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Tuesday, September 05, 2017

OTP 5 September 2017: For storm-ravaged Houston, a presidential visit and baseball’s return

The city of Houston on Saturday witnessed two milestones on its road to recovery from Hurricane Harvey: a visit from the president of the United States and the return of baseball a week after deadly floodwaters engulfed the metropolis.

President Donald Trump, in a widely watched test of his handling of the disaster, distributed food and played with children at a center for evacuees in his first trip to Houston since it was slammed by one of the most destructive storms to hit the United States.

A few miles away, Major League Baseball returned to downtown Houston for the first time since Harvey came ashore last Friday as the most powerful hurricane to hit Texas in 50 years, bringing a welcome distraction to the fourth-most populous city, facing years of rebuilding.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 05, 2017 at 07:43 AM | 1430 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: houston astros, politics

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   1. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: September 05, 2017 at 12:52 PM (#5526218)
Well, no, because he was trying to help them, not #### them to score political points with the brownshirt brigade.
Good grief, Vlad. What Obama did was nothing but pandering and, by doing so, ###### these folks in the ass. Royally.
   2. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 05, 2017 at 12:54 PM (#5526219)
The actual content of what he did is good,

Not if it was illegal.
But if the courts were to uphold it, it would be good.
Courts have already struck down DAPA and Obama's attempt to expand DACA. (And, again, Obama already admitted he had no authority to do it.)
Yes, there's clearly no morality that exists outside of what 5 Justices of the Supreme Court might determine. 5 Supreme Court Justices of your liking, that is.
The president violating the law just because he thinks something is better policy? Are you sure you want to endorse that notion, given who's president now?
   3. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: September 05, 2017 at 12:56 PM (#5526221)
1) Key West, or Key Largo? I know you live in the former,


Neither actually, but 1 island down from Key Largo.
   4. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 05, 2017 at 12:56 PM (#5526222)
Good grief, Vlad. What Obama did was nothing but pandering and, by doing so, ###### these folks in the ass. Royally.


So Obama forced each and every one of them to sign up? Really?
   5. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 05, 2017 at 12:57 PM (#5526223)
Serious question David are you arguing that morality and legality are identical? Because your statements lead one to believe that, but no one else in the entire universe other than possibly you believes that.
There are several legal positivists here who believe exactly that. But, no, that wasn't remotely what I was arguing.

I was arguing that it is not "good" for the president to break the law just because he doesn't like it.
   6. villageidiom Posted: September 05, 2017 at 12:57 PM (#5526224)
In case anyone is preparing to launch their ire toward Jim for closing out commenting in the prior thread, it was me. No intent other than to get the party moved over here to the new thread. Sorry for doing so in the middle of the day when the thread is most active; I hadn't seen the submission until a few minutes ago.
   7. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: September 05, 2017 at 01:04 PM (#5526227)
In case anyone is preparing to launch their ire toward Jim for closing out commenting in the prior thread, it was me.


Antifa thug. Brownshirt.
   8. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 05, 2017 at 01:29 PM (#5526234)
On the previous thread, I was just about to dismiss someone's post as "silly," attack someone else's reading comprehension, and respond to a third poster's argument by reminding him of something dumb they typed in 2012. Now that can never happen.
   9. Lassus Posted: September 05, 2017 at 01:33 PM (#5526236)
I blame Berkely Breathed.
   10. villageidiom Posted: September 05, 2017 at 01:52 PM (#5526240)
Antifa thug. Brownshirt.
Oooh, I like playing $100,000 Pyramid!

Uh... "Things an American Nazi would say?"
   11. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 05, 2017 at 01:56 PM (#5526242)
Watch Trump voters express regret, disappointment: 'He couldn't be any worse at achieving goals'

Because regardless of what he truly wants to get done, whatever that may be, he has got to be his own worst enemy. He couldn't be any worse at achieving goals in politics. What most disappoints me is he's such an incredibly flawed individual that has articulated many of the values I hold dear and the messenger is overwhelming the message. I wish he was on the opposite side of where I hold dear, because it would be better for the causes that I like.


In unrelated news ... Trump is putting congressional Republicans in a tough place with DACA punt

The leader of the latter camp is not happy with the idea of a delay:

“Ending DACA now gives [us a] chance 2 restore Rule of Law. Delaying so Leadership can push Amnesty is Republican suicide,” tweeted ultra-conservative Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa) on Sunday night, after POLITICO first reported Trump’s expected decision.

So it would be over the opposition of King and his extremist anti-immigrant friends that:

In the House, senior Republicans still believe there’s a possible deal to be struck with Democrats: codifying DACA in return for Trump’s sought-after border wall.

That leaves Speaker Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) — who have both expressed sympathy for the plight of Dreamers in the past — in an awkward political position as they navigate a fall agenda that is already packed with a slate of must-pass bills, including government spending bills, a debt limit increase, and an aid package for Hurricane Harvey victims.


But if you really, really think about it, squint hard, and clap loudly ... Obama is equally to blame.
   12. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 05, 2017 at 02:01 PM (#5526244)
I might have posted this last week (if so sorry), but in light of recent events I think it is worth revisiting ... The U.S. Might Not Have Enough Construction Workers to Rebuild Houston After Harvey

And given the Trump administration’s hostility to Latinos and desire to ramp up deportations, it’s unlikely that what worked in previous disasters will work again. Back in 2007, the Washington Post reported on a Tulane and University of California, Berkeley, study that found some 100,000 Hispanic workers thronged into the Gulf Coast region in the wake of Katrina, many of them undocumented.

