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Monday, August 07, 2017

OTP 7 August 2017: Women’s Rights, Baseball And Politics: 12 Talks Not To Miss At Martha’s Vineyard Book Festival

“Tweets, Leaks, and Turmoil: Covering the Trump White House”

This sold-out opening panel (the only event that requires paid tickets) features the subject that has embroiled the nation and every corner of social media: the White House.

Ashley Parker (Washington Post) and Glenn Thrush (New York Times), highly regarded White House correspondents from dueling papers, will discuss covering the administration in a period of uncontrolled leaks, Twitter feuds and shake-ups. Specific details will likely be determined by whatever President Trump tweets that day.

 

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 07, 2017 at 07:39 AM | 2147 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: books, politics

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   1801. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 08:11 PM (#5512052)
YR and I are gonna enjoy a ballgame together in a few weeks, and some of you mofo's ears are gonna be burning.


Just remember if the Kiss Cam lands on us, I'm taken.

Dance-off Cam? All bets are off. YR can get jiggy.
   1802. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: August 12, 2017 at 08:17 PM (#5512053)
Speaking of bets, what do you think of Mayweather-McGregor, YR? I'm not really a boxing nor an MMA fan, and I've placed a total of one sports bet in my life, but I'm thinking of putting a chunk down on Mayweather. The line sounded off to me when I first heard it, it's only gotten more enticing since, and everyone who I respect says it's the easiest bet in the history of sports...
   1803. Joe Bivens, Floundering Pumpkin Posted: August 12, 2017 at 08:20 PM (#5512055)
We're gonna help MAGA. A yankees fan and a red sox fan sitting side by side, peacefully.
   1804. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: August 12, 2017 at 08:26 PM (#5512062)
And if you can do that with YR, what excuse do the counter-protesters have for their uppityness?
   1805. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 08:27 PM (#5512063)
Look, you're more forthright than most on your side when it comes to calling out idiocy from others on your side. But it seems like it always comes with a helping of "but what about the Democrats who did such and such...?" Just once it would be nice to say "Yes, that was an idiotic thing someone on my side did." and end it. Plenty of those on my side, including me, do and have done.
I get what you're saying, Misirlou, and that's pretty much what I did earlier today.
   1806. Sebastian Posted: August 12, 2017 at 08:28 PM (#5512065)
A helicopter crash in Charlottesville, that killed two people, is now somehow linked to the protests. My French isn’t that good, but Le Monde says, that that is what the police said, “without giving further detail”.
   1807. SBB, Live from the Alt-Center Posted: August 12, 2017 at 08:31 PM (#5512067)
The American republic is not going to survive social media. Seventy-percent-plus chance that's accurate.
   1808. Tin Angel Posted: August 12, 2017 at 08:34 PM (#5512068)
Good point SBB. Fascists don't kill people, social media kills people. You ####### moron.
   1809. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 12, 2017 at 08:37 PM (#5512070)
I just do not understand how private entities shutting down speech even touches on the right of freedom of speech. Because that comes up here and elsewhere every time somebody has to cancel an appearance. Does the freedom of speech include a right to be heard? If not then surely marchers and protesters are availing themselves of the exact same right. And in the marketplace of voices the loudest one wins.

Sebastian's preference for Brownshirt regulation of others' speech strikes me as quite inferior to our 1st Amendment. But his right to be an idiot is protected, although I wouldn't recommend that he come to this country and try to regulate anyone else's speech.
   1810. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 08:38 PM (#5512071)
And of course I never said it was just the liberal media that helped Trump win the GOP nomination...

Jay Cost:
Joe continues to gesticulate wildly against Trump in the hope that we all forget 2016.
Responding to Scarborough's comment:
So this is what Donald Trump meant when he talked about "American Carnage." And the blood is now on his hands.
   1811. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 08:39 PM (#5512073)
Sebastian's preference for Brownshirt regulation of others' speech strikes me as quite inferior to our 1st Amendment.
Wow, I had missed that remark. Unreal.
   1812. Sebastian Posted: August 12, 2017 at 08:40 PM (#5512074)
But his right to be an idiot is protected

In your country. Fat lot of good that does me here.
   1813. Rickey! will gladly sacrifice your janitor Posted: August 12, 2017 at 08:44 PM (#5512078)
From what I can find, the helicopter was a police vehicle that crashed. I doubt anyone, either Nazi or counterprotester, has anti-aircraft capabilities.
   1814. Sebastian Posted: August 12, 2017 at 08:45 PM (#5512079)
Wow, I had missed that remark. Unreal.

As soon as somebody can explain how your apocryphal Brownshirts aren’t just as protected by the first amendment, I’ll get more real. But no less idiotic.
   1815. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 08:45 PM (#5512080)
Speaking of bets, what do you think of Mayweather-McGregor, YR? I'm not really a boxing nor an MMA fan, and I've placed a total of one sports bet in my life, but I'm thinking of putting a chunk down on Mayweather. The line sounded off to me when I first heard it, it's only gotten more enticing since, and everyone who I respect says it's the easiest bet in the history of sports.


