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Monday, November 20, 2017

OTP 20 November 2017: Sheriff’s official suspended 10 days over Cubs World Series sneak-in

A high-ranking official in Cook County Sheriff Tom Dart’s office had to pay a price for allowing others to avoid having to pay the price of admission last year to a Cubs World Series game at Wrigley Field, newly obtained records show.

Mike Anton, a deputy chief with the sheriff’s police who makes about $120,000 a year, was suspended for 10 days for giving security IDs to two people so they could get in to a 2016 Cubs World Series game, the records show.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 20, 2017 at 08:01 AM | 1172 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off-topic, politics, world series

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   501. Morty Causa Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:16 AM (#5580035)
Bob Dylan has rarely sung his songs live in the voice and style of the studio recordings. He kind of uses concerts as an occasion to experiment. I once linked (or maybe it was a couple of times I linked) to a long and compelling article on Dylan and, especially, the sessions musicians and producers who worked with him in the studio, and they all confirmed that he refused to sing the same song the same way twice. As his vocal range has narrowed, maybe he's doing it now, though. After all, songs from the great songbook of the half-century might call for vocal consistency. But, I still remember Dylan's angry response to a producer who wanted him to sing a song the same way he had just sung it there in the studio. Dylan instructed a sessions musician pal, "Tell him." And the pal told the producer, "Bob doesn't sing the same song the same way twice."
   502. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:18 AM (#5580037)
Huh? Of course we live in a patriarchal society.


Correct.

Patriarchy is an inextricable element of civilization.


Nonsense.
   503. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:21 AM (#5580039)
I think the Chinese published something confirming the thesis.
   504. Hot Wheeling American Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:22 AM (#5580040)
It's probably not possible to quantify in any way, but if you combine the importance of social media to Trump's campaign and presidency, and the sense I get that many Trump supporters are looking to stick it to smug liberals with their votes

Internet troll as President. Very cool.
   505. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:23 AM (#5580041)
I suspect it's an appealing choice if you're stupid.
   506. Greg K Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:24 AM (#5580042)
The republic isn't going to survive the tribalism and the anti-social behavior and the make your own reality engendered by the internet. None of us was socialized to act this way, and none of us act this way way off the internet

Here you go.


I find the anonymity part of the equation interesting. First of all, as the TV Tropes entry notes, facebook (and to a lesser extent Twitter) isn't anonymous and yet you still get pretty obnoxious discussions there.

But also, in my own experience, anonymity isn't strictly a matter of online vs. real-life. To a certain extent I conduct myself at BTF with the knowledge that my identity here isn't totally divorced from my real life identity. It's pretty easy to connect the two.

But far, far, far more central to my thought process when I post here is the fact that I am not anonymous within the closed society of BTF. I care about my status and how I am perceived within this community in a way that is totally divorced from my real life. Even if I was 100% truly anonymous, and just an untraceable handle here, I'd still feel that influence.

It's just something I always think about when the subject of anonymous online behaviour comes up.
   507. The Good Face Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:24 AM (#5580043)
Patriarchy is an inextricable element of civilization.

Nonsense.


Find me a civilization that wasn't patriarchal. I'll wait.
   508. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:24 AM (#5580044)
Political discourse is in some way shaped by the medium it takes place in. Just look at how printing radically changed how politics worked. I'm less familiar with television or radio, but I'm sure there has been plenty of work on how they changed the nature of politics too.


I see what you are saying, but I don't know that I agree.

Politics has a few major factors - people, communication, and conflict resolution are three big ones. Technology has not really changed people, has completely altered how communication works, and has had some influence on conflict resolution.

So yes technology has changed politics, but still I am very sure that Machiavelli would come up to speed on the basics of how politics works in the 21st Century MUCH faster than he would culture, technology or anyone of a million things.

In other words because people are still people I think technology has changed politics less than it has many other things.
   509. dog poop god Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:24 AM (#5580045)
That guy can eat #### and die."

He pretty much did. Not unlike Lou Reed, Townes' rich parents dragged him out of college for convulsive tberapy treatments. Wiped out much of his previous memory, spent the rest of his life as a troubadour, battling addiction. Heart gives up New Year's Day 1997 at age 52 -- 44 years after Hank.

In a doc about him, Be Here to Love Me, Guy Clark's wife Susanna reminisces what a great guy he was to her, to which Guy smiles and snorts that he juat wanted to get in her pants. Both gone now, unfortunately.

Waitin' Around to Die
   510. Howie Menckel Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:27 AM (#5580047)
they all confirmed that he refused to sing the same song the same way twice. As his vocal range has narrowed, maybe he's doing it now, though.

yes, he is playing the same set each night with very few occasional one-offs. and indeed he reveres the standards so much that he doesn't tinker there. he knows how to "stay in his lane" in terms of range of voice and keyboard. I wouldn't be surprised if he is sticking to the (offbeat) arrangements for his own songs as well. his band seems very disciplined - in a good way. they have found what they see as a strong show, and want to perform that for each audience.
   511. dog poop god Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:30 AM (#5580048)
As his vocal range has narrowed

When was it broad?
   512. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:31 AM (#5580050)
But also, in my own experience, anonymity isn't strictly a matter of online vs. real-life. To a certain extent I conduct myself at BTF with the knowledge that my identity here isn't totally divorced from my real life identity. It's pretty easy to connect the two.

Of course it is more than pretty easy to connect those two. There are only so many 19th century baseball playing foxes around...
   513. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:33 AM (#5580052)
Internet troll as President. Very cool.

I suspect it's an appealing choice if you're stupid.



Ask not what your country can do for you, ask for a steady supply of the lulz.
   514. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:35 AM (#5580054)
Patriarchy is an inextricable element of civilization.


Find me a civilization that wasn't patriarchal. I'll wait.


The existence of a non-patriarchal civilization proves you are wrong. However, even if one does not exist* it doesn't prove anything. Just because something has not been seen yet does not mean it is impossible. For example it could be that the development of civilization "requires" patriarchy, but after it is developed it is not needed. That would - in this hypothetical example - a necessary catalyst for civilization, but still not an inextricable element of it going forward.

