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Monday, January 08, 2018

OTP 8 January 2018: Lawsuits could change the rules in North Carolina politics, balance of power in Raleigh

Jake Quinn says his main job when he umpires baseball games as a volunteer for North Asheville Little League is to ensure each team is treated fairly.

“Before the first pitch is thrown, the score is 0-0 and the team that scores the most runs during the game wins the game,” he said.

But, he says, “That’s not the way elections work. With gerrymandering, one team starts out in the lead. That’s fundamentally unfair.”

 

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 08, 2018 at 07:54 AM | 2393 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: little league, off topic, politics, umpire

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   2101. Zonk wouldn't or would he? Posted: January 13, 2018 at 03:50 PM (#5605986)
Overheard from John Kelly...

"....yes Mr President the ratings for Hawaiis false alarm were huge.... no, I don't think this means we should trigger a nuclear exchange.... a state sir, yes that's right..... right Mr President, one of those things surrounded by water... I would have to check sir, but no I believe it was one of those states you could have won, but didn't want to.... um, I would say your approval there is, ummmm, holding steady there... yes sir, the bigger red button is being installed today.... yes, it makes that noise you wanted....yes, Mr President, as you predicted, the fake media is ignoring how you upgraded our defensive capabilities with the bigger button.... thank you, Mr President. No sir, I'm on the phone so I didn't see you kick that golf ball out of the rough.... good luck on the back nine.
   2102. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 13, 2018 at 03:51 PM (#5605987)
It would be... odd if BM's argument (I know it's not just BM; I'm just using him as an archetype) were that we need to make them citizens so they can commit crimes with fewer consequences, so that leaves out #2. Number 3, while not unimportant to a permanent resident, hardly justifies the sobriquet of "second class resident." That leaves Number 1.


Congrats you have ignored, misrepresented, or both my argument.

Once more, for the slow, though I suspect you are not getting it because you don't want to get it. I'll use small words though and simple sentences so there is no doubt if your ignorance is purposeful or not.

People react differently in different circumstances. Like how zonk "For 130k, I will say Clapper is the wisest, most objective, most interested in the pure truth commenter on politics living today."

The circumstance in question here is citizenship. People who are citizens will behave differently than those same people would behave if they were not allowed to be citizens. The theory is that as citizens those people will act differently than they would if they were not citizens.

This is, as I mentioned before, similar to the idea that homeowners act differently than renters. Again, the same person behaves differently in different situations, acts differently depending on the role - citizen or not citizen - they happen to be playing. We see this change in behavior, the fact that different roles cause people to behave differently, all the time across all of humanity. Another example is people act differently when they are at work versus at home versus on vacation.

So to summarize the idea is citizens (or people on the path to citizenship) will act differently (better) than those same people would act if they were not allowed to become citizens.

Now, feel free to think the theory is wrong. Maybe you think people don't behave differently in different circumstances. Maybe you think the difference in behavior is not significant or even that the difference means non-citizens would behave better than those who are citizens or on a path to citizenship.

But please stop with the sort of nonsense I quoted above and pretending it is my argument.
   2103. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2018 at 04:06 PM (#5605989)
I'm tempted to go check the facebook profile of my conspiracy theory friend to see what the going explanation for this Hawaii business is.

Based on what has appeared in more mainstream outlets, the Minor Conspiracy Theory seems to be that it was a "hack" that the government is covering up by claiming human error. The Major Conspiracy Theory is that there was a missile but it was shot down, and now being covered up. Not quite sure about the "why" behind those cover-ups, but that's probably being filled in somewhere. And I'm not suggesting that is an exhaustive list of the currently available conspiracy theories.
   2104. Hysterical & Useless Posted: January 13, 2018 at 04:09 PM (#5605990)
For $130K, I'll deny knowing my wife and kids.


Jeez, David, I'll deny knowing them for nothing.

Of course, if you ever introduce me to them, then it's gonna cost ya.

ETA: Srul's was better.
   2105. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: January 13, 2018 at 04:11 PM (#5605991)
Hell, for as little as $1000 I'd vote for Trump in 2020, right here in my local Maryland precinct. And for $5000 I'd write in Jill Stein.
What would it take to get you to vote for chelsea manning?

Edit- misread, guess the scumbag traitor did file as a D. Will be challenging Cardin in the primary.
   2106. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2018 at 04:16 PM (#5605992)
Not everyone in Hawaii responded by stuffing kids into the sewer:
One resident uploaded a video to Twitter saying, "I love you all, but I'm playing golf... the last thing I'm going to do." He added, "If you're watching this video, that means I didn't make it because of the missile that's coming towards Hawaii."

