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Tuesday, August 22, 2017

OTP 22 August 2017: The myth of baseball’s depoliticalization

The cornerstone of a democratic republic is civic engagement in service of civic virtue, to be aware of fellow citizens’ struggles and to doggedly fight injustice and oppression. In today’s America, much of this engagement is missing, and it is viewed less as a responsibility held by every citizen than the task of few professional groups. But when it comes to Nazism, it should be the duty of every person, doubly so for white people, to vociferously denounce the individuals and the ideals themselves, to stamp them down in every area of society. The silence of white MLB players is thus telling of the way baseball players in the past have interacted with politics and its relationship to the larger degradation of American democracy.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:43 AM | 1771 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   701. Mans Best Friend Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:10 PM (#5519945)
the travel ban as an example of authoritarianism, not odiousness.

Didn't Obama implement the same thing?

It's hard to take criticims of Trump as dishonest when the entire system, including the press courtiers, is dishonest.
   702. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:11 PM (#5519946)
But at least it's nice to know that (((JE))) now doesn't consider Al Sharpton to be despicable, since he's comparing him to Trump. Quite a change of heart IIRC.
Is your recently embraced fourth-grade mentality so set in concrete already that you can't comprehend what I typed? What do you think ####### means?
   703. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:12 PM (#5519947)
So is "shameless opportunism" the only words you'd use to describe Al Sharpton's crusades against Steven Pagones and the Korean grocers?
He shamelessly exploited other people's bigoted feelings. How is that in any way exculpatory?
   704. tshipman Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:13 PM (#5519948)
He shamelessly exploited other people's bigoted feelings. How is that in any way exculpatory?


This attitude is why the Republican party is in the state it's in.

Can't bear to call Trump's actions racist, even though the comments about the "Mexican" judge were the textbook definition.
   705. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:14 PM (#5519949)
But at least it's nice to know that (((JE))) now doesn't consider Al Sharpton to be despicable, since he's comparing him to Trump. Quite a change of heart IIRC.

Is your recently embraced fourth-grade mentality so set in concrete already that you can't comprehend what I typed? What do you think ####### means?


Since "despicable" has more than 7 letters, I have no idea what you meant. You tell me

But just for the record: Is Donald Trump as despicable as Al Sharpton? Or is Al Sharpton as un-despicable as Donald Trump?
   706. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:14 PM (#5519950)
Can't bear to call Trump's actions racist, even though the comments about the "Mexican" judge were the textbook definition.
Understand the difference between racist used as an adjective versus a noun.

And since the Democrat Party has propped up Sharpton for decades, you are in no position to act high and mighty.
   707. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:17 PM (#5519951)
Since "despicable" has more than 7 letters, I have no idea what you meant. You tell me
It starts with an A and ends with an E.
   708. Count Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:17 PM (#5519953)
1) That is extraordinarily generous. Mexican judge, rapists (and some, I assume are good people), muslims on the rooftops in New Jersey, attacking somali refugees right before the election... I'm sure I'm missing a ton of examples. You can throw in his comments in the last week, too.
Again, that's shameless opportunism.


I don't get why you would assume he's just being an opportunist instead of a racist.

2) No. Plenty of odious things are legal. For example, there are strong arguments that the most extreme version of the muslim ban, under which every muslim would be banned from entering - that is, Trump's original plan - would have been constitutional (in practice I don't think 5 judges on SCOTUS would be willing to sign up for that). It would not make it any less odious.
Except you brought up the travel ban as an example of authoritarianism, not odiousness.


It's both authoritarian and odious - you framed it around odiousness!
   709. Morty Causa Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:18 PM (#5519955)
I'd say Sharpton and Trump are equally despicable as to character. One at this moment just has a role and a place in our political life where that character is wreaking maximum havoc on America.
   710. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:19 PM (#5519956)
It's both authoritarian and odious - you framed it around odiousness!
This is silly. If it were authoritarian, the Court would've said so. Instead, not one justice agreed with your viewpoint.
   711. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:20 PM (#5519958)
Since "despicable" has more than 7 letters, I have no idea what you meant. You tell me

It starts with an A and ends with an E.


Okay, so you think Trump's an a-hole. But why won't you just say (or admit) that he's despicable? What is it that holds you back?
   712. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:21 PM (#5519961)
I'd say Sharpton and Trump are equally despicable as to character. One at this moment just has a role and a place in our political life where that character is wreaking maximum havoc on America.

Morty gets it, (((JE))). Why don't you? It's not exactly a complicated issue.
   713. tshipman Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:22 PM (#5519963)
Morty gets it, (((JE))). Why don't you? It's not exactly a complicated issue.


(R) gives some people a blind spot.
   714. Mans Best Friend Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:22 PM (#5519964)
This attitude is why the Republican party is in the state it's in.

Dominating US govt at every level?
   715. Count Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:23 PM (#5519965)
710. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:19 PM (#5519956)
It's both authoritarian and odious - you framed it around odiousness!
This is silly. If it were authoritarian, the Court would've said so. Instead, not one justice agreed.


This is also wrong - plenty of legal things are authoritarian and in any event you seem to have misunderstood the Court's ruling. But this is getting pretty tangential because you said you agreed that he was personally authoritarian after your initial response.
   716. PreservedFish Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:30 PM (#5519972)
Kinda tired of Andy's endless "despicable" crusade. JE has made it clear that he thinks Trump is a buffoon. He still fixates on nonsense like the ESPN story, but we all prefer to criticize our enemies than our putative allies.
   717. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:34 PM (#5519975)
This week, Jon Stewart reminded everyone that Trump's first line of attack against Stewart four years ago was to "expose" his Jewier last name:

April 24, 2013:
I promise you that I'm much smarter than Jonathan Leibowitz - I mean Jon Stewart @TheDailyShow. Who, by the way, is totally overrated.

Three on May 3, 2013:
What’s funny about the name “F**kface Von Clownstick” -- it was not coined by Jon Leibowitz-- he stole it from some moron on twitter.

If Jon Stewart is so above it all & legit, why did he change his name from Jonathan Leibowitz? He should be proud of his heritage!

