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Tuesday, August 22, 2017

OTP 22 August 2017: The myth of baseball’s depoliticalization

The cornerstone of a democratic republic is civic engagement in service of civic virtue, to be aware of fellow citizens’ struggles and to doggedly fight injustice and oppression. In today’s America, much of this engagement is missing, and it is viewed less as a responsibility held by every citizen than the task of few professional groups. But when it comes to Nazism, it should be the duty of every person, doubly so for white people, to vociferously denounce the individuals and the ideals themselves, to stamp them down in every area of society. The silence of white MLB players is thus telling of the way baseball players in the past have interacted with politics and its relationship to the larger degradation of American democracy.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:43 AM | 1771 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   601. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:07 PM (#5519684)
I have no problem with him stepping down in late January next year.
How convenient, Mouse!
   602. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:08 PM (#5519686)
So if any of you are summarily fired wihout cause tomorrow, you're okay with that?


I am a consultant. They can let me go whenever they want for less than no reason and it costs them nothing. Trust me, I am very well aware of that fact.
   603. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:09 PM (#5519687)
How convenient, Mouse!


Never let it be said I am not reasonable. :)
   604. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:10 PM (#5519688)
You just said the left was racking up successes. What good are the GOP's "successes" if they can't prevent the left from racking up success after success?
Apples and bowling balls.
   605. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:10 PM (#5519690)
That and there is a world of difference between making a declarative statement "This person is a fine person", and making a non-declarative statement "We can't be sure this person is a Nazi, therefore, we won't label him as one without further proof." If Trump had said the latter, something like "I looked at the images we all saw, and I am not comfortable calling every protester in them a Nazi or White supremecist", that would have been OK, if a little tone deaf, but probably above average for him. There would be no, or far less outcry. But what he did was look at the images, the ones which SBB claims are inconclusive, and made a declarative statement that these were fine people.


It's an interesting question. HAS the media fact-checked Trump's statement that there were mere statue-protectors there? It seems to be the first statement of his they haven't fact checked with one of those Pinnocchio type analyses.
   606. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:11 PM (#5519691)
I am smart enough, however, to know that the images didn't cover every single person there. You're acting as if there's some accessible guest list of everyone Trump could be talking about, and that's ridiculous.

We don't even know the universe of people who were in C'Ville that weekend.


Nobody believes this gibberish addresses the issue. Not even Trump. Hell, probably not even you.
   607. The Good Face Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:11 PM (#5519692)
Well if you want to know the main current reason for the left's recent successes, well you might want to look at the GOP leadership. There seems to have been a narcissistic sucking void on top, which is really hurting the entire GOP and their push to get things done.


As usual, causality is beyond BM's capacity. The narcissistic sucking void is there BECAUSE the GOP wouldn't/couldn't do anything to stop the left.
   608. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:14 PM (#5519697)
It's an interesting question. HAS the media fact-checked Trump's statement that there were mere statue-protectors there? It seems to be the first statement of his they haven't fact checked with one of those Pinnocchio type analyses.


How do you prove a negative? You can infer proof, as I contend, in that no right wing media source has defended Trump with proof of peaceful non-Nazi protesters. But the media can't definitively prove he's wrong. At best they can say, and they have, multiple times, that there's no proof he's right. But no proof he's right does not equal proof he's wrong.

edit: Not to mention, what defines a fine person is subjective, it varies from person to person. So Trump's contention that there were many very fine people on both sides is an un-falsifiable statement on many levels, many levels.
   609. The Good Face Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:18 PM (#5519699)
You just said the left was racking up successes. What good are the GOP's "successes" if they can't prevent the left from racking up success after success?

Apples and bowling balls.


Stop dodging, it's a simple question; what good are your "successes" if they can't prevent your enemies from winning, repeatedly?
   610. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:19 PM (#5519700)
It is called common sense in both cases. I don't see it as a left/right thing.

If you write a memo calling your coworkers genetically inferior, which of them is going to want to work with you anymore?


The key word there being "if." This is purely a hypothetical you've handed us. It's not what happened at Google.
   611. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:21 PM (#5519703)
Please. (1) It was the McCain/Palin ticket, not democrats, that made him a celebrity, and (2) he reveled in it.

Please yourself. The doxxing had started before McCain recruited him.
I lived in Ohio, in the Toledo media market, at the time. It was the right wing media - Limbaugh et al - who were all over the story.

And McCain was the one who brought him up at the debate 3 days after his encounter with Obama.
   612. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:22 PM (#5519704)
As usual, causality is beyond BM's capacity. The narcissistic sucking void is there BECAUSE the GOP wouldn't/couldn't do anything to stop the left.


Way to miss the point silly child. You asked, why the left is succeeding right now? For example saving ACA despite a GOP House, Senate, and Presidency that has few limits (other than self imposed) on their power. Other examples include the various elections post-President Trump, where Democrats are doing very very well.

So even if you are correct as to why Trump got elected, the fact is he did. And in order to be successful at enacting change, especially through legislation, Presidential leadership is necessary. We are seeing what happens without such leadership. I warned you last summer and fall, but you were convinced all it would take would be Trump to get elected and everything you ever desired would happen. It is not my fault it is all turning to crap before your very eyes. Blame your guy, who you support, who is fumbling away a generational opportunity.
   613. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:22 PM (#5519705)
#587:
How interesting that, unlike with Alaska Republican Ted Stevens in 2008, there's been comparatively little talk in the media about whether Senate Democrats should force Menendez to step down.


I also think that the Menendez coverage has been lighter than it could and should be, even if we've all heard about it. At least it'll ramp up now that his trial is starting.

But Ted Stevens was a four-decade Senator who was indicted past the middle of a campaign, just 3+ months before Election Day. Also, he had recently been in the public eye for his boisterous support of the so-called "Bridge to Nowhere," and his clueless pronouncements about the internet running through tubes. Robert Menendez hasn't got nearly that much of a concentrated public profile. And for any increased level of media talk about it then, Senator Stevens did not have to step down.

It's always been the case that 90% of the attention goes to 10% of the Congressmen. Hypothetical with a non-hypothetical answer: If Senators Al Franken and Ron Wyden were named co-conspirators in a criminal indictment this afternoon, who do you think would get the media focus?
   614. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:25 PM (#5519707)
It's always been the case that 90% of the attention goes to 10% of the Congressmen. Hypothetical with a non-hypothetical answer: If Senators Al Franken and Ron Wyden were named co-conspirators in a criminal indictment this afternoon, who do you think would get the media focus?


So you are saying Minnesota wouldn't be fly over country then? Awesome! :)
   615. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:27 PM (#5519710)
So if any of you are summarily fired wihout cause tomorrow, you're okay with that?
I assume this is OJ in yet another incarnation. I wouldn't be happy about it, but of course my employer has the right to terminate our agreement just as I have a right to do so by quitting without cause.
   616. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:27 PM (#5519711)
Totally believable, from Senator Turtle.

The President and I, and our teams, have been and continue to be in regular contact about our shared goals. We are working together to develop tax reform and infrastructure legislation so we can grow the economy and create jobs; to prevent a government default; to fund the government so we can advance our priorities in the short and long terms; to pass the defense authorization and defense appropriations bills so we can support out troops and help implement an effective strategy against ISIL; to provide relief from Obamacare; and to continue our progress for our nation's veterans.

"We have a lot of work ahead of us, and we are committed to advancing out shared agenda together and anyone who suggest otherwise is clearly not part of the conversation."


I am completely convinced that those two are like total besties and the rumors of their feud are completely made up!

EDIT: Funny though, that the Senate Majority Leader didn't bother to mention the Border Wall. Hmmmm.
   617. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:29 PM (#5519712)
So if any of you are summarily fired wihout cause tomorrow, you're okay with that?


Without cause? Heaven forbid!

But with cause - like, say, have a non-Republican bumper sticker on your car? Well you should have kept your opinions to yourself, hippie.
   618. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:30 PM (#5519713)
Stop dodging, it's a simple question; what good are your "successes" if they can't prevent your enemies from winning, repeatedly?


By the way, what "winning" (that is totally and completely NOT GOP President Trump's fault) are you talking about? Just so we are clear.
   619. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:34 PM (#5519717)
Please yourself. The doxxing had started before McCain recruited him.

