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Sunday, January 08, 2017

OTP 9 Jan. 2017: What’s next for sports, politics, and TV in 2017?

Cyclical trends may obscure the connection at times, but you can’t permanently disentangle sport from politics:

“Sport in 2017 will con­tinue to be a resur­gent and resounding plat­form for athlete-​​led social activism,” says Dan Lebowitz, exec­u­tive director of Northeastern’s Center for the Study of Sport in Society. “If his­tory repeats itself, 2017 will be this generation’s 1967, a year in which promi­nent ath­letes held a social jus­tice summit to call out insti­tu­tion­al­ized inequity, con­front it, and cat­a­pult a con­ver­sa­tion that America still needs to hear, embrace, and lead.”

Today we have football’s Colin Kaeper­nick, whose national anthem protest cap­tured the nation’s atten­tion, and col­lege basketball’s Bronson Koenig, who protested the Dakota Access Pipeline and then reflected on his expe­ri­ence for The Players’ Tribune.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

 

BDC Posted: January 08, 2017 at 09:10 PM | 1952 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: activism, kaepernick, politics, social justice

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   201. Greg K Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:17 PM (#5380333)

Yes. We know. You are *nostalgic* for a calcified fossil status you don't actually know.

A guy I knew in grad school was doing his work on Eastern European teenagers creating nostalgic fan web-sites for silent film Hollywood stars.

Lost touch before he finished, so I never actually read it.

Ah, found a reference online - "The Young Nostalgics: Contemporary Constructions of 'Pastness' on Tumblr Microblogs".





   202. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:18 PM (#5380334)
But as far which eye candy was Lara Croft, which one was Transformer, which one was Resident Evil or


Lara Croft = Angelina Jolie
Transformers = some brunette
Resident Evil = Mila Jovovich
   203. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:19 PM (#5380335)
You are the one not providing evidence of something major that clearly did not happen. Not me. You are the one claiming to have proof of an appeal that nobody else anywhere claims to have. And you wont produce it , instead you just insult and act like a child. Either produce a copy of the appeal they filed with the courts or admit you are talking out your ass. Cheers.
Like Donald Trump, you're projecting your failings onto others. I provided links to multiple stories saying they appealed. You've provided... legal ignorance and incredulity.
   204. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:20 PM (#5380336)
Lara Croft = Angelina Jolie
Transformers = some brunette
Resident Evil = Mila Jovovich


Megyn Fox
   205. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:21 PM (#5380338)
David
You are the one not providing evidence of something major that clearly did not happen. Not me. You are the one claiming to have proof of an appeal that nobody else anywhere claims to have. And you wont produce it , instead you just insult and act like a child. Either produce a copy of the appeal they filed with the courts or admit you are talking out your ass. Cheers.


I guess you guys have been around on this but Abnormal Use blog for one says that they appealed. Do/did you dispute this?

What efforts were made to settle the matter?

Liebeck initially approached McDonald’s with a demand of $20,000 to cover her medical bills, future medical expenses, and lost income. McDonald’s countered with an offer of $800. (Gerlin, Andrea. “A Matter of Degree,” The Wall Street Journal, September 1, 1994). As trial approached, Liebeck’s settlement demand increased to approximately $300,000. (Id.). After denying McDonald’s motion for summary judgment, the trial judge ordered the parties to attend mediation. During the session, the mediator recommended that McDonald’s accept a $225,000 offer. (Id.). McDonald’s declined. Following the jury verdict and the trial court’s reduction of the punitive damages award, both parties appealed. Before the case was heard on appeal, the parties settled out-of-court for an undisclosed sum.

   206. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:21 PM (#5380339)
A guy I knew in grad school was doing his work on Eastern European teenagers creating nostalgic fan web-sites for silent film Hollywood stars.


I recognize that nostalgia is a part of the natural human condition, but I have pretty much zero understanding of its appeal.
   207. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:21 PM (#5380340)
if we're talking about The Visit.

no
   208. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:22 PM (#5380341)
Water is harmful to them , so they come here in person, unprotected? NAKED????


I always just sort of assumed - defense mechanism probably - that the entire alien motivation was some sort of weird alien cultural artifact/coming of age ritual and so they had to do really dumba$$ stuff - that was what they were there for, to prove themselves.

I don't know that is what the writer or director thought, but it made me able to enjoy the generally OK movie, so it was totally grade A rationalization.
   209. Theo^J Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:22 PM (#5380342)
Art forms have their heyday. On one end, you have your international action blockbuster, on the other a thousand blooms of digital mediocrity often retreading the ideas of the greats. There are still movies worth watching, but the focus is blurred.

I'll watch pretty much anything and everything, but there's few chances to see anything good on the big screen.
   210. McCoy Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:23 PM (#5380343)
Streep might be the most famous actor I know that I've barely watched.

The Devil Wears Prada
The Deer Hunter
Adaptation
She-Devil
Defending Your Life
Death Becomes Her
The River Wild
The Manchurian Candidate
Lions for Lambs
Julie & Julia
Florence Foster Jenkins

Ok, I guess I have seen a bunch of her movies but the fact that I thought I hadn't tells me something about how I view her performances.
   211. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:24 PM (#5380344)
Signs was an OK movie, you just had to really really check your brain and suspend disbelief for quite sometime, and even then you had to shove questions out of your consciousness, "ET travels through thousands of light years have mastered time and space, cannot get through a freaking wood door"
and the bit about water harming the ETs, no the idea that ETs would go to a planet covered with water doesn't bother me- humans will go through stuff dangerous to us to reach other stuff we want/need- but NO PROTECTIVE CLOTHING???? No Robot ETs? If we went to a planet covered in acid you don't think we wouldn't use robots or wear acid-resistive suits? Water is harmful to them , so they come here in person, unprotected? NAKED????