Houston will need a similar migration for it to recover. In 2017, from where will those workers come?
   13. BDC Posted: September 05, 2017 at 02:06 PM (#5526246)
What Obama did was nothing but pandering and, by doing so, ###### these folks in the ass. Royally

If so, Republicans who care about DACA people have a golden opportunity at the moment to un-#### them.
   14. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 05, 2017 at 02:12 PM (#5526247)
What Obama did was nothing but pandering and, by doing so, ###### these folks in the ass. Royally


If so, Republicans who care about DACA people have a golden opportunity at the moment to un-#### them.


Yeah, in his desperate attempt to blame Obama he is missing the key bit ... "so what?"

Obama will never run again. For anything. In many respects it is completely irrelevant what is his fault, versus Bush's fault, versus Clinton's fault ... and so on, or even if there is (gasp!) no one to blame at all in the past. The point is now what?

The GOP, led by Trump (LOL) now have to deal with the situation. Even if it is all 100% Obama's fault (including DACA going away in 6 months) the fact remains that the GOP and Trump are in charge of the country now and have to deal with any and all messes. That is part of governing.
   15. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 05, 2017 at 02:14 PM (#5526248)
Hillary Clinton blames the FBI, the Russians, Sexism, the Media, Misogynists, the Polls Bernie Sanders for her loss:
Hillary Clinton casts Bernie Sanders as an unrealistic over-promiser in her new book, according to excerpts posted by a group of Clinton supporters. She said that his attacks against her during the primary caused "lasting damage" and paved the way for "(Donald) Trump's 'Crooked Hillary' campaign."

Clinton, in a book that will be released September 12 entitled "What Happened," said Sanders "had to resort to innuendo and impugning my character" because the two Democrats "agreed on so much."

Their rematch should be quite the grudge match.

EDIT: Almost missed this - it's Anthony Weiner's fault, too!
   16. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: September 05, 2017 at 02:16 PM (#5526249)
If Hill Democrats are willing to compromise and support some of Trump's proposed legal immigration reforms, BDC, then the DACA folks may be un-######, but I'm not holding my breath.

As noted previously, I'm guessing they would rather let the DACA beneficiaries suffer in the hopes of winning a few more votes next year.
   17. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 05, 2017 at 02:16 PM (#5526250)
The actual content of what he did is good,


Not if it was illegal.

But if the courts were to uphold it, it would be good.

Courts have already struck down DAPA and Obama's attempt to expand DACA. (And, again, Obama already admitted he had no authority to do it.)


David, the Supreme Court upheld a lower court's temporary injunction against DACA in 2015. By a 4-4 vote. Nearly three years after Obama first initiated the program, and roughly half a year after he'd attempted to expand it. The legality of DACA was clearly a matter of dispute, and in any case at the time of its implementation there was no way to know for sure how its legal fate would eventually be determined.

Yes, there's clearly no morality that exists outside of what 5 Justices of the Supreme Court might determine. 5 Supreme Court Justices of your liking, that is.

The president violating the law just because he thinks something is better policy? Are you sure you want to endorse that notion, given who's president now?


Again, that's a judgment made in hindsight, regardless of whether or not you may have foreseen that final Supreme Court vote.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Serious question David are you arguing that morality and legality are identical? Because your statements lead one to believe that, but no one else in the entire universe other than possibly you believes that.

There are several legal positivists here who believe exactly that. But, no, that wasn't remotely what I was arguing.

I was arguing that it is not "good" for the president to break the law just because he doesn't like it.


Thanks for the clarification, though your original statement could have been read to go beyond that.
   18. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 05, 2017 at 02:21 PM (#5526251)
(And, again, Obama already admitted he had no authority to do it.)

The legality of DACA was clearly a matter of dispute,
The issue before the Supreme Court was procedural: whether Texas had standing to challenge the policy. Not whether the policy itself was permissible.



Again, that's a judgment made in hindsight,
(And, again, Obama already admitted he had no authority to do it.)
   19. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 05, 2017 at 02:23 PM (#5526252)
Hillary Clinton: Sanders "had to resort to innuendo and impugning my character"


How could he impugn something that doesn't exist?
   20. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 05, 2017 at 02:29 PM (#5526256)
If Hill Democrats are willing to compromise and support some of Trump's proposed legal immigration reforms, BDC, then the DACA folks may be un-######, but I'm not holding my breath.

As noted previously, I'm guessing they would rather let the DACA beneficiaries suffer in the hopes of winning a few more votes next year.


The GOP has a majority in the House and Senate. There is legislation sitting around ready to be passed. The only ones who can bring this to a vote are in the GOP. Bring it to a vote and I bet the Democrats will gladly vote for putting DACA solidly into law.

If you want something from the Democrats in exchange for Democratic votes, well what? Don't just preemptively decide if nothing happens it is the Democrats fault (I know it is your go to, but just this once try something new).

Once more, the only ones who can bring this for a vote in the House is the GOP. Ditto the Senate.
   21. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 05, 2017 at 02:34 PM (#5526259)
(And, again, Obama already admitted he had no authority to do it.)

I'd like to see a link to that admission, presented within the full context of his remarks rather than as some third party's interpretation of those remarks.
   22. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 05, 2017 at 02:36 PM (#5526260)
How to Be an Ineffective President

Charlie Cook: “If you wanted to offer a graduate-school class in how not to be an effective president of the United States, Donald Trump could write the textbook and teach the course.”