I lived in Ohio, in the Toledo media market, at the time. It was the right wing media - Limbaugh et al - who were all over the story. And McCain was the one who brought him up at the debate 3 days after his encounter with Obama.

And how the hell would publicly supporting John McCain justify the Democrats rummaging around in Joe The Pllumber's child support payment records?
   620. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:37 PM (#5519719)
Stop dodging, it's a simple question; what good are your "successes" if they can't prevent your enemies from winning, repeatedly?
Dude, it's a bullshit question. Winning Senate, House, state, and local elections are way different from triumphing in a single battle in the culture war.
   621. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:39 PM (#5519722)
I lived in Ohio, in the Toledo media market, at the time. It was the right wing media - Limbaugh et al - who were all over the story.

And McCain was the one who brought him up at the debate 3 days after his encounter with Obama.
I never denied that the Limbaugh types were über-impressed with the guy but the left was hard at work trying to nail his ass mere moments after he asked Obama the tough but fair questions.
   622. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:45 PM (#5519725)
How interesting that, unlike with Alaska Republican Ted Stevens in 2008, there's been comparatively little talk in the media about whether Senate Democrats should force Menendez to step down.

There've been news articles that mentioned this, but as long as there's a Republican governor who as sure as you're born would name a Republican Senator to replace him, it's a complete non-starter. I haven't even seen any reliably Republican columnists try to make an issue of it, so maybe you should put in a call to some of your friends.
   623. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:46 PM (#5519726)
And how the hell would publicly supporting John McCain justify the Democrats rummaging around in Joe The Pllumber's child support payment records?


Hold my plunger.

The most buzzworthy story on the right side of the blogosphere this weekend concerned young Graeme Frost, the 12-year-old child severely injured in a terrible car accident that also left his sister with permanent disabilities. Graeme Frost was propped up by Democrats desperate to avert the president’s veto of S-CHIP legislation, which would have massively expanded the government health care entitlement...

In a Baltimore Sun article the family claims to be raising their four children on combined income of about $45,000 a year. “Bonnie Frost works for a medical publishing firm; her husband, Halsey, is a woodworker. They are raising their four children on combined income of about $45,000 a year. Neither gets health insurance through work.”

What the article does not mention is that Halsey Frost has owned his own company “Frostworks”,since this marriage announcement in the NY Times in 1992 so he chooses to not give himself insurance. He also employed his wife as “bookkeeper and operations management” prior to her recent 2007 hire at the “medical publishing firm”. As her employer, he apparently denied her health insurance as well.

His company, Frostworks, is located at 3701 E BALTIMORE ST. A building that was purchased for $160,000 in 1999…
…One has to wonder that if time and money can be found to remodel a home, send kids to exclusive private schools, purchase commercial property and run your own business… maybe money can be found for other things…maybe Dad should drop his woodworking hobby and get a real job that offers health insurance rather than making people like me (also with 4 kids in a 600sf smaller house and tuition $16,000 less per kid and no commercial property ownership) pay for it in my taxes.
   624. DavidFoss Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:47 PM (#5519727)
the left was hard at work trying to nail his ass mere moments after he asked Obama the tough but fair questions.


Really? I thought it was just a Ken Bone thing. Random guy turns into a meme, press swoops in to satisfy public's insatiable curiosity and ends up finding some dirty laundry.

The whole point of Joe the Plumber was that there wasn't supposed to be anything specific about him. He was the average Joe with average American kitchen table issues.
   625. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:49 PM (#5519728)
I never denied that the Limbaugh types were über-impressed with the guy but the left was hard at work trying to nail his ass mere moments after he asked Obama the tough but fair questions.

There's always something to be said for politicians to do their own vetting before latching on to a questionable character. And Joe the Plumber was such an obvious Advertisement For Himself that I couldn't feel much sympathy for him when his dirty laundry came out.
   626. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:52 PM (#5519729)
Such experiences seem to reveal the best of ourselves and the best of our hopes for the world. Visions of the afterlife are really visions of idealized life. Near-death experiences bring us outside ourselves to a more impersonal perspective while simultaneously accentuating our bonds to others. They reveal us to be part of an enchanted but beautiful and tactile world. They make us feel both the integrity of ourselves and our profound interconnectedness. They are moral revelations whose importance need not be rooted in the supernaturalism that so many want to enlist them to demonstrate. Fischer and Mitchell-Yellin might well object to my putting the matter this way, but what seems to operate in the background of this urge for supernatural explanation is an inversion of David Hume’s dictum that one cannot infer an “ought” from an “is.” Those wanting to bolster supernaturalism by appeal to near-death experiences wrongly infer a metaphysical story (the “is”) from the ethical insights (the “ought”) that such experiences afford us. Fischer and Mitchell-Yellin clearly show that this inference is both unwarranted and unnecessary.


But is it? Without putting the experience into a common, mythical, communicable structure, it loses meaning. If reality is just random matter suspended in the dark, our human bonds are mere bondage to another illusion.

I'm not saying you have to believe in either supernaturalism or personal survival of death for life to be meaningful, but rather strict materialist explanations are unnecessarily limiting, too.

Ultimately, we don't know what lies beyond our conceptual/perceptual limits. Why not open to the fact reality is more than we can ever know?
   627. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:54 PM (#5519730)
Death is the ultimate limit, and focuses the mind unlike any sublime moments of living.
   628. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:55 PM (#5519731)
But is it? Without putting the experience into a common, mythical, communicable structure, it loses meaning. If reality is just random matter suspended in the dark, our human bonds are mere bondage to another illusion.


*passes bong*
   629. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 23, 2017 at 05:56 PM (#5519732)
I am a consultant. They can let me go whenever they want for less than no reason and it costs them nothing. Trust me, I am very well aware of that fact.

But you undoubtedly have options lined up and won't be living out of your car next month.
   630. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 06:01 PM (#5519733)
How do you prove a negative? You can infer proof, as I contend, in that no right wing media source has defended Trump with proof of peaceful non-Nazi protesters. But the media can't definitively prove he's wrong. At best they can say, and they have, multiple times, that there's no proof he's right. But no proof he's right does not equal proof he's wrong.


If you saw a bunch of normally dressed people just sort of milling about amongst the Nazis but not marching, not chanting, would you be able to tell whether they were Nazis or just statue protectors? The fact that they were there would suggest Nazi; the fact that they were dressed normally and not marching or chanting would suggest statue protector.

I don't know. I don't know how to cut through it which is why I haven't tried.

But I don't know how you would know either.

It's true that anyone who showed up innocently and didn't leave when they found out Nazis were there is not a very fine person, but the narrow issue under discussion is whether we can tell simply by looking at photos or videos if people dressed normally were Nazis or statue protectors.
   631. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 23, 2017 at 06:03 PM (#5519734)
my employer has the right to terminate our agreement just as I have a right to do so by quitting without cause.

In every place I've worked, no employee has been irreplaceable, and at small cost. The vast majority do not have the resources to come out of a summary execution nearly as well.

I'm not arguing for limitless job security, just not buying the easy come easy go attitude promoted by the corporation.
   632. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 06:07 PM (#5519735)
Remember what I said about the benefits of building a political party on a foundation of snake-handling Creationist Stupids?

Hate Trump, hate Jesus!

Right-wing prepper pastor Jim Bakker interviewed televangelist Paula White, who is one of President Trump’s key spiritual advisers, on his television program today, where she declared that opposition to the president is opposition to God and explicitly praised Trump for not sounding or acting presidential.

“Thank goodness,” she said. “In other words, he’s not a polished politician. In other words, he’s authentically—whether people like him or not, he’s been raised up by God because God says that He raises up and places all people in places of authority. It is God that raises up a king, it is God that sets one down and so when you fight against the plan of God, you’re fighting against the hand of God.”

Later in the broadcast, when White declared that Christians “were sent here to take over,” Bakker excitedly agreed, asserting “that’s why we have the president we have!”


It's gonna get worse when they legalize political activities by tax-exempt churches. Religious leaders are the original carneys, after all. The apostles were all marks.
   633. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 23, 2017 at 06:10 PM (#5519737)
Well you should have kept your opinions to yourself, hippie.

Considering how many post from work, probably good advice.
   634. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 23, 2017 at 06:13 PM (#5519738)
The apostles were all marks.