To say nothing of maybe picking a planet to conquer that isn't 2/3 covered in it...

But I think this could pretty much be said of every Shyamalan film.

You keep piling up the suspension of disbeliefs until you get to what you *hope* will be the rewarding O Henry twist ending... then you get it and it sucks.

The Village is the same.

None of his movies - and I think I'd include Sixth Sense in that - make for good second viewings.

   212. Ron J Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:24 PM (#5380345)
#162 I think his take (and that of other lawyers) is that (almost) nothing is a slam dunk if you get to present it to a jury. And that no sane lawyer wants to be on the wrong side of sympathetic plaintiff versus evil corporation. (That's not quite correct. basically any lawyer will acknowledge that those two factors can heavily move the needle regardless of the facts of the case)

And most importantly, they argue that the judge had a duty to dismiss the suit. Once that did not happen, McDonalds was still a favorite but ...

EDIT: I see I've managed to restate a DMN post. Oh well at least it looks like I've understood his argument

   213. Greg K Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:25 PM (#5380346)
Nostalgia appeals to me as a temptation...I just feel awful and worthless after indulging in it.

Which is a problem since current popular culture seems to be narrowly focused on appealing to the nostalgia of my generation. Hopefully in 10 years or so that will be done and they can move on to the next generation. The real nightmare for me is that example of the boomers. I'm not sure I could survive an entire life of appeals to nostalgia.
   214. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:26 PM (#5380348)
I guess you guys have been around on this but Abnormal Use blog for one says that they appealed. Do/did you dispute this?
I quoted that already, along with multiple other sources. He alternately (a) pretends that I didn't do it at all and (b) speculates that an accomplished and experienced lawyer doesn't know the difference between the word "appeal" and the term "post trial motion." (Not in so many words, because Simon doesn't know the latter term either.)
   215. Ron J Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:26 PM (#5380349)
#166 That surprises me. I'd have thought McDonalds had a corporate interest in the case. I know McDonalds is a franchise model but this approach strikes me as short-sighted.

EDIT: And if they're using outside counsel that undermines a lot of the assumptions I had been making. More I think about it though the dumber it seems to me from a corporate POV.
   216. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:27 PM (#5380350)
Lara Croft = Angelina Jolie
Transformers = some brunette
Resident Evil = Mila Jovovich


Megyn Fox


...and my response to a suggestion to see any of those films would be "how about we just google pictures of Kate Upton instead?"
   217. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:27 PM (#5380351)
Yes. We know. You are *nostalgic* for a calcified fossil status you don't actually know.

I'd say it's simply that the studio system knew how to make entertaining movies a lot better than the "artistes" that replaced them.

   218. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:27 PM (#5380352)
that the entire alien motivation was some sort of weird alien cultural artifact/coming of age ritual and so they had to do really dumba$$ stuff - that was what they were there for, to prove themselves.


That in fact explains the Predator movies... Sadly I think you are being far too charitable to M. Night, whose thought process were probably something along the lines of, "this is cool, this is cool, this is cool... ok I'm in a corner, how do I get out? Bacteria! No HG Wells already did that... Water! Day of the Triffids original movie, no one remembers that so I'm golden"
   219. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:27 PM (#5380353)
None of his movies - and I think I'd include Sixth Sense in that - make for good second viewings.


I think unbreakable is worth a second viewing (or is the most re-watchable of his movies at any rate). I have watched Sixth Sense twice and it was ... OK the second time. I loved it the first time though.
   220. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:28 PM (#5380354)
...and my response to a suggestion to see any of those films would be "how about we just google pictures of Kate Upton instead?"

Milla is very Google worthy (Mila too)
   221. McCoy Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:28 PM (#5380355)
None of his movies - and I think I'd include Sixth Sense in that - make for good second viewings.

It's funny. I used to say that of his movies I liked Fallen and The Sixth Sense the best and were the only two that I ever watched more than once. I remember watching The Sixth Sense the first time and being blown away. The second time not so much and unwatchable after that. Shyamalan's pacing absolutely sucks. Anyway it took about a decade or so for me to realize that Fallen wasn't his movie. It seems like it would be. Takes place in Philadelphia and twist ending, but nope.
   222. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:28 PM (#5380356)
Sadly I think you are being far too charitable to M. Night


Hey I thought I was clear, it was my rationalization to make the movie watchable and I am not pretending MNS had that as a reason or anything.
   223. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:30 PM (#5380357)
I'd say it's simply that the studio system knew how to make entertaining movies a lot better than the "artistes" that replaced them.


the studio system made its share of stinkers too, but they did churn out films at such a pace that they were bound to make good ones now and then
   224. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:30 PM (#5380358)
Anyway it took about a decade or so for me to realize that Fallen wasn't his movie.


Another movie I perhaps should have liked, but hated instead. So completely unfair. Our protagonist does everything right and still... sigh.
   225. Swoboda is freedom Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:30 PM (#5380359)
I can't stand method acting. I think Brando was awful in every movie I've seen him in besides The Godfather, and The Freshman.

I agree. Can't stand Brando. Though I would add One Eyed Jacks to the list of movies I like him in. Maybe On the Waterfront.
   226. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:32 PM (#5380362)
I'd say it's simply that the studio system knew how to make entertaining movies a lot better than the "artistes" that replaced them.


