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Tuesday, August 22, 2017

OTP 22 August 2017: The myth of baseball’s depoliticalization

The cornerstone of a democratic republic is civic engagement in service of civic virtue, to be aware of fellow citizens’ struggles and to doggedly fight injustice and oppression. In today’s America, much of this engagement is missing, and it is viewed less as a responsibility held by every citizen than the task of few professional groups. But when it comes to Nazism, it should be the duty of every person, doubly so for white people, to vociferously denounce the individuals and the ideals themselves, to stamp them down in every area of society. The silence of white MLB players is thus telling of the way baseball players in the past have interacted with politics and its relationship to the larger degradation of American democracy.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:43 AM | 1771 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   101. Covfefe Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:08 PM (#5518716)
Are you saying fascists are good?


No, he's just attempting set the new world record for tedious... and I would just remind everyone that it doesn't count if he has help.
   102. DavidFoss Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:09 PM (#5518717)
F'in' North Korea made nukes despite being largely isolated in science/tech/etc.


This is 1945 technology. I'm surprised the "secrets" have been kept for so long. Isn't it just a question of access to enough Uranium to enrich?
   103. PreservedFish Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:10 PM (#5518718)
Village Voice ending print edition.


Ouch. That hits hard.
   104. Dan The Mediocre is one of "the rest" Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:11 PM (#5518720)
Can you even make a nuke with 20% enriched uranium? I thought it was more like 95%. I think 20% just a starting point, maybe for a plutonium breeder reactor? Strangely I feel compelled to not google this.


20% is a level high enough that you can use new methods of enrichment that handle much less at a time. As an example, the Manhattan project used thermal diffusion to go from 0.7% U-235 to 0.9%, then used gaseous diffusion to boost it to 23%, then finished it with magnetic diffusion to push it to 89%. But using just magnetic diffusion from 0.7% would have required pushing through 30x as much uranium, which wasn't really feasible.
   105. BrianBrianson Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:11 PM (#5518722)

1. No one should be surprised that Iran might be able to make weapons-grade uranium relatively quickly because
2. Any deal that disposes of the tools to make it cannot dispose of the knowledge, meaning
3. Any agreement is only as good as each side's word that they'll stand by the terms.


I'd agree to all these points.

As far as Jason ... I think his wife left him for Iran or something. Certainly Iran makes him lose all reason.
   106. PreservedFish Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:12 PM (#5518723)
Whenever a crowd of people on the left shows up in the future to denounce Nazis and there are some antifa mixed in with the left then I presume that the Very Fine People on the left will disperse and leave the area immediately, not wanting to associate with antifa.


Ray doesn't understand the anger at Trump's equivocation because apparently he agrees that the Nazis and antifa are morally equivalent.
   107. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:14 PM (#5518724)
Why should we abandon people who want to oppose fascism? Are you saying fascists are good?

"No enemies to the left!" Good luck with that. Again.
   108. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:15 PM (#5518725)
As far as Jason ... I think his wife left him for Iran or something.


Careful, if you say his name three times he will show up and whine about what a jerk you are.
   109. DavidFoss Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:18 PM (#5518728)
"No enemies to the left!" Good luck with that. Again.


Ha ha... "both sides" hasn't played well this month. You're searching for boogeymen on the left to legitimize Trump's rants last week.
   110. Covfefe Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:18 PM (#5518729)
I've pointed out page 2 of this thread to the Guinness Records folks. You were warned.
   111. Rockwell Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:19 PM (#5518731)
Ray doesn't understand the anger at Trump's equivocation because apparently he agrees that the Nazis and antifa are morally equivalent.


They aren't morally equivalent, but as to an indispensible element of valid political participation -- the eschewing of organized political street violence -- they are precisely identical. It was that identity on which Trump (and others) focused his comments, and he didn't say word one beyond that. Beyond, of course, the many words he used to denounce the KKK, racism, white nationalism, and the puke who ran Heather Heyer over with a car as compared to the zero words he used to denigrate the anti-Nazi cause. To which the retort revolved around jaws and Teleprompters.

The logic fail here is that pointing out a material similarity between two things, is thereby "equating" them.
   112. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:22 PM (#5518734)
Whenever a crowd of people on the left shows up in the future to denounce Nazis and there are some antifa mixed in with the left then I presume that the Very Fine People on the left will disperse and leave the area immediately, not wanting to associate with antifa.

Why should we abandon people who want to oppose fascism? Are you saying fascists are good?


Did you cross your eyes while playing dumb there?

People should abandon any group whose primary tactic is violence. Here's the definition of "antifa" from the NYT:

Antifa

“Antifa” is a contraction of the word “anti-fascist.” It was coined in Germany in the 1960s and 1970s by a network of groups that spread across Europe to confront right-wing extremists, according to Mr. Pitcavage. A similar movement was seen in the 1980s in the United States and has re-emerged recently as the “alt-right” has risen to prominence.

For some so-called antifa members, the goal is to physically confront white supremacists. “If they can get at them, to assault them and engage in street fighting,” Mr. Pitcavage said. Mr. Lenz, at the Southern Poverty Law Center, called the group “an old left-wing extremist movement.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/15/us/politics/alt-left-alt-right-glossary.html
   113. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:22 PM (#5518735)
Clearly someone IS tired of all the winning ... Pro-Trump Rallies in 36 States Canceled, Will Be Held As Online Demonstrations

Pro-Trump rallies that were originally being planned for roughly 37 locations across the US have been canceled. The rallies, scheduled for September 9th, were being coordinated by ACT For America, a pro-Trump and anti-Muslim hate group best known for its “March Against Sharia” back in June. The group said it will instead hold online demonstrations.


Ooooh, online "demonstrations". If a keyboard clicks in a loser's mother's basement will anyone notice?

But there’s some speculation online that the pro-Trump crowd had other motives for canceling the events. Pro-Trump demonstrators were vastly outnumbered in Boston over the weekend, making it clear that Americans are ready to stand up against hate and bigotry in large public settings. Roughly 40,000 anti-fascist demonstrators rallied in Boston compared to just 100 or so fascists who huddled in a safe space.

