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Monday, January 08, 2018

OTP 8 January 2018: Lawsuits could change the rules in North Carolina politics, balance of power in Raleigh

Jake Quinn says his main job when he umpires baseball games as a volunteer for North Asheville Little League is to ensure each team is treated fairly.

“Before the first pitch is thrown, the score is 0-0 and the team that scores the most runs during the game wins the game,” he said.

But, he says, “That’s not the way elections work. With gerrymandering, one team starts out in the lead. That’s fundamentally unfair.”

 

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 08, 2018 at 07:54 AM | 2393 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: little league, off topic, politics, umpire

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   2001. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 12, 2018 at 10:29 PM (#5605821)
I would hazard a guess that the only reason the detailed presentation is scheduled for Tuesday, rather than done today, is merely to avoid the snarky suggestion that the WH was "burying" the story of the President's health by releasing results of his physical on the the Friday afternoon of a holiday weekend. Presumably, the usual details will be released Tuesday.

Clapper, you're getting more evasive by the minute. Your response here doesn't even begin to address Spahn's point about Trump's mental state, which I would rephrase as Trump's neurological condition. As the link you provided noted, there was no neurological examination.

The "need" for a neurological exam is your fixation, part of the never-ending effort to undermine Trump at every turn. Let's see if the White House physicians share your amateurish assessment that additional medical tests are needed. My post simply explained why the detailed presentation that might address that is scheduled for Tuesday, rather than today.
   2002. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 12, 2018 at 10:29 PM (#5605822)

I thought he was asking why immigrants from these countries had protected or special status -- not that he wanted to stop all immigration from these countries -- but I'm too lazy to go back and look.
Not too lazy to post twenty or thirty posts on the subject, but too lazy to spend one minute looking to realize that all twenty or thirty of those posts were based on something in your head rather than what happened.
   2003. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 12, 2018 at 10:40 PM (#5605825)
Because it's un-American. We literally fought a war to prevent taxation without representation, and you want to put people in that box?
I'm not putting them in the box; they put themselves in that box voluntarily.


Seriously, I don't get your mindset. If you went on vacation to France and decided you really liked it and wanted to stay, and just did so without authorization, would you expect that they would just make you a citizen just because it would be somehow unfair to make you live there as a non-citizen?
   2004. Joe Bivens Recognizes the Kenyan Precedent Posted: January 12, 2018 at 10:41 PM (#5605826)
I don't think Trump is neurologically impaired. I think he's a con artist who's been cornered. His doubletalk buys him time, he thinks. I would tell him "guess what, Fatso? Tick tock, tick tock."
   2005. Joe Bivens Recognizes the Kenyan Precedent Posted: January 12, 2018 at 10:43 PM (#5605827)
And then I'd whisper "Mueller!"
   2006. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 12, 2018 at 10:46 PM (#5605828)
What about freedom, Ray? Shouldn't people -- unless they have committed some egregious crime -- have the right to choose where they live and try to make the best of their opportunities?


? Which comment of mine are you responding to?
   2007. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 12, 2018 at 10:48 PM (#5605829)
Seriously, I don't get your mindset. If you went on vacation to France and decided you really liked it and wanted to stay, and just did so without authorization, would you expect that they would just make you a citizen just because it would be unfair to make you live there as a non-citizen?


I don't care about France and what they do. Here in the US the reality is we have a bunch of people who live here illegally, and we can't deport them all reasonably.

Our options are leave them as illegal, grant them a legal but second class residency, or grant them a path to citizenship. Of those three I believe the best option for the US and for them is to give them a path to citizenship.
   2008. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 12, 2018 at 10:51 PM (#5605830)
grant them a legal but second class residency, or grant them a path to citizenship. Of those three I believe the best option for the US and for them is to give them a path to citizenship
Because you want their votes. There is nothing "second class" about living in a country as a non-citizen. In fact, in addition to the roughly 12m illegals, there are a like number of legal non-citizen residents already living in the U.S.
   2009. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 12, 2018 at 10:59 PM (#5605832)
Because you want their votes. There is nothing "second class" about living in a country as a non-citizen. In fact, in addition to the roughly 12m illegals, there are a like number of legal non-citizen residents already living in the U.S.


Wrong again Amazo the Mind Reader. I believe the citizens are more engaged in the place they live than second class citizens are. It is basically the same theory regarding home owners are more engaged in their community than renters are.

More engaged citizens are better for the country and of course having full citizenship is better for them as well.

Like I said better for them and for the country. I think it is a better policy to do it that way. The likely political gain is just a nice bonus, but even if they voted for Satan himself I would still argue they should be citizens.
   2010. tshipman Posted: January 12, 2018 at 11:10 PM (#5605835)
Seriously, I don't get your mindset. If you went on vacation to France and decided you really liked it and wanted to stay, and just did so without authorization, would you expect that they would just make you a citizen just because it would be somehow unfair to make you live there as a non-citizen?


1. I don't give a #### about France and what they decide to do.
2. I'm not saying that we should wave a wand and make them citizens. I'm saying that we should not prevent them from becoming citizens. I don't care if it's a 5 year process, a 10 year process, whatever. Otherwise you're taking more away than you're giving.
   2011. BrianBrianson Posted: January 12, 2018 at 11:29 PM (#5605837)
Every country has non-citizens living long term, who don't vote.


As a non-citizen living in the UK, I paid taxes and voted.

As a no-citizen living in the US, I pay taxes and am not allowed to vote.

It is different.
   2012. greenback wears sandals on his head Posted: January 12, 2018 at 11:32 PM (#5605838)
As a non-citizen living in the UK, I paid taxes and voted.

