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Monday, January 22, 2018

OTP 22 January 2018: What the Baseball Hall of Fame can teach us about elections

Would ballot-box behavior change if people knew more precisely how their fellow citizens planned to vote?

It’s a question that still haunts Democrats as they continue staring daggers at their friends who went third party in November 2016. But it’s also an experiment being carried out in real time by the Baseball Writers Association of America as members prepare to elect at least three and as many as five retired greats to the Hall of Fame later this

The association’s complicated voting rules work like this: Eligible players need 75 percent of the vote to win election. Those receiving less than 5 percent get kicked off the ballot; those between rejection and enshrinement can stay on the ballot for up to 10 years. And voters can support up to 10 candidates.

 

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 22, 2018 at 08:44 AM | 4563 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hall of fame, politics

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   701. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:40 AM (#5612222)
Since I (and many others) often note (or mock!) the advanced age of the Democrats House leadership, in the interests of fairness I should also mention the Dems efforts at bringing in new blood: soon-to-be 77-year old stroke-survivor Donna Shalala is weighing a run for a Miami-based House seat.
   702. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:47 AM (#5612224)
tshipman, #668:
Interesting that we're simultaneously hearing about:
*Sessions' interview with Mueller (last week);
*and also Comey's interview with Mueller (in December);
*as well as Trump's attempted firing of FBI Deputy Director (and corroborating Comey witness) Andrew McCabe, which led to Director Wray's threat to resign if he did so.
Come(d)y is timing.


Explains why all Jason and Clapper want to talk about are judges and Devin Nunes's memo.



You know who else doesn't care about Robert Mueller's questioning of Comey and Sessions? Nor Trump continuing to subvert the FBI even while under investigation for obstruction? Or Trump's imminent testimony under oath, or Rick Gates' plea deal, or even the Pennsylvania ethics Congressman explaining his payoff, today's mass school shooting, and Kleenex firing 5,500 workers? The Drudge Report doesn't care. In their estimation, the day's top seven headlines are, in order:
GOODWIN: Evidence suggests massive scandal brewing at FBI...
WHISTLEBLOWER: 'SECRET SOCIETY' HELD OFF-SITE MEETINGS...
MYSTERY: 5 MONTHS OF MISSING MESSAGES...
AGENT TEXTED ABOUT DELETING TEXTS...
'Jaw-Dropping' revelations...
Attorney General Orders Probe...
COLLISION COURSE: CONGRESS TIGHTENING NOOSE ON INVESTIGATION
The Drudge Report only has a limited amount of room to squeeze in its usual 50 or 60 or 65 headlines, depending on the day. (Today's total is 46.)

After those seven most important and most newsy headlines, you won't read anything about what Mueller or Trump are actually doing. But you CAN read stories about a Grandma Clown retiring from the circus, a rowdy fight at a comedy club, a Hollywood sex club that exists, a Taco Bell that burned down, where Oprah went today, the NBA's "soap opera," a vicious pit bull, the possible genetic "end of men," and the legal status of rapper Nelly's penis (which will have to save us from the end of men).
   703. DJS, the Digital Dandy Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:47 AM (#5612225)
Crossover note: The evil sheriff in Muse's Knights of Cydonia video was also the first Night King in Game of Thrones.
   704. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 24, 2018 at 03:04 AM (#5612227)
A long, compelling and harrowing article from the NY Times Magazine: How Arafat Eluded Israel’s Assassination Machine:
The radar on the F-15s picked up the blip of the transport plane, a DHC-5 Buffalo, 370 miles into Mediterranean airspace. The fighters closed rapidly. They read the tail number, saw the blue-and-brown markings. They were positive they’d found the right plane. ...[Israel's] fighters had everything they were supposed to have: a positive visual identification, a clear shot in open skies over empty ocean. The go-ahead to shoot down the plane and the passenger it was carrying had come from the minister of defense, Ariel Sharon.

...At 5:23 p.m., another report came in to Canary. Sources from Mossad and AMAN said the man on the plane was Fathi Arafat, Yasir’s look-alike younger brother, a pediatrician and the founder of the Palestinian Red Crescent Society. With him were 30 wounded Palestinian children, survivors of the massacre that the Lebanese Maronite Christian Phalange militia had perpetrated in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Beirut a month before. Fathi Arafat was escorting them to Cairo for medical treatment.

...Since World War II, Israel has used assassination and targeted-killing more than any other country in the West, in many cases endangering the lives of civilians. But I also discovered a long history of profound — and often rancorous — internal debates over how the state should be preserved. Can a nation use the methods of terrorism? Can it harm innocent civilians in the process? What are the costs? ...“For more than 30 years,” [said an Israeli official], “I have been waiting for someone to come and ask me about this story.”



...The belief that assassinating the P.L.O. leader would solve the entire Palestinian problem would be the predominant opinion in Israeli intelligence for many years to come.

...Right after the Six Day War... Israeli soldiers stormed the house where [Arafat] was based, minutes too late. They found his food still warm on the table. Some plans were more elaborate. Inspired by the movie “The Manchurian Candidate,” the Israelis spent three months in 1968 trying to transform a Palestinian prisoner into a programmed killer. Within five hours of being released to carry out his mission, he had turned himself in to the local police, handed over his pistol and explained that Israeli intelligence had tried to brainwash him into killing Arafat.



...Between 1979 and early 1983...[a single Israeli special ops group] killed hundreds of people. [The] head of the I.D.F.’s Northern Command staff said, “The aim was to cause chaos among the Palestinians and Syrians in Lebanon, without leaving an Israeli fingerprint, to give them the feeling that they were constantly under attack and to instill them with a sense of insecurity.”



