Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Monday, January 08, 2018

OTP 8 January 2018: Lawsuits could change the rules in North Carolina politics, balance of power in Raleigh

Jake Quinn says his main job when he umpires baseball games as a volunteer for North Asheville Little League is to ensure each team is treated fairly.

“Before the first pitch is thrown, the score is 0-0 and the team that scores the most runs during the game wins the game,” he said.

But, he says, “That’s not the way elections work. With gerrymandering, one team starts out in the lead. That’s fundamentally unfair.”

 

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 08, 2018 at 07:54 AM | 2393 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: little league, off topic, politics, umpire

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 20 of 24 pages ‹ First  < 18 19 20 21 22 >  Last ›
   1901. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 12, 2018 at 04:51 PM (#5605688)
Diversity undermines social/public trust; Robert Putnam's research showed as much and subsequent research reinforces it. Diversity turns high trust societies into low trust societies. And one of the features of low trust societies is that it's very difficult to generate public support for the sort of social welfare spending lefties love because everybody is convinced THEY'RE getting screwed in favor of some other group.

Gee, and I wonder who's been playing that broken record for the past 80 years, other than the permanent alliance of racists and conservative Republicans?

And when we look at the most fervent supporters of diversity, what do we see?

Young people, women and minorities. Not all that many billionaires among them, so obviously (drumroll) they must then be "takers".

Are all immigrants equally desirable?

Of course not, by grouping them by nations for purposes of judgment doesn't exactly scream "American values", if indeed any such values exist for Trumpians outside of ethnic and cultural nationalism.
   1902. Zonk wouldn't or would he? Posted: January 12, 2018 at 04:51 PM (#5605689)
The funny thing about diversity is rank and file useful idiot lefties don't see the end game. Diversity undermines social/public trust; Robert Putnam's research showed as much and subsequent research reinforces it. Diversity turns high trust societies into low trust societies. And one of the features of low trust societies is that it's very difficult to generate public support for the sort of social welfare spending lefties love because everybody is convinced THEY'RE getting screwed in favor of some other group.


And this distrust... it is an organic and naturally developing thing? Not a cudgel long, long, long employed by leaders recognizing that whether a system is democratic or not, it is one of the most rudimentary tools used to marshal support for such leaders?

And when we look at the most fervent supporters of diversity, what do we see? Billionaires. Big, corporate media (usually the wholly owned mouthpieces of billionaires). The very people who don't want to shell out their precious money on social programs for the poors. That's why for hardcore libertarians, the Diversity Cult actually makes a lot of sense; in a fragmented, low trust society, people don't want high taxes or social spending because nobody trusts anybody else to follow the rules and use/distribute such money fairly. Of course, low trust societies are often incredibly shitty in lots of other ways, but hey, gotta break some eggs if you want an omelet!


Sloppy Steve: The Rebirth auditions have apparently begun.

This might play better if not all in a single post, probably separated by a few pages - especially when you've just spent your fun bemoaning the RAEG of the diversity loving lefties.

My additional advice would be - or I suppose, technically, advice I will return to you sans the "deplorables" wrapping paper -- is that if you want to get the useful idiots to SEE, SEE! dammit! - how they are just useful idiots being used by the global elite power structure, well... you can fill in the rest.

At minimum, perhaps inverting in the paragraphs -- explain the powerful, shadowy forces of the global elites pulling the strings THEN segue into the useful idiots who are just tools of them and why they should stop.
   1903. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: January 12, 2018 at 04:52 PM (#5605690)
Re: Hearts of Iron IV

I don't think I've played it since the first month of the release (not a fan, figured out how to game it, got bored, figured I'd wait on expansions).... I assume by this point there have been expansions?

There have been several free patches and two or three expansions. There's a pretty massive expansion that will be released sometime in the next few months and then later this year they're planning on releasing something to make the supply chain management more challenging as well as overhaul the naval system (the two are obviously related).

There are some good mods out there that make the game a bit more challenging (e.g., ones that add consumables and increase types of resources--grain, coal, etc). But 1.5 year after release, the game is still a work in progress and the AI is still not as sophisticated as one would hope.
   1904. PepTech Posted: January 12, 2018 at 04:53 PM (#5605691)
Are all immigrants equally desirable?
Nope. Which is why a merit-based immigration system is worthy of discussion. "Merit" could mean education, or skillset, or some need component. That's all open for debate.

What shouldn't be "merit" is "that guy is from Haiti, forget it. Haiti's a ########." Particularly if the people making the policy have never been to Haiti.

I'm sure portions of Haiti are shitholes. So are portions of Long Island, more than likely. But the individuals from those places deserve to not be dismissed based on Trump's (almost certainly) uninformed opinion of how worthy the place is.
   1905. greenback took the 110 until the 105 Posted: January 12, 2018 at 04:54 PM (#5605693)
Unless Trump messes with it, I assume a permanent job would mean I'd get sponsored for an H1-b (exempt) visa, so my wife could apply for work approval after arrival, which I *think* would not have the renewal issues.

H-1B isn't permanent though, right? Or at least the H-1B's I've known got two sets of three-year terms. And they were supposed to promise that they're totally not planning to try to get a green card or try to become a citizen.

But Trump, of course, has suggested he may nix that.

I don't trust Trump's motivations, but the H-1B program is terrible. "Let's hold a lottery, and whoever loses has to leave the country, regardless of skills!" That's almost as dumb as whatever Stephen Miller wants.
   1906. Omineca Greg Posted: January 12, 2018 at 04:55 PM (#5605694)
Slovenes are the only Slavs who yodel.

I'm giving this sentence fragment an award for "Most Mellifluous Phrase Of The Day." It reminds me of the Slapp Happy lyric...

Some go slimming in swimming pools, some stay slim in slums

Anyway, if you wanna yodel out to the latest Eurotrash yodeling sounds, check this one out. Romanian, so not Slavic, but still you'll be bobbing your head and pumping your fist in the air to this one...you will be if you're a Eurovision fan that is (and who isn't?).

Ilinca Băcilă and Alex Florea

You're welcome!

Whenever I see the Cluj-Napoca skyline now, I get a little turgid, and I feel incredible guilty. Firstly, because Ilinca is young, like Roy Moore dating pool young, so I feel bad about that. But also, you would think it would be easy to go through life not seeing pictures of the Cluj-Napoca skyline, but somehow I always find a reason to find myself looking over Cluj-Napoca image searches, as in "Hmmm. I wonder if my phone bill reflects the latest changes in Transylvanian urban planning?" and then I get lost in misty fantasy.
   1907. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: January 12, 2018 at 04:55 PM (#5605695)
The funny thing about diversity is rank and file useful idiot lefties don't see the end game. Diversity undermines social/public trust; Robert Putnam's research showed as much and subsequent research reinforces it.
And yet diverse teams are better problem solvers (pdf), more innovative (pdf), more creative, more productive, and more profitable.