I did not know that. What is the advantage of being a citizen in the UK?
   2013. Spahn Insane, stool of Tarantino Posted: January 12, 2018 at 11:34 PM (#5605839)
The "need" for a neurological exam is your fixation, part of the never-ending effort to undermine Trump at every turn.

For the record, I'm quite open to the possibility that Trump is not mentally impaired, but is merely a complete ####### idiot. HTH.
   2014. Spahn Insane, stool of Tarantino Posted: January 12, 2018 at 11:34 PM (#5605841)
I would hazard a guess that the only reason the detailed presentation is scheduled for Tuesday, rather than done today, is merely to avoid the snarky suggestion that the WH was "burying" the story of the President's health by releasing results of his physical on the the Friday afternoon of a holiday weekend. Presumably, the usual details will be released Tuesday.

Notwithstanding my post above:

Uh-huh. Sure. Consistent with the transparency we've come to expect of this administration.
   2015. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 12, 2018 at 11:36 PM (#5605842)

2. I'm not saying that we should wave a wand and make them citizens. I'm saying that we should not prevent them from becoming citizens. I don't care if it's a 5 year process, a 10 year process, whatever. Otherwise you're taking more away than you're giving.
I'm not taking a single thing away.

(I don't know what you mean by "prevent" them from becoming citizens; naturalization is not something organic, but something given by the government. Not giving someone a special privilege is not fairly characterized as preventing him from doing it. It's like saying that the Nobel Prize committee is "preventing" me from being the next Peace Prize winner by not awarding me the honor.)
   2016. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 12, 2018 at 11:41 PM (#5605844)

I did not know that. What is the advantage of being a citizen in the UK?
I think Mr. BB is being a bit... sneaky. The UK allows Irish and Commonwealth citizens who are resident in the UK to vote, because they treat such people as only quasi-foreign. They don't just let random foreigners who live there vote.
   2017. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 12, 2018 at 11:44 PM (#5605845)
I would hazard a guess that the only reason the detailed presentation is scheduled for Tuesday, rather than done today, is merely to avoid the snarky suggestion that the WH was "burying" the story of the President's health by releasing results of his physical on the the Friday afternoon of a holiday weekend. Presumably, the usual details will be released Tuesday.

Clapper, you're getting more evasive by the minute. Your response here doesn't even begin to address Spahn's point about Trump's mental state, which I would rephrase as Trump's neurological condition. As the link you provided noted, there was no neurological examination.

The "need" for a neurological exam is your fixation, part of the never-ending effort to undermine Trump at every turn. Let's see if the White House physicians share your amateurish assessment that additional medical tests are needed. My post simply explained why the detailed presentation that might address that is scheduled for Tuesday, rather than today.


Is that White House physician a neurologist?

Seriously, we have a man who's shown repeated symptoms of at least the possibility of neurological damage. Given his position at President of the United States, why on Earth would you NOT want to see if there's anything causing those symptoms other than 11th Dimensional Chess?

Unless, of course, like Trump, you're afraid of what that neurological test might reveal. Which wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, given your own current position as the Sarah Sanders of BTF.
   2018. Mike A Posted: January 12, 2018 at 11:50 PM (#5605846)
"Many people have called to my attention the continuing danger to our nation from the possibility of a U.S. president becoming disabled, particularly by a neurologic illness. The great weakness of the Twenty-Fifth Amendment is its provision for determining disability in the event that the president is unable or unwilling to certify to impairment or disability."

That was from Jimmy Carter in 1994. He proposed a non-partisan group of experts to evaluate the President's mental fitness yearly. Doesn't seem like a bad idea. Now I have no idea if Trump is in any sort of mental distress, but I think we've seen at least some reason to be a little concerned (particularly his changing speech patterns).

If Reagan were President a while longer, it would have certainly been an issue. The difference between Trump and Reagan is I believe Reagan would have been properly advised and would have stepped down for the good of the country. Trump...well...I just don't know.
   2019. tshipman Posted: January 12, 2018 at 11:51 PM (#5605847)
I'm not taking a single thing away.

(I don't know what you mean by "prevent" them from becoming citizens; naturalization is not something organic, but something given by the government. Not giving someone a special privilege is not fairly characterized as preventing him from doing it. It's like saying that the Nobel Prize committee is "preventing" me from being the next Peace Prize winner by not awarding me the honor.)


Every person in the world can become a citizen of the US. They have to file paperwork and it takes far too long, but they have the option.

The deals proposed involve preventing anyone who came to the country illegally from becoming a citizen via those channels. You're taking the option to become an American citizen away. You're asking people to choose between freedom and safety.
   2020. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 12, 2018 at 11:54 PM (#5605848)
I don't know what you mean by "prevent" them from becoming citizens; naturalization is not something organic, but something given by the government.

This is true, but is there any particular moral reason why Hungarians and Cubans should've been given a chance at citizenship upon fleeing from possible persecution,** while Mexicans and Salvadorians who are fleeing gang violence shouldn't be accorded the same opportunity?

And since you've opened the door to questioning other people's motives (see #2008), would the tendency of Hungarian and Cuban refugees to vote Republican have anything to do with your position?

P.S. As I've said before many times, I thought sending Elian Gonzales back to Cuba was a shameful act on the part of the Clinton administration. Humanitarian concerns shouldn't be a partisan matter.

** An assumption of persecution that was made for them as a group. They didn't have to show any particular evidence that they were persecuted as individuals.

   2021. greenback wears sandals on his head Posted: January 13, 2018 at 12:07 AM (#5605849)
I thought sending Elian Gonzales back to Cuba was a shameful act on the part of the Clinton administration.