...Sharon...gave the green light for Ben-Gal and Dagan to carry out an operation that, if it succeeded, would change the course of Middle East history. Operation Olympia called for Israeli agents to plant a massive set of bombs under a V.I.P. dais under construction in a Beirut stadium where, on Jan. 1, 1982, the P.L.O. was going to celebrate the anniversary of its first operation against Israel. With the push of one button, they would achieve the destruction of the entire Palestinian leadership.

Everything was ready, including powerful explosive charges already secreted beneath the dais, as well as three vehicles loaded with explosives that were supposed to be parked on the streets around the stadium; these were to detonate about a minute after the dais exploded, when the panic was at its height and the survivors of the initial blast were trying to flee the scene. The resulting death and destruction were expected to be “of unprecedented proportions, even in terms of Lebanon,” in the words of a very senior officer of the Northern Command. But a group of worried AMAN officers, as well as the deputy defense minister, went to Begin and demanded that he order Dagan to call it off. “You can’t just kill a whole stadium,” one officer recalled telling Begin. “The whole world will be after us.” Begin shut down the operation.



...When Mossad reported that Arafat was flying more commercial flights, with the P.L.O. often buying the entire first-class or business-class cabin for him and his aides, Sharon decided that such flights would be legitimate targets. The plane would have to be shot down over the open sea, far from the coast, so that it would take investigators a long time to find the wreckage and establish whether it had been hit by a missile or had crashed because of engine failure. Deep water would be preferable, to make recovery even more difficult. (Oded Shamir, Sharon’s adjutant at the time, says that all the targeted planes were private aircraft. However, at least three officers present at these incidents have told me that some of the targets were commercial airliners.)

...From November 1982 to early January 1983, [F-16 and F-15] planes scrambled at least five times to intercept and destroy airliners believed to be carrying Arafat, only to be called back soon after takeoff. [Brigadier General Amos] Gilboa expressed his sharp opposition to these operations time and again. “It was clear to me that the air force would execute it as well as could be,” he said, “but I had additional responsibility.” It was Gilboa’s job to evaluate the political, military and economic implications of each operation. “I told chief of staff Eitan that it could ruin the state internationally if it were known that we downed a civilian airliner.”

In each instance, air-force commanders intentionally obstructed the operation, refusing to obey orders that they believed to be manifestly illegal. “When we received the order,” Sella said, “I went to see Eitan. I told him: ‘Chief of staff, we do not intend to carry this out. It simply will not happen. I understand that the minister of defense is dominant here. No one dares to stand up to him, and therefore we will make it technically impossible.’”
   705. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 24, 2018 at 07:52 AM (#5612235)
Your American BrownGreenshirts at work:

Border Patrol accused of targeting aid group that filmed agents dumping water left for migrants

Last Wednesday, a nonprofit group that provides humanitarian aid to migrants in the Arizona desert released a lengthy report alleging Border Patrol agents were intentionally destroying supplies left for migrants in the desert, the group said, to “condemn border crossers to suffering, death and disappearance.”

What received wider attention, however, was a video that the Tucson-based aid group, No More Deaths, also distributed with its report. The footage, taken between 2010 and 2017, showed Border Patrol agents kicking over water jugs that had been left in the desert. In one clip, a male agent sneers at the person filming him, demanding to know whom the water is for, as he empties a gallon bottle of water onto the ground.

Here's the video. Only the best people!

But since they're only trying to kill illegal immigrants, who cares? What part of 'illegal' do you not understand?
   706. BDC Posted: January 24, 2018 at 07:59 AM (#5612236)
soon-to-be 77-year old stroke-survivor Donna Shalala is weighing a run for a Miami-based House seat

As we keep saying, as long as soon-to-be 74-year-old lobotomy survivor Donald Trump is weighing a re-election bid for President, these wisecracks do not carry much ethos :)
   707. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 24, 2018 at 08:03 AM (#5612237)
So we can't just be happy about the milestone. We have to defame the country in a drive-by while recognizing the milestone.


LOL “defame the country”. Aw snowflake, life is hard!

How DO you people go through life in such an insufferable fashion?


Yes Little Lord, it’s everyone else who’s insufferable.
   708. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: January 24, 2018 at 08:41 AM (#5612241)
You can still give Duckworth those adorable guaranimals PJs as baby shower gift, Ray... regardless of what anyone says.
   709. BrianBrianson Posted: January 24, 2018 at 09:04 AM (#5612248)
Given that senators have to be 30, and have an average age of 61, it's perhaps not surprising that no senator has previously gotten pregnant.

Duckworth herself is 49, at which point 90-some percent of women are infertile - only 0.004% of births are to mothers over 50. So even if the senate had been naught but women since the revolution, there wouldn't have been dozens and dozens of pregnant senators.

I had been supposing she was the most likely VP pick for the (D) ticket - I suppose 2020 is far enough in the future that this probably changes nothing?
   710. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: January 24, 2018 at 09:19 AM (#5612253)
Given that senators have to be 30, and have an average age of 61, it's perhaps not surprising that no senator has previously gotten pregnant.

Duckworth herself is 49, at which point 90-some percent of women are infertile - only 0.004% of births are to mothers over 50. So even if the senate had been naught but women since the revolution, there wouldn't have been dozens and dozens of pregnant senators.


True - but House age is 25.... and if news reports are correct - only 10 sitting reps have given birth (I think Duckworth had her first child while in the House, so I believe she's among those 10).

Looking at our favorite model; Norway -- it looks like the Storting (Norway's unicameral legislature) is 41% female (in addition to their female PM) -- or more than double the US rate of females in Congress.1

And as discussed during shitholegate -- even for Europe, Norway's family leave policies are extremely family friendly....

Ray's sad aside, I don't think it's unreasonable to suspect a correlation.
   711. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: January 24, 2018 at 09:23 AM (#5612254)
BTW - without the google, I'll bet no one will ever guess which country has the greatest proportion of women in their national legislative body...
   712. BDC Posted: January 24, 2018 at 09:23 AM (#5612255)
I had been supposing she was the most likely VP pick for the (D) ticket - I suppose 2020 is far enough in the future that this probably changes nothing?