It was a little early in the day, but I assume some guy somewhere must have used the alert as a pickup line.
   2107. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: January 13, 2018 at 04:22 PM (#5605994)
It was a little early in the day, but I assume some guy somewhere must have used the alert as a pickup line.
Worked for Chevy Chase...
   2108. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: January 13, 2018 at 04:25 PM (#5605995)
The Major Conspiracy Theory is that there was a missile but it was shot down, and now being covered up. Not quite sure about the "why" behind those cover-ups, but that's probably being filled in somewhere.
Because it was OUR MISSILE, duh.
   2109. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2018 at 04:28 PM (#5605996)
What would it take to get you to vote for chelsea manning? Hilarious that even though the scumbag traitor filed to run as a Republican, Fox news still filed the story under "Democrats".

It's not just Fox News, and it doesn't appear that they are the one mistaken here. The Washington Post is also reporting that Chelsea Manning Is Challenging Incumbent Senator Ben Cardin In The Democratic Primary:
Manning’s statement of candidacy was filed with the Federal Elections Commission on Thursday. She is running as a Democrat and refers to Maryland as her “home state” on her web site. The Democratic primary is scheduled for the end of June.

EDIT I don't believe the Internet Beverage Regulations require any kind of carbonated drink for subsequent corrections to your own post.

   2110. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: January 13, 2018 at 04:28 PM (#5605997)
The whole Chelsea Manning redemption story is an odd one. She jeopardized American security. Getting a sex change doesn’t make that any less bad.
   2111. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: January 13, 2018 at 04:31 PM (#5605999)
Yeah, I misread wapo's "challenging the Democrat" as "running as an R", then linked to the Fox article, and saw it filed under d's and got overzealous. Edited the original post to reflect the mea culpa.
   2112. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 13, 2018 at 04:36 PM (#5606003)
I look at recent photographs of Chelsea Manning, and depending on the angle and lighting I can't help but wonder: Democrat or Republican?
   2113. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 04:43 PM (#5606005)

You only have to pick up the paper on any given day to see examples of how the immigration laws are being interpreted in the most cruel and punitive ways. Your only response to this seems to be "Tough, change the laws if you don't like them".
No. There aren't different ways to interpret "the laws," about which you're obviously unaware of anything specific. Nobody is interpreting any laws differently. They're simply enforcing the laws.

Just who is "they"? Is it Trump, who changes his mind about DACA every 15 minutes? Is it the Republican Senators who were at that meeting with him? Or is the ultra-hard line House Republicans?
Yes.

   2114. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 04:45 PM (#5606006)
So to summarize the idea is citizens (or people on the path to citizenship) will act differently (better) than those same people would act if they were not allowed to become citizens.
I would say that you pulled this out of your ass, but that would be unfair to your ass.
   2115. Ray (CTL) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 04:45 PM (#5606007)
Is that White House physician a neurologist?

Seriously, we have a man who's shown repeated symptoms of at least the possibility of neurological damage.


Nobody sane believes you.
   2116. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: January 13, 2018 at 04:46 PM (#5606008)
The whole Chelsea Manning redemption story is an odd one. She jeopardized American security. Getting a sex change doesn’t make that any less bad.
Yeah, don't see how she's been "redeemed" in any way. She should have spent the rest of her life in prison, or at least the rest of her sentence.
   2117. Srul Itza Posted: January 13, 2018 at 04:46 PM (#5606009)
I would say that you pulled this out of your ass, but that would be unfair to your ass.


And as a matter of professional courtesy, David would never want to be unfair to another ass.
   2118. Ray (CTL) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 04:50 PM (#5606012)
"Many people have called to my attention the continuing danger to our nation from the possibility of a U.S. president becoming disabled, particularly by a neurologic illness. The great weakness of the Twenty-Fifth Amendment is its provision for determining disability in the event that the president is unable or unwilling to certify to impairment or disability."

That was from Jimmy Carter in 1994. He proposed a non-partisan group of experts to evaluate the President's mental fitness yearly. Doesn't seem like a bad idea. Now I have no idea if Trump is in any sort of mental distress, but I think we've seen at least some reason to be a little concerned (particularly his changing speech patterns).


In the abstract it would be a good idea for all presidents over 65 or 70 to undergo yearly physical and neurological exams. In practice the "non-partisan" process would be utterly abused by partisans.
   2119. Srul Itza Posted: January 13, 2018 at 04:51 PM (#5606013)
Getting a sex change doesn’t make that any less bad.


I don't know. When I first heard about his treasonous acts, I thought Manning should have his balls cut off.

So it all worked out.

   2120. Ray (CTL) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 04:54 PM (#5606014)
The distinction between legal and illegal immigration is lost of Andy.