Shameful? His mom was dead and he went back to Cuba to live with his dad. This wasn't even a Walter Polovchak situation.
   2022. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2018 at 12:15 AM (#5605851)
Is that White House physician a neurologist?

Are you any kind of a physician?
   2023. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2018 at 12:24 AM (#5605852)
This is true, but is there any particular moral reason why Hungarians and Cubans should've been given a chance at citizenship upon fleeing from possible persecution,** while Mexicans and Salvadorians who are fleeing gang violence shouldn't be accorded the same opportunity?

The distinction between legal and illegal immigration is lost of Andy. If you want unauthorized entrants from Mexico, Central America, and who knows where to be treated the same as refugees fleeing Communist dictators, get Congress to authorize that. For what seems like obvious reasons, few want to run on that platform, but wish to arrive at that result by the back door.
   2024. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2018 at 12:28 AM (#5605853)
Shameful? His mom was dead and he went back to Cuba to live with his dad.

His mother gave her life trying to bring her son to freedom. Sending him back to a Communist dictatorship, against the wishes of his relatives in the United States, was horrific.
   2025. greenback wears sandals on his head Posted: January 13, 2018 at 01:03 AM (#5605856)
His mother gave her life trying to bring her son to freedom. Sending him back to a Communist dictatorship, against the wishes of his relatives in the United States, was horrific.

I'm pleased to see you recognize that we should allow immigrants from #### holes to come to the United States, if they are so inclined. I'm also pleased to see that you recognize the value of chain migration. However, his mother did something foolhardy that nearly got the boy killed. More to the point, she was dead at the time of Clinton's allegedly shameful and horrific act, so she didn't get a vote on where the child should be raised. Perhaps she should have considered this possibility before hopping onto a dodgy boat headed into difficult weather.
   2026. tshipman Posted: January 13, 2018 at 01:17 AM (#5605857)
If you want unauthorized entrants from Mexico, Central America, and who knows where to be treated the same as refugees fleeing Communist dictators, get Congress to authorize that. For what seems like obvious reasons, few want to run on that platform, but wish to arrive at that result by the back door.


Why is gang violence better than Communism?

5 year olds don't care if the guns were purchased by the state or not.
   2027. Lassus Posted: January 13, 2018 at 06:19 AM (#5605860)
Has Trump's hush money to a porn star to cover up an alleged sexual assault even made it to this page yet?
   2028. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 13, 2018 at 06:29 AM (#5605861)
Clapper, #1969:
Some will be disappointed - WH Doctor: "Trump Is In Excellent Health" ...Probably won't stop the unlicensed armchair diagnosticians who post here.


Says the poster who was giggly about the prospect of failing health for Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
   2029. Morty Causa Posted: January 13, 2018 at 06:41 AM (#5605862)

The distinction between legal and illegal immigration is lost of Andy.


And he is certainly not unique. Our inclination--for most of us--is to hold forth and act as if we exist as discrete legal-political islands accountable to nothing and no one, and all else--including, and especially, political institutions and laws--must fall before our precious sensibilities and views. That's what makes the opinions of most of us useless and worthless. And, if you allow yourself the proper pause, frightening and deeply repulsive.
   2030. Hysterical & Useless Posted: January 13, 2018 at 06:58 AM (#5605863)
That's what makes the opinions of most of us useless


Hey, I represent that remark!
   2031. BDC Posted: January 13, 2018 at 08:03 AM (#5605864)
I think one element of the left's thinking on illegal immigration is that it takes several to make a crime: traffickers, employers, consumers, stockholders. The right (and libertarians for some reason, at least our local sort) are intent on placing all the burden on the immigrants, who are then outlaws in their very existence, by definition. The left looks at the situation and says, we hire them, we benefit from their presence, we exploit them. Maybe they aren't 100% to blame here.
   2032. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 13, 2018 at 08:13 AM (#5605866)
Is that White House physician a neurologist?

Are you any kind of a physician?


Somehow I think my question is a bit more germane than yours, given that I've yet to be called to the White House to examine Trump. Once again your complete lack of curiosity about even the possibility of neurological damage affecting the president of the United States is more than a bit telling.
   2033. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 13, 2018 at 08:35 AM (#5605869)
This is true, but is there any particular moral reason why Hungarians and Cubans should've been given a chance at citizenship upon fleeing from possible persecution,** while Mexicans and Salvadorians who are fleeing gang violence shouldn't be accorded the same opportunity?

The distinction between legal and illegal immigration is lost of Andy. If you want unauthorized entrants from Mexico, Central America, and who knows where to be treated the same as refugees fleeing Communist dictators, get Congress to authorize that. For what seems like obvious reasons, few want to run on that platform, but wish to arrive at that result by the back door.


Again you evade the moral question. At one point Cubans who arrived via boats fleeing Castro were just as illegal as today's refugees from gang violence. And Hungarians fleeing after the 1956 uprising overstayed their visas. In both of these cases, Congress then provided them with a path to citizenship. Perhaps there's a moral distinction to be made between being sent back to the loving arms of Communist dictators and being sent back to the loving arms of Salvadorian gangs, but it's not one that I think that Jesus might have made.

Of course since refugees fleeing Communism usually turn out to be reliable Republican voters, if I were using David's logic it wouldn't take much imagination to figure out the reason you're so solicitous of the former group and so stonehearted about the latter. You can see the humanity of Elian Gonzalez, and that's commendable, but not that of a child whom you'd send back to the gangs of Mexico or El Salvador. This is where you need to catch up on your Niemoller and start pondering his message.
   2034. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 13, 2018 at 08:37 AM (#5605870)
Why is gang violence better than Communism?

Because Donald Trump and Jeff Sessions say so. End of discussion.
   2035. Greg K Posted: January 13, 2018 at 08:38 AM (#5605871)
Why is gang violence better than Communism?