Jon Stewart @TheDailyShow is a total phony –he should cherish his past—not run from it.

May 10, 2013:
@caaataclysm Little Jon Stewart(?) Is a pussy, he would be hopeless in a debate with me!


What's the pro-Trump spin on this one? That Trump isn't personally anti-Semitic, but thinks it's a great attack strategy to make a Jew feel bad?
   718. tshipman Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:36 PM (#5519978)
What's the pro-Trump spin on this one? That Trump isn't personally anti-Semitic, but thinks it's a great attack strategy to make a Jew feel bad?


Jon Stewart isn't a real Jew because he's criticized Israel.
   719. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:46 PM (#5519981)
Trump is a sorry ass excuse for a human being. This can't be said enough.
   720. PreservedFish Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:54 PM (#5519986)
Little Jon Stewart(?) Is a #####


Still not half as misogynistic as Gloria Steinem.
   721. Morty Causa Posted: August 23, 2017 at 11:03 PM (#5519990)
Trump is a sorry ass excuse for a human being.

Every post dealing directly with Trump should begin with that as its introductory phrase. Trump is a sorry ass excuse for a human being followed by one of the following, "and ... moreover...furthermore...plus...although...even if...however...etc." This should remind the poster that whatever follows it is predicated on his being aware of that.
   722. TVerik, who wonders what the hell is "Ansky" Posted: August 23, 2017 at 11:04 PM (#5519991)
If Jon Stewart were a young, up-and-coming comic today, would he feel the need to change his last name? It seems like a relic from another era.
   723. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 23, 2017 at 11:10 PM (#5519992)
In case anyone missed it, rock & bottle throwing by some of the anti-Trump demonstrators in Phoenix last night brought on some tear gas in response, and one of the demonstrators, who just happened to have his gas mask on, thought it would be a good idea to kick a tear gas projectile back toward the police lines, which left him vulnerable to the follow-up. #Pepper Balls. Amusing.
   724. Nose army. Beef diaper? (CoB) Posted: August 23, 2017 at 11:18 PM (#5519994)
In case anyone missed it, rock & bottle throwing by some of the anti-Trump demonstrators in Phoenix last night brought on some tear gas in response, and one of the demonstrators, who just happened to have his gas mask on, thought it would be a good idea to kick a tear gas projectile back toward the police lines, which left him vulnerable to the follow-up. #Pepper Balls. Amusing.


#WearYourCup
   725. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 23, 2017 at 11:20 PM (#5519995)
Kinda tired of Andy's endless "despicable" crusade. JE has made it clear that he thinks Trump is a buffoon. He still fixates on nonsense like the ESPN story, but we all prefer to criticize our enemies than our putative allies.

Sorry if it tires you, but I've met JE enough times to know that he can't possibly believe that Trump is anything but despicable. Let's just say I'm hoping his better half will eventually win the day.

That's one thing. The other reason this gets under my skin is the way he has no hesitation to use the d-word to describe the thoroughly non-despicable Southern Poverty Law Center,** and even more absurdly, to describe a lone woman who shouted a 10 second question at John McCain as he was leaving the Senate during the recent Trumpcare debate, but before he'd cast the vote that killed it.

And yet after seeing and hearing (or reading about) Trump in action over the course of the last 45+ years, he still can't bring himself to use that simple word to describe a man whose thoroughly despicable character is testified to by virtually every non-die hard Trumpite who can pass a polygraph test.

Yeah, in a way I know I'm being a bit like Seinfeld when he kept demanding that the dry cleaner just admit that he shrunk his shirt, when the evidence of the shrinking was staring him right in the face. But you'll notice I don't bother badgering the True Trump Trolls about this, because unlike them, I think JE possesses a certain moral center that for reasons of political caution he's reluctant to display in public, possibly for fear of being outed to possible future employers.*** It may be of little consolation to him, but the badgering is as much a testament to my ultimate faith in his character as it is to my annoyance at his stubbornness.

** And spare me the BS about how they smear legitimate conservative groups. The racist words of those groups and their leaders speak quite eloquently for themselves, and need no further explanation. Charles Murray and Ayaan Hirsi Ali have legitimate gripes against the SPLC's interpretation of their words, but they're among the very rare exceptions.

*** I'm always open to hearing other explanations for his silence, but so far he's offered not a single one, in the face of repeated requests.
   726. Howie Menckel Posted: August 23, 2017 at 11:26 PM (#5519997)
Yeah, in a way I know I'm being a bit like Seinfeld when he kept demanding that the dry cleaner just admit that he shrunk his shirt,

I consider this progress

we get your point, and further polluting a feed that I often trail by a day or more just makes it more inconvenient. consider other viewers, please. some of us still work for a living
   727. Covfefe Posted: August 23, 2017 at 11:26 PM (#5519998)
Fwiw - who knows if it's true, but Stewart says the name change was over a serious falling out with his dad long ago when his mom and dad divorced (his middle name is Stuart).

Not that it matter to Trump or trumpkins, being thoroughly devoid of humanity that they are.
   728. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 23, 2017 at 11:32 PM (#5519999)
Same video as linked in #723, BUT SET TO MUSIC!

Other takes here.
   729. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Posted: August 23, 2017 at 11:52 PM (#5520003)
Fwiw - who knows if it's true, but Stewart says the name change was over a serious falling out with his dad long ago when his mom and dad divorced (his middle name is Stuart).

Not that it matter to Trump or trumpkins, being thoroughly devoid of humanity that they are.
Nor does it really matter -- even if the change was entirely to de-ethnicize, Jon Leibowitz thinking he'll have better luck getting auditions and gigs as Jon Stewart speaks ill of the 80s entertainment industry, not Jon Leibowitz/Stewart. Attacking him for it is bizarre.
   730. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Posted: August 23, 2017 at 11:57 PM (#5520006)
Andy, re-read 711 and tell me that isn't absurd/ridiculous/kinda funny. "Well you say he's an a-hole... but why won't you use this negative word???"
   731. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 24, 2017 at 12:01 AM (#5520007)
Trump said that they didn't have a permit. They did. How is that closer to being right than wrong?