* The subject is debatable since first you would need to define civilization. There have certainly been matriarchal societies, but of course you would arbitrarily define them as not civilized, so I don't see much point in mentioning them.
   515. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:38 AM (#5580056)
Internet troll as President.


Speaking of which... if you want to make an omelet, you've got to break a few pegs:
Angry Trump fans keep yelling at LeVar Burton instead of LaVar Ball

“Star Trek” actor LeVar Burton has been receiving hate mail intended for LaVar Ball in the middle of his feud with President Trump.

“You're a has been actor with a thief for a son and Trump is the president of the United States. Get the picture?” one person tweeted. ...“LaVar Burton broke the rules of good manners. He insulted our president and the president of China. He should be ashamed that his son dishonored him by stealing,” tweeted another.

...Burton has laughed off the confusion.
   516. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:38 AM (#5580057)
TGF's run-around here is that he will deny any organization that isn't patriarchal to be "not civilization." Just curb stomp him and move on.
   517. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:39 AM (#5580058)
Speaking of which... if you want to make an omelet, you've got to break a few pegs:


Thanks for the laugh.
   518. Hot Wheeling American Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:39 AM (#5580059)
YR, any good reactions from the online young deplorables this week with net neutrality back in the news? See, there I understand the feeling to laugh my e-buns off at the fact that /the_donald will be super bummed at their leader's administration sticking it to them after they went all in for the troll. But I also recognize his admin's policy is bad on its merits and so I'm not rooting for it just because it would be funny to see them upset.
   519. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:42 AM (#5580061)
Cmon Mouse, a quick Google search would have gotten you examples. http://mentalfloss.com/article/31274/6-modern-societies-where-women-literally-rule
   520. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:43 AM (#5580062)
Bob Dylan has rarely sung his songs live in the voice and style of the studio recordings. He kind of uses concerts as an occasion to experiment. I once linked (or maybe it was a couple of times I linked) to a long and compelling article on Dylan and, especially, the sessions musicians and producers who worked with him in the studio, and they all confirmed that he refused to sing the same song the same way twice. As his vocal range has narrowed, maybe he's doing it now, though. After all, songs from the great songbook of the half-century might call for vocal consistency. But, I still remember Dylan's angry response to a producer who wanted him to sing a song the same way he had just sung it there in the studio. Dylan instructed a sessions musician pal, "Tell him." And the pal told the producer, "Bob doesn't sing the same song the same way twice."


Yeah, this.

It's been 15 years since I've seen him - but all three shows I have seen, the pattern is very much to expect plenty of deep cuts and if you do get something from the hits collection (such as it is), don't expect to recognize it quickly. I think it's actually a GREAT way to do business if you really want to give fans something more than the communal experience of singing along to a well-tread hits collection. Whether it's him wanting to experiment or him wanting to give the audience a unique experience doesn't matter so much - I loved it.

The last show of his I saw included a searing, almost punk take on Masters of War. My favorite was probably a bouncy cut of Oxford Town that I wish I had a recording of. I have heard him do Like a Rolling Stone, which sounds like it may be a rarity - but it was almost unrecognizable as he turned it into a spiritual. Of course, it was also amusing/sad that during what I presume was going to be a harmonica break, he was pretty clearly looking around for his harmonica, not noticing it was still very much clipped right below his chin.

Still, all of the artists I've seen years - even decades - after their peak, I like to think that Dylan is the one artist where you can almost relate to what it was like to see him BITD if only because he's basically still trying to create the same original experience (even if for his own ends) rather than just phoning in a professionally staged hits compendium.
   521. Greg K Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:43 AM (#5580063)
Of course it is more than pretty easy to connect those two. There are only so many 19th century baseball playing foxes around...

I have actually commissioned a second baseball-themed portrait from the same artist!

Though, that was almost three years ago now. I'm told it's done, but I've been too lazy to go get it.
   522. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:46 AM (#5580065)
At the risk of pissing off TGF or perros yes, it's obvious, (and has this last month's worth of tales of men behaving badly not utterly confirmed it once and for all?) we live in a patricharal society.


Maybe, maybe not -- but we do live in a society in which heterosexual romance and sex is instigated by male action the vast majority of the time. Why then there would be complaints about men merely attempting to instigate heterosexual romance and sex is quite ... odd.

The power dynamic is absolutely the crux of the behavior IMO.


No, the "crux of the behavior" is men wanting to get laid or otherwise bust a nut. The funny thing is that this isn't even debatable, yet in the current environment all manner of confusion reigns and simple, obvious facts and principles get ignored.
   523. Morty Causa Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:47 AM (#5580067)
When was it broad?

I think so. Dylan's approach to song stylings has tremendous variety across the spectrum of his career, but even in his early albums, he displayed a facility for singing a lot of different ways. Highway 61 Revisited, for instance, has nine songs. Each is different stylistically, vocally, and musically. The album has always brought to mind Salinger's Nine Stories, in which J. D. does the same thing. But, it isn't just that. He had a crooning period that is comparable to '40s-'50's guys, but he had much more. No one did that broken-down cadence pattern like he did in his early electric period, ala Like a Rolling Stone/Positively 4th Street/Etc. You have to really get into the albums, and not just rely on the high-profile numbers, to appreciate that.
   524. Morty Causa Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:50 AM (#5580070)
Yeah, this.

It's been 15 years since I've seen him - but all three shows I have seen, the pattern is very much to expect plenty of deep cuts and if you do get something from the hits collection (such as it is), don't expect to recognize it quickly. I think it's actually a GREAT way to do business if you really want to give fans something more than the communal experience of singing along to a well-tread hits collection. Whether it's him wanting to experiment or him wanting to give the audience a unique experience doesn't matter so much - I loved it.


