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Monday, September 25, 2017

OTP 25 September 2017: CC Sabathia won’t visit the White House if the Yankees win the World Series

Ballplayers, however, will likely continue to speak up. The latest: Yankees starter CC Sabathia, who was asked yesterday whether he would visit the White House if the playoff-bound Yankees won the World Series. From the Daily News:

“Never. I just don’t believe in anything that is Trump. So there wouldn’t be any reason for me to go at all. I just think it’s stupid. I just think it’s dumb that he’s addressing players and stuff that he shouldn’t be. But it is what it is, and that’s the country we live in these days . . . I’m proud of the way that everybody has Steph’s back and just athletes in general these days, the way everybody has been stepping up has been great.”

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 07:41 AM | 1989 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: cc sabathia, politics, yankees

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   1. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:32 AM (#5538157)
Good news: Trump's polling has rebounded a bit.

Bad news: Opinion of Republican Party Falls to New Low

A new CNN poll finds that just 29% of Americans hold a favorable view of the Republican Party.

That is down 13 percentage points from March and is the lowest mark for the GOP since CNN began asking the question in 1992.
   2. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:35 AM (#5538163)
Except of course for the fact that it is an authoritarian argument and not a liberal one. But I suspect your hatred of liberals caused temporary dysphasia or something. No worries.
"You didn't build that." Liberals routinely argue that successful people should be happy to pay taxes, etc., out of gratitude for the fact that the country has "allowed" them to be so successful.
   3. Howie Menckel Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:35 AM (#5538164)
fwiw:

Darren Rovell‏Verified account
@darrenrovell

Preliminary ratings for NFL games on CBS yesterday were UP 4% vs Week 3 of last year. Its pregame show had highest viewership in 7 YEARS.
10:26 AM - 25 Sep 2017
   4. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:36 AM (#5538167)
"You didn't build that." Liberals routinely argue that successful people should be happy to pay taxes, etc., out of gratitude for all the country has done for them.


Which is different than trying to suppress unpopular protest speech. But I am glad your dysphasia is going away. I hope you don't have another occurrence.
   5. PreservedFish Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:37 AM (#5538168)
Liberals routinely argue that successful people should be happy to pay taxes, etc., out of gratitude for the fact that the country has "allowed" them to be so successful.


True, but this isn't a "get the #### out of my country" argument, so I don't see it as particularly similar to Ray's.
   6. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:38 AM (#5538169)

What makes Ray's comment even dumber, though, is that Kaepernick isn't protesting how he was treated, so the fact that he has been successful here isn't even relevant. He's protesting on behalf of other people who weren't treated so well.
   7. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:38 AM (#5538170)
Ballplayers, however, will likely continue to speak up. The latest: Yankees starter CC Sabathia, who was asked yesterday whether he would visit the White House if the playoff-bound Yankees won the World Series. From the Daily News:

“Never. I just don’t believe in anything that is Trump. So there wouldn’t be any reason for me to go at all. I just think it’s stupid. I just think it’s dumb that he’s addressing players and stuff that he shouldn’t be. But it is what it is, and that’s the country we live in these days . . . I’m proud of the way that everybody has Steph’s back and just athletes in general these days, the way everybody has been stepping up has been great.”

Good for C.C.,** though I doubt if his point won't be moot before too long.

I wonder what (if anything) the Trump supporter and YES color man Paul O'Neill will have to say about this.

** EDIT: and Girardi
   8. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:38 AM (#5538171)
Hard to believe round 75 is not going better than the last 74 rounds ... Very Low Support for New GOP Health Care Plan

A new CBS News poll finds that just 20% of those polled said they approved of the Graham-Cassidy health care bill aimed at repealing and replacing the Affordable Care Act signed into law by President Obama.

Even more striking: Only 46% of Republicans said they approved of the bill.
   9. Morty Causa Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:39 AM (#5538172)
What's the MAGA thing? I've apparently missed a memo.

Make America Great Again

Too damn much use of cheap acronyms in this place. I, too, was confused for a minute--thought it was a reference to JOLLY OLD's jibing link to that men's site that has the unmitigated audacity (I'm in Atticus Finch mode) to uphold the view that males can be, and are, discriminated against, too (of course, never as bad as the identity privileged who take precedence as a matter of course and without saying, so don't say it). And it's no laughing matter.
   10. Lassus Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:39 AM (#5538173)
Hard to believe round 75 is not going better than the last 74 rounds ... Very Low Support for New GOP Health Care Plan

Wait, that one's not officially dead yet?
   11. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:40 AM (#5538175)
To be fair, Ray's reading of Trump's positioning - "you're either with America and The Flag, or you're with those uppity niggers" is precisely how it plays to his base, which is what he as up to when he ran that thing out there in his Alabama rally.