They didn't have a permit for the park where the Nazis were.

Duh?
   732. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 24, 2017 at 12:05 AM (#5520008)
"It's bad to commit violence" is a pedantic point?

it's bad to smoke 4 packs of cigarettes a day. The time to bring that up is not during the eulogy for the deceased.


Bad analogy. Trump wasn't delivering a eulogy; he was talking about violence at an event. Since there were two groups committing violence, it was appropriate to talk about both groups.

See how it works?
   733. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 24, 2017 at 12:12 AM (#5520011)
In more detail, since David likes to play dumb:

Trump talked about permits twice. Both times it was clear he was talking about the left going to the park where the Nazis were and not having a permit for that park:

TRUMP: I will tell you something. I watched those very closely, much more closely than you people watched it. And you have -- you had a group on one side that was bad, and you had a group on the other side that was also very violent, and nobody wants to say that, but I'll say it right now. You had a group -- you had a group on the other side that came charging in without a permit, and they were very, very violent.

...

TRUMP: No, no. There were people in that rally, and I looked the night before. If you look, they were people protesting very quietly the taking down of the statue of Robert E. Lee. I'm sure in that group there were some bad ones. The following day, it looked like they had some rough, bad people -- neo-Nazis, white nationalists, whatever you want to call them. But you had a lot of people in that group that were there to innocently protest and very legally protest, because you know -- I don't know if you know, they had a permit. The other group didn't have a permit. So, I only tell you this, there are two sides to a story. I thought what took place was a horrible moment for our country, a horrible moment. But there are two sides to the country (sic). Does anybody have a final -- doesn't anybody have a -- you have an infrastructure…


"Came charging in without a permit." And "were there to innocently protest" the taking down of the Lee statue. Where were they protesting the Lee statue? At Emancipation Park. The park where the left did not have a permit for.
   734. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 24, 2017 at 12:21 AM (#5520014)
And since the Democrat Party


Sheeit. Now you gone done it. My lawd.
   735. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 24, 2017 at 12:25 AM (#5520015)
From the quoted comments in #733:
There were people in that rally, and I looked the night before. If you look, they were people protesting very quietly the taking down of the statue of Robert E. Lee.


The people Trump looked at the night before, protesting very quietly, and focused on the taking down of the statue of Robert E. Lee.

Aw, shove it, Ray. Your boy is drowning, glub glub glub, and you're too petulant to let go of his leg.

Or else, since this is what's going to happen, meticulously deconstruct Trump's inarticulate bear-baiting another thirty times, as if you actually meant what you were saying. While telling us who else you think "likes to play dumb."
   736. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 24, 2017 at 12:29 AM (#5520016)
It's 28 minutes into a new day and we have yet to hear Andy demand that Jason call Trump despicable.

Hell, I have no problem calling Trump despicable; his treatment of women alone would justify that, based on the accusers who came forward from his past to say that he sexually assaulted them.

If we set that aside -- not that it should be but just so we can explore other grounds for his despicableness as well -- we'd have to go topic by topic.
   737. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 24, 2017 at 12:33 AM (#5520017)
The people Trump looked at the night before, protesting very quietly, and focused on the taking down of the statue of Robert E. Lee.


That has nothing to do with the permit issue per se. Focus, Gonfalon.

And anyway I've agreed from the beginning that arguing that very fine people would protest amongst Nazis is ridiculous.
   738. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 24, 2017 at 01:14 AM (#5520020)
#737:
That has nothing to do with the permit issue per se. Focus, Gonfalon.


To hawk your version of what happened, you can don your "Fantastic Voyage" bodysuit and delve into the microcosm. But you're never going to excavate just the right syllable from your bobo's Turd Reich choke job.

You can wave a park permit in the air as effectually as Neville Chamberlain. But you're never going to demonstrate that Trump's Charlottesville critics misread him.
   739. Mans Best Friend Posted: August 24, 2017 at 01:58 AM (#5520031)
trumpkins, being thoroughly devoid of humanity that they are.


I believe the word youre looking for is Untermenschen.
   740. Chicago Joe Posted: August 24, 2017 at 03:12 AM (#5520032)
RDP: ok, so agreeing that his treatment of women brands him as despicable...

Item 2: contractors.
   741. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 24, 2017 at 04:41 AM (#5520035)
Since "despicable" has more than 7 letters, I have no idea what you meant. You tell me

It starts with an A and ends with an E.
Average? Awesome? Animate?
   742. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 24, 2017 at 04:56 AM (#5520036)
Trump said that they didn't have a permit. They did. How is that closer to being right than wrong?

They didn't have a permit for the park where the Nazis were.

Duh?
They also didn't have a permit to start a big bonfire in Times Square; I'm not sure how that makes it correct to say that they "didn't have a permit." Trump didn't say that they didn't have a permit for Emancipation Park; he said that they didn’t have a permit. ("Full stop," since I know you like that term.) Moreover, as was explained by the Charlottesville spokesperson, they didn't need a permit to be in Emancipation Park, so the implication (that the counterprotesters didn't have the right to be there, unlike the Nazis+FinePeople) was as false as the literal words.


EDIT: Re-checking the transcript, I think it was stronger than a mere implication; he expressly said that the Nazis were there to "very legally protest, because ... they had a permit. The other group didn't have a permit."
   743. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 24, 2017 at 05:17 AM (#5520037)
Christ-hating bigots rebuke His messenger on earth.

The High Holy Days are an opportunity for reflection and introspection. As the leaders of major denominations in American Jewish life, we have been deeply engaged in both, considering the events of the Jewish year that is ending and preparing spiritually for the year to come.

In so doing, we have thoughtfully and prayerfully considered whether to continue the practice in recent years of playing key roles in organizing a conference call for the President of the United States to bring High Holy Day greetings to American rabbis. We have concluded that President Trump’s statements during and after the tragic events in Charlottesville are so lacking in moral leadership and empathy for the victims of racial and religious hatred that we cannot organize such a call this year.


