidency is held in today. Which again is largely a function of things like Marge Simpson saying "Shush" when Lisa points out that she voted for Carter twice.

Carter seemingly came from nowhere to win the nomination, but when you look at the electoral map, it's highly doubtful that any other Democrat could've beaten Ford that year. Carter won every southern and border state with the sole exception of Virginia, and Ford won Michigan, Illinois and California along with virtually every other western state.
   429. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:31 AM (#5739731)
335

I doubt the constitution specifically addresses a president self pardoning, because the idea of giving someone such broad powers wasn't even considered, because it's so ridiculous on its face.


That wouldn't be a President, it would be a King.
   430. , Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:33 AM (#5739733)
We'll probably be spending the next 5 years separating the wheat from the chaff.

It'll be a popular pastime in the gulag.
   431. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:33 AM (#5739735)
336

Of course it's obvious. Doesn't make it less retarded. Only women -- regardless of what transgender fanatics think -- can get pregnant, so laws about pregnancy directly affect only women's bodies. But that is a consequence of biology, not of discrimination.


If men could get pregnant, abortion would be considered a sacrament, not a sin.
   432. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:33 AM (#5739736)

Does he though? A Democrat landslide in the mid-terms and Trump impeached/forced to resign turns Pence into Gerald Ford, a lame duck marking time until he's beaten by 2020's version of Jimmy Carter*. Serving 8 years as veep puts him as a string front runner in the 2024 election with a chance to do things.


If the GOPe powers that be see that Trump's time is up, sure he does. These people can read polls. After spending most of the summer treading water in the low 40s, Trump is once again bobbing under 40%. That's going to get worse, not better. Add to that - it's the GOP that has suddenly made impeachment a mid-term election issue... I mean, I thought - and probably still think - it's just a "rally the base (to save Trump)" thing.... but if I could put on my tinfoil? Maybe it's not. Maybe it's laying groundwork for something the Powers that GOP Be know is coming, something they know that maybe Mueller knows which is inevitably going to make Trump's removal a done deal.

So... you start prepping for the eventuality.
   433. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:34 AM (#5739737)
I always thought "rare" in the Clinton formulation meant that contraception should be so freely available


That's because you, unlike David regarding this particular subject, are not a complete ####### moron. Note that David's basic rhetorical gambit in this debate is to dredge up Clapper's favorite lie that the left wing WINGS control the Democratic party. It's classic projection as deflection.
   434. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:37 AM (#5739748)
"WASHINGTON – Sen. Cory Booker challenged his colleagues to try to expel him for breaking rules he opposes Thursday after promising to release an email including comments by Judge Brett Kavanaugh about racial profiling that has been deemed confidential.

"I’m going to release the email about racial profiling," Booker said at the start of the third day of Kavanaugh's confirmation hearings in the Senate Judiciary Committee. "I understand the penalty comes with potential ousting from the Senate."


Both Kamala Harris and Corey Booker are running for POTUS in 2020, and honestly, getting booted from the Senate by GOP partisans for quoting elements of Kavanaugh's legal history that they want suppressed would only improve Booker's profile in the '20 Dem primaries.
   435. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:37 AM (#5739749)
If Booker releases the documents and is expelled, and then elected president, we'd have a follow on to Trump a guy who got thrown out of the senate. That doesn't seem like progress, even though I think everyone in Washington should, practically, understand that the old rules are gone.

At the risk of incurring dear David's wrath once again, I think you might want to consider how in the hell that racial profiling email of Kavanaugh's ever got labeled "classified" (or "confidential") in the first place.
   436. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:37 AM (#5739750)
While everyone should agree that an unelected clique usurping the power of the president is a bad thing, isn't the story really that Trump's incompetence allows such a thing to happen? For all the mockery directed at W, it seems unlikely that if he directed a member of his administration to draft a letter pulling the country out of a trade agreement and the letter was never drafted that he wouldn't follow up on it before too long. Basically, get him the hell out of office one way or another, then worry about the coup after it's been prevented by doing that.


Yeah.

Like I said last page - I really, really do not get this larger silence from the WH on the "thwarting". They're almost universally wrapped up in this outrage over disloyalty and anonymity and FAKE NEWS and all the other nonsense.

