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Monday, October 09, 2017

OTP 9 October 2017: Trump Tells Pence to Leave N.F.L. Game as Players Kneel During Anthem

Mr. Pence lavishly documented his early departure in a series of tweets and an official statement issued by his office. On Twitter, he declared, “I left today’s Colts game because @POTUS and I will not dignify any event that disrespects our soldiers, our Flag, or our National Anthem.”

While the vice president portrayed his decision as a gesture of patriotic principle, it had the distinct appearance of a well-planned, if costly, political stunt. He doubled back from a trip to the West Coast to take a seat in the stands in Indianapolis, where the 49ers — the team most associated with the N.F.L. protest movement against racial injustice — were suiting up to play the Colts.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 09, 2017 at 07:53 AM | 2170 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: nfl, politics

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   1401. Lassus Posted: October 12, 2017 at 09:42 AM (#5550982)
Yes, but nobody even gets my Barbara Stanwyck trollery.

I should have given credit for this earlier, it was pretty masterful.
   1402. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 12, 2017 at 09:42 AM (#5550983)
I have mentioned it before but the single "best" Trolling I ever witnesses was someone's handle.

Disagree. The single most telling sign of trolling is the constant and stubborn misrepresentation of an opponent's POV, done by either twisting his words around or deliberately quoting his words out of context. Not all trolls are always trolls (Ray and Morty, for example, slip in and out of that category), but serial offenders along those lines are the internet's version of kudzu.

A variant of that trolling tactic comes in two stages. First, the posing of a question or an argument, followed by a refusal to even acknowledge when that question or argument has been answered.** The troll then just goes on to something else, pretending that he never heard the response. It's an art form whose roots lie in the simple inability of some people to ever concede that they've ever been wrong about anything, and it's another sure sign of trollery.

** And when pressed, they'll often respond by saying "I'm not obligated to respond to everything you say", even if what that person said was in direct response to the initial question or comment. Ray is probably the most proficient practitioner of this sly little move, but he's not the only one who uses it.
   1403. PreservedFish Posted: October 12, 2017 at 09:42 AM (#5550984)
Yes, but nobody even gets my Barbara Stanwyck trollery. They just respond with another top ten list of Barbara Stanwyck movies.


I was wondering what you were onto with that.
   1404. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 12, 2017 at 09:44 AM (#5550987)
virtually everyone engages in some form of trollery from time to time


Yes, but nobody even gets my Barbara Stanwyck trollery. They just respond with another top ten list of Barbara Stanwyck movies.

D'oh!
   1405. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 12, 2017 at 09:46 AM (#5550991)
You cannot contract away your right to report crimes to the police or prosecutors.¹ That would be void as against public policy. But you certainly can enter into an NDA that prevents you from discussing someone's alleged crimes with the media or with other people.

¹ That having been said, if you accepted money not to do so, you'd have to return it.


Ah, OK. That makes sense.

Another question... Can the contents of an NDA be used as evidence at a trial? I.e., let's say Weinstein gets charged with rape/assault/etc -- and there exists an NDA with all sorts of vagary about the incident, but in some way validates something like a date or a place. I'm assuming in drafting such an NDA, the attorneys try to stay away from such specifics -- but just using the Rose McGowan example, if her NDA were to establish that "something" happened on a certain date at a certain place, could the NDA itself be used to challenge say, a defense assertion that there's no proof both parties were at place X on date Y?

I suppose the answer is probably "it depends" -- but I guess I'm just wondering what/if any use such NDA might have for either party at a criminal trial...
   1406. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 12, 2017 at 09:54 AM (#5550995)
"Troll" actually is what people like Mouse and Andy imagine "modern liberal" to be.
   1407. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 12, 2017 at 09:57 AM (#5550996)
The single most telling sign of trolling is the constant and stubborn misrepresentation of an opponent's POV, done by either twisting his words around or deliberately quoting his words out of context.


Poor, poor Andy. So, so, so misunderstood.