ACT For America had attempted to rally its followers on Facebook, but the showing was poor to say the least. Judging by a quick perusal of the Facebook events, it seems like the organization has had very little interest from the public, which is perhaps the real reason for the cancellation.
   114. Covfefe Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:26 PM (#5518737)
Clearly someone IS tired of all the winning ... Pro-Trump Rallies in 36 States Canceled, Will Be Held As Online Demonstrations


This means what... a lot more of that Call of Duty face-sitting after a kill thing this weekend?
   115. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:27 PM (#5518738)
Oh, look - Nelson Draws Democratic Fire For Ducking Confederate Monument Question:
U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson, the sole statewide elected Democrat in Trump-state Florida, ducked a question about removing Confederate monuments and is now getting grief from members of his own party who worry he’s estranging African-Americans and progressives as he faces a tough reelection campaign next year.
. . .
Many Democratic insiders shook their heads and worried that Nelson’s approach was a sign he doesn’t appreciate the fervor of progressives, namely supporters of former presidential candidate, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.). They say Nelson is likely to face his toughest challenge ever, from Florida Gov. Rick Scott, next year, and the Democrat can’t win if progressives aren’t excited.

"It seems that Bill Nelson doesn't want to take a stand on the issue for political reasons. But this is not the time to shrink back from what he knows is right," said state Sen. Randolph Bracy, an African-American Democrat who is considering a primary challenge to Nelson.

Nelson will be 76 by Election Day 2018, and is likely facing his most difficult contest since being elected to the Senate in 2000. Doesn't look like others in the party are interested in giving him much room to maneuver, either.
   116. DavidFoss Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:30 PM (#5518740)
Pro-Trump demonstrators were vastly outnumbered in Boston over the weekend


I'm critical when the spin goes the other way... I gotta call this one. I don't think the demonstrators in Boston were "pro-Trump". Trump has gotten in trouble for rooting for these people they're not in existence to support him. Same with some of the other cancelled rally. A "March Against Sharia", I mean one can imagine Trump rooting for those guys too but it would be trolling to call them "pro-Trump".

   117. TDF, FCL Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:31 PM (#5518742)
For some so-called antifa members, the goal is to physically confront white supremacists.
So because some people who say they are antifa want to physically confront white supremacists, all people opposed to fascism are bad?
   118. The Good Face Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:31 PM (#5518743)
Whenever a crowd of people on the left shows up in the future to denounce Nazis and there are some antifa mixed in with the left then I presume that the Very Fine People on the left will disperse and leave the area immediately, not wanting to associate with antifa.

(Same goes for "What do we want, dead cops, when do we want them, now.")


They'll defend it. You see, Antifa are ok because they have "good intentions". So even though Antifa assault peaceful protesters, cops, or random passers by, there's nothing wrong with associating with them because they mean well. They're fighting people who have bad thoughts! Or who might have bad thoughts. Or who happen to look wrong. Can't be too careful with thought criminals.

The left is largely immune to hypocrisy (although it's still fun and worthwhile to point it out) because they subscribe to an essentially pre-modern morality where there is no such thing as good and evil, there is only good and bad, where good represents things that help them achieve their goals and bad represents things that hinder or threaten them and their goals.

Look at how they've utterly flip flopped on any number of issues over the past few decades.

Big Corporations used to be stigmatized as bastions of conservatism which made them bad. Now, big corporations police speech leftists don't like and that the government legally can't. Big corporations are good.

The Christian Right supported conservatives, so organized religion was bad. Muslims and their descendants will vote against those conservatives. Islam is good.

Free speech used to be good when the left was weak because it prevented leftists from losing their rights. Now, free speech is used by conservatives to undermine the leftist narrative, and that makes it bad.

Political violence used to be bad because it could be used against leftists by a conservative majority. Now, violence can be used against enemies of the left without recourse so political violence is good.

Government spying was bad when Dubya was doing it, but good when Obama was doing it.

Etc.

Leftists are actually pretty easy to understand once you grasp the underlying morality that drives them.
   119. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:31 PM (#5518744)
Ray doesn't understand the anger at Trump's equivocation because apparently he agrees that the Nazis and antifa are morally equivalent.


Speaking of tedious... Stupid arguments remain stupid.

Anyway, if you're defending antifa: Why should they stop at violently attacking Nazis? Why not just shoot the Nazis dead on sight? And do the same for, say, child molesters?

How far are you willing to go here just because their core belief that Nazis are scum is a good one.

Well, that's one core belief. The other apparently is that violence is permissible as long as your target is scum. That brings us to (a) what level of violence is too much? and (b) why not expand your targets out to child rapists and other such scum?
   120. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:32 PM (#5518746)
People should abandon any group whose primary tactic is violence.


I don't feel the need to abandon any group I never joined, never supported in any way, nor even have ever heard of before last week. Maybe I am funny that way though.

I am willing to stipulate that I am not a fan of any group whose primary tactic is violence, well maybe. I mean is the US Military's primary tactic violence? They protect my country (and many other countries) so I am not sure I should abandon them, especially since many in my friends and family have served or are serving.

I think I will continue to hold to not abandoning any group whose primary tactic is violence and be more concerned with learning more about those groups. Still, so far not much about antifa impresses me, so if I had ever supported them, I would in fact have long since abandoned them.
   121. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:34 PM (#5518748)
Why should we abandon people who want to oppose fascism? Are you saying fascists are good?

Antifa seeks to normalize itself by focusing attention on who they claim to oppose, even while they embrace the same tactics, but that doesn't seem to be actually working beyond the fringe left. BTW, why do you think they're wearing masks? Do you really think that's lost on normal people?
   122. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:36 PM (#5518750)
or some so-called antifa members, the goal is to physically confront white supremacists.

So because some people who say they are antifa want to physically confront white supremacists, all people opposed to fascism are bad?


Crossing your eyes again?

No, what follows is not "so all people opposed to fascism are bad" but "so all people standing next to the people whose primary tactic is to initiate violence against white supremacists" is bad.
   123. madvillain Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:41 PM (#5518755)
I just liked Ray using the NYT's definition of antifa. Hopefully he also follows their style section as he'll only be a year or so behind.
   124. The Good Face Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:41 PM (#5518756)
Anyway, if you're defending antifa: Why should they stop violently attacking Nazis? Why not just shoot the Nazis dead on sight? And do the same for, say, child molesters?

