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Monday, October 23, 2017

OTP 23 October 2017: Dave Zirin discusses how race, politics, culture impact sports

“There was a mammoth gap between what I thought about sports history and what actually was sports history,” Zirin said.

Zirin used examples of figureheads of the civil rights movement to demonstrate how there has always been a connection between sports and politics. He spoke about athletes like Jackie Robinson who, in addition to becoming the first African-American to play in Major League Baseball, was an important figure in the civil rights movement alongside Martin Luther King Jr., Malcolm X and others.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 23, 2017 at 08:36 AM | 2102 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   1. BDC Posted: October 23, 2017 at 11:12 AM (#5560326)
Another country heard from: the north of Italy, where popular movements are afoot to detach the traditionally wealthy regions from their poorer fellows to the south:

MILAN/VENICE (Reuters) - Political leaders in northern Italy claimed an overwhelming mandate on Monday to seek greater autonomy from Rome after referendums that did not go as far as the independence vote in Catalonia declared illegal by Spain.

Voters in Lombardy and Veneto, both run by the once openly secessionist Northern League, backed the party's autonomy bid by more than 95 percent, although in Lombardy less than half of the electorate turned out.

In both regions, many people complain their taxes are wasted by the central government, accusing Rome of delivering low-quality public services and diverting money to the poor south widely seen by northerners as corrupt.
   2. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 23, 2017 at 11:19 AM (#5560330)
It kind of sucks that History is back after a period of relative dormancy, but these European countries as unified entities are still very young. As unified democracies they're the functional equivalent of toddlers.

EDIT: And of course History is back after a period of relative dormancy primarily because liberalism has morphed into modern liberalism. Only modern liberalism would have so arrogantly insisted on the open border-esque admission of millions of refugees that we saw in the summer of 2015. That isn't the only cause, to be sure, but it's a primary one.
   3. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 23, 2017 at 11:36 AM (#5560333)
Old thread, 1945



Cheaper Health Plans Promoted by Trump Have a History of Fraud


I assume these are the $1/month insurance policies he was raving about a few months ago.


Lloyds of Lubbock
   4. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 23, 2017 at 11:36 AM (#5560335)
Another country heard from: the north of Italy, where popular movements are afoot to detach the traditionally wealthy regions from their poorer fellows to the south


Is this really that strange? It seems to me nations looked at from a little historical remove are always in somewhat of a state of flux. Look at maps from the past and it becomes obvious. There is not any kind of static platonic ideal set of nations or borders. There are always groups nursing grudges (real and imagined) which are positive that if only they were free they could do better.

It is pretty natural and of course these movements gain or lose strength based on external events. These movements are earthquakes, where the pressure builds up along existent fault-lines and then whole sections let loose.

It is an existential crisis of sorts for the nation-states involved, but for the people not so much and certainly not directly for people in other nations. It is worth watching and understanding, but most of it is not a huge cause for concern, unless it turns into a destructive war, which I doubt any of the Western European ones are likely to do.
   5. BDC Posted: October 23, 2017 at 11:37 AM (#5560337)
primarily because liberalism has morphed into modern liberalism. Only modern liberalism would have so arrogantly insisted on the open border-esque admission of millions of refugees

When all you got is a hammer … but the primary issue in Lombardy and Veneto appears to be control over taxes and expenditures. "Yes" voters in those regions believe that they are being bled dry by the south. Immigration is not foregrounded in the various stories I've read in the English-language, Italian, and French press. Not saying it's absent as an issue in Italy, Lord knows, but it does not seem to be driving this current referendum.
   6. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 23, 2017 at 11:39 AM (#5560338)
Water is wet. Ice Cream is awesome. Most Think Trump Will Be One of the Worst Presidents

A new Marist poll finds that 58% of Americans believe Donald Trump will be remembered as either one of the worst presidents in the nation’s history.

Said pollster Lee Miringoff: “Deep into his first year as president, Donald Trump’s less than stellar approval rating has lowered expectations about how history will judge him. For history to treat him kinder, he will have to up his game.”
   7. Greg K Posted: October 23, 2017 at 11:40 AM (#5560339)
I'm not sure about Italy, which has dealt with more than its fair share of migrants over the past five years, but I don't think the recent migration crisis has had that much to do with the Catalonian independence movement.

I think in Italy economic crisis the primary driving factor. Italy is slowly dealing with a toxic financial sector, which is putting a tremendous amount of stress on the unity of the Italian people (which, as you note, was never all that strong to begin with).

I think what we're seeing are the national projects (ie. the process of fashioning disparate groups into a "nation") which were only ever half-done in Spain and Italy, coming apart under stress.

I don't think we should discount the draw of trans-national Europeanism as well. Certainly if you look at the SNP or the Catalonians, one of the reasons they seek independence is that they no longer see the value of being in the larger British or Spanish state, when they have the EU. The Northern League has traditionally been Eurosceptic, but Maroni has lately gotten behind all the major centralizing European reforms - greater ECB supervision, Eurobonds, making the Commission President an elected office, greater parliamentary powers, and fiscal union.

What we might be seeing are the weakest of the European national projects splintering as a trans-national alternative appears viable. In other words, both Catalan nationalists and the Northern League see the EU as the better club to be in rather than the club of Spain or Italy.
   8. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 23, 2017 at 11:41 AM (#5560340)
When all you got is a hammer … but the primary issue in Lombardy and Veneto appears to be control over taxes and expenditures. "Yes" voters in those regions believe that they are being bled dry by the south. Immigration is not foregrounded in the various stories I've read in the English-language, Italian, and French press. Not saying it's absent as an issue in Italy, Lord knows, but it does not seem to be driving this current referendum.