Pauvre petit.
   1408. Lassus Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:00 AM (#5550998)
Poor, poor Andy. So, so, so misunderstood.

Yeah, he's not really representing your lack of thoughtfulness. You just make crap up out of whole cloth.
   1409. DavidFoss Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:01 AM (#5550999)
The single most telling sign of trolling is the constant and stubborn misrepresentation of an opponent's POV, done by either twisting his words around or deliberately quoting his words out of context.

Ha ha... you think the discussion has run its course and then someone posts "Is everyone who disagrees with me still claiming X?" Then the discussion goes on for a couple of hundred more posts. I've seen that somewhere before. :-)
   1410. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:06 AM (#5551001)
Yeah, he's not really representing your lack of thoughtfulness.


You mean the kind of thoughtfulness on display when I was repeatedly accused of being a rape apologist because I was distinguishing between juveniles and adults? Yeah, so, so, so very very ... thoughtful.



   1411. PreservedFish Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:11 AM (#5551004)
The single most telling sign of trolling is the constant and stubborn misrepresentation of an opponent's POV, done by either twisting his words around or deliberately quoting his words out of context.


That can also be a sign of stupidity, or lack of imagination, or pig-headedness, or just carelessness.
   1412. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:11 AM (#5551005)
Disagree. The single most telling sign of trolling is...


You misunderstood what I wrote. I was talking about the single most amazing instance of trolling I ever witnessed, not the most common or best tactic for trolling in general.
   1413. PreservedFish Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:13 AM (#5551006)
You misunderstood what I wrote.


Or he was engaging in the world's most classic trolling tactic!
   1414. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:15 AM (#5551008)
Yeah, he's not really representing your lack of thoughtfulness. You just make crap up out of whole cloth.


Which brings us back to the idea that on some topics certain posters are not worth engaging on. Of course it is up to each poster to decide what topic/poster combinations are such for them. Trolling is, of course, not the only behavior that renders discussion moot, but it is the behavior with the coolest label.
   1415. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:16 AM (#5551009)
Or he was engaging in the world's most classic trolling tactic.


LOL (In a good way).

+1.


I wish I had thought of that, darn it.
   1416. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:17 AM (#5551011)
Which brings us back to the idea that on some topics certain posters are not worth engaging on.


Yet some of us are repeatedly defamed as rape apologists and are still able to engage.

Go figure.
   1417. PreservedFish Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:18 AM (#5551012)
LOL (In a good way).


No emoji though?
   1418. Lassus Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:18 AM (#5551013)
You mean the kind of thoughtfulness on display when I was repeatedly accused of being a rape apologist because I was distinguishing between juveniles and adults?

No, I was talking about you, not other people. Like when you said I wanted to execute 16-year-olds because I called them barbaric.
   1419. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:20 AM (#5551015)
1282


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Thank you for weighing in, Mr. President...
   1420. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:24 AM (#5551018)
No emoji though?


¯\_(ツ)_/¯
   1421. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:25 AM (#5551022)
Thank you for weighing in, Mr. President...


Actually the post you quoted was more unhinged than most of Dear Leader's rants. I assumed low blood sugar was the culprit and tried to ignore it.
   1422. PreservedFish Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:32 AM (#5551028)
Gotta tell you the truth, I only just barely know who Barbara Stanwyck is.
   1423. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:34 AM (#5551030)
So twitter has suspended Rose McGowan.... other than a few (wholly apolitical, mostly scifi players) - I don't follow/read many 'famous people' (non-politician, non-journalist/news) but I'm familiar enough with twitter to be completely stumped as to why. Just perusing her last ~week of tweets, I am at a complete loss as why.

The most objectionable thing she seems to have tweeted to me is "#### Ben Affleck".... and you can't kick over a twitter rock without a few #### whomevers.
   1424. The Good Face Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:34 AM (#5551031)
Actually the post you quoted was more unhinged than most of Dear Leader's rants. I assumed low blood sugar was the culprit and tried to ignore it.