Perhaps when Jesus promised them eternal life, he meant people will remember you millennia from now.
   635. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 23, 2017 at 06:18 PM (#5519742)
   636. PepTech Posted: August 23, 2017 at 06:34 PM (#5519745)
It's true that anyone who showed up innocently and didn't leave when they found out Nazis were there is not a very fine person, but the narrow issue under discussion is whether we can tell simply by looking at photos or videos if people dressed normally were Nazis or statue protectors.
No, that's the narrow issue *you're* trying to turn it into.

The actual issue is that Trump misspoke in the way he added "many sides" to his original statement. It's entirely possible he meant to decry hatred and bigotry on the one side, and violence on both - but that's not what he said, except by an... unusual interpretation of English construction.

Then, given a chance to clarify exactly what he meant, he doubled down on the side of making it worse by adding the "fine person" justification/rationalization. So now there's an attempt to make THAT the "narrow issue" rather than just admit that Trump stepped in it originally.
   637. PepTech Posted: August 23, 2017 at 06:37 PM (#5519748)
The apostles were all marks.
No, there were multiple Jameses, but there wasn't even one Mark... He wrote a gospel but wasn't an actual Apostle (ducks)
   638. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 23, 2017 at 06:40 PM (#5519751)
   639. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 06:51 PM (#5519756)
The actual issue is that Trump misspoke in the way he added "many sides" to his original statement. It's entirely possible he meant to decry hatred and bigotry on the one side, and violence on both - but that's not what he said, except by an... unusual interpretation of English construction.

Then, given a chance to clarify exactly what he meant, he


...showed in his Q&A press conference that that is exactly what he meant.

In his Q&A he (a) reiterated his condemnation for the views of Nazis, (b) reiterated his condemnation for the violence of Nazis, and (c) reiterated his condemnation for the violence of the left. With respect to the Charlottseville incident he did not condemn the views of the left and has never done so. He did condemn the views of the Nazis. He did condemn the violence of Nazis and of the left.

doubled down on the side of making it worse by adding the "fine person" justification/rationalization. So now there's an attempt to make THAT the "narrow issue" rather than just admit that Trump stepped in it originally.


The very fine people thing was his one mistake. But it doesn't mean he's a Nazi supporter; it means that he thought there were mere statue protectors there. Do you know how it's reasonable to conclude that he thought there were mere statue protectors there? Because that's what he said.
   640. madvillain Posted: August 23, 2017 at 07:02 PM (#5519760)
*passes bong*


Illusions Michael! Tricks are something whores do for money... ... ... or [sees children nearby] ... candy!
   641. PepTech Posted: August 23, 2017 at 07:11 PM (#5519763)
...showed in his Q&A press conference that that is exactly what he meant.

In his Q&A he (a) reiterated his condemnation for the views of Nazis, (b) reiterated his condemnation for the violence of Nazis, and (c) reiterated his condemnation for the violence of the left. With respect to the Charlottseville incident he did not condemn the views of the left and has never done so. He did condemn the views of the Nazis. He did condemn the violence of Nazis and of the left.
...and did so in such a clever way that David Duke immediately thanked him, signalling to the white supremacy crowd that it's AOK to keep up the good work.

Part of being a leader is knowing the proper time and place for things. Neither Saturday nor Tuesday were the proper times to make a pedantic point about how the antifa elements of the crowd were just as repugnant. Antifa represents "the left" approximately as much as David Duke and the KKK represent "the right" - and any "fine people" on either side disavow those connections with fervor.

Trump, whether by design or dysfunction, managed to strengthen those connections. For the KKK bits of the right, that served as encouragement. For those mourning the dead, it served as another example of division rather than unity.
The very fine people thing was his one mistake. But it doesn't mean he's a Nazi supporter; it means that he thought there were mere statue protectors there. Do you know how it's reasonable to conclude that he thought there were mere statue protectors there? Because that's what he said.
Letting the "one mistake" comment go, once again, I haven't seen Trump described (here, anyway) as a Nazi *supporter*. He is, however, dogwhistling to their leadership - and that's a reasonable conclusion, because David Duke said so. The simplest rationale, as has been pointed out here a few times, is that DJT truly wants to believe there are fine people among the supremacists because they vote for him, and those who vote for him are, by definition, "fine people". He really doesn't think deeper than that, and at some level, you know this to be true.

It is interesting that in this instance we should take Donald J. Trump *literally at his word*, as opposed to all those times when we should not fixate on the words but instead contemplate and embrace the meanings behind them.

   642. Hot Wheeling American Posted: August 23, 2017 at 07:12 PM (#5519765)
@radleybalko
It's highly unlikely Arpaio would ever go to prison. And at 85, a criminal record won't hurt him. /1

He'll still be glorified and make $$ in the right wing. So as with most things Trump, Trump pardon isn't about Arpaio, it's about Trump. /2

It's about signaling. Of all the people unjustly convicted under federal law, Trump thins this one is the most deserving of a pardon. /3

The guy who profiled and harassed Latinos, got caught, and then still did it anyway. The guy who was gratuitously cruel to inmates ... /4

... some of whom were never convicted of a crime. Arpaio also abused his power to intimidate the press, and to silence critics. /5

It's telling that Trump explicitly cites Arpaio's record of public service as justification for a pardon. Arpaio's record ... /6

... consists of abusing immigrants and inmates, harassing Latinos, using his office to attack the press, and silencing critics ... /7

... and (until now) getting away with it. He has done in Arizona all that Trump dreams of doing, but so far hasn't been able to achieve. /8

Trump isn't pardoning Arpaio. Trump is pardoning the man Trump wants to be. /end
   643. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 23, 2017 at 07:14 PM (#5519768)
Well, whadda ya know - UC Berkeley Still Gets Free Speech Right:
This fall, the issue of free speech will once more engage our community in powerful and complex ways. Events in Charlottesville, with their racism, bigotry, violence and mayhem, make the issue of free speech even more tense. The law is very clear; public institutions like UC Berkeley must permit speakers invited in accordance with campus policies to speak, without discrimination in regard to point of view. The United States has the strongest free speech protections of any liberal democracy; the First Amendment protects even speech that most of us would find hateful, abhorrent and odious, and the courts have consistently upheld these protections.

But the most powerful argument for free speech is not one of legal constraint — that we’re required to allow it — but of value. The public expression of many sharply divergent points of view is fundamental both to our democracy and to our mission as a university. The philosophical justification underlying free speech, most powerfully articulated by John Stuart Mill in his book, On Liberty, rests on two basic assumptions. The first is that truth is of such power that it will always ultimately prevail; any abridgement of argument therefore compromises the opportunity of exchanging error for truth. The second is an extreme skepticism about the right of any authority to determine which opinions are noxious or abhorrent. Once you embark on the path to censorship, you make your own speech vulnerable to it.

Berkeley, as you know, is the home of the Free Speech Movement, where students on the right and students on the left united to fight for the right to advocate political views on campus. Particularly now, it is critical that the Berkeley community come together once again to protect this right. It is who we are.

Nonetheless, defending the right of free speech for those whose ideas we find offensive is not easy. It often conflicts with the values we hold as a community — tolerance, inclusion, reason and diversity. Some constitutionally-protected speech attacks the very identity of particular groups of individuals in ways that are deeply hurtful. However, the right response is not the heckler’s veto, or what some call platform denial. Call toxic speech out for what it is, don’t shout it down, for in shouting it down, you collude in the narrative that universities are not open to all speech. Respond to hate speech with more speech.

We all desire safe space, where we can be ourselves and find support for our identities. You have the right at Berkeley to expect the university to keep you physically safe. But we would be providing students with a less valuable education, preparing them less well for the world after graduation, if we tried to shelter them from ideas that many find wrong, even dangerous. We must show that we can choose what to listen to, that we can cultivate our own arguments and that we can develop inner resilience, which is the surest form of safe space. These are not easy tasks, and we will offer support services for those who desire them.

This September, Ben Shapiro and Milo Yiannopoulos have both been invited by student groups to speak at Berkeley. The university has the responsibility to provide safety and security for its community and guests, and we will invest the necessary resources to achieve that goal. If you choose to protest, do so peacefully. That is your right, and we will defend it with vigor. We will not tolerate violence, and we will hold anyone accountable who engages in it.