Leaving aside which version put out better movies, the studio system was pretty unfair from many points of view beyond just the content it produced. There are plenty of reasons it died.
   227. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:32 PM (#5380363)
Which is a problem since current popular culture seems to be narrowly focused on appealing to the nostalgia of my generation. Hopefully in 10 years or so that will be done and they can move on to the next generation.


Hate to break this to you, but they never move on. Once your generation flips over into the nostalgia-marketing industry it's always there on perpetual repeat.

Oh look, the 80's are hot again! How clever!

This is why I'm currently listening intently to trap music from EA6.
   228. Theo^J Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:33 PM (#5380364)
I love Tarkovsky, but I found Nostalghia hard to digest.
   229. simon bedford Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:34 PM (#5380366)
Ray
The blurb goes on to say that
"decision has to be made whether to seek a new trial or accept the reduced amount.” (“Court Refuses to Raise Award for Coffee Spill,” The Chicago Tribune, October 14, 1994, available at 1994 WLNR 4335536). On November 3, 1994, Judge Scott denied Plaintiff’s October 21, 1994 motion for reconsideration of the remittitur order. Finally, on November 28, 1994, the court vacated the judgment, presumably due to the confidential settlement which was announced in the media the following week."
So they settled before an appeal was launched or filed or they went TO A HIGHER COURT to seek relief. Mcdonalds simply gave in before the original case came to an end.
So what that site is saying is not that the two parties appealed to a higher court, merely that they made appeals to various aspects of the finding, all of which were dismissed and before further action was taken came to a settlement.
It seems obvious to me, David seems to think that you can in a civil case invoke a higher court before the lower court has reached a final decision.
This is what I am disagreeing with him about. that mcdonalds did not appeal to an appellate court ever , they simply came up with a figure and had done with it after they lost the first trial.
   230. McCoy Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:35 PM (#5380367)
Leaving aside which version put out better movies, the studio system was pretty unfair from many points of view beyond just the content it produced. There are plenty of reasons it died.

Cineplexes largely killed it off or would have without government interference. Once you can't have a monopoly outside forces were going to come storming in. Especially back in the 70's and early 80's when the economic barriers to making a major motion picture were relatively small. For a couple of million dollars you could make a film that got into 400 theaters and then in the 80's would make millions more in VCR rentals and cable television. That's how you hairdressers as major motion picture makers and people like Ahnold as major stars.
   231. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:35 PM (#5380369)
I'd say it's simply that the studio system knew how to make entertaining movies a lot better than the "artistes" that replaced them.


I'm not trying to pick a fight over it (god knows you're easy enough to find things to pick fights over, but not this time per se), but I think it really boils down to:

1. You have essentially middlebrow tastes. (this isn't a criticism. I watch Marvel movies more often than anything else..)

2. You have this weird nostalgic attraction to "gentler times" (cross reference your gaping weakness to rhetoric like "make America great again!" and such) and a strong disaffection for your own generation (much less those that follow.)

Combine those together and you get someone watching "It's A Wonderful Life" on repeat for decades on end.
   232. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:38 PM (#5380370)
EDIT: And if they're using outside counsel that undermines a lot of the assumptions I had been making. More I think about it though the dumber it seems to me from a corporate POV.


Large corporations almost always use outside lawyers for litigation.


   233. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:39 PM (#5380371)
the studio system made its share of stinkers too, but they did churn out films at such a pace that they were bound to make good ones now and then

Sure, they had to, because the demand for movies was so high.

In 1947 4.7 BILLION movie tickets were sold in the US vs. 1.3 B last year. That's for a population of 144 M, vs. today's 319 M.

That was 32.6 tickets for every man, woman, and child in the country. Basically if you weren't an infant or an invalid you went to the movies every single week.

They needed to make a lot of new films.
   234. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:40 PM (#5380372)
Cineplexes largely killed it off or would have without government interference. Once you can't have a monopoly outside forces were going to come storming in. Especially back in the 70's and early 80's when the economic barriers to making a major motion picture were relatively small. For a couple of million dollars you could make a film that got into 400 theaters and then in the 80's would make millions more in VCR rentals and cable television. That's how you hairdressers as major motion picture makers and people like Ahnold as major stars.

It was dead long before cineplexes or VCRs were a thing.
   235. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:41 PM (#5380373)
That was 32.6 tickets for every man, woman, and child in the country. Basically if you weren't an infant or an invalid you went to the movies every single week.


1947: No TV
1947: Virtually no in home AC
1947: No PCs, no PS4 and XBox1s
   236. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:45 PM (#5380374)
1947: No TV
1947: Virtually no in home AC
1947: No PCs, no PS4 and XBox1s


I know, but it's still remarkable. Given that demand, and the fact that lots of movies were double features plus a cartoon, the studios simply had to churn out massive numbers of pictures.

People weren't going to pay to watch the same film 5 weeks running.
   237. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:46 PM (#5380375)
1. You have essentially middlebrow tastes. (this isn't a criticism. I watch Marvel movies more often than anything else..)


By the way for those who enjoy Sci Fi and such the Netflix series Travelers* is pretty darn enjoyable. It is not the greatest thing ever or anything, but it is solid and fun.

* The future sucks and has come up with a way to send consciousnesses into past (present) people in an effort to change the future suckiness. It makes a bunch of good decisions including never showing us the future.
   238. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:47 PM (#5380377)
1947: Virtually no in home AC


Summer in the late 80s, a quote from my roommate "Who cares what is showing at the dollar theater? I'll pay them money just to sit in an air conditioned room for a couple hours."
   239. Rickey! the first of his name Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:50 PM (#5380379)
1947: No TV
1947: Virtually no in home AC
1947: No PCs, no PS4 and XBox1s


Means for the burgeoning "teenage" demographic to leave the house and sit in the dark with the other sex for a couple hours.
   240. BDC Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:51 PM (#5380380)
the studios simply had to churn out massive numbers of pictures.