How far are you willing to go here just because their core belief that Nazis are scum is a good one.


I'd say the bigger problem is these people are convinced Mitt Romney voters are Nazis.
   125. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:43 PM (#5518757)
Antifa seeks to normalize itself by focusing attention on who they claim to oppose,


And the leftists here have fallen for it.
   126. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:43 PM (#5518759)
Pro-Trump rallies that were originally being planned for roughly 37 locations across the US have been canceled. The rallies, scheduled for September 9th, were being coordinated by ACT For America, a pro-Trump and anti-Muslim hate group best known for its “March Against Sharia” back in June. The group said it will instead hold online demonstrations.

Oooooohhh, bring out the crying towels. Someone called ACT For America a hate group!
   127. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:48 PM (#5518761)
I'd say the bigger problem is these people are convinced Mitt Romney voters are Nazis.


Sure they are. The people in your dreams are both scary and idiots, as needed for your arguments. Must be nice.
   128. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:49 PM (#5518762)
Pro-Trump demonstrators were vastly outnumbered in Boston over the weekend

I'm critical when the spin goes the other way... I gotta call this one. I don't think the demonstrators in Boston were "pro-Trump". Trump has gotten in trouble for rooting for these people they're not in existence to support him. Same with some of the other cancelled rally. A "March Against Sharia", I mean one can imagine Trump rooting for those guys too but it would be trolling to call them "pro-Trump".

They're not in existence to support him, but they support him almost unanimously.

As for the "March Against Sharia", about the only way that group wouldn't be supporting Trump would be if they thought he wasn't going far enough.
   129. Covfefe Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:49 PM (#5518763)
Speaking of tedious... Stupid arguments remain stupid.


Indeed.... like the argument that completely ignores proportionality you and yours have been stuck with for a squared jaw week now.

I.e., Most of the estimates seem to put Boston's "anti" march at 40,000. I've seen NO estimates below "at least 20,000". IIRC, the arrest total was 33? Let's be generous and say they only got 1 in 10 Auntie Fahs... Is your opinion that the 99.9% of marchers each have a responsibility to ascertain the political leanings and potential extremism of all X tens of thousands?

Conversely, while I suppose it was more SBB's bag than you (you all do start to sound alike at some point, though) -- the argument, never proven, mind you - of the poor historical preservationists among the Nazis.... Estimates there seem to put the Nazi crowd in the hundreds... and even using the "PROVE IT!" SBB definition - I'd be willing to bet that just by counting individuals with swastikas/various well-know and accepted runes tattoos/arms extended in Nazi salutes -- I could easily put the proven Nazis well over 50%... probably closer to 90%.

Even IF -- and I don't concede it -- but IF for a minute we pretend the hypothetical equivalency of people being for Nazis being just as bad as people against Nazis, so long as they all employ violence...

That still doesn't handwave away the pure volume and proportion.
   130. BrianBrianson Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:50 PM (#5518766)
Antifa seeks to normalize itself by focusing attention on who they claim to oppose, even while they embrace the same tactics, but that doesn't seem to be actually working beyond the fringe left


Maybe I don't follow this - if only because Ray seems to disagree, but agree at the same time.

Yeah, people are aware there was a rally that was at least partially a Nazi rally, and they're being roundly condemned. Even people who're not Nazis, but just real chummy with the Nazis are being widely condemned (a little bit less widely - Trump seems to think they're good people, being so friendly and all).

Meanwhile, few people have any clue what Antifa is (assuming they're a thing at all), so no one is talking about them. So?
   131. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:52 PM (#5518767)
#3234 from the previous 9-day OTP thread:
I heard Hannity use the term the other day and he flashed the words "THE DEEP STATE" across the screen which is a clear signal to distance oneself from the term.


Hannity uses "The Deep State" as an all-purpose alibi for why the single-party government he adores is unable to accomplish its stated longterm goals. President Trump is strong and able, it's that dastardly Dr. Moriarty and Lord Voldemort and Nurse Ratched and Palpatine and Sauron and Blofeld in their deep state lair who are obstructing MAGA greatness.

He uses "The Destroy Trump Media" to invalidate all negative news, whether it's opinion or straight five W reportage. Conversely, The Destroy Trump Media buries and ignores worthwhile stories that could help Trump, such as the DNC Sean Rich murder conspiracy that Hannity devoted so much nightly airtime to.

Speaking of which...



#30:
FDR would have undertaken almost any means of beating Huey Long, but didn't have to because he conveniently got shot.


While Hillary was (cough, wink) OH so conveniently "not alive yet."
   132. The Good Face Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:53 PM (#5518770)
Sure they are. The people in your dreams are both scary and idiots


They're not scary. Just idiots. And I love 'em for it. Antifa are one of the best things to happen to the right in some time.
   133. Covfefe Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:54 PM (#5518771)
Hannity uses "The Deep State" as an all-purpose alibi for why the single-party government he adores is unable to accomplish its stated longterm goals. President Trump is strong and able, it's that dastardly Dr. Moriarty and Lord Voldemort and Nurse Ratched and Palpatine and Sauron and Blofeld in their deep state lair who are obstructing MAGA greatness.


Still a Rothschild short of Alex Jones :-)
   134. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:56 PM (#5518772)
Even IF -- and I don't concede it -- but IF for a minute we pretend the hypothetical equivalency of people being for Nazis being just as bad as people against Nazis, so long as they all employ violence...


The fact that the Nazi have near universal name recognition for their infamy and the Antifa have ... a near universal "who?", followed by "how do you pronounce/spell that?", means that I totally agree with you, but even if the numbers were equivalent the groups wouldn't be equivalent.

You can't argue "Being called Hitler is the worst thing ever in the history of being called things" and then in the next argument suggest "Nazis? Sure, I guess, but there are thousands of groups just as bad because violence" and even pretend to have any credibility at the end of it. Not that anyone would ever do anything like that.

EDIT: Pro-communist Coke to Brian, son of Brian.
   135. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 04:58 PM (#5518773)
They're not scary.