It's almost as if people are ######## that need to be led by leaders who understand the value of different ideas, perspectives and experiences.
   1908. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 12, 2018 at 04:56 PM (#5605696)
More economic news - Dow Jones and S & P 500 Have Best Start Since 2003:
U.S. stock indexes on Friday closed out what has been a stellar start to a calendar year for equity trading. In fact, the roughly 4.4% rise for the Dow Jones Industrial Average DJIA, +0.89% and the 4.2% rise for the S&P 500 index SPX, +0.67% so far in 2018, represent the best start to a year since 2003, according to WSJ Market Data Group. The Nasdaq Composite Index's COMP, +0.68% 5.2% advance so far this month, marks the best start to a year since 2004. All three benchmarks finished at all time highs on Friday, along with the Dow Jones Transportation Average DJT, +0.79% and the small-cap focused Russell 2000 index RUT, +0.33%

Seems to be a trend of late.
   1909. PreservedFish Posted: January 12, 2018 at 04:57 PM (#5605697)
   1910. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 12, 2018 at 04:58 PM (#5605698)
I'm sure portions of Haiti are shitholes. So are portions of Long Island,

And if Staten Island ever floated out into the middle of the Atlantic, the rest of NYC sure wouldn't miss it, other than as a nice excuse to take a free ferry ride.
   1911. PreservedFish Posted: January 12, 2018 at 04:59 PM (#5605699)
The funny thing about diversity is rank and file useful idiot lefties don't see the end game. Diversity undermines social/public trust ... And one of the features of low trust societies is that it's very difficult to generate public support for the sort of social welfare spending lefties love...


Oh no! Time to abandon my beloved and deeply held principles!

There are some people on this board that can't grasp that not everyone approaches politics like it's a game. I don't care if Syrian refugees are more likely to vote Republican. I still want them. Bring them over!
   1912. Ray (CTL) Posted: January 12, 2018 at 05:01 PM (#5605700)
But -- let me say or the record, I predicted yesterday that this is exactly where we would end up.... after the brief foray into "if he said it"... we would eventually end up with you digging in in the usual way.


I'm doing no such thing. PepTech talked about what Trump's words were at face value (before PepTech went on to infer from Trump's words). That's what I'm talking about. At face value. I'm making no further point.
   1913. Traderdave Posted: January 12, 2018 at 05:01 PM (#5605701)
Are all immigrants equally desirable?


This violates my rule against posting to lunatics but here goes:

From where, TGF, do your (presumbly white) forebears hail? How desirable was that country considered when they came over?


Per a DNA test, mine were primarily from Finland (drunks) and Ireland (violent unwashed Catholic drunks). None of them would have met your or Il Duce's test of ethnic desirability, to coin a phrase.

Neither would my wife's, who were a mix of Irish (the original white trash) and Jews from Romania (double whammy) and yet, somehow, each generation improved its lot and now we're degreed professionals with no criminal records and part of the 1%, albeit the lower end of that lucky strata.

What about your ancestry, TGF? Or for that matter, all the anti-immigrant bigots here: what was so "desirable" about your immigrant ancestors?


   1914. PreservedFish Posted: January 12, 2018 at 05:02 PM (#5605702)
Ray is a doofus often enough that I don't think we need to stretch to see some minor doofosity in his opinion on this topic, which is pretty measured and logical.
   1915. Count Posted: January 12, 2018 at 05:03 PM (#5605703)
YC, why are you against chain migration? It's perverse to not allow family members in.
   1916. BrianBrianson Posted: January 12, 2018 at 05:08 PM (#5605705)

H-1B isn't permanent though, right?


The academic H1-b is different from the lottery one. There's no limit to the number of visas, maybe other things. I'm not sure about having to eventually get a green card or whatnot. My job is only three years max, and I'm on a J-1, so I didn't really look into it. Based on where I'm applying for jobs, it's maybe 50-50 I'll try to stay in the US if I remain an academic.

I mean, over the course of my life, I've applied for jobs in about ten different countries. I've always waited to get an offer before looking into visa terms. That's kind of an academic thing to say, but there it is.
   1917. Zonk wouldn't or would he? Posted: January 12, 2018 at 05:12 PM (#5605706)
Are all immigrants equally desirable?


You've got the question upside down... framing it as such presumes immigration is actually a you pick 'em berry farm.

You might as well ask "are all the various denomination of legal tender equally desirable?"

As I will re-state again, for now the 6th time -- even under our current system, the aggregate data on the immigrants to the US shows that that they, in fact, do end up being the ones we want. They pursue higher education at far higher rates than our native born population. They engage in entrepreneurial endeavors at far higher rates. They commit fewer crimes.

It is precisely the inherent problem with your whole raison d'etre -- you don't want immigrants. Because you're provincial, a bit racist, and a reactionary left behind in a world that increasingly sees you as a relic. So - you try to mask it by pretending you are not that, just being more higher minded, picky.

I would like to marry a wealthy heiress, highly educated and intelligent, with proven super model aesthetics because she's actually walked runways. Not impossible, but such a woman does lack for suitors. However, just because one fails to court and lock down a certified (or "merit-based" in your lingo) woman does mean that one will not find a woman that can make a wonderful financial partner, is smart and perspicacious, and even beautiful.

That's the problem. What we want are people who are hard-working, going to contribute to the betterment of the country - in any number of ways, law-abiding, and possess a morality that transcends language/race/culture.

Certain attributes - education, wealth, etc - can be better-than-nothing predictors that a person possesses such qualities.... but - they are also predictors that such a person is unlikely to be interested in immigrating.

Hence, it's stupid to craft policies meant to date only the Rockefeller heiresses who graduated magna cum laude from Harvard, got an SI swimsuit cover, etc. Unless your intention is to die alone should you not win the affections of one.

Better to play the available field - which may even, by chance, on rare occasion, include such...

By all means - if you want to give preference to the rarity, go for it. But pretending it ought to be the entire policy is just dumb. Unless your intention is actually just to end immigration.
   1918. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: January 12, 2018 at 05:14 PM (#5605708)
I totally trust this guy's research.
Can't figure out if he looks more like Bilbo Baggins on a bender or a cross between Steve Bannon and the Quaker Oats guy. Yikes.

Looks like he's current on his propecia tabs, though.
   1919. The Good Face Posted: January 12, 2018 at 05:18 PM (#5605710)
And this distrust... it is an organic and naturally developing thing?


Yes.

Not a cudgel long, long, long employed by leaders recognizing that whether a system is democratic or not, it is one of the most rudimentary tools used to marshal support for such leaders?


Sure, it'll be different this time. THIS time you've unlocked the secret to creating the New Soviet Man!

My additional advice would be - or I suppose, technically, advice I will return to you sans the "deplorables" wrapping paper -- is that if you want to get the useful idiots to SEE, SEE! dammit! - how they are just useful idiots being used by the global elite power structure, well... you can fill in the rest.


I just think it's ironic (and kind of funny) that you guys are fighting so hard to undermine your own preferred policies. I'm sure you'll find somebody to blame when you realize what you've, collectively, done, but it's still funny.