Well, Oprah would have to register to vote somewhere other than Illinois …

I can't see that it changes anything. Other national candidates have had younger children, and not just men, which shouldn't make a difference anymore; but even then, Sarah Palin had an infant son during the 2008 campaign.
   713. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 24, 2018 at 09:27 AM (#5612256)
BTW - without the google, I'll bet no one will ever guess which country has the greatest proportion of women in their national legislative body..
Themyscira?
   714. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: January 24, 2018 at 09:28 AM (#5612260)
How does Chuck Schumer manage to keep his grandma glasses at the tip of his nose without them falling over the cliff?


Excellent question, Omega Dancing Monkey Eddie Deezen meets Alfred E Nueman.

I bet it's a lot easier than how your hero Donald Trump keeps Melania from banging the entire secret service.

How DO you people go through life in such an insufferable fashion?



Oh, I don't know. Like this?
   715. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: January 24, 2018 at 09:30 AM (#5612261)
BTW - without the google, I'll bet no one will ever guess which country has the greatest proportion of women in their national legislative body..

Themyscira?


N/A - as a theocratic monarchy, it has no legislature or parliament.
   716. BrianBrianson Posted: January 24, 2018 at 09:31 AM (#5612262)
The minimum age for the house is 25. The average age is 57.

I'll bet no one will ever guess which country has the greatest proportion of women in their national legislative body...


Given you say this ... I'll guess the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

[Edit - I subsequently googled. No., they're in the lower half, slightly behind the US.]
   717. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: January 24, 2018 at 09:34 AM (#5612264)
Given you say this ... I'll guess the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.


Nope - #121, at 16.3% -- a few spots behind #115 South Korea (17%)... FWIW, the US is #99 (19.4%).
   718. stig-tossled,hornswoggled gef the talking mongoose Posted: January 24, 2018 at 09:50 AM (#5612268)
I'll bet no one will ever guess which country has the greatest proportion of women in their national legislative body...


Not Vatican City, I'll bet.
   719. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: January 24, 2018 at 09:51 AM (#5612270)
I'll bet no one will ever guess which country has the greatest proportion of women in their national legislative body...


Amazonia
   720. manchestermets Posted: January 24, 2018 at 09:51 AM (#5612271)
Oh, I don't know. Like this?


I've sat through repetition after repetition of this calumny, holding my peace, but I can bite my tongue no more, I have to say something.

Chimps aren't monkeys, they're apes.
   721. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: January 24, 2018 at 09:59 AM (#5612276)
It's Rwanda, believe it or not -- at 61.3%.

It's an interesting top 10 -- quite a mix of nations.... all three Scandinavian countries (Sweden at #5, Finland at at #7, Norway at #10) are in the top 10. As sop to Scandinavian expansionists from a prior discussion - Iceland is tied at #17 and Denmark is #22.
   722. stig-tossled,hornswoggled gef the talking mongoose Posted: January 24, 2018 at 10:04 AM (#5612279)
I've sat through repetition after repetition of this calumny, holding my peace, but I can bite my tongue no more, I have to say something.

Chimps aren't monkeys, they're apes.


I blame Devo for the confusion --

All together now, God made man!
But he used the monkey to do it
Apes in the plan
We're all here to prove it
I can walk like an ape, talk like an ape, I can do what monkey do
God made man
But a monkey supplied the glue
   723. Greg K Posted: January 24, 2018 at 10:05 AM (#5612280)
BTW - without the google, I'll bet no one will ever guess which country has the greatest proportion of women in their national legislative body...

I only know this because our department office has a poster/map showing the proportion of women in various legislatures around the world.

Of course, that's assuming the information is up to date, it's been up on the wall for at least three years.

EDIT: I see in #721 that it has not changed.
   724. DCA Posted: January 24, 2018 at 10:09 AM (#5612281)
Not at all surprised that it's Rwanda. I was actually going to post that as a guess but your answer showed when the page refreshed after logging in.

I don't actually know much about Rwanda, but women's participation in everything goes up when all the men kill each other, so I was going to guess some war-ravaged hellhole. Small or medium sized (proportional outliers generally aren't large nations). Not Islamist. Rwanda ticked off all the boxes.
   725. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: January 24, 2018 at 10:15 AM (#5612283)
Chimps aren't monkeys, they're apes.


And if a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his booty when he flied.
   726. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 24, 2018 at 10:17 AM (#5612284)
I don't actually know much about Rwanda, but women's participation in everything goes up when all the men kill each other, so I was going to guess some war-ravaged hellhole.


I am reminded of this ... No Time for Bullies: Baboons Retool Their Culture

In a study appearing today in the journal PloS Biology (online at www.plosbiology.org), researchers describe the drastic temperamental and tonal shift that occurred in a troop of 62 baboons when its most belligerent members vanished from the scene. The victims were all dominant adult males that had been strong and snarly enough to fight with a neighboring baboon troop over the spoils at a tourist lodge garbage dump, and were exposed there to meat tainted with bovine tuberculosis, which soon killed them. Left behind in the troop, designated the Forest Troop, were the 50 percent of males that had been too subordinate to try dump brawling, as well as all the females and their young. With that change in demographics came a cultural swing toward pacifism, a relaxing of the usually parlous baboon hierarchy, and a willingness to use affection and mutual grooming rather than threats, swipes and bites to foster a patriotic spirit.

Remarkably, the Forest Troop has maintained its genial style over two decades, even though the male survivors of the epidemic have since died or disappeared and been replaced by males from the outside. (As is the case for most primates, baboon females spend their lives in their natal home, while the males leave at puberty to seek their fortunes elsewhere.) The persistence of communal comity suggests that the resident baboons must somehow be instructing the immigrants in the unusual customs of the tribe.