I bet Soros put them up to this. Go back to counting money and stay out of politics, you hook-nosed shysters!
   744. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 24, 2017 at 05:32 AM (#5520039)
In so doing, we have thoughtfully and prayerfully considered whether to continue the practice in recent years of playing key roles in organizing a conference call for the President of the United States to bring High Holy Day greetings to American rabbis. We have concluded that President Trump’s statements during and after the tragic events in Charlottesville are so lacking in moral leadership and empathy for the victims of racial and religious hatred that we cannot organize such a call this year.
...and yet, as David Bernstein pointed out, they had no qualms about meeting with Mahmoud Abbas earlier this year.
   745. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 24, 2017 at 06:01 AM (#5520040)
The nerve!

Edit: wait, who is "they"?
   746. bookbook Posted: August 24, 2017 at 06:27 AM (#5520041)
CCAR would probably be willing to meet with Trump and press on policy and the like. Taking the symbolic gesture of not organizing the symbolic new year's greeting from the President to the Jewish community is a different matter.

(While Sir Trump is in the process of burnishing his white nationalist bonafides, I can't imagine this was a difficult decision.)
   747. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 24, 2017 at 07:56 AM (#5520048)
Andy, re-read 711 and tell me that isn't absurd/ridiculous/kinda funny. "Well you say he's an a-hole... but why won't you use this negative word???"

I'm still waiting for the answer, and if you were a masochist and had followed this sub-sub-thread from its beginning a week or so ago, you'd understand my persistence. For all his many criticisms of Trump's specific actions, (((JE))) still places him on a higher human scale than this "despicable" woman, for reasons he refuses to explain.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hell, I have no problem calling Trump despicable; his treatment of women alone would justify that, based on the accusers who came forward from his past to say that he sexually assaulted them.

When even Ray gets it.....
   748. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 24, 2017 at 08:24 AM (#5520052)
Adventures in governance - Government shutdown chances rising by the day

Top White House and GOP leadership officials tell us the chances of a market-rattling government shutdown are rising by the day — and were even before Trump threatened at his raucous Phoenix rally on Tuesday night to use a shutdown as leverage to get funding for a border wall. Trump is dead serious about this fight, a senior administration source tells us, and the president's talk is starting to spook markets.


I hear that if the markets go down that means Trump becomes an even worse President. In any event the GOP has the House, Senate, and Presidency, so it will be quite the embarrassment if they can't manage to keep the government operating. Somehow, I am sure, it is Obama's fault.
   749. Greg K Posted: August 24, 2017 at 08:31 AM (#5520054)
I hear that if the markets go down that means Trump becomes an even worse President.

It's all the same to me, as long as the Ethereum market remains strong, my life savings will be ok!
   750. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 24, 2017 at 08:34 AM (#5520055)
So this is good but surprising news. Forecast Shows No Change In Senate
Larry Sabato’s Crystal Ball: “Right now we have four Toss-ups: two held by Republicans, and two held by Democrats. If one assumes a 50-50 split on the Toss-ups, and every other seat goes the way we currently rate it, there would be no net change in the Senate. Given the map, that would be a substantial Democratic accomplishment and a missed opportunity for Republicans. But the election’s a long way off and the potential exists for Republicans to make gains next year, too, even if the president’s approval rating doesn’t improve. That would be an unusual result historically, but history is merely a guide. It guarantees nothing, particularly on a Senate map where Democrats are stretched historically thin.”


In a normal year with a normal President I would expect substantial Democratic losses, perhaps even up to the 8 needed for a Filibuster proof majority. That does not seem to be in the cards though. Thanks Trump!
   751. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 24, 2017 at 08:36 AM (#5520056)
More good news - Federal judge throws out 'discriminatory' Texas voter ID law 'root and branch'

A federal judge delivered a decisive one-two punch Wednesday to Texas Republicans, issuing a permanent injunction on two Texas voter ID laws—the original 2011 law, SB14, and SB5, in which the Texas GOP tried to remedy the original law by loosening its restrictions.

U.S. District Judge Nelva Gonzales Ramos of Corpus Christi wrote:

...the only appropriate remedy for SB14's discriminatory purpose or discriminatory result is an injunction against enforcement of that law and SB5, which perpetuates SB14's discriminatory features. With respect to the VRA § 2 discriminatory purpose finding, elimination of SB14 "root and branch" is required, as the law has no legitimacy.
   752. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 24, 2017 at 08:38 AM (#5520057)
And yet ... more good news. Will Steve Bannon's war tear apart the Republican party?

The proverbial ink on Bannon’s resignation was barely dry when the media began reporting his plans to mount an insurrection against the “Republican establishment” in Congress and the “globalists” in the White House.

Bannon has now decamped to Breitbart to wage “war” – his words – on the forces in Washington that have prevented Trump from turning the Republican party into a populist movement of economic nationalism, and even on Trump if he strays from the path. A source close to Bannon analogized the coming struggle to the French Revolution.

Since Charlottesville, pundits and historians have wondered whether we’re headed for a civil war. With Bannon’s exit, it’s clear that we are. Only it won’t be between North and South or right and left. It will be within the Republican party itself.


I, for one, am not tired of all the winning, and won't be tired of it for quite some time.
   753. Covfefe Posted: August 24, 2017 at 08:45 AM (#5520059)
Trump vetoing a GOP spending bill because it doesn't pay for his stupid ####### wall that Mexico was supposed to pay for anyway, thus leading to a government shutdown would be perhaps the most glorious political development ever.

But hey, the Democrats are reasonable... we'll help you override.... if you toss in some goodies.
   754. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 24, 2017 at 08:48 AM (#5520061)
Yeah it sounds like Trump and the rest of the GOP leadership are not exactly on the same page ...

I requested that Mitch M & Paul R tie the Debt Ceiling legislation into the popular V.A. Bill (which just passed) for easy approval. They didn’t do it so now we have a big deal with Dems holding them up (as usual) on Debt Ceiling approval. Could have been so easy — now a mess!


   755. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 24, 2017 at 09:31 AM (#5520071)
Government shutdown? Is Trump trying to get me to like him?