I think I've written about this fight briefly somewhere on BBTF but I'll probably do something more in-depth before the fight like I'm doing on most of the forums I frequent. What sort of odds are you being offered?
   1816. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 08:46 PM (#5512081)
From what I can find, the helicopter was a police vehicle that crashed. I doubt anyone, either Nazi or counterprotester, has anti-aircraft capabilities.
Good point, but leave it to the media to lead readers to assume the violence was the proximate cause of the deadly crash.
   1817. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 08:47 PM (#5512082)
We're gonna help MAGA. A yankees fan and a red sox fan sitting side by side, peacefully.


Wait, you didn't tell me you were a Red Sox fan.
   1818. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 08:49 PM (#5512084)
According to news reports, this is the suspect.
   1819. SBB, Live from the Alt-Center Posted: August 12, 2017 at 08:49 PM (#5512085)
Good point SBB. Fascists don't kill people, social media kills people. You ####### moron.


Exhibit A.
   1820. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 12, 2017 at 08:50 PM (#5512087)
In your country. Fat lot of good that does me here.


#MWTHSLGA!

Make wherever the hell Sebastian lives great again.

or

Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, Saturday at LaGuardia.
   1821. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 08:56 PM (#5512090)
According to news reports, this is the suspect.


Your pals at /pol already identified the wrong guy and doxxed him as an antifa agitator. Guy apparently wasn't even in the vicinity and was at a wedding with dozens of witnessss.
   1822. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 12, 2017 at 08:56 PM (#5512091)
As soon as somebody can explain how your apocryphal Brownshirts aren’t just as protected by the first amendment, I’ll get more real. But no less idiotic.

Apparently Sebastian's country prohibits computer search engines as part of its "superior" speech regulation code, leaving him totally ignorant on important subjects. Tragic. Or, he could be trolling. At BBTF-OTP? Sad.
   1823. Joe Bivens, Floundering Pumpkin Posted: August 12, 2017 at 09:00 PM (#5512092)
You get +1600 on a 1st round McGregor KO. That's his only chance. I'd put 20 bucks on it, is all.

All the other odds suck. -350 no thanks
   1824. Howie Menckel Posted: August 12, 2017 at 09:00 PM (#5512093)
so Jeffrey Lord - that guy CNN just fired - was on the radio the other day.

now, I don't get the deal with this Lord guy (or really anything since early November).

but this is his claimed sequence:

he says Media Matters has been trying to get conservative radio voices fired by any means necessary (plausible, given that David Brock was a right-winger in the 1990s who would do anything to destroy the Clintons before he switched teams). the latest tactics, he says, are threatening any sponsors of these shows with dire adverse economic results if they cancel their ad biys. of course if they do, that can kill the show.

Lord calls this sort of behavior "fascist," which is debatable - but clearly there is a point in which desires to achieve a result can reach that level. maybe this is it, maybe it's not.

he had written a piece for The American Spectator, he says, in which as part of the proffer he sarcastically suggests what a leftist rewrite of the Constitution (or maybe Bill of Rights) would look like - writing something like it wasn't clear yet if "Sieg Heil" would make the new cut. (yes, Godwin's Law and all that.)

Twitter war ensues, and Lord tweets "Sieg Heil" at a leftist. they claim it as a sign that he's a Nazi sympathizer - which afaik is ridiculous - rather than a continuation of his argument that the left trying to stifle speech is Fascist conduct.

it works, and he's fired. Lord claims that's a sign that this "fascism" is working - and that we should all be troubled by this.

I feel like a juror who just got the defense pitch, and now I need the prosecution's side. what are the biggest holes in his case? I assume there are many.
   1825. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: August 12, 2017 at 09:01 PM (#5512094)
I think I've written about this fight briefly somewhere on BBTF but I'll probably do something more in-depth before the fight like I'm doing on most of the forums I frequent. What sort of odds are you being offered?
Some guy just made headlines betting $880k at -550. I think most books are offering similar odds right now, but I haven't searched much yet, as the consensus is that the odds will shift even more toward McGregor as the fight approaches. Never been so intrigued by the prospects of betting at 1/5.
   1826. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: August 12, 2017 at 09:02 PM (#5512096)
All the other odds suck. -350 no thanks

Where do you see -350?

edit: I'm assuming that was a typo and you meant +350 for McGregor?
   1827. Sebastian Posted: August 12, 2017 at 09:04 PM (#5512097)
Misirlou, That’s the guy who came very close to winning our last presidential election with Steve King. I think that they were watching Trump’s inauguration together, but I can’t confirm that.

Make Austria Great Again doesn’t even need a new twitter thing. I just don’t know how all those former Yugoslav republics feel about it.
   1828. JJ1986 Posted: August 12, 2017 at 09:09 PM (#5512099)
Twitter war ensues, and Lord tweets "Sieg Heil" at a leftist. they claim it as a sign that he's a Nazi sympathizer - which afaik is ridiculous - rather than a continuation of his argument that the left trying to stifle speech is Fascist conduct.
It could be both a continuation of his argument and offensive.
   1829. madvillain Posted: August 12, 2017 at 09:15 PM (#5512101)
Caution -- non binary political thinking ahead.

Anybody read the June Atlantic? What a pile of horse ####. This is state of progressive journalism? I was doing some sauna reading (best they had available today as I couldn't find a New Yorker) and the two articles I read were both just awful. One was by Graeme Wood, that was, ostensibly, about the origins of Richard Spencer and his thinking. In reality it was about the author's ego and how in so many words he couldn't believe Spencer, that dull, "mediocre" schoolboy turned racist hero, who he had gone to prep school with, who misquoted Shakespeare in his yearbook quote -- was more famous than he, the woke ass scholar that went to the Ivy League and writes for the Atlantic.