Nope. Which is why a merit-based immigration system is worthy of discussion. "Merit" could mean education, or skillset, or some need component. That's all open for debate.

What shouldn't be "merit" is "that guy is from Haiti, forget it. Haiti's a ########." Particularly if the people making the policy have never been to Haiti.


You wanna go duck hunting, you go to where the ducks are. You want educated, healthy, law abiding immigrants, you focus on countries that have a high proportion of educated, healthy, law abiding people. I might find some ducks in my neighbor's backyard goldfish pool, but I'm going to find a lot more if I go to a pond.
   1920. PepTech Posted: January 12, 2018 at 05:23 PM (#5605712)
Nope. Which is why a merit-based immigration system is worthy of discussion. "Merit" could mean education, or skillset, or some need component. That's all open for debate.

What shouldn't be "merit" is "that guy is from Haiti, forget it. Haiti's a ########." Particularly if the people making the policy have never been to Haiti.

You wanna go duck hunting, you go to where the ducks are. You want educated, healthy, law abiding immigrants, you focus on countries that have a high proportion of educated, healthy, law abiding people. I might find some ducks in my neighbor's backyard goldfish pool, but I'm going to find a lot more if I go to a pond.
But in this scenario, you're not going anywhere. The ducks are dropping their CVs on your desk.

If you want an educated, healthy, law abiding immigrant, you should look at their file to see whether they are educated, healthy, and law abiding. Not reject it by the color of its ink.
   1921. Count Posted: January 12, 2018 at 05:24 PM (#5605713)
Right, TGF is worried about low skilled immigrants but apparently is in favor of selecting on the basis of national origin instead of a merits or skill based system. Wonder why.
   1922. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: January 12, 2018 at 05:25 PM (#5605715)
Seems to be a trend of late.
Going on about 8 years now, I guess.
You wanna go duck hunting, you go to where the ducks are. You want educated, healthy, law abiding immigrants, you focus on countries that have a high proportion of educated, healthy, law abiding people. I might find some ducks in my neighbor's backyard goldfish pool, but I'm going to find a lot more if I go to a pond.
Best place I've found for duck hunting around these parts is the duck pond at the zoo, but they get upset when you shoot them there, so you have to go really early. Wait, what were we talking about?
   1923. greenback took the 110 until the 105 Posted: January 12, 2018 at 05:29 PM (#5605716)
The academic H1-b is different from the lottery one. There's no limit to the number of visas, maybe other things.

That's... odd. I don't see why academia gets a special pass, but I guess that's par for the course for the US immigration system.
   1924. PepTech Posted: January 12, 2018 at 05:30 PM (#5605717)
PepTech talked about what Trump's words were at face value (before PepTech went on to infer from Trump's words). That's what I'm talking about.
And you are perfectly correct that he called the countries sh!tholes. He did not call the people sh!tholes. He did, however, call "people from ######## countries" unwanted. Which is still racist.

If he'd said "people from Baltic countries" it would be equally racist.
   1925. Zonk wouldn't or would he? Posted: January 12, 2018 at 05:31 PM (#5605718)
Sure, it'll be different this time. THIS time you've unlocked the secret to creating the New Soviet Man!


Setting aside the tired - and boring - place this always ends up (seriously - it's like those children's place mat restaurant mazes... just replace the cheese with Marxism/Leninism).... I actually do think there appears to be something afoot.

Despite your unwillingness to admit I'm right - nobody's ever gonna get out-N*******'ed again! - I think we may actually be at some kind of really exciting tipping point. The same, tried provincialism and racism tired, old foot-soldiers like you keep alive has a long history. But - was far more widespread and accepted.

Today? Well, I think your boy's approval speaks for itself.

No, this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it may just be the end of the beginning.

I just think it's ironic (and kind of funny) that you guys are fighting so hard to undermine your own preferred policies. I'm sure you'll find somebody to blame when you realize what you've, collectively, done, but it's still funny.


Says the guy who triumphantly rode in the Trump horse - sometimes explicitly but often implicitly preferring the same policies.... The political purveyors of my preferred policies have a very uneven record of success in enacting said policies - but at least none of them point blank, ridiculously shat on them and laughed.

My coalition remains intact - certainly not as politically successful as I'd like - but I'd prefer it remain intact and as-of-yet unsuccessful versus "successful" but then succeeding only in doing PRECISELY what Lil Marco, Low Energy Jeb, or Lyin Ted would have accomplished. Hell - maybe even more so - there's perhaps a chance political concerns by one of them (at least, the first two) might not have even gone along completely, wholly, and entirely with the Heritage Petri Dish's tax plan.
   1926. greenback took the 110 until the 105 Posted: January 12, 2018 at 05:37 PM (#5605719)
For the USA, and other receiving countries, sure. Despite my previously expressed preference for merit-based immigration over family ties chain-based immigration, I'm not sure we should encourage either type of immigration from developing countries. They need those people. Western Europe, Japan, or even South Korea & Taiwan won't miss a few engineers, physicians, lawyers, or unskilled but highly motivated workers. Not so for much of the rest of the world that is harmed by the brain drain and exodus of talent. There would be considerable opposition, and it's probably not worth the political cost, but we aren't really doing the third world any favors by encouraging its citizens to come here.

This reasoning is another attack on our weird Muslim ban. "Well, we shouldn't drain the brains of a country like Iran we're convinced is trying to build nukes. No, sir. That would provoke a political backlash with the ayatollahs, and we sure wouldn't want that."
   1927. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: January 12, 2018 at 05:40 PM (#5605720)
Here in California we have a minority-majority population. We have decent social programs. I haven't seen any issues over trust. And a majority of white voters here voted for Clinton, myself included. Back in the 1990s when CA was headed towards becoming a majority-minority state, there was quite a bit of fear mongering in response. But then it happened and people realized that it wasn't something to fear.
   1928. The Good Face Posted: January 12, 2018 at 05:45 PM (#5605722)
Setting aside the tired - and boring - place this always ends up (seriously - it's like those children's place mat restaurant mazes... just replace the cheese with Marxism/Leninism).... I actually do think there appears to be something afoot.

Despite your unwillingness to admit I'm right - nobody's ever gonna get out-N*******'ed again! - I think we may actually be at some kind of really exciting tipping point. The same, tried provincialism and racism tired, old foot-soldiers like you keep alive has a long history. But - was far more widespread and accepted.

Today? Well, I think your boy's approval speaks for itself.

No, this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it may just be the end of the beginning.


Yup, the dictatorship of the proletariat and the withering of the state is riiiiiight around the corner. Aaaaaany day now.

Those tired and boring phrases keep coming up because you guys keep refusing to learn from their example. Human nature is real and it cares nothing for your ideology.
   1929. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: January 12, 2018 at 05:57 PM (#5605724)
Is it OK to call Venezuela a ########, if we don't mention the people? Asking for a friend.
   1930. tshipman Posted: January 12, 2018 at 06:04 PM (#5605726)
The incident recently smoked out a number of other questionable comments:

"Where are you from?" the president asked, according to two officials with direct knowledge of the exchange.