I blame David Simon and Stringer Bell.
   2036. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 13, 2018 at 08:42 AM (#5605872)
I'm pleased to see you recognize that we should allow immigrants from #### holes to come to the United States, if they are so inclined. I'm also pleased to see that you recognize the value of chain migration. However, his mother did something foolhardy that nearly got the boy killed. More to the point, she was dead at the time of Clinton's allegedly shameful and horrific act, so she didn't get a vote on where the child should be raised. Perhaps she should have considered this possibility before hopping onto a dodgy boat headed into difficult weather.

Do you realize that this is the exact same argument that the right wing makes about Central American and Mexican parents who take their children on a treacherous journey across the desert? How stupid must they also be? How stupid were the Jewish DPs who fled to Palestine in the aftermath of World War II?

At some point you might want to consider that these aren't really the questions that settle the argument.
   2037. PreservedFish Posted: January 13, 2018 at 09:04 AM (#5605875)
Why is gang violence better than Communism?

What % of illegal immigrants from Mexico and Central America are primarily fleeing gang violence?
   2038. BrianBrianson Posted: January 13, 2018 at 09:17 AM (#5605879)
I don't think I was being sneaky. The UK does allow Commonwealth and EU citizens who're residents there to vote. The point is that it makes you a more engaged member of the community. Not as much as being a citizen, probably.

I would guess that (Commonwealth + EU) covers most people on earth, to boot
   2039. Greg K Posted: January 13, 2018 at 09:33 AM (#5605882)
It's funny. My supervisors were shocked to learn that I was tossed into the general "non-EU" bucket as an international student in the UK. Not that they thought Canada was in the EU (maybe some day!) but they assumed that there would be some category that treats us Commonwealth folk separate from the rest of the globe's scum.

Maybe there was and I just missed out.
   2040. SteveF Posted: January 13, 2018 at 09:34 AM (#5605883)
I would guess that (Commonwealth + EU) covers most people on earth, to boot

It's about 3 billion by my estimate. So technically no, but the spirit of your point stands. You weren't being all that sneaky.
   2041. Count Posted: January 13, 2018 at 09:52 AM (#5605884)
Re 2008- this is what I mean. There's nothing in what you're responding to suggesting that liberals want to create a path towards citizenship because they want votes. It's a bizarre fixation.
   2042. Fergal Posted: January 13, 2018 at 10:16 AM (#5605887)
The UK does allow Commonwealth and EU citizens who're residents there to vote


EU citizens only in local elections, hence they couldn’t vote in the Brexit referendum. Exception is Irish citizens, who can vote in all UK elections.
   2043. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 13, 2018 at 10:16 AM (#5605888)
Re 2008- this is what I mean. There's nothing in what you're responding to suggesting that liberals want to create a path towards citizenship because they want votes. It's a bizarre fixation.


I don't know that it is bizarre. The reverse calculation is 100% true. Conservatives want to prevent a path to citizenship and one huge reason for that is how they fear those new citizens will vote. Similarly they are dead set against statehood for DC and Puerto Rico and thus being OK with taxation without representation - because they fear what will happen in those two new states.

Since they are driven by political concerns on those subjects, they of course assume the other side is consumed by them as well. It is wrong, but I wouldn't say bizarre.
   2044. Greg K Posted: January 13, 2018 at 10:24 AM (#5605890)
EU citizens only in local elections, hence they couldn’t vote in the Brexit referendum. Exception is Irish citizens, who can vote in all UK elections.

In the interests of pedantry, EU citizens can also vote in European elections in the UK. But as there is not really an equivalent to European parliament in the US (or anywhere else in the world really), it's not a terribly important point.

EDIT: Of course, as the next EU elections are in the summer of 2019, it's possible that no one in the UK will vote in a European election ever again anyway. Or I should say, have their vote counted in the UK.
   2045. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 13, 2018 at 10:31 AM (#5605891)
Nothing to see here. Move along. This is not the politics you are looking for. The case that Democrats could win back the House keeps getting stronger
   2046. Joe Bivens Recognizes the Kenyan Precedent Posted: January 13, 2018 at 10:42 AM (#5605894)

Are you any kind of a physician?


I'm not, but I can spell my own name correctly, unlike Dr. Ronnie. If it was Dr. Ronnie who authored that statement. Creepy Clapper Monkey
   2047. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: January 13, 2018 at 10:58 AM (#5605895)
The obsession with votes by racists and their enablers is simply a mirror function of their own cynicism.
   2048. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 13, 2018 at 11:23 AM (#5605897)
I wouldn't knock Dr. Jackson, if for no other reason that he wasn't hired by Trump, and he's been the White House physician since 2013. He's obviously well qualified for his job.

What is appropriate to ask, however, is whether he's a neurologist, given that Trump's repeatedly exhibited symptoms that are possibly correlated with neurological damage.

And what's also appropriate to ask is why Trump apparently won't be given a neurological examination. Given his frequent signs of erratic behavior that only seem to be getting worse, it's hard not to infer that the answer is that he's afraid of what such an examination might reveal.
   2049. Zonk, Genius of the Stables Posted: January 13, 2018 at 11:24 AM (#5605899)
Uh-oh.

Looks like we're gonna need a bigger Elba!