People weren't going to pay to watch the same film 5 weeks running


Yes, but is that any different from TV (increasingly from the 50s to the present moment)? If anything I'm more amazed at the output of the video-entertainment industry in the 2010s (not even counting games) than by Hollywood of the 1940s.
   241. McCoy Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:51 PM (#5380381)
It was dead long before cineplexes or VCRs were a thing.

The studio system broke up because of TV and regulation. As Snapper mentioned before TV movies were your TV. You had serials as your TV shows, shorts for your sitcoms, and cartoons for your kids. But Big Film (Wasserman {sp}) did move to control the making of TV content so you still had to go through the studios to get things made. In the 70's is when you saw the explosion of non-Big Film studios come onto the scene and Big Film loosening its grip on the making of movies.
   242. BDC Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:53 PM (#5380382)
Nostalgia is an interesting concept. I don't have it. The past lacked stuff. It smelt bad. The food was gross.

The past has produced great art, but the great thing about the present is that we can enjoy all of it now. The one thing I don't like about the prospect of being dead is missing all those future artworks and songs and TV series.
   243. McCoy Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:53 PM (#5380383)
Summer in the late 80s, a quote from my roommate "Who cares what is showing at the dollar theater? I'll pay them money just to sit in an air conditioned room for a couple hours."

Back in the late 90's when I worked Plano there was a TV theater next door and the chef used to buy a ticket occasionally to the matinee just so he could fall asleep before returning to work.
   244. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:56 PM (#5380384)
I'm not trying to pick a fight over it (god knows you're easy enough to find things to pick fights over, but not this time per se), but I think it really boils down to:

1. You have essentially middlebrow tastes. (this isn't a criticism. I watch Marvel movies more often than anything else..)

2. You have this weird nostalgic attraction to "gentler times" (cross reference your gaping weakness to rhetoric like "make America great again!" and such) and a strong disaffection for your own generation (much less those that follow.)

Combine those together and you get someone watching "It's A Wonderful Life" on repeat for decades on end.


1. OK, but I hate pretty much every super-hero and sci-fi movie made, and the large majority of action films. So, middle-brow isn't the right term.

I don't think Billy Wilder, and John Ford, and Hitchcok and John Huston, and David Lean are "middlebrow", I think they are great story tellers.

2. I'm mostly attracted to film noir, so not exactly the gentler movies of the age. I also like a lot of the immedaite post-studio stuff in the 60's and 70's that wasn't gentle, but was made by people the studios trained.

At the end of the day, I think I simply like a well-acted movie that tells an interesting story with good characters.

Plot and character are everything to me. Emotion and "meaning" I can live without. I don't need to empathize with the characters, but I need someone I don't hate to root for, and I need a compelling story.
   245. McCoy Posted: January 09, 2017 at 01:56 PM (#5380385)
Nostalgia is an interesting concept. I don't have it. The past lacked stuff. It smelt bad. The food was gross.

I agree with almost all of that except for some video games. I simply don't have enough thumbs to play modern video games and I definitely miss the old days of paying 45 bucks for a computer game and that is all I'll have to shell out that year on that game. Anyway, there should be nothing nostalgic about yesteryear's food. Modern updates to it? Certainly don't make that shvt as created back then because it godawful.

Movies from before the 70's are largely unwatchable to me nowadays and I used to watch them all the time as a kid and even movies from the 70's through the 90's are largely becoming unwatchable to me. TV from before the 00's is also practically unwatchable to me as well.
   246. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:04 PM (#5380392)
Nostalgia is an interesting concept. I don't have it. The past lacked stuff. It smelt bad. The food was gross.

Not that the 1970s were great, but it didn't really smell bad, and there's not a single new technology I would miss except EZ Pass.
   247. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:06 PM (#5380393)
I wouldn't disagree with that, though at times it's hard to distinguish [Presley's] voice from the bloated cartoon figure he eventually became.

How much does the DiMaggio in the death throes of his career count for you?


Not as much as it would have, if Dimaggio had tried to keep playing baseball into his 40's.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I suppose my cinematic opinion is somewhat tainted by the fact that if they never make another superhero or video game movie ever again, I will consider us having entered a true golden age of film.

I agree that it takes a particularly dimwitted type to be attracted to those two genres, but every era has had its cliches that can wear on you after awhile, in spite of the many exceptions to the rule.

In the pre-code era, many of the actors' lines sounded flat, with little emotion, as if they were reading from a script that was written in an unfamiliar language.

In the heart of the Golden Age, you could predict the endings of 90% of the films as soon as you took a look at the actors' faces: The best looking woman would wind up with the best looking man, usually accompanied by a fadeaway wedding proposal.

And every "ethnic" actor, white as well as black, spoke with an exaggerated accent, either for the purpose of mockery or for the purpose of conveying folk wisdom.

In that same era, and extending all the way into the 60's, all religious figures, especially priests, were treated as the Salt of the Earth, while mustachioed men not named Gable or Melvyn Douglas usually got typecast as cuckolds.

And when the second Golden Age came about in the late 60's, for whatever reason seemingly every movie now has to be accompanied by a cloying soundtrack, culminating in a 10 minute scroll of end credits with a musical background. But I know it's so important to acknowledge the 3rd assistant makeup artist to the 6th female actress.