Go learn some history. Desecrating the flag
Remember when Kaepernick grabbed a flag off the flagpole at the stadium, stomped on it, and then set it on fire? Me neither.
   12. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:41 AM (#5538179)
Trump's preferred candidate is struggling, but in deference to Clapper I won't declare Strange in trouble. I will mention his eqqal chance continues to be less equal than he likely prefers though.


Strange In Trouble In Alabama

“The sheer breadth of the anti-Moore campaign has stunned Alabama’s political class: It includes non-stop TV ads, a meticulously-crafted get-out-the-vote effort, and detailed, oppo-research-filled debate prep sessions for Strange. … Much of the assault has played out on the air. During the final week of the contest, a trifecta of pro-Strange GOP groups — the Senate Leadership Fund, U.S. Chamber of Commerce, and National Rifle Association — flooded the state with about $2.5 million in TV and radio ads. Moore was confronting a nearly five-to-one spending deficit on the airwaves.”

The RealClearPolitics polling average shows Moore ahead by nearly eight points, 51% to 43%, ahead of Tuesday’s election.

   13. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:41 AM (#5538180)
I have consistently opposed the police on these issues.

And yet, a professional athlete's expressing similar opposition in public seems to bother you profoundly. Wonder why that is.


I'm happy to answer.

1. "In public" doesn't capture it; it's also at a place of business where the employer has encouraged its employees to stand. And where people went to watch a football game, not political grandstanding.

2. Protesting the anthem is a rebuke against the country as a whole, not against cops per se.

3. We can form a general opinion that cops go way over the line generally without being accountable -- and I agree -- but each incident should be taken case by case. It's a two way street. By and large -- there are exceptions -- the suspects aren't just minding their own business. They're often engaged in criminal activity. And/or have or are brandishing weapons. And/or often aren't complying with reasonable commands that a cop has the right to give. And while I don't think it excuses the cops that their jobs aren't easy in the sense that they often have to make split second decisions where danger is involved, that aspect of this does have a place in the conversation.

Cops are poorly trained, are dumb, are cowards, have little accountability, and are placed in tense and dangerous situations. That's a recipe for bad things to happen, and so part of the problem is that -- like an umpire's ability to call balls and strikes -- this is just hard to do successfully.

4. Black people are not "oppressed" in this country in the year 2017, unless the word has no meaning.

5. This country is the greatest country in the world. That's why so many people want to come here. That's why so few people want to leave.
   14. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:41 AM (#5538181)
Never. I just don’t believe in anything that is Trump. So there wouldn’t be any reason for me to go at all. I just think it’s stupid. I just think it’s dumb that he’s addressing players and stuff that he shouldn’t be. But it is what it is, and that’s the country we live in these days . . . I’m proud of the way that everybody has Steph’s back and just athletes in general these days, the way everybody has been stepping up has been great.”


Should be interesting when CC and Straw line up next to each other at 2020 Old Timers' Day...

EDIT: DUH. Forgot about O'Neill...[7]
   15. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:41 AM (#5538182)
Go learn some history. Desecrating the flag

Remember when Kaepernick grabbed a flag off the flagpole at the stadium, stomped on it, and then set it on fire? Me neither.


It's of a piece with the same sentiment.
   16. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:43 AM (#5538183)
Wait, that one's not officially dead yet?


Zombie Health Care reform is NEVER* dead. It is shambling around in an undead state though.

* Well according to the parliamentarian it dies at the end of September. But it might rise up again later this year or next year as attempt 76. Lucky 76.
   17. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:43 AM (#5538185)
Go learn some history. Desecrating the flag

Remember when Kaepernick grabbed a flag off the flagpole at the stadium, stomped on it, and then set it on fire? Me neither.


As opposed to Trump's groping a flag during the campaign & doing everything but jerking off on it.
   18. PreservedFish Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:45 AM (#5538187)
5. This country is the greatest country in the world. That's why so many people want to come here.


One reason that it's so great - and a particular reason that people want to come here - is that people are allowed to express themselves.
   19. PepTech Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:45 AM (#5538188)
Preliminary ratings for NFL games on CBS yesterday were UP 4% vs Week 3 of last year. Its pregame show had highest viewership in 7 YEARS.
It would be hilarious, in a completely awful way, if it turns out Trump has some kind of stake in the NFL, and ends up getting kickbacks from Kraft or something over this WWE-style work over anthem protests. I have to admit, that would give me new perspective on the 12D chess arguments.
What makes Ray's comment even dumber
Sorry, David, that would be like dividing by zero.
Good for C.C., though I doubt if his point won't be moot before too long.
The only question is whether Trump will specifically dis-invite Sabathia before the Yankees are eliminated.