New York, she replied.

Trump was unsatisfied and asked again, the officials said. Referring to the president's hometown, she offered that she, too, was from Manhattan. But that's not what the president was after.

He wanted to know where "your people" are from, according to the officials, who spoke under condition of anonymity due to the nature of the internal discussions.

After the analyst revealed that her parents are Korean, Trump turned to an adviser in the room and seemed to suggest her ethnicity should determine her career path, asking why the "pretty Korean lady" isn't negotiating with North Korea on his administration's behalf, the officials said.



At a March meeting with members of the Congressional Black Caucus, Trump asked the elected officials if they personally knew just one member of his incoming cabinet — Ben Carson — according to two people in the room.

Carson, the only black member of Trump's Cabinet, had never served in Congress and spent his career as a surgeon. Trump found that surprising that no one said they knew him, the attendees said.

During that same meeting, a member relayed to Trump that potential welfare cuts would harm her constituents, "not all of whom are black." The president replied: "Really? Then what are they?"

   1931. BDC Posted: January 12, 2018 at 06:05 PM (#5605727)
Diversity undermines social/public trust; Robert Putnam's research showed as much and subsequent research reinforces it. Diversity turns high trust societies into low trust societies

I don't think that's necessarily true historically. Sometimes it's been true and sometimes it hasn't: as Joyful Calculus says, it's not true of present California or present New York City; or as others have said, it's not generally true of the entire history of the very diverse United States. It's not generally true of Texas today, especially on a day-to-day level, except as zonk says for a few demagogic xenophobes that people largely ignore on an everyday basis.

Meanwhile, as with so much social-science research, the problem is setting the definition of terms. Many societies look quite homogenous from the outside, till you know why the individuals consider themselves diverse. I think it's a kind of fractal thing: leave a perfectly uniform group together long enough, add stressors and just plain bloody-mindedness, and you start to see factions where you'd've thought them impossible. Jonathan Swift had the best parable along these lines, the Big-Endians and the Little-Endians. Or if you like, Frank Gorshin and his mirror-image B&W guy on Star Trek, where nobody can initially see WTF they hate each other.

White Texas Baptists are probably the most monolithic group imaginable, in the extra-Texan imagination. But they have had severe internal differences over the past few decades. Protestantism itself can be read as the history of groups splintering into ideal homogeneous groups – which then further splinter along some once-invisible fault line. Meanwhile Catholicism is a big unhappy messy tent that has still somehow defied centrifugal forces for a long time now. I don't think any of this history is reducible to some "diversity" variable cooked up in somebody's social-science project.
   1932. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: January 12, 2018 at 06:06 PM (#5605728)
I prefer the merit=need take. Need being people in danger of being killed in their home country due to gang violence moved to the top of the list. Call me a bleeding heart.

But we can't have chain migration, no, because sooner or later at the end of the chain comes the black sheep of the family. Heck, in many of THOSE families the black sheep come a lot sooner than at the end of the chain, amirite?
   1933. BrianBrianson Posted: January 12, 2018 at 06:11 PM (#5605729)
And really, if you want to emigrate from Norway to the US, it's probably because you suck (I realise I'm saying that as a two-time immigrant). By and large, if you want good people, you're going to want to go to lousy countries, because they're motivated to try to improve their situation. Moving from Norway to the US isn't really an improvement.
   1934. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 12, 2018 at 06:19 PM (#5605731)
For the USA, and other receiving countries, sure. Despite my previously expressed preference for merit-based immigration over family ties chain-based immigration, I'm not sure we should encourage either type of immigration from developing countries. They need those people. Western Europe, Japan, or even South Korea & Taiwan won't miss a few engineers, physicians, lawyers, or unskilled but highly motivated workers. Not so for much of the rest of the world that is harmed by the brain drain and exodus of talent. There would be considerable opposition, and it's probably not worth the political cost, but we aren't really doing the third world any favors by encouraging its citizens to come here.

This reasoning is another attack on our weird Muslim ban. "Well, we shouldn't drain the brains of a country like Iran we're convinced is trying to build nukes. No, sir. That would provoke a political backlash with the ayatollahs, and we sure wouldn't want that."

That's pretty weak. Our immigration policy was designed to thwart Iran's development of nuclear weapons? Or was it to appease the the mullahs? Doesn't seem to have worked that well, and, of course, most of the immigration from developing countries doesn't have anything to do with our policy towards Iran. Again, encouraging legal immigration from developing countries drains them of human capital, so we ought to give some thought to the consequences, and there's no reason to encourage illegal immigration from anywhere.
   1935. manchestermets Posted: January 12, 2018 at 06:20 PM (#5605732)
Are all immigrants equally desirable?


No. Were you, for example, to announce your intention to migrate to my country I would be vigorously oppposed, whereas I would welcome very many Haitian citizens with open arms.
   1936. Zonk wouldn't or would he? Posted: January 12, 2018 at 06:24 PM (#5605733)
Those tired and boring phrases keep coming up because you guys keep refusing to learn from their example. Human nature is real and it cares nothing for your ideology.


Yet, human nature - together with Gorsuch, but Hillary, and He'll sign whatever we put in front of him - only managed 44%.... and all the available evidence suggests that number included a heavy slice of "it's only theoretical" vs the current "OK, it's no longer theoretical"... Despite - as SBB, Clapper, and Ray will gladly tell you - the economy is booming!

   1937. Greg K Posted: January 12, 2018 at 06:27 PM (#5605734)
Is emigration, in general, a net negative for developing nations?

I ask in all honesty, I don't know. At least a few nations seem to rely pretty heavily on remittances. Has the Philippines benefited from having migrants all across the world sending money back home? Or would the nation have been better off with those people staying home?

   1938. Ray (CTL) Posted: January 12, 2018 at 06:29 PM (#5605736)
And you are perfectly correct that he called the countries sh!tholes. He did not call the people sh!tholes. He did, however, call "people from ######## countries" unwanted. Which is still racist.


I thought he was asking why immigrants from these countries had protected or special status -- not that he wanted to stop all immigration from these countries -- but I'm too lazy to go back and look.
   1939. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 12, 2018 at 06:31 PM (#5605738)
There was a fair chunk of the right that, during the Obama administration, acted like the lefty nutjobs here. Maximum outrage, all the time. Everything he said or did, whether innocuous or meant to troll them (Obama did indulge in pushing righty buttons, which is one of the reasons lefties liked him so much). Anyway, they were always convinced that THIS time they had the goods on him and he'd be forced out. They spent 8 years in a constant state of RAEG and never got what they were looking for, although I suppose you could argue for many of them the RAEG was really the entire point.
Yes. We call these people "Trumpistas."
   1940. Traderdave Posted: January 12, 2018 at 06:36 PM (#5605740)


I thought he was asking why immigrants from these countries had protected or special status -- not that he wanted to stop all immigration from these countries -- but I'm too lazy to go back and look.