You actually think I wrote that myself? I'll have you know that's a famous quote from classic cinema.
   1425. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:39 AM (#5551037)
You actually think I wrote that myself? I'll have you know that's a famous quote from classic cinema.


OK. I feel even better for having ignored it then.
   1426. PreservedFish Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:41 AM (#5551038)
So twitter has suspended Rose McGowan.... I am at a complete loss as why.


The liberal industrial rape complex conspiracy, natch.
   1427. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:43 AM (#5551039)
OK... McGowan was suspended over the "#### off Ben Affleck" tweet. Ridiculous.
   1428. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:46 AM (#5551041)
Twitter is just comically stupid. In 2057, it's going to look more ridiculous than the leisure suit looks now.

This entire era is either going to be the stuff of high tragedy if the Decline continues apace, or high comedy if somehow things get back on the track of actual sane progress. It's just an absurd time in history and will, beyond any question, be seen as such 50, 100, and 200 years from now.
   1429. Omineca Greg Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:47 AM (#5551042)
Yes, but nobody even gets my Barbara Stanwyck trollery.

I should have given credit for this earlier, it was pretty masterful
I thought it was too subtle. Make it big! I would have posted something like...




Once again we have a list of great thespians, and once again perhaps the greatest actress of the 20th century is ignored. I don't know why nobody remembers Barbara Stanwyck, or gives her any credit for what I feel are outstanding performances. Really, it affects the credibility of all the self-styled classic movie experts here that they never talk about her...in fact it's bizarre, I'm sorry, I have to think there's some sort of systemic bias against her. For awhile I was afraid it was because she was involved with a really young Robert Wagner, but it doesn't really make sense, sure she was old enough to be his mom, but with the way the "Anything Goes" pervies here think, it would shock me that this is where they find some scruples.

But then I realised what it was: It was her politics!

People can have genuine disagreements about the role of government in the economic sphere, that's not the issue. But why a great artist has her work diminished and forgotten because she wasn't buying into any of this New Deal jive, well, it's an exercise best left to the reader. Everybody march as one, lockstep, or you know what'll happen. I think you're seeing this today with Weinstein, because he's on the "right" side (and by "right" I mean "left") everything he did is A-OK (which sure seems to be what people are saying), but God knows as soon as a woman (I know how you lefties feel about strong conservative women) expresses a bit of love for the laissez faire, then throw her away. Maybe if there were still an MPA today, we wouldn't be in this terrible mess we are now, or who knows, maybe we would be, but one thing I know is that just ignoring (that's right, if you have her on "Ignore" why don't you mention it every few pages, that seems to be the modus operandi (I'm really getting sick of all the Latin around here too, ####### bullshit)), her like that really shows the modern liberal mindset.

Sick.

Puppies.

Not once, and I mean not once, have I seen her name mentioned here. Frankly, it's ridiculous.

But whatever, you guys are old, what's the chance you're going to change your minds after reading a post on a baseball board, not matter how articulate, intelligent, and perceptive it is? Stick with what you're doing Stanwyck haters, ultimately it just reflects on you. And let's face it...

IT'S NOT A GOOD LOOK!!!!
   1430. PepTech Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:47 AM (#5551043)
So I may need some advice, don't really know yet. I sold a car yesterday. It's 2001, has over 250K miles. Offered it for $500 under blue book and took a couple hundred less than that. The guy came and drove it around, asked about some issues, I answered to the best of my ability. It's at the point where time suggests some stuff is going to happen to it, but he said he was a mechanic and could work on it. We completed the bill of sale and off he went.

I got a VM overnight (wasn't answering the phone) saying "there is an issue". I've reached back out but haven't heard yet.

What are my responsibilities here? If, I don't know, the head gasket blew on their way home (I don't know, I'm making that up as an example) is it on me to make amends or rescind the sale? Legally, ethically... just curious as to the collected wisdom here. TIA.

   1431. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:47 AM (#5551044)
The single most telling sign of trolling is the constant and stubborn misrepresentation of an opponent's POV, done by either twisting his words around or deliberately quoting his words out of context.