It would be completely awesome if those five or six members of the Series-winning team that aren't too embarrassed to actually go to the White House decide to kneel en masse during whatever presentation they have.

ETA:
It's of a piece with the same sentiment.
We can add "desecration" to the list of English words that Ray uses differently than every other person.
   20. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:46 AM (#5538190)
This particular strain of TDS remains virulent. Trump fully condemned the Nazis.
Not only is this a flat-out lie, but it completely ignores what it purportedly responded to.

Me: "Trump did X instead of Y. If he cared, he'd have done Y."
Ray: "Why are you saying that Trump didn't do X? He did! You're deranged to say he didn't!"
And he never called any Nazis fine people. You're lying about that.
This is a double lie, since (a) he certainly did, and (b) I didn't even say that he did in the comment to which you are purportedly responding.
As for not calling for Nazis to be fired, the NFL issue is specifically linked to employment: the players are protesting as players, while in uniform, in the course of their employment. The Nazis were protesting standalone and not linked to their employment.
I'm sure that's a distinction relevant to someone somewhere in a galaxy far far away a long time ago, but it's not pertinent to this discussion. Try again.

EDIT: You know how we know that the "specifically linked to employment" argument is bogus (besides the fact that you pulled it out of your ass and Trump didn't say it)? Because he previously called for ESPN to fire Jemele Hill for her personal anti-Trump tweets.
   21. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:48 AM (#5538192)
One reason that it's so great - and a particular reason that people want to come here - is that people are allowed to express themselves.


And I'm allowed to express my expression of their expression.

I'm not advocating putting them in jail.

I'm advocating that they leave if they don't like it here, and that their employer discipline them -- which their employer has every right to do, *as long as* it's a form of discipline that has been collectively bargained with the players in this case.
   22. PreservedFish Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:48 AM (#5538193)
Is America the greatest country? Of course if you look at it objectively you'll find that Denmark or some such is more prosperous and happier and healthier, but then you have the fact that America plays World Beat Cop and you wonder if Denmark would be so lovely if America were not doing that.

Also, America has more nature than Denmark. And BBQ. That matters to me.
   23. Jack Keefe Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:48 AM (#5538194)
Al I half to ask is it desiccating the flag when you kneel down. In church we always hadda kneel down or Sister Aloysius would of slapped us silly. Now I can see Al if you turned your back on the flag or instead of kneeling still you danced the Macaroona. But for the love of Mike Al can you not kneel still & quite so that some 1 can see you are Serus about some Thing.
   24. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:50 AM (#5538197)
Is America the greatest country? Of course if you look at it objectively you'll find that Denmark or some such is more prosperous and happier and healthier, but then you have the fact that America plays World Beat Cop and you wonder if Denmark would be so lovely if America were not doing that.


Also America has 325 million people, so it's job is much much more difficult than Denmark's is.
   25. PreservedFish Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:50 AM (#5538199)

I'm not advocating putting them in jail.


It's of a piece of the same sentiment.
   26. The Good Face Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:50 AM (#5538200)
One reason that it's so great - and a particular reason that people want to come here - is that people are allowed to express themselves.


Unless their expression upsets powerful institutions. Then freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences.
   27. PepTech Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:50 AM (#5538202)
Reposted from dead thread:

Not that anyone has asked me, but since mine is the only valid opinion, I'll throw it in.

A) I find sitting for the anthem to be disrespectful and distasteful. Kneeling, with hand over heart, strikes me as a perfectly cromulent form of peaceful protest.

B) Trump is completely free to condemn either or both practices. His methodology for doing so, in counterpoint to his reaction to Charlottesville, takes a needlessly divisive tone. This is hardly a surprise. There was no *need* to pick a fight with the NFL, which is one of the few constructs in our society that actually bridges racial gaps and brings communities together for a common cause, and has been shown to contribute to healing those communities struck by natural or social disasters. But picking that fight caused another distraction from bad news (McCain, primarily), so Trump picked.

C) Ray is completely free to condemn either or both practices. That his condemnation is, at least in part, founded on a falsehood (#1400) which Ray is unlikely to take responsibility for, and finds itself in direct contradiction to his oft-repeated statements regarding taxation, are par for Ray's course. But the blood of patriots has been shed to provide Ray the right to be a lying hypocrite if he chooses. And he has chosen.
   28. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:52 AM (#5538204)
Also America has 325 million people, so it's job is much much more difficult than Denmark's is.


Job?
   29. BrianBrianson Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:52 AM (#5538205)
Also, America has more nature than Denmark. And BBQ. That matters to me.


Denmark has a lot of nature. Denmark has almost four hundred thousand square miles of national parks, for instance, about four times American's total.
   30. PreservedFish Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:54 AM (#5538207)
Denmark has almost four hundred thousand square miles of national parks, for instance, about four times American's total.