But, many hate it. They want Frank Sinatra or Tony Bennett or Frankie Avalon singing it the same way they sang it 40-years ago. A guy I known, a really intelligent lover of music, once said to me bitterly that he had been to maybe 15 concerts of Dylan, "and he was good maybe three times."
   525. Lassus Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:51 AM (#5580071)
TGF's run-around here is that he will deny any organization that isn't patriarchal to be "not civilization." Just curb stomp him and move on.

I did find - among others - the Mosuo, but didn't really feel it worth the bother to engage. So I blame you.
   526. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:52 AM (#5580073)
Do you go up to people in public and demand that they condemn Trump?


Of course not


Then why do you do it here?
   527. Morty Causa Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:53 AM (#5580076)
Still, all of the artists I've seen years - even decades - after their peak, I like to think that Dylan is the one artist where you can almost relate to what it was like to see him BITD if only because he's basically still trying to create the same original experience (even if for his own ends) rather than just phoning in a professionally staged hits compendium.

Yeah, he's on record as saying that he sees singing as not recreating an experience but in creating a new experience. He's sort of like what John Wayne said about what John Ford expected from his performers. That they do it in the first take, because each take after that is merely attempt to recapture something, and that's kind of fake.
   528. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:54 AM (#5580078)
Plus there's the little thing about sexual assault not being acceptable under any circumstance.


Franken didn't come close to "sexually assaulting" anyone.
   529. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:55 AM (#5580079)
YR, any good reactions from the online young deplorables this week with net neutrality back in the news?
Why haven't I seen much commentary on the fact that Ajit Pai, FCC Chairman and champion of gutting net nutrality, was once Associate General Council for Verizon - which stands to be one of the biggest winners of the new regulations?
   530. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:55 AM (#5580080)
I think so. Dylan's approach to song stylings has tremendous variety across the spectrum of his career, but even in his early albums, he displayed a facility for singing a lot of different ways. Highway 61 Revisited, for instance, has nine songs. Each is different stylistically, vocally, and musically. The album has always brought to mind Salinger's Nine Stories, in which J. D. does the same thing. But, it isn't just that. He had a crooning period that is comparable to '40s-'50's guys, but he had much more. No one did that broken-down cadence pattern like he did in his early electric period, ala Like a Rolling Stone/Positively 4th Street/Etc. You have to really get into the albums, and not just rely on the high-profile numbers, to appreciate that.


It's not my favorite album - it's probably not even my favorite Dylan album - but if I were to try to set all personal predilections and preferences aside and just truly try to measure every album using some objective standard of creativity, achievement, et al -- I would probably put Highway 61 at the top of the list.

Sometimes I think the fates and the public subconsciously made a 'classic hit' of Like a Rolling Stone just because it was a matter of SOMETHING off that album has to go enter the eternal pantheon and they just chose at random.
   531. dog poop god Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:56 AM (#5580083)
Cmon Mouse, a quick Google search would have gotten you examples. http://mentalfloss.com/article/31274/6-modern-societies-where-women-literally-rule

Google is not a substitute for knowledge. The tribal societies mentioned are matrilineal, with men in leadership. The men literally rule.

Tribal being key here -- not civilization.

Read The Epic of Gilgamesh.
   532. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:56 AM (#5580084)
Cmon Mouse, a quick Google search would have gotten you examples. http://mentalfloss.com/article/31274/6-modern-societies-where-women-literally-rule


I wanted to have the argument from a different direction than that, because even if he is correct he still has not proven his point. He is relying on very poor logic (and of course incorrect facts and a bad understanding of civilization).

Yet another way to discuss the issue is to notice that Western society has progressively become less and less patriarchal over the last 200 years, all while continuing to be civilized (I would argue become even more civilized, but even holding steady is good enough). Since the patriarchy IS being extracted from Western Civilization, clearly patriarchy can't be inextricable from civilization.

So yeah he is wrong in every possible way.
   533. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:59 AM (#5580085)
Why haven't I seen much commentary on the fact that Ajit Pai, FCC Chairman and champion of gutting net nutrality, was once Associate General Council for Verizon - which stands to be one of the biggest winners of the new regulations?


Because the US government being run as if it's a second- or third-world banana republic modeled explicitly on the post-Soviet kleptocracies is an assumed fact at this point. One doesn't comment on the sun rising in the east.
   534. dog poop god Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:59 AM (#5580086)
I did find - among others - the Mosuo, but didn't really feel it worth the bother to engage. So I blame you.

Good OTP parody.
   535. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:01 AM (#5580088)
Why should I have to answer some other question in order to get him to stop lying about me?

454. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 22, 2017 at 12:16 AM (#5579946)

I believe Ray doesn't support Moore and thinks he should step down


Maybe you can explain to the community why you told a flat out lie about my position on Moore several times before finally finding it within yourself not to smear me by presenting my position as the opposite of what it was.
   536. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:01 AM (#5580089)
What influence that will have on society, I have no idea.


A bad one. The internet also permits people to perpetually inhabit their own reality, thus eliminating the shared principles that form society's glue.
   537. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:02 AM (#5580090)
Technology has not really changed people


LOL.

Another fortune cookie banality of deep untruth.
   538. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:02 AM (#5580091)
Also, Ray, don't you also famously claim to not support or vote for nearly any politician, including Trump? Hypothetically, would you actually vote for Jones to help keep Moore out of the senate, or would you simply abstain from voting and mock liberals if they failed to win, as you have done in the past?


I would vote for Jones to help keep Moore out of the Senate. That's what NeverMoore means.

   539. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:02 AM (#5580092)
But, many hate it. They want Frank Sinatra or Tony Bennett or Frankie Avalon singing it the same way they sang it 40-years ago. A guy I known, a really intelligent lover of music, once said to me bitterly that he had been to maybe 15 concerts of Dylan, "and he was good maybe three times."


Oh sure - and it goes without saying that, no matter how genius you are, a lifetime of eternal experimenting is inevitably going to produce some real clunkers - so I've probably just gotten lucky. I'm also not trying to deny anyone their candy - I've been to plenty of shows where I just want to say "we don't care about your new album nobody is going to buy, play freebird!"