It's not "lost" on him so much as he doesn't really care about it; in fact, to the extent he seems to care, it's _illegals_ who he elevates to hero status, even over legal immigrants -- and certainly over US citizens.

It's of a piece with elevating freeloaders over taxpayers.
   2121. Ray (CTL) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 05:00 PM (#5606015)
What is appropriate to ask, however, is whether he's a neurologist, given that Trump's repeatedly exhibited symptoms that are possibly correlated with neurological damage.

And what's also appropriate to ask is why Trump apparently won't be given a neurological examination. Given his frequent signs of erratic behavior that only seem to be getting worse, it's hard not to infer that the answer is that he's afraid of what such an examination might reveal.


In America we don't force people to undergo "neurological examinations."
   2122. Zonk wouldn't or would he? Posted: January 13, 2018 at 05:04 PM (#5606017)
Of course Chelsea Mannning is running to primary a Democrat - if it were to primary a Republican, the story headline would added "; incumbent down 20 points"....

   2123. Ray (CTL) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 05:08 PM (#5606018)
(3) Permanent residents can't sponsor siblings or parents for visas. (But can sponsor spouses or children.) (Note that the sponsorship process can take a decade or more, so the whole concern about "chain migration" is vastly overstated.)


No idea why that would make the concern of chain migration -- which I, as usual, don't particularly care about -- vastly overstated. The opponents of it are correct: it results in a mushrooming of people here in the country over time.
   2124. Ray (CTL) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 05:11 PM (#5606019)
No, that an oversell. You don’t need to be a neurologist to test for signs of dementia. In fact there is a basic behavioral panel of questions called the MMSE that is designed to give non-neurologist clinicians a basic tool for determining if additional testing for dementia-related decide is warranted. The only meaningful question is whether this was part of the exam.

Look, if anyone is familiar with dementia here, it ought to be Andy.


Yes, but he's forgotten what he knows about the topic.
   2125. PreservedFish Posted: January 13, 2018 at 05:15 PM (#5606021)
Trump's old. Old people aren't as sharp as they used to be. Trump's not as sharp as he used to be.

He's also been hugely rewarded for speaking off the cuff, for ignoring nuance, being poorly informed, etc. So why change? Makes sense to embrace it.

But I doubt that he's insane or demented in a diagnosable way.
   2126. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 13, 2018 at 05:17 PM (#5606023)
If any candidate can reach across the aisle, it's Chelsea Manning.
   2127. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: January 13, 2018 at 05:17 PM (#5606024)
In America we don't force people to undergo "neurological examinations."


Sadly, I'm pretty sure most states do. I'd have thought that even a patent attorney would be familiar with TDOs and ECOs.
   2128. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2018 at 05:27 PM (#5606027)
People posting on BBTF-OTP should be required to take neurological examinations.
   2129. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 05:29 PM (#5606031)
No idea why that would make the concern of chain migration -- which I, as usual, don't particularly care about -- vastly overstated. The opponents of it are correct: it results in a mushrooming of people here in the country over time.
No, the opponents of it are not correct. The word "mushrooming" -- you can look it up -- refers to rapid growth. This is very slow growth. "If you let so-and-so come to this country, in twenty years he could bring another person" is not what the opponents are concerned about.
   2130. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 05:31 PM (#5606032)

People posting on BBTF-OTP should be required to take neurological examinations.
Brian repeatedly had his head examined; does that count?
   2131. tshipman Posted: January 13, 2018 at 05:32 PM (#5606033)
In America we don't force people to undergo "neurological examinations."


Of course we do?

Surgeons, pilots, professional athletes, etc.
   2132. DavidFoss Posted: January 13, 2018 at 05:40 PM (#5606037)
But I doubt that he's insane or demented in a diagnosable way.


Yeah, I think the main issue is that we haven't had a President that is this much of an a--hole in public since one's behavior in public mattered. (The advent of audio or video?) I mean, one can argue that people like Lyndon Johnson or Richard Nixon may have been harsh behind closed doors but they knew to behave better in public.

This is sort of what Trump voters wanted. A no-nonsense, no-filter guy who wasn't politically correct. We can have a partisan debate about how appropriate or effective it has been, but it doesn't mean that he's mentally ill.
   2133. Ray (CTL) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 05:40 PM (#5606038)
No, the opponents of it are not correct. The word "mushrooming" -- you can look it up -- refers to rapid growth. This is very slow growth. "If you let so-and-so come to this country, in twenty years he could bring another person" is not what the opponents are concerned about.