Let me guess, there's a really big one in Greenland?
   31. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:54 AM (#5538208)
#27. My opinions (less important and valid than yours, but still):

(A) As long as it harms no one, protest however you want.
(B) Well yeah. Majority See Trump as a Dividing Force. In other news, Majority see water as wet.
(C) Sure.
   32. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:54 AM (#5538209)
This particular strain of TDS remains virulent. Trump fully condemned the Nazis.

Not only is this a flat-out lie, but it completely ignores what it purportedly responded to.

Me: "Trump did X instead of Y. If he cared, he'd have done Y."
Ray: "Why are you saying that Trump didn't do X? He did! You're deranged to say he didn't!"


So Trump agreed with you but not in the way that you wanted him to. You'll excuse me if I don't find that compelling.

He didn't agree with you hard enough, amirite?

And he never called any Nazis fine people. You're lying about that.

This is a double lie, since (a) he certainly did, and (b) I didn't even say that he did in the comment to which you are purportedly responding.


(a) he certainly did not, and (b) the implication of your comment was that he did, otherwise your comment makes no sense.

As for not calling for Nazis to be fired, the NFL issue is specifically linked to employment: the players are protesting as players, while in uniform, in the course of their employment. The Nazis were protesting standalone and not linked to their employment.

I'm sure that's a distinction relevant to someone somewhere in a galaxy far far away a long time ago, but it's not pertinent to this discussion. Try again.


That's why employment was on Trump's mind; because this happened at the players' place of employment.
   33. Omineca Greg Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:55 AM (#5538211)
And this flæskesteg looks wonderful.
   34. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:57 AM (#5538213)
I have consistently opposed the police on these issues, it just pisses me off when people make note of such things outside of the BBTF OTP threads, where such complaints solely should be made.


Fixed that for Ray....
   35. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:58 AM (#5538215)
So you can't watch the Emmys -- not that I see why anyone would want to -- without being lectured about how horrible the country is.
Is there any more Ray comment than this?

"Thing I don't care about is being ruined by things I don't like."
   36. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:58 AM (#5538217)
That's why employment was on Trump's mind; because this happened at the players' place of employment.


Heh. Watching people explain what is on Trump's mind. Awesome.
   37. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:00 PM (#5538220)
I have come out squarely against the police in virtually all of these excessive force issues, with the exception of Ferguson, where there's enough gray area that one can't conclude with any confidence just WTF happened.

I have consistently opposed the police on these issues.
...as long as people don't protest the police. Then it's the protesters who are vile.
   38. Traderdave Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:00 PM (#5538221)
Also, America has more nature than Denmark. And BBQ. That matters to me.


I fancy myself a master of the art & last year started experimenting with Korean barbecue. My neighbor, a Korean-American, says mine is pretty good.

What other cultures barbecue?



   39. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:01 PM (#5538222)
Denmark has a lot of nature. Denmark has almost four hundred thousand square miles of national parks, for instance, about four times American's total.

If peoe knew that stupid wall was going to start in an environmentally sensitive wildlife refuge...

Ah, never mind.
   40. Spahn Insane, stimulus-funded BurlyMan™ Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:02 PM (#5538224)
1. "In public" doesn't capture it; it's also at a place of business where the employer has encouraged its employees to stand.

And yet, as others have noted, said employer doesn't seem terribly bothered by players engaging in silent protest. I'm sure they're happy you have their back, though.

And where people went to watch a football game, not political grandstanding.

One person's "political grandstanding" is another's peaceful protest of genuine social ills, but I realize that sort of distinction is both lost on and of no interest to you.

This point is particularly vacuous in the NFL context anyway--yes, god forbid the "political grandstanding" of a silent protest distract us from the otherwise-sideshow-free environment of the NFL. I anticipate this year's Super Bowl halftime entertainment will be commensurately understated...

We can form a general opinion that cops go way over the line generally without being accountable -- and I agree -- but each incident should be taken case by case.


So you agree that "cops go way over the line generally [my emphasis] without being accountable"--yet protesting that state of affairs is somehow out of bounds because it doesn't reflect a sufficiently granular "case by case" analysis of individual situations. Do I have that right? (And if that's "generally" the case, why is a "general" protest along the lines of taking a knee a problem for you?)

In any event, your two-paragraph enumeration of various concerns regarding policing in this country pretty well supports Kaepernick's view that these are problems.

Black people are not "oppressed" in this country in the year 2017, unless the word has no meaning.