I've also noticed while catching up with the last 20-odd years worth of B-movies via HBO that every goddam drama uses the same ominous background music that Mawsterpiece Theatre performances employ, to signal to the otherwise clueless viewer that there's TENSION in the air (we never would've known that otherwise, thanks!), or that a villain is about to spring out of the dark and stick a shiv into our unsuspecting hero. 99% of the time this amounts to subtraction by addition.

And in virtually every era, youth = either authenticity or maximum cool, unless the genre is black comedy. There's yet to be an era that isn't a prisoner of its own particular cliches, even though (thank God) the best movies figure out a way to avoid them.
   248. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:07 PM (#5380394)
Nostalgia is an interesting concept. I don't have it. The past lacked stuff. It smelt bad. The food was gross.
Except in 1979, of course.
   249. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:07 PM (#5380395)
Not that the 1970s were great, but it didn't really smell bad, and there's not a single new technology I would miss except EZ Pass.
Fuel injection.
   250. Ron J Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:07 PM (#5380396)
#232 Really? Obviously you'd know better than me but that surprises me.

I guess you could hire the top subject matter experts (plus get local expertise if it rates to matter). Huh. You live, you learn.
   251. McCoy Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:15 PM (#5380398)
Not that the 1970s were great, but it didn't really smell bad

Depends on where you live I guess. Land, air, and water quality really are better in America in most parts as compared to the 70's. As a child I remember a lot of pollution basically everywhere. Now then NYC still smells and is still dirty but the rest of the country doesn't look like NYC.
   252. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:16 PM (#5380399)
Fuel injection.

Didn't need it with a 350 V-8.

And the gas mileage isn't that much worse than our modern SUVs and pickups.
   253. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:17 PM (#5380400)
Depends on where you live I guess. Land, air, and water quality really are better in America in most parts as compared to the 70's. As a child I remember a lot of pollution basically everywhere. Now then NYC still smells and is still dirty but the rest of the country doesn't look like NYC.

I think most of the places where it smelled would take the smells, and the jobs that came with them, back
   254. McCoy Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:17 PM (#5380401)
there's not a single new technology I would miss except EZ Pass.


SVGA
Bigger RAM
HD
Faster modems
Non staining newspaper ink
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   255. McCoy Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:19 PM (#5380402)
I think most of the places where it smelled would take the smells, and the jobs that came with them, back

Because everybody is trying to be some horrible industry town in China? China is modernizing and their citizens don't want to live in the environment that their industry has created. Nobody does that is why we move away from that style of industry eventually.
   256. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:20 PM (#5380403)
Nostalgia is an interesting concept. I don't have it. The past lacked stuff. It smelt bad. The food was gross.

Maybe to a gourmand, but at least northern cities always had a decent choice of cheap restaurants, with a few better ones tossed in for the expense account crowd. But sure, we didn't have $25.00 cocktails or $200.00 "tasting" menus, so we didn't know what we were missing.

There are always tradeoffs. Ballparks, for instance. The food is much better there today, and the bathrooms don't smell of cigar smoke and stale piss, but there's something to be said for being able to walk up and buy a box seat ticket behind the plate for a Yankees-Red Sox game that was the equivalent of about $25.00 today. Of course the game on the field is far superior today, but unless you could get into a time machine there would've been no way for us back then to know that.

Not to mention that in cities commercial rents have made it virtually impossible to start a business with a small initial investment. I opened my first shop in Georgetown in 1984 for just under $20,000, and that included everything from books to cases to insurance to licensing to the first two months' rent. Even if the internet hadn't come along to put the kibosh on the kind of shop I had, there's no way on Earth that I could've opened today without spending 5 or 10 times as much.
   257. Lassus Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:21 PM (#5380404)
Oh ####, I think my passport runs out today.
   258. Lassus Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:22 PM (#5380405)
I'm pretty sure snapper would miss modern medicine.
   259. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:23 PM (#5380408)
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You could get rid of the PC, internet, computer games, and cell phones tomorrow, and I wouldn't care.

We had UPS in the 70's.
   260. McCoy Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:23 PM (#5380409)
Speaking of McDonald's and movies anyone else looking forward to Keaton's The Founder? It looks pretty interesting. A nice little renaissance for him.
   261. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:24 PM (#5380410)
I'm pretty sure snapper would miss modern medicine.


When was FedEx first able to overnight water from Lourdes?
   262. Ithaca2323 Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:24 PM (#5380411)
The study found that despite those with disabilities (visible and nonvisible) representing nearly 20% of the country’s population, about 95% of characters with disabilities on television are played by able-bodied actors.


So, I'm really a lurker here, but as a person in a wheelchair I wanted to give my two cents. (Not that it's inherently more valuable, just because I'm interested)

I don't really have a problem with able-bodied people portraying disabled people. Frankly, and I think I've mentioned this before, I'd rather see more portrayals of disabled individuals in movies/shows that aren't about them disabled. I think just seeing the occasional rom-com where one of the characters happens to be in a wheelchair, but it's not a plot point, would be interesting.
   263. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:25 PM (#5380412)
I watched them but only because everyone else in the house wanted to watch them.


This would be why people kill their families.
   264. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:25 PM (#5380413)
Didn't need it with a 350 V-8.

And the gas mileage isn't that much worse than our modern SUVs and pickups.
You're comparing a sedan with an SUV? How about a 2016 BMW 3-Series automatic transmission, gas sedan with all-wheel drive getting 34 MPG on the highway while going 0-60 in 8.0 seconds?
   265. DJS, the Digital Dandy Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:25 PM (#5380414)
You could get rid of the PC, internet, computer games, and cell phones tomorrow, and I wouldn't care.


I certainly would - that makes my income about $0!
   266. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:25 PM (#5380415)
I'm pretty sure snapper would miss modern medicine.