James O'Keefe says Trump asked him to go on birther-linked mission
   2050. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 11:40 AM (#5605902)

Every person in the world can become a citizen of the US. They have to file paperwork and it takes far too long, but they have the option.
There are several ways I can interpret this, but none of them are remotely true, so what exactly are you thinking of? It isn't just a matter of filling out paperwork; the vast (vast vast vast) majority of people in the world have no chance to become a U.S. citizen. Some (like illegal immigrants) because of something they've done; the bulk because there's just no category of eligibility that applies to them.
   2051. BDC Posted: January 13, 2018 at 11:41 AM (#5605903)
The obsession with votes by racists and their enablers is simply a mirror function of their own cynicism

Yes. It also becomes a self-reinforcing attitude. "You're a rapist from a ####hole, please vote for me. What, no? You must be a minion of the carpetbagging left."
   2052. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 11:49 AM (#5605906)
What is appropriate to ask, however, is whether he's a neurologist, given that Trump's repeatedly exhibited symptoms that are possibly correlated with neurological damage.


No, that an oversell. You don’t need to be a neurologist to test for signs of dementia. In fact there is a basic behavioral panel of questions called the MMSE that is designed to give non-neurologist clinicians a basic tool for determining if additional testing for dementia-related decide is warranted. The only meaningful question is whether this was part of the exam.

There are other similar types of behavioral assessments that can be administered by a primary care physician. Don’t get hung up on neurological credentials.
   2053. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 11:50 AM (#5605907)
Again you evade the moral question. At one point Cubans who arrived via boats fleeing Castro were just as illegal as today's refugees from gang violence. And Hungarians fleeing after the 1956 uprising overstayed their visas.
Setting aside that those are legal statements, not moral ones, they are not correct. You do not know laws related to asylum.
Perhaps there's a moral distinction to be made between being sent back to the loving arms of Communist dictators and being sent back to the loving arms of Salvadorian gangs, but it's not one that I think that Jesus might have made.
Well, maybe you should elect a theocrat as president then.
   2054. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 11:53 AM (#5605908)

Why is gang violence better than Communism?

Because Donald Trump and Jeff Sessions say so. End of discussion.
You misspelled "Congress." As Clapper noted above in 2023, you don't seem to understand what the immigration laws are.
   2055. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 11:55 AM (#5605909)
The UK does allow Commonwealth and EU citizens who're residents there to vote

EU citizens only in local elections,
And, I believe, European Parliament elections, because nobody cares about those.

(Some local jurisdictions in the U.S. allow non-citizen residents to vote in local elections.)
   2056. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 13, 2018 at 11:56 AM (#5605910)
What is appropriate to ask, however, is whether he's a neurologist, given that Trump's repeatedly exhibited symptoms that are possibly correlated with neurological damage.

No, that an oversell. You don’t need to be a neurologist to test for signs of dementia. In fact there is a basic behavioral panel of questions called the MMSE that is designed to give non-neurologist clinicians a basic tool for determining if additional testing for dementia-related decide is warranted. The only meaningful question is whether this was part of the exam.


There's no indication that it was, but perhaps we'll find out for sure when the full details of the exam are released. I wouldn't be holding my breath.
   2057. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 13, 2018 at 12:03 PM (#5605912)
Again you evade the moral question. At one point Cubans who arrived via boats fleeing Castro were just as illegal as today's refugees from gang violence. And Hungarians fleeing after the 1956 uprising overstayed their visas.

Setting aside that those are legal statements, not moral ones, they are not correct. You do not know laws related to asylum.


I'll always defer to you on legal matters, but the bottom line is that Cubans who fled Castro and arrived here safely were allowed to remain here, and eventually gain citizenship. Same with the Hungarians who fled after the 1956 uprising.

Perhaps there's a moral distinction to be made between being sent back to the loving arms of Communist dictators and being sent back to the loving arms of Salvadorian gangs, but it's not one that I think that Jesus might have made.

Well, maybe you should elect a theocrat as president then.


Or a secular humanist who recognizes oppression when he sees it, and who doesn't rank oppressive regimes by the way he imagines that refugees from them might vote in American elections, as you seem to be doing with your comment in #2008.
   2058. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 13, 2018 at 12:06 PM (#5605913)
Why is gang violence better than Communism?

Because Donald Trump and Jeff Sessions say so. End of discussion.

You misspelled "Congress." As Clapper noted above in 2023, you don't seem to understand what the immigration laws are.


I look forward to your enthusiastic defense of whatever future immigration laws Congress might pass when our latest wave of nativism passes, because Congress never, ever acts out of anything but the highest of motives----just like Trump and Sessions.
   2059. BDC Posted: January 13, 2018 at 12:48 PM (#5605920)
On more light-hearted but still somewhat political/historical topics: I have been checking the Map Porn reddit every day since somebody here once linked to it. What a trip. Some amazing items in the past day or two:

Net migration rates of European and adjoining countries in 2017

Syria had high net immigration in '17, because in previous years it had had such gigantic emigration, and evidently some people started to return. Poland seems to be the largest EU country still with net emigration.

Traffic volume by hour in the United States

Looks like Atlanta-Chattanooga never lets up. Best guess why, in the comments, is "meth."

Distribution of the two common words "tea" and "cha"

I had always assumed that the words "tea" and "cha" were cognate, and they probably are, way back, but they have very specific geographical lineages as loan-words.

Political Evolution of the US Senate

For those who need more of a blue-red fix than 270toWin delivers.
   2060. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 12:54 PM (#5605921)
Re 2008- this is what I mean. There's nothing in what you're responding to suggesting that liberals want to create a path towards citizenship because they want votes. It's a bizarre fixation.
There's no other obvious reason for it. From the point of view of the immigrants, there are three main distinctions between citizenship and permanent residence:

(1) Permanent residents can't vote;
(2) Permanent residents can be deported if they commit serious crimes;
(3) Permanent residents can't sponsor siblings or parents for visas. (But can sponsor spouses or children.) (Note that the sponsorship process can take a decade or more, so the whole concern about "chain migration" is vastly overstated.)