Binary Ray doesn't do nuance. That black people aren't *as* oppressed, or in the same ways, as they were when living in slavery, or under Jim Crow laws, doesn't mitigate that many are "oppressed" (you may not think being shot without justification by an armed agent of the state constitutes "oppression," but I'll bet the dead person would disagree with you were s/he still alive. And no, the existence of cases in which white people are shot by cops, or in which black cops use excessive force, does not make such acts less "oppressive." No serious person disputes that racial minorities are disproportionately affected by the police using excessive force. And that they are also disproportionately affected by other social ills makes such treatment by the police more worthy of attention or protest, not less.).

This country is the greatest country in the world. That's why so many people want to come here. That's why so few people want to leave.

I'm not getting how it follows that one who objects to police misconduct or other problems is unable to ALSO, with complete logical and moral consistency, hold the view that the US is the greatest country in the world. Indeed, many protests are specifically motivated BY love of country--perhaps police brutality, apart from its inherent inhumaneness, offends protestors so precisely BECAUSE such conduct is inconsistent with the protestors' conception of what made the country great in the first place, and they want their country to do better, in no small part because it's, well, their country. Is this really that difficult for you to grasp?
   41. Nasty Nate Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:03 PM (#5538225)
What other cultures barbecue?
South Africa, I will guess.
   42. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:03 PM (#5538226)
36

Heh. Watching people explain what is on Trump's mind. Awesome.


They have to find it first.

HEY now...! I'm here all week. Try the veal and be good to your bartenders...
   43. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:04 PM (#5538227)
Wanting to suppress political speech you disagree with is about the least American thing I can think of.


Forcing it is even more un-American, yet the same people losing their #### about Trump are the same ones that want to force people to bake cakes. (And now, in Minnesota, to make wedding films.)

The only difference in the Trump situation is that the authoritarianism is running in the other direction. Well, guess what? That's what happens.
   44. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:05 PM (#5538229)
He doesn't like having to think about ugly things like black people being murdered in the streets when he tunes in to watch black people entertain him via gladatorial combat.


White people get murdered by cops, too, pretty much just as much as black people. Making it a black-only issue makes people support it way less. Whine about it all you want, but that's just an empirical fact.

Modern liberalism is terrible at building any kind of multi-racial coalition for any serious political action. It's a comical philosophy, pure ineffectual virtue signaling.
   45. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:05 PM (#5538233)
Regardless, to answer your question, my problem is that the NFL shouldn't be fine with the protests.


The NFL isn't fine with them. Which is why it fired the guy who most prominently got them started.

All the NFL is doing now is protecting its business against the perceived threat to it from Trump.

   46. Nose army. Beef diaper? (CoB) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:06 PM (#5538234)
What other cultures barbecue?


Australia
   47. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:06 PM (#5538235)
Remember when Kaepernick grabbed a flag off the flagpole at the stadium, stomped on it, and then set it on fire? Me neither.

As opposed to Trump's groping a flag during the campaign & doing everything but jerking off on it.

Or as opposed to his supporters who use it as a beach towel or bikini.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would be completely awesome if those five or six members of the Series-winning team that aren't too embarrassed to actually go to the White House decide to kneel en masse during whatever presentation they have.

At this point what's likely is that a few players will openly say they're not going to attend for the obvious reason, and either Trump will live with it or simply never schedule the ceremony. There are relatively few African Americans in baseball compared to football or basketball, but if a critical mass were to go Sabathia's route it might get to the point where the turnout would be more of an embarrassment to Trump than he'd think it'd be worth. And I doubt if too many owners would want to risk splitting their team into factions over a ceremony that's overshadowed by the presence of a racist in the White House.
   48. PreservedFish Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:07 PM (#5538236)
It's funny that I made that comment, I just checked instagram and there was a post from Copenhagen's Rene Redzepi, sometimes called the world's best chef, noting that all of the food at his anticipated restaurant Noma 2.0 will be cooked over live fire.

But, that, and Korean BBQ, is really just grilling, which is almost ubiquitous. By BBQ I really meant slow-smoked meats. Many cultures have certain dishes that use the technique but I think America might be the only place where it's central to an entire style of dining.
   49. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:07 PM (#5538237)
Forcing it is even more un-American, yet the same people losing their #### about Trump are the same ones that want to force people to bake cakes. (And now, in Minnesota, to make wedding films.)


Wedding cakes, is there ANY topic that some troll can't desperately try to link back to it?

Boring. Very boring. Zero bridges for the attempt.
   50. PepTech Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:08 PM (#5538239)
#27. My opinions (less important and valid than yours, but still):

(A) As long as it harms no one, protest however you want.
Agreed. In fact, one could make the argument that Kaepernick's actions have been enormously successful. Discussion has been engendered, and all that. That he modified his protest after talking it over with a veteran is particularly exemplary.