I'm not talking about the 1870s.

I'll stuipulate that any time before penicillin and anesthetic would have sucked.
   267. McCoy Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:26 PM (#5380416)

We had UPS in the 70's.


I was thinking more of the overnight deliveries that FedEx pioneered but apparently he created the business in the 70's and it started to take off in the mid to late 70's.
   268. McCoy Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:27 PM (#5380419)
I think just seeing the occasional rom-com where one of the characters happens to be in a wheelchair, but it's not a plot point, would be interesting.

Watch Farrelly brothers movies.
   269. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:27 PM (#5380420)
Not that the 1970s were great, but it didn't really smell bad


Depends on where you live I guess. Land, air, and water quality really are better in America in most parts as compared to the 70's. As a child I remember a lot of pollution basically everywhere. Now then NYC still smells and is still dirty but the rest of the country doesn't look like NYC.

I lived in Manhattan in the immediate post-WW 2 era, and every summer day I came back home my face and arms were grimy from the soot in the air, and the shirts that were left out to dry on the clotheslines that ran between apartment buildings also suffered much of the same fate.

Durham in the 60's reeked of tobacco, many of the side streets in small towns and big city ghettos weren't even paved, and your eyes would sting if you walked out on a smog day in the Los Angeles of the late 60's and early 70's. And in places as far apart as Philly and LA and Shreveport, the tap water tasted so foul you'd be buying bottled water out of desperation.

OTOH Washington was always smelling pretty fresh, unless you went down by the Potomac on a hot day before they finally got around to cleaning up that de facto open sewer. In the early 70's you could catch a serious disease just by putting your arm in the water while you were paddling a rental boat around the Tidal Basin.
   270. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:27 PM (#5380421)
I'm pretty sure snapper would miss modern medicine.
He doesn't want to live past 65 anyway. (Or is it 70?)
   271. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:27 PM (#5380422)
At the end of the day, I think I simply like a well-acted movie that tells an interesting story with good characters.


I'm done with horror movies or war movies. I pretty much never started on sci-fi, adventure, fantasy, the artsy movies, the "epic" period pieces, or Pixar.

I'm basically down to action, thriller, drama (of a certain subset), western, and comedy.

Whenever a tagline starts out with "An Indian boy..." or "An African American man..." or "A young Jewish girl..." or "A young Greek couple..." I stop reading and permanently discard the movie. I don't want to watch movies that have such a deeply seated religious or cultural theme to them. I'm just not interested and find them boring.
   272. McCoy Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:28 PM (#5380423)

This would be why people kill their families.


I have a "rule" of no TV in the bedroom. I believe it kills or helps deaden relationships. Once you start occupying other parts of the house for huge swaths of time you're just roommates.
   273. simpleton & childlike gef the talking mongoose Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:29 PM (#5380424)
Huh, I didn't know Stormfront published film reviews.


The Leni Riefenstahl Film Festival ain't gonna put itself on every year.
   274. Lassus Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:29 PM (#5380425)
I'm pretty sure snapper would miss modern medicine.
I'm not talking about the 1870s.


I understand that, but considering how often you've mentioned your surgeries, I'm pretty sure there has been advances since 1975 that would make these experiences worse.
   275. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:30 PM (#5380426)
You're comparing a sedan with an SUV? How about a 2016 BMW 3-Series automatic transmission, gas sedan with all-wheel drive getting 34 MPG on the highway?

Yes. A 4000 lb. car that seats 6 comfortably and 8 in a pinch is comparable to modern SUVs.

The whole reason we have SUVs is that CAFE exempted light trucks. So you could build heavy, powerful SUVs, but not the heavy., powerful sedans everyone drove before that.

Also, that MPG is BS. Our jeep is rated at 18/23. We're lucky to get 15 in real life driving. 20 is only on a 300 mile road trip.

I'd probably average 22 MPG in the Beemer.
   276. Greg K Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:31 PM (#5380428)
Summer in the late 80s, a quote from my roommate "Who cares what is showing at the dollar theater? I'll pay them money just to sit in an air conditioned room for a couple hours."

I did this in Dublin once. Walked around the city about 18 times all day and sitting down to watch a movie was so pleasant I stayed for another show. For the life if me I cannot remember what either movie was, but I've never enjoyed being in a movie theatre quite as much as that day.
   277. Greg K Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:33 PM (#5380429)
The past has produced great art, but the great thing about the present is that we can enjoy all of it now. The one thing I don't like about the prospect of being dead is missing all those future artworks and songs and TV series.

One of the most depressing things about contemplating my death is the thought that when I die there will be some great young baseball player whose full career I will not get to see.
   278. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:34 PM (#5380431)
I understand that, but considering how often you've mentioned your surgeries, I'm pretty sure there has been advances since 1975 that would make these experiences worse.

Cystoscopy is pretty old. I'm not sure on the exact details. I would have benefite NOT having the two opne surgeries I had, since they didn't do #### to help.
   279. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:34 PM (#5380432)
I'd probably average 22 MPG in the Beemer.
You must have learned how to drive at the Jolly Old St. Nick Academy. I've owned the same BMW for nearly 13 years. Its original mileage specs were 21/30 and it still averages 24-25 MPG in combined city/highway driving, a tick higher when I'm mostly on I-95.
   280. McCoy Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:35 PM (#5380433)
I'm currently waffling on buying a new car and the MPG is definitely a big factor in what I'll end up buying. Currently I'm putting 400 miles of commuter travel on my car a week and if I can squeeze out 10 more miles per gallon I'll certainly do it. Currently I'm getting 24 MPG highway with my 2009 Toyota Camry (better known as the most boring tank I've ever owned) and would love to get it in the 30's and have a car that has some pep for highway travel and is comfortable and fun to sit in for hours at a time. Haven't really found that golden goose yet and I'm hesitant to get anything nice since I'm going to be putting 20,000+ miles on it a year as it currently stands. I'm thinking about getting the Chevy Bolt when it becomes available as it is supposed to have some pep and I can do my daily commute without worrying about charging it before the drive home.
   281. Lassus Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:35 PM (#5380434)
Summer in the late 80s, a quote from my roommate "Who cares what is showing at the dollar theater? I'll pay them money just to sit in an air conditioned room for a couple hours."