(Too little, too late, dude.)
   756. Covfefe Posted: August 24, 2017 at 09:38 AM (#5520075)
Government shutdown? Is Trump trying to get me to like him?

(Too little, too late, dude.)


He's being realistic... first he has to move you from strongly disapprove to somewhat disapprove.
   757. The Good Face Posted: August 24, 2017 at 09:53 AM (#5520080)
You asked, why the left is succeeding right now? For example saving ACA despite a GOP House, Senate, and Presidency that has few limits (other than self imposed) on their power.


As usual, you're exactly wrong. I didn't ask anything about "right now" and I haven't said a word about ACA in years.

And in order to be successful at enacting change, especially through legislation, Presidential leadership is necessary. We are seeing what happens without such leadership.


So narrowminded. Policy is downstream of culture, which is the point of my little debate with Jason; the GOP abdicated the culture to the left, while Trump has picked up the sword and is fighting again. We have perfectly good legislation in place dealing with, for example, immigration. We simply don't enforce those laws. Passing laws is meaningless if there is no willingness to enforce policy.

I warned you last summer and fall, but you were convinced all it would take would be Trump to get elected and everything you ever desired would happen.


I was? I suppose just making stuff up is easier than engaging with arguments. Citation needed. As is so often the case, you're arguing with the voices in your head, certainly not with me.
   758. The Good Face Posted: August 24, 2017 at 10:03 AM (#5520085)
Stop dodging, it's a simple question; what good are your "successes" if they can't prevent your enemies from winning, repeatedly?

Dude, it's a bullshit question. Winning Senate, House, state, and local elections are way different from triumphing in a single battle in the culture war.


But you didn't limit it to a single battle. You said that their winning begat winning. And what's the point of all these "successes" by the GOP if the left keeps winning, decade after decade? What's the GOP and all its "successes" good for?
   759. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 24, 2017 at 10:06 AM (#5520089)
So narrowminded. Policy is downstream of culture, which is the point of my little debate with Jason; the GOP abdicated the culture to the left, while Trump has picked up the sword and is fighting again. We have perfectly good legislation in place dealing with, for example, immigration. We simply don't enforce those laws. Passing laws is meaningless if there is no willingness to enforce policy.


Now you are just waving your hands around and shouting down a hole. Seriously dude YOU were the one that said there were all these leftist victories and the GOP wasn't doing anything about it. You don't like my "left victories"? Fine with me, you brought it up, so regale us, what are these victories? What exactly should the GOP have done about them?

Note: We are talking recently, since we are talking about the recent state of the GOP having the House, Senate, and Presidency. You can't blame Jason and the GOPe for squandering their successful elections and control of the nation when they don't actually ... you know .. control the nation. Right now, for the past few months, they are in fact in control.

So let's hear it big guy, what are the left victories that a "better" GOP would have won instead?
   760. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 24, 2017 at 10:09 AM (#5520091)
But you didn't limit it to a single battle. You said that their winning begat winning. And what's the point of all these "successes" by the GOP if the left keeps winning, decade after decade? What's the GOP and all its "successes" good for?


By the way the unintentional humor of this little lecture from the same guy who repeatedly suggests that a massive part of the never ending victory of Trump is that his election means Clinton lost. I guess merely preventing the other side from winning only counts when it is his guy winning, in all other instances TGF needs solid accomplishments to seal the deal. Sadly the list of Trump solid "accomplishments" is really short (Executive orders, Judicial appointments, .... um ... er ... not being Hillary Clinton!)
   761. Covfefe Posted: August 24, 2017 at 10:12 AM (#5520094)
No, no -- TGF is onto something... the only way to bring about the Great Cultural Victory against the Left is to defeat the GOP first. I approve of this strategy.
   762. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 24, 2017 at 10:13 AM (#5520095)
So let's hear it big guy, what are the left victories that a "better" GOP would have won instead?

Good Face's GOP would have stormed the Statue of Liberty and removed the plaque with Emma Lazurus's poem.
   763. Mans Best Friend Posted: August 24, 2017 at 10:16 AM (#5520097)
But hey, the Democrats are reasonable... we'll help you override.... if you toss in some goodies.

Trump v Uniparty
   764. The Good Face Posted: August 24, 2017 at 10:22 AM (#5520101)
Good Face's GOP would have stormed the Statue of Liberty and removed the plaque with Emma Lazurus's poem.


We should melt the plaque down and turn it into bullets for the Border Patrol.
   765. PepTech Posted: August 24, 2017 at 10:23 AM (#5520103)
That has nothing to do with the permit issue per se. Focus, Gonfalon.
Yeah, Gonfalon, focus. Despite not caring about (at last count) 8,347,256 things, Ray has demonstrated that he cares deeply about Trump being "closer to being right than wrong" on the Great Permit Debate, this despite naming Trump as a "ridiculous" "despicable" "liar" (separately!) in the last 100 posts. Just concede already!

Ray has a busy agenda coming up; he needs to clear John Wilkes Booth from those reviews that smeared his acting credentials, and then defend the Empire of Japan on the matter of the timing of the Declaration of War. The unhinged breathlessly await his efforts.
   766. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 24, 2017 at 10:29 AM (#5520109)
No, no -- TGF is onto something... the only way to bring about the Great Cultural Victory against the Left is to defeat the GOP first. I approve of this strategy.


TGF has repeatedly said that he would love for the GOP to be destroyed (mostly from before Trump became leader of the GOP, admittedly). So yeah, you, he, and I* are all on the same page.

Step 1: Destroy the GOP
Step 2: ????
Step 3: Profit!

* And, seemingly GOP President Trump. Politics ... bedfellows ... all that.
   767. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 24, 2017 at 10:30 AM (#5520110)
So narrowminded. Policy is downstream of culture, which is the point of my little debate with Jason; the GOP abdicated the culture to the left, while Trump has picked up the sword and is fighting again. We have perfectly good legislation in place dealing with, for example, immigration. We simply don't enforce those laws. Passing laws is meaningless if there is no willingness to enforce policy.
This is incoherent, because you're jumping around wildly between legislation and enforcement of the law (which you have termed policy) and culture. If you want to argue (and I think you do) that getting elected and passing legislation is insufficient, that's fine. But then why are you blaming the people who got elected and passed legislation? They did their job. It's not within their bailiwick to change the culture. For that you'll have to point fingers at the populace. Which has decisively rejected Trumpism.