It's as if they actually don't even care about the REAL stuff Trump wanted to do that he was apparently stopped from doing.

Who knows... maybe it was so embarrassing that they'd rather not litigate those unknown items. Maybe Trump - loose cannon, wildly flip-flopping as he is - has even convinced himself he wasn't "thwarted" but rescinded or arrived at the decision himself.
   437. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:38 AM (#5739751)
347

In what way would the nation be worse off after a coup?


Pence becomes President, declares martial law and the US changes its name to "Gilead."
   438. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:39 AM (#5739753)
Both Kamala Harris and Corey Booker are running for POTUS in 2020, and honestly, getting booted from the Senate by GOP partisans for quoting elements of Kavanaugh's legal history that they want suppressed would only improve Booker's profile in the '20 Dem primaries.

It'd amount to little more than John Lewis's arrest record in the 1960's. And of course there'd be nothing to stop them from getting right back into the Senate in the unlikely event that they ever were to be ejected.

EDIT: And since it would take a 2/3 vote of the Senate for Booker to be ejected, I think we can scratch that possibility off the list.
   439. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:42 AM (#5739760)
Lodestar is a word that I have literally never heard

I'm not sure I've ever seen it. I reckoned it meant the pole star, since a "lodestone" is a magnet, a natural compass. And I'm right, but I don't even recall a poem that uses the word. It does not seem to appear in Shakespeare, the King James Bible, the Faerie Queene, or Paradise Lost.
It's a common word for lawyers, though the context is usually different; it's usually used in discussing attorneys' fees.

EDIT: Coke to Billy Jo R.
   440. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:42 AM (#5739761)

I'd love to see what the reaction will be if the op-ed author turns out to be Stephan Miller...

Is Stephan Miller the ultra-suave version of Stephen Miller, the Stefan Urquelle to Miller's Steve Urkel*?

*which is not fair to Urkel, who was much more endearing than Miller.
   441. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:44 AM (#5739765)
It's a common word for lawyers, though the context is usually different; it's usually used in discussing attorneys' fees.


Heh - see?

It's McGahn.
   442. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:45 AM (#5739766)
The only Stephen Miller I've ever known was called "Flyface", and an hour before Nixon resigned he sent a telegram to Nixon demanding that he hang in there. There's something about that name that brings out the best in people.
   443. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:45 AM (#5739768)
359

"Clinton’s team of cognitive scientists and professional persuaders did a terrific job of framing Trump as scary. The illusion will wear off – albeit slowly – as you observe Trump going about the job of President and taking it seriously. You can expect him to adjust his tone and language going forward. You can expect foreign leaders to say they can work with him. You can expect him to focus on unifying an exhausted and nervous country. And you can expect him to succeed in doing so. (He’s persuasive.) Watch as Trump turns to healing. You’re going to be surprised how well he does it."


It's kinda amazing how every single sentence of this has been dead wrong.


Cue Clapper bringing up Krugman's "Trump victory means collapse of the market" piece from 11/8/16.
   444. BDC Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:45 AM (#5739769)
Thanks very much to Robidoux and Nieporent for the legal aspect of the word "lodestar," very cool.

I guess in legal parlance it just equates to "guide."

I was wrong about Shakespeare, apparently the word appears in A Midsummer Night's Dream. It is used by Chaucer and various other poets (per OED).
   445. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:47 AM (#5739770)
At the risk of incurring dear David's wrath once again, I think you might want to consider how in the hell that racial profiling email of Kavanaugh's ever got labeled "classified" (or "confidential") in the first place.


If it's a document trail that does not explicitly grease the skids for Kavanaugh to slide through unopposed, the GOP will label it "classified."
   446. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:48 AM (#5739771)

The former is a valid refusal to break the law to follow an illegal order. The latter is a crime to prevent Trump from making a dumb decision.

So... I guess we DO know that we've got one of each. We don't know what other thwarting was done/being referred to by the ASAO.

Is it 10 of the former and 5 of the latter? Just one of each? 75-25? 50-50?
First, it's not illegal to assassinate people. That's just an EO, not a law, which means it can be superseded by another EO. (What do you think the drone program is?) Second, the op/ed doesn't mention anything about illegal actions. I would think that it would have, to hammer the point home, if that's what it was referring to. The general examples it gave were just of bad policies.
   447. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:49 AM (#5739772)
Maybe it IS an assassination attempt to make Trump burst a vein!