Waterworld was worth every damn penny of the $2 I paid to see it at the Oasis in Portland. I spent $1 on Forrest Gump in the same place and felt I had been robbed.
   282. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:35 PM (#5380435)
One of the most depressing things about contemplating my death is the thought that when I die there will be some great young baseball player whose full career I will not get to see.

Don't worry, he'll probably blow his arm out.
   283. Greg K Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:36 PM (#5380436)
At the end of the day, I think I simply like a well-acted movie that tells an interesting story with good characters.

Plot and character are everything to me. Emotion and "meaning" I can live without. I don't need to empathize with the characters, but I need someone I don't hate to root for, and I need a compelling story.

This kind of sounds like me...though I do have a sentimental streak I'm not proud of, so I might have to cut "emotion" from the passage. Otherwise I'm willing to sign on.

I do check every week to see if there is something worth watching, and am usually disappointed. But that is because I am currently living in a city with two movie theatres which both show the same big budget stuff. Most of the time they are literally showing the same 6 movies...I don't get it. But when I've lived in more cinema-friendly cities I can usually find a movie every couple weeks that is worth a shot.
   284. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:37 PM (#5380437)
You must have learned how to drive at the Jolly St. Nick Academy. I've owned the same BMW for nearly 13 years. Its original mileage specs were 21/30 and it still averages 24-25 MPG in combined city/highway driving, a tick higher when I'm mostly on I-95.

I have a heavy foot. And on the highway I'm doing 75-85 in daylight if the traffic allows.

I can get more money, I can't get more time.
   285. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:37 PM (#5380438)
You're comparing a sedan with an SUV? How about a 2016 BMW 3-Series automatic transmission, gas sedan with all-wheel drive getting 34 MPG on the highway while going 0-60 in 8.0 seconds?

Or how about a 2014 Honda Fit that cost less than $15,000 new, needs virtually no maintenance beyond oil and lube changes, and averages well over 30MPG? To put it bluntly, the cars of 40 to 60 years ago may have looked good out of the factory, but once you started driving them you were in the shop every few months for either tuneups or repairs. Volkswagens have a deserved bad rep today, but those fabled Beetles of the 60's were designed with one minor flaw: The air cooled engines didn't cool the 3rd cylinder properly, and you wound up having to spend the equivalent of several thousand dollars today to replace the goddam thing after about 40,000 or 50,000 miles. I get the feeling that the people who are the most nostalgic for the cars of the 50's or 60's are the people who didn't have to spring for their own repair bills.
   286. Morty Causa Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:37 PM (#5380439)
Nostalgia is an interesting concept. I don't have it. The past lacked stuff. It smelt bad. The food was gross.

As a matter of first impression, I find this statement odd coming from an English professor. Do you think Shakespeare has only bogus nostalgia value? Pope, Milton, Dryden, Blake, Austen, Dickens, Twain, Yeats, Shaw, Wilde, and so on? Doesn't then also apply to movies--Ford, Hawks, Hitchcock, Lubitsch, Sturges, etc. Is it only about nostalgia, or is it that the process from then to now has winnowed the chaff from the wheat? Most of what we consume now of popular culture is dross, fiber, which will be expelled, but some things will last. It's worth it to know which what the standards are that runs those aesthetic mills that grind so exceedingly fine. Don't you think? And isn't that your main job? Or is it, what the hell, let's not teach Hamlet or Huck Finn; let's go with Ralph Roister Doister. C'est toute la même merde. What's mainly important culturally is consuming as much as possible of that roughage so as to excrete as much shitt as possible.
   287. Guy Heckler's Veto Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:38 PM (#5380440)

A quote regarding a conversation with Che Guevera and Che t-shirts in America as your go-to regarding Nat Hentoff's work has no personal political focus or animus. OK then.


I have no idea if this was rebutted later or not, but Hentoff's encounter with Che, far from being about scoring points or not was about an example of the best of Nat Hentoff and his virtue. Given an in in a situation where others were expected to by sycophants, he directly challenged the more powerful person with a question he probably never had to hear before. When he talked about how "laughter could be chilling" he was talking about how censorious illiberalism can be chilling, with Cuba being a logical extension of that (not quite at the level of the Soviet Union or China.)
   288. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:38 PM (#5380441)
This kind of sounds like me...though I do have a sentimental streak I'm not proud of, so I might have to cut "emotion" from the passage. Otherwise I'm willing to sign on.

I'm not saying a movie can never choke me up a bit. It's more that I detest emotionally overwrought perfromances.
   289. Greg K Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:40 PM (#5380442)

I agree with almost all of that except for some video games. I simply don't have enough thumbs to play modern video games and I definitely miss the old days of paying 45 bucks for a computer game and that is all I'll have to shell out that year on that game. Anyway, there should be nothing nostalgic about yesteryear's food. Modern updates to it? Certainly don't make that shvt as created back then because it godawful.

There does seem to be a massive explosion of nostalgia in video games. Tons of games specifically designed to look like they are NES games.