Unified and distant political entities and establishments lost a boatload of credibility over immigration. I'd agree that the issue isn't necessarily foregrounded, but it's at the very least heavily backgrounded. The refugee silliness certainly put the idea of smaller entities managing their own affairs instead to the forefront.
   9. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 23, 2017 at 11:45 AM (#5560343)
The European project never fully "took" among the voters, which meant the elites who championed it should have been extremely careful and treaded very, very lightly. (*)

Merkel's attitude and actions in re the refugees was pretty much the exact opposite of this, and had to rankle even more coming from Germany -- particularly after Germany's heavyhandedness in the Greek financial crisis.

(*) Which seems to be congenitally impossible for multicultural fanatics to do.

   10. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 23, 2017 at 11:52 AM (#5560346)
What we might be seeing are the weakest of the European national projects splintering as a trans-national alternative appears viable. In other words, both Catalan nationalists and the Northern League see the EU as the better club to be in rather than the club of Spain or Italy.


I think this is a good perspective, because what club various groups of people belong to is not - in the modern world, certainly not in Europe - the most important factor. Like I said it is a critical matter to the nation, but not nearly as much to the people. Nationalism as we know it today did not always exist, and what it is and how important it is for the people seems to evolving over time, at least partly because of the evolution of those trans-national alternatives.
   11. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 23, 2017 at 11:54 AM (#5560348)
Cheaper Health Plans Promoted by Trump Have a History of Fraud

I assume these are the $1/month insurance policies he was raving about a few months ago.


Lloyds of Lubbock

Only in Lubbock your policy pays you if you're run over by a herd of cattle, not by a stampede of buffalo.
   12. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 23, 2017 at 11:55 AM (#5560349)
There's no guarantee that an independent Catalonia or Northern League would even be in the EU though. They would have to negotiate their way in. It may be true that they see even that reality as better than staying in Spain/Italy, but it's hardly automatic.

Spain's membership in the EU should be threatened if its crackdown on Catalonia continues apace. But of course the EU bureaucrats will choose Spain.
   13. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: October 23, 2017 at 11:57 AM (#5560351)
It is pretty natural and of course these movements gain or lose strength based on external events. These movements are earthquakes, where the pressure builds up along existent fault-lines and then whole sections let loose.
Conspiracy theory hat on, but I would be shocked if Putin and co are not supporting these movements in a way similar to what they did with Trump, BLM etc. Can't really blame them, if they are, but you'd hope the EU/Italy/Spain etc would investigate and get it into the open.
   14. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: October 23, 2017 at 12:00 PM (#5560353)
Sen. John McCain yesterday, on the Vietnam War:
"One aspect of the conflict, by the way, that I will never, ever countenance is that we drafted the lowest income level of America. And the highest income level found a doctor that would say they had a bone spur."

And who was wealthy and got a deferment because of a bone spur?
Someone who didn't get captured by the enemy. Duh.
   15. Lassus Posted: October 23, 2017 at 12:01 PM (#5560354)
A new Marist poll finds that 58% of Americans believe Donald Trump will be remembered as either one of the worst presidents in the nation’s history.

WTF kind of sentence is that?
   16. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 23, 2017 at 12:01 PM (#5560355)
While TFA doesn't specify -- I would presume northern Italy's secessionists would, like Catalonia, ALSO want to stay within the EU (I would think doubly so given the banking and tourism).

If we could ignore Sugar Metronome for a minute....

It might make for an interesting question as to whether the era of the federation is at hand. I.e., past instances of looser confederations failed - but the world was a different place during the times of colonialism, imperialism and land-grab wars. IOW - stronger, top-down nations were something of a necessity during the centuries when neighbors were constantly looking to carve off little pieces of other nations.

If we would agree that such a period is over -- especially in Europe (let's set aside Russia's ambitions for this exercise) -- it might well be that the time of 'large nations, with top-down federal control' in favor of smaller, fragmented states collected in a currency/travel/etc something like (if not, entirely as currently constituted) the EU could well be the future.

You could expand that to England -- where it sure seems like the breakaway movements in Scotland, etc aren't looking to be isolated -- just eliminate the layer of British sovereignty while still remaining part of the larger EU collective.
   17. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 23, 2017 at 12:01 PM (#5560356)
"One aspect of the conflict, by the way, that I will never, ever countenance is that we drafted the lowest income level of America. And the highest income level found a doctor that would say they had a bone spur."

And who was wealthy and got a deferment because of a bone spur?

Bill Clinton?

The Times' editors in 1992 told us that he did act "cleverly" to avoid the draft, but that we needn't be concerned with this "irrelevance" and "distraction" because his conduct was not manifestly different from that of his peers and thus to "single him out" would be an "injustice":

Bill Clinton's Vietnam Test
Published: February 14, 1992

The curse of Vietnam echoes anew through American politics. The war tore the country apart a generation ago when the body bags were coming home. Now it reverberates in the New Hampshire Presidential primary campaign with intimations that Gov. Bill Clinton of Arkansas dodged the draft in some devious way.

...

On present evidence, Bill Clinton worked to avoid the draft, at times cleverly, but in ways that accorded with accepted common practice among others of his generation. Against that history, this Vietnam echo looks like an irrelevance that ought not distract New Hampshire voters from judging Bill Clinton on his merits.