We will have many opportunities this year to come together as a Berkeley community over the issue of free speech; it will be a free speech year. We have already planned a student panel, a faculty panel and several book talks. Bridge USA and the Center for New Media will hold a day-long conference on October 5; PEN, the international writers’ organization, will hold a free speech convening in Berkeley on October 23. We are planning a series in which people with sharply divergent points of view will meet for a moderated discussion. Free speech is our legacy, and we have the power once more to shape this narrative.

That's just a statement by the Chancellor; we'll see who follows it, but the statement is a good start.
   644. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 07:14 PM (#5519769)
...and did so in such a clever way that David Duke immediately thanked him, signalling to the white supremacy crowd


And to you?
   645. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 07:18 PM (#5519774)
Part of being a leader is knowing the proper time and place for things.


Actually, that's just cliche.

He's not a trained politician.

Neither Saturday nor Tuesday were the proper times to make a pedantic point about how the antifa elements of the crowd were just as repugnant.


"It's bad to commit violence" is a pedantic point?

Antifa represents "the left" approximately as much as David Duke and the KKK represent "the right"


Right. That's why Trump called them the "alt-left."
   646. BDC Posted: August 23, 2017 at 07:21 PM (#5519775)
You gotta admit that pardoning Arpaio would be another Trump accomplishment, maybe the first that doesn't involve a judicial nomination. And the kind of accomplishment that his base, and Republicans generally, can really get behind.

It seems analogous to bringing home one guy from Dunkirk in one boat, but it's a start :)
   647. PepTech Posted: August 23, 2017 at 07:33 PM (#5519782)
...and did so in such a clever way that David Duke immediately thanked him, signalling to the white supremacy crowd

And to you?
It's possible you meant this as an actual question, so I'll answer it in that spirit. Yes, to me, the manner in which Donald Trump spoke on Saturday and Tuesday represented a man who, even though he knows at one level that the Nazis/KKK/White Supremacy is evil, still could not bring himself to unreservedly criticize a not-insignificant percentage of his base, because he is perpetually campaigning for the adulation of everyone. A man who is bereft of a moral compass, for lack of a better phrase, and incapable of understanding the complexity of the issues at hand. Based on the velocity, depth, and political range of the response to his words, it would seem that I am in the overwhelming majority of humanity here.

It's also possible, given that you separated this portion from the rest of your reply, that you were making some clunky attempt to imply that I identify in some way with the white supremacy crowd, which reflects only on your character, not mine. Historically you resort to this type of comment when you realize you have no other recourse, save admitting foolishness. No offense taken.
   648. PepTech Posted: August 23, 2017 at 07:38 PM (#5519784)
Neither Saturday nor Tuesday were the proper times to make a pedantic point about how the antifa elements of the crowd were just as repugnant.

"It's bad to commit violence" is a pedantic point?
No, the "pedantic point" is the part of my quote that I bolded, not the phrase you changed it to. "It's bad to commit violence" is a highly commendable point. It's unclear why you would attempt to make it sound like anyone here feels differently, except to distract from Trump's misspeaking.
   649. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 07:45 PM (#5519789)
Ummm... I've finally looked into the permits issue.

People here said that Trump was wrong when he said that the Nazis had a permit and the counter-protestors did not.

But that seems to be essentially what the case was.

It's more complex than that, but basically according to Snopes:

1. The Nazis were protesting in Emancipation Park (where the statue of the ESPN broadcaster is located).

2. The Nazis had permission to protest in Emancipation Park.

I'll pause here: The Nazis didn't have a permit per se for Emancipation Park because the city wanted them to protest in McIntire Park instead. But the Nazis sued and a judge sided with them, and thus the city was ordered to allow them to protest in Emancipation Park. Thus, they had permission to protest there. If you are hung up on the fact that they had a judge's order and not a city permit then you're being.... pedantic.

But the main claim of people here was that Trump was wrong when he said that the counter-protestors didn't have a permit. But Trump was essentially correct:

3. The counter-protestors did have permits -- but not for Emancipation Park. Their permits were for nearby Justice and McGuffey parks.

Now, the counter-protesters didn't NEED a permit to come into Emancipation Park where the Nazis were, so perhaps Trump had no point, but he was correct that the counter-protestors didn't have a permit to protest where the Nazis were.

(If the Nazis went to nearby Justice and McGuffey parks that's another issue.)

Quoting from Snopes:

Opponents to the “Unite the Right” rally on 12 August 2017 in fact did have permits, which were provided to us by the city of Charlottesville; they were allowed to be in nearby Justice and McGuffey parks from 9 A.M. until 7 P.M. Both parks are within a short walking distance to Emancipation Park, where the white supremacist rally was held. Counter-demonstration organizer Walter Heinecke told us:

It was a rally for racial justice, harmony, and end of white supremacy. I got the permits because at the [8 July 2017] KKK rally after the KKK had left, the police moved on counter-protesters really quickly and declared it an unlawful assembly, and then teargassed counter-protesters without giving them much of a chance to leave. So I got the permits with the understanding that the two parks were fairly close to Emancipation Park and were to be used as lawful assembly spots for counter-demonstrators.

On the other hand, the Unite the Right rally didn’t have a city permit — they had a judge’s order. According to documents provided by the city, organizer Jason Kessler applied for a permit on 30 May 2017 to hold the rally at Emancipation Park (which used to be called Lee Park), where a controversial statue of Confederate general Robert E. Lee has been the focal point of racial tensions. The city had tried to move that demonstration from Emancipation Park, which is the size of one city block downtown, to McIntire Park, which is larger and away from central Charlottesville. But Kessler sued, and a judge sided with him.

City spokeswoman Miriam Dickler explained by e-mail how the alt-right rally was allowed to go forward in its originally intended location:


And here's the part saying that the counter-protestors didn't need permits to come into Emancipation Park:

Heinecke, a University of Virginia professor, told us that counter-demonstrators did not need a permit to protest the white supremacist rally at Emancipation Park because it is a public space:

If the president is referring to the counter-protesters at Emancipation Park on 12 August, he’s incorrect because the counter protesters are not required by law to have a permit to demonstrate against protesters.

As Dickler pointed out to the Washington Post, that is true — the public doesn’t need a permit to enter the park or the sidewalks surrounding it even if an event is scheduled.


Conclusion: Trump was essentially correct. The Nazis had a permit for where they were (Emancipation Park) and the counter-protestors did not. Now, the counter-protestors were allowed to go there, so in the end Trump has no point -- but people who said he was wrong to say that the counter-protestors didn't have a permit are themselves wrong on the facts. The counter-protestors had permits for two OTHER parks, not for the main park.
   650. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 07:53 PM (#5519794)
It's also possible, given that you separated this portion from the rest of your reply, that you were making some clunky attempt to imply that I identify in some way with the white supremacy crowd, which reflects only on your character, not mine. Historically you resort to this type of comment when you realize you have no other recourse, save admitting foolishness. No offense taken.


No, that wasn't my point. My point was not that you're a racist; my point was that your logic doesn't work. Because you're claiming that Trump is dogwhistling to racists but if you can hear it yourself you're either a racist or you're being illogical. Since I believe and you know that you're not a racist..... that leaves the logic problem.

(I had no reason for separating this part of my post. I'm doing other stuff at the moment.)

Oh, also, earlier today David rejected the idea that Trump was dogwhistling. But you say here that it is indeed your belief that Trump was dogwhistling:

Letting the "one mistake" comment go, once again, I haven't seen Trump described (here, anyway) as a Nazi *supporter*. He is, however, dogwhistling to their leadership - and that's a reasonable conclusion, because David Duke said so.
   651. PepTech Posted: August 23, 2017 at 07:59 PM (#5519795)
Conclusion: Trump was essentially correct. The Nazis had a permit for where they were (Emancipation Park) and the counter-protestors did not. Now, the counter-protestors were allowed to go there, so in the end Trump has no point -- but people who said he was wrong to say that the counter-protestors didn't have a permit are themselves wrong on the facts. The counter-protestors had permits for two OTHER parks, not for the main park.
Congratulations, Trump wins the Great Permit Debate.

This ignores the main issue, which is that both sides had been separated, and the day would have been a footnote - if a supremacist nutball hadn't driven into a crowd and killed somebody, which made it An Event.

Trump then blew his opportunity to clearly denounce nutballs. He may have tried, as you valiantly continue to point out. But he blew it. And then blew it again on Tuesday - although he did get the Permit thing right, so yay. And then he blew it again last night in Phoenix. But he did say "violence is bad", so keep repeating that if it makes you feel better.
   652. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 08:04 PM (#5519799)
Congratulations, Trump wins the Great Permit Debate.