It would be... odd if BM's argument (I know it's not just BM; I'm just using him as an archetype) were that we need to make them citizens so they can commit crimes with fewer consequences, so that leaves out #2. Number 3, while not unimportant to a permanent resident, hardly justifies the sobriquet of "second class resident." That leaves Number 1.
   2061. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 12:59 PM (#5605923)

No, that an oversell. You don’t need to be a neurologist to test for signs of dementia. In fact there is a basic behavioral panel of questions called the MMSE that is designed to give non-neurologist clinicians a basic tool for determining if additional testing for dementia-related decide is warranted. The only meaningful question is whether this was part of the exam.
Look, if anyone is familiar with dementia here, it ought to be Andy.
   2062. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2018 at 01:00 PM (#5605925)
Some will be disappointed - WH Doctor: "Trump Is In Excellent Health" ...Probably won't stop the unlicensed armchair diagnosticians who post here.

Says the poster who was giggly about the prospect of failing health for Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

A blatant mischarecterization. At best I was mock-amused at the prospect of Ginsburg moving to New Zealand, although, shockingly, it appears that the Justice may have reneged on that pledge. Beyond that, I doubt I did anything other than note the conventional wisdom that her seat and that of Justice Kennedy were the most likely to become vacant.
   2063. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 01:06 PM (#5605927)
James O'Keefe says Trump asked him to go on birther-linked mission
Actually, if you look at O'Keefe's book (no, I did not; I saw the excerpt on twitter), you'll see that O'Keefe's uncorroborated claim here -- which is, um, not worth a whole lot -- is really the opposite of birtherism. O'Keefe's story is not that Trump asked him to prove Obama was born elsewhere; O'Keefe's story is that Trump asked him to prove that Obama was falsely claiming to be a foreigner to get admission/scholarships to Columbia. IIRC, the quote from the book doesn't say that Trump expressly said that; it said that this is how O'Keefe "understood" what Trump was thinking.
   2064. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2018 at 01:09 PM (#5605928)
Are you any kind of a physician?

Somehow I think my question is a bit more germane than yours, given that I've yet to be called to the White House to examine Trump.

That's exactly the point, Andy. You didn't examine the President, and would be grossly unqualified to do so. The White House physician, who has been on the job since the Obama Administration, did, and presumably conducted all the medical tests he deemed appropriate. If he says anything different Tuesday, you have a story, otherwise, your complaints would seem to be just more efforts to politicize the President's routine medical treatment. Sad.
   2065. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 01:09 PM (#5605929)
I'll always defer to you on legal matters, but the bottom line is that Cubans who fled Castro and arrived here safely were allowed to remain here, and eventually gain citizenship. Same with the Hungarians who fled after the 1956 uprising.
That's not really the "bottom line," but sure. U.S. immigration law treats applicants for political asylum differently from other groups. That's law. You apparently don't like that law, but it is. Trump didn't invent it, Sessions didn't invent it, Republicans didn't invent it.
   2066. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 13, 2018 at 01:10 PM (#5605931)
I'll always defer to you on legal matters, but the bottom line is that Cubans who fled Castro and arrived here safely were allowed to remain here, and eventually gain citizenship. Same with the Hungarians who fled after the 1956 uprising.

That's not really the "bottom line," but sure. U.S. immigration law treats applicants for political asylum differently from other groups. That's law. You apparently don't like that law, but it is. Trump didn't invent it, Sessions didn't invent it, Republicans didn't invent it.


But Trump/Sessions/Republicans want to interpret and adjust those laws to reflect their more punitive and nativist views of immigrants, both illegal and legal. You may or may not agree with their policies, but we'll never know until you declare yourself, and give us your reasons.
   2067. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 13, 2018 at 01:18 PM (#5605932)
Are you any kind of a physician?

Somehow I think my question is a bit more germane than yours, given that I've yet to be called to the White House to examine Trump.

That's exactly the point, Andy. You didn't examine the President, and would be grossly unqualified to do so. The White House physician, who has been on the job since the Obama Administration, did, and presumably conducted all the medical tests he deemed appropriate. If he says anything different Tuesday, you have a story, otherwise, your complaints would seem to be just more efforts to politicize the President's routine medical treatment. Sad.


I'll believe your "presumably" if and when the White House physician directly addresses the question. We'll see.
   2068. Joe Bivens Recognizes the Kenyan Precedent Posted: January 13, 2018 at 01:21 PM (#5605933)
I wonder if Trump and Melania sleep in the same bed? If not and he were to have a heart attack in the middle of the night he might not get help in time. What a shame that would be!
   2069. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2018 at 01:22 PM (#5605934)
At one point Cubans who arrived via boats fleeing Castro were just as illegal as today's refugees from gang violence. And Hungarians fleeing after the 1956 uprising overstayed their visas. In both of these cases, Congress then provided them with a path to citizenship. Perhaps there's a moral distinction to be made between being sent back to the loving arms of Communist dictators and being sent back to the loving arms of Salvadorian gangs, but it's not one that I think that Jesus might have made.

As David has already noted, that's just wrong. Cuban refugees always had a claim for political asylum, as did those who fled when the Hungarian Revolution was crushed by the Soviets. Despite the current efforts to gin up vaguely plausible asylum claims on behalf of illegal entrants from Mexico & Central America, they mostly don't qualify, and large numbers don't even show up for their asylum hearing, it was just a ruse to get into the country.
   2070. Srul Itza Posted: January 13, 2018 at 01:28 PM (#5605936)
People out here are getting alerts on their phones, and even on television, about an incoming ballistic missile, saying it is NOT a drill.