If that's your takeaway, that's not lazy, that's dumb, dense and obtuse as ####.

   1941. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: January 12, 2018 at 06:43 PM (#5605741)
"Dumb, dense and obtuse as #### is no way to go through life, son."

Ray, if you change your screen name to "RDP: Dumb, Dense and Obtuse as ####\" for 1 month straight I will quit the site.
   1942. Zonk wouldn't or would he? Posted: January 12, 2018 at 06:43 PM (#5605742)
(Obama did indulge in pushing righty buttons, which is one of the reasons lefties liked him so much)


Other than maybe being a little coy* about the birther bullshit, how did he do this besides existing and being elected twice?

The unending professorial manner? The righty button you speak of seems to be the you think you're better than me? YOU THINK YOU'RE BETTER THAN ME?!?! paranoia if ever any aspect of culture is discussed in a multi-syllabic way.

*and really, if you don't think No Drama Obama isn't actually a core part of Obama rather than an act - I hope people would at least give him the political chops credit to understand that the first black President cannot just go all angry black man.
   1943. Spahn Insane Posted: January 12, 2018 at 06:47 PM (#5605743)
And of course, “maybe being a little coy” was more respect than the birther BS frankly deserved.
   1944. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: January 12, 2018 at 06:48 PM (#5605745)
[1942] One example was after Trayvon Martin got shot, he said that Trayvon could have been his son. I know it may sound silly, but a lot of people on the right found that offensive.
   1945. PepTech Posted: January 12, 2018 at 06:51 PM (#5605746)
And you are perfectly correct that he called the countries sh!tholes. He did not call the people sh!tholes. He did, however, call "people from ######## countries" unwanted. Which is still racist.

I thought he was asking why immigrants from these countries had protected or special status -- not that he wanted to stop all immigration from these countries -- but I'm too lazy to go back and look.
There's no transcript, that I'm aware of. He is also credited as saying "Why do we need more Haitians? Take them out," which could hysterically be taken to mean deport all Haitians, but probably means he wishes to strike Haiti from some facet of protected status; for example, it's been eight years since the quake, maybe we don't need as many quake refugees every year. I don't know enough about the details to comment, there may very well be cromulent reasoning there.

We already knew Trump was coarse; I'm not particularly surprised he used "sh!thole" in a quasi-public setting. My objection to the phrase is the implication that "people from XXX country" are inherently less worthy than people from other countries. By making the statement about "African" countries in addition to Haiti, it's hard to not parse the comment as racist, and not just aimed at "poor countries". That may, just possibly, be what he meant. In a vacuum that never heard him talk about Curiel or Mexicans I'd be willing to give him a pass, although reluctantly. With the history of those comments, *and* this, I think "racist" is inescapable.

That doesn't mean he can't accomplish things, or be a successful president, in and of itself. If he had a solid advisory structure that he listened to and which compensated for his racism, it could work. But he doesn't seem to listen to anyone, which means that inevitably his racism will shape his policies. Which is troubling, and very much anti-American.

He's still an effective campaigner and marketer and he's still President. But to fail to denounce him as racist is to enable his racism.
   1946. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: January 12, 2018 at 06:55 PM (#5605747)
[1942] One example was after Trayvon Martin got shot, he said that Trayvon could have been his son. I know it may sound silly, but a lot of people on the right found that offensive.


Of course they did because apparently Obama saying racism exists is offensive. What a joke.
   1947. Zonk wouldn't or would he? Posted: January 12, 2018 at 06:55 PM (#5605748)
[1942] One example was after Trayvon Martin got shot, he said that Trayvon could have been his son. I know it may sound silly, but a lot of people on the right found that offensive.


If that pushed people's buttons, then that's on them - not him.

FFS...
   1948. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 12, 2018 at 06:59 PM (#5605749)
Other than maybe being a little coy* about the birther bullshit, how did he do this besides existing and being elected twice?


He gave his wife a “Terrorist fist jab”. Total troll move.
   1949. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: January 12, 2018 at 07:11 PM (#5605751)
If that pushed people's buttons, then that's on them - not him.


The reason it pissed them off so much because these people pretend to believe that racism doesn't exist -- these are your "I thought that ended with civil rights" and "I don't see color" people. Which is of course absolute horse ####. We all see race. If you think you don't see race you're lying to yourself.

So when Obama says the very true thing that black boys getting killed by white guys and getting away with it hits a little closer to himself, a black father, it pisses them off because Obama is the racist not them, not society! He thinks black people have it worse than white people in some ways! What an ignoramus he is. What a race baiter.

Of course if Trayvon was white Zimmerman probably would have asked him to share some candy instead of accosting and shooting him.

edit: note these are the same folks that refuse to believe that Zimmerman is a "white hispanic" and that that influenced his trial. We have a few here among us.
   1950. Spahn Insane Posted: January 12, 2018 at 07:14 PM (#5605752)
What we can safely conclude from all of this is that, in a discussion of Obama vs. Trump, Obama was clearly the REAL racist.
   1951. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili (TeddyF.Ballgame) Posted: January 12, 2018 at 07:15 PM (#5605753)
Whenever I see the Cluj-Napoca skyline now, I get a little turgid, and I feel incredible guilty.


You should feel guilty. To some of us, the town will always be Kolozsvár. Those of us who've read The Transylvanian Trilogy, that is.
   1952. Spahn Insane Posted: January 12, 2018 at 07:16 PM (#5605754)
Of course they did because apparently Obama saying racism exists is offensive.

Well, to them it is in fact offensive, because being reminded that racism exists reflects poorly on them. And they know it.
   1953. Srul Itza Posted: January 12, 2018 at 07:18 PM (#5605755)
Is it OK to call Venezuela a ########


It is OK to call Maduro a shithead. Is that close enough?
   1954. Srul Itza Posted: January 12, 2018 at 07:25 PM (#5605758)
Diversity undermines social/public trust


Hawaii is remarkably diverse. And social and public trust, and social welfare programs, do just fine here.
   1955. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 12, 2018 at 07:34 PM (#5605760)
Easy for you to say, haole.
   1956. Srul Itza Posted: January 12, 2018 at 07:37 PM (#5605761)
Developed and semi-developed countries which cut off immigration run a very real risk of an aging population turning into a population collapse.

You can talk all you want to about encouraging marriage and encouraging people to have more children, but it simply does not work in a free society.

The influx of young people of the age and urge to start families, from cultures that support it, is the only saving grace for such countries. You don't find that cohort among people with Phds and advanced degrees. You find it among young, ambitious people who are willing to pull up stakes and travel to a new country in the hope of a better, freer, more prosperous life for themselves and their children or hoped for children. I.e., the same immigrant population that has built this country up since forever. The same immigrant population from which almost certainly sprang the vast majority of people posting here.