It was unreadable and to be fair I skipped the middle and just read the beginning and end, those parts seemed more about Spencer.

The cover story was even worse
, a "confessional" (ha) memoir by the son of a landed old money Filipino family about his family's 21st century slave, which he mostly just used as a muse and object by his own admission:

Here's a sickening sample:

It was so easy to make Lola happy. We took her on family vacations, but she was as excited to go to the farmer’s market down the hill. She became a wide-eyed kid on a field trip: “Look at those zucchinis!” The first thing she did every morning was open all the blinds in the house, and at each window she’d pause to look outside.

And she taught herself to read. It was remarkable. Over the years, she’d somehow learned to sound out letters. She did those puzzles where you find and circle words within a block of letters. Her room had stacks of word-puzzle booklets, thousands of words circled in pencil. Every day she watched the news and listened for words she recognized. She triangulated them with words in the newspaper, and figured out the meanings. She came to read the paper every day, front to back. Dad used to say she was simple. I wondered what she could have been if, instead of working the rice fields at age 8, she had learned to read and write.


Yikes. WHY THE #### DIDN'T YOU TEACH HER TO READ BRUH? IT'S THE LEAST YOU COULD HAVE DONE.

The whole thing, which I linked above, is worth it just to get a throrough accounting of it, and what an awful editorial decision it was to publish it. It would be one thing to write all that (and more) if the author at any point has a serious reckoning of himself, as even Eichmann did while on trial --
but it never comes.

Before I googled the story I had no idea about the backlash, but it's extensive apparently. Good.
   1830. Joe Bivens, Floundering Pumpkin Posted: August 12, 2017 at 09:16 PM (#5512103)
It was probably -550 and i read it wrong. I still wouldn't take that.
   1831. Chicago Joe Posted: August 12, 2017 at 09:16 PM (#5512104)
I'm still waiting for Hill Democrats to condemn Antifa


Waiting for Democrats to condemn antifascism?
   1832. Sebastian Posted: August 12, 2017 at 09:23 PM (#5512107)
Apparently Sebastian's country prohibits computer search engines as part of its "superior" speech regulation code, leaving him totally ignorant on important subjects. Tragic. Or, he could be trolling. At BBTF-OTP? Sad.

I do use DuckDuckGo, so I am misled and blinded by the tgbqliberalist world order, I know. But I never said that “speech regulation code” I know is “superior”. I said that it was different, which makes yours hard to understand. David tried to help (as much as a libertarian ever can) and Misirlou was funny. You’re just being weird.

What am I even supposed to look up. Wikipedia says that the first amendment starts with “Congress shall make no law”. And then?
   1833. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 12, 2017 at 09:27 PM (#5512110)
Wikipedia says that the first amendment starts with “Congress shall make no law”.


And the current Congress is following those instructions.
   1834. Omineca Greg Posted: August 12, 2017 at 09:32 PM (#5512113)
Smoke in the Omineca just reached 175 µg/m³. Street lights came on.

Serious question about the First Amendment: Does it protect a right to promote the overthrow of the government? The US doesn't seem very Коммунистическая friendly, but are you free to be a Red if you go about it the right way? When people were getting nabbed by HUAC (sounds like what I'm doing with all this smoke!), did they have to rise to a certain level of pinkoness?
   1835. Srul Itza Posted: August 12, 2017 at 09:35 PM (#5512117)
You can't pretend to be this dense.


Which would mean . . .
   1836. Howie Menckel Posted: August 12, 2017 at 09:39 PM (#5512119)
It could be both a continuation of his argument and offensive.

agreed. given the context, what I know so far would suggest a suspension but not termination. I also don't know the whole story. plausible to think CNN was looking for an excuse and.... but if so, perhaps a little irony to the fatal bullet.
   1837. BDC Posted: August 12, 2017 at 09:46 PM (#5512122)
Serious question about the First Amendment: Does it protect your right to promote the overthrow of the government?

As I understand it from American history, you can advocate overthrowing the government (publish, orate, blog, whatever) as long as you don't do anything about it. Saying Congress should be dissolved and elections cancelled is fine. Organizing a bunch of yahoos to shut down the Capitol and polling places is not.

The federal government tried to outlaw sedition during the Napoleonic wars and the First World War. Those Sedition Acts would not pass muster today. The Civil War is unique, in that sedition quite actively led to rebellion and was suppressed in many different ways. If we get to that point again, I don't think anyone has a clue as to what would be constitutional.

As always I await legal review :)
   1838. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: August 12, 2017 at 09:49 PM (#5512124)
plausible to think CNN was looking for an excuse and.... but if so, perhaps a little irony to the fatal bullet.
The real irony is that, just a few days later, a bunch of self-proclaimed conservatives made the news marching around waving Nazi flags and chanting Nazi slogans.
   1839. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 09:51 PM (#5512126)
it works, and he's fired. Lord claims that's a sign that this "fascism" is working - and that we should all be troubled by this.
plausible to think CNN was looking for an excuse and.... but if so, perhaps a little irony to the fatal bullet.
Jeffrey Lord was an awful "contributor" but this was just CNN's way of washing their hands of the dude without giving him any severance pay. Pathetic.
   1840. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 09:53 PM (#5512128)
Waiting for Democrats to condemn antifascism?
Antifa != antifascism.
   1841. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 09:54 PM (#5512129)
The real irony is that, just a few days later, a bunch of self-proclaimed conservatives made the news marching around waving Nazi flags and chanting Nazi slogans.
? ? ?
   1842. Rickey! will gladly sacrifice your janitor Posted: August 12, 2017 at 10:03 PM (#5512131)
Waiting for Democrats to condemn antifascism?