The questioning centers on the fall of 1969 when Bill Clinton was headed back to England to complete a Rhodes Scholarship. It seemed unlikely that his draft board would defer him again. He tried and failed to win Navy or Air Force commissions that might have sent him to Vietnam, though not as a grunt soldier. Then he signed up for a Reserve Officer program that kept him out of the draft.

A few weeks later, on Oct. 31, his draft board, having learned he had changed his mind about R.O.T.C., reclassified him 1-A, theoretically exposing him to call-up. Only on Dec. 1, when his birth date came up 311 in the brand new draft lottery, was he safe against worry.

He may have felt safe even during that exposed November. Draft calls had been reduced and graduate-student deferments were about to be restored. Taken in isolation, the Clinton record could thus be read to show manipulation and delay. But in fairness, his behavior needs to be compared with that of his peers.

...

Bill Clinton, who despised the Vietnam War "with a depth of feeling I had reserved solely for racism," may or may not have exposed himself to actual risk of induction. But to single him out as some sort of devious draft-dodger does him, and the anguish of Vietnam, an injustice.


Again, which team do you root for? As ever that's the black box between the input and the output and you can always predict a zealot's conclusion based on that. To the extent there are any "principles" at play in discussing and "analyzing" the minutiae of this, Team Blue or Team Red appears to be the guiding ones.

   18. Lassus Posted: October 23, 2017 at 12:02 PM (#5560357)
That isn't the only cause, to be sure, but it's a primary one.
I'd agree that the issue isn't necessarily foregrounded, but it's at the very least heavily backgrounded.
OK then.
   19. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 23, 2017 at 12:07 PM (#5560361)
17

...and there it is.
   20. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 23, 2017 at 12:07 PM (#5560362)
Yeah. Trump calling the widow a liar. Can I say that's not a good look for him?


That depends to some extent on who's doing the lying.
   21. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: October 23, 2017 at 12:08 PM (#5560363)
Dunno if Clinton was a draft dodger or not, but that article seems to say the opposite. Whereas it was pretty clear that our Lacrosse star President could have served his country and chose not to.

Hillary couldn't attack him because of her Billbatross, but John McCain certainly does not have that problem.
   22. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 23, 2017 at 12:08 PM (#5560364)
There's no guarantee that an independent Catalonia or Northern League would even be in the EU though.
But that's what pro-independence politicians have been promising.


(There's no economic reason why the EU wouldn't admit newly-independent regions; the only reason they wouldn't do so is political: to discourage all the other secessionist regions from seceding. Since presumably almost all EU member states have their own secessionist movements to one degree or another, that might be an overriding factor.)
   23. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 23, 2017 at 12:09 PM (#5560366)
I'm just spitballing here, but one difference between Bill CLinton and Trump might also be that Bill never expressed any opinions I'm aware of regarding the heroism of the captured vs non-captured, never referred to STD avoidance as his own personal Vietnam, etc.

But - this is Ray's particular brand of Trumpism.... where Trump is treated so unfairly compared to a Clinton.... so long as you ignore Trump's penchant for shooting off his mouth and opening himself up to the comparison.
   24. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 23, 2017 at 12:13 PM (#5560368)
Again, which team do you root for? As ever that's the black box between the input and the output and you can always predict a zealot's conclusion based on that. To the extent there are any "principles" at play in discussing and "analyzing" the minutiae of this, Team Blue or Team Red appears to be the guiding ones.


Um, it was a GOP Senator calling out a GOP President.
   25. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 23, 2017 at 12:18 PM (#5560372)
Again, which team do you root for? As ever that's the black box between the input and the output and you can always predict a zealot's conclusion based on that. To the extent there are any "principles" at play in discussing and "analyzing" the minutiae of this, Team Blue or Team Red appears to be the guiding ones.


Um, it was a GOP Senator calling out a GOP President.

RINOs aren't real Republicans. Just ask Steve Bannon.
   26. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 23, 2017 at 12:20 PM (#5560374)
Somewhere, a hooded Palpatinian figure is whispering "Guuuuuuuddddd... Give into your Trumpism.... Say Uni-party and you're transformation into my apprentice will be complete"
   27. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 23, 2017 at 12:21 PM (#5560375)
Um, it was a GOP Senator calling out a GOP President.


Ray seems to think there are two political parties Trump and not-Trump. And a member of the not-Trump party made the statement. So in his world it is all about the teams.
   28. Greg K Posted: October 23, 2017 at 12:23 PM (#5560378)

There's no guarantee that an independent Catalonia or Northern League would even be in the EU though. They would have to negotiate their way in. It may be true that they see even that reality as better than staying in Spain/Italy, but it's hardly automatic.

Spain's membership in the EU should be threatened if its crackdown on Catalonia continues apace. But of course the EU bureaucrats will choose Spain.

Yeah, I didn't say the goal was realistic. An independent Catalonia asking for inclusion in the EU would likely cause a European constitutional crisis, as in the current structure Spain would have a veto on that decision.

It's going to be a tremendously difficult issue to navigate, especially if such a move by Catalonia was followed by other independence movements.
   29. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 23, 2017 at 12:24 PM (#5560379)
Water is wet. Ice Cream is awesome. Most Think Trump Will Be One of the Worst Presidents


What the hell, man? That doesn't rhyme!

Even if it's bad, at least make an effort. "Water is wet. Giant eyes remind of The Residents. Most Think That Trump Will Be One of the Worst Presidents."
   30. PepTech Posted: October 23, 2017 at 12:32 PM (#5560381)
Ray seems to think there are two political parties Trump and not-Trump. And a member of the not-Trump party made the statement. So in his world it is all about the teams.
Yep, it's Trump and Carter vs. McCain and Corker. Where Bannon fits I do not know.