The mighty and all powerful Cathedral isn't scary? Wait, are you finally admitting is is all stuff and nonsense? Excellent, way to learn and grow as a person.
   136. PreservedFish Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:02 PM (#5518777)
Until Antifa has a bodycount of 6+ million on its hands, it does not "embrace the same tactics" as do avowed neo-Nazis.
   137. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:03 PM (#5518778)
Nelson will be 76 by Election Day 2018, and is likely facing his most difficult contest since being elected to the Senate in 2000. Doesn't look like others in the party are interested in giving him much room to maneuver, either.


If he can't tell which way the wind's blowing on that issue, he probably deserves to get beaten in a primary by someone who can.
   138. dlf Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:04 PM (#5518779)
The only thing I know about Jones is that he was a US attorney, prosecuted a couple of high profile cases, and is at least a lifelong Alabaman...


He was a partner in some of the big prestigious firms in B'ham and is well connected to the 'elites' of the state.



FTR - I've quite enjoyed my trips to Alabama. Attending a Tide football Saturday is something every college gridiron fan needs to make a point of doing...


Alabama has some amazing beaches and the bbq at Archibalds is better than anything I've had in Kansas City or Memphis or Austin. But while I'm a graduate of UA (law) and my wife was raised in Tuscaloosa and has two BAs from there, I think there is better game experience off the field at several other SEC schools. LSU is great, and while it pains me to admit, Knoxville really does tailgaiting well, but the champ at this is Ole Miss. A weekend at the Grove almost makes up for the fact that it's Ole Miss.
   139. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:09 PM (#5518783)
Be honest, don't we all love a good catfight? And don't we love it even more when the cats are named Trump and Breitbart?

With Bannon back in charge, Breitbart is crushing Trump for his Afghanistan speech
It's officially on.

Breitbart News, with former White House chief strategist Stephen K. Bannon back in charge, is ripping mad at President Trump after Monday's Afghanistan speech foreshadowed an increase in ground troops....

In the hours before the president delivered his prime-time address, I wrote that the speech would be a test for the next phase of his relationship with Bannon, who left Breitbart a year ago to become chief executive of Trump's campaign and then served as his top strategist in the White House until Friday. I figured that Bannon wouldn't like what Trump had to say and that his displeasure would show up in Breitbart's coverage.

But wow. I was not prepared for this level of fury.

What's striking about Breitbart's coverage is the way its writers took direct aim at Trump, instead of his advisers.

The best example is the headline that refers to “President H.R. McMaster,” Trump's national security adviser. It's a play on a memorable New York Times editorial headline from January: “President Bannon?” (A Times editorial published on the day of Bannon's ouster read, “Farewell, President Bannon.")

Bannon knows better than anyone how deeply the perception that someone else is calling the shots wounds Trump's pride. By suggesting that McMaster is the “president,” Bannon is trolling Trump. Hard.

The other thing that stands out in Breitbart's coverage is zero tolerance for Trump's spin, which the site typically amplifies. Trump did his best on Monday to paint his reversal on sending more troops to Afghanistan as a result of gaining a better understanding of the situation than he had before his election.

“My original instinct was to pull out — and, historically, I like following my instincts,” he said. “But all my life I've heard that decisions are much different when you sit behind the desk in the Oval Office; in other words, when you're president of the United States.”

Breitbart isn't buying it. As Raheem Kassam put it, “this isn’t about changing his perspective on the war. … This was about the swamp getting to him.”...

None of this means that Breitbart is jumping off the Trump Train permanently. But it sure looks like the feud between Bannon and his former boss is real — and ready to flare up whenever he thinks the president is betraying a campaign promise.
   140. TDF, FCL Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:11 PM (#5518785)
Of course, there were peaceful protesters who were glad for the antifa in Charlottesville:
The scholar and activist Cornel West told the newscast “Democracy Now!” that anti-fascists saved his life and the lives of other nonviolent clergy members in Charlottesville. “We would have been crushed like cockroaches were it not for the anarchists and the anti-fascists,” he said on the show. “You had police holding back and just allowing fellow citizens to go at each other.”
So, you know, maybe they weren't initiating violence as much physically protecting people.
   141. PreservedFish Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:12 PM (#5518786)
“My original instinct was to pull out — and, historically, I like following my instincts,” he said. “But all my life I've heard that decisions are much different when you sit behind the desk in the Oval Office; in other words, when you're president of the United States.”


This is honestly heartening to hear.
   142. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:13 PM (#5518787)
“My original instinct was to pull out


Signed,
Fred Trump.
   143. madvillain Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:17 PM (#5518790)
Breitbart isn't buying it. As Raheem Kassam put it, “this isn’t about changing his perspective on the war. … This was about the swamp getting to him.”...


*sigh* McMaster is the swamp apparently. Christ. How dumb and gullible are Breitbart readers?
   144. The Good Face Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:19 PM (#5518793)
Until Antifa has a bodycount of 6+ million on its hands, it does not "embrace the same tactics" as do avowed neo-Nazis.


If we're going to pin the bodycount of the Nazis on the neo-Nazis, seems fair we should pin the bodycounts of Stalin and Mao on the neo-Stalinists/Maoists/Antifa.
   145. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:20 PM (#5518794)
In other GOP news ... Recallmania by GOP reveals desperation about 2018 map, willingness to subvert process


The real secret here, though, is not who is behind this. The dirty secret here is this is grounded not in political principles but in campaign panic because the Republicans essentially have no chance to take the state Senate at the ballot in ‘18.

But forget for a moment that this is an outrageous abuse of the recall process and a subversion of democracy by political clods who are desperate to recapture the state Senate by any means necessary. Forget for a moment that recalls should only be undertaken in extreme circumstances such as malfeasance in office or ethical transgressions – I don’t even think Roberson’s malleable principles would have been grounds for one, and certainly Woodhouse or Farley or any other targeted Democratic senators have not committed anything close to such an egregious breach. Even forget for a moment that the Republicans are using divisive issues such as Roberson’s favorite, so-called sanctuary cities, a non-issue in Nevada and a dog whistle to racists, and probably will involve Education Savings Accounts, too.

Even if you succumb to that trifecta of temporary amnesia, ask yourself this question: If all of this is so righteous, if the grounds are really there, why is there this conspiracy of secrecy on what should be public information? Even if they are not required by a typically porous Nevada law to reveal their reasons until they submit the signatures, why won’t they talk about their putative reasons for trying to recall these senators?