The point is that people here held up Trump as being wrong in that Great Debate. But his version was closer to being right than wrong. And to expect him to lay out the detail that Snopes did during contemporaneous comments in a heated press conference is ridiculous.

I grant that it appears he misled (or misunderstood) because the counter-protestors didn't need a permit, but the fact is that they didn't have one, and so Trump was correct when he said they didn't.
   653. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 23, 2017 at 08:06 PM (#5519800)
If you saw a bunch of normally dressed people just sort of milling about amongst the Nazis but not marching, not chanting, would you be able to tell whether they were Nazis or just statue protectors? The fact that they were there would suggest Nazi; the fact that they were dressed normally and not marching or chanting would suggest statue protector.


Well, there were some photos like that, which SBB, or whatever he's calling himself now, and others tried to pass off as possible fine people. But it turns out those people showed up in other photos or videos as marchers and chanters. To my knowledge, no one has put forth photos of innocent looking people that didn't later prove to be stills of Nazi marchers.
   654. PepTech Posted: August 23, 2017 at 08:07 PM (#5519801)
Oh, also, earlier today David rejected the idea that Trump was dogwhistling. But you say here that it is indeed your belief that Trump was dogwhistling:

Letting the "one mistake" comment go, once again, I haven't seen Trump described (here, anyway) as a Nazi *supporter*. He is, however, dogwhistling to their leadership - and that's a reasonable conclusion, because David Duke said so.
A) I'm not David, and I'm not beholden to his conclusions.
B) My "dogwhistling logic" is based on how David Duke reacted throughout the weekend as the amplifier, if you will, of Trump's messaging. My personal reaction to Trump's commentary as a whole was not to thank Trump. My personal reaction, and that of everyone from Anderson Cooper to David Gergen to Paul Ryan, was that Trump blew it. See my first paragraph in 647 for a refresher on the details.

Edited to add C) The fact that other people have "hysterically" called Trump a Nazi supporter has nothing to do with B, or anything else. Sure, there's a segment of society that can't think rationally when it comes to Trump. But here, Trump blew it. Full Stop.
   655. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 23, 2017 at 08:11 PM (#5519802)
"It's bad to commit violence" is a pedantic point?


it's bad to smoke 4 packs of cigarettes a day. The time to bring that up is not during the eulogy for the deceased.
   656. PepTech Posted: August 23, 2017 at 08:13 PM (#5519803)
The point is that people here held up Trump as being wrong in that Great Debate. But his version was closer to being right than wrong.
Again - congratulations to you and POTUS on that victory. Stipulated.

-----------------
it's bad to smoke 4 packs of cigarettes a day. The time to bring that up is not during the eulogy for the deceased.
A better analogy I heard was the case of a physically abusive marriage where the wife, after taking it for too long, attempted to kill her abuser, and she wound up dead. Violence on both sides. It's bad to commit violence.
   657. greenback wears sandals on his head Posted: August 23, 2017 at 08:19 PM (#5519804)
And to expect him to lay out the detail that Snopes did during contemporaneous comments in a heated press conference is ridiculous.

Trump claims he was waiting to know all the facts. Are you suggesting that was a lie?
   658. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 08:24 PM (#5519805)
Trump claims he was waiting to know all the facts. Are you suggesting that was a lie?


I'm not suggesting that; I already stated that outright. My conclusion has been that he lied in saying that.

I don't think he wanted to admit that the firestorm caused him to make the further statement.

Regardless, that has nothing to do with the permits issue per se.

   659. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 23, 2017 at 08:30 PM (#5519808)
This presidential photo portrait seems timely to the discussion.
   660. greenback wears sandals on his head Posted: August 23, 2017 at 08:31 PM (#5519811)
Regardless, that has nothing to do with the permits issue per se.

Sorry, didn't mean to interrupt the point that justifies all Nazi activity, including the concentration camps (but obviously not the death camps).
   661. PepTech Posted: August 23, 2017 at 08:32 PM (#5519813)
Because you're claiming that Trump is dogwhistling to racists but if you can hear it yourself you're either a racist or you're being illogical.
In case it needed to be more clear to the binary thinkers, there's a third, correct, interpretation: I saw the racist dog (David Duke) jump.
   662. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 08:44 PM (#5519821)
Must. Dig. Deeper:
New: internal memo from ESPN prez John Skipper about the Robert Lee decision
   663. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 08:45 PM (#5519824)
No, there were multiple Jameses, but there wasn't even one Mark... He wrote a gospel but wasn't an actual Apostle (ducks)


Save it for the semitics dome, CS Lewis.
   664. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 23, 2017 at 08:50 PM (#5519825)
Because you're claiming that Trump is dogwhistling to racists but if you can hear it yourself you're either a racist or you're being illogical.


That's ridiculous. One can understand what the Nazis meant when they were chanting "Blood and Soil" without being a Nazi.
   665. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:01 PM (#5519834)
Must. Dig. Deeper:


There's a neo-fascist in the White House and this is the #### you jack off about. Democracies fail because of the lack of a sane conservative party to put breaks on the rabid evil that gurgles up from those wings. You're doing your best to bring this one down for the same lack thereof.
   666. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:02 PM (#5519835)
That's ridiculous.


Trump is not "dogwhistling." He's in bed with them publicly. The days of the GOP *secretly* courting the racists and fascists on the coy, wink wink, nudge nudge, are long gone. This is the party's "center" now.
   667. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:05 PM (#5519839)
Illusions Michael! Tricks are something whores do for money... ... ... or [sees children nearby] ... candy!


The Grand Illusion

“You see,” he explained, “there is in the world one awful thing, and that is that everyone has his reasons.”
   668. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:06 PM (#5519840)
Because you're claiming that Trump is dogwhistling to racists but if you can hear it yourself you're either a racist or you're being illogical.


Oh, my sweet summer child.
   669. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:10 PM (#5519846)
Oh, also, earlier today David rejected the idea that Trump was dogwhistling.


I'm not dialing back the thread, but I'm virtually certain that if David did this, it's because "dogwhistling" implies subtly wooing those elements while pretending not to, and Trump doesn't bother to pretend not to.
   670. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:13 PM (#5519847)
There's a neo-fascist in the White House and this is the #### you jack off about. Democracies fail because of the lack of a sane conservative party to put breaks on the rabid evil that gurgles up from those wings. You're doing your best to bring this one down for the same lack thereof.
SHRIEK LOUDER!!! The supposed neo-fascist who's unable to pass a single piece of legislation can't hear you.
   671. Count Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:22 PM (#5519856)
He basically is a fascist (or if you prefer racist nationalist authoritarian to be more precise). He hasn't been that effective, thankfully (though the muslim ban is still alive for now) in part because he's a moron and in part because of sustained opposition.
   672. Count Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:26 PM (#5519865)
Meanwhile, one of the reasons Trump was angry with McConnell was that McConnell wasn't running enough interference on the Russian investigation and McConnell supported the sanctions bill. And there are yet more Russia emails:

(CNN) Congressional investigators have unearthed an email from a top Trump aide that referenced a previously unreported effort to arrange a meeting last year between Trump campaign officials and Russian President Vladimir Putin, according to sources with direct knowledge of the matter.

The aide, Rick Dearborn, who is now President Donald Trump's deputy chief of staff, sent a brief email to campaign officials last year relaying information about an individual who was seeking to connect top Trump officials with Putin, the sources said.

The person was only identified in the email as being from "WV," which one source said was a reference to West Virginia. It's unclear who the individual is, what he or she was seeking, or whether Dearborn even acted on the request. One source said that the individual was believed to have had political connections in West Virginia, but details about the request and who initiated it remain vague.
The same source said Dearborn in the email appeared skeptical of the requested meeting.

Sources said the email occurred in June 2016 around the time of the recently revealed Trump Tower meeting where Russians with Kremlin ties met with the president's eldest son, Donald Trump Jr., his son-in-law Jared Kushner as well as then-campaign chairman, Paul Manafort.

While many details around the Dearborn email are unclear, its existence suggests the Russians may have been looking for another entry point into the Trump campaign to see if there were any willing partners as part of their effort to discredit -- and ultimately defeat -- Hillary Clinton.