“The first lesson would be to cater myopically to your base, alienating those in your party who are not in your core constituency—particularly the congressional leadership and power players who would be the ones instrumental to actually getting anything done. The second lesson would be to offend independent voters, those not married to either party who are at least theoretically open to the arguments from both sides. Finally, the third lesson would be to do everything possible to eliminate any chance of getting defections from the ranks of the other party while riling up the other party’s base, giving them an intensity that they may have lacked when they lost last year’s election.”


Many Trump Voters Only ‘Meh’ About Trump

Last week, FiveThirtyEight reported on a new batch of SurveyMonkey data showing that more than half of the reluctant Trump voters still approve of his performance, his approval rating with this group declined 11 points (from 74 to 63 percent), with fewer strongly approving Trump’s performance (6 percent) than strongly disapproving (14 percent).

The absence of intense support among Trump’s “reluctant” supporters helps highlight a larger and often overlooked pattern in the approval data: Trump’s troubles are even more apparent when it comes to intensity of support.

Again, strong disapproval of Trump (48 percent) is now better than twice as high as strong approval (22 percent), an intensity gap that has been growing.


Pittsburgh focus group tanks Trump

“Outrageous,” “disastrous,” “abject disappointment,” “unique,” “off the scale,” “contemptible,” “crazy”: Donald Trump seems to have lost Pittsburgh, at least based on a focus group held in the city Tuesday night.

The group, a mix of people who voted for Trump or Hillary Clinton (plus one Jill Stein voter), came down hard on the president and Vice President Mike Pence during the session, sponsored by Emory University. Three people called Pence a “puppet,” and several used variations of “waiting in the wings,” though he was also called “quiet” and “reasonable.”


All of this is almost certainly Obama's fault, but still in theory Trump is the President. He needs to fix it.
   23. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: September 05, 2017 at 02:38 PM (#5526262)
Oh, I'm not denying that Hill Republicans need to overcome internal differences and step up as well.
   24. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 05, 2017 at 02:43 PM (#5526264)
(And, again, Obama already admitted he had no authority to do it.)

I'd like to see a link to that admission, presented within the full context of his remarks rather than as some third party's interpretation of those remarks.

Perhaps this will help - an Obama lawyer who worked on DACA:
Sad to say, I agree with the Trump administration that such a challenge to DACA is very likely to succeed.

Much more at link.
   25. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 05, 2017 at 02:46 PM (#5526267)
From that link in #15:
"Some of his supporters, the so-called Bernie Bros, took to harassing my supporters online. It got ugly and more than a little sexist," [Clinton] wrote.

"When I finally challenged Bernie during a debate to name a single time I changed a position or a vote because of a financial contribution, he couldn't come up with anything," Clinton wrote. "Nonetheless, his attacks caused lasting damage, making it harder to unify progressives in the general election and paving the way for Trump's 'Crooked Hillary' campaign."

Is there anything there that isn't true?

To Sanders' credit, he tried his best after the convention to undo the damage he'd done during the primaries, and given the mental derangement of many of the Bernie Bros / Stein supporters, it's likely that these morons wouldn't have voted for her under any set of circumstances. They'd rather have a president who fills his administration with Goldman Sachs executives in key positions than a president who accepted money to make some speeches before them.

But that primary record is there for anyone with eyes to see, even if they choose to ignore it in order to continue with their demonization of Clinton.
   26. Morty Causa Posted: September 05, 2017 at 02:51 PM (#5526271)
It's hard to take you seriously when you serially misrepresent what I've been saying. Once again I've had to re-learn the lesson that it's impossible to have a serious discussion with you about certain subjects.

What are saying that you think I'm not understanding and misrepresenting? And how serious is it?

And while we're at it, I could say when have you ever said, I think this is wrong but it should be followed and enforced, with penalty if necessary.

Do you think the law as it is now should be enforced as to illegal aliens here in this country? Do the citizens of this country have the right to empower their government as they see fit on this issue of illegal immigrants?

I ask this just to clear some preliminary brush.

Now, going from there, how does morality fit in? What is its role as to the law that we now have? (After that, what is its role in changing the law, and does everyone's morality, sense of right and wrong, get to be aired and considered?)

That's a start.



   27. Greg K Posted: September 05, 2017 at 02:53 PM (#5526273)
It's got to be incredibly hard to write a memoir about how it all went wrong that doesn't come off as blaming everyone but yourself.

I'm not sure I'd want to do it unless I was forced...I don't see much upside. I suppose you can point to the spate of political memoirs after 1919 as a kind of success. "It wasn't my fault! The generals held too much power and we were all swept away by broad historical forces beyond our control" salvaged a few reputations for a while.
   28. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 05, 2017 at 02:55 PM (#5526274)
They'd rather have a president who fills his administration with Goldman Sachs executives in key positions than a president who accepted money to make some speeches before them.

True, but the 22nd Amendment prevented Obama from running in 2016.
   29. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 05, 2017 at 02:57 PM (#5526277)
I'm not sure I'd want to do it unless I was forced...I don't see much upside.


It gives some here a chance to relive the glory of the ... um ... day from last November. Sadly, now reality has, like a chicken, come home to roost.
   30. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 05, 2017 at 02:57 PM (#5526278)
(And, again, Obama already admitted he had no authority to do it.)


I'd like to see a link to that admission, presented within the full context of his remarks rather than as some third party's interpretation of those remarks.

Perhaps this will help - an Obama lawyer who worked on DACA:

Sad to say, I agree with the Trump administration that such a challenge to DACA is very likely to succeed.