It may well be that my first Dylan show - attended in HS with my dad, a teacher that turned me on to Dylan, and his son - the teacher told me in advance what to expect (he had seen him many times over before), so I went into it knowing full-well what I was going to get. He also told me to resist the urge to sing along because "Bob doesn't like that".
   540. The Good Face Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:04 AM (#5580093)
The existence of a non-patriarchal civilization proves you are wrong. However, even if one does not exist* it doesn't prove anything. Just because something has not been seen yet does not mean it is impossible.


Keep waiting for that unicorn to show up. I'm sure it'll happen any day now. Yup. Aaaaaaaany day.

Cmon Mouse, a quick Google search would have gotten you examples.


Ah, clickbait. Although I wouldn't consider any of those tribes to be a civilization, let's look a bit deeper shall we?

The Garo aren't patriarchal?

“The father is the head of the family. He is known as nokgipa (owner). He can punish any member who does something wrong. “(Pg. 57)

“Women are quite excluded from village administration. A woman can never be a village headman (nokma).” Pg. 60

Institutions of The Garo of Meghalaya; M.C. Goswami and N. Majumdar (Calcutta: Nababharat Publishers)


Welp. How about the Nagovisi?

“The Nagovisi believe that the husband must dominate the woman in domestic matters and that she ought to defer to him….Most women in Nagavisi defer to their husbands.”

Matriliny and Modernisation: The Nagovisi of South Bougainville; Jill Nash (New Ginuea Research Bulletin; Canberra, New Guinea, Australian National University, 55, Pg. 64


Ah shit. Maybe the Mosuo?

The husbands in these relationships (walking marriages) are generally the figures who are in charge of all religious and political decisions for the family.

Gong, Binglin, Huibin Yan, and Chun-Lei Yang. "Gender Differences in the Dictator Experiment: Evidence from the Matrilineal Mosuo and the Patriarchal Yi." SSRN Electronic Journal (2010): 1-25. Web. 25 Oct. 2016.


   541. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:04 AM (#5580094)
Sometimes I think the fates and the public subconsciously made a 'classic hit' of Like a Rolling Stone just because it was a matter of SOMETHING off that album has to go enter the eternal pantheon and they just chose at random.


I blame Cousin Brucie for not playing "Queen Jane Approximately" every hour in between "I Got You Babe" and "What's New, Pussycat?" on the WABC pick hits to click playlist.
   542. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:04 AM (#5580095)
That's not really the defense here, though. Franken is claiming it was a joke (albeit a bad one) and not intended the way Tweeden took it.


He shoved his tongue down her throat after manipulating the situation by writing a kiss into the scene. He then posed for the photo. Between that point, she says, he harassed her for two weeks.

While an unwanted kiss is not sexual assault, it's not a "bad joke" either.
   543. dog poop god Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:05 AM (#5580096)
The beauty of matrilineal society is nobody is too much bothered who's the daddy. Which I imagine helps keep the peace.

There are tradeoffs with everything, and tribalism seems the natural organization of the species. Civilizations are built on more rickety foundations and eventually collapse... though there's reason people are betting on the Chinese.
   544. Lassus Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:06 AM (#5580097)
The internet also permits people to inhabit their own reality, thus eliminating the shared principles that form society's glue.

This is idiotic. The creation and clustering of internet trolls does not negate the massive global community that has been a result of the internet era.
   545. Morty Causa Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:06 AM (#5580098)
Life is not just the political/public life, and patriarchy/matriarchy doesn't begin to do Life justice. It's immature and really brainless to look at it in that manner. And, of course, it's strictly for political effect and gain.

If you want to discuss it in those terms, I'd say it's both patriarchial and matriarchial. To the extent men dominate and have dominated our public, it's wrong to give the impression that this is a characteristic that applies across the board to all males. It doesn't. It's alpha-patriarchial, and 90-99 percent of the males are powerless or subservient followers, and those on that non-alpha end can suffer.

I've often pointed out certain real facts, which remain unrefuted and are simply ignored, so I don't have enough respect for the commitment to intelligent discussion here to repeat it in toto, but I will ask you to consider how strange it is for the oppressors to generally be worse off than the oppressed. Who lives the longest by far? Who leads in most all the indicators of mortality? Who does family/divorce/childcustory/criminal law favor? Who gets the lioness's share of public monies for health and welfare? Who historically has been forced to go to war? (I was deathly afraid I'd have to go to Vietnam--you know any woman that was?) I could go on, but like I say, on these boards it's like water off a duck's back.
   546. The Good Face Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:07 AM (#5580099)
Google is not a substitute for knowledge. The tribal societies mentioned are matrilineal, with men in leadership. The men literally rule.

Tribal being key here -- not civilization.


Correct on both counts.
   547. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:08 AM (#5580100)
The creation and clustering of internet trolls does not negate the massive global community that has been a result of the internet era.


There is no "massive global community." What on Earth are you talking about? The varying echo chambers have multinational participants, to be sure -- but that's an entirely different thing.
   548. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:08 AM (#5580101)
Ray doesn't "support" Moore. Ray doesn't "support" Trump. He simply refuses to *oppose* them, while assiduously opposing anyone with a D next to their name.


Another lie. I actively opposed Moore from the beginning. And have now done so more times on this board than any other poster has, by far, which makes these lies even more repugnant.

Please stop libeling me.
   549. dog poop god Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:09 AM (#5580102)
I've seen Dylan thrice. Love the guy, love his music, but you'd have to go back to at least Rolling Thunder to get groundbreaking performance.

I'd rather go see Eugene Chadbourne.
   550. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:09 AM (#5580103)
Also, Ray, don't you also famously claim to not support or vote for nearly any politician, including Trump? Hypothetically, would you actually vote for Jones to help keep Moore out of the senate, or would you simply abstain from voting and mock liberals if they failed to win, as you have done in the past?

I would vote for Jones to help keep Moore out of the Senate. That's what NeverMoore means.