Of course, no such thing is happening, but a lot of people just got very freaked out.
   2071. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 01:31 PM (#5605937)
But Trump/Sessions/Republicans want to interpret and adjust those laws to reflect their more punitive and nativist views of immigrants, both illegal and legal.
I have no idea what this means. Which law do Trump/Sessions/Republicans want to interpret? Which law do they want to adjust? What are you talking about? You couldn't be more backwards if you tried; if anything, they want to apply the laws as they currently stand. I would say "rather than adjusting them," but they have expressed a willingness to make them more favorable, such as by enacting DACA.
   2072. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2018 at 01:36 PM (#5605938)
But Trump/Sessions/Republicans want to interpret and adjust those laws to reflect their more punitive and nativist views of immigrants, both illegal and legal. You may or may not agree with their policies, but we'll never know until you declare yourself, and give us your reasons.

That's not true, either. Trump & Sessions are interpreting the immigration laws as did every other President before Obama. The Light Bringer was the outlier. Again, some folks apparently want to change the immigration laws to allow anyone who makes it across the border to stay, but don't want to take the political hit for that position, so they're looking for a back door method to reach the same result. That's not how we do things.
   2073. greenback wears sandals on his head Posted: January 13, 2018 at 01:43 PM (#5605939)
People out here are getting alerts on their phones, and even on television, about an incoming ballistic missile, saying it is NOT a drill.

Of course, no such thing is happening, but a lot of people just got very freaked out.

I hate it when NORAD commanders and Albert Belle screw up.
   2074. Srul Itza Posted: January 13, 2018 at 01:55 PM (#5605942)
Helluva a way to start the day. It emanated from the State by mistake.

Somebody probably just lost their job, but the way things work here in the People's Republic of Hawaii, that is not a sure thing.


ETA: The important thing is that it did not disrupt the Sony Open. Got to love them beaming palm trees to the Mainland at this time of year.

Hotels are near capacity, so book ahead.
   2075. Srul Itza Posted: January 13, 2018 at 02:00 PM (#5605943)
In the news from South Africa:

An apology from international retail giant H&M was not enough to quell the widespread anger over a promotional image that many have described as racist because it shows a black child wearing a sweatshirt with the words, “Coolest monkey in the jungle.”


Somebody from their marketing arm must have been a graduate of Trump University, because the stupidity inherent in this ad vies with the casual racism for bragging rights.
   2076. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2018 at 02:04 PM (#5605945)
2027. Lassus Posted: January 13, 2018 at 06:19 AM (#5605860)
Has Trump's hush money to a porn star to cover up an alleged sexual assault even made it to this page yet?

The story that the woman allegedly involved has denied? No, that doesn't seem to have made the cut, even for BBTF-OTP.
   2077. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: January 13, 2018 at 02:23 PM (#5605949)
Clapper’s more of a whore than that porn chick.
   2078. Zonk, Genius of the Stables Posted: January 13, 2018 at 02:31 PM (#5605954)
yes - I posted the Wall Street journal article alleg in that Trump fixer Michael Cohen paid porn star Stormy Daniels 130k to keep quiet about an encounter. It was the same article that noted another would-be bean spiller got paid 150k by trumpkin owned national enquirer to write a fitness column that was never published but ended up not spilling any beans.

That's Clappers President!

Tell me Clapper, do they hand out color coded calendars to you Trumpkins? Today will be a despicable day... today is a ridiculous day. Today is a stupid day. Today is a crazy day. Today is a surreal day. Can you map the color coding for us?
   2079. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 02:33 PM (#5605956)
The story that the woman allegedly involved has denied?
Well, if she were paid $130K to deny it, the fact that she denied it -- not, of course, under oath -- would hardly be surprising, would it? For $130K, I'll deny knowing my wife and kids.
   2080. Traderdave Posted: January 13, 2018 at 02:36 PM (#5605957)
That an avowedly Republican paper that has defended Trump generally, and specifically in his latest week of horrific idiocy, is reporting it on its front page does lend the porn star report a lot of creedence.


PS To the pedants: yes the WSJ does occasionally run an anti Trump (aka reasonable) opinion piece but the editorial page has steadily stuck up for him.
   2081. Zonk, Genius of the Stables Posted: January 13, 2018 at 02:38 PM (#5605959)
For 130k, I will say Clapper is the wisest, most objective, most interested in the pure truth commenter on politics living today.

   2082. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: January 13, 2018 at 02:45 PM (#5605960)
For 130k, I will say Clapper is the wisest, most objective, most interested in the pure truth commenter on politics living today.

I need at least $500k to say the same about SB.
   2083. BDC Posted: January 13, 2018 at 02:52 PM (#5605962)
It is fascinating that this Stormy Daniels story, the kind of thing that (even if denied) would have caused the entire political-media world to go ape#### in the days of Wilbur Mills, Gary Hart, or John Edwards, is now just another extremely tiny detail of the Trump presidency. Though maybe we are at long last evolving in the direction of France and Italy and other countries that don't give a flip about sexual hijinks of their leaders. That could be a minor benefit of the reign of Big Cheeto.