Much more at link.


That link is exactly what I didn't ask for: A third party's subjective interpretation of Obama's order. I'd asked to see Obama's original statement in full context.

But although you didn't mention this, here's what else Eric Columbus has had to say about the legality of DACA:

DACA is imperiled only because Neil Gorsuch, who is likely skeptical of the program’s constitutionality, sits on the Supreme Court instead of Merrick Garland, who was likely not. Confirmations have consequences. And if Trump actually cared about DACA, he would play out the string even in the face of likely defeat.

Emphasis added.

What was that I was saying about the law only being what 5 Supreme Court Justices say it is?
   31. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:00 PM (#5526280)
Perhaps this will help - an Obama lawyer who worked on DACA:


So some lawyer who worked on it says so after the fact which means Obama himself thinks so? Weak tea. Very weak.
   32. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:03 PM (#5526281)
#26,

I've said all I'm going to say to you about any issue regarding immigration and / or race for at least the next few weeks, and hopefully months, as long as you keep posting comments like #1484 in the previous thread. And no, I'm not going to "rebut" that comment or "address" it, any more than I feel compelled to address Hillary's plot to hide children in the Comet Pizza basement.
   33. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:05 PM (#5526284)
Mouse to Clapper, #31:
Perhaps this will help - an Obama lawyer who worked on DACA:

So some lawyer who worked on it says so after the fact which means Obama himself thinks so? Weak tea. Very weak.



Hey, lay off the man. He said "perhaps."
   34. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:05 PM (#5526285)
What Obama did was nothing but pandering and, by doing so, ###### these folks in the ass.


People aren't always virtue signaling when they do good things, Jason. Sometimes, they're just virtuous.

Blaming Obama for not predicting that his successor would be stupid and destructive enough to sink DACA is like blaming him for handing control of our nuclear arsenal to a Russian puppet. Even a good president can't baby-proof everything - at some point, he has to trust that his successor will be at least a little bit presidential.
   35. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:06 PM (#5526286)
So some lawyer who worked on it says so after the fact which means Obama himself thinks so? Weak tea. Very weak.

Hand wave! Even the key Obama Administration officials confess what Bitter Mouse can't bring himself to admit. Kind of like when he defended to the death Obama's "You can keep your doctor, keep your health plan, and save $2500" whoppers. Perhaps Bitter Mouse should stick to reposting those comforting Daily Kos excerpts?
   36. villageidiom Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:08 PM (#5526288)
Hand wave!
Moving goalposts!
   37. Omineca Greg Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:09 PM (#5526289)
It's got to be incredibly hard to write a memoir about how it all went wrong that doesn't come off as blaming everyone but yourself.

Michael Ignatieff's book about his time as Liberal leader, Fire and Ashes: Success and Failure in Politics is a good book. He works hard at not being self-serving, sometimes he makes it and sometimes he doesn't, but I read it an afternoon; I couldn't put it down. It was incredible to me that someone as talented at written communication as he is could be so abysmal as a politician, but I guess it shouldn't be.
   38. Morty Causa Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:11 PM (#5526290)
Sanders was one of the least in-your-face candidates ever. I think he genuinely tried not to let it devolve into personalities. I'm sure he, too, could come up with a litany of grips about Clinton and Clinton's people and supporters
   39. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:12 PM (#5526292)
Even the key Obama Administration officials confess what Bitter Mouse can't bring himself to admit.


You seem to have trouble with English. One lawyer in the administration is not necessarily a "key administration official" (to say nothing of your putting a plural on it - nice job with the fake out there though) and saying "perhaps" is not "confessing", no matter how much you want it to be so.

Try harder. Do better. This is just sad so far.

EDIT: And yes, it is a major goal post move.
   40. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:14 PM (#5526295)
Hillary Clinton casts Bernie Sanders as an unrealistic over-promiser in her new book, according to excerpts posted by a group of Clinton supporters. She said that his attacks against her during the primary caused "lasting damage" and paved the way for "(Donald) Trump's 'Crooked Hillary' campaign."


"My opponent made it hard for me to win by making accurate and obvious attacks on my character and offering voters a slate of popular policies that I was uninterested in pursuing" doesn't seem like a particularly telling indictment of the Sanders campaign.

At some point, you need to accept that your opponent is allowed to try and win.
   41. Greg K Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:15 PM (#5526296)
I'd be curious to read that. I get the sense that he's realized politics isn't his jam, so I can see him having a bit more latitude in how he presents his failed campaign.

Hmm, upon looking him up I didn't realize Ignatieff is the president of the Central European University now. He's had an interesting few years.
   42. Morty Causa Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:18 PM (#5526302)
32:

Your tinhorn righteousness doesn't begin to cover your cowardice. That bikini is much too scanty.
   43. madvillain Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:25 PM (#5526311)
Clapper talking about Hillary and Jason blaming Obama for Trump's cruel, thoughtless, cynical play on DACA -- sounds about right.

Don't you realize yet Jason that everything you project onto Obama is actually true about Trump? It's trump making the cynical political move here. Trump LOVES the racially-butthurt working class and poor whites that got him elected, he loves the deplorables! They are the ones cheering the hardest at his rallies, they are the ones chanting "lock her up" and "MAGA".