"Mushrooming," "exponential growth curve," whatever. And it's not one person they're worried about but a lot of one persons bringing people.
   2134. BDC Posted: January 13, 2018 at 05:46 PM (#5606041)
I will make a folk diagnosis that Trump is a ####### #######.
   2135. Ray (CTL) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 05:50 PM (#5606042)
I will make a folk diagnosis that Trump is a ####### #######.


If you really think Trump's sh!tholes comment is bad for the world, do you (a) leak it to a reporter, and do you as the reporter's newspaper (b) publish the comment?
   2136. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2018 at 05:53 PM (#5606043)
Missed some earlier economic news - New Alabama Plant Will Build Toyota Corollas, Mazda SUVs:
Japanese automakers Toyota and Mazda on Wednesday announced plans to build a mammoth $1.6 billion joint-venture plant in Alabama that will eventually employ about 4000 people. Several states had competed for the coveted project, which will be able to turn out 300,000 vehicles per year and produce the Toyota Corolla compact car for North America and a new small SUV from Mazda. Production is expected to begin by 2021.

Seems like good news.
   2137. Sleepy's not going to blame himself Posted: January 13, 2018 at 05:54 PM (#5606044)
In America we don't force people to undergo "neurological examinations."


Of course we do?

Surgeons, pilots, professional athletes, etc.
And of course everyone in the military who is in any way associated with nuclear weapons is regularly evaluated for mental illness/personnel reliability. Not sure why the civilian leadership would not be subject to same.
   2138. Count Posted: January 13, 2018 at 06:07 PM (#5606047)
As David has already noted, that's just wrong. Cuban refugees always had a claim for political asylum, as did those who fled when the Hungarian Revolution was crushed by the Soviets. Despite the current efforts to gin up vaguely plausible asylum claims on behalf of illegal entrants from Mexico & Central America, they mostly don't qualify, and large numbers don't even show up for their asylum hearing, it was just a ruse to get into the country.


It's more complicated than YC or DN are presenting. Fleeing gang violence has been recognized as a ground for asylum (by at least some circuits; i'm not sure if this is universal).
   2139. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 06:16 PM (#5606051)

If you really think Trump's sh!tholes comment is bad for the world, do you (a) leak it to a reporter, and do you as the reporter's newspaper (b) publish the comment?
Yes. You're really not grasping the job of reporters.
   2140. Count Posted: January 13, 2018 at 06:21 PM (#5606052)
Re 2008- this is what I mean. There's nothing in what you're responding to suggesting that liberals want to create a path towards citizenship because they want votes. It's a bizarre fixation.
There's no other obvious reason for it. From the point of view of the immigrants, there are three main distinctions between citizenship and permanent residence:

(1) Permanent residents can't vote;
(2) Permanent residents can be deported if they commit serious crimes;
(3) Permanent residents can't sponsor siblings or parents for visas. (But can sponsor spouses or children.) (Note that the sponsorship process can take a decade or more, so the whole concern about "chain migration" is vastly overstated.)

It would be... odd if BM's argument (I know it's not just BM; I'm just using him as an archetype) were that we need to make them citizens so they can commit crimes with fewer consequences, so that leaves out #2. Number 3, while not unimportant to a permanent resident, hardly justifies the sobriquet of "second class resident." That leaves Number 1.


This is incredibly flimsy reasoning. You don't agree with the other arguments therefore the only reason liberals would want illegal immigrants to be able to become citizens is so the immigrants could vote, and moreover liberals only want people to be able to vote because they expect they will vote with their preferences.
   2141. Zonk wouldn't or would he? Posted: January 13, 2018 at 06:22 PM (#5606053)
Ray grasps the job of reporters, it's why people accuse him of being an authoritarian that puzzles him.
   2142. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: January 13, 2018 at 06:25 PM (#5606054)
And strangely, Omega Dancing Monkey nitwit, some people still try to claim Trump's behavior isn't a problem. That's why it needed to be reported. Dummy.
   2143. Count Posted: January 13, 2018 at 06:27 PM (#5606055)
I think people who have been here since they were children should be able to become citizens (subject to other conditions, like lack of a criminal record). It's not because I want their votes.
   2144. Ray (CTL) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 06:31 PM (#5606057)
Yes. You're really not grasping the job of reporters.