People who don't understand this, and who work against this, in addition to being stupid and/or ignorant and/or racist and/or xenophobic and/or mean-spirited and/or part of the "pull up the ladder" crowd, are a danger to the future of the country. There is simply nothing good to be said for them.
   1957. Srul Itza Posted: January 12, 2018 at 07:38 PM (#5605762)
Easy for you to say, haole


Eh, you like beef, brah?
   1958. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 12, 2018 at 07:45 PM (#5605763)
Developed and semi-developed countries which cut off immigration run a very real risk of an aging population turning into a population collapse.

You can talk all you want to about encouraging marriage and encouraging people to have more children, but it simply does not work in a free society.

The influx of young people of the age and urge to start families, from cultures that support it, is the only saving grace for such countries. You don't find that cohort among people with Phds and advanced degrees. You find it among young, ambitious people who are willing to pull up stakes and travel to a new country in the hope of a better, freer, more prosperous life for themselves and their children or hoped for children. I.e., the same immigrant population that has built this country up since forever. The same immigrant population from which almost certainly sprang the vast majority of people posting here.

People who don't understand this, and who work against this, in addition to being stupid and/or ignorant and/or racist and/or xenophobic and/or mean-spirited and/or part of the "pull up the ladder" crowd, are a danger to the future of the country. There is simply nothing good to be said for them.

QFT
   1959. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 12, 2018 at 07:55 PM (#5605765)
Wasn't even one of the named shitholes, but the US Ambassador to Panama just decided enough is enough...

Since this was posted twice, without any correction to the misleading impression, in the interests of accuracy it should be noted that the Ambassador to Panama resigned on December 27th, well before President Trump's recent comments.
   1960. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: January 12, 2018 at 07:59 PM (#5605767)
Right, Dancing Monkey #1, the ambassador quit 12/27, adding to the record # of people fleeing this administration in its first year. Nothing to see here.
   1961. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: January 12, 2018 at 08:00 PM (#5605768)
You should send him your resume, Claptrap. You're Trump material.
   1962. Omineca Greg Posted: January 12, 2018 at 08:11 PM (#5605773)
Or for that matter, all the anti-immigrant bigots here: what was so "desirable" about your immigrant ancestors?

At the risk of further confusing people who can't tell the Canadian Gregs apart, I'll post a link to this.

I'm sure I'll owe Mr K. a Coke for this...but here goes...Stewart Lee on UKIP

Every time I watch this I laugh 'til I cry, or maybe cry 'til I laugh...it's hard to tell sometimes.
   1963. Shredder Posted: January 12, 2018 at 08:13 PM (#5605774)
Other than maybe being a little coy* about the birther bullshit, how did he do this besides existing and being elected twice?
By walking around and being so black all the time. You know he only did that to piss off right wingers. If he really wanted to unite people, he should have been less black more often.
   1964. Spahn Insane Posted: January 12, 2018 at 08:38 PM (#5605778)
Shredder nails it.
   1965. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 12, 2018 at 08:40 PM (#5605779)
There would be considerable opposition, and it's probably not worth the political cost, but we aren't really doing the third world any favors by encouraging its citizens to come here.


Well ... here's the thing. I do care about what is best for the US and I care what is best for various less developed countries, but those are a bit more abstract. I also really care about the actual people, both here and in those foreign lands.

And if people want to live in the US, are willing to uproot themselves and make their way here to the land of opportunity, well absent a compelling reason to deny them I think they should be allowed to do so.

I am rather fond of freedom, and one of those freedoms is freedom to live in the country of choosing. Of course the people in those destination countries also get a say, and right now the xenophobes are having their day in the sun here in the US. I bet it wont last.
   1966. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: January 12, 2018 at 08:48 PM (#5605781)
the xenophobes are having their day in the sun here in the US. I bet it wont last.


I agree. The country is where California was at back in 1994 when prop 187 was passed. The country is becoming more diverse and we've hit the tipping point of rage against that. But we'll get over that point and the country will go the way of California.
   1967. Greg K Posted: January 12, 2018 at 08:48 PM (#5605782)
I'm going to have some work to do if I can get the proportion of Stewart Lee references I'm responsible for here back up to 95%.

It is fitting here that in the set up to that bit (which I often miss out when I watch it), Lee does note that Paul Nuttalls from the UKIPs presents his complaint about Bulgarian migration as if his biggest concern is the damage it will do to the Bulgarian economy.
   1968. Spahn Insane Posted: January 12, 2018 at 08:49 PM (#5605783)
They’ve already been exposed for what they are, BM. Gonna be a’ight.
   1969. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:02 PM (#5605784)
Some will be disappointed - WH Doctor: "Trump Is In Excellent Health":
White House doctor Ronny Jackson says President Donald Trump is "in excellent health" following his physical Friday. In a brief statement, Jackson said, "The President's physical exam today at Walter Reed National Military Medical Center went exceptionally well. The President is in excellent health and I look forward to briefing some of the details on Tuesday."

Probably won't stop the unlicensed armchair diagnosticians who post here.
   1970. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:02 PM (#5605785)
So many conservatives, not just white nationalists, are convinced that liberals want more immigrants so they can increase the number of Democratic voters. It is ridiculous.
Is it? Why did Democrats reject any sort of amnesty for illegal immigrants that legalized them without allowing them to become citizens? (You could ask Andy; he's in that camp too.)
   1971. Spahn Insane Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:05 PM (#5605786)
Probably won't stop the unlicensed armchair diagnosticians who post here.

Which seems fair enough, given that your quoted excerpt is notably devoid of specifics (particularly as concerns Dear Leader’s mental state), but hackers gonna hack. (Seriously—apart from the occasional snark about Trump being overweight and keeping a fairly craptastic diet, which hardly distinguishes him from the Bill Clintons of the universe [and is pretty much on the same level as “Michael Moore is fat” jabs], has anyone on Teh Left ever suggested that the concern with Trump is his physical health?)
   1972. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:12 PM (#5605788)
Is it? Why did Democrats reject any sort of amnesty for illegal immigrants that legalized them without allowing them to become citizens?


Because we don't want to create a cohort of second class residents. You know like we mention every time this comes up.
   1973. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:12 PM (#5605789)
Odd. You say you want to take his words at face value, and then you read your "Which is racist" conclusion into his words. Whether that's a valid reading or not -- I'm not opining on that here -- one thing it most certainly isn't is "taking his words at face value."

At face value he calls the countries sh^tholes, not the people. At face value.
Look, Ray makes another bad faith argument in defense of his hero Donald Trump. It must be a day ending in the letter "Y." Nobody denied that he called the countries rather than the people shitholes. So what? Taking his statements at face value does not mean taking isolated sentences out of context.
   1974. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:18 PM (#5605790)

Because we don't want to create a cohort of second class residents. You know like we mention every time this comes up.
That's just repeating the question, not answering it. "We don't want to do it because we don't want to do it." Non-citizens are a different class of resident than citizens in every country in every planet in the history of the universe. Why are illegal immigrants to the U.S. somehow the one group who can't be non-citizen residents of a country?
   1975. PreservedFish Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:22 PM (#5605791)
So many conservatives, not just white nationalists, are convinced that liberals want more immigrants so they can increase the number of Democratic voters. It is ridiculous.