Note: According to the internet Baboons are not apes. FWIW.

Catarrhines have nostrils that point downward, do not have prehensile tails, and have flat finger- and toenails. Catarrhines are further split into the Old World monkeys (Cercopithecoidea) and the apes (Hominoidea). Of the primates listed, only the baboons are Cercopithecoids; all the others are in the family Hominoidea.

Cercopithecoids like baboons have tails that are not prehensile. If you see some primate that looks like an ape, but it has a tail, walks on all fours with a level back, and has a long, doglike face, it's a baboon.


Link
   727. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: January 24, 2018 at 10:19 AM (#5612285)
   728. Lassus Posted: January 24, 2018 at 10:22 AM (#5612288)
I blame Devo for the confusion --
Or Oingo Boingo -

Animals came from miles around
So tired of walking so close toe the ground
They needed a chance, that's what they said
Life is better walking on two legs
But they were in for a big surprise
'Cause they didn't know the law!

We walk on two legs not on four
To walk on four legs breaks the law
What happens when we break the law?
What happens when the rules aren't fair?
We all know here we go from there
   729. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: January 24, 2018 at 10:26 AM (#5612291)

Note: According to the internet Baboons are not apes.
In that case...
   730. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: January 24, 2018 at 10:29 AM (#5612292)
So wow...

#secretsociety is apparently really going to be a thing in Trumpkin land.

When someone (YR?) posted the screencap of a a tweet from a GOP Rep about it, I assumed it was a nutty thing he had been convinced to delete to avoid being labeled nutty... but now Ron Johnson and Fox News are talking Illuminati.

Just wow.

Trumpism may need to be added to the DSM sooner than previously believed.
   731. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: January 24, 2018 at 10:33 AM (#5612296)
You can smell the desperation.
   732. manchestermets Posted: January 24, 2018 at 10:33 AM (#5612297)
Better?


Perfect.
   733. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 24, 2018 at 10:36 AM (#5612300)

Curious George is described a a "good little monkey," but he doesn't have a tail. Monkeys have tails.
   734. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: January 24, 2018 at 10:44 AM (#5612309)
Please stop with the monkey talk...

I am on a call discussing an expansion of an internal search API we call 'monkey' (because it can swing from tree to tree in a broad ontological stack of taxonomies with great dexterity - get it?) and it is getting difficult to stifle giggles.
   735. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: January 24, 2018 at 10:44 AM (#5612310)
Curious George is described a a "good little monkey," but he doesn't have a tail. Monkeys have tails.


Howard Cosell called that WR for the Redskins a "tough little monkey". Artistic license.

(Here comes doofus Ray to claim Cosell was racist.)
   736. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 24, 2018 at 10:46 AM (#5612311)
So wow...

#secretsociety is apparently really going to be a thing in Trumpkin land.

When someone (YR?) posted the screencap of a a tweet from a GOP Rep about it, I assumed it was a nutty thing he had been convinced to delete to avoid being labeled nutty... but now Ron Johnson and Fox News are talking Illuminati.

Just wow.

Trumpism may need to be added to the DSM sooner than previously believed.


Just wow indeed, although it's no different from what JE/Clapper/Ray/and I assume SBB have been spouting around here.

And given that Lou Dobbs was Joe Arpaio almost before Joe Arpaio was Joe Arpaio, should anyone be surprised that he'd be ranting about a Deep State Coup against the most anti-immigration president in history?
   737. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 24, 2018 at 10:46 AM (#5612312)
Curious George Turns 75, But Is He A Monkey Or An Ape?

In order to reconcile George as a monkey in today's scientific parlance, he would have to be a Barbary macaque. However, this species does not look particularly like the way George is illustrated, and it also tends to live in mountainous regions of northern Africa, not jungles.

Given the details of the original Curious George book -- his living in trees in Africa, his lack of a tail, his coloring and depiction, his opposable big toes and his inquisitive nature -- I like to think of him as a juvenile chimpanzee.

So I hold that Curious George is an ape, but I'll give the Reys a pass on using the catch-all term "monkey" because it would have been easily understood in the time and place they originally wrote the story of this adorable but trouble-making primate.
   738. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 24, 2018 at 10:48 AM (#5612314)
Curious George is described a a "good little monkey," but he doesn't have a tail.

That's because Curious George knew too much, and the Deep State had to send him a message.
   739. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: January 24, 2018 at 10:52 AM (#5612316)
   740. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: January 24, 2018 at 10:53 AM (#5612318)
this adorable but trouble-making primate.


The only reason he's seen as "adorable" is because he's always smiling. A person can have the purest of intentions but if he/she isn't smiling we're not as quick to trust that person as we'll trust a person lying through a smile.

I had a professor who said that smiling was an aggressive act, because when we smile, we bare our teeth. He told us this with a big smile on his face. I never trusted him, after that.
   741. Ray (CTL) Posted: January 24, 2018 at 10:53 AM (#5612319)
Just wow indeed, although it's no different from what JE/Clapper/Ray/and I assume SBB have been spouting around here.


? I haven't said a word about #secretsociety, and when I commented on #releasethememo I told Jason he'd very likely be *disappointed* in what's there when it's ultimately released.

Nor have I claimed that the 50K (or however many it is) deleted texts is part of some vast left wing conspiracy.

I'm certainly interested in what the memo says and where the investigation will lead but I've not sold out on the Hannity narrative.

(Not sure where the Arpaio pivot comes from. It comes out of the blue but in any event I've called him scum as well.)
   742. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 24, 2018 at 10:58 AM (#5612326)
Just wow indeed, although it's no different from what JE/Clapper/Ray/and I assume SBB have been spouting around here.