I will say that this weekend brought a true example of TDS: Trump family breaks with Presidential pet tradition. Now *that* is an example of finding something where nothing exists. RUSSIA! just might have a little more legs; as the phrase goes, wait and see.

   31. Lassus Posted: October 23, 2017 at 12:37 PM (#5560384)
Trump spends too much time away golfing to care for a pet, and he's too ####### cheap to pay for a sitter.

Also, the article is not an indictment. Noting the fact that he's the first President in centuries to not have a pet - considering a majority of Americans have a pet - is not bizarre or deranged.
   32. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 23, 2017 at 12:37 PM (#5560385)
What the hell, man? That doesn't rhyme!


It is blank verse man. Don't try to fence in my creativity with your crazy rhyming rules!
   33. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 23, 2017 at 12:41 PM (#5560389)
Trump spends too much time away golfing to care for a pet, and he's too ####### cheap to pay for a sitter.


My friends in NYC pay unseemly amounts of money for dog sitters, when they're away on vacation and what not.

I feel like that's their just punishment for me not being able to walk on the sidewalk without having to look down to see if I'm about to step in a big steaming pile of dog ####.

Dog owners in the city are rude and inconsiderate just by virtue of having an animal that shits and pisses all over the place. We would never accept this from humans, just take a dump on the sidewalk and then scoop it up and you're all good.
   34. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 23, 2017 at 12:48 PM (#5560391)
My friends in NYC pay unseemly amounts of money for dog sitters, when they're away on vacation and what not.

I feel like that's their just punishment for me not being able to walk on the sidewalk without having to look down to see if I'm about to step in a big steaming pile of dog ####.


And what's even worse, they're doing it only because they know it annoys you!
   35. Hot Wheeling American Posted: October 23, 2017 at 12:53 PM (#5560395)
Dog owners in the city are rude and inconsiderate just by virtue of having an animal that shits and pisses all over the place. We would never accept this from humans, just take a dump on the sidewalk and then scoop it up and you're all good.

Good God, RDP is Wade Blasingame (no, not the ballplayer)
   36. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: October 23, 2017 at 12:55 PM (#5560398)
My friends in NYC pay unseemly amounts of money for dog sitters


As opposed to luxury brand condos?
   37. BDC Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:03 PM (#5560404)
If we could ignore Sugar Metronome for a minute

Always a good idea, but then there's this in #9:

The European project never fully "took" among the voters, which meant the elites who championed it

I think you'd have to consult the truly millions of people who've moved across borders in the past 25 years, to work, to go to school, to create and stay in touch with international families and other kinds of communities – before you go ascribing the "European project" to a little group of elitist theorists :)
   38. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:04 PM (#5560405)
Um, it was a GOP Senator calling out a GOP President.


McCain is obviously resentful and jealous that Trump actually succeeded in becoming president, and that Trump was, is, and has been immune from things like making your most important executive personnel decision be Sarah ####### Palin.
   39. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:05 PM (#5560406)
Congress is on track for a major government shutdown showdown

Don’t look now, but it’s becoming a real possibility that the government will shut down in December. Congress has until midnight on December 15 to pass a spending bill or the federal government will run out of money.

The tricky thing is that Republicans need at least eight Democrats in the Senate to meet the 60-vote threshold needed to pass a bill, which means they will need to make some serious compromises to get a spending bill through.

The shutdown dance is a familiar one — it looked possible as recently as this past April — and it’s still too early to evaluate the state of negotiations (Congress has a habit of waiting until the last minute on spending bills). But this year, President Donald Trump has really complicated Congress’s job.


Hard to believe Trump has complicated things. Watching the GOP as a whole balance the demands of the Democrats with the demands of their right wing fringe, all while trying to avoid a government shut down should be interesting.
   40. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:06 PM (#5560407)
I will say that this weekend brought a true example of TDS: Trump family breaks with Presidential pet tradition. Now *that* is an example of finding something where nothing exists. RUSSIA! just might have a little more legs; as the phrase goes, wait and see.
PDS around presidential pets is nothing new; there was drama regarding the Obama family's lack of a dog, as well. When they finally got one (as gift from Ted Kennedy, of all people) the usual suspects attacked them for not adopting a dog from a shelter. Obama "fixed" it by donating a bunch of money to the humane society or something.

Fox had a field day publishing Obama's gift disclosure form, with a $1600 entry for "dog", and articles that mentioned the dog usually included a tagline like "$2500 dog".

Anyway it would be awesome if Trump went five blades and got a tiger for the white house in response to this article, though. Or an elephant. No one had a bigger pet than me, dammit.
   41. BDC Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:07 PM (#5560410)
Are we sure that Teddy Roosevelt didn't have an elephant? Seems like the kind of thing he would do.
   42. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:07 PM (#5560411)
I think you'd have to consult the truly millions of people who've moved across borders in the past 25 years, to work, to go to school, to create and stay in touch with international families and other kinds of communities – before you go ascribing the "European project" to a little group of elitist theorists :)


That's a minority of voters and, moreover, you don't need full-on Europe to have open internal borders. You certainly don't need Angela's Excellent Syrian Refugee Adventure to have open internal borders.

But I can see that the famous modern liberal trilogy of ...

--Do something stupid
--Cause voter push back against the stupidity
--Call voters racist

... appears as impermeable and inviolate as ever.
   43. Traderdave Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:09 PM (#5560413)
Anyway it would be awesome if Trump went five blades and got a tiger for the white house in response to this article, though. Or an elephant. No one had a bigger pet than me, dammit.