He did this to stroke his ego and get them foaming at the mouth for his next rally. That's the extent of it. On 2nd thought --it's not even a politically smart move long term for the GOP. It's a move that assures Trump that "his people" and "our heritage" will feature heavily at his next rally.
   44. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:31 PM (#5526318)
Note: if you're arguing the technical details of Obama's DACA executive order, you're letting the Trump #### holsters set the dialog again. The current question isn't Obama. It's Trump and the GOP's desire to #### children up the ass.
   45. baravelli Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:32 PM (#5526319)
That link is exactly what I didn't ask for: A third party's subjective interpretation of Obama's order. I'd asked to see Obama's original statement in full context.


Maybe closer to what you are looking for:

http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2016/apr/25/bob-goodlatte/goodlatte-obama-said-22-times-he-lacks-power-chang/

http://www.factcheck.org/2017/01/obamas-whoppers/ go down to "Immigration:"

http://www.factcheck.org/2014/11/obamas-immigration-amnesia/

I'll admit to only skimming these, but it looks like they also include links to videos that should provide full(er) context.
   46. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:33 PM (#5526321)
it's not even a politically smart move long term for the GOP


It is a terrible move for the GOP. But then again Trump doesn't care about the GOP in the slightest. One of the reasons I didn't support Sanders in the Democratic primary is he is not a Democrat. You want the President to be part of a political party, so they act in a more restrained fashion. The many parts of "their" party can influence the President, and the President is moderated by the knowledge that their legacy is more than just them and their actions.

I was worried Sanders wouldn't have close enough connections to the Democratic Party and Trump is that x100.
   47. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:34 PM (#5526324)
43

it's not even a politically smart move long term for the GOP. It's a move that assures Trump that "his people" and "our heritage" will feature heavily at his next rally.


Every time he pulls one of these, I feel like Willy Wonka, half-heartedly admonishing, "wait...stop...don't..." knowing full well that the dopey kid will neither wait, stop, nor not and end up being turned into oompa-loompa fodder of some sort.
   48. madvillain Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:35 PM (#5526327)
Note: if you're arguing the technical details of Obama's DACA executive order, you're letting the Trump #### holsters set the dialog again. The current question isn't Obama. It's Trump and the GOP's desire to #### children up the ass.


bingo.
   49. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:38 PM (#5526329)
That link is exactly what I didn't ask for: A third party's subjective interpretation of Obama's order. I'd asked to see Obama's original statement in full context.

C'mon, it's not like Obama left any doubt, even before he acted, he's on record numerous times saying he couldn't just unilaterally ignore the immigration laws:
“I swore an oath to uphold the laws on the books …. Now, I know some people want me to bypass Congress and change the laws on my own. Believe me, the idea of doing things on my own is very tempting. I promise you. Not just on immigration reform. But that's not how our system works. That’s not how our democracy functions. That's not how our Constitution is written.”

That's just one of many such statements listed. And just to preempt the inevitable parsing of Obama's numerous statements to contrive an argument that he didn't completely reverse himself, your beloved fact-checkers say it's a royal flip-flop and that you'd have to be suffering from immigration amnesia not to notice the contradiction.

Again, the Obama Administration departed from the interpretation of every previous president, so it shouldn't be a surprise that their position was found to be legally vulnerable.
   50. Lassus Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:40 PM (#5526333)
At some point, you need to accept that your opponent is allowed to try and win.

Truth.


"My opponent made it hard for me to win by making accurate and obvious attacks on my character"

Opinion.
   51. madvillain Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:41 PM (#5526335)
Again, the Obama Administration departed from the interpretation of every previous president, so it shouldn't be a surprise that their position was found to be legally vulnerable.


That's the important thing. Not real lives, just rhetoric and political wrangling points for old, rich white guys like yourself and Trump to pin on the donkey. You are asses, all of you. Go #### yourself. This is real people, not a ####### thought experiment about the American Legal system vis a vis DACA. Obama did what he felt was right because like decent people, of which your side has few, he assumed the human cost of overturning his act would trump anything else.

But, as we've found with the GOP, just when you think they can't go any lower, they find a lower road.

Sickening and vile, just like Trump.
   52. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:45 PM (#5526338)

By the way, Trump's DACA order is indefensible regardless of one's position on the underlying issue. If the president has no authority to authorize these people to remain in the U.S., then Trump is obligated to end DACA now. Not in six months. Conversely, if he has the authority to defer for six months, then he has the authority to defer for two years, too.
   53. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:47 PM (#5526341)
That's the important thing. Not real lives, just rhetoric and political wrangling points for old, rich white guys like yourself and Trump to pin on the donkey. You are asses, all of you. Go #### yourself. This is real people, not a ####### thought experiment about the American Legal system vis a vis DACA. Obama did what he felt was right because like decent people, of which your side has few, he assumed the human cost of overturning his act would trump anything else.
Again, one would think that with Donald Trump sitting in the Oval Office, people would understand the importance of the rule of law. "I'll do whatever the #### I want, and see if they can stop me" is a dictator, not a president.
   54. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:48 PM (#5526343)
Clapper talking about Hillary . . .

You realize I had nothing to do with Hillary's decision to write a campaign book, the content of said book, or the media's determination as to what carefully leaked pre-publication details are "newsworthy"? Is there some reason that discussion of who is to blame for Hillary's loss (NOT HILLARY, APPARENTLY!) isn't worthy of OTP discussion when Hillary herself keeps raising the topic?
   55. madvillain Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:51 PM (#5526345)
Again, one would think that with Donald Trump sitting in the Oval Office, people would understand the importance of the rule of law. "I'll do whatever the #### I want, and see if they can stop me" is a dictator, not a president.


if you want to go here, I'll direct you to Dubya's office of legal counsel.