And not clear why you're celebrating Trump on that score. Ranting and raving by a politician doesn't set the culture. His one clear unequivocal victory -- Gorsuch -- was an establishment victory, that every single one of those 17 candidates would've done.

Moreover, while it's certainly true that passing legislation is insufficient if there isn't will to enforce those laws, it's also true that passing legislation is necessary; as Trump keeps finding out when he goes to court, presidents can't act unilaterally. Unless he first gets the law on his side, all the "will" in the world is worthless. (Unless, of course, one envisions a dictator sweeping away the legislature and courts and ruling by decree. It's clear Trump thinks that way -- he has, as has been well-documented, praised even the worst dictators for their willingness to act lawlessly -- but so far the establishment holds; we're not Venezuela.)
   768. Covfefe Posted: August 24, 2017 at 10:31 AM (#5520111)
As we get down to the World against Perros and TGF (with Clapper serving in a non-combat role and Ray as legal counsel), I kind of like the world's chances.
   769. Covfefe Posted: August 24, 2017 at 10:33 AM (#5520114)
Unless, of course, one envisions a dictator sweeping away the legislature and courts and ruling by decree. It's clear Trump thinks that way -- he has, as has been well-documented, praised even the worst dictators for their willingness to act lawlessly -- but so far the establishment holds; we're not Venezuela.


This is where TGF screams GET OUT OF HEAD, ELITIST MIND READER!
   770. Mans Best Friend Posted: August 24, 2017 at 10:34 AM (#5520115)
I, for one, am not tired of all the winning, and won't be tired of it for quite some time

Blood Blood Blood

Blood and Fire!
   771. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 24, 2017 at 10:35 AM (#5520117)
As we get down to the World against Perros and TGF (with Clapper serving in a non-combat role and Ray as legal counsel), I kind of like the world's chances.


Somewhere* SBB sobs, because he has been forgotten, rendered irrelevant at what should be his finest hour.

* Not a court of law certainly, at least not as a lawyer.
   772. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 24, 2017 at 10:37 AM (#5520120)
Good Face's GOP would have stormed the Statue of Liberty and removed the plaque with Emma Lazurus's poem.

We should melt the plaque down and turn it into bullets for the Border Patrol.


Don't ever change, whoever or whatever you are.
   773. Greg K Posted: August 24, 2017 at 10:39 AM (#5520124)
Blood Blood Blood

Blood and Fire!

Not to go all Maester Luwin on you, but I'm pretty sure it's "Fire and Blood".
   774. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 24, 2017 at 10:42 AM (#5520127)
No, no -- TGF is onto something... the only way to bring about the Great Cultural Victory against the Left is to defeat the GOP first. I approve of this strategy.

TGF has repeatedly said that he would love for the GOP to be destroyed (mostly from before Trump became leader of the GOP, admittedly). So yeah, you, he, and I* are all on the same page.
It's not like TGF is saying something unique here; all extremists think that way. The left (by that I don't mean Pelosi; I mean the left left, the sort of people who supported Bernie Sanders but booed him when he endorsed Hillary, the sort of people who think that Obama was really a Republican) think that the real problem they need to address is all the centrist Democrats out there. First, they need to purge so-called "neo-liberals" from the Democratic Party, and then they'll cruise to victory over the GOP.

(To be fair, this approach may work in a multiparty system, but not in our FPTP two-party system.)


ETA: To be fair to the Trumpistas, many of them -- but apparently not TGF -- are better at math than the left, so they realize that they do need the GOPe in order to beat the Dems; they just want the establishment to shut up and fall in line behind them.
   775. The Good Face Posted: August 24, 2017 at 10:42 AM (#5520128)
Seriously dude YOU were the one that said there were all these leftist victories and the GOP wasn't doing anything about it. You don't like my "left victories"? Fine with me, you brought it up, so regale us, what are these victories? What exactly should the GOP have done about them?


Actually Jason brought up the left's victories. I merely asked him what good was the GOP and all of its "success" if it couldn't stop the left from achieving victory repeatedly. I suspect we're coming to the end game of that conversation, which will be something along the lines of, "The left would have gone even crazier without us!" Which is a perfect summation of the GOP when you get down to it. "Vote GOP; it could be worse!"

By the way the unintentional humor of this little lecture from the same guy who repeatedly suggests that a massive part of the never ending victory of Trump is that his election means Clinton lost. I guess merely preventing the other side from winning only counts when it is his guy winning, in all other instances TGF needs solid accomplishments to seal the deal.


What is it you used to say about not telling other people what they believe? Although to be fair you've long since demonstrated you never really believed it. Anyway, my posting record is freely accessible here, so anybody interested can see that you're lying here. I said well over a year ago that if Trump were hit by a bus tomorrow his candidacy would have been an immense success because he demonstrated that there was a significant constituency for actual conservative positions. Nothing has changed that belief on my part.
   776. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 24, 2017 at 10:43 AM (#5520130)
Don't ever change, whoever or whatever you are.


Bronze would make for pretty poor bullets actually* so sure, I endorse TGF and his legion** storming the Statue of Liberty and in a work of civil disobedience vandalizing it, making bullets out of the plaque, and getting the border patrol to use them.

To be clear I am not in favor of anyone breaking the law in this manner, but honestly I see very little downside to the inevitable arrests and other backlash. And hey, bronze plaques are pretty easy to replace honestly.

* Not an expert, but a basic idea about the materials involved leads me to that informed opinion.
** More, less, or exactly the same as the legion of KKK members? I merely present, the reader decides.
   777. Greg K Posted: August 24, 2017 at 10:44 AM (#5520132)
It's not like TGF is saying something unique here; all extremists think that way. The left (by that I don't mean Pelosi; I mean the left left, the sort of people who supported Bernie Sanders but booed him when he endorsed Hillary, the sort of people who think that Obama was really a Republican) think that the real problem they need to address is all the centrist Democrats out there. First, they need to purge so-called "neo-liberals" from the Democratic Party, and then they'll cruise to victory over the GOP.