He should be paranoid. In the hours after the New York Times published the anonymous Op-Ed from "a senior official in the Trump administration" trashing the president ("I Am Part of the Resistance Inside the Trump Administration"), two senior administration officials reached out to Axios to say the author stole the words right out of their mouths.
"I find the reaction to the NYT op-ed fascinating — that people seem so shocked that there is a resistance from the inside," one senior official said. "A lot of us [were] wishing we’d been the writer, I suspect ... I hope he [Trump] knows — maybe he does? — that there are dozens and dozens of us."
   448. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:49 AM (#5739773)
Pence becomes President, declares martial law and the US changes its name to "Gilead."


Yeah, I get the whole "because Pence would be worse, due to a lack of abject incompetence" angle. But I don't buy it, personally. Because I would personally rather just move on to "Gilead" and open warfare.
   449. PreservedFish Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:49 AM (#5739775)
I do like the idea that *hiding paperwork* can meaningfully derail the most important government on earth.
   450. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:50 AM (#5739776)

If men could get pregnant, abortion would be considered a sacrament, not a sin.
The 1980s called; they want their dumb bumper stickers back.

There is little split between men and women on the issue of abortion. Some polls show that women are a bit more opposed than men, some show the reverse, some show no difference. Abortion laws are not about men imposing their preferences on women.
   451. Morty Causa Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:51 AM (#5739777)
Lodestar is a word that I have literally never heard

Someone needs to read their PG Wodehouse.

I've read here and there over the years besides the Wodehouse. Max Shulman I think used it in one of his comic novels.
   452. PreservedFish Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:51 AM (#5739778)
There is little split between men and women on the issue of abortion. Some polls show that women are a bit more opposed than men, some show the reverse, some show no difference. Abortion laws are not about men imposing their preferences on women.


Do you really think this rebuts the comment?
   453. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:52 AM (#5739779)
Quoting from Zonk's link @447:

A good number of current White House officials have privately admitted to us they consider Trump unstable, and at times dangerously slow.

But the really deep concern and contempt, from our experience, has been at the agencies — and particularly in the foreign policy arena.


25th. Impeachment. Spiked hamburgers. There are better solutions to this problem than trying to ensure you still get cocktail party invites after the entire thing collapses.

Speaking of cocktail party invites and the fear of missing out on drinks with seconds in command to people who might know a guy with some power, has anyone seen Jason recently?
   454. , Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:52 AM (#5739780)
There is an age difference on abortion, though. People "in the crosshairs" of babies tend to be more pro-choice than older folks who want grandbabies.

Because our young people don't vote as much, our laws tend to skew older.
   455. BrianBrianson Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:53 AM (#5739782)
If the letter writer is afraid for his job, maybe he thought Trump was going to fire him (doesn't shorten list, except it ain't Ivanka), and thought a shiny NYT editorial would distract him.
   456. Howie Menckel Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:54 AM (#5739784)
this is Booker's "bombshell":


In a 2002 Kavanaugh email released by Booker's office, Kavanaugh with the subject line "racial profiling" about internal White House discussions on whether airport security and other law enforcement should strive for a "race-neutral" system after 9/11.

In one of the emails Kavanaugh referenced a possible interim policy and wrote "the people (such as you and I) who generally favor effective security measures that are race-neutral DO need to grapple - and grapple now -- with the interim question of what to do before a truly effective and comprehensive race-neutral system is implemented."

................

I'm looking for the racist comment, in vain.
   457. Morty Causa Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:54 AM (#5739785)
If the Democratic Party nominates Harris or Booker, it is indeed hopeless beyond all salvageability.
   458. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:54 AM (#5739787)
At the risk of incurring dear David's wrath once again, I think you might want to consider how in the hell that racial profiling email of Kavanaugh's ever got labeled "classified" (or "confidential") in the first place.
It never got labeled classified; you can't read. It was 'confidential' because it is from his time in the EOP, and is protected from public disclosure by executive privilege. It is not subject to disclosure under FOIA. In order to expedite things, the Judiciary Committee reviewed some of the documents while agreeing that they would not be made public. Much of Kagan's work was also confidential and not used for her hearings. This is all standard.