? I haven't said a word about #secretsociety, and when I commented on #releasethememo I told Jason he'd very likely be disappointed in what's there when it's ultimately released.


I must admit the post you respond to is off base. There are huge differences between the four posters listed. There is some similarity, but spouting conspiracy nonsense is not one of them.

JE keeps his conspiracy nonsense limited to Israel and Iran related things, Clapper gives talking points and passive aggressively "bears watching", Ray (You) don't tend to traffic in such nonsense that I remember, and SBB is of course a font of lunacy in a wide variety of flavors and colors (like Quarks!).
   743. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 24, 2018 at 10:59 AM (#5612328)
Just wow indeed, although it's no different from what JE/Clapper/Ray/and I assume SBB have been spouting around here.

? I haven't said a word about #secretsociety, and when I commented on #releasethememo I told Jason he'd very likely be disappointed in what's there when it's ultimately released.


You've been far more interested in denigrating the FBI's investigation of Trump than in condemning Trump's Dobbsian rhetoric against the FBI.

(Not sure where the Arpaio pivot comes from. It comes out of the blue but in any event I've called him scum as well.)

That comment was about Dobbs and Arpaio, not you.
   744. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:01 AM (#5612330)
JE keeps his conspiracy nonsense limited to Israel and Iran related things, Clapper gives talking points and passive aggressively "bears watching", Ray (You) don't tend to traffic in such nonsense that I remember, and SBB is of course a font of lunacy in a wide variety of flavors and colors (like Quarks!).


I think this undersells JE's slide into Trumpism... especially with SBB on an OTP diet, he's now the OTP's finest purveyor of deep state coups against Trump. He generally tries to mask it in whattaboutHillary, but it's clearly present.
   745. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:12 AM (#5612341)
I must admit the post you respond to is off base. There are huge differences between the four posters listed. There is some similarity, but spouting conspiracy nonsense is not one of them.

Yes, there are differences, but they share one major talking point in common: They're far more concerned about "scandals" within the FBI and the Mueller team than they are with the substance of what Trump and his associates have done. They may not use the word "conspiracy", but the substance of their complaints is scarcely different than the conspiracy mongers.

JE claims to care about Russian interference in the election, but he directs his concerns almost exclusively towards Obama and the Clinton campaign, and treats virtually every revelation about Trump & Co. as a nothingburger, complete with a side order of LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLs.

Clapper just parrots whatever the Trump talking point of the day happens to be, a proverbial grammophone programed by the RNC.

See #743 for my response to Ray.

As for Stretchy Band, unless people have been deliberately not copying his less insane comments, he's up there with Good Face in his Deep State obsessions.
   746. -- Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:13 AM (#5612342)
Even Peter Strzok knew there "was no big there there" w/r/t RUSSIA! RUSSIA!

And with that text, the farce is now pretty much complete.
   747. Ray (CTL) Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:16 AM (#5612350)
Yes, there are differences, but they share one major talking point in common: They're far more concerned about "scandals" within the FBI and the Mueller team than they are with the substance of what Trump and his associates have done.


What substance? The Russia collusion thing is a giant goose egg at this point, in the process of being laid.


   748. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:20 AM (#5612353)
Yes, there are differences, but they share one major talking point in common: They're far more concerned about "scandals" within the FBI and the Mueller team than they are with the substance of what Trump and his associates have done.

What substance? The Russia collusion thing is a giant goose egg at this point, in the process of being laid.


Thanks for confirming what I just wrote.
   749. Ray (CTL) Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:22 AM (#5612355)
Concession accepted.
   750. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:23 AM (#5612357)

I think this undersells JE's slide into Trumpism... especially with SBB on an OTP diet, he's now the OTP's finest purveyor of deep state coups against Trump.


Yeah, so should we flip flop Juan and SBB in the Dancing Monkey ratings? I don't know, SBB has been more active the past couple of days. Lets monitor further.
   751. The Good Face Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:25 AM (#5612359)
"Deep State" is simply a shorter way of writing "Powerful political/governmental institutions that are subject to limited or no control by elected officials". Why some people want to suddenly pretend such institutions no longer exist is an exercise left to the reader.
   752. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:30 AM (#5612361)
Analysis: Watch the Polls, Ignore the Post-Shutdown Chatter

Over the past few weeks, members of Congress, journalists and television hosts agreed on one thing: The looming government shutdown was a huge deal. Then, after the shutdown ended, those same people pontificated about who won and who lost, as well as about liberal dissatisfaction with the deal to open the government. Here is my advice: ignore most or all of this chatter.

Instead, focus on two new national polls, one from NBC News and the Wall Street Journal, and the other from The Washington Post and ABC News.

They are far more helpful in understanding the political landscape and how the brief shutdown will affect our politics.


Polls you say?

But two very recent national surveys that show how voters see the country — and how those perceptions affect future political confrontations — are worth your attention.

Most people use their existing impressions about the parties and the nation’s leaders as a lens through which to view and understand events.

Since the president’s numbers are so poor, every political confrontation in which he is involved contains risk for his party.

Trump’s job approval and personal ratings in the Jan. 13-17 NBC News/Wall Street Journal survey were almost identical. Only 39 percent of respondents approved of his job performance and only 36 percent had a positive view him.

On the other hand, 57 percent of respondents disapproved of his job performance and 56 percent disapproved of him personally.

Even worse for Republicans, 51 percent of those surveyed strongly disapproved of the president’s performance and 48 percent viewed him “very” negatively.


More at the link.
   753. -- Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:32 AM (#5612363)
It's now virtually certain that the FBI (*) engaged in significant abuses of power directly aimed at influencing and interfering with the 2016 civilian presidential election. Many questions are left to be answered, primarily around other participants within DOJ and the White House. It could be, as with the torture engaged in by the Bush Jr administration, that the cold hard truth and the ramifications thereof are too tough to handle -- even for more independent types. Obviously, the hard-core TDS crowd will never honestly confront it and will likely be engaged in their Lost Cause nutty Russian conspiracies for years or decades to come.