Is it?


I can assure you that actual liberals have an honest love of diversity and a true generosity of spirit towards non-Americans that results in a positive view towards immigration. Very, very few derive their views on immigration from a cynical calculation on whether or not it increases the number of Dem votes. (Although it's possible that the politicians make up most of those very very few)
   1976. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:24 PM (#5605792)
Instead of realizing immigrants will save social security you're concerned they'll receive benefits. A lose-lose for libertarians.
   1977. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:27 PM (#5605794)
They’ve already been exposed for what they are, BM. Gonna be a’ight.


Yup, sunlight is the best disinfectant.
   1978. Zonk wouldn't or would he? Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:27 PM (#5605795)
Some will be disappointed - WH Doctor: "Trump Is In Excellent Health":


What Clapper doesn't note is that the first instance of the release from the WH -- used as source for his link -- misspelled his name "Ronnie" Jackson, before quickly being corrected.... Apparently, Dr. Jackson temporarily forgot how to spell his name in the announcement he supplied the White House that they then just released without any spin.

   1979. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:30 PM (#5605796)
Merit based immigration (or perhaps, needs based immigration) makes a lot of sense.

For the USA, and other receiving countries, sure. Despite my previously expressed preference for merit-based immigration over family ties chain-based immigration, I'm not sure we should encourage either type of immigration from developing countries. They need those people. Western Europe, Japan, or even South Korea & Taiwan won't miss a few engineers, physicians, lawyers, or unskilled but highly motivated workers. Not so for much of the rest of the world that is harmed by the brain drain and exodus of talent. There would be considerable opposition, and it's probably not worth the political cost, but we aren't really doing the third world any favors by encouraging its citizens to come here.
That's an argument typically made by progressives, and it's immoral. Doctors or engineers from developing countries are not the property of those countries, and should not be held hostage to those countries' circumstances.
   1980. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:31 PM (#5605797)
That's just repeating the question, not answering it. "We don't want to do it because we don't want to do it." Non-citizens are a different class of resident than citizens in every country in every planet in the history of the universe. Why are illegal immigrants to the U.S. somehow the one group who can't be non-citizen residents of a country?


I am sorry the answer annoys you, but that is the answer. Now the last few times this has come up we have walked through why we don't want second class residents in bulk in the US, but there you have it.
   1981. Srul Itza Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:31 PM (#5605798)
we aren't really doing the third world any favors by encouraging its citizens to come here.


When's the last time they did us a favor?
   1982. Srul Itza Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:32 PM (#5605799)
the country will go the way of California



As that necessarily a good thing?

"Living in California is like living in a bowl of granola...them that ain't fruits and nuts is flakes" - Gallagher

   1983. tshipman Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:34 PM (#5605800)
That's an argument typically made by progressives, and it's immoral. Doctors or engineers from developing countries are not the property of those countries, and should not be held hostage to those countries' circumstances.


Yup, this is right on. People deserve the right to make their own destiny.

That's just repeating the question, not answering it. "We don't want to do it because we don't want to do it." Non-citizens are a different class of resident than citizens in every country in every planet in the history of the universe. Why are illegal immigrants to the U.S. somehow the one group who can't be non-citizen residents of a country?


Because it's un-American. We literally fought a war to prevent taxation without representation, and you want to put people in that box?

I mean, it's better than deportation, so if I had to make a deal, I'd do it, but it's not the goal. The goal is treating my fellow man like an equal.
   1984. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:34 PM (#5605801)
Some will be disappointed - WH Doctor: "Trump Is In Excellent Health":
White House doctor Ronny Jackson says President Donald Trump is "in excellent health" following his physical Friday. In a brief statement, Jackson said, "The President's physical exam today at Walter Reed National Military Medical Center went exceptionally well. The President is in excellent health and I look forward to briefing some of the details on Tuesday."

Probably won't stop the unlicensed armchair diagnosticians who post here.

Given that this exam didn't include any neurological examination, it hardly addresses the most obvious concern about Trump.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So many conservatives, not just white nationalists, are convinced that liberals want more immigrants so they can increase the number of Democratic voters. It is ridiculous.

Is it? Why did Democrats reject any sort of amnesty for illegal immigrants that legalized them without allowing them to become citizens? (You could ask Andy; he's in that camp too.)

First, did Republicans favor opening the floodgates to Cuban refugees solely because they were reliably Republican voters? Did any of them suggest legalizing them without offering a similar path to citizenship?

Or is it possible that many people of both parties simply look at the situation of the countries that people are fleeing and empathize with their struggles?

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I see no reason why an amnesty (if you want to call it that) along the lines of the bipartisan Senate-passed immigration reform bill of 2013, shouldn't include an eventual path to citizenship (after meeting many conditions), any more than I think that refugees from Cuba or the former USSR should have been forced to live in a halfway house state of being. The difference between the Cubans and the Mexicans/Salvadorians is usually presented as "the Cubans played by the rules". And that's true, but it ignores the counterpoint that the only reason the Cubans "played by the rules" is because "the rules" were rigged in their favor.
   1985. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:34 PM (#5605802)
Which seems fair enough, given that your quoted excerpt is notably devoid of specifics (particularly as concerns Dear Leader’s mental state) . . .

I would hazard a guess that the only reason the detailed presentation is scheduled for Tuesday, rather than done today, is merely to avoid the snarky suggestion that the WH was "burying" the story of the President's health by releasing results of his physical on the the Friday afternoon of a holiday weekend. Presumably, the usual details will be released Tuesday.
   1986. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:34 PM (#5605803)
That's an argument typically made by progressives, and it's immoral. Doctors or engineers from developing countries are not the property of those countries, and should not be held hostage to those countries' circumstances.


Go see #1965. This progressive cares deeply about people having freedom.
   1987. Srul Itza Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:34 PM (#5605804)
Because we don't want to create a cohort of second class residents.



Speak for yourself. David is just fine with a permanent underclass, as long as they get his latte order right.
   1988. PreservedFish Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:35 PM (#5605805)
There would be considerable opposition, and it's probably not worth the political cost, but we aren't really doing the third world any favors by encouraging its citizens to come here.


This seems like the type of claim that you could spend a career trying to evaluate without actually discovering the truth of the matter.
   1989. Omineca Greg Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:36 PM (#5605806)
David is just fine with a permanent underclass, as long as they get his latte order right.

David drinks coffee?
   1990. Srul Itza Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:37 PM (#5605807)
Non-citizens are a different class of resident than citizens in every country in every planet in the history of the universe. Why are illegal immigrants to the U.S. somehow the one group who can't be non-citizen residents of a country?


I would like to attack this argument.

But frankly, David is right.

As long as they are allowed to live here in peace, and earn their living, there is no reason why they need to be "citizens". Their children born here, of course, will be.