"Antifa" is the group of counter protesters who Clapper is mentioning in passing as well (when he says "groups who want to incite violence at right wing rallies to advance their own cause," ect.) Antifa is a loose coalition of antifascist groups who are more hands on than others. They are currently the "Black Panthers denying white people access to the voting booths" of right wing bedwetting.
   1843. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 10:13 PM (#5512143)
How Liberal Portland Became America’s Most Politically Violent City:
Among the fringe political groups currently waging battle in the City of Roses, Greensboro is well-remembered, even idealized. It is increasingly seen as the inevitable end of the escalating violence that has rocked this city since Donald Trump’s election in November. Left wing “antifas,” wearing red bandana masks alongside other far-left protesters, have rioted multiple times and caused millions of dollars of damage, with threats from left wing groups even forcing the cancellation of a parade because it featured a float from the local Republican Party. Eager to push back against the opposition, white nationalists have begun mixing with anti-government militia members for “free speech” rallies. A man who attended one of these rallies would later stab to death two men on a train when they intervened to stop his anti-Muslim rants against two young women. The norms of protest and counterprotest—mostly verbal shouting and sign-waving—are quickly crumbling in Portland. The left wing antifa have even threatened preemptive violence in the name of the defending the city from groups they say promote violence.
Antifa engages in more fascist behavior than most of its enemies.
   1844. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 12, 2017 at 10:16 PM (#5512145)
Everybody's favorite Übermensch Richard Spencer was detained by the cops today in Charlottesville. Comedian Mike Morse noted, "This would be a good time to remind the police that President Trump did NOT discourage slamming a suspect's head on the squad car."

And to the horse who threw Pat Robertson this weekend, sending him to the hospital with injuries... good try.
   1845. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 12, 2017 at 10:17 PM (#5512147)
Wikipedia says that the first amendment starts with “Congress shall make no law”. And then?


Well, that's about it in a nutshell. Congress shall make no law... addresses to whom prohibitions of free speech apply to, and that is the government. initially it was just the Federal government, but one of the post civil war amendments made it apply to state governments as well. So the government cannot censor or suppress speech, except in extrordinary circumstances. That doesn't mean private institutions can't. That doesn't mean people are compelled to listen. That doesn't mean people can't pass judgement and issue sanctions (if it is within their lawful power) on the speaker. And it doesn't prevent governments from enforcing laws against people expressing their speech in unlawful ways. I cannot drive to your home in the middle of the night and blare out my speech at high volume, as that would violate disturbing the peace laws. And it doesn't mean that I cannot be prevented from disrupting your speech by illegal means such as tresspass or use of violence.
   1846. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 10:22 PM (#5512149)
Watching video of this for the first time and it struck me:

Did the protesters on both sides show up weaponized? They seem to have shields and sticks (the poles for the flags), at the least.
   1847. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 10:22 PM (#5512150)
Well, if you consider that it’s not just permissible, but the law of the land where I am, you might start to see why I find the whole issue complicated and confusing. Your one sentence summary of the first amendment was how I thought it was supposed to work. What confuses me, is bringing it up in connection with the crap that went down in Charlottesville. Did the government stop anyone from speaking? If not, are citizens allowed to first amendment harder in response to stuff they don’t want to hear?


I assume you have other amendments (and possibly even laws) that concern themselves with violence and cars and whatever. I just do not understand how private entities shutting down speech even touches on the right of freedom of speech. Because that comes up here and elsewhere every time somebody has to cancel an appearance. Does the freedom of speech include a right to be heard? If not then surely marchers and protesters are availing themselves of the exact same right. And in the marketplace of voices the loudest one wins. </blockquote>There are a lot of moving parts to this.

1. The First Amendment as a legal matter applies only to state (i.e., governmental) action. If (to pick a purely hypothetical example that would never happen) Google fires you because Google doesn't like your views, Google has not violated the 1A.
2. When people talk about the 1A, they sometimes don't know point #1, and misuse the term.
3. Other times when people talk about the 1A, they're talking about the spirit of the concept, rather than a legal doctrine. They think people shouldn't try to silence others, even if such actions don't take a form which violates the law.
4. Of course, certain actions by private people are illegal, even if they don't technically violate the 1A. (To state the obvious, you can't punch someone in the face because you don't like his opinions. Some people would describe that -- see #3 -- as infringing on your 1A rights.)
5. Also, the government can't stop you from speaking because of the fear of other people's violent reaction. That's called a "heckler's veto." So the government can't tell the Nazis that they can't speak because antifa might riot if they do.
6. The government also cannot refuse to provide you with government services, including police protection, because of your views. They can't, e.g., step aside and let your political opponents assault you, and then say, "Hey, that wasn't us who beat you up, so tough."

Many of the "cancelling an appearance" controversies fall within #5 or #6 (and of course #3). If you're scheduled to speak at a public university, and then people threaten to disrupt your speech and so the school cancels your speech because they're afraid of a violent reaction, then your 1A rights have been violated.