To make the world a worse place?
   2145. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: January 13, 2018 at 06:34 PM (#5606058)
Come on, Ray, do it! RDP: DENSE, DUMB AND ####### OBTUSE is a perfect screen name for you.
   2146. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 06:38 PM (#5606060)
It's more complicated than YC or DN are presenting. Fleeing gang violence has been recognized as a ground for asylum (by at least some circuits; i'm not sure if this is universal).
First, any such claim is evaluated on a case by case basis. Second, fear of gang violence by itself is never enough. Ordinary crime/violence, no matter how bad, is not grounds for asylum. The applicant has to be personally targeted by gangs, and the motivation has to be something other than ordinary criminal motivation (i.e., a desire for money, etc.) It's a fear of persecution, not a fear of being the victim of crime, that's required. And the persecution must be because of membership in some group. Although the traditional groups are racial/religious/ethnic, that's not required; a "particular social group" can be enough. But it generally must be specific and particularized, not, "people afraid of gangs" or "people who reject gangs" or the like.

Moreover, when the harm isn't being caused by the government, the asylum seeker needs to show that his government is unwilling or completely unable to deal with the gangs -- again, not in the ordinary sense of ineffective policing of street crime, but more in the sense that a gang has essentially supplanted the government in the area. An example of where nongovernmental persecution often comes into play is honor killings in the Middle East -- targets of honor killings generally cannot appeal to the government for help, because the government permits these killings to happen.
   2147. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 06:42 PM (#5606061)

Yes. You're really not grasping the job of reporters.

To make the world a worse place?
Nope. See what I mean?
   2148. Count Posted: January 13, 2018 at 06:58 PM (#5606065)
2146- that's a good explanation and washes out as being more complicated than initially presented!
   2149. Ishmael Posted: January 13, 2018 at 07:01 PM (#5606066)
To make the world a worse place?

You guys might enjoy having a go at The Oxford Utilitarianism Scale on the University of Oxford Practical Ethics blog. Find out how utilitarian you are on a scale of 7-63!

I got a 38.
   2150. Omineca Greg Posted: January 13, 2018 at 07:06 PM (#5606069)
I got a 38
.
I got 28.
   2151. BDC Posted: January 13, 2018 at 07:09 PM (#5606071)
I got 28

I got 16.

But I kept trying to make stories out of the questions and ask "well, what if this or that were involved?" :)
   2152. McCoy Posted: January 13, 2018 at 07:23 PM (#5606074)
Got a 21
   2153. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 13, 2018 at 07:24 PM (#5606076)
The group of us watching football in aggregate got a 32.
   2154. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 07:27 PM (#5606079)

I got 16 too, BDC.
   2155. Hysterical & Useless Posted: January 13, 2018 at 07:30 PM (#5606082)
A no-nonsense, no-filter guy


I get the "no-filter" part, but it seems like there's been a nawful lot of nonsense this past year...
   2156. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: January 13, 2018 at 07:42 PM (#5606091)
42. You people (So far) are bastards.



Watch some people score 0.
   2157. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: January 13, 2018 at 07:43 PM (#5606094)
16 huh DMN? You must get 15 for logging on.
   2158. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 07:46 PM (#5606096)

I'm a bit surprised at BM's score -- I’d have assumed he would get much higher. The rest of the group must have really pulled him down.
   2159. Zonk wouldn't or would he? Posted: January 13, 2018 at 07:53 PM (#5606100)
23
   2160. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 13, 2018 at 08:11 PM (#5606107)
Ray, #2135:
If you really think Trump's sh!tholes comment is bad for the world, do you (a) leak it to a reporter, and do you as the reporter's newspaper (b) publish the comment?


At least this phony wagon-circling concern explains why the "cockholster" joke, shall we say, stuck in your craw.

Or should I clean up the unacceptably salty language (the real villain hurting America), by replacing it with the classier phrase "lickspittle tool"?
   2161. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: January 13, 2018 at 08:14 PM (#5606108)
46. I win?
   2162. Lassus Posted: January 13, 2018 at 08:15 PM (#5606109)
37, without really thinking that hard about any of them.
   2163. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: January 13, 2018 at 08:22 PM (#5606112)
Thinking too hard about them just makes your head hurt. How exactly could chopping off my leg enable someone else to live? How could torturing an innocent save other innocents?
   2164. BDC Posted: January 13, 2018 at 08:27 PM (#5606114)
The only one I said "Agree" to was the money question. It's only money. The leg or the kidney, no way.
   2165. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: January 13, 2018 at 08:33 PM (#5606116)
I agreed with the leg and kidney statements, as well as the money one, but I'm not about to surrender any body parts or empty my bank account. I'll take a full set of limbs and financial freedom over a healthy soul.
   2166. Srul Itza Posted: January 13, 2018 at 08:36 PM (#5606119)
31
   2167. Shredder Posted: January 13, 2018 at 08:37 PM (#5606122)
I got 31. Way too many "I reject the premise" type of questions, but I guess that's kind of the point. But I'm also like BDC. I start doing too much "What if I cut off my leg, but the guy I'm saving is a serial killer?"
   2168. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: January 13, 2018 at 08:42 PM (#5606124)
23
   2169. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: January 13, 2018 at 08:51 PM (#5606127)
I went with "if I cut my leg off who will save me?"