At least we know where Clapper and David get their talking points, from the official WH release:

President Donald J. Trump Restores Responsibility and the Rule of Law to Immigration


How the #### is a kid responsible for being here? how the #### does evicting these kids bring back the Rule of Law? How is it even a A TOP PROBLEM IN IMMIGRATION? HOW IS IT A TOP PROBLEM IN THE US TODAY?

It's. Not. Even. Close. It feels a lot like the night of the travel ban here today. It's a sickening and infuriating day when such a hateful, ineffective policy is enacted as a quid pro quo thanks to the racists that comprise Trump's ever dwindling base.
   56. Nasty Nate Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:51 PM (#5526346)

You realize I had nothing to do with Hillary's decision to write a campaign book, the content of said book, or the media's determination as to what carefully leaked pre-publication details are "newsworthy"? Is there some reason that discussion of who is to blame for Hillary's loss (NOT HILLARY, APPARENTLY!) isn't worthy of OTP discussion when Hillary herself keeps raising the topic?
So, Hillary and the media are forcing you to keep talking about her?
   57. DJS, the Digital Dandy Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:52 PM (#5526349)
Go #### yourself. This is real people, not a ####### thought experiment about the American Legal system vis a vis DACA.

This is the same line of reasoning Trump uses for crap that he wants. And the same line of reasoning that would allow Trump to do a lot of awful things outside the law. We live in a society of laws, so go #### yourself harder and first.
   58. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:56 PM (#5526352)
“Ending DACA now gives [us a] chance 2 restore Rule of Law. Delaying so Leadership can push Amnesty is Republican suicide,”


Trump doesn't care about the GOP in the slightest.

The blind squirrel finds a nut!
   59. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:59 PM (#5526353)
That's the important thing. Not real lives, just rhetoric and political wrangling points for old, rich white guys like yourself and Trump to pin on the donkey. You are asses, all of you. Go #### yourself. This is real people, not a ####### thought experiment about the American Legal system vis a vis DACA. Obama did what he felt was right because like decent people, of which your side has few, he assumed the human cost of overturning his act would trump anything else.

But, as we've found with the GOP, just when you think they can't go any lower, they find a lower road. Sickening and vile, just like Trump.

Trying to justify usurpation of power by claiming it's for a good cause is the path to tyranny. There's nothing special about the immigration laws that allows a president to just ignore them. You either believe in the rule of law, or you don't - you can't pick & chose based on your whims of the day.
   60. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 05, 2017 at 03:59 PM (#5526354)
This is the same line of reasoning Trump uses for crap that he wants. And the same line of reasoning that would allow Trump to do a lot of awful things outside the law


Thank you, Dan. It's not Trump whose put a pillow over the face of a dying liberalism, but Democrats.
   61. madvillain Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:00 PM (#5526355)
We live in a society of laws, so go #### yourself harder and first.


How precious. The Law! As if "The Law" was in any danger, as if disorder was coming if Trump didn't end DACA. What a joke.

Thank you, Dan. It's not Trump whose put a pillow over the face of a dying liberalism, but Democrats.


In 20 years I'm sure we'll look back at the end of DACA as a critical turning point! When "dying liberalism" was finally given air to breathe!
   62. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:00 PM (#5526356)
You either believe in the rule of law, or you don't

They dont.
   63. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:01 PM (#5526357)
Opinion.


For the sake of argument, can you provide an example of a Sanders attack against Clinton that wasn't accurate (or, I guess, obvious)?
   64. Nose army. Beef diaper? (CoB) Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:02 PM (#5526360)
Hurricane Irma is already one for the record books.

On Tuesday, the National Weather Service reported the storm had become a Category 5 with sustained winds of 185 miles per hour. That means Irma now ranks among the most powerful hurricanes (as measured by windspeed) ever recorded.

According to the NWS, Irma is the strongest storm ever in the Atlantic (not counting those that reached the Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico). And it’s not far off from the all-time record hurricane wind speed of 190 mph.


Link

Sounds like the chance Irma tracks away from land and the Florida coast is diminishing ...
   65. DavidFoss Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:02 PM (#5526361)
I'm not sure I'd want to do it unless I was forced...I don't see much upside.


Therapy? Getting her story written down so that she doesn't have to keep re-writing it in her head or be asked the same questions repeatedly in interviews? I'm glad the book exists for the sake of future historians but I can't imagine people *buying* it. The interesting parts will all get leaked.

I don't understand the long book tour, though. I would have capped it at a month. Maybe she wants us all to tire of her so that she can go somewhere without anyone caring? I mean, what are John Kerry & Mitt Romney doing today? Does anyone care?

   66. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:05 PM (#5526364)
Mads, I find it hard to believe you ever worked in politics.
   67. The Good Face Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:05 PM (#5526365)
That's the important thing. Not real lives, just rhetoric and political wrangling points for old, rich white guys like yourself and Trump to pin on the donkey. You are asses, all of you. Go #### yourself. This is real people, not a ####### thought experiment about the American Legal system vis a vis DACA. Obama did what he felt was right because like decent people, of which your side has few, he assumed the human cost of overturning his act would trump anything else.

But, as we've found with the GOP, just when you think they can't go any lower, they find a lower road.

Sickening and vile, just like Trump.


Stuff I care about is self evidently good and noble, justifying breaking or ignoring any existing law. And if you disagree with me, you're a Nazi!

Thank you, Dan. It's not Trump whose put a pillow over the face of a dying liberalism, but Democrats.