Good to know. Now what about Clapper?
   551. Greg K Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:09 AM (#5580104)
I wanted to have the argument from a different direction than that, because even if he is correct he still has not proven his point. He is relying on very poor logic (and of course incorrect facts and a bad understanding of civilization).

What I find interesting is that the argument follows a similar path as the libertarian argument about the role of government. Just because government/patriarchy appears to be universal in civilized history, doesn't mean government/patriarchy is necessary for civilization.

Which seems to make sense as a logical argument (though what do I know, my logic is as bad as my math).

As a historical one, it's a bit harder to work with. Counterfactuals are useful, but only to point. Which isn't to say matriarchal societies (or to be a bit broader, non-patriarchal societies) are impossible or implausible. Certainly, as you say, we're not seeing civilization fall apart with the weakening of patriarchy (though there's a lot of assumptions built into that one sentence that could be fun to unpack). But what we could say about non-patriarchal societies - how they function in sophisticated national or trans-national society, or how they get established - is more in the realm of speculation rather than historical analysis.
   552. Lassus Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:10 AM (#5580105)
From the heavily-footnoted Mosuo entry:
Matriarch[edit]

The matriarch (Ah mi, or elder female, in Chinese) is the head of the house. The Ah mi has absolute power;[7] she decides the fate of all those living under her roof. In walking marriages, Mosuo women are responsible for much of the work done around the house and financial decisions. The matriarch also manages the money and jobs of each family member.[9] When the Ah mi wishes to pass her duties on to the next generation, she will give this female successor the keys to the household storage,[7] signifying the passing on of property rights and responsibility.


7. Kingdom of Women: The Matriarchal Mosuo of China (2007, 54 min.) Films for the Humanities and Societies
   553. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:10 AM (#5580106)
Ray doesn't "support" Moore. Ray doesn't "support" Trump. He simply refuses to *oppose* them, while assiduously opposing anyone with a D next to their name...

Ray doesn't "support" Moore. Ray doesn't "support" Trump. He simply refuses to *oppose* them, while assiduously opposing anyone with a D next to their name who does.


Another post, another lie from Misirlou.
   554. Greg K Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:11 AM (#5580108)
Another fortune cookie banality of deep untruth.

To be fair, my vague "technology changes people" is a fortune cookie banality as well.
   555. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:11 AM (#5580109)

Your regular reminder that so-called "net neutrality" was not in effect in the U.S. until mid-2015, and yet advocates can cite only one instance in 20 years of the Internet of an alleged problem, and it was exactly the opposite of the problem that advocates pretend to be worried about. (The horror stories painted by advocates is that the big content providers will get better service than the small ones, causing the latter to suffer competitively. But the only alleged example that is ever cited is one where Netflix -- not a small company -- was supposedly disadvantaged.)
   556. Lassus Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:12 AM (#5580110)
Certainly, as you say, we're not seeing civilization fall apart with the weakening of patriarchy

THE SBB-SIGNAL!
   557. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:12 AM (#5580111)
A bad one. The internet also permits people to inhabit their own reality, thus eliminating the shared principles that form society's glue.


So did transoceanic exploration.... and flight... and the steam engine...

Advancement in all forms has always incorporated the double-edged paradox of simultaneously allowing people to move beyond their little village and create new realities, while letting them take pieces of it - both the good and the bad - with them.

Pretending that digital communication is any different is silly. We've simply run out of blank spaces on terra forma to do it IRL.
   558. Greg K Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:13 AM (#5580112)
The internet also permits people to inhabit their own reality, thus eliminating the shared principles that form society's glue.

This is idiotic. The creation and clustering of internet trolls does not negate the massive global community that has been a result of the internet era.

Yeah think technology hasn't so much dissolved the glue, as changed the configuration of the networks the glue holds together.

Which of course, could be just as messy.
   559. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:15 AM (#5580115)
To be fair, my vague "technology changes people" is a fortune cookie banality as well.


But an obviously true one.

Like women pre-internet sat around all day discussing men they label as "their rapist" as women do now on Jezebel. The technology has changed their perception of the world.

This is but one of thousands of examples.
   560. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:16 AM (#5580116)
I would vote for Jones to help keep Moore out of the Senate. That's what NeverMoore means.

Good to know. Now what about Clapper?
Yeah, I'd vote for Clapper to keep Moore out of the Senate.
   561. Greg K Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:17 AM (#5580117)
If you want to discuss it in those terms, I'd say it's both patriarchial and matriarchial. To the extent men dominate and have dominated our public, it's wrong to give the impression that this is a characteristic that applies across the board to all males. It doesn't. It's alpha-patriarchial, and 90-99 percent of the males are powerless or subservient followers, and those on that non-alpha end can suffer.

That's sort of built into "patriarchy" though. Or at least, as I understand the term as used by historians of gender I'm familiar with (and to a lesser extent gender theorists whose work informs theirs). The "Patriarch" isn't just a stand-in for "man", but rather a very specific, exclusive, kind of man.

A patriarchy is just as much about establishing a social hierarchy within genders as it is between genders.
   562. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:17 AM (#5580118)
So we had one person, Joyful Calculus Instructor in post 451, who had enough sense of right and wrong to acknowledge that Misirlou was lying about me.

And this is supposed to be one of the more respectable places for political discussion on the internet?
   563. dog poop god Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:18 AM (#5580119)
Correct on both counts

We are a highly adaptable species -- there's more than one way to skin a cat --but we still have certain immutable characteristics that make us a species.

Still, I wouldn't rule out future female rule completely if men are subjugated. As Morty points out, the majority of women may say "no deal."
   564. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:19 AM (#5580120)
But an obviously true one.

Like women pre-internet sat around all day discussing men they label as "their rapist" as women do now on Jezebel. The technology has changed their perception of the world.
SBB is an expert on what women talked about amongst themselves pre-internet.
   565. The Good Face Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:20 AM (#5580121)
What I find interesting is that the argument follows a similar path as the libertarian argument about the role of government. Just because government/patriarchy appears to be universal in civilized history, doesn't mean government/patriarchy is necessary for civilization.