At the very least, this should make Ted Cruz's supposed mistresses, or the peccadilloes of Generic Democrat, a total non-issue come 2020 or '24.
   2084. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 02:56 PM (#5605963)
It is fascinating that this Stormy Daniels story, the kind of thing that (even if denied) would have caused the entire political-media world to go ape#### in the days of Wilbur Mills, Gary Hart, or John Edwards, is now just another extremely tiny detail of the Trump presidency. Though maybe we are at long last evolving in the direction of France and Italy and other countries that don't give a flip about sexual hijinks of their leaders. That could be a minor benefit of the reign of Big Cheeto.
I think you'll find that on this as on other things, Trump is sui generis.
   2085. Traderdave Posted: January 13, 2018 at 02:57 PM (#5605964)
Ted Cruz's supposed mistresses


There are women who would willingly #### Ted Cruz??
   2086. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: January 13, 2018 at 03:01 PM (#5605966)
I guess Bannon is reported as saying there were a lot more than just the already known list of accusers in the recent Wolff book: link

"Look, Kasowitz has known [Trump] for twenty-five years. Kasowitz has gotten him out of all kinds of jams," Bannon reportedly said. "Kasowitz on the campaign - what did we have, a hundred women? Kasowitz took care of all of them.

   2087. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: January 13, 2018 at 03:06 PM (#5605967)
There are women who would willingly #### Ted Cruz??

Have you ever seen Amanda Carpenter on CNN? She's allegedly one of his five mistresses.
   2088. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 13, 2018 at 03:14 PM (#5605968)
But Trump/Sessions/Republicans want to interpret and adjust those laws to reflect their more punitive and nativist views of immigrants, both illegal and legal.

I have no idea what this means. Which law do Trump/Sessions/Republicans want to interpret? Which law do they want to adjust? What are you talking about? You couldn't be more backwards if you tried;


You only have to pick up the paper on any given day to see examples of how the immigration laws are being interpreted in the most cruel and punitive ways. Your only response to this seems to be "Tough, change the laws if you don't like them".

if anything, they want to apply the laws as they currently stand. I would say "rather than adjusting them," but they have expressed a willingness to make them more favorable, such as by enacting DACA.

Just who is "they"? Is it Trump, who changes his mind about DACA every 15 minutes? Is it the Republican Senators who were at that meeting with him? Or is the ultra-hard line House Republicans?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But Trump/Sessions/Republicans want to interpret and adjust those laws to reflect their more punitive and nativist views of immigrants, both illegal and legal. You may or may not agree with their policies, but we'll never know until you declare yourself, and give us your reasons.

That's not true, either. Trump & Sessions are interpreting the immigration laws as did every other President before Obama. The Light Bringer was the outlier. Again, some folks apparently want to change the immigration laws to allow anyone who makes it across the border to stay,


Of course that's a complete lie, based on your usual mindreading abilities. Read the bipartisan 2013 Senate bill that passed overwhelmingly, co-sponsored by JE's first choice presidential candidate. The pendulum swung the nativists' way in 2014, and the government is controlled by them on both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue, but at some point public opinion is going to get its way. You'd better enjoy your fleeting Trump / Sessions moment while you have it, because it's not going to last forever.



   2089. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2018 at 03:14 PM (#5605969)
Helluva a way to start the day. It emanated from the State by mistake. Somebody probably just lost their job, but the way things work here in the People's Republic of Hawaii, that is not a sure thing.

Geez, people were putting their kids in storm drains! Supposedly, someone in the Hawaiian State Government "pushed the wrong button". Seems like if your job is to push the button, you should know which button.
   2090. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 03:19 PM (#5605970)
We’re just lucky that Hawaii didn't mistakenly retaliate with its nuclear arsenal.
   2091. Greg K Posted: January 13, 2018 at 03:24 PM (#5605971)
I'm tempted to go check the facebook profile of my conspiracy theory friend to see what the going explanation for this Hawaii business is.
   2092. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 13, 2018 at 03:29 PM (#5605974)
At this point in 2010, polling on the House of Representatives showed that voters preferred a generic Republican over a generic Democrat by 6%. We know what happened that November.

Today, Generic Democrat is ahead by 13%.

But GD will never get back all that wasted, wasted money thrown away on 2017's special elections.
   2093. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 13, 2018 at 03:30 PM (#5605975)
Here's all you need to know about nuclear attacks: Duck and cover
   2094. Srul Itza Posted: January 13, 2018 at 03:31 PM (#5605976)
For $130K, I'll deny knowing my wife and kids.


I don't believe you.

I don't think it would take nearly $130K
   2095. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2018 at 03:33 PM (#5605977)
John Tunney, a one-term Senator from California whose campaign was the model for the Robert Redford film "The Candidate", has died at 83. Son of the noted boxer, Gene Tunney.
   2096. Srul Itza Posted: January 13, 2018 at 03:36 PM (#5605979)
I'm tempted to go check the facebook profile of my conspiracy theory friend to see what the going explanation for this Hawaii business is.


Those of out here know that, given the standard level of government incompetence, no conspiracies are necessary.

The longer I have actual dealings with the local government, the better anarchy looks to me.
   2097. Srul Itza Posted: January 13, 2018 at 03:39 PM (#5605980)
Seems like if your job is to push the button, you should know which button.


25% per cent chance they pushed the wrong button

25% chance the buttons were mislabeled

25% chance the wiring for the buttons was screwed up by the electrical contractor.

25% chance the diagram for the wiring for the buttons was screwed up by the electrical designer.

   2098. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 03:45 PM (#5605981)

John Tunney, a one-term Senator from California whose campaign was the model for the Robert Redford film "The Candidate", has died at 83. Son of the noted boxer, Gene Tunney.
Yep; he briefly appeared on OTP last summer.
   2099. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 13, 2018 at 03:46 PM (#5605982)
What's the point of having a big, powerful button that works if you don't push it once in a while?
   2100. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 13, 2018 at 03:47 PM (#5605984)
For $130K, I'll deny knowing my wife and kids.

I don't believe you.

I don't think it would take nearly $130K


Hell, for as little as $1000 I'd vote for Trump in 2020, right here in my local Maryland precinct. And for $5000 I'd write in Jill Stein.
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