I’ll tell you why: Because they are desperate, because they know they are unlikely to win back the Senate at the ballot next year and because…they can. That is the standard in the Era of Trump, a perversion of the Nike slogan applied to campaigns and politics: Just Do It.


Sounds bad. Desperation is a bad look and the voters tend not to like such recall attempts (Ask Scott Walker and Wisconsin voters). Still is it that bad?
GOP plot against state senators an affront to Nevada voters

An effort by Nevada Republicans to recall two Democratic state senators and replace them with GOP candidates is despicable in so many respects, it’s hard to know where to start criticizing it.

So in no particular order, here are some of the key problems with it: It’s an abuse of the recall provision, an attempt to hijack the democratic process, an affront to voters, a possible step toward nonstop elections and a potential form of political bullying that will only add to the corrosiveness of partisanship in the Legislature.


Like I said desperate is a bad look.
   146. Mans Best Friend Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:22 PM (#5518796)
Until Antifa has a bodycount of 6+ million on its hands, it does not "embrace the same tactics" as do avowed neo-Nazis.

The neo-Nazis haven't killed six million, either.
   147. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:23 PM (#5518798)
The neo-Nazis haven't killed six million, either.


No, they just idolize those that did, are sad the Nazi failed, and want to be just like them. That is ... something I guess.
   148. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:25 PM (#5518799)
#103:
Village Voice ending print edition.

Ouch. That hits hard.



The Village Voice used to be a thick, heavy read. Like most alt-weeklies in this publishing climate, the Voice is at the point where one could have held up an average-width issue to the sky yesterday, to safely view the solar eclipse through it.
   149. BrianBrianson Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:25 PM (#5518800)
I'm not sure there are any Stalinists around these days*, but one is free to demand any self-identifying Maoists carry the legacy of Mao with them, sure, why not?

*My entire understanding of the current communist heroes comes from trying to understand the split of the Communist Party of Canada, and the Marxist-Leninist Party of Canada. The former are apparently (neo-)Maoists, the latter (neo-)Marxists-Leninists.

And yes, I had to edit to clarify "self-identifying Maoists", not just "someone who may have once read a copy of the (((New))) York Times".
   150. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:25 PM (#5518801)
If we're going to pin the bodycount of the Nazis on the neo-Nazis


Heh. I think your friends would be annoyed that you are trying to put distance between the Nazi and the neo-Nazi (They didn't choose the name on accident after all). But hey when the neo-Stalinists start marching we can hand over Stalin's death toll to them. Good plan.

EDIT: And now a second Communist Coke to Brian, son of Brian. At this rate I will get a bulk discount.
   151. PreservedFish Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:28 PM (#5518803)
Until Antifa has a bodycount of 6+ million on its hands, it does not "embrace the same tactics" as do avowed neo-Nazis.



If we're going to pin the bodycount of the Nazis on the neo-Nazis, seems fair we should pin the bodycounts of Stalin and Mao on the neo-Stalinists/Maoists/Antifa.


It is not at all fair, for obvious reasons. Do you have to make such an obviously poor argument? Neo-Nazis avowedly idolize actual Nazis. But you're just conflating antifa with bad leftists in history. I'll be consistent, however: if antifa show up in Mao suits with little red books, then yes, I'll happily pin the bodycounts on them.
   152. Mans Best Friend Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:28 PM (#5518804)
Face beat me to the punch.

Nobody is obligated to make routine denunciations like a good Commie. Also, it's bad form for a moral scold to adopt an ends justifies the means philosophy.
   153. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:29 PM (#5518805)
Yankee Clapper, #42:
Democrats Could Win 50 House Seats. Here’s How

Is this from the same Bitter Mouse who recently whined that judging Democrats by whether they captured the 24 seats needed to control the House of Representatives (less than historical average of 26) was setting an unfairly high bar?



Even the white walkers' Night King would get exhausted, reviving the same corpse so many times.

I won't be volunteering to thoroughly re-debunk the uselessness of Clapper's "historical average of 26" on a biweekly basis between now and Halloween 2018. Short version: Clap's historical average of 26 is made of House swings that are either waves or ripples, most of which aren't within spitting distance of this 26-seat, run-of-the-mill expectation level.

These are the last fifteen House seat swings towards the party not in the White House: minus-6, 13, minus-8, 63, 21, 31, minus-3, minus-8, minus-2, minus-5, minus-3, 54, minus-9, 7, 2, and 5.

Or, midterms only: 13, 63, 31, minus-8, minus-5, 54, 7, and 5. Not a lot of regulars leaning on that alleged 26-seat "bar."

The magic number 26 is all about mirroring the GOP's current 26-seat majority, with Clapper hoping he'll have the chance to spin a (for example) 15-seat Democratic pickup as their crushing, demoralizing defeat. Nothing more.
   154. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:29 PM (#5518806)
Do you have to make such an obviously poor argument?


New here?
   155. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:30 PM (#5518807)
Ray, #142:
“My original instinct was to pull out

Signed,
Fred Trump.



And you anti-Dilberts think that Ray has no sense of humor.
   156. PreservedFish Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:30 PM (#5518808)
New here?

Sort of, yes.
   157. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:33 PM (#5518810)
I won't be volunteering to thoroughly re-debunk the uselessness of Clapper's "historical average of 26" on a biweekly basis between now and Halloween 2018. Short version: Clap's historical average of 26 is made of House swings that are either waves or ripples, most of which aren't within spitting distance of this 26-seat, run-of-the-mill expectation level.


Doesn't matter, he will think it was me that did it, like he did above.

I don't bother trying to refute his nonsense on this (you do such a great job of it), as for me, I have my hope chest filled with other dreams. In 2020 I might be upset if we don't take the House, Senate and Presidency (well, upset is too strong, but I have hopes). Between now and then though, my beady little rodent eyes are focused first on state and below elections where I hope Democrats can make YUGE! gains, with my secondary attention on the House (go team!) and Senate (limit losses in 2018! What an inspiring slogan).
   158. The Good Face Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:34 PM (#5518811)
It is not at all fair, for obvious reasons.