I'd thought of that parallel as well. The people insisting that civilization CAN SO exist without patriarchy are awfully similar to doctrinaire libertarians in both the stridency and wrongness of their beliefs. Sure it's never happened in human history and there's no sign of that changing, but it totally could and will. One of these days. Because they really, really, REALLY want that to be the case.
   566. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:23 AM (#5580123)
The internet also permits people to inhabit their own reality, thus eliminating the shared principles that form society's glue.


"Gentlemen, progress has never been a bargain. You have to pay for it! Sometimes I think there's a man who sits behind a counter and says, 'All right, you can have a telephone. But you lose privacy, and the charm of distance. Madam, you may vote, but at a price. You lose the right to retreat behind the powder puff, or your petticoat. Mister, you may conquer the air! But the birds will lose their wonder, and the clouds will smell of gasoline.' Darwin took us forward to a hilltop from where we could look back and see the way from which we came. But for this insight, and for this knowledge, we must abandon our faith in the pleasant poetry of Genesis."
   567. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:24 AM (#5580126)
Certainly, as you say, we're not seeing civilization fall apart with the weakening of patriarchy

THE SBB-SIGNAL!


I would hope that even he might remember that "The Decline" - dumb as it is - only applies (in his formulation) to the US. Maybe* it has changed, but I don't think SBB ever claimed all of civilization was declining since 1979, only the US.

Even including "The Decline", however, in the 200 years before 1979 the Patriarchy diminished greatly here in the US in innumerable ways, and yet still we hit a "peak" in 1979. Clearly extracting Patriarchy from the US civilization didn't harm us then.

* Who am I kidding, of course it has changed. Likely in a thousand nonsensical ways.

Keep waiting for that unicorn to show up. I'm sure it'll happen any day now. Yup. Aaaaaaaany day.


Hey I noticed you ignored all the rest of what I was saying. See I purposefully reject your really terrible logic that "Every civilization (as TGF defines it) contains elements of the Patriarchy" is the same as saying "Patriarchy is inextricable from civilization".

Anyone over the age of about eight can recognize the two statements are not the same. I mean I know why you want to change from defending your dumb statement "Patriarchy is inextricable from civilization" into defending your more defensible statement, but how about we try to keep those goal posts in place.
   568. The Good Face Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:25 AM (#5580127)
So we had one person, Joyful Calculus Instructor in post 451, who had enough sense of right and wrong to acknowledge that Misirlou was lying about me.

And this is supposed to be one of the more respectable places for political discussion on the internet?


He was absolutely lying about you. Shamelessly and repeatedly. I realize I'm not on the side you're looking for admissions from, but it's still worth noting. It's a good thing baseball season is over because I could easily see him shooting up a GOP softball game. Guy is nuts.
   569. Morty Causa Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:28 AM (#5580130)
That's sort of built into "patriarchy" though. Or at least, as I understand the term as used by historians of gender I'm familiar with (and to a lesser extent gender theorists whose work informs theirs). The "Patriarch" isn't just a stand-in for "man", but rather a very specific, exclusive, kind of man.

A patriarchy is just as much about establishing a social hierarchy within genders as it is between genders.


If you like, but that's not given a due measure of composed and objective consideration in discussion here and other identity-driven venues.
   570. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:28 AM (#5580131)
I'd thought of that parallel as well. The people insisting that civilization CAN SO exist without patriarchy are awfully similar to doctrinaire libertarians in both the stridency and wrongness of their beliefs. Sure it's never happened in human history and there's no sign of that changing, but it totally could and will. One of these days. Because they really, really, REALLY want that to be the case.


Nonsense. You made a categorical statement and have not defended it or given any explanation for the mechanism. Right now you are just waving your hands and declaring "correlation IS causation, because I say so!"

If you were honest you would define civilization, explain how the patriarchy is necessary for civilization to exist, and explain how world wide patriarchal power structures are diminishing while civilization is continuing apace - and yet your theory still holds.

You can't do any of that though, instead you are too busy trying to move the goal posts.
   571. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:28 AM (#5580132)
TGF lies more than any poster on this board. And of course, his fourth sentence @568 is explicitly designed to troll and "libel" Miserlou as something completely false.
   572. Jack Keefe Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:28 AM (#5580133)
Why then there would be complaints about men merely attempting to instigate heterosexual romance and sex is quite ... odd

They are only a complaint when they is Ash Holes about it Al all though Ozzie Guillen all ways said I must say Anally Enhanced Americans.
   573. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:29 AM (#5580134)
He was absolutely lying about you. Shamelessly and repeatedly. I realize I'm not on the side you're looking for admissions from, but it's still worth noting. It's a good thing baseball season is over because I could easily see him shooting up a GOP softball game. Guy is nuts.


It makes me understand more why you said that refusing to ever concede a point to the opposition, ever, is the way to go. Because that's their approach, but they don't only do that; in this case Misirlou went further to misrepresent my position as the OPPOSITE of what it was. Repeatedly and without being shamed by the community.
   574. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:33 AM (#5580139)
TGF lies more than any poster on this board. And of course, his fourth sentence @568 is explicitly designed to troll and "libel" Miserlou as something completely false.


While you can never predict who will shoot up a GOP softball game, TGF is right; Misirlou is nuts.
   575. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:34 AM (#5580141)
What I find interesting is that the argument follows a similar path as the libertarian argument about the role of government. Just because government/patriarchy appears to be universal in civilized history, doesn't mean government/patriarchy is necessary for civilization.


The difference is in modern society there is a very pronounced tendency away from Libertarian ideals and towards more and more government. Not only has there never been a Libertarian government in the history of the world, but we are getting further and further away from it.

On the other hand, there are arguably non-Patriarchal societies and even more to the point across the world the influence of the Patriarchy is decreasing over time, while civilization continues increasing its scope.

There are superficial similarities, but I think you are overstating them.