It is mystifying to me that he went from this quarterback to that one in such a short time, but he did. If he hadn't protested, it is possible he'd be out of the league anyway. No one wants to pay a backup $10M. Is he better than, say, Brian Hoyer? He *can* be, but go back and take a look at that second box score, and ask yourself if you want to trot that guy out there as your QB.
   51. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:10 PM (#5538241)

So Trump agreed with you [about the Nazis] but not in the way that you wanted him to. You'll excuse me if I don't find that compelling.

Trump's belated condemnation of the Nazis had all the sincerity of a pre-Miranda confession.
   52. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:10 PM (#5538242)
John Oliver last night:
"When you have lost the moral high ground to Roger Goodell, something is horribly wrong."
   53. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:11 PM (#5538243)
One reason that it's so great - and a particular reason that people want to come here - is that people are allowed to express themselves.


Let's not go overboard, now. That really isn't a reason the vast majority of people come here.
   54. Traderdave Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:11 PM (#5538244)
But, that, and Korean BBQ, is really just grilling, which is almost ubiquitous. By BBQ I really meant slow-smoked meats. Many cultures have certain dishes that use the technique but I think America might be the only place where it's central to an entire style of dining.



I know the difference between barbecuing and grilling.

My Korean short ribs are barbecued. I do them 24 hours in sous vide then 4 hours over hickory. They're ####### sublime.
   55. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:12 PM (#5538245)
51

Trump's belated condemnation of the Nazis had all the sincerity of a pre-Miranda confession.


Or a hostage video. "My captors are glorious patriots and are treating me well..."
   56. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:12 PM (#5538246)
Boring. Very boring.


Of course your authoritarianism is "boring" to you. No great shocker there.
   57. Swoboda is freedom Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:12 PM (#5538247)

Good for C.C.,** though I doubt if his point won't be moot before too long.


Not to inject baseball into a baseball site, but assuming the Yanks get out of the 1 game wildcard game, I think they have a good a chance as the other 3 teams. Cleveland and Houston would be the favorites, but not by much.

I guess after writing that, you are correct. They probably have less than 10% chance of winning it all, unless that can catch Boston.
   58. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:12 PM (#5538250)
So you agree that "cops go way over the line generally [my emphasis] without being accountable"--yet protesting that state of affairs is somehow out of bounds because it doesn't reflect a sufficiently granular "case by case" analysis of individual situations. Do I have that right? (And if that's "generally" the case, why is a "general" protest along the lines of taking a knee a problem for you?)


The anthem is a symbol of the country that so many people have fought and died for. That's one reason why I find these protests vile and disgusting.

No serious person disputes that racial minorities are disproportionately affected by the police using excessive force.


No serious person disputes that these incidents receive a wildly disproportionate amount of coverage and attention than similar incidents in which a non-black person is shot and killed by cops.

I'm not getting how it follows that one who objects to police misconduct or other problems is unable to ALSO, with complete logical and moral consistency, hold the view that the US is the greatest country in the world.


Again, the anthem - and the flag - are special symbols with particular meanings.
   59. The Good Face Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:14 PM (#5538252)
White people get murdered by cops, too, pretty much just as much as black people. Making it a black-only issue makes people support it way less. Whine about it all you want, but that's just an empirical fact.


Considering the vast disparity in violent crime by race, whites are being killed far more frequently. But whatever, the total numbers are insignificant either way. If the left wants to let their BLM freak flag fly again, I say go for it.
   60. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:14 PM (#5538253)
Again, the anthem - and the flag - are special symbols with particular meanings.


Ray: People should protest how I want. That is what freedom means.
   61. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:15 PM (#5538256)
58

No serious person disputes that these incidents receive a wildly disproportionate amount of coverage and attention than similar incidents in which a non-black person is shot and killed by cops.



I knew I should have posted a #FAKENEWS! countdown clock.

And, to be fair, you're not wrong on that point, Ray.
   62. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:15 PM (#5538257)
But whatever, the total numbers are insignificant either way.


Email servers are what are really important!
   63. Omineca Greg Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:16 PM (#5538259)
More relevant to this conversation, there were a number of jazz musicians who moved from the States to Denmark. Dexter Gordon, Thad Jones, Kenny Drew are probably the best known ones. They liked it better than the USA because there was less racism, and better work.
   64. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:17 PM (#5538260)
62

But whatever, the total numbers are insignificant either way.


Email servers are what are really important!


It's true. Just ask Jared...
   65. PreservedFish Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:18 PM (#5538261)
My Korean short ribs are barbecued. I do them 24 hours in sous vide then 4 hours over hickory. They're ####### sublime.


They sound like Korean-flavored short ribs, not Korean short ribs, which are almost always sliced ultrathin and grilled a la minute.

edit > A quick search finds some recipes for braised Korean short ribs, cut thicker like we Westerners usually do, but those aren't smoked either.
   66. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:18 PM (#5538262)
Anthony Weiner: 21 months for the man Huma thought was husband material and the Clintons thought was a good vehicle for another political marriage like their own.
   67. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:19 PM (#5538263)
Good for C.C.,** though I doubt if his point won't be moot before too long.