And there is no "racial profiling email." Booker released it, which means you can see it for yourself, which makes it inexcusable to talk about it without bothering to look at it.
   459. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:54 AM (#5739788)
First, it's not illegal to assassinate people. That's just an EO, not a law, which means it can be superseded by another EO. (What do you think the drone program is?) Second, the op/ed doesn't mention anything about illegal actions. I would think that it would have, to hammer the point home, if that's what it was referring to. The general examples it gave were just of bad policies.


But again - there were no specifics... I agree - just broad pablum (GOP pablum, but pablum still) about various ideological principles.

Obviously, the writer was trying very hard to be oblique... the writer mentions a very specific item - or even an illegal item - the writer becomes that much easier to suss out.

I'll say it for a third time - I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not saying I'm right. I'm saying that neither of us know enough to say with any surety - or really, even probability - one way or another.

And I'll reiterate - I think we're going to find (eventually) no shortage of both. Probably even individuals who did both.
   460. Greg K Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:55 AM (#5739789)
I'm not sure I've ever seen it. I reckoned it meant the pole star, since a "lodestone" is a magnet, a natural compass. And I'm right, but I don't even recall a poem that uses the word. It does not seem to appear in Shakespeare, the King James Bible, the Faerie Queene, or Paradise Lost.

Sarah Harmer has a pretty good song titled "Lodestar".

You could do worse than her for President, but I guess she's not eligible.
   461. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:56 AM (#5739790)
422 David Niperont

Ok ######### so when you say
Still stuck in the 1990s, I see. That was the old (neo)liberal Clinton position. The new one is that this formulation, by arguing that abortions should be rare, contributes to the stigmatization of abortion. Abortion is nothing to be ashamed of; it’s empowering to women and should be celebrated.

and then we point out that, well actually Democrat VP candidate in the most recent election believes abortion is immoral (and the Presidential candidate is the one who ###### coined the “safe legal rare” cop-out bullshit position)—I mean, the #### is wrong with you? Which Democrats are out there celebrating abortions you #########? You find a ####### socialist in ####### portland and say “oh yeah that’s actually all Democrats” — are you just ####### stupid or are you a ############# liar?

Democrats aren’t celebrating abortion they’re being the ####### bullshit pragmatic “centrists” on this like they are on everything else.
   462. BrianBrianson Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:00 PM (#5739791)
Do you really think this rebuts the comment?


It does, yes. The "witticism" is based on the unspoken assumption that the current situation is because it was men making the rules, but women (largely) having the rules enforced on them, that the current situation arises. But women say if they were making the rules, the rules would be identical - which pretty directly shows the unspoken assumption is false. So trust women when they say what they'd do, and realize if men where the ones who got pregnant, we'd be in exactly the same situation.*

*Including the part where laws basically don't apply to the powerful elites who make the laws, so why would they care if laws nominally applied to them de jure?
   463. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:01 PM (#5739793)
You could do worse than her for President, but I guess she's not eligible.


Doesn't matter.

If we can make a Kenyan fake-eligible, we can slide her in, too.
   464. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:03 PM (#5739796)
If the Democratic Party nominates Harris or Booker, it is indeed hopeless beyond all salvageability.


I'm not sure I have a trash file properly annotated for "Morty's beliefs on what the Democrats should do." I suppose we can file it in the same folder as similar opinions from David, Ray, SBB and Clapper.
   465. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:05 PM (#5739797)
“Democrats believe abortion is empowering to women and should be celebrated!”

Their most recent President and VP candidates have repeatedly said they’re personally opposed to abortion and want it to be safe legal and rare.

“Yeah but we can’t trust them!”

You stupid ####### jacknut.
   466. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:06 PM (#5739798)

Maybe Davo missed the Democratic convention, in which Ilyse Hogue of NARAL proudly boasted of having had an abortion, to loud cheers from the audience. And maybe he missed how the 2016 platform was changed to call for the first time for abolishing the Hyde Amendment. So, no, not centrist.

well actually Democrat VP candidate in the most recent election believes abortion is immoral
No. He doesn't. He endorses abortion being legal and even being taxpayer funded. Those are the opposite positions from someone who believes abortion is immoral.
and the Presidential candidate is the one who ###### coined the “safe legal rare” cop-out bullshit position
Hard to see how that's a copout, but you're wrong again. Bill, not Hillary, coined that. (They don't look alike, even if they share the same last name.)
   467. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:07 PM (#5739799)
You stupid ####### jacknut.