And of course I have not said one could not have a Libertarian state. I think it unlikely, but I don't know that it is impossible. TGF is claiming it (Civilization without Patriarchy) is impossible. He is making a stronger claim with poorer evidence.
   576. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:35 AM (#5580142)
Another post, another lie from Misirlou.


Miserlou is enforcing the dictates of his tribe. Since you do not follow them to the letter, he feels free to cast you aside and say about you anything that he subjectively feels like saying. Only members of his tribe deserve truthful commentary (*) -- that's the nature of tribalism.

Anyone who thinks the internet and message board culture hasn't "changed" someone like him warrants rendition to the nearest rubber room.

(*) To the extent there even is such a thing.

   577. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:39 AM (#5580148)
Still, I wouldn't rule out future female rule completely if men are subjugated. As Morty points out, the majority of women may say "no deal."


I don't go in for the TGF/SBB grand clashes of civilizations and cultures, but if I did --

Why should we assume that 'women' - or whatever dominant culture 'conquers' us - would behave the same way we did?

I don't really even remember the backdrop, but I recall a scene from the West Wing TV show where the British ambassador played as a sort of cad by Roger Rees tells Leo McGarrity as they discuss some difficult foreign policy situation, urging caution and restraint, that "we" (meaning the British) recognize that our time in the sun is coming to an end and blah-blah. It was more earnest than patronizing.

So - just assuming for a moment that the Fall of Straight White Male Christian European civilization is upon us, I would be entirely sanguine about it as a member of that 'tribe'. We've done some impressive things for which we should be rightfully proud. We've also done some terrible things for which we should be ashamed. If "our" turn is just about up, so be it. Ours wasn't the first turn nor will it be the last. It's folly to assume whomever rules the roost next is only going to return in kind the things that weren't our finest hour.
   578. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:39 AM (#5580149)
I have not been following the Ray whine fest, and so I missed the transition into suggesting other posters might be potential mass murderers - but yeah I think some folks here maybe should take a step back and rethink what they have written. I expect that sort of thing from TGF, but no one else should give that nonsense the time of day.
   579. Morty Causa Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:40 AM (#5580150)
Ray, did you or did you not admit that if worst came to worst you'd reluctantly have pulled the voting lever for Trump despite the--ahem--flaws in his character, which included the #####-grabbing? If so, surely you can at least understand why some think you are a dyed-in-the-wool partisan despite all protestations to the contrary.
   580. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:43 AM (#5580151)
Leo McGarrity
McGarry.
   581. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:45 AM (#5580154)
I would hope that even he might remember that "The Decline" - dumb as it is - only applies (in his formulation) to the US. Maybe* it has changed, but I don't think SBB ever claimed all of civilization was declining since 1979, only the US.
I'm pretty sure that's wrong. He has certainly primarily focused on the U.S., but he has repeatedly cited some book that discusses 1979 being a turning point around the world with the Iranian Revolution and rise of Thatcher and a few other things, and cited those as parallel to the U.S.
   582. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:46 AM (#5580156)
I have not been following the Ray whine fest,


Oh, then let me get you up to speed: Misirlou told several lies that I supported a child molester for Senate, despite me saying repeatedly that I opposed Moore and that Moore should step down and I'd vote for Jones rather than see him in the Senate.

Now that you're caught up, do you acknowledge that Misirlou is a liar?
   583. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:49 AM (#5580157)
Still, I wouldn't rule out future female rule completely if men are subjugated.


Women aren't physically powerful enough to subjugate men and men are physically powerful enough to subjugate women. Fundamental, immutable law of nature.
   584. The Good Face Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:49 AM (#5580158)
Nonsense. You made a categorical statement and have not defended it or given any explanation for the mechanism. Right now you are just waving your hands and declaring "correlation IS causation, because I say so!"


I merely stated the truth; all civilizations are patriarchal. If it's not true, it should be simplicity itself for you to present a counterexample. But you can't do that. You haven't even tried. You've merely said, "Well, it like, doesn't HAVE to be that way man." Maybe not. But it IS that way, and HAS BEEN that way for the entirety of human history. So you just keep waiting for that unicorn. I'm sure it'll show up any day now.

It makes me understand more why you said that refusing to ever concede a point to the opposition, ever, is the way to go. Because they refuse to concede a point, but they don't only do that; in this case Misirlou went further to misrepresent my position as the OPPOSITE of what it was.


Leftists lie. It's what they do, it's who they are. To be fair, it's hard to blame them. Lies and nonsense are often better organizing tools than the truth. Anybody can believe in true things, that's easy. But to believe in nonsense? That's an unforgeable demonstration of loyalty. It's like a political uniform. And if you have enough people wearing uniforms, you have an army. Why do you think so much of leftism today is predicated on believing outrageous lies?
   585. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:51 AM (#5580160)

Women aren't physically powerful enough to subjugate men and men are physically powerful enough to subjugate women. Fundamental, immutable law of nature.
Depends whether liberals can actually convince people that men-who-think-they're-women are actually women.
   586. Hysterical & Useless Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:51 AM (#5580161)
Ray, I've been trying to catch up here.

I do not like to use the words "lie" or "liar", because, to me, they seem to claim a knowledge of the interior states of others which I see no justification for claiming. So I'm not going to call anyone a liar. I will, however, say that I think your position in this case has been misrepresented. Unfortunately, this is not an uncommon occurrence either here or elsewhere on the internet or IRL. Such misrepresentation is an all-too-common technique of argumentation and I try to ignore it when I see it happening. If I'm feeling really confrontational, I might bring out the heavy guns of restating what I think the correct interpretation is.
   587. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:52 AM (#5580163)

Leftists lie. It's what they do, it's who they are.
So that's what you were referring to when you considered yourself closer to the Democratic Party?