Not to inject baseball into a baseball site, but assuming the Yanks get out of the 1 game wildcard game, I think they have a good a chance as the other 3 teams. Cleveland and Houston would be the favorites, but not by much.

I guess after writing that, you are correct. They probably have less than 10% chance of winning it all, unless that can catch Boston.


I'm just worried that they won't make in out of the wild card game. They toyed with Minnesota last week, but if it's Severino vs Santana anything can happen.

And if they can survive that sudden death game, then they'd be big underdogs against Cleveland's pitching or Houston's hitting, especially without the HFA. I only wish that somehow they'd get a shot at the Red Sox, a very good team but one that they've handled pretty much all year.

What I'm really looking forward to is an injury-free roster in 2017, especially if they can pick up a good starting pitcher or two in the offseason.
   68. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:19 PM (#5538264)
Of course your authoritarianism is "boring" to you. No great shocker there.


SBB translation: "I am rubber and you are glue, it bounced off me and stuck to you!"

I have left the schoolyard, but sadly not everyone here has.
   69. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:21 PM (#5538266)
Anthony Weiner: 21 months for the man Huma thought was husband material and the Clintons thought was a good vehicle for another political marriage like their own.


No weird obsession with the Clintons. Nope. None at all. Just a healthy interest and view of everything and anything, and how it relates to the Clintons. Yup.
   70. PepTech Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:22 PM (#5538267)
the anthem - and the flag - are special symbols with particular meanings
I hope everyone was standing kneeling sitting down - we have officially added to the list of things that Ray *does* care about. These two brings the list up to, what, six?

In all honesty, it's nice, in a way, to be protective of the flag. There were probably flag decals on Obama's drones, too.
   71. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:23 PM (#5538268)
Email servers are what are really important!

Speaking of email servers.....
   72. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:24 PM (#5538272)
You owe me a drink for #64, Andy...
   73. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:24 PM (#5538273)
No weird obsession with the Clintons. Nope. None at all. Just a healthy interest and view of everything and anything, and how it relates to the Clintons. Yup.


It was fun that the Weiner connection arguably helped Hillary lose the election.
   74. Omineca Greg Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:24 PM (#5538274)
There were probably flag decals on Obama's drones, too.

Your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore.
   75. Lassus Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:24 PM (#5538275)
the man Huma thought was husband material and the Clintons thought was a good vehicle for another political marriage like their own.

This whole thing from Ray is a little extra-creepier than normal.
   76. Morty Causa Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:26 PM (#5538276)
By BBQ I really meant slow-smoked meats.

As someone born and reared in the Deep South, and a lifelong resident, and a Cajun, I say it ain't BBQ unless it's done on a charcoal pit, grilled or slow-cooked. Smokers are not BBQ (that doesn't mean the stuff isn't good).
   77. Traderdave Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:26 PM (#5538277)
but those aren't smoked either.


I use the thick kind & do them with American methods & Korean spices & flavors. They are damn good.
   78. PreservedFish Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:26 PM (#5538278)
I always loved this album cover, Ornette Coleman in Stockholm.
   79. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:27 PM (#5538280)
Not that anyone has asked me, but since mine is the only valid opinion, I'll throw it in.

A) I find sitting for the anthem to be disrespectful and distasteful. Kneeling, with hand over heart, strikes me as a perfectly cromulent form of peaceful protest.
I don't quite understand this argument. Protesting the anthem is supposed to be disrespectful.
   80. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:29 PM (#5538282)
"You didn't build that." Liberals routinely argue that successful people should be happy to pay taxes, etc., out of gratitude for all the country has done for them.

Which is different than trying to suppress unpopular protest speech. But I am glad your dysphasia is going away. I hope you don't have another occurrence.
You have this SBB-obnoxious level habit of deliberately misrepresenting what people are saying and then pretending that they agreed with you. Saying, "You should love the country because it allowed you to be successful" is not different than saying "You should love the country because it allowed you to be successful." In fact, they're the same thing. (You can tell, because they use the exact same words.)
   81. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:29 PM (#5538283)
Anthony Weiner: 21 months for the man Huma thought was husband material


Maybe she just thought he was a nice piece of ass...

   82. PreservedFish Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:31 PM (#5538285)
I use the thick kind & do them with American methods & Korean spices & flavors. They are damn good.


Oh, I believe you! It's just not traditional.