I'd give up a kidney though.
   2170. Hysterical & Useless Posted: January 13, 2018 at 09:01 PM (#5606129)
Hoo boy. I got 12. But I'm sorry, I can't imagine chopping off my leg, and I'm not gonna be blackmailed into feeling guilty about not doing it.*

As Shredder said, basically I just reject the premises of most of the questions. How many times in the history of the world would torturing an innocent person have saved hundreds of lives? Unless you're invoking magic ("If this helpless child feels enough pain, the bomb won't explode!"), presumably the mechanism would be that the person responsible for the bomb would give it up rather than permit the innocent to be tortured. Which seems...unlikely. And wouldn't they be morally better than me then?

*I mean, I'd love it if somebody would think saving me was so important that they'd chop off their own leg to do it, but that "morally required" bit just sticks in my craw.

   2171. Hysterical & Useless Posted: January 13, 2018 at 09:08 PM (#5606130)
Even the money one, #9, I had to disagree with. I mean, we give away a lot of money every year. But I sure as #### don't think people who don't give are "morally wrong."

My wife got 30. She said to me, "So the quiz just pissed you off." Yup.

ETA: But thanks for linking, Ishmael. Not mad at you, just the quiz!
   2172. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: January 13, 2018 at 09:25 PM (#5606132)
39. I'll give up a lot to help people, but not body parts.
   2173. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: January 13, 2018 at 10:19 PM (#5606142)
basically I just reject the premises of most of the questions


But "I reject the premise of the question" was not a choice, so I didn't bother to finsh the quiz.
   2174. tshipman Posted: January 13, 2018 at 10:27 PM (#5606144)
I got 33.

I felt like I disagreed mostly on the "moral obligation" to do something bad to other people if it helps others. I feel like information is never perfect, so you should avoid doing harm as a first principle.

However, I do feel a moral obligation to give money to help others, or to give up a leg to save a life. I guess I differ in terms of what I feel individually obligated to do, and then what I expect other people to do.
   2175. Random Transaction Generator Posted: January 13, 2018 at 10:32 PM (#5606146)
22 here. I'm still not sure what that says about me.
   2176. Srul Itza Posted: January 13, 2018 at 10:36 PM (#5606150)
Regarding the phony missile alert: I am seeing a lot of reports stressing that people were panicking, worried, etc.

Don't believe everything you read.

A lot of people, like me, assumed it was BS from the beginning, due to the lack of sirens (Honolulu has long had a system of sirens to warn of tsunamis, which get tested once a month. They recently added "nuclear missile warning sirens as well), and the lack of any mention on the internet or elsewhere to support the claims. I will bet we were in the majority.
   2177. SteveF Posted: January 13, 2018 at 11:04 PM (#5606153)
wrong thread
   2178. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2018 at 11:06 PM (#5606155)
I will bet we were in the majority.

I suspect only a minority panicked over Orson Welles' "War of the Worlds", too. Perhaps we should ask Andy, he was likely listening that night.
   2179. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 13, 2018 at 11:14 PM (#5606158)
I suspect only a minority panicked over Orson Welles' "War of the Worlds", too. Perhaps we should ask Andy, he was likely listening that night.
There's virtually no evidence of any panic from Welles' broadcast.
   2180. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: January 13, 2018 at 11:24 PM (#5606160)
Which # is larger: the people panicked about "War of the Worlds" or Muslims in NJ dancing on rooftops on 9/11/01?
   2181. EddieA Posted: January 13, 2018 at 11:40 PM (#5606163)
<2176> Did your phone make an obnoxious alert sound? My phone's alerts were downright scary. I got 3, all between 1 and 3 am, before I turned them off. They were tornado warning, flash flood (that can't affect me because of terrain) and an amber alert that was the last straw because what the hell am I gonna do about the 4 year old last seen in a silver Toyota Tundra 50 miles from where I live at 3 am?

If you have nuclear missile sirens do you have drills?

Militarily, would Hawaii still be a serious strategic first strike objective? It's not like the Pacific fleet and air force would be destroyed if Hawaii were hit. I guess Kim would be doing it for show, but since he would reap the whirlwind even just actually firing a ballistic missile in anger at any nation or people (hitting anything or not), the closer and bigger targets make more sense if he wants to go down in history as an all-time evildoer.
   2182. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 13, 2018 at 11:50 PM (#5606165)
I got 25. But it's a stupid test, since it only deals with extreme situations and binary choices, and the chances are that if you were presented with those 10 situations in real life your score would come out differently.