That's actually quite plausible.
   44. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:10 PM (#5560415)
40

Anyway it would be awesome if Trump went five blades and got a tiger for the white house in response to this article, though. Or an elephant. No one had a bigger pet than me, dammit.


He's already got a whale: Chris Christie.
   45. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:10 PM (#5560416)
My friends in NYC pay unseemly amounts of money for dog sitters, when they're away on vacation and what not.

I feel like that's their just punishment for me not being able to walk on the sidewalk without having to look down to see if I'm about to step in a big steaming pile of dog ####.
I was on travel most of the summer doing site visits, and took my family along; we spent almost $3K on dog sitting- even in Albuquerque. This made me seriously reconsider the idea of having dogs.

I always thought NYC was relatively clean, at least in terms of dog #### on the sidewalk. OTOH in Paris you have to be very careful where you step, poodle crap everywhere.
   46. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:11 PM (#5560418)
McCain is obviously resentful and jealous that Trump actually succeeded in becoming president, and that Trump was, is, and has been immune from things like making your most important executive personnel decision be Sarah ####### Palin.


Sarah ####### Palin.... Otherwise known as Trump without the (alleged) penis.
   47. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:11 PM (#5560419)
45

OTOH in Paris you have to be very careful where you step, poodle crap everywhere.


That's why they have those little fountains all over the place.

EDIT: What do they know? They thought Jerry Lewis was a genius.
   48. PepTech Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:14 PM (#5560421)
McCain is obviously resentful and jealous that Trump actually succeeded in becoming president
Jeebus, SBB, I know it's a Monday and all, but if you're just going to phone these things in, just take the day off already. It's much more in character for you to rip the old guy on his tumor. Plus you haven't mentioned the Decline yet this week. Have some standards, man!
   49. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:14 PM (#5560422)
Are we sure that Teddy Roosevelt didn't have an elephant? Seems like the kind of thing he would do.
Not a live one, anyway.
He had personally killed 296 animals, and his son Kermit killed 216 more, but that was not even a tenth of what they might have killed had they been so inclined. Far more animals were killed by the sci­entists who accompanied them, but those men escaped criticism be­cause they were mostly collecting rats, bats, and shrews, which very few people cared about at the time. Roosevelt cared deeply about all these tiny mammals, too, and he could identify many of them to the species with a quick look at their skulls. As far as Roosevelt was con­cerned, his work was no different from what the other scientists were doing—his animals just happened to be bigger.
   50. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:15 PM (#5560424)
The ex-Fox News anchor, now with NBC, blasted the network's handling of sexual harassment - especially surrounding Bill O'Reilly — during Monday's episode of "Megyn Kelly Today."

“This must stop,” she said, staring directly into the camera. “The abuse of women, the shaming of them, the threatening, the retaliation. The silencing of them after-the-fact.”

Kelly says she complained to Fox News about O'Reilly nearly a year ago, but network executives turned a deaf ear to her pleas.

...

The longtime ratings kingpin made his first public statement Monday since the report ran, calling it “a hit job to get me out of the marketplace” during an appearance on Glenn Beck’s radio show.

O’Reilly said he handled just three human resources complaints during more than 20 years at Fox News, accusing the New York Times of disregarding information he sent to the newspaper.

“O'Reilly's suggestion that no one ever complained about his behavior is false,” the NBC News anchor said Monday on her "Megyn Kelly Today." "I know because I complained."

Kelly recounted for the first time how she emailed then-Fox News Co-Presidents Bill Shine and Jack Abernethy last November after O'Reilly lambasted her on "CBS This Morning" for including a chapter about harassment at Fox News in her recently published memoir.

...

Kelly, who previously said longtime Fox News Chair Roger Ailes sexually harassed her, told the executives O'Reilly's remarks sent the wrong kind of message - considering he'd apparently just settled a sexual harassment suit.

...

Shine, who was fired from Fox News in early May, emailed Kelly back to say executives would deal with O'Reilly.

"By 8 p.m that night O'Reilly had apparently been dealt with," Kelly said Monday during the somber opening of her show.
"And by that I mean he was permitted, with management's advance notice and blessing, to go on the air and attack the company's harassment victims yet again."
   51. Lassus Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:21 PM (#5560426)
Someone's unsurprisingly being quite the baby if they find the area around Trump's condos - or any Manhattan sidewalk where they would be walking - to be replete with dog crap.
   52. BDC Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:24 PM (#5560427)
I always thought NYC was relatively clean, at least in terms of dog ####

It is now. The height of dog mess in New York City was roughly 1979, as I recall.
   53. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:28 PM (#5560429)
Someone's unsurprisingly being quite the baby if they find the area around Trump's condos - or any Manhattan sidewalk where they would be walking - to be replete with dog crap.


The Trump condos tend to clean the areas relatively quickly but still the issue is present.

It's more present on the UWS generally and in the neighborhoods. Midtown or areas where people don't tend to live are quite clean.

It's a neighborhoods problem. Because you dog people are everywhere.
   54. Satan Says Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:32 PM (#5560431)
Conspiracy theory hat on, but I would be shocked if Putin and co are not supporting these movements in a way similar to what they did with Trump, BLM etc. Can't really blame them, if they are, but you'd hope the EU/Italy/Spain etc would investigate and get it into the open.

Maybe instead of investing in baseless conspiracy theories, you could spend a few minutes learning the facts of the Catalan independence movement?

Or you could stick with actual Russian conspiracies at home.