   1991. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:38 PM (#5605809)

That's why for hardcore libertarians, the Diversity Cult actually makes a lot of sense; in a fragmented, low trust society, people don't want high taxes or social spending because nobody trusts anybody else to follow the rules and use/distribute such money fairly.
This is a nutty conspiracy theory; it may be held by the white supremacists that TGF hangs out with, but there are no libertarians who support any sort of "diversity cult" because we hope it will lead to a shrinkage in government.

And when we look at the most fervent supporters of diversity, what do we see? Billionaires. Big, corporate media (usually the wholly owned mouthpieces of billionaires). The very people who don't want to shell out their precious money on social programs for the poors.
And of course there's no truth to any of this, either. Needs more (((Soros))), too.
   1992. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:39 PM (#5605810)

Are all immigrants equally desirable?
No; the ones who raise their kids to grow up to be Trump supporters are pretty undesirable.
   1993. Srul Itza Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:40 PM (#5605811)
Because it's un-American. We literally fought a war to prevent taxation without representation, and you want to put people in that box?


Except that they did not come here legally. They came in illegally to make a better life for themselves. If we let them stay permanently, and earn a living without fear of deportation, including for minor crimes or such, and we give their children citizenship, then they have gotten what they are entitled to and then some.

Every country has non-citizens living long term, who don't vote.
   1994. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:44 PM (#5605812)
Which seems fair enough, given that your quoted excerpt is notably devoid of specifics (particularly as concerns Dear Leader’s mental state) . . .

I would hazard a guess that the only reason the detailed presentation is scheduled for Tuesday, rather than done today, is merely to avoid the snarky suggestion that the WH was "burying" the story of the President's health by releasing results of his physical on the the Friday afternoon of a holiday weekend. Presumably, the usual details will be released Tuesday.

Clapper, you're getting more evasive by the minute. Your response here doesn't even begin to address Spahn's point about Trump's mental state, which I would rephrase as Trump's neurological condition. As the link you provided noted, there was no neurological examination.
   1995. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:47 PM (#5605813)
David is just fine with a permanent underclass, as long as they get his latte order right.

David drinks coffee?

Well, you do often see that his comments are made in the middle of the night, and as he's a lawyer I'm sure he's not using any illegal substances.
   1996. tshipman Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:47 PM (#5605814)
Except that they did not come here legally. They came in illegally to make a better life for themselves. If we let them stay permanently, and earn a living without fear of deportation, including for minor crimes or such, and we give their children citizenship, then they have gotten what they are entitled to and then some.

Every country has non-citizens living long term, who don't vote.


But all of them have the option of getting citizenship. You can't take that away from people just because they wanted to be part of this so badly that they didn't follow the rules.

People used to say that the United States was exceptional, a city on the hill. I don't give a #### if Switzerland is fine with preventing people from having a say in the way their country runs. I care that people who live here get to have a say.
   1997. Srul Itza Posted: January 12, 2018 at 09:53 PM (#5605816)
But all of them have the option of getting citizenship.


Not all of them. Different countries have different rules about granting citizenship.

You can't take that away from people just because they wanted to be part of this so badly that they didn't follow the rules.


Wanting something really, really bad is not an excuse for ignoring the law.

I care that people who live here get to have a say.


That is a personal preference. I can understand it. I and a lot of other people don't feel that way.

Frankly, the people who snuck in or overstayed their visas did not do so on the assumption that they were going to become voting citizens. They did so, knowing that under the rules, any day they could be escorted to a plane and sent away. If we decide to forgive that, and let them stay permanently, with all the rights of a citizen except the right to vote, then they are way ahead of the game. They should sing Dayenu.
   1998. Srul Itza Posted: January 12, 2018 at 10:02 PM (#5605818)
I would also note that the suggestion that these new citizens would automatically become Democratic Party voters surprises me. I would expect the Rs to assume that such hard working people who often have strong religious convictions would naturally gravitate to the party of free enterprise and godliness.

I am shocked that they have so little faith in the ideology they are peddling.
   1999. zenbitz Posted: January 12, 2018 at 10:04 PM (#5605819)
So many conservatives, not just white nationalists, are convinced that liberals want more immigrants so they can increase the number of Democratic voters. It is ridiculous.


This is true. Because as previous data posted here shows, immigrants and predominantly successful and well educated so naturally they vote Democrat.
   2000. zenbitz Posted: January 12, 2018 at 10:13 PM (#5605820)
What about freedom, Ray? Shouldn't people -- unless they have committed some egregious crime -- have the right to choose where they live and try to make the best of their opportunities?

And seriously YC? Coming down on the families of immigrants as "less desirable"? Gee, I wonder why Republicans have the reputation for being heartless.
Page 20 of 24 pages ‹ First  < 18 19 20 21 22 >  Last ›

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

News

All News | Prime News

Old-School Newsstand


BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
phredbird
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogOTP 2018 July 16: Why Does President Trump Balk At Attending Baseball Games?
(1034 - 7:11pm, Jul 19)
Last: Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 7-19-2018
(32 - 6:48pm, Jul 19)
Last: Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant

NewsblogIndians deal for ace reliever Brad Hand
(21 - 6:44pm, Jul 19)
Last: the Hugh Jorgan returns

NewsblogManny Machado blockbuster makes Dodgers the NL's team to beat
(12 - 6:18pm, Jul 19)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogOT: Soccer Thread (World Cup)
(3245 - 6:01pm, Jul 19)
Last: Sean Forman

NewsblogOT - 2018 NBA Summer Potpourri (finals, draft, free agency, Colangelo dragging)
(3459 - 5:45pm, Jul 19)
Last: JJ1986

Gonfalon CubsLooking Forward
(29 - 5:44pm, Jul 19)
Last: Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington

NewsblogRob Manfred: Mike Trout limits his popularity because he won't market himself
(92 - 5:24pm, Jul 19)
Last: Never Give an Inge (Dave)

NewsblogIs one game really worth an OMNCHATTER! for July 19, 2018
(8 - 3:42pm, Jul 19)
Last: Perry

NewsblogIs Chase Utley a Hall of Famer?
(71 - 2:17pm, Jul 19)
Last: this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant

NewsblogOT Gaming: October 2015
(799 - 1:31pm, Jul 19)
Last: Paul d mobile

Newsblog10 Years Ago, Two Trades Broke The Mold For MLB Deadline Deals
(17 - 1:29pm, Jul 19)
Last: Howie Menckel

NewsblogOT - Catch-All Pop Culture Extravaganza (let's call it July 2018)
(587 - 12:09pm, Jul 19)
Last: stig-tossled,hornswoggled gef the talking mongoose

NewsblogAaron Judge — Huge Talent, Phenomenal Trade Bait
(11 - 12:05pm, Jul 19)
Last: ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

NewsblogOrioles have deal in place for Manny Machado, working through trade specifics
(22 - 11:47am, Jul 19)
Last: McCoy

Page rendered in 0.7580 seconds
46 querie(s) executed