(To be fair, this approach may work in a multiparty system, but not in our FPTP two-party system.)

It worked great in the French Revolution!
   778. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: August 24, 2017 at 10:46 AM (#5520134)
Kinda tired of Andy's endless "despicable" crusade.


Just about to type this. As ####### tiresome as it is downright silly.
   779. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: August 24, 2017 at 10:47 AM (#5520135)
Besides, I think I prefer "loathsome" to "despicable." I hereby call on everyone to brand Trump as loathsome, & if they don't I'm going to keep demanding that they do so, day after day.
   780. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 24, 2017 at 10:48 AM (#5520137)
demonstrated that there was a significant constituency for actual conservative positions
Dude, you can't both argue that the KKK/Nazi/white supremacists are so insignificant in number that it's crazy for anyone to worry about them, while simultaneously arguing that they're a significant constituency.
   781. The Good Face Posted: August 24, 2017 at 10:52 AM (#5520140)
It's not like TGF is saying something unique here; all extremists think that way.


Except I don't think the GOP needs to be destroyed, far easier to infiltrate and subsume it. Parties change, and that's what we're seeing happen. The GOPe holds very little mindshare among conservatives and right wingers under the age of 35.
   782. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 24, 2017 at 10:52 AM (#5520141)
Actually Jason brought up the left's victories.


So you don't agree regarding such victories? You sure are writing many many weasel words in an effort to never talk about the basics of the argument. What is your evaluation of the state of left/right in the last 8 months? Who is winning and why? Who is to blame? I have my opinion, but I am more interested in yours.

If you disagree with Jason on the assumptions of the argument it seems silly that you are arguing about the answer. So let's dispose of the assumptions of the discussion first.

What is it you used to say about not telling other people what they believe? Although to be fair you've long since demonstrated you never really believed it. Anyway, my posting record is freely accessible here, so anybody interested can see that you're lying here. I said well over a year ago that if Trump were hit by a bus tomorrow his candidacy would have been an immense success because he demonstrated that there was a significant constituency for actual conservative positions. Nothing has changed that belief on my part.


Nothing I sad was a lie, but if you want to dispute what I said that is your right. Perhaps I misunderstood your many posts suggesting ... what were the words you used nearly every time? Oh yes ... "When you are in a hole, stop digging". And then you would inevitably discuss how it didn't matter what Trump did so long as he "stopped digging", unlike what Hillary would have done.

I love the idea of you showing me a post I have misunderstood though, and I will - of course - happily concede that you know your mind better than I, I can only read the words you write.

However, I think (and said so back when) that Trump getting elected is a terrible thing for your lost cause. Sunlight is the best disinfectant, and while others decry that your sort has been emboldened I think they have merely been brought out into the light. They were there before Trump and they will be there (diminished) after Trump.
   783. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 24, 2017 at 10:59 AM (#5520148)
Trump said that they didn't have a permit. They did. How is that closer to being right than wrong?

They didn't have a permit for the park where the Nazis were.

Duh?


They also didn't have a permit to start a big bonfire in Times Square; I'm not sure how that makes it correct to say that they "didn't have a permit." Trump didn't say that they didn't have a permit for Emancipation Park; he said that they didn’t have a permit. ("Full stop," since I know you like that term.) Moreover, as was explained by the Charlottesville spokesperson, they didn't need a permit to be in Emancipation Park, so the implication (that the counterprotesters didn't have the right to be there, unlike the Nazis+FinePeople) was as false as the literal words.

EDIT: Re-checking the transcript, I think it was stronger than a mere implication; he expressly said that the Nazis were there to "very legally protest, because ... they had a permit. The other group didn't have a permit."


Really now, you don't _always_ have to make frivolous arguments rather than conceding a point that makes Trump come out somewhere above the devil. The left did not have a permit for where the Nazis were protesting. Period. And full stop.

The left had permits for two parks where the protest was not. They might as well have had permits for Times Square. Or on the moon.
   784. The Good Face Posted: August 24, 2017 at 11:01 AM (#5520149)
Dude, you can't both argue that the KKK/Nazi/white supremacists are so insignificant in number that it's crazy for anyone to worry about them, while simultaneously arguing that they're a significant constituency.


The KKK et al. are insignificant. Conservatism is not the KKK et al. You used to be smarter and better at this stuff; you're just mouthing lefty platitudes at this point.
   785. PepTech Posted: August 24, 2017 at 11:04 AM (#5520150)
Looks like David needs to focus, too...
   786. Covfefe Posted: August 24, 2017 at 11:06 AM (#5520151)
Kinda tired of Andy's endless "despicable" crusade.

Just about to type this. As ####### tiresome as it is downright silly.


FWIW, it's not just an-in-a-vacuum meme --

It dates back many, many months ago to demands for lefties to denounce "despicable" Linda Sarsour - and the counter from Andy was more or less "is Trump despicable"... I was peripherally involved in that little squabble, too - but Andy's got more stamina than I :-).

   787. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 24, 2017 at 11:06 AM (#5520152)
Conservatism is not the KKK et al.
Oh, I agree with that. But your idea of conservatism is.
   788. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: August 24, 2017 at 11:08 AM (#5520153)
FWIW, it's not just an-in-a-vacuum meme --

It dates back many, many months ago to demands for lefties to denounce "despicable" Linda Sarsour - and the counter from Andy was more or less "is Trump despicable"... I was peripherally involved in that little squabble, too - but Andy's got more stamina than I :-).


Recurring bits that require background, footnotes, callbacks of months duration, etc. are probably best retired, IMHO. It's pretty obvious in this case that Andy has rung up a big "concession accepted" by implication.