Interesting times.

(*) And probably other elements of the national security state.
   754. BrianBrianson Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:32 AM (#5612364)
"Deep State" is simply a shorter way of writing "Powerful political/governmental institutions that are subject to limited or no control by elected officials".


Given that people are using it to mean "Rule of Law, rather than Rule of Caesar", you can see why people are skeptical.
   755. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:34 AM (#5612365)
As for Stretchy Band, unless people have been deliberately not copying his less insane comments, he's up there with Good Face in his Deep State obsessions.


Heh. No, stretchy is still nuts. He is posting less and more people are ignoring his bizarre rants, so you are seeing less of him.
   756. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:34 AM (#5612367)
"Deep State" is simply a shorter way of writing "Powerful political/governmental institutions that are subject to limited or no control by elected officials".
LOL.
   757. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:36 AM (#5612369)
"Deep State" is simply a shorter way of writing "Powerful political/governmental institutions that are subject to limited or no control by elected officials". Why some people want to suddenly pretend such institutions no longer exist is an exercise left to the reader.

It's not the description or even the term that signifies the sign of obsession. It's the way that the loons seem to equate every Deep State official with James Angleton or J. Edgar Hoover.
   758. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:38 AM (#5612370)
It's now virtually certain
"Deep State" is simply a
The Russia collusion thing is a
the farce is now
the advanced age of the Democrats
Just on this page!
   759. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:39 AM (#5612372)
It's now virtually certain that the FBI (*) engaged in significant abuses of power directly aimed at influencing and interfering with the 2016 civilian presidential election. Many questions are left to be answered, primarily around other participants within DOJ and the White House. It could be, as with the torture engaged in by the Bush Jr administration, that the cold hard truth and the ramifications thereof are too tough to handle -- even for more independent types. Obviously, the hard-core TDS crowd will never honestly confront it and will likely be engaged in their Lost Cause nutty Russian conspiracies for years or decades to come.
It amazes me that, knowing SBB is a pure troll who lies every time he speaks, his insincere troll posts still manage to irritate me.
   760. BDC Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:39 AM (#5612374)
On the whole, I'm less terrified of Deep Staters who work boringly to indict you than I am of those who simply wax you. But I guess I should remember Vince Foster and Seth Rich?
   761. Ray (CTL) Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:40 AM (#5612375)
It's obviously too early to tell exactly what we've stumbled onto with the Strzok stuff and the like but it's the utter lack of interest in the issue from the left that gives the game away and shows their hopeless bias and hackdom.

Whatever this memo ultimately reveals or doesn't reveal, one who is plugged into this stuff daily as folks here are should be at least interested in what the memo has to say.

But there's basically nothing the memo could say, and nothing Peter Strzok could ever say in a text, that would interest the left if it were favorable to the pro-Trump narrative. There's no depth the left won't stoop to to pretend that there's nothing to see here.
   762. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:43 AM (#5612379)
It amazes me that, knowing SBB is a pure troll who lies every time he speaks, his insincere troll posts still manage to irritate me.


You need to read them in your mind with a funny voice. Archer works as does The Tick (any version). There are other possibilities as well, I have toyed with Howard Cosell voice, and I admit it amused me a great deal.
   763. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:45 AM (#5612382)
There's no depth the left won't stoop to to pretend that there's nothing to see here.
There's no depth the right won't stoop to to insist that there's nothing to see here.
Both are equally true.
   764. Lassus Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:45 AM (#5612383)
It's obviously too early to tell exactly what we've stumbled onto with the Strzok stuff and the like but it's the utter lack of interest in the issue from the left that gives the game away and shows their hopeless bias and hackdom.

Ray, indicating somewhat feverishly that OTHER people having no interest in something shows a problem.

Irony, Ray.

FYI.
   765. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:46 AM (#5612384)
It's obviously too early to tell exactly what we've stumbled onto with the Strzok stuff ...


but I am going to use it to baselessly attack Democrats anyway. Because that's how I roll.

Seriously, dude, if there is something specific that comes out, that the evil Left ignores, mention it; but don't say "It is too early, but still I know how evil the left is!" That's just dumb.
   766. stig-tossled,hornswoggled gef the talking mongoose Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:47 AM (#5612387)
But I guess I should remember Vince Foster and Seth Rich?


When the news of Foster's death came over the wire while I was night city editor in Little Rock, I insisted that it belonged on Page 1; the page designer didn't see it as any big deal & disagreed (in fairness, Foster didn't really have any sort of public profile in his native Little Rock at that time). I managed to prevail.

What I'm wondering is, does that make me a lackey of the Deep State or its enemy?
   767. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:50 AM (#5612391)
"Deep State" is simply a shorter way of writing "Powerful political/governmental institutions that are subject to limited or no control by elected officials". Why some people want to suddenly pretend such institutions no longer exist is an exercise left to the reader.


I don't think anyone is pretending that -- I think it's more rolling of the eyes about dark cabals and secret societies.

I mean, let's be frank - or if the Trumpkins can set aside their Trumpkin blinders for a moment, please do that...

We have more than ample data to show that one of the key dividers between Trumpkins and non-Trumpkins is education -- and I think it goes without saying that one generally doesn't become a part of the FBI/CIA/NSA/whatever without some relatively significant degree of education (whether it's in formal degree form or not, but I'm betting the former dominates pretty extensively).

So.... it surprises you that a lot of essentially white collar types with significant education (whether formal or informal) on such matters think poorly of Trump? Welcome to reality. This isn't a pool of people who get their knowledge base from whatever Fox & Friends talked about that morning.