Stalinists/Maoists don't magically become something else because they don't call themselves such. Why do you keep defending those thugs? I don't have any problem condemning the neo-Nazis, but you guys won't say a bad word against thugs who attack peaceful protesters, cops, and random people whose looks they don't like.
   159. Mans Best Friend Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:37 PM (#5518812)
I'll be consistent, however: if antifa show up in Mao suits with little red books, then yes, I'll pin the bodycounts on them.


All My Heroes Kill Cops
   160. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:39 PM (#5518814)
But now I am worried – you can post a lot more than 140 characters on Instagram. What if Trump finds out about it?
I don't understand your concern. 140 characters is the limit of his attention span.
   161. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:39 PM (#5518815)
with Clapper hoping he'll have the chance to spin a (for example) 15-seat Democratic pickup as their crushing, demoralizing defeat. Nothing more.


To what end? What purpose does having a discussion over whether some party or candidate under or over met expectations? If the Dems pick up 15 seats, is there any tangible difference in how congress governs if the expectation was 25 or 5? At the end of the day, you got 15 seats, and nothing else matters going forward. I understand why pundits and consultants want to make such arguments, because it's their livilhood and they want their employers to think they did a good or better job than the opposition. . But why do regular people give 2 shits?
   162. PreservedFish Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:39 PM (#5518816)
Stalinists/Maoists don't magically become something else because they don't call themselves such.


You'll have to prove that they are in fact Stalinists / Maoists. Just being aggressive leftists doesn't cut it. Some antifa memes approvingly referencing the Cultural Revolution or Stalinist purges or similar might even suffice.

Why do you keep defending those thugs? I don't have any problem condemning the neo-Nazis, but you guys say a bad word against thugs who attack peaceful protesters, cops, and random people whose looks they don't like.


I agree, they seem like thugs. I don't give a #### about them. I argue against the endless equivocation, putting them on the same level as the neo-Nazis. They're not on the same level. They're better.
   163. Omineca Greg Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:40 PM (#5518817)
I'm not sure there are any Stalinists around these days*

A week ago I would have agreed with you, but then I met one. He's a self-identified Tankie.

I was honestly blown away that people like that existed.

I think "Tankie" is meant to be an insult, but they're reclaiming it or something like that.
   164. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:40 PM (#5518818)
And you anti-Dilberts think that Ray has no sense of humor.


Hey, I noted it last week.
   165. DavidFoss Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:40 PM (#5518820)
you guys won't say a bad word against thugs who attack peaceful protesters, cops, and random people whose looks they don't like.


I'm against thugs who attack peaceful protestors, cops and random people whose looks they don't like.

Hyper-partisan Adam Schiff is against it too.

   166. BDC Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:45 PM (#5518823)
I've quite enjoyed my trips to Alabama

The Southern Road Trip has been a staple of my life for the past 20 years; I don't know how many times I've done it. Alabama might just be the luck of the draw in terms of where I've stopped and stayed, but it's never a place I want to stop for long. I am usually hurrying on to Mississippi or Georgia.

OTOH I probably haven't sampled the good places. I went to an academic conference in Montevallo in 1998 which was very nice, no issues with that – though a bit of a bubble like all college towns. My car broke down in Spanish Fort once, so that isn't a great memory. I've only been to generic lunch places in Birmingham. Have only driven past Montgomery.

I was in Livingston or York, somewhere off the interstate, in 1996, a town that at the time seemed to have a black end and a white end of the main street – naturally we inadvertently stopped on the black end and everyone was nice as heck, commenting on our Texas plates and being very solicitous, but it was a weird throwback experience.

By contrast places I've been through more recently – Tuskegee, Selma, Demopolis – were not overtly segregated anymore*, but were relatively poor and depressing-looking.

The only academics I've known from Auburn were trying to get out ASAP. I haven't known many from UA – I knew one of their presidents, but it was his last stop before retirement, he wasn't really from there.

My view may be skewed by there being few Civil War battlefields in Alabama, so there is not the inherent interest that most other Southern states hold for me. The Lowndes NPS site between Montgomery and Selma is worth a visit (particularly if you think that racism disappeared like magic in 1964), but again, depressing.

*EDIT to clarify: in terms of shopping and dining ... I have no idea about residentially, where there is still a big divide in lots of places.

And that's my SSS view of Alabama.
   167. Mans Best Friend Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:45 PM (#5518824)

The Village Voice used to be a thick, heavy read.

Not particularly, but it did employ journalists and other writers who were well-read.

Same with most papers.
   168. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:46 PM (#5518825)
Space Mouse, #157:
In 2020 I might be upset if we don't take the House, Senate and Presidency (well, upset is too strong, but I have hopes).


In order of probability: House, Presidency..... Senate.

The Democrats are going to lose ground in the Senate next year, not narrow the gap. In 2020 they should make that back. 2022, when there'll be 22 Republican seats and 12 Democratic seats in play (and something like 8 to 3 in competitive ones) is the more plausible target date for the Dems to send Senator Kid Rock into the minority.
   169. zenbitz Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:46 PM (#5518826)
I think even my Stalin supporting relatives are dead and/or repentant. I bet it's not too hard to find folks who think Mao "did what he had to do".
   170. Rockwell Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:57 PM (#5518829)
Why do you keep defending those thugs? I don't have any problem condemning the neo-Nazis, but you guys won't say a bad word against thugs who attack peaceful protesters, cops, and random people whose looks they don't like.


They're kinda fond of their cuddly little armed street wing, aren't they?

Antifa? What Antifa? Never heard of them!!!

   171. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 06:02 PM (#5518831)
you guys won't say a bad word against thugs who attack peaceful protesters, cops, and random people whose looks they don't like.

I'm against thugs who attack peaceful protestors, cops and random people whose looks they don't like.


You're using the same tone, jaw movements as Trump was. So I don't believe you're being sincere.

Hyper-partisan Adam Schiff is against it too.

Schiff on Antifa: 'No justification' for violence


See what I mean? This is essentially what Trump said. People have criticized Trump, and when you get down to brass tacks you find that they end up saying the same thing that Trump said.
   172. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 06:07 PM (#5518834)
Hyper-partisan Adam Schiff is against it too.

Schiff on Antifa: 'No justification' for violence


See what I mean? This is essentially what Trump said. People have criticized Trump, and when you get down to brass tacks you find that they end up saying the same thing that Trump said.