As always, Trump is a symptom, elected because people have lost confidence in the rule of law.
   68. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:06 PM (#5526367)
So, Hillary and the media are forcing you to keep talking about her?

No, I obviously find the topic somewhat amusing. But the question is why so many of the Dems here want to treat Hillary as a non-person. Is she no longer newsworthy? Should her book be ignored here and elsewhere? Is the subject of her loss just too painful for OTP's delicate snowflakes?
   69. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:07 PM (#5526369)
Sounds like the chance Irma tracks away from land and the Florida coast is diminishing ...

Florida's best hope is that some kind of combination of PR, DR, and Cuba take the brunt.
   70. Nasty Nate Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:08 PM (#5526371)
No, I obviously find the topic somewhat amusing.
Yeah, I'm sure that's your motivation...
   71. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:10 PM (#5526373)
We live in a society of laws, so go #### yourself harder and first.

Signed, a southern slave owner ca 1860
   72. Hot Wheeling American Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:11 PM (#5526374)
In 2012, on the road to becoming the leader and moral compass of the Republican Party, Donald Trump provided his thoughts on immigration to Fox and Friends.
   73. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:12 PM (#5526376)
But the question is why so many of the Dems here want to treat Hillary as a non-person. Is she no longer newsworthy?


Honestly? Not all that newsworthy, no. She ran, she lost, and now she's out of power and probably too old to ever mount a serious campaign again. Just seems kind of weird and pointless to spend so much time and effort on her, compared to Romney or Kerry or Dukakis or whomever.
   74. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:13 PM (#5526378)
But the question is why so many of the Dems here want to treat Hillary as a non-person. Is she no longer newsworthy?
She's as newsworthy as Mitt Romney is, but Republicans need HRC around to deflect attention away from them and the leader of their party.
   75. madvillain Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:13 PM (#5526379)
Signed, a southern slave owner ca 1860


I'd hazard a guess our "Law and Order" folks here today live in lily white enclaves anyways. What "Law and Order" will be restored outside their swimming pools and leafy cul-de-sacs? Trump's dystopian America, as over run by the brown and black mongrel races, simply doesn't exist outside of the fevered dreams of The Daily Stormer, /TheDonald, and other repositieries of hate both online and off.

Today is a not so subtle reminder to the darkies that America is a white country. "Law and Order" is simply the familiar political euphemism for reminding the minorities of that fact.
   76. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:16 PM (#5526380)
As always, Trump is a symptom, elected because people have lost confidence in the rule of law.


Assumes facts very much not in evidence. And is also dumb.
   77. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:17 PM (#5526381)
As always, Trump is a symptom, elected because people have lost confidence in the rule of law.

Trump's big offense is suggesting US Citizenship should have some meaning, and then backing it up with action. Witness Americans choosing sides with China and PRNK over the US, and other childish responses. (See HRC book tour)

Trump is very much the President we deserve.
   78. Lassus Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:19 PM (#5526383)
Witness Americans choosing sides with China and PRNK

I can't believe I'm going to ask this, but WTF are you talking about in regards to Americans choosing sides with North Korea over the US? You mean people not wanting the US to obliterate millions of people? That kind of choosing sides?


Trump is very much the President we deserve.

He's certainly the one you deserve.
   79. DavidFoss Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:20 PM (#5526385)
But the question is why so many of the Dems here want to treat Hillary as a non-person. Is she no longer newsworthy?


The GOP treats her as a non-person. She's their piñata. When the GOP is not having a good day, you can always count on a good Clinton story over at Fox to make them feel better.
   80. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:21 PM (#5526386)
Florida's best hope is that some kind of combination of PR, DR, and Cuba take the brunt.


Voted for Trump. #### 'em.
   81. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:22 PM (#5526388)
Trump's big offense is suggesting US Citizenship should have some meaning


No, you simpering ####### ####, Trump's biggest offense is being an authoritarian fascist in bed with white supremacists and Nazis. You ####### idiot.
   82. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:23 PM (#5526389)
Stuff I care about is self evidently good and noble, justifying breaking or ignoring any existing law. And if you disagree with me, you're a Nazi!


This is nonsense (of course), but for the rest of you here, with a working brain, there are two reasons that justify "breaking the law".

The first is disagreement about the law. Presidents very often take actions that are challenged, go through the courts and end up adjudicated one way or another. Sometimes you don't know the exact extent of the law until the courts say "Nope, too far." This is essentially what Obama did with DACA. He built on previous President's actions, pushing the boundary, and left it to the courts to decide where exactly the line was.

The second is Civil Disobedience. Basically breaking an unjust law, on purpose and publicly, and accepting the punishment in hopes of helping change the law (I am simplifying a bit, try to not be overly pedantic).

Obviously, neither of these fit in TGF's weird and hyperbolic nonsense.
   83. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:24 PM (#5526390)
Voted for Trump. #### 'em.


So did the state you live in, by the way. Just saying.
   84. Lassus Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:25 PM (#5526391)
Voted for Trump. #### 'em.

Should be heading for Georgia, then.

edit: Dammit.
   85. BDC Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:27 PM (#5526393)
Is she no longer newsworthy?

Yup. Or nope, whichever means "she is no longer newsworthy."

Should her book be ignored here and elsewhere?

Yup.

Hillary Clinton is literally history. Which (IMO at any rate) means she'll make for fascinating reading in about 25 years, but she's impossible to put in much perspective at the moment.