One of my favorite restaurants of all time was Fatty Cue in Brooklyn, which was a mash-up of American smoking techniques with Thai/Malaysian seasonings. It was phenomenal, there could be a thousand restaurants with the same concept as far as I'm concerned.
   83. Traderdave Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:31 PM (#5538286)
As someone born and reared in the Deep South, and a lifelong resident, and a Cajun, I say it ain't BBQ unless it's done on a charcoal pit, grilled or slow-cooked. Smokers are not BBQ (that doesn't mean the stuff isn't good).



As a Louisiana native with roots in Sunflower County, MS, I'd agree that a pit IS barbecue, but grilling and slow cooking (by which I assume you mean crock pots style) are decidedly NOT barbecue.

I'm not Cajun or creole but I'm proud of my etouffe. Email me if you want the secret.
   84. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:32 PM (#5538287)
1. "In public" doesn't capture it; it's also at a place of business where the employer has encouraged its employees to stand. And where people went to watch a football game, not political grandstanding.
Uh, you're confused. Whether players stand or kneel or stay in the locker room does not let fans¹ watch a football game. This is before the football game. During the pregame anthem. If people want to watch football rather than politics they should be upset at the league for wasting time on the anthem instead of getting right to the game. Instead, the league is engaging in political grandstanding by playing a political tune.



¹For whom you are clearly a spokesperson.
   85. Spahn Insane, stimulus-funded BurlyMan™ Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:33 PM (#5538288)
The anthem is a symbol of the country that so many people have fought and died for. That's one reason why I find these protests vile and disgusting.

Again, the anthem - and the flag - are special symbols with particular meanings.


Actually, I'm pretty sure that while both are undeniably national symbols, their "particular meanings" beyond that are highly individualized. And the main point, of course, is precisely that many protestors believe certain conduct betrays the ideals that underlie those symbols. To ignore that is to literally venerate symbolism (indeed, the symbols themselves) at the expense of the substance (e.g., "liberty and justice for all") the symbols ostensibly stand for.


   86. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:34 PM (#5538292)
Anthony Weiner: 21 months for the man Huma thought was husband material


Maybe she just thought he was a nice piece of ass...



Or she could have just enjoyed the pictures...
   87. Traderdave Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:34 PM (#5538293)
   88. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:34 PM (#5538294)
SBB translation: "I am rubber and you are glue, it bounced off me and stuck to you!"


Only the other side can be authoritarian. Mine just can't be!

WAAAAAA!!!

   89. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:34 PM (#5538295)
Primey for 25.
   90. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:35 PM (#5538296)
The word barbecue comes from barbacoa, so arguably Mexico and various Caribbean countries would also qualify.
   91. PreservedFish Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:35 PM (#5538297)
I'll take the SE Asian flavor profile of chilies, lime, cilantro, fish sauce over any tomato or mustard based BBQ sauce. Dynamite with sweet smoky soft meat.
   92. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:35 PM (#5538298)
Trump didn't start the thing where people can get fired or sanctioned because of the content of their speech.

He's just joining in on something that started several years ago.
   93. PreservedFish Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:35 PM (#5538300)
Primey for 25.


Glad someone noticed, I thought that was a good one.
   94. Morty Causa Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:35 PM (#5538301)
I don't quite understand this argument. Protesting the anthem is supposed to be disrespectful.

To what? The anthem? The USA and its Constitution that protects its right to protest? What? (And let's not go into the thousands of white men who were killed in the Civil War to right that original evil of slavery.)
   95. Omineca Greg Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:36 PM (#5538302)
I always loved this album cover, Ornette Coleman in Stockholm
.
Great music. If you haven't had a chance to listen to this, you should give it a try. Taylor/Lyons/Murray trio recorded in Copenhagen in '62. I love it.
   96. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:37 PM (#5538303)
The NFL isn't fine with them. Which is why it fired the guy who most prominently got them started.
What's the over/under on the number of times SBB is going to make this false argument and pretend he has scored a point? 25? 50?
   97. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:38 PM (#5538306)
You have this SBB-obnoxious level habit of deliberately misrepresenting what people are saying and then pretending that they agreed with you.


You deliberately misused the word liberal in an attempt to get a reaction and make a point. Which renders your "outrage" at my post pretty funny. Especially since I never "pretended" you agreed with me on anything. (I sarcastically suggested you were suffering from dysphasia - I will be less subtle in my sarcasm for your benefit in the future.)
   98. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:40 PM (#5538309)

I always loved this album cover, Ornette Coleman in Stockholm.


I love Ornette Coleman. Cecil, too.
   99. PreservedFish Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:40 PM (#5538310)
OG, I just put it on. It's been years since I gave Cecil Taylor fair shake ... not a big fan of free piano for whatever reason.
   100. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 12:41 PM (#5538311)
If people want to watch football rather than politics they should be upset at the league for wasting time on the anthem instead of getting right to the game. Instead, the league is engaging in political grandstanding by playing a political tune.


I will agree with this rebuttal point.
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