Did Schiff then say there were many fine people among the violent protesters? No? Then it isn't essentially what Trump said.
   173. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 22, 2017 at 06:07 PM (#5518835)
Misirlou, #161:
with Clapper hoping he'll have the chance to spin a (for example) 15-seat Democratic pickup as their crushing, demoralizing defeat. Nothing more.

To what end? What purpose does having a discussion over whether some party or candidate under or over met expectations? If the Dems pick up 15 seats, is there any tangible difference in how congress governs if the expectation was 25 or 5? At the end of the day, you got 15 seats, and nothing else matters going forward. I understand why pundits and consultants want to make such arguments, because it's their livelihood and they want their employers to think they did a good or better job than the opposition. . But why do regular people give 2 shits?



What you say is correct about the spin, spin, spin. But governance is different. Paul Ryan & Co. did some excruciating tooth-pulling to see one ACA repeal bill fail, and then yet more dentistry to squeak the next one through. That was WITH his 24-seat margin, in a divided party. So any citizen taking a rooting interest in Paul Ryan's future success would have real reason to fret about House Republicans losing more of their margin, which has already proved inadequate to their needs more than once.



Cletus, #167:
The Village Voice used to be a thick, heavy read.

Not particularly, but it did employ journalists and other writers who were well-read.



Yes, particularly. A weekly copy of the Voice was over 200 pages, and frequently well over. Though they've cost-cut everyone who once had a faithful readership, which made the paper more and more ignorable, the main difference isn't staff-related. It's the loss of advertising for independent, arty movie theaters, classifieds, sex services, music clubs, etc. Those theaters are mostly gone and the rest has migrated onto the internet. The trees are happy, though.

It's not just a Village Voice thing, obviously. How many copies of next Sunday's New York Times would you need to stack, to match the bulk of one 1975 edition of the Sunday New York Times?
   174. PreservedFish Posted: August 22, 2017 at 06:09 PM (#5518837)
You're using the same tone, jaw movements as Trump was.


Dear god, please stop using this. Pretty sure that zero liberals on this board ever referred to his jaw movements.
   175. Nose army. Beef diaper? (CoB) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 06:11 PM (#5518838)
Well, scratch this one off my checklist ... probably.


President Donald Trump will not pardon controversial former Sheriff Joe Arpaio at a campaign rally in Phoenix Tuesday night, the White House has announced.

Trump floated the potential pardon in a recent interview with Fox News, saying he was "seriously thinking" about such a move.

“There will be no discussion of that today at any point, and no action will be taken on that front at any point today," press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders told reporters during the flight to Arizona.


Politico
   176. JJ1986 Posted: August 22, 2017 at 06:25 PM (#5518843)
How does a lawyer think that reading a person's body language is both insane and impossible?
   177. DavidFoss Posted: August 22, 2017 at 06:30 PM (#5518845)
Did Schiff then say there were many fine people among the violent protesters?


There were 'many fine people' were there among the 40k in Boston. That's why people on the left are hesitating. There have been a lot of protests in the past year and he doesn't want to say that they're all antifa (because they aren't).

But this report of "anti-Trump riots" planned for November 4th. If true, I would not support that. I would hope that Adam Schiff, Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren and Nancy Pelosi would condemn such a thing. But it hasn't happened yet. And the whole story seems like a lame attempt to 'project' after Charlottesville.
   178. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 22, 2017 at 06:34 PM (#5518846)
The magic number 26 is all about mirroring the GOP's current 26-seat majority, with Clapper hoping he'll have the chance to spin a (for example) 15-seat Democratic pickup as their crushing, demoralizing defeat. Nothing more.

It's hilarious that the same people who claim Trump is historically unpopular and has throughly tainted the GOP brand, think it's unfair to measure the 2018 election by those standards. Opposition parties running against truly unpopular Presidents pick up more than 15 House seats. If that's all the Dems do, they will have underperformed. Doesn't mean they are doomed forever, but it certainly would be a missed opportunity. Surprised that folks are so obviously trying to have it both ways.
   179. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 22, 2017 at 06:39 PM (#5518848)
JJ1986, #176:
How does a lawyer think that reading a person's body language is both insane and impossible?


All of this jawboning reminds us that there is one group of working Americans for whom Donald Trump has been the very worst jobs President ever: the "body language experts" that used to have regular gigs on Fox News to analyze Barack Obama.
   180. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 06:40 PM (#5518849)
How does a lawyer think that reading a person's body language is both insane and impossible?


This is a silly rebuttal when David uses it and it remains silly now. We may evaluate people based on body language. There's a limit however to its usefulness. We're just guessing. And at best it moves the needle a little. No fair minded person concludes that someone is a freaking Nazi sympathizer based on it. Nor does any sane person think that interpreting body language leads to certain conclusions, as are being applied by everyone to Trump. Bill O'Reilly used to do regular segments with a "body language expert." He would get her on there and she would analyze some interview as to tone, jaw movements and tell you what the subject REALLY believed despite what the subject was saying. It was mildly entertaining, if you didn't take it too seriously. If you did then to listen to her she could be 100% certain about someone's inner thoughts based on it, which is ludicrous.

And to listen to people here, Trump can safely be categorized as a Nazi sympathizer on the basis of it, and on him -- noted wordsmith that his accusers suddenly believe he is -- phrasing his contemporaneous statements awkwardly.

Then we get stuff like "David Duke thanked Trump for what he said!! See!! That proves Trump is dog whistling to racists!!" When actually all it proves is that whoever says this and David Duke think alike. Both of them can hear the dog whistle that only racists are supposed to be able to hear. That should.... give one pause. If you heard the racist dog whistle that you said only racists can hear, you are either a racist yourself or your train of logic is a complete mess.

   181. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 06:44 PM (#5518850)
Addendum: This is literally the first dog whistle that I've ever seen David hear, in 25 years of internet argument. Witness his epic battle with Andy over the alleged dog whistling in things like Reagan's "state's rights" speech. David never for a second subscribed to Andy's belief that there was a dog whistle. Yet, suddenly, David hears a dog whistle now. The exercise is left for the reader as to why.
   182. DavidFoss Posted: August 22, 2017 at 06:47 PM (#5518851)
Both of them can hear the dog whistle that only racists are supposed to be able to hear.