Is there something I haven't covered that you're still uncertain about?
   1848. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 10:23 PM (#5512151)
From what I can find, the helicopter was a police vehicle that crashed. I doubt anyone, either Nazi or counterprotester, has anti-aircraft capabilities.


Some idiot on tv just asked if any of the protesters can be charged with murder for the helicopter crash.

Uh, no.
   1849. Lassus Posted: August 12, 2017 at 10:23 PM (#5512152)
So. I've been traveling all day and been up unconnected in the north country farmland until now. I guess I've missed quite a day.
   1850. Omineca Greg Posted: August 12, 2017 at 10:24 PM (#5512153)
As I understand it from American history, you can advocate overthrowing the government (publish, orate, blog, whatever) as long as you don't do anything about it.


Really, that surprises me. It's just something that comes up in Canada from time to time...

"Hey bud. That's some pretty vile hateful #### that guy on the tv just said."

"Hey, I like Don Cherry."

"No not him. That American Nazi white supremacist guy."

"Yeah, but they let you say that #### in the States, eh. Like, I went to Disney World once, unreal what all those people were saying. Crazy ####, but they all seemed good with it, so, you know, it takes all kinds."

"They were saying crazy #### in Disney World?"

"No, buddy, not in Disney World, you can't say jack #### in there, or you're out on your ass. But in Florida. Vile, hateful ####, just like that Nazi on the tv you were talking about."

"Then why do they lose their #### so bad with the Communists? Don't they go to jail if they're a commie? Or at least get rocks thrown at them..."

"We throw stuff at commmies. Commies suck!"

"Yeah, but just soft stuff. Like garbage. We don't want to hurt them. Just degrade them a bit."

"Not recyclables though. They always go in the bin."

\"######' A! You gotta recycle."

"So Nazis yes, commies no? They seem to be about the same to me. If you ban one, you got to ban the other."

   1851. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 10:25 PM (#5512154)
From what I can find, the helicopter was a police vehicle that crashed. I doubt anyone, either Nazi or counterprotester, has anti-aircraft capabilities.

Good point, but leave it to the media to lead readers to assume the violence was the proximate cause of the deadly crash.
Funny thing is, when I first saw this on my phone, the breaking news alert said "Police: Helicopter crash kills two in Charlottesville." And I misread that as "Police helicopter crash kills two..." But even though I misread it, that turned out to be what had happened.

In any case, when they say "linked to the protests," I think they just meant that the helicopter was in action to help police deal with the protests -- not that the protests caused the crash.
   1852. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 10:27 PM (#5512155)
Jeffrey Lord was an awful "contributor" but this was just CNN's way of washing their hands of the dude without giving him any severance pay. Pathetic.


He was getting paid?

By CNN?

   1853. Lassus Posted: August 12, 2017 at 10:34 PM (#5512157)
I don't really think I'm old

Well, you're wrong.
   1854. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 10:34 PM (#5512158)
So. I've been traveling all day and been up unconnected in the north country farmland until now. I guess I've missed quite a day.
Not really. Dominic Smith is hitless in three plate appearances.
   1855. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: August 12, 2017 at 10:34 PM (#5512159)
He was getting paid?

By CNN?

It's hard to find people who are both willing to do the job that Lord did and capable of speaking in complete sentences. CNN took what they could get.
   1856. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: August 12, 2017 at 10:35 PM (#5512161)
Rosario had a nice double though.
   1857. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 12, 2017 at 10:37 PM (#5512162)
It's hard to find people who are both willing to do the job that Lord did and capable of speaking in complete sentences.


Yeah, and his replacement cannot. Forget her name but I ranted about her a couple of nights ago. Good Lord (no pun intended), she's awful.
   1858. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 10:41 PM (#5512163)
Serious question about the First Amendment: Does it protect a right to promote the overthrow of the government?
Yes.

Speech advocating criminal conduct (which, yes, overthrowing the government would be) is protected by the 1A, as interpreted by the Supreme Court for more than 50 years, unless it is "directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action." That's from a case called Brandenburg v. Ohio. In other words, you can't incite a mob to act on the spot, but simply saying, "The government should be overthrown!" is protected.
The US doesn't seem very Коммунистическая friendly, but are you free to be a Red if you go about it the right way? When people were getting nabbed by HUAC (sounds like what I'm doing with all this smoke!), did they have to rise to a certain level of pinkoness?
Well, (1) HUAC predates Brandenburg by many years; (2) at the time HUAC was operating, the Communist party wasn't merely a political party, but -- like the Trump campaign -- an active conspiracy with the Russians at the helm; (3) HUAC mostly involved exposure and reputational harms rather than criminal prosecution.
   1859. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 12, 2017 at 10:42 PM (#5512165)
Not all sweetness and light at the Netroots Conference:
Democrat Stacey Evans’ speech to a conference of progressive activists descended into chaos on Saturday, as protesters interrupted her repeatedly and she struggled to make herself heard over chants of “support black women.” Evans, a Smyrna state legislator who is white, expected a tough audience at the Netroots Nation event, where her rival Stacey Abrams was treated like royalty. But she said she at least expected to be able to make it through her remarks.