You must understand, on the subject of abortion, David defaults into crazy religious nutjob.
   468. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:08 PM (#5739800)
457. Morty Causa Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:54 AM (#5739785)
If the Democratic Party nominates Harris or Booker, it is indeed hopeless beyond all salvageability.


Agreed 100%.

Which is why I totally expect it to happen.
   469. PreservedFish Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:08 PM (#5739801)
It does, yes. The "witticism" is based on the unspoken assumption that the current situation is because it was men making the rules, but women (largely) having the rules enforced on them, that the current situation arises. But women say if they were making the rules, the rules would be identical - which pretty directly shows the unspoken assumption is false. So trust women when they say what they'd do, and realize if men where the ones who got pregnant, we'd be in exactly the same situation.*


Man you two are stupid. The witticism doesn't have anything to do with what women think about anything. It has to do with what men's opinions might be in the alternate universe where men could get pregnant by banging the chambermaid. Like, if Thomas Jefferson was in danger of carrying a negro baby to term while in office. In that universe, the powerful (men) might feel differently about abortions. How would the women feel? Nobody cares. The witticism assumes that their opinions are irrelevant, because it's a man's world.
   470. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:09 PM (#5739803)
You must understand, on the subject of abortion, David defaults into crazy religious nutjob.
You must understand that Sam has been lying about my views¹ for years on the subject.


¹And, thus, necessarily, the origin of them.
   471. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:09 PM (#5739804)
that's a very odd stance for a libertarian that david seems to hold on abortion.
   472. perros Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:10 PM (#5739805)

If the Democratic Party nominates Harris or Booker, it is indeed hopeless beyond all salvageability.


This one's pretty naked, but is there a Morty post that's not in support of white supremacy?

OTOH, there's the fully clothed BIDEN 2020.
   473. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:12 PM (#5739806)
Wow; 376 upped BM's platitude quotient to a whole new level, and managed to get it completely wrong. Our system is not based on individual judgment. Of course people who work for the government are expected not to break the law, but other than that, their job is to follow orders, not make policy.


I don't know if you have ever written a post that missed the point more. Every sentence you wrote is wrong, so ... well done?
   474. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:13 PM (#5739807)
that's a very odd stance for a libertarian that david seems to hold on abortion


He's just staying true to his lodestar of first principles, and defending the natural rights of sperm.
   475. BDC Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:14 PM (#5739809)
I did go and look at the e-mails that Booker released. Kavanaugh, in one of them, says that he is personally in favor of "effective security measures that are race-neutral." He seems to be weighing in on different proposals that carry some risk for the government if someone complains they've been discriminated against. This would seem to have been his job. Is there some flaming racist stuff in there that I am missing? So far I am not seeing Booker's point.
   476. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:14 PM (#5739810)
Agreed 100%.


Agreeing with Morty is something like agreeing with Clapper or SBB. If you do it, you're almost certainly wrong. But please, give us a better option.
   477. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:14 PM (#5739811)
If the Democratic Party nominates Harris or Booker, it is indeed hopeless beyond all salvageability.


So tell us, oh great ones, which are the acceptable candidates for the Democrats to nominate. The world breathlessly awaits your pronouncements on what millions of voters should or should not do.
   478. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:16 PM (#5739812)
Cuz he’s just making #### up as he goes along because he believes the Democratic Party is what ####### Pat Robertson says it is, rather than a collection of technocratic centrists who hate any position even the least bit in opposition to the status quo.

Their most recent VP repeatedly talks about how abortion is immoral and he’s opposed to it. And he got rewarded with a VP Nom. And yet our big dumb baby still says the Party that honored him with that believes “abortion is empowering to women and should be celebrated.”

Hey ######### guess what: if they really believed that TIM KAINE WOULD BE A ####### OUTCAST.
   479. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:17 PM (#5739813)
More...