This piece omits the fact the Obama administration quickly swapped the spies back to Russia for some of our'n.
   55. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:35 PM (#5560433)
I will say that this weekend brought a true example of TDS: Trump family breaks with Presidential pet tradition. Now *that* is an example of finding something where nothing exists. RUSSIA! just might have a little more legs; as the phrase goes, wait and see.


It's a minor thing, but it does serve as a small supporting piece to the "Trump has no empathy" argument, which does matter at least a little bit.
   56. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:37 PM (#5560434)
Ty Cobb working 85 hours per week "reviewing a vast database of internal documents relevant to the Russia probe"
Interesting article with some details about the potential legal jeopardy that Trump's former lawyers may find themselves in, due to the number of appearances and public statements they made.
   57. Greg K Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:38 PM (#5560435)
But I can see that the famous modern liberal trilogy of ...

--Do something stupid
--Cause voter push back against the stupidity
--Call voters racist


I think it's more accurate to call the Merkel plan as

1] Do something stupid
2] Try to walk it back
3] Pay the Turks to clean up the mess
4] Soldier on!
   58. Hot Wheeling American Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:39 PM (#5560436)
It's a minor thing, but it does serve as a small supporting piece to the "Trump has no empathy" argument, which does matter at least a little bit.

And feuding* with the family of a deceased soldier? Why would any sane person care? So long as the...let's check my talking points...the, uh, VIX is, uh, good?

(*feuding!! wtf)
   59. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:39 PM (#5560437)
Maybe instead of investing in baseless conspiracy theories, you could spend a few minutes learning the facts of the Catalan independence movement?
Sounds like I touched a nerve. You doing OK today?
   60. Hot Wheeling American Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:41 PM (#5560438)
The UWS is indeed crowded with dogs, but I've never felt their waste to be a problem. Scaffolding, though! Talk about a racket!
   61. Lassus Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:42 PM (#5560439)
Ty Cobb working 85 hours per week

Dude wasn't a HOFer for nothing.
   62. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:50 PM (#5560444)
The ex-Fox News anchor, now with NBC, blasted the network's handling of sexual harassment - especially surrounding Bill O'Reilly — during Monday's episode of "Megyn Kelly Today."

“This must stop,” she said, staring directly into the camera. “The abuse of women, the shaming of them, the threatening, the retaliation. The silencing of them after-the-fact.”

Kelly says she complained to Fox News about O'Reilly nearly a year ago, but network executives turned a deaf ear to her pleas.

...

The longtime ratings kingpin made his first public statement Monday since the report ran, calling it “a hit job to get me out of the marketplace” during an appearance on Glenn Beck’s radio show.

O’Reilly said he handled just three human resources complaints during more than 20 years at Fox News, accusing the New York Times of disregarding information he sent to the newspaper.

“O'Reilly's suggestion that no one ever complained about his behavior is false,” the NBC News anchor said Monday on her "Megyn Kelly Today." "I know because I complained."

Kelly recounted for the first time how she emailed then-Fox News Co-Presidents Bill Shine and Jack Abernethy last November after O'Reilly lambasted her on "CBS This Morning" for including a chapter about harassment at Fox News in her recently published memoir.

...

Kelly, who previously said longtime Fox News Chair Roger Ailes sexually harassed her, told the executives O'Reilly's remarks sent the wrong kind of message - considering he'd apparently just settled a sexual harassment suit.

...

Shine, who was fired from Fox News in early May, emailed Kelly back to say executives would deal with O'Reilly.

"By 8 p.m that night O'Reilly had apparently been dealt with," Kelly said Monday during the somber opening of her show. "And by that I mean he was permitted, with management's advance n


Meanwhile, the producers of the highlights shows on MLB and NHL Networks have taken to having all their female presenters dress up as pole dancers, inexplicably traipsing around the sets with tight dive cocktail waitress-caliber dresses, and 5 and 6-inch heels.
   63. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 23, 2017 at 01:53 PM (#5560446)
And feuding* with the family of a deceased soldier? Why would any sane person care? So long as the...let's check my talking points...the, uh, VIX is, uh, good?


Adam Clymer, in his definitive biography of Ted Kennedy:

[Kennedy's] achievements as a senator have towered over his time, changing the lives of far more Americans than remember the name Mary Jo Kopechne.
   64. Lassus Posted: October 23, 2017 at 02:00 PM (#5560452)
MLB and NHL Networks have taken to having all their female presenters dress up as pole dancers

Yeah, I watched the dugout interviews. You're lying.

And really, even if you weren't, you're going with "don't dress like a slut and you won't get harassed"?

Seriously, heels? If only they didn't wear those ####-me heels?
   65. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 23, 2017 at 02:13 PM (#5560456)
Of all the people I have might mused SBB might be, I have to admit that Blossom/whatever her name is would not have been among my guesses.
   66. Ishmael Posted: October 23, 2017 at 02:19 PM (#5560458)
Perros, if you're around:
materialist
[…]
phenomenologist

Are these statements of method, or statements of belief?

Are they in conflict, do you think?
   67. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: October 23, 2017 at 02:21 PM (#5560460)
Or you could stick with actual Russian conspiracies at home.
Interesting article. This is a great quote:
"We have 40,000 Russians living in Silicon Valley in California. We would be thrilled if 40,000 Russians were working in whatever the Russian equivalent of Silicon Valley is, providing global economic competition, taking the internet and technology to the next level,” Hillary Clinton said at the time, according to a State Department transcript.
The next level, indeed. Thanks, Hillary.
   68. Hot Wheeling American Posted: October 23, 2017 at 02:28 PM (#5560464)
Don't think I saw this here, but more conspiracy theories, this time centering around a twitter account I did see in the wild. What a great website.
Twitter account claiming to belong to Tennessee GOP was run by Russian trolls

Russian internet trolls ran a popular Twitter account that claimed to belong to the Tennessee Republican Party, BuzzFeed News reported Wednesday.