Consider this an opportunity for dialogue and education.
   789. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 24, 2017 at 11:14 AM (#5520160)
Except I don't think the GOP needs to be destroyed, far easier to infiltrate and subsume it. Parties change, and that's what we're seeing happen. The GOPe holds very little mindshare among conservatives and right wingers under the age of 35.
Setting aside the ironic use of the word "mind" when talking about Trump supporters, are you delusional? Trump's supporters are middle-aged poorly-educated people. Younger conservatives, like younger Americans generally, strongly reject Trump.


EDIT: I would note a bigger problem with your thesis, which is that we haven't seen any evidence that Trumpism is a movement rather than a personality cult. (We saw what happened when Nehlan ran against Paul Ryan, though of course that's just one data point.)
   790. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 24, 2017 at 11:15 AM (#5520161)
Looks like David needs to focus, too...


Didn't you agree with me last night on the permits issue? Was it you who declared me the winner of the Great Permit Debate?
   791. PepTech Posted: August 24, 2017 at 11:15 AM (#5520162)
Recurring bits that require background, footnotes, callbacks of months duration, etc. are probably best retired, IMHO.
I'm fine with Andy's crusade, but I wish Albert Belle would give it a rest.
   792. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: August 24, 2017 at 11:16 AM (#5520163)
I'm fine with Andy's crusade, but I wish Albert Belle would give it a rest.


And Mike Crudale.
   793. PepTech Posted: August 24, 2017 at 11:20 AM (#5520165)
Didn't you agree with me last night on the permits issue?
Absolutely, Ray, you have the Permit issue completely nailed. I don't understand why everyone hasn't bowed to your wisdom here, I mean, you went to considerable effort to research the issue.

It *could* be because they're subtly teasing you about getting the correct positioning of the deck chairs on the Titanic, but hey, when you're right, you're right.
   794. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: August 24, 2017 at 11:23 AM (#5520169)
It *could* be because they're subtly teasing you about getting the correct positioning of the deck chairs on the Titanic, but hey, when you're right, you're right.


Pretty cruel, not to mention pointless, to tease someone of Ray's ... uh ... characteristics, no?
   795. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: August 24, 2017 at 11:26 AM (#5520171)
748:

Somehow, I am sure, it is Obama's fault.


Well, sure. If he had just built the damn wall, we wouldn't be in this spot!
   796. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 24, 2017 at 11:34 AM (#5520178)
To elaborate on my 787, American conservatism has for at least the last seventy years comprised three pillars (for good or ill): the religious right, economic conservatism, and anti-communism/anti-terrorism.

Your conservatism rejects them all, in favor of a sole focus on keeping the darkies out where possible, and down where not. You've expressly rejected -- sneered at -- the idea of making the economy grow if it includes letting Those People in the country. You've pooh-poohed the rubes on the religious right who worry about gay rights and such. You've denounced the idea of policing the world. All there is is white nationalism.
   797. Covfefe Posted: August 24, 2017 at 11:36 AM (#5520180)
Well, sure. If he had just built the damn wall, we wouldn't be in this spot!


Ought to be noted that deportations are actually down under Trump -- and before the usual crew decides to play silly gotcha (be it of the no anti-Latino, no anti-Latino, Obama anti-Latino! or Trump not so bad variety) --

A few baselines ought to be noted --

- Deportations are down, but arrests are way up
- As various posters have noted, economic conditions and particularly, agricultural employment conditions that predate Trump have actually caused lots former migrant border crossing to go in the other direction
- Obama ICE, of course, put the focus on arrests and deportations of social menaces while largely looking the other way on immigrants that may well have entered illegally, but largely settled down into productive members of society. Trump has put the focus on arrests, period. Hence - it's a hella lot easier to speed deportations of the 'worst' than it is deportations of Jose, who crossed the border when he was 15, has since married, had a few kids, and maybe opened a diner.

   798. Mans Best Friend Posted: August 24, 2017 at 11:50 AM (#5520186)
As we get down to the World against Perros and TGF (with Clapper serving in a non-combat role and Ray as legal counsel), I kind of like the world's chances.

I sincerely agreed with you yday about Trump's divisiveness and inquired about the proper response to combat it, but obviously you and Mouse see Trump as a minor blip on the radar screen of world progress to be laughed at, his followers scorned.

IOW, more divisiveness. Youre seemingly incapable of coming to terms with the fact there's no going back to your bubble (or gated community, Canada, etc). The very progress you celebrate has sparked a technological fire that will ultimately consume our world, if through no other mechanism than global warming as world population increases by 50 percent this century.

There is no magic fix for immutable human nature, short of the obvious.
   799. The Good Face Posted: August 24, 2017 at 11:51 AM (#5520187)
To elaborate on my 787, American conservatism has for at least the last seventy years comprised three pillars (for good or ill): the religious right, economic conservatism, and anti-communism/anti-terrorism.


American "conservatism" since the collapse of the Soviet Union has been comprised of three pillars; low taxes, cheap labor, and overseas imperialism. There is nothing inherently conservative about any of those pillars.

You've expressly rejected -- sneered at -- the idea of making the economy grow if it includes letting Those People in the country.


I mock people who reify the economy (like you). The economy exists to serve the citizenry, not vice versa. If "making the economy grow" requires admitting the entire population of the 3rd world into America (and boy would that make the economy grow!), then it's worth looking at the tradeoffs such actions would involve and the effects they would have on citizens. But you sneer at the very idea of citizenship, believing (incorrectly) that you're an island unto yourself.

You've pooh-poohed the rubes on the religious right who worry about gay rights and such.


I've certainly not poo-poohed their worries. I've long spoken out against the "Bake me a cake, bigot!" brigades. I've steadfastly supported freedom of association, yet another thing you've sneered at.

You've denounced the idea of policing the world.


So policing the world is now part of your "libertarian" philosophy. I believe the rest of the world should have the right to determine their own path rather than have USG force it on them with guns. Like most libertarians, you only care about YOUR freedom, about the guns pointed at YOU.

All there is is white nationalism.


There you go again, dropping into lazy leftist mode, engaging in name calling in lieu of argument. There's nothing "white nationalist" about anything I've advocated here.
   800. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: August 24, 2017 at 11:54 AM (#5520190)
Shall we flip?
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