Dearborn's name has not been mentioned much as part of the Russia probe. But he served as then-Sen. Jeff Sessions' chief of staff, as well as a top policy aide on the campaign. And investigators have questions about whether he played a role in potentially arranging two meetings that occurred between the then-Russia ambassador to the US, Sergey Kislyak, and Sessions, who has downplayed the significance of those encounters.

Dearborn was involved in helping to arrange an April 2016 event at the Mayflower Hotel where Trump delivered a major foreign policy address, sources said. Kislyak attended the event and a reception beforehand, but it's unclear whether he interacted with Sessions there.

Dearborn did not respond to multiple inquiries seeking comment. White House Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders declined to comment, and would not respond to inquiries about Dearborn's email and whether the campaign carried through with that meeting.

"We aren't going to comment on potentially leaked documents," Sanders said.

Intelligence experts say the request made by the unidentified West Virginian fits a pattern of Russians trying to gather human intelligence and seek unwilling -- and sometimes unwitting partners -- as part of their covert operations.

"The Russians are really experts at this," said Steve Hall, a retired CIA chief of Russia operations.

But Hall added that it would be unusual to set up a meeting with Putin himself before meeting with operatives tied to the Kremlin.

Emails about potentially meeting Putin

The Russian "active measures" campaign to influence the US election was fully underway when Dearborn sent his email. This included cyberattacks against the Democratic National Committee and Clinton's senior staffers, as well as pro-Trump messaging by Kremlin-backed propaganda outlets, according to a report declassified by the US intelligence community in January.
And Dearborn wasn't the only person within the Trump campaign emailing about potential Russia meetings. Trump campaign adviser George Papadopoulos sent an email to top campaign officials in March 2016 about arranging meetings with Russians, sources said. The subject line was "Meeting with Russian Leadership -- Including Putin," according to the source.

Sources told CNN that senior campaign officials dismissed that proposal. Papadopoulos has not responded to CNN's previous requests for comment.

Despite the fact that his idea was brushed aside, Papadopoulos continued his emails about arranging meetings with Russians to other Trump campaign officials for months, The Washington Post reported

"Putin wants to host the Trump team when the time is right," Papadopoulos wrote in an email on April 27 to then-campaign manager Corey Lewandowski, according to the Post. On that same day, Trump delivered his foreign policy speech at the Mayflower Hotel.

The emails from Dearborn and Papadopoulos were included in the batch of 20,000 emails that the Trump campaign handed over to multiple congressional committees earlier this summer.

CNN has reported that the FBI saw intelligence last summer suggesting that Russian operatives tried to use Trump advisers to infiltrate the campaign. Sources said this intelligence referenced foreign policy adviser Carter Page. Page denies ever working for Russia or having any improper contact with Russians.

Sessions led the campaign's foreign policy team, which included Page and Papadopoulos.

Undisclosed meetings with Kislyak

Sessions met at least twice during the campaign with Kislyak, and congressional investigators want to question whether Dearborn was involved in arranging those meetings, which took place in July and September 2016, sources said.

The Attorney General first acknowledged the meetings in March, despite testifying at his confirmation hearing that he "did not have communications with the Russians" and repeated denials from Trump officials that there were any contacts between the campaign and Russians.

The kerfuffle over Sessions' meetings and his lack of disclosure helped trigger his recusal from overseeing the Russia investigation, an action that was widely praised but angered Trump.

CNN reported in May that congressional investigators were examining whether Sessions attended a third private meeting with Kislyak, at the Mayflower event that Dearborn apparently helped plan.

Sessions later told the Senate intelligence committee he didn't remember meeting with or talking to Kislyak at the hotel. Kushner also helped organized the event, and he told congressional investigators earlier this summer that he briefly "shook hands" and "exchanged brief pleasantries" with Kislyak at a reception before Trump's speech.

During the speech, Trump said that "an easing of tensions and improved relations with Russia, from a position of strength, is possible." Kislyak watched from his seat in the front row.

Sessions ally lands in the White House

Dearborn spent nearly two decades working for Sessions in the Senate, eventually rising to chief of staff, a position he held for 12 years, including throughout the 2016 campaign.

Like his boss, who was a top Trump surrogate on the presidential campaign trail, Dearborn played dual roles last year. He ran Sessions' Senate office and also led the Trump campaign's Virginia-based policy shop, handling congressional relations and crafting policy proposals.

The Trump campaign paid Dearborn more than $28,000 last year, mostly for "policy consulting" but also to reimburse travel expenses, according to Federal Election Commission filings.

Shortly after Trump's victory, Dearborn emerged as executive director of the Trump transition.

Dearborn was later appointed Trump's deputy chief of staff for legislative, intergovernmental affairs and implementation, cementing his position in the White House as a senior policy aide. He is among the handful of Sessions aides who landed plum jobs in the administration.

   673. PepTech Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:28 PM (#5519867)
Jason, given the mood in the country these days, it's probably more likely that there's some kind of misguided Trump-inspired militia related uprising, or whatever the term is, than Trump is likely to pass any major legislation. I wish I could put a :-) here…
   674. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:29 PM (#5519869)
The supposed neo-fascist who's unable to pass a single piece of legislation can't hear you.


You've become such a partisan idiot that you're literally supporting fascism. Wake up, Jason. Your country needs you.
   675. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:32 PM (#5519876)
He basically is a fascist (or if you prefer racist nationalist authoritarian to be more precise).
He's neither racist nor authoritarian. Nationalist? Absolutely. Insecure clownfish? No doubt.
He hasn't been that effective, thankfully (though the muslim ban is still alive for now) in part because he's a moron and in part because of sustained opposition.
So... since the Supreme Court unanimously let the TRAVEL ban remain in place, may we assume that even the Notorious RBG has gone orange fascist on us?
   676. tshipman Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:33 PM (#5519879)
I have no idea why Jason is so monomaniacal about this ESPN thing.

The newscaster himself thought it would be better to just do a different game. No one thought people would be upset, they just thought it would be marginally easier.

Oh wait, I know why.
   677. Count Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:34 PM (#5519882)
Trump was upset with two other senators about Russia issues:

President Donald Trump privately vented his frustration over Russia-related matters with at least two other Republican senators this month, according to people familiar with the conversations — in addition to the president's public admonishments of Mitch McConnell, John McCain and Jeff Flake.

Trump expressed frustration over a bipartisan bill sanctioning Russia and tried to convince Senate Foreign Relations Chairman Bob Corker (R-Tenn.) that it wasn't good policy, according to three people familiar with the call. Trump argued that the legislation was unconstitutional and said it would damage his presidency. Corker was unrelenting, these people said, and told Trump the bill was going to pass both houses with bipartisan support.
"He was clearly frustrated," one person said of Trump’s call with Corker earlier this month. The bill cleared Congress overwhelmingly last month and Trump grudgingly signed it on Aug. 2.

Trump dialed up Sen. Thom Tillis (R-N.C.) on Aug. 7, two days before a blunt call with the Senate majority leader that spilled over into a public feud. Tillis is working with Sen. Chris Coons (D-Del.) on a bill designed to protect Robert Mueller, the independent counsel investigating the president's Russia connections, from any attempt by Trump to fire him.

The Mueller bill came up during the Tillis-Trump conversation, according to a source briefed on the call — the latest signal of the president's impatience with GOP senators' increasing declarations of independence from his White House. Trump was unhappy with the legislation and didn't want it to pass, one person familiar with the call said.

A Tillis spokesman confirmed the date of the senator's call with the president and later described the call as "cordial," saying other issues were discussed. A Corker spokeswoman described the late July conversation as a "productive conversation about the congressional review portion of the Russia sanctions bill."

White House spokeswoman Lindsay Walters said, "We do not comment on private conversations the president has with members of Congress. We are committed to working together on tax relief, border security, strengthening the military, and other important issues." A separate statement from the White House press secretary Wednesday said that Trump and McConnell "will hold previously scheduled meetings following the August recess to discuss these critical items with members of the congressional leadership and the president’s Cabinet. White House and leadership staff are coordinating regarding the details of those meetings."
The earlier, private calls offer more evidence of Trump's uneasy relationship with congressional Republicans. Trump has angered McConnell with a damning critique of the Kentucky Republican's performance on repealing Obamacare and threats to try to take out Flake (R-Ariz.) — a vocal Trump critic — in a Republican primary next year.