The company took nearly a year to shut down the account, @TEN_GOP, despite repeated notifications from the state's real Republican Party pointing out that the account was fake.

“It was in no way affiliated with our office,” Candice Dawkins, Tennessee Republican Party's communications director, told the news outlet. “It was very misleading.”

The actual Tennessee GOP Party reported @TEN_GOP three times — September 2016, March 2017 and August 2017 — in an attempt to have Twitter take down the fake account, BuzzFeed News reported, citing email correspondence that Dawkins provided. But their efforts proved to be unsuccessful for months.

The now "permanently suspended" account obtained at least 136,000 followers between when it was set up in November 2015 until it was shut down in August, the report highlighted, citing a snapshot of the account captured by the Internet Archive.

The account had a knack for pushing incendiary content across the social media platform.

...

The fake account was one of many run by a Russian-tied “troll farm” known as Russia's Internet Research Agency, which spent hundreds of thousands of dollars and assigned about 100 people to try to influence political attitudes in the U.S.

The decision to shut down the account also led to backlash from some far right users, Buzzfeed reported.
   69. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 23, 2017 at 02:51 PM (#5560473)
Yeah, I watched the dugout interviews. You're lying.


I said highlight shows. (It's right there in 62.)

No, I'm not lying. I don't lie.

And really, even if you weren't, you're going with "don't dress like a slut and you won't get harassed"?

Seriously, heels? If only they didn't wear those ####-me heels?


No, I'm going with "stop objectifying women." If you like men making women dress up like pole dancers so as to make other men -- many of them losers -- drool, then go with that. I sort of don't. YMMV.

   70. Dr. Vaux Posted: October 23, 2017 at 03:04 PM (#5560480)
Because the only reason a woman would wear high heels is because a man made her do it.

Why can't people enjoy dressing up and looking good? Or dressing down and looking good, if that's what they want to do? People often like to enjoy looking good, whatever their idea of looking good is, for its own sake.
   71. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 23, 2017 at 03:04 PM (#5560481)
No, I'm not lying. I don't lie.
I think I saw that episode of Star Trek TOS, where SBB caused Ray's head to explode with a statement like that.
   72. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 23, 2017 at 03:09 PM (#5560486)
I think I saw that episode of Star Trek TOS, where SBB caused Ray's head to explode with a statement like that.


That was the one with the Nazi planet, wasn't it?
   73. PepTech Posted: October 23, 2017 at 03:14 PM (#5560490)
That was the one with the Nazi planet, wasn't it?
That comment was funny on at *least* three levels. Thank you for that.
   74. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 23, 2017 at 03:14 PM (#5560491)
Because the only reason a woman would wear high heels is because a man made her do it.


No, but the only reason every woman every day dresses that way, when they have to walk around a TV set ... is because men are making them do it.

   75. Lassus Posted: October 23, 2017 at 03:16 PM (#5560492)
I said highlight shows. (It's right there in 62.)

My error, noted and apologies.


No, I'm not lying. I don't lie.
If you like men making women dress up like pole dancers


Here's one of MLB Network's pole dancers.
Here's Heidi Watney, in her pasties.
Someone should tell this one to put her clothes back on.
Maybe ask Sam Ryan when she's appearing at Flashdancers.

Yes, pole dancers. MLB highlight show and in-studio talent dressed like strippers. Far be it from me to question your judgment and honesty. How would you prefer these women to be dressed?
   76. Satan Says Posted: October 23, 2017 at 03:20 PM (#5560495)
Are these statements of method, or statements of belief?

Are they in conflict, do you think?

Yes, definitely. I've always found that if I stake a position, or ideal, its contradictions immediately come to the fore. What is atheism without a theism to fight?

The two books staring at me today are Ernest Becker's The Denial of Death and Please Kill Me, an oral history of Punk.

See the common theme?

I very much like this bit from Becker:

What is there to choose between religious creatureliness and scientific creatureliness? The most one can achieve is a certain relaxedness, an openness to experience that makes him less of a driven burden on others."


Terribly written, but to the point. Damned hard to be a responsible person. Just beginning to see the light... not long before they go out for good.
   77. Lassus Posted: October 23, 2017 at 03:27 PM (#5560496)
If only men could control themselves.
   78. PepTech Posted: October 23, 2017 at 03:28 PM (#5560497)
Far be it from me to question your judgment and honesty. How would you prefer these women to be dressed?
In a suit and tie, just like the men. You don't see Scott Van Pelt showing off his guns.
   79. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 23, 2017 at 03:30 PM (#5560498)
76

What is atheism without a theism to fight?


It seems there is always a need for an "other." Not just as a literary device -- it seems like everyone needs an enemy. There's no story without conflict.

US/Russia.
Yankees/Red Sox.
God/the Devil.
Liberal/Conservative.
Trump/not Trump.
Possibly me/you.
   80. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 23, 2017 at 03:33 PM (#5560500)
How would you prefer these women to be dressed?


Like something other than pole dancers at the behest of men.

I thought this was clear.
   81. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 23, 2017 at 03:35 PM (#5560502)
If only men could control themselves.


Doesn't help when other men make women dress like pole dancers in the hopes of attracting male eyeballs.

I was really under the weather for much of September and saw the highlight shows -- Quick Pitch -- during the day a lot, so I'm not sure entirely why you're arguing with what I saw.(*) It was blatantly obvious, and totally head-scratching.