(The first alt-Right Jewish Democrat, folks!)
   588. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:54 AM (#5580168)
FTR -

None of you will be references on/if my next job application, none of you will be called as character witnesses should I stand trial, and the one and only time I asked a special lady friend to read a subthread, offer her opinion, and help me win an argument, she just rolled her eyes and said "You're a genius, you win. You should punish them by leaving and starting the movie we were going to watch".... I can't prove it, but her response seemed far too quick for her to have actually read what I wanted her to read, so it may not have been sincere.

   589. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:56 AM (#5580169)
Women aren't physically powerful enough to subjugate men and men are physically powerful enough to subjugate women. Fundamental, immutable law of nature.


It's possible we may have stumbled onto the root of your fear of technology...
   590. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:56 AM (#5580170)
YR, any good reactions from the online young deplorables this week with net neutrality back in the news? See, there I understand the feeling to laugh my e-buns off at the fact that /the_donald will be super bummed at their leader's administration sticking it to them after they went all in for the troll.


r/the_donald was actively banning users who posted about net neutrality yesterday, so I think you know where they stand on the issue. I haven't checked in with any of the other alt-right forums, I have family in town this week and my mom just doesn't understand the concept of "lulz".
   591. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:56 AM (#5580171)
I merely stated the truth; all civilizations are patriarchal.


That is not what you said. It is maybe what you wish you said, but nope.
499. The Good Face Posted: November 22, 2017 at 10:07 AM (#5580029)

At the risk of pissing off TGF or perros yes, it's obvious, (and has this last month's worth of tales of men behaving badly not utterly confirmed it once and for all?) we live in a patricharal society.




Huh? Of course we live in a patriarchal society. Patriarchy is an inextricable element of civilization.


I am amused you keep ignoring the fact that patriarchy has been in decline for several centuries and civilization has shown no sign of stopping. Care to explain?
   592. Hot Wheeling American Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:57 AM (#5580173)
Rickey has been a ####-poster for some time now, but the biggest repeated lie here remains TGF's claim that Rickey is an anti-semite.
   593. The Good Face Posted: November 22, 2017 at 11:59 AM (#5580176)
So that's what you were referring to when you considered yourself closer to the Democratic Party?


Except I never said that. I said I was closer to the policy positions of the Democratic Party.
   594. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 22, 2017 at 12:01 PM (#5580178)
It's a good thing baseball season is over because I could easily see him shooting up a GOP softball game.

Where would you be seeing him from? Your high rise apartment with the shades drawn?

One thing's for sure around here: Nobody here has ever seen you.
   595. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 22, 2017 at 12:03 PM (#5580181)
One thing's for sure around here: Nobody here has ever seen you.


Hey, look everybody! Andy's obsessing about "anonymity" again!!
   596. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 22, 2017 at 12:05 PM (#5580183)
Your regular reminder that so-called "net neutrality" was not in effect in the U.S. until mid-2015, and yet advocates can cite only one instance in 20 years of the Internet of an alleged problem


Find more advocates.

For years a lineup of phone- and cable-industry spokespeople has called Net Neutrality “a solution in search of a problem.”

The principle that protects free speech and innovation online is irrelevant, they claim, as blocking has never, ever happened. And if it did, they add, market forces would compel internet service providers to correct course and reopen their networks.

In reality, many providers both in the United States and abroad have violated the principles of Net Neutrality — and they plan to continue doing so in the future.
   597. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 22, 2017 at 12:06 PM (#5580184)
Rickey has been a ####-poster for some time now, but the biggest repeated lie here remains TGF's claim that Rickey is an anti-semite.


I won't render a verdict, other than to say:

1. He detests Israel.
2. He doesn't believe Israel should exist as a predominantly Jewish state.
3. He has said anti-Semitic things about "dual loyalties" and Israelis.
4. He's closer to an anti-Semite than anyone else on the board and is closer to an anti-Semite than anyone else on the board is to being a "racist" or "misogynist" or "homophobe."

(There's also a "5," which is that he lies about what people think routinely, but the stuff he says is so sophomoric and silly that it's like being yelled at by a 9-year-old, so it's easily ignored.)
   598. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: November 22, 2017 at 12:08 PM (#5580185)
I do not like to use the words "lie" or "liar", because, to me, they seem to claim a knowledge of the interior states of others which I see no justification for claiming. So I'm not going to call anyone a liar. I will, however, say that I think your position in this case has been misrepresented. Unfortunately, this is not an uncommon occurrence either here or elsewhere on the internet or IRL. Such misrepresentation is an all-too-common technique of argumentation and I try to ignore it when I see it happening. If I'm feeling really confrontational, I might bring out the heavy guns of restating what I think the correct interpretation is.

And I will point out that Ray states such misrepresentations more often than most around here. Yet he is always the first to scream 'liar!' While always refusing to hold himself to the same standard that he demands of others.

Which is why I have stayed out of this primary school nonsense. There are certainly posters here, who I would have defended if they had been treated the way Ray was here. But given his own past behavior, and the utter childishness of his replies, my sympathy was more than a little muted.
   599. The Good Face Posted: November 22, 2017 at 12:09 PM (#5580186)
I am amused you keep ignoring the fact that patriarchy has been in decline for several centuries and civilization has shown no sign of stopping. Care to explain?


Aside from the fact you're begging the question, your conclusion doesn't address my claim. Or are you claiming that Western civilization today is completely free of Patriarchy?

   600. Morty Causa Posted: November 22, 2017 at 12:10 PM (#5580187)
To the extent we can say all cultures have been patriarchal, it is because males and females make different investments in that culture. Males always made an investment that females didn't have to make. (This doesn't mean that females didn't have their risks and leverages in that society.) But, males went to war. If they lost, the outcome for them is very different than it is for women.

Then, of course, there is the elephant in the room that is always ignored in these discussions: "it's the pregnancy, stupid." Women wanted protection for themselves and their children from other men. Men didn't want women who were passed around like a doobie. They wanted to know who their children were. Women don't have that problem. They always know. This shouldn't be ignored in discussing the history of the role of the sexes in societies. It shouldn't be ignored that that has changed and is changing even more, even more quickly.
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