And by "fascinating reading" I mean people writing more objectively about her, not reading her memoirs. Good grief. I'd rather watch slow-motion videos of the early rounds of tennis tournaments.
   86. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:29 PM (#5526394)
How the #### is a kid responsible for being here? how the #### does evicting these kids bring back the Rule of Law? How is it even a A TOP PROBLEM IN IMMIGRATION? HOW IS IT A TOP PROBLEM IN THE US TODAY?
This isn't about the kids violating the law; this is about Obama doing so. Congress has the authority to set immigration policy. Congress decides who can legally come to and/or remain in the U.S. Congress in fact set those policies. These people came here/remained in violation of those policies.¹ Given limited resources, the president has the inherent authority to prioritize certain categories of illegal immigrant for deportation, but he has no lawful authority to say, "You know what? I don't agree with the policies Congress has chosen, so I'm going to authorize people to immigrate/remain that Congress forbid from doing so."


¹In an almost certainly futile attempt to head off the inevitable silliness: yes, some of the DACA beneficiaries were brought here with no choice in the matter by their parents. That is a defense to a criminal prosecution. It is not a defense to deportation, however, because deportation isn't punishment. If your parents rob a bank and buy you a bicycle for Christmas with the proceeds, you will not go to jail -- but you don't get to keep the bike, either.
   87. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:29 PM (#5526395)
Sounds like the chance Irma tracks away from land and the Florida coast is diminishing ...


Proof that God opposes tax cuts.

Mitch and Paul are gonna need to whip the votes for an omnibus tax reform/Texas aid/Florida aid/DACA fix/debt ceiling raise/confirmation hearings/no shutdown bill. In the next 16 days of sessions.
   88. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:31 PM (#5526398)
You mean people not wanting the US to obliterate millions of people?

How many people you think those two governments have obliterated? The status quo with PRNK is a failure, one backed to the hilt by the Chinese.
   89. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:32 PM (#5526399)
This isn't about the kids violating the law; this is about Obama doing so.


No it really is not. This is about what GOP President Trump is doing and what the GOP led Congress will do. And of course how everyone will react.

If it were about Obama's order exceeding the limits of his authority we would be talking about a case going through the courts and being overturned by them. The courts can decide on the legality (or lack therein) of Obama's actions, Trump doesn't get to.
   90. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:32 PM (#5526400)
Good grief. I'd rather watch slow-motion videos of the early rounds of tennis tournaments.


I think it'll be the literary equivalent of that Andy Warhol movie where he just pointed a camera at the Empire State Building for eight hours.
   91. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:33 PM (#5526401)
Mitch and Paul are gonna need to whip the votes for an omnibus tax reform/Texas aid/Florida aid/DACA fix/debt ceiling raise/confirmation hearings/no shutdown bill. In the next 16 days of sessions.


Hey! Don't forget the Zombie ACA repeal dies this month as well. Get cracking GOP!
   92. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:33 PM (#5526402)
Trying to justify usurpation of power by claiming it's for a good cause is the path to tyranny. There's nothing special about the immigration laws that allows a president to just ignore them. You either believe in the rule of law, or you don't - you can't pick & chose based on your whims of the day.
Well, you can, if you're prepared to live with the consequences. Helping slaves escape, sure. But I don't see how deporting foreigners who came here unlawfully back to their home country became the hill for liberals to die on.
   93. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:33 PM (#5526403)
How many people you think those two governments have obliterated? The status quo with PRNK is a failure, one backed to the hilt by the Chinese.


Lookit little "anti-war" Perros, lining up like the the good little lemming.
   94. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:34 PM (#5526404)
If it were about Obama's order exceeding the limits of his authority we would be talking about a case going through the courts and being overturned by them. The courts can decide on the legality (or lack therein) of Obama's actions, Trump doesn't get to.
That is very very very very very very very very very wrong. You couldn't be wronger if you were Andy, mixed with SBB. Someone who learned everything he knew about law from watching Seinfeld would be less wrong than that.
   95. Heart of Matt Harvey Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:35 PM (#5526406)
Trump's biggest offense is being an authoritarian fascist in bed with white supremacists and Nazis.

A democrarically-elected President upholding the rule of law, Mr. Street Fighting Man.
   96. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:35 PM (#5526407)
So did the state you live in, by the way.


And if I were to happen on one of those confederate flag waiving, Trump/Pence bumper sticker touting ####### drowning in a flood, and they weren't first-tier blood relations? Mmmmmm, popcorn.
   97. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:35 PM (#5526408)
But I don't see how deporting foreigners who came here unlawfully back to their home country became the hill for liberals to die on.


It's easy -- liberalism became modern liberalism. (*)

Mark Lilla's tremendous new book is the one to read on the topic. Virtually every word and thought is spot-on, if unintentionally derivative of this space.

(*) And Democrats lost a dramatic amount of actual political power.
   98. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:35 PM (#5526409)
But I don't see how deporting foreigners who came here unlawfully back to their home country became the hill for liberals to die on.


Speaking on behalf of liberals, I think we'd prefer that it end up being the hill that the other guys die on.
   99. Lassus Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:37 PM (#5526410)
How many people you think those two governments have obliterated? The status quo with PRNK is a failure, one backed to the hilt by the Chinese.

Nice zero answer to what I asked.
   100. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 05, 2017 at 04:38 PM (#5526411)
Witness Americans choosing sides with China and PRNK over the US,
Can someone tell me why OJ has chosen to rename the DPRK as the PRNK? Is there some deeper psychological significance to this?
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