Someone might want to try these questions instead. Not all of them are strictly measurements of how utilitarian you are, but the right thing would often require a certain amount of discomfort/reprisal.

1. Would you call out your ATM password to a stranger amidst a gathering crowd if you could see that it might be necessary to save his life, even if you knew that you couldn't immediately change it after his life was saved? (I think people might know where I got this one from.)

2. Would you pick up a raggedy but formidable looking homeless person who was hitchhiking in a snowstorm?

3. Would you have publicly reprimanded president Trump---by calling his most recent racist tirade "racist", not "unfortunate" or "regrettable"---if you were in his cabinet, and were asked by a reporter to comment on it?

4. What would you do in that same situation if you were Paul Ryan?

5. Would you report your father to the police if you witnessed him hit a blind pedestrian in a crosswalk, and tried to blame the pedestrian?

6. Would you still report him if you knew he was leaving you his sizable family fortune, that he didn't like to be called out for anything, and he was getting on in years?

7. Would you send an illegal immigrant domestic violence victim back to Mexico, even if you were told that she would be in mortal danger upon her return?

8. When the law deeply conflicts with your personal standard of morality, do you obey it anyway?

9. Would you ever cheat on a test if it was a final exam you needed to pass in order to graduate from college, and you knew you'd never be caught?

10. If you owned a restaurant in a small town in Alabama in the interim period between state-mandated segregation and federal government-mandated integration, would you have served a group of black people, knowing that many of your white customers would subsequently boycott you and likely put you out of business?

No scoring other than adding up the yeses and the nos.
   2183. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 13, 2018 at 11:56 PM (#5606167)
I suspect only a minority panicked over Orson Welles' "War of the Worlds", too. Perhaps we should ask Andy, he was likely listening that night.

No, but I recorded the PBS documentary and plan to see it more than once. Please don't upbraid me, Chastiser!
   2184. Srul Itza At Home Posted: January 14, 2018 at 12:17 AM (#5606169)
<2176> Did your phone make an obnoxious alert sound?



Mine didn't, but my wife's phone did.

If you have nuclear missile sirens do you have drills?


They test the sirens, but we do not have drills that I know of.

Militarily, would Hawaii still be a serious strategic first strike objective?


I would guess that the only reason he would be is if his missiles cannot make it to the Mainland
   2185. Ray (CTL) Posted: January 14, 2018 at 12:24 AM (#5606170)
20.

Some of the questions are unanswerable without more information.

For question 1 I want to know who I'd be cutting off my leg to save. If for a bad person or a random person I don't know, I wouldn't. For an immediate family member I would in a second. For people I know who are outside of that circle it would depend.

Certainly there's no one on this board I'd cut my leg off to save.

I will not torture an innocent person, no matter how many lives it would save.

OTOH I would accept the deaths of innocent people as collateral damage if more innocent people could be saved. For this question I specifically thought of the US military shooting down the PA flight during 9/11 before it could head to a target within a city for example. I'd shoot down the plane.

I'm not giving a kidney to anyone I don't know.

Caring about all people on the planet equal (as opposed to giving those close to us more care) is lunacy and is frankly depraved.
   2186. Ray (CTL) Posted: January 14, 2018 at 12:26 AM (#5606171)
42. You people (So far) are bastards.

Watch some people score 0.


Lowest possible score is a 7. Did you read the exercise?
   2187. Ray (CTL) Posted: January 14, 2018 at 12:35 AM (#5606174)
1. Would you call out your ATM password to a stranger amidst a gathering crowd if you could see that it might be necessary to save his life, even if you knew that you couldn't immediately change it after his life was saved? (I think people might know where I got this one from.)


Sure, whatever.

2. Would you pick up a raggedy but formidable looking homeless person who was hitchhiking in a snowstorm?


No.

7. Would you send an illegal immigrant domestic violence victim back to Mexico, even if you were told that she would be in mortal danger upon her return?


No.

8. When the law deeply conflicts with your personal standard of morality, do you obey it anyway?


Depends what my chances of getting caught are and what the consequences are.

9. Would you ever cheat on a test if it was a final exam you needed to pass in order to graduate from college, and you knew you'd never be caught?


No.

10. If you owned a restaurant in a small town in Alabama in the interim period between state-mandated segregation and federal government-mandated integration, would you have served a group of black people, knowing that many of your white customers would subsequently boycott you and likely put you out of business?


Yes.
   2188. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: January 14, 2018 at 12:49 AM (#5606175)
1. Would you call out your ATM password to a stranger amidst a gathering crowd if you could see that it might be necessary to save his life, even if you knew that you couldn't immediately change it after his life was saved? (I think people might know where I got this one from.)