Woodward’s book isn’t officially on sale until next week, and aides fear how Trump will react as more embarrassing bits are reported. “It’s bad and it’s going to get worse,” a former West Wing staffer said. An outside adviser added, “Everybody on the inside knows it’s true. It’s just Fox News people who don’t want to admit how crazy he is.” Kelly and Mattis issued strong statements denying the quotes attributed to them, but two former administration officials said the book has rekindled Trump’s desire to fire both officials after the midterms. “That’s back on the table,” one said. Trump’s advisers also worry about how the president will respond to the increasing pressure of Mueller’s probe and the growing likelihood that Democrats will win back the House in November, thereby making impeachment a real possibility. “You can normally only do 10 percent of what he tells you to do. Ninety percent is ####### crazy,” a former West Wing official said, fretting about what Trump may instruct aides to do.
   480. perros Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:18 PM (#5739815)
Still - it seems more likely that whomever wrote this hates Pence almost as much as they hate Trump. Like it is specifically a poison pill. That scares the crap out of me, but maybe this is too deep.


There are so many potential angles on this one, but I wouldn't put anything past Stephen Miller, particularly the way it plays straight into Trump's narratives regarding The Swamp and The Press.

If it's another log on the "Trrump is Unfit" fire, it's one that's helped the GOP accomplish a lot of its agenda while everyone is distracted by the crazy man waving his arms and legs.

Regardless, it's hard to argue we haven't entered Decline and Fall times.
   481. Morty Causa Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:18 PM (#5739817)
477

Well, that's the Democratic Party's big problem. They have nothing but ciphers and a few of the old and impotent leftover. They need to do some serious foraging.
   482. BrianBrianson Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:19 PM (#5739819)
It has to do with what men's opinions might be in the alternate universe where men could get pregnant by banging the chambermaid.


That's not the point it's trying to make at all. The point it's trying to make is that access to abortion is restricted because it's largely men who've made the decision about it, but that point is wrong, as women say they'd do the same thing.

If one is so dense as to think the phrase isn't a "thinly veiled cliche" about our universe, but is really just a plot point to create an episode of Sliders with absolutely no allegory, it's almost certainly wrong anyways, unless you believe that men and women are fundamentally different organisms from different kingdoms whose cognitive powers arose in totally separate and fundamentally disparate ways. If men could get pregnant, how would they react to it? More or less the way women do, see as they can get pregnant.
   483. PreservedFish Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:20 PM (#5739820)
Decline and Fall


Morty, what's your opinion on Waugh? I find the early novels hilarious but I never connected with either Brideshead or the Sword of Honor trilogy.
   484. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:21 PM (#5739821)

The witticism doesn't have anything to do with what women think about anything.
Yes it does. It has everything to do with it.
It has to do with what men's opinions might be in the alternate universe where men could get pregnant by banging the chambermaid.
Which has everything to do with beliefs about what women think about abortion.

I thought Brian explained it clearly, but maybe I can use smaller words: it's based on the notion that people who could get pregnant would strongly support abortion. And that argument is undermined by the fact that people who can get pregnant actually don't strongly support abortion.
   485. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:21 PM (#5739822)
Well, that's the Democratic Party's big problem. They have nothing but ciphers and a few of the old and impotent leftover.


They have a couple of folks who seem to be less than "ciphers" for actual Democratic voters - Harris and Booker for starters. That they aren't leftwing enough to fit Davo's preferences, or that they have too much pigmentation to fit yours, isn't something they have to address immediately.
   486. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:22 PM (#5739823)
that's a very odd stance for a libertarian that david seems to hold on abortion.
(a) It's not clear why you think it's very odd. Libertarians have diverse views on abortion. (Except all agree that taxpayers shouldn't be paying for it.)
(b) It's not clear what -- other than Sam's hysterical nonsense -- you're basing your notion of my abortion stance on.
   487. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:23 PM (#5739824)
I thought Brian explained it clearly, but maybe I can use smaller words: it's based on the notion that people who could get pregnant would strongly support abortion. And that argument is undermined by the fact that people who can get pregnant actually don't strongly support abortion.