Trump did start his political career peddling the birther conspiracy. He might not be a racist, but he's willing to play that card.

I don't understand the fixation on the jaw-clenching for that specific case. The statements you're referring to were walked back.
   183. PreservedFish Posted: August 22, 2017 at 06:47 PM (#5518852)
The exercise is left for the reader


You stole SBB's thing.
   184. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: August 22, 2017 at 06:54 PM (#5518856)
You're using the same tone, jaw movements as Trump was. So I don't believe you're being sincere.

Remember, even though he walked back those statements the next day, and admitted he was not sincere, it's the people who thought he was not sincere, who are delusional. Not the ones who will defend anything he says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff.
   185. Morty Causa Posted: August 22, 2017 at 06:54 PM (#5518857)
They're kinda fond of their cuddly little armed street wing, aren't they?

Antifa? What Antifa? Never heard of them!!!


You're old enough: doesn't it remind you how the hippie movement turned really righteous when liberals got what they had been clamoring for decades, which we were led to believe was mere equality in law. Then when they got that, they turned violent, blowing up things and pouring out violent rhetoric and demanding end results NOW! Liberals became New Left, intolerant and phony revolutionary.
   186. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:00 PM (#5518858)
Remember, even though he walked back those statements the next day, and admitted he was not sincere,


He walked back his condemnation of Nazis and white supremacists? No, he did not.

What "admission that he was not sincere"?
   187. Rockwell Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:01 PM (#5518859)
He walked back his condemnation of Nazis and white supremacists? No, he did not.


He actually doubled and tripled down on it.

But forget it, Ray -- it's Chinatown.
   188. Srul Itza Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:05 PM (#5518860)
My original instinct was to pull out


If only that had been his father's instinct.
   189. Srul Itza Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:07 PM (#5518861)
How dumb and gullible are Breitbart readers?


Some things remain beyond our ability to accurately calculate or measure.
   190. Mans Best Friend Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:07 PM (#5518862)
A weekly copy of the Voice was over 200 pages, and frequently well over.

When? By the '90's, when I regularly purchased it, you're talking half that, unless it contained a supplement.

Sunday NYT is still pretty damned thick.

Newspapers are so quaint.
   191. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:10 PM (#5518864)
He actually doubled and tripled down on it.

But forget it, Ray -- it's Chinatown.


No, now I'm actually curious as to what in the world people think they heard in Trump's press conference the next day.

Post 182 says "I don't understand the fixation on the jaw-clenching for that specific case. The statements you're referring to were walked back."

Post 185 says: "Remember, even though he walked back those statements the next day, and admitted he was not sincere, it's the people who thought he was not sincere, who are delusional. Not the ones who will defend anything he says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff."

Ok, let's see who the delusional ones are. I challenge anyone to post Trump's statements from the press conference -- or from anywhere else -- where he walked back his written statement from the day before.
   192. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:10 PM (#5518865)
But forget it, Ray -- it's Chinatown.


It's truly baffling how you and Ray are the only people in the world who knew what Trump really meant, and the other 99.9999999999999% of people in the world are deranged.
   193. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:12 PM (#5518866)
It's truly baffling how you and Ray are the only people in the world who knew what Trump really meant, and the other 99.9999999999999% of people in the world are deranged.


Fake statistics pulled out of your ass are fake statistics pulled out of your ass.

Post his comments from the day after where he walked back his written statement from the day before and admitted he wasn't sincere.
   194. Mans Best Friend Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:13 PM (#5518867)
Maybe it was more pages. Been over 20 years since I bought a copy.

Maybe it would have died with the Hentoffs and Cockburns etc, anyway, but successive ownerships stripped the Voice bare of resources and substance.
   195. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:13 PM (#5518868)
there are a lot of people in Alabama who would rather vote for gef's one-eyed alley cat than the guy who has been removed from office not once, but twice due to not believing in the whole render unto Caesar thing.


As soon as I get home in a few minutes I'll consult with her about a possible candidacy.
   196. Rockwell Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:14 PM (#5518869)
It's truly baffling how you and Ray are the only people in the world who knew what Trump really meant, and the other 99.9999999999999% of people in the world are deranged.


Actually, it isn't baffling at all and I (Ray can speak for himself) aren't talking about what Trump "really meant." It's the hysterics -- the people obsessed with imaginary jaw movements (*) -- doing that. We're talking about what he actually said.

(*) It's quite ... funny ... to see the NYT go all on about Trump's use of a telepromper when that was one of the bizarre memes rightists used against Obama.
   197. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:14 PM (#5518870)
Another deranged one joins the ranks. Paul Ryan:

"We all need to make clear there is no moral relativism when it comes to neo-Nazis. We cannot allow the slightest ambiguity on such a fundamental question," Ryan wrote on Facebook.

"The immediate condemnations from left, right and center affirmed that there is no confusion about right and wrong here. There are no sides. There is no other argument. We will not tolerate this hateful ideology in our society."


   198. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:18 PM (#5518872)
Fake statistics pulled out of your ass are fake statistics pulled out of your ass.

Post his comments from the day after where he walked back his written statement from the day before and admitted he wasn't sincere.


Find someone who publically stated that Trump's comments on Saturday and Tuesday were acceptable. I doubt you can, other than people who are paid to defend Trump. But I can find dozens of just Republicans who slammed him for it. Fox News slammed him for it for crissakes.
   199. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:19 PM (#5518874)
A week ago I would have agreed with you, but then I met one. He's a self-identified Tankie

I was honestly blown away that people like that existed.

I think "Tankie" is meant to be an insult, but they're reclaiming it or something like that.


Damn, man. I was scrolling down just to relate my discovery, by hanging around various anarcho-oriented sites, of that very term & concept just a few months ago.

(And yes, it's generally meant as a pejorative.)
   200. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:19 PM (#5518875)
"Walked his statements back" and "admitted he wasn't sincere" are beyond body language anyway. They are specific summations of his actual words. So quote his actual words. Quote where you think he walked his statements back or admitted he wasn't sincere.

Don't have an explicit walk-back or admission of insincerity? I'll accept implicit (even though "walking back" and "admission of insincerity" really only make sense as explicit direct words). Give me something from his words.
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