No.

2. Would you pick up a raggedy but formidable looking homeless person who was hitchhiking in a snowstorm?

No.

3. Would you have publicly reprimanded president Trump---by calling his most recent racist tirade "racist", not "unfortunate" or "regrettable"---if you were in his cabinet, and were asked by a reporter to comment on it?

Yes.

4. What would you do in that same situation if you were Paul Ryan?

Yes.

5. Would you report your father to the police if you witnessed him hit a blind pedestrian in a crosswalk, and tried to blame the pedestrian?

No.

6. Would you still report him if you knew he was leaving you his sizable family fortune, that he didn't like to be called out for anything, and he was getting on in years?

No.

7. Would you send an illegal immigrant domestic violence victim back to Mexico, even if you were told that she would be in mortal danger upon her return?

No.

8. When the law deeply conflicts with your personal standard of morality, do you obey it anyway?

No.

9. Would you ever cheat on a test if it was a final exam you needed to pass in order to graduate from college, and you knew you'd never be caught?

Yes.

10. If you owned a restaurant in a small town in Alabama in the interim period between state-mandated segregation and federal government-mandated integration, would you have served a group of black people, knowing that many of your white customers would subsequently boycott you and likely put you out of business?

No.
   2189. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 14, 2018 at 12:54 AM (#5606176)
Certainly there's no one on this board I'd cut my leg off to save.

How about a toe? Maybe a pinky toe?
   2190. Ray (CTL) Posted: January 14, 2018 at 12:55 AM (#5606177)
Still no.
   2191. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: January 14, 2018 at 12:58 AM (#5606178)
I would not sacrifice any appendage for any one in OTP either.
   2192. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 14, 2018 at 02:31 AM (#5606184)
I would not sacrifice any appendage for any one in OTP either.
Like any good liberal, I would cut off many of other people's legs to save OTPers.
   2193. Greg K Posted: January 14, 2018 at 07:26 AM (#5606187)
But would you stop posting on OTP if it meant saving your pinky toe?

Tough call.
   2194. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 14, 2018 at 08:16 AM (#5606188)
I would not sacrifice any appendage for any one in OTP either


Please, I wouldn’t even let one of you basement-dwellers play “Got Your Nose” with my kid.
   2195. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 14, 2018 at 08:49 AM (#5606189)
8. When the law deeply conflicts with your personal standard of morality, do you obey it anyway?

Depends what my chances of getting caught are and what the consequences are.

I like this answer, not because I personally agree or disagree with it, but because it acknowledges the sort of difficulty that would present itself in real life when one is presented with these sort of questions. One of the reasons I find that Oxford text so frivolous is that it ignores all the particulars of the situation. Just whose life will sacrificing your leg be saving? Your wife's? Donald Trump's? And yet the real answer to this question for many people, which the test doesn't offer as an option, is "It depends on the person". Saying "agree" or "disagree" with varying degrees of emphasis doesn't really address that point.
   2196. BDC Posted: January 14, 2018 at 09:03 AM (#5606191)
I would not sacrifice any appendage for any one in OTP either

Maybe some of the Canadians, but then I wouldn't have to, right? They get free extra toes from the government.

   2197. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: January 14, 2018 at 09:19 AM (#5606193)
As a kid I broke my pinky toe three times by accidentally banging it into one piece of furniture or another in our house. So my parents were clearly willing to sacrifice my pinky toe so that they could live in a ridiculously overstuffed house.
   2198. Hysterical & Useless Posted: January 14, 2018 at 11:13 AM (#5606204)
If you choose "Neither Agree nor Disagree" for every question you score 36.

Maybe that's closer to how I feel about these questions. If you're willing to make major sacrifices to help others, I'd nominate you for sainthood. But not being so willing doesn't make you a bad person (in my estimation).

Of course, being willing to cause others to make major sacrifices is kind of a different issue, isn't it?
   2199. Srul Itza At Home Posted: January 14, 2018 at 11:24 AM (#5606206)
Big Banner headline in the morning Honolulu Star-Advertiser:


OOPS!
   2200. Morty Causa Posted: January 14, 2018 at 11:32 AM (#5606207)
15

Likes others here, my qualms rest mostly on the on the banding about of the term "morally" or "morally obligated".

The test brings to mind for some reason what J.B.S. Haldane was reported to have said: "I would gladly give up my life for two brothers or eight cousins." Indeed, it would have elicited more telling responses if the test had been couched in biological/sociobiological/evopsych terms than in the empty and unexplained outmoded and nebulous language of worn-out creeds.
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