That didn’t happen. Almost as soon as she took the stage, a ring of demonstrators – some holding stark signs criticizing her – fanned out in front of Evans. The chanting soon followed. Pleading repeatedly for the room to speaks – “let’s talk through it,” she implored – the demonstrators at times drowned her out.
. . .
Abrams, seeking to be the nation’s first black female governor, has embraced a staunchly progressive platform and has pledged to mobilize a legion of minority voters who rarely cast ballots. Evans wants to rebuild a tattered coalition of liberals, working-class voters and suburbanites who have steadily spurned the party for the GOP.

Netroots is the Daily Kos crowd, pretty far to the left.
   1860. Sebastian Posted: August 12, 2017 at 10:53 PM (#5512167)
David, thank you, sincerely, for your last post. I am going to save that, because it is super helpful, and I retract anything sarcastic I said about libertarians in the last eight hours. And the Diamondbacks just scored an inside the park home run. Sorry for going off-off-topic.
   1861. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 11:00 PM (#5512169)
Well, (1) HUAC predates Brandenburg by many years; (2) at the time HUAC was operating, the Communist party wasn't merely a political party, but -- like the Trump campaign -- an active conspiracy with the Russians at the helm; (3) HUAC mostly involved exposure and reputational harms rather than criminal prosecution.
It's easy to forget that the immediate predecessor to HUAC, the Select Committee on Un-American Activities (popularly known as the McCormack-Dickstein Committee), was formed in 1934 to root out threats from Nazis and fascists, not Communists.
   1862. Lassus Posted: August 12, 2017 at 11:01 PM (#5512170)
Bryce Harper went down clutching his leg tonight.


This thread, though, oy.
   1863. Srul Itza Posted: August 12, 2017 at 11:01 PM (#5512171)
As the saying goes, the House Un-American Activities Committee was very aptly named, since it was in essence an Un-American Activity.
   1864. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 11:04 PM (#5512172)
Speaking of terrorism, this is happening tonight in Chicago:
Performance by Shadia Mansour!! #nojusticenopeace #HonorRasmea
   1865. Sebastian Posted: August 12, 2017 at 11:07 PM (#5512174)
So, hey, native speakers, what’s the plural of pharentisis?
   1866. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 12, 2017 at 11:13 PM (#5512178)
Parenthises. The last syllable pronounces "seas". In general, a singular noun ending in sis is pluralized by ses. Nemesis, nemeses
   1867. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 12, 2017 at 11:15 PM (#5512181)
And so, separate groups of jihadists in Iraq and Syria are ISES.
   1868. madvillain Posted: August 12, 2017 at 11:16 PM (#5512182)
Trump has told associates he's fed up with what he sees as self-promotion by Bannon, who did not join the core team this week at the president's golf club in Bedminster, N.J. When Reince Priebus was chief of staff and facing his own problems, Trump didn't have an easy vehicle to evict Bannon from the White House. Priebus and Bannon became allies of convenience in a war against Jared and Ivanka (or "Javanka" as Bannon calls them to associates.)


what a clown show
   1869. madvillain Posted: August 12, 2017 at 11:17 PM (#5512183)
Trump has told associates he's fed up with what he sees as self-promotion by Bannon, who did not join the core team this week at the president's golf club in Bedminster, N.J. When Reince Priebus was chief of staff and facing his own problems, Trump didn't have an easy vehicle to evict Bannon from the White House. Priebus and Bannon became allies of convenience in a war against Jared and Ivanka (or "Javanka" as Bannon calls them to associates.)


what a clown show
   1870. zenbitz Posted: August 12, 2017 at 11:17 PM (#5512185)
I saw Harper go down live on TV. Bad. He tore something, or thinks he did.
   1871. madvillain Posted: August 12, 2017 at 11:18 PM (#5512186)
####### website.
   1872. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 11:21 PM (#5512189)
Terry McAuliffe's "Go home; you are not wanted in this great commonwealth" speech reminded me of the 80s tv shows where Matt Houston or Michael Knight would wind up in a small town in the middle of nowhere investigating some disappearance and the sheriff (usually played by Stuart Whitman or Lance LeGault or Luke Askew) who somehow had the powers of a king in the town and people ready to maim and kill for him on command would say, "You have until dinner time to leave this here town."

Following that the person warned would stick around undeterred and would be met with some type of violence or near miss that never ended up killing him but would usually break a couple ribs or force his car off the road.
   1873. Sebastian Posted: August 12, 2017 at 11:24 PM (#5512191)
Cubs lost, I’m off to bed. Love reading most of you. I hope that there will be no nuclear war while I’m asleep.
   1874. zenbitz Posted: August 12, 2017 at 11:26 PM (#5512192)
I think this clash on Virginia, and the responses to it, is an interesting lesson
In perceived threat level. Us big city white male elites are going to find it easy to "hey don't give them the attention"

Since this is exactly how I feel about Islamic terrorists, I kind of get where this is coming from.

But I think one can argue that the threat to minorities in the rural or suburban south is higher, relative to fundamentalist Islam.

I think this is why JE cares more about Iran than I do - - he cares more about Israel than I do.

   1875. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 12, 2017 at 11:27 PM (#5512193)
#1872:
Terry McAuliffe's "Go home; you are not wanted in this great commonwealth" speech reminded me of the 80s tv shows where Matt Houston or Michael Knight would wind up in a small town in the middle of nowhere investigating some disappearance and the sheriff (usually played by Stuart Whitman or Lance LeGault or Luke Askew) who somehow had the powers of a king in the town and people ready to maim and kill for him on command would say, "You have until dinner time to leave this here town."