Trump's chewing out of GOP senators, according to people briefed on the calls, reflected the president's frustration that fellow Republicans would make moves that could damage him, particularly on an investigation that he detests. Trump also complained about the Russian sanctions measure in a call with McConnell earlier this month that devolved into shouting. The New York Times first reported that Trump discussed the Russia probe with McConnell.

"It seems he is just always focused on Russia," one senior GOP aide said.

Since coming into the West Wing, chief of staff John Kelly has tried to curb Trump's unscheduled interactions with legislators, senior administration officials say. Trump has been known to see a senator on TV or think about an issue and immediately ask White House assistant Madeleine Westerhout to dial the senator.

But Kelly has asked that senior White House aides, such as legislative affairs head Marc Short, be present for the calls‚ and for Trump to be briefed in advance on the topic.
No matter what Kelly does, Trump and the Senate GOP are in for a rough September, a month that's shaping up as pivotal for his presidency. Along with his attacks on various Republican senators, Trump's aides and advisers are touting polls that show Congress is more unpopular than Trump is — and that they're prepared to run against the quintessential Washington institution.

Trump's insistence on funding his long-promised U.S.-Mexico border wall promises to further strain relations with Senate Republicans, who must secure at least eight Democratic votes to keep the government funded past Sept. 30. But the president appears unconcerned with helping McConnell navigate that challenge, declaring Tuesday night in Phoenix: "If we have to close down the government, we are going to build that wall."

Any wall funding will almost certainly be a deal-breaker for Senate Democrats. Minority Leader Chuck Schumer of New York and Minority Whip Dick Durbin of Illinois underscored that with tweets Tuesday rejecting reports of a potential White House-initiated immigration deal involving border wall funding.

Democrats, aware of their leverage heading into next month's talks on government funding, are urging McConnell and his GOP to ignore the president's threat.

"There's a big task in front of us that requires bipartisanship, and may require bucking the president, and that's keeping the government funded," one senior Senate Democratic aide said. "We saw back in April, when the White House was making threats on the wall, that Republicans ignored those threats. We need to have that happen again to avoid a disaster at the end of September."

Several senior Senate Republicans gave a cold shoulder to Trump's wall plans before leaving Washington for this month's recess. They floated a $15 billion border security bill that emphasizes "smart, multi-layered infrastructure" — but not the president's proposed physical barrier.
Still, Trump's team is keeping up the pressure on the chamber that failed him on a Obamacare repeal effort. His campaign's joint fundraising arm with the Republican National Committee launched an online appeal this week urging supporters to directly lobby the GOP Senate for a "down payment" on the wall.

Speaker Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) pushed back Wednesday during an appearance in Oregon, declaring that "I don't think anyone's interested in having a shutdown. I don't think it's in our interest to do so."

Trump and McConnell are expected to meet for the first time following the president's jabs at the senator after this month's recess.

"We have regular meetings, and the White House and members of the congressional leadership have been working on the next meetings after recess," McConnell spokesman Don Stewart said by email. "But any scheduling announcements will come from the White House."

McConnell's office later released a statement that sidestepped Trump's shutdown threat but declared their mutual commitment "to fund the government so we can advance our priorities in the short and long terms," alongside tax reform, infrastructure funding, and other top priorities.

“The president and I, and our teams, have been and continue to be in regular contact about our shared goals," McConnell said, before outlining the party's agenda. "We have a lot of work ahead of us, and we are committed to advancing our shared agenda together and anyone who suggests otherwise is clearly not part of the conversation."

   678. Omineca Greg Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:35 PM (#5519885)
So, there was a protest in Vancouver today.

It was about the salmon.

There were some salmon that escaped from their pen on Sunday.

They were American salmon. And I don't want to upset anybody, but...uh...American salmon? Ummm...yeah...well, I don't want to upset anybody, but you really have to wonder about America's salmon imperialism. That's all I'm going to say.

For now.

But worse than that...they were Atlantic salmon. Atlantic salmon, they suck. I can forgive Europeans, because, you know, that's their only choice, but here in North America, where we have three oceans to choose from, we don't have an excuse. And I know some Skandi lover (yeah, you know the guy) is going to come on and say, "But the gravlax, it tastes so good!"...it's alright, OK. It's just alright. And the skirt wearing Mc this and Mac that, you know the people, they think their salmon is good, but it's not good, it's bad. I'm sorry, it's bad. But like I say, they can't help it, it's that or no salmon at all.

But Americans? They should know better. Alaskans know better, and I know everybody in the rest of the States, they laugh at Alaskans, because they talk funny, and they can see Russia from their houses, for some reason they're a laughing stock. But they know salmon, and they don't let Atlantic salmon in their waters. And now, there's going to be these people who say, "All salmons are created equal, give me your poor huddled whatevers, Alaskans should have to take down their Stars and Stripes, they're going back to their русские roots. Grrr!!!!". But all salmons aren't created equal. I know some people, for political reasons, to back up their beliefs, are in denial of basic science. It's evolution, my friend...

Atlantic salmon tastes like ass.

So, these salmon escaped. A few of them escaped. Yeah...300 000 escaped. So, that's quite a few. American salmon. Atlantic salmon. And guess where they went? That's right...Canada. The escaped salmon went to Canada.

Some Canadians, they don't want to see the truth. "Oh, we've been getting a lot of asylum seekers from the States. No biggie. Justin invited them. And he's dreamy...". But a few of us hosers, we're not as dumb as we look...

You don't think we know how that #### went down in Texas? They gave you Florida! But it wasn't enough, for some people it just wasn't enough.

We're onto your little capers (while delicious with salmon, that's not the kind of capers I'm talking about. Don't be obtuse.)

These salmon, they're double foreigners, Atlantic and American. Strangers in a strange land. Err...sea. I'm just bringing it up so you know...that I know...what's at stake. It's a salmon stake. Just a joke there, son...to lighten the mood. Doubt it worked.

We had a protest today. It's a good thing that it wasn't too publicised, you guys probably would have sent some astroturfed agitators in. So here's a picture, I think when you see the resolve, and the sheer mass of protesters, you'll have to mull over your little gambit and wonder if it's really worth it.

THE TRUE NORTH STRONG AND FREE ############!!!

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

On guard.

For thee.
   679. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:35 PM (#5519886)
You've become such a partisan idiot that you're literally supporting fascism. Wake up, Jason. Your country needs you.


Maybe if the Jews get on board early with fascism this time they can help guide it in positive directions.
   680. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:36 PM (#5519889)
Jason, given the mood in the country these days, it's probably more likely that there's some kind of misguided Trump-inspired militia related uprising, or whatever the term is, than Trump is likely to pass any major legislation. I wish I could put a :-) here…
Or maybe it's more likely that another lefty, inspired by his/her local Sammy, will try to take out Republican Members of Congress?
   681. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:38 PM (#5519893)
The newscaster himself thought it would be better to just do a different game. No one thought people would be upset, they just thought it would be marginally easier.
Because you believe the "explanation" the ESPN President mustered nearly 24 hours after being outed as a laughingstock?

FFS, even lefties went on the record to mock the ESPN suits.
   682. Count Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:39 PM (#5519894)
675. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:32 PM (#5519876)
He basically is a fascist (or if you prefer racist nationalist authoritarian to be more precise).
He's neither racist nor authoritarian. Nationalist? Absolutely. Insecure clownfish? No doubt.
He hasn't been that effective, thankfully (though the muslim ban is still alive for now) in part because he's a moron and in part because of sustained opposition.
So... since the Supreme Court unanimously let the TRAVEL ban remain in place, may we assume that even the Notorious RBG has gone orange fascist on us?


1) It's incredible that you would dispute his racism, at the very least. He discriminated against black tenants, he constantly made up lies about minority groups, he was a birther for years (and still is, probably), etc. etc. Authoritarianism is also pretty obvious: attacks on the press, encouraging police violence, smacking protestors....