A woman's natural right to control her own body does not depend on the opinions of other men, or other women. An actual libertarian would argue as much. But we know, you prefer the "rights" of sperm.
   488. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:25 PM (#5739827)
448

Yeah, I get the whole "because Pence would be worse, due to a lack of abject incompetence" angle. But I don't buy it, personally. Because I would personally rather just move on to "Gilead" and open warfare.


Pence comes off as a sniveling, craven little man who's scared of his own shadow and uses the Bible as a shield. That's a dangerous combo, IMO.
   489. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:25 PM (#5739828)

Sam, the grownups are trying to talk. Maybe you can find a thread with FLTB in it; he'd be closer to your intellectual level.
   490. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:25 PM (#5739829)
well ####### clarify it then, ffs.
   491. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:25 PM (#5739831)
477

Well, that's the Democratic Party's big problem. They have nothing but ciphers and a few of the old and impotent leftover. They need to do some serious foraging.
Draft Michelle!
   492. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:25 PM (#5739832)
Sam, the grownups are trying to talk.


How would you know what the grownups are doing? You can't even see over the sign.
   493. PreservedFish Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:25 PM (#5739833)
That's not the point it's trying to make at all. The point it's trying to make is that access to abortion is restricted because it's largely men who've made the decision about it, but that point is wrong, as women say they'd do the same thing.


I disagree with you, strongly. "If men could get pregnant." That's the phrase. Just read it. It's plain English.

If one is so dense as to think the phrase isn't a "thinly veiled cliche" about our universe, but is really just a plot point to create an episode of Sliders with absolutely no allegory, it's almost certainly wrong anyways, unless you believe that men and women are fundamentally different organisms from different kingdoms whose cognitive powers arose in totally separate and fundamentally disparate ways. If men could get pregnant, how would they react to it? More or less the way women do, see as they can get pregnant.


You think society would be largely unchanged if it were men that got pregnant? Ok...
   494. perros Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:27 PM (#5739836)
Regarding "hand signal girl" (pretty sexist, MM), one explanation is that you get a Jewish, Mexican woman to do it not just for thr denyability, but as a kind of stunt that demonstrates you are 100 percent in the Cult.

IOW, it's not realy about white supremacy beyond what's already part of the Trump package.
   495. BrianBrianson Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:27 PM (#5739838)
A woman's natural right to control her own body does not depend on the opinions of other men, or other women. An actual libertarian would argue as much. But we know, you prefer the "rights" of sperm.


As far as I know, neither I nor David have expressed any opinion on what, if any, legal restrictions on access to abortion should exist.
   496. PreservedFish Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:27 PM (#5739839)
I thought Brian explained it clearly, but maybe I can use smaller words: it's based on the notion that people who could get pregnant would strongly support abortion. And that argument is undermined by the fact that people who can get pregnant actually don't strongly support abortion.


Don't forget that the originators of this phrase also believed that most women were basically brainwashed by men, for millenia. Is the argument "undermined" by polls? Perhaps undermined, but it concerns a counterfactual, any poll conducted in the real world cannot actually disprove this counterfactual.
   497. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:28 PM (#5739842)
what's the bumper sticker go, something like "if men could get pregnant legal abortion would be the 1st amendment? Something like that.
   498. DavidFoss Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:30 PM (#5739844)
But we know, you prefer the "rights" of sperm.

This is silly. The usual pro-life position is that it pertains to 'life'. Half of the embryos and fetuses out there are female and they refer to them as 'unborn babies'. This is why its popular with religious groups. If there was a way to extract the embryo/fetus and incubate/gestate it somewhere else, they'd be for that.

I know there's a whole third rail with this politically. Who do you punish? Doesn't this create a two-tiered society where wealthy can travel to get their abortions? Will back-alley procedures return? Yadda yadda. But the whole issue is not a pretext for "male supremacy".
   499. perros Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:31 PM (#5739846)
Pence comes off as a sniveling, craven little man who's scared of his own shadow and uses the Bible as a shield


I would suggest that's been great cover to getting ridiculously close to becoming POTUS without being elected. Say what you will about Jerry Ford, good company men are the perfect backup for "Prez who's a good bet not to finish his term".
   500. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:31 PM (#5739848)
The ideal Democratic candidate in 2020 is one who has no baggage whatsoever. A non-legislator, or one with practically no experience.
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