Then how come the talking car just ran everybody over today without saying a word?
   1876. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 11:27 PM (#5512195)
Legally permissible, though, for McAuliffe, flanked by the police chief and the mayor, to say this? He's Making No Law but he's threatening people who are exercising their 1A rights to protest no matter how despicable their cause:

“"I have a message to all the white supremacists and the Nazis who came into Charlottesville today. Our message is plain and simple. Go home. You are not wanted in this great commonwealth. Shame on you. You pretend that you are patriots, but you are anything but a patriot. You want to talk about patriots, talk about Thomas Jefferson and George Washington, who brought our country together. Think about the patriots today, the young men and women, who with wearing the cloth of our country.

“Somewhere around the globe they are putting their life in danger. They are patriots. You are not. You came here today to hurt people. And you did hurt people. My message is clear, we are stronger than you. You have made our commonwealth stronger. You will not succeed. There is no place for you here. There is no place for you in America.”


   1877. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 11:30 PM (#5512197)
For NY-area folks, I just watched the PIX 11 newscast that followed the Mets loss and OMG, Kaity Tong looks YOUNGER than she did when I watched her in the 90s.

EDIT: Holy ####, she was born in 1947!
   1878. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 11:34 PM (#5512199)
McAuliffe further indicated that he spoke with President Donald Trump earlier in the day and encouraged a movement in America "to bring people together."


Followed by:

"Go home and never come back."

Followed by:

"Come with me to a homeless shelter."

Make up your mind......
   1879. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 11:39 PM (#5512200)
Then how come the talking car just ran everybody over today without saying a word?
Hal never did get over Bowman shutting him down.
   1880. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 11:42 PM (#5512201)
Cubs lost, I’m off to bed. Love reading most of you. I hope that there will be no nuclear war while I’m asleep.
You'd rather be wide awake when it happens?
   1881. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 11:51 PM (#5512202)
It's easy to forget that the immediate predecessor to HUAC, the Select Committee on Un-American Activities (popularly known as the McCormack-Dickstein Committee), was formed in 1934 to root out threats from Nazis and fascists, not Communists.
And, as it turned out, Samuel Dickstein was an active Soviet agent.
   1882. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 12, 2017 at 11:53 PM (#5512203)
Preliminary tests from the Nats doctors indicate that Bryce Harper tore his ACL and his PCL.

And there's still seven minutes left for something else to happen on this shitty day.
   1883. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 12, 2017 at 11:55 PM (#5512205)
I hope that there will be no nuclear war while I’m asleep.
Well, when you wake up, check BBTF; if there was a nuclear war, you can find out about it here.
   1884. Covfefe Posted: August 12, 2017 at 11:58 PM (#5512206)
Legally permissible, though, for McAuliffe, flanked by the police chief and the mayor, to say this? He's Making No Law but he's threatening people who are exercising their 1A rights to protest no matter how despicable their cause:


Spare me, you hypocritical wanker.

Shall we go back and dig up your thoughts when it was a BLM march?

You're a shitty vice signaler jackass, nothing more.
   1885. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 13, 2017 at 12:01 AM (#5512207)
Chance of nuclear war in the next 20 years:

Zero.

Nobody in position to wage it wants it.

I mean, at least worry about something realistic, like the chance that Climate Change will finally kill someone while we're still alive to see it.
   1886. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 13, 2017 at 12:03 AM (#5512208)
Spare me, you hypocritical wanker.

Shall we go back and dig up your thoughts when it was a BLM march?

You're a shitty vice signaler jackass, nothing more.


Really just asking a law school exam type question; I don't expect anyone cares.

What if McAuliffe (or Sheriff David Clarke) had delivered the same "Go home; we don't want you here" message to BLM? Still ok?
   1887. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 13, 2017 at 12:10 AM (#5512211)
Ray's just trying to share his bad mood because he can't in good conscience grade the President's Saturday any higher than an A-minus.
   1888. Covfefe Posted: August 13, 2017 at 12:11 AM (#5512212)
Really just asking a law school exam type question; I don't expect anyone cares.

What if McAuliffe (or Sheriff David Clarke) had delivered the same "Go home; we don't want you here" message to BLM? Still ok?


And what if it was a NAMBLA march demanding Jerry Sandusky be released because Milo says there's value in a man coercing a boy into learning how to give head?

Wrap it in whatever theoretical bullshit helps you you sleep at night.

Doesn't change the fact that you've only ever been Captain Freedom in certain easily categorized circumstances.
   1889. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 13, 2017 at 12:11 AM (#5512213)
Nobody in position to wage it wants it.
Even if that's true, it's not like conventional war; it doesn't take careful organization and planning. It takes one person pressing a figurative (or literal) button. Accident, crazy person, misunderstanding, and it happens even though nobody rational would want it.
   1890. Covfefe Posted: August 13, 2017 at 12:18 AM (#5512215)
And for the record, yes -- I'm perfectly fine with elected officials telling Nazis to go the #### home.

If they start locking them up because they are Nazis, I might change my opinion -- but yes, considering we fought a ####### war where a couple hundred thousand Americans died to defeat them -- yeah.... it doesn't bother me in the least when elected officials tell them that they and their ideas are not particularly welcome and are antithetical to America.