I sort of feel like we're living in a golden age of video games. Seems like a never-ending variety, and that's even with me cutting out whole genres (First-Person Shooters, Button-Mash Action Games, Real-Time Strategy).
   290. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:40 PM (#5380443)
You must have learned how to drive at the Jolly Old St. Nick Academy.

FTR, JOSN hasn't had anything but a parking ticket for the past 20+ years. Just because I like to sike out my wife by steering with my knee doesn't mean that I'm not paying attention.
   291. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:41 PM (#5380444)
Or how about a 2014 Honda Fit that cost less than $15,000 new, needs virtually no maintenance beyond oil and lube changes, and averages well over 30MPG?

I'd rather walk than drive a mini-car. I'm 6'2, 225. Most Japanese sedans are uncomfortable for me.

And a 1.5 L engine? C'mon now.

I still regret getting the V-6 in my Jeep rather than the Hemi.

Cars should be comfortable, look good, and go fast. And i want one 4-wheel drive in the house so we don't get stuck inside when it snows.
   292. Greg K Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:41 PM (#5380445)
Speaking of McDonald's and movies anyone else looking forward to Keaton's The Founder? It looks pretty interesting. A nice little renaissance for him.

My initial thought was, I wonder how derivative of the Social Network it will end up being? Keaton's been fun lately though. I imagine it will be better than Gold.
   293. Morty Causa Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:43 PM (#5380449)
Plot and character are everything to me. Emotion and "meaning" I can live without. I don't need to empathize with the characters, but I need someone I don't hate to root for, and I need a compelling story.

This kind of sounds like me...though I do have a sentimental streak I'm not proud of, so I might have to cut "emotion" from the passage. Otherwise I'm willing to sign on.

Most people feel this way. They have been created ex nihilo perfect and experience and learning, hey that's for those crackers and rednecks.

If you think about, this is rally a nihilistic mindset at best. It's all just about consuming Snicker bars into a stupor. Then waking up and doing it again.
   294. Renegade (((JE))) Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:44 PM (#5380450)
I'd rather walk than drive a mini-car. I'm 6'2, 225. Most Japanese sedans are uncomfortable for me.
Andy's as thin as a reed but he's just as tall as you.
   295. Greg K Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:46 PM (#5380452)
I don't really have a problem with able-bodied people portraying disabled people. Frankly, and I think I've mentioned this before, I'd rather see more portrayals of disabled individuals in movies/shows that aren't about them disabled. I think just seeing the occasional rom-com where one of the characters happens to be in a wheelchair, but it's not a plot point, would be interesting.

I think I may have asked this before, but have you seen Notting Hill?

One of the supporting characters is in a wheel-chair - I think they use her disability at one point to illustrate her relationship with her husband. But for most of the movie she's just Hugh Grant's friend who happens to be in a wheel-chair.

Of course, then you'd be watching Notting Hill, so there's always a price to pay.
   296. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:46 PM (#5380453)
I have no idea if this was rebutted later or not, but Hentoff's encounter with Che, far from being about scoring points or not was about an example of the best of Nat Hentoff and his virtue. Given an in in a situation where others were expected to by sycophants, he directly challenged the more powerful person with a question he probably never had to hear before. When he talked about how "laughter could be chilling" he was talking about how censorious illiberalism can be chilling, with Cuba being a logical extension of that (not quite at the level of the Soviet Union or China.)

In his memoir, Hentoff also goes out of his way to praise Joan Baez, who was among the first anti-war protesters to call attention** to the euphemistically tagged "re-education" camps that the Vietnamese set up after the fall of Saigon. Around that time I remember seeing her at a rally for the boat people on the Ellipse, and was struck by how consistent she was in her standing up for the underdog. She was the same person I saw in 1963 doing SNCC fundraisers at North Carolina College, nothing at all like the caricatures that were often made of her by conservatives.

** With full page newspaper ads and more
   297. McCoy Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:47 PM (#5380454)

My initial thought was, I wonder how derivative of the Social Network it will end up being? Keaton's been fun lately though. I imagine it will be better than Gold.


Odd because the material doesn't lead itself to being similar to The Social Network. Ray didn't turn McDonald's into a juggernaut because he was on the spectrum and wanted to meet girls. It appears The Founder is going to be about a man with a dream clashing with creators that simply like what they already have and don't share in Kroc's dream plus Kroc don't want to share.
   298. Morty Causa Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:49 PM (#5380456)
How much does the DiMaggio in the death throes of his career count for you?

Not as much as it would have, if Dimaggio had tried to keep playing baseball into his 40's.

Try not to hand wave the point away. If you think the example of DiMaggio doesn't fit, use another. I'm sure you know of athletes--hell, anyone in any field of endeavor--who hangs in there way past his "sell by" date.
   299. Greg K Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:50 PM (#5380457)
Actually now that I think of it Stephen Merchant's Hello Ladies has a character in a wheel-chair. He's a bit of an ####### that Merchant hates, but never the less manages to tag along when he goes out to the clubs. His disability is often used for humour though. Merchant is constantly rude to him, which plays up his character's awkwardness as being rude to a guy in a wheelchair is a good way to turn people off.
   300. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 09, 2017 at 02:50 PM (#5380458)
I'd rather walk than drive a mini-car. I'm 6'2, 225. Most Japanese sedans are uncomfortable for me.


Andy's as thin as a reed but he's just as tall as you.

Well, not quite (6'0" / 165), but I've always driven sub-compacts with manual floor clutches, and if I were 6'2" I'd just slide the seat back a notch. Those Fits and Corollas and Civics are perfectly comfortable for people my size or slightly bigger.
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