Simultaneously, you always overlook Trump himself in these discussions... as in, pretend he's some ethereal hypothetical rather than an actual person who has said and done many things. And even you folks have all, on occasion, agreed that he's said/done plenty of things that are hilariously ignorant, even deleterious.

The "case" boils down to being willfully obtuse - shock, SHOCK! - that people inherently predisposed to various levels of dismay, disgust, and such towards Trump actually talked about their dismay/disgust regarding Trump.

By all means, should you dig up some evidence that evidence was planted, falsified, or otherwise cooked up to serve as an anti-Trump removal predicate.... but see above - just based on the things actually confirmed via Trump's own words, you're absolutely nutty if you think federal law enforcement and intelligence apparatuses should be putting nothing-to-see-here blinders on.

   768. BDC Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:52 AM (#5612392)
does that make me a lackey of the Deep State or its enemy?

Depends. Have you been killed in the last ten minutes?
   769. Ray (CTL) Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:52 AM (#5612393)
We have more than ample data to show that one of the key dividers between Trumpkins and non-Trumpkins is education -


Interesting comment in light of the Democrats' targeted demographics.
   770. Ray (CTL) Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:54 AM (#5612395)
So Trump managed to be better than Democrats at targeting stupid people? Is that your complaint? Because clearly you can't deny that Democrats target people without educations. Both sides do. It's traditionally one of the mantles upon which Democrats have claimed virtue. Historically the Democrats have been better at targeting stupid people. I guess the one time they weren't they're left angry at the world, baying at the moon.
   771. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:54 AM (#5612396)
Whatever this memo ultimately reveals or doesn't reveal, one who is plugged into this stuff daily as folks here are should be at least interested in what the memo has to say.


What the memo will "reveal" is Devin Nunes' cherry-picked Trumpism defense. I'm sure it will be quite compelling... to Trumpkins... if Adam Schiff hasn't authored an anti-Trump memo just as compelling from the other direction, then shame on him.
   772. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:55 AM (#5612398)
You need to read them in your mind with a funny voice
That's a great technique for earworms, as well. The next time something insidious is stuck in your brain, like Total Eclipse of the Heart or Tubthumping or Viva la Vida or even The Lion Sleeps Tonight, just imagine them as stylized by Bob Dylan. They'll go away.

Note: This methodology fails for Bob Dylan songs.
   773. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:56 AM (#5612401)
We have more than ample data to show that one of the key dividers between Trumpkins and non-Trumpkins is education -



Interesting comment in light of the Democrats' targeted demographics.


It's not a comment, it's a recitation of previously discussed analysis.

Would you like me to present you with some recent approve/disapprove poll crosstabs as well?
   774. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:56 AM (#5612402)
Interesting comment in light of the Democrats' targeted demographics.


Targeted? I guess in your mind parties redraft various groups every, what, twelve years, and in this cycle you think Democrats drafted uneducated people? What on Earth are you talking about?
   775. Ray (CTL) Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:59 AM (#5612404)
Targeted? I guess in your mind parties redraft various groups every, what, twelve years, and in this cycle you think Democrats drafted uneducated people? What on Earth are you talking about?


I'm talking about this sudden disgust and appall at the notion of Trump having won an election on the backs of stupid people. That's the Democrats' stock in trade. Why they're suddenly claiming that this is untoward or reveals a Problem is curious.
   776. BrianBrianson Posted: January 24, 2018 at 11:59 AM (#5612405)
It's not even really smart vs. stupid, but the Southern Strategy did push educated people from being largely Republicans to largely Democrats.
   777. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:01 PM (#5612406)
So Trump managed to be better than Democrats at targeting stupid people? Is that your complaint? Because clearly you can't deny that Democrats target people without educations. Both sides do. Historically the Democrats have been better at it. I guess the one time they weren't they're left angry at the world, baying at the moon.


Actually, they haven't -- Pre-Trump numbers...

Regardless, though - it makes not a scintilla of difference to me... It's less the politics I care about in this instance than it is the governance.

   778. dlf Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:01 PM (#5612407)
So Trump managed to be better than Democrats at targeting stupid people? Is that your complaint? Because clearly you can't deny that Democrats target people without educations. Both sides do.


Setting aside any attempt at a gotcha or "complaint", clearly DJT won because he significantly increased the GOP share of votes from people with lower educational levels. For example, see this 538 article. I'm not sure why that would be up for debate.

Edit: damn, Zonk, you even linked to the same article. Do they have Coke in the northern climes? Or is it spelled with an extraneous 'u' somewhere in the word?
   779. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:02 PM (#5612408)
I'm talking about this sudden disgust and appall at the notion of Trump having won an election on the backs of stupid people. That's the Democrats' stock in trade. Why they're suddenly claiming that this is untoward or reveals a Problem is curious.


You keep saying this, but I'm the only one presenting data -- and it shows the opposite of what you claim.
   780. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:05 PM (#5612412)
We have more than ample data to show that one of the key dividers between Trumpkins and non-Trumpkins is education -

Interesting comment in light of the Democrats' targeted demographics.
Lyin' Ray is not interested in facts, only in spouting narrative. Although it depends on how one defines "Trumpkins"; if it's merely Trump voters the evidence is pretty clear. If it's those that have intellectually chosen to vigorously support/defend/enable the man, it's likely wiring that's at fault, not a lack of education.

And of course, both parties "target" as many voters as possible, across all spectrums and axes. The original comment referred not to targeting, but results.

Edit: Cukes all around :)
   781. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:06 PM (#5612413)
I'm talking about this sudden disgust and appall at the notion of Trump having won an election


See, this part is 100% true. But then you went and ruined it with a heaping dump-truck of wrong, as you are wont to do.
   782. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:06 PM (#5612414)
You keep saying this, but I'm the only one presenting data -- and it shows the opposite of what you claim.