2) The Supreme Court stayed portions of a lower court ruling before argument in October; they have not made a permanent ruling on the "for some reason i'm going to call it a travel ban even though it is incredibly obviously designed to target muslims because they are muslim and was enacted by a guy who called for a muslim ban and his friends said the ban was designed to legally enact the muslim ban plan" ban. An article on their ruling is here. I say it is still alive because we don't know how SCOTUS will rule.
   683. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:40 PM (#5519895)
The point is that people here held up Trump as being wrong in that Great Debate. But his version was closer to being right than wrong. And to expect him to lay out the detail that Snopes did during contemporaneous comments in a heated press conference is ridiculous.
Trump said that they didn't have a permit. They did. How is that closer to being right than wrong?
   684. Count Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:40 PM (#5519896)
679. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:35 PM (#5519886)
You've become such a partisan idiot that you're literally supporting fascism. Wake up, Jason. Your country needs you.


Maybe if the Jews get on board early with fascism this time they can help guide it in positive directions.


Don't give Netanyahu any more ideas!
   685. Count Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:42 PM (#5519903)
The ESPN thing was nuts. It reminds me - a friend of mine interviewed at a law firm in the south and saw that several people were named "Robert Lee." In a twist, he assumed they would be asian and was wrong.
   686. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:42 PM (#5519906)
Rickey! replying to Ray, #669:
Oh, also, earlier today David rejected the idea that Trump was dogwhistling.

I'm not dialing back the thread, but I'm virtually certain that if David did this, it's because "dogwhistling" implies subtly wooing those elements while pretending not to, and Trump doesn't bother to pretend not to.



You may be entirely certain, because that is correct.

But certain words do exist, and they can be read in isolation, and they can be extracted and emphasized in the absence of visible context. Thus, the notion that some of David N.'s words rejected Trump's dogwhistling is just as "true" as Trump's forceful condemnation of the racists in Charlottesville.
   687. PepTech Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:43 PM (#5519911)
Sure, the charged-up frustrated fringe on either side; the result is just as ugly for the country. If you get to claim some kind of victory over how it starts, whoopee. Sitting it where I sit it's equally dismaying.
   688. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:44 PM (#5519913)
That's ridiculous. One can understand what the Nazis meant when they were chanting "Blood and Soil" without being a Nazi.
But that's not a dog whistle, so I don't understand your argument.
   689. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:45 PM (#5519917)
I'm not dialing back the thread, but I'm virtually certain that if David did this, it's because "dogwhistling" implies subtly wooing those elements while pretending not to, and Trump doesn't bother to pretend not to.
This. I said it was a foghorn, not a dog whistle.
   690. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:47 PM (#5519919)
1) It's incredible that you would dispute his racism, at the very least. He discriminated against black tenants, he constantly made up lies about minority groups, he was a birther for years (and still is, probably), etc. etc. Authoritarianism is also pretty obvious: attacks on the press, encouraging police violence, smacking protestors....
The former makes him just another ####### real estate developer trying to maximize profits on the backs of his tenants. The latter makes him an ####### opportunist, little different from other political outsider ########, such as the Rev. Al Sharpton.

Maybe Trump will reveal evil thoughts about blacks in the coming weeks, months, or years. But to date, I haven't seen enough evidence to conclude he's a racist.
2) The Supreme Court stayed portions of a lower court ruling before argument in October; they have not made a permanent ruling on the "for some reason i'm going to call it a travel ban even though it is incredibly obviously designed to target muslims because they are muslim and was enacted by a guy who called for a muslim ban and his friends said the ban was designed to legally enact the muslim ban plan" ban. An article on their ruling is here. I say it is still alive because we don't know how SCOTUS will rule.
If the travel ban were even 1/1000th as odious as you make it out to be, the Court wouldn't have unanimously held that it could remain in place for any length of time.
   691. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:48 PM (#5519921)
He's neither racist nor authoritarian.
He personally is extremely authoritarian. He's not running an authoritarian government, if that's what you mean. He's just not competent enough for that. (He can't even figure out that you can't control the executive branch if you don't bother to appoint people to office and have to rely on holdovers and career civil servants.)

As for racist, he's not ideologically racist, because that would require that he have an ideology and care about it. He's casually bigoted.
   692. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:50 PM (#5519925)
He personally is extremely authoritarian. He's not running an authoritarian government, if that's what you mean. He's just not competent enough for that. (He can't even figure out that you can't control the executive branch if you don't bother to appoint people to office and have to rely on holdovers and career civil servants.)
Agreed. I was sloppy with my wording.

FFS, it's nearly Labor Day and Trump hasn't even shitcanned IRS Commissioner Koskinen. Think about that for a second.
   693. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:55 PM (#5519928)
FFS, it's nearly Labor Day and Trump hasn't even shitcanned IRS Commissioner Koskinen. Think about that for a second.


It's Obama's fault.
   694. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:55 PM (#5519929)
Not using a pull quote spams the thread.
   695. Count Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:57 PM (#5519930)
690. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:47 PM (#5519919)
1) It's incredible that you would dispute his racism, at the very least. He discriminated against black tenants, he constantly made up lies about minority groups, he was a birther for years (and still is, probably), etc. etc. Authoritarianism is also pretty obvious: attacks on the press, encouraging police violence, smacking protestors....
The former makes him just another ####### real estate developer trying to maximize profits on the backs of his tenants. The latter makes him an ####### opportunist, little different from other political outsider ########, such as the Rev. Al Sharpton.

Maybe Trump will reveal evil thoughts about blacks in the coming weeks, months, or years. But to date, I haven't seen enough evidence to conclude he's a racist.
2) The Supreme Court stayed portions of a lower court ruling before argument in October; they have not made a permanent ruling on the "for some reason i'm going to call it a travel ban even though it is incredibly obviously designed to target muslims because they are muslim and was enacted by a guy who called for a muslim ban and his friends said the ban was designed to legally enact the muslim ban plan" ban. An article on their ruling is here. I say it is still alive because we don't know how SCOTUS will rule.
If the travel ban were even 1/1000th as odious as you make it out to be, the Court wouldn't have unanimously held that it could remain in place for any length of time.


1) That is extraordinarily generous. Mexican judge, rapists (and some, I assume are good people), muslims on the rooftops in New Jersey, attacking somali refugees right before the election... I'm sure I'm missing a ton of examples. You can throw in his comments in the last week, too.

2) No. Plenty of odious things are legal. For example, there are strong arguments that the most extreme version of the muslim ban, under which every muslim would be banned from entering - that is, Trump's original plan - would have been constitutional (in practice I don't think 5 judges on SCOTUS would be willing to sign up for that). It would not make it any less odious.
   696. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:02 PM (#5519933)
Trump's insistence on funding his long-promised U.S.-Mexico border wall promises to further strain relations with Senate Republicans, who must secure at least eight Democratic votes to keep the government funded past Sept. 30. But the president appears unconcerned with helping McConnell navigate that challenge, declaring Tuesday night in Phoenix: "If we have to close down the government, we are going to build that wall."


Why do they need Democrats again?

The GOP is a huge fraud. Forget "Trumps agenda", they have full control of Congress to pass any agends they like.

Yet they do NOTHING.
   697. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:04 PM (#5519935)
1) That is extraordinarily generous. Mexican judge, rapists (and some, I assume are good people), muslims on the rooftops in New Jersey, attacking somali refugees right before the election... I'm sure I'm missing a ton of examples. You can throw in his comments in the last week, too.
Again, that's shameless opportunism.

Hang on, WHO do you "assume are good people?"
2) No. Plenty of odious things are legal. For example, there are strong arguments that the most extreme version of the muslim ban, under which every muslim would be banned from entering - that is, Trump's original plan - would have been constitutional (in practice I don't think 5 judges on SCOTUS would be willing to sign up for that). It would not make it any less odious.
Except you brought up the travel ban as an example of authoritarianism, not odiousness.
   698. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:05 PM (#5519938)
The only thing that'll make (((JE))) completely disown Trump would be if he forced his grandchildren to convert to Paganism. Being an Islamophobe and a racist real estate developer isn't going to do it.

But at least it's nice to know that (((JE))) now doesn't consider Al Sharpton to be despicable, since he's comparing him to Trump. Quite a change of heart IIRC.
   699. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:08 PM (#5519941)
1) That is extraordinarily generous. Mexican judge, rapists (and some, I assume are good people), muslims on the rooftops in New Jersey, attacking somali refugees right before the election... I'm sure I'm missing a ton of examples. You can throw in his comments in the last week, too.


Again, that's shameless opportunism.

So is "shameless opportunism" the only words you'd use to describe Al Sharpton's crusades against Steven Pagones and the Korean grocers?
   700. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:10 PM (#5519943)
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