(*) Or why you're posting links to things other than highlight shows.
   82. Lassus Posted: October 23, 2017 at 03:42 PM (#5560509)
Or why you're posting links to things other than highlight shows.

FFS. Those are studio shows with highlights.

Fine, here's QUICKPITCH, Heidi Watney in her G-string.


so I'm not sure entirely why you're arguing with what I saw.(*)

Because your definition of "dressing like a pole dancer" is idiotic and inaccurate.

   83. Morty Causa Posted: October 23, 2017 at 03:45 PM (#5560512)
81:

Do you really not think that women do not want men to find them alluring? That they are just helpless pawns?
   84. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 23, 2017 at 03:46 PM (#5560513)
The problem here is that SBB has no idea what a ploe dancer looks like

Not an Albright, I swear.
   85. PepTech Posted: October 23, 2017 at 03:47 PM (#5560515)
I was really under the weather for much of September and saw the highlight shows -- Quick Pitch -- during the day a lot, so I'm not sure entirely why you're arguing with what I saw.
Translation: I was feverish at the time, and you have *no* idea what goes on in my head.
   86. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 23, 2017 at 03:48 PM (#5560516)
Fine, here's QUICKPITCH, Heidi Watney in her G-string.

Yet again, Lassus disappoints.
   87. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 23, 2017 at 03:52 PM (#5560520)
Fine, here's QUICKPITCH, Heidi Watney in her G-string.


It's an LBD and five-inch heels. She isn't wearing that by choice. To work. To walk around on (what looks like) linoleum. Every single day.

It is to laugh.

What on Earth are you even arguing about anyway? It's the required uniform every bit as much as the Yankees wearing pinstripes to home games.

EDIT: The careful reader will note that I could have simply gone with "concession accepted" here, but, in the interests of harmony and comity, refrained.
   88. Lassus Posted: October 23, 2017 at 03:54 PM (#5560523)
What on Earth are you even arguing about anyway?
your definition of "dressing like a pole dancer" is idiotic and inaccurate.


To work. To walk around on (what looks like) linoleum. Every single day.

Women wear heels on the Broadway stage and on other television shows, too.
   89. PepTech Posted: October 23, 2017 at 03:55 PM (#5560524)
Do you really not think that women do not want men to find them alluring? That they are just helpless pawns?
Morty, women have been brainwashed by men to believe they need to look alluring in order to succeed. This was what women wore 38 years ago and it served them just fine.

(just trying to help :))

Same shoes, though. Maybe SBB is just full of crap.
   90. Satan Says Posted: October 23, 2017 at 03:57 PM (#5560525)
Possibly me/you.

Always wonder what people have accomplished in their lives, whT parts they've put their focus on.

That relaxed thing can't be stressed enough, I think.
   91. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 23, 2017 at 03:58 PM (#5560529)
What on Earth are you even arguing about anyway?
your definition of "dressing like a pole dancer" is idiotic and inaccurate.


OK, so then you were making a fussy and pedantic and hyper-literal argument about terminology. No great shock.
   92. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 23, 2017 at 04:00 PM (#5560530)
Women wear heels on the Broadway stage and on other television shows, too.


Right. When playing women other than themselves.

And they don't every single day, en masse.



   93. Lassus Posted: October 23, 2017 at 04:05 PM (#5560532)
fussy and pedantic and hyper-literal argument about terminology

I wasn't giving you a hard time over streetwalkers vs. escorts. The line between pole-dancer and entertainment personality is not "fussy", "pedantic", or "hyper-literal", to add other words to the large list of ones you can't figure out.
   94. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 23, 2017 at 04:06 PM (#5560534)
Do you really not think that women do not want men to find them alluring? That they are just helpless pawns?


No, but I think (know, actually) that a woman doesn't want to wear cocktail dresses and big heels to work every day when she has to walk around on the job.
   95. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 23, 2017 at 04:06 PM (#5560535)
I wasn't giving you a hard time over streetwalkers vs. escorts. The line between "pole-dancer" and "entertainment personality" is not fussy, pedantic, or hyper-literal, to add other words to the large list of ones you can't figure out.


She's not dressed like an "entertainment personality." Unless it's in the sense I kind of used the term in the first instance which is: to try to attract drooling men to watch the show.

It's beyond belief -- well, not really -- that you're belaboring this point.
   96. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 23, 2017 at 04:07 PM (#5560536)
. . . women have been brainwashed by men to believe they need to look alluring in order to succeed.

Not that I would expect many here to know, but women mostly dress to impress other women.
   97. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: October 23, 2017 at 04:08 PM (#5560537)
Maybe instead of investing in baseless conspiracy theories


Says the guy that tells us all how the Deep Staitz is out to get Glorious Leader Trumpkyonovich.
   98. PepTech Posted: October 23, 2017 at 04:09 PM (#5560538)
women mostly dress to impress other women.
Yes, because in Clapper's world, all the best women are lesbians ;)
   99. Ishmael Posted: October 23, 2017 at 04:09 PM (#5560539)
Yes, definitely. I've always found that if I stake a position, or ideal, its contradictions immediately come to the fore.

Thanks, I think that's well put.

So, in what sense are you a phenomenologist, say?
   100. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: October 23, 2017 at 04:11 PM (#5560540)
The line between pole-dancer and entertainment personality is not "fussy", "pedantic", or "hyper-literal", to add other words to the large list of ones you can't figure out.


Apparently Morty needs the womenz to dress in full burqa and niqab to prevent himself from being allured by Demon Satan Whores.
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