But - apparently, not just them, but Americans like Ray disagree.... Every now and then, I think I was foolish and overreacting getting the #### out of dodge... then I realize I was right all along... because the danger actually isn't the "legion" of neo-nazis... it's the fact that plenty of supposed non fellow travelers will gladly carry their water.
   1891. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 13, 2017 at 12:23 AM (#5512216)
Zonk doesn't seem to have picked up the self-effacing, polite cordiality of his newly adopted land yet. Sad.
   1892. greenback is not cosmopolitan Posted: August 13, 2017 at 12:24 AM (#5512217)
Chance of nuclear war in the next 20 years:

Zero.

Nobody in position to wage it wants it.

What was Elie Wiesel's line at the turn of the millennium? That the problem of the 21st century will be the same as the problem of the 20th century, keeping weapons of mass destruction out of the hands of people who want to use them? You're taking institutions for granted whose source of strength is clearly nothing more than social norms. When people actively seek to undermine both the institutions and the norms, then there is no magic fairy dust to protect us.

The driver of today's deadly vehicle, aka the radical Nazi terrorist, had a lot of the standard Nazi stuff on his Facebook page. He also had a picture of Assad on there, labeled "Undefeated". I can guess at the source for this sense of alliance, but Iran's favorite Alawite is still an odd candidate for an American Nazi's iconography.
   1893. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 13, 2017 at 12:25 AM (#5512218)
But - apparently, not just them, but Americans like Ray disagree....


Disagree with what? I can't parse this.

Every now and then, I think I was foolish and overreacting getting the #### out of dodge... then I realize I was right all along... because the danger actually isn't the "legion" of neo-nazis... it's the fact that plenty of supposed non fellow travelers will gladly carry their water.


Carry what water? I'm asking whether McAuliffe's speech was prohibited by the First Amendment. Try not to overreact.

And also -- you fled to *Canada*. Give it up. That doesn't count.
   1894. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 13, 2017 at 12:28 AM (#5512219)
What was Elie Wiesel's line at the turn of the millennium?


I believe it was, "What's the Y2K problem?"
   1895. Covfefe Posted: August 13, 2017 at 12:29 AM (#5512220)
Zonk doesn't seem to have picked up the self-effacing, polite cordiality of his newly adopted land yet. Sad.


No doubt.

Though, if we're talking about adoption -- I'd rather be an American in Canada than I would being a von Papen like yourself.

As I said, I sleep fine.... how do you sleep?
   1896. Covfefe Posted: August 13, 2017 at 12:39 AM (#5512221)
But - apparently, not just them, but Americans like Ray disagree....


Disagree with what? I can't parse this.


You tell me...

What's the line where elected officials shouldn't be criticizing people exercising their first amendment rights?

Clearly, its not advocates of Nazism. So - I'm just asking.

Is there ANY line?

If marchers advocate raping little boys, is it then OK for elected officials to state that their opinions aren't welcome in the public square?

I'm perfectly comfortable placing the line somewhere on the other side of of Nazism before we get to reductio ad adsurdum.

You're obviously not. I'm just asking where the line is.... and as I said, if Terry McAuliffe or whomever starts locking them up for their opinions - the equation changes, but if it's just "your opinions are not welcome in our public square", where's the line? Again - I mean aside from claiming policing isn't racially neutral.
   1897. Count Posted: August 13, 2017 at 12:45 AM (#5512222)
Mayor Menino told Chick-Fil-A they weren't welcome in Boston, I believe, which may have been inappropriate but obviously had zero legal force. I would not read that much into McCauliffe's comments by themselves.


   1898. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 13, 2017 at 12:50 AM (#5512224)

If marchers advocate raping little boys, is it then OK for elected officials to state that their opinions aren't welcome in the public square?


That's what I'm asking. You're just re-stating the question. But not really, because you're asking where the line is and your analysis turns on the *content* under discussion. On the other hand, my analysis turns on what the law prohibits the government from doing *regardless* of the content. Perhaps the Constitution doesn't prohibit a governor from standing up there with a police chief and a mayor and telling people with certain views to go home because they're not welcome in the commonwealth or in America. Perhaps the Constitution does prohibit this. I don't know. I'm asking. David seems to be our resident 1A expert so perhaps he can chime in and answer the question, at least after he calls me an idiot and some other names first.

My guess is that since McCauliffe isn't threatening to put people in jail what he's doing isn't prohibited, but he _is_ sort of threatening people under some reasonable definition of "threatening" by telling them to go home because they're not welcome and standing up there with an armed police chief. Again, if people turn this around and envision him saying this to Black Lives Matter, I think they'd very quickly be able to see the validity of my question.
   1899. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 13, 2017 at 12:56 AM (#5512226)
Mayor Menino told Chick-Fil-A they weren't welcome in Boston, I believe, which may have been inappropriate but obviously had zero legal force. I would not read that much into McCauliffe's comments by themselves.
That's not quite right, though. Menino didn't merely say that they weren't welcome; he said that he would try to stop them from opening restaurants there, by, e.g., blocking necessary permits and licenses. Simply expressing his personal view has no legal force, but denying licenses does. (He later walked back those threats after, I assume, his lawyers pointed out the problem.)
   1900. Spahn Insane, stimulus-funded BurlyMan™ Posted: August 13, 2017 at 12:57 AM (#5512227)
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