In Ray's defense, he isn't that bright.
   783. zenbitz Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:08 PM (#5612417)
@759 that's on you, David. Personally, when he starts spouting off on some weird rumor or theory, I know immediately that I cam disregard it.
   784. stig-tossled,hornswoggled gef the talking mongoose Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:08 PM (#5612420)
Depends. Have you been killed in the last ten minutes?


Not yet. I'm leaving the base for lunch in about an hour, though.
   785. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:11 PM (#5612422)
Here's a better breakdown of the education gap going back further (to 1992)....

We could probably cherrypick to a draw on how things "used to be" - ignoring proportionality, I guess.... but the trend is clear, it is unmistakable and it predates Trump. Trump put the trend on steroids.

BTW - since I have your attention, maybe this is another good time to discuss "merit-based" immigration... you know, where "merit" is largely a function of education :-)
   786. Shredder Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:12 PM (#5612423)
interfering with the 2016 civilian presidential election.
Was there a non-civilian Presidential election that I missed? Do members of the military hold their own Presidential elections? Is there a second President that I don't even know about? Man, they left out some pretty big stuff in my Poli-Sci classes.

A sure sign of stupidity is the insertion of meaningless adjectives into sentences in order to make the author sound like a person who isn't stupid.
   787. Ray (CTL) Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:15 PM (#5612425)
Traditionally Democrats have proclaimed themselves virtuous as the leader of people who can't pay taxes, support themselves and their families, are habitually out of work, etc. People who can't support themselves are generally less educated than people who can. So what's the complaint here, exactly? Is it now illegitimate to target stupid people to win an election, because Trump did it?
   788. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:17 PM (#5612428)
Edit: damn, Zonk, you even linked to the same article. Do they have Coke in the northern climes? Or is it spelled with an extraneous 'u' somewhere in the word?


I know Quebecers prefer Pepsi...
   789. -- Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:17 PM (#5612429)
It amazes me that, knowing SBB is a pure troll who lies every time he speaks, his insincere troll posts still manage to irritate me.


It's right there in the post to which you responded -- there are some truths here that people are going to be very hesitant to face.(*) Though there are others, irritation is often a cover mechanism.

(*) As they were with the Bush Jr. torture regime.
   790. BDC Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:19 PM (#5612434)
Traditionally Democrats have proclaimed themselves virtuous as the leader of people who can't pay taxes, support themselves and their families, are habitually out of work, etc. People who can't support themselves are generally less educated than people who can. So what's the complaint here, exactly? Is it now illegitimate to target stupid people to win an election, because Trump did it?

Traditionally Democrats have assumed that most poor people aren't any stupider than donor-class types. Now that the donor classes have elected an actual moron, the assumption appears proven :)
   791. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:19 PM (#5612435)
Traditionally Democrats have proclaimed themselves virtuous as the leader of people who can't pay taxes, support themselves and their families, are habitually out of work, etc. People who can't support themselves are generally less educated than people who can. So what's the complaint here, exactly? Is it now illegitimate to target stupid people to win an election, because Trump did it?


No, the specific complaint here is that you're just making up things to support your preconceived biases, notions, and slapdash ill-conceived whinery.
   792. Ray (CTL) Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:22 PM (#5612438)
Traditionally Democrats have assumed that most poor people aren't any stupider than donor-class types.


A bizarre assumption.

IQ and income are related.
   793. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:23 PM (#5612440)
It's not surprising people made a binary choice for (R) in the last election. The appalling part is that enough people have become *so* stupid they continue to support a racist POTUS, with a vigor approaching the reflex.
   794. BDC Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:25 PM (#5612441)
IQ and income are related

Always a comfortable tale for those with good incomes to tell themselves.
   795. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:25 PM (#5612443)
IQ and income are related.


Sigh. First you go on your weird rant, and now it has veered to where you are - as is typical of you - conflating "stupider" with "IQ". I assume you are pretending intelligence and IQ are perfectly synonymous? Or don't you care about details, you just want to rant?
   796. Ray (CTL) Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:26 PM (#5612444)
BDC, are you not a professor? And a card carrying member of the Party of Science? :-)
   797. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:28 PM (#5612448)
498

Gordon Lightfoot could take Neil Young in a Halifax minute.



If you could read my mind.

Kick him from the early morning rain all the way to sundown, up and down a carefree highway.


He'd end up looking like the Edmund Fitzgerald.
   798. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:28 PM (#5612450)
IQ and income are related.

But far exceeded by the correlation between relative wealth and relative inherited wealth.
   799. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:29 PM (#5612452)
I have previously proclaimed my strong interest, the main goal for Democrats in 2018, to be down ballot. Since I - of course - know that everyone shares my interests, here you go: Our new legislative open seat tracker shows signs of a 2018 Democratic wave election

Despite appearances it is not the conclusion I am interested in (OK, I am, but still), it is the tracker they link to ...

All cycle long, we've been tracking open seats for the U.S. House, and now Daily Kos Elections has added a new tool to our arsenal: a tracker for open seats in state legislatures around the country. This new spreadsheet offers two tabs: (1) a state-by-state summary of both open seats and, for good measure, uncontested seats; and (2) a district-by-district list of all open seats, including presidential performance in those seats.​

​Note that we're only adding states after their filing deadlines pass, otherwise it's just too much of a moving target; so far, that's just Illinois and Texas. But some patterns are already emerging. Thirty Republicans in these two states aren't seeking re-election compared with just 12 Democrats. That proportion is similar to what we're seeing for the House, where 31 Republicans and 15 Democrats are retiring.


I plan on watching their tracker, and welcome others who are interested to as well.
   800. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 24, 2018 at 12:31 PM (#5612454)
This is great. The average Republican is a Creationist, thinks global warming is an international scientific conspiracy, and just voted for a man who claimed vaccines cause autism. And their response is, “No stupid, no stupid. You’re the stupid.”

It’s autofellating projection all the way down isn’t it.
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