That can also be a sign of stupidity, or lack of imagination, or pig-headedness, or just carelessness.


In some cases, sure, but not when it's a course of action that continues for months and even years. And as the rodent wrote in #1383, "There is a certain amount of 'I know it when I see it' baked into every definition...."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Disagree. The single most telling sign of trolling is...

You misunderstood what I wrote. I was talking about the single most amazing instance of trolling I ever witnessed, not the most common or best tactic for trolling in general.


Fair enough.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You misunderstood what I wrote.

Or he was engaging in the world's most classic trolling tactic!

Now I have to kill you.
   1432. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:52 AM (#5551051)
O-Greg (#1429),

As Bart said to his family after Homer stormed out of the room saying he was going to Clown College, "I don't think any of us really expected that", but that was still a classic parody rant.
   1433. PreservedFish Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:52 AM (#5551052)
Twitter is just comically stupid. In 2057, it's going to look more ridiculous than the leisure suit looks now.


I suspect Twitter will be dead, replaced by something that we barely have the capacity to imagine now, but I also suspect that it will be seen as an important stepping stone to whatever that future is. The ability for celebrities and officials and journalists to communicate instantly to millions of people is fascinating and significant. I'm not saying it's a Guttenberg level achievement, but it's definitely something. Future historians will make hay with the fact that we have a president who apparently regards Twitter as the best and most authentic way to communicate, and they're not going to analyze it as a bizarre short-term fad but rather as a watershed moment.
   1434. Morty Causa Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:53 AM (#5551056)
Yes, but nobody even gets my Barbara Stanwyck trollery.

Well, there is a fine line between trollery--oh, never mind.

   1435. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:55 AM (#5551061)
I agree with #1433. Say something dumb so I can disagree with it, OK?
   1436. PreservedFish Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:55 AM (#5551062)
#1429 Bravo

Troll more plz
   1437. Chicago Joe Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:56 AM (#5551063)
Gotta tell you the truth, I only just barely know who Barbara Stanwyck is.


WAYSA?
   1438. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:57 AM (#5551064)
The ability for celebrities and officials and journalists to communicate instantly to millions of people is fascinating and significant.


Right, but 90% of what they communicate is stupid or banal. I agree that the fact that such widespread, broad communication is available so cheaply is fascinating and significant in itself. In lieu of 140 character banalities, I prefer using the cheap communications infrastructure to, e.g., meet and get to know women far more efficiently and with far more geographic scope ... but YMMV.

Relationships between men and women have been revolutionized by it, and will never again be the same as they were in the late 20th century.(*) Obviously fascinating and significant.

(*) Note to BDC: And men/men and women/women, too, I'm sure. No implication to the contrary, or unthinking default to standard gender roles and relationships, intended.
   1439. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:57 AM (#5551066)
#1430 - If you were honest and upfront initially then you have zero ethical responsibility in my opinion. You were not purposefully taking advantage of an ignorant fool, just selling a car.

That said you should find out what the "issue" is, but most likely it is not your problem.
   1440. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:00 AM (#5551069)
I've put Barbara Stanwyck on ignore.
   1441. Booey Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:01 AM (#5551070)
What are my responsibilities here? If, I don't know, the head gasket blew on their way home (I don't know, I'm making that up as an example) is it on me to make amends or rescind the sale? Legally, ethically... just curious as to the collected wisdom here. TIA.


I'd say you don't have any responsibilities here. A car that old, with that many miles, being sold for that cheap...anyone who buys it should know that something could go wrong at any time. Especially a mechanic. It's buyer beware. That's why you let them drive it around in advance so they can catch any issues that the seller might not have noticed (or been honest enough to mention).

You're in the clear, IMO.
   1442. Chicago Joe Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:01 AM (#5551071)
I'm not saying it's a Guttenberg level achievement


His understated performance in Three Men and a Baby is the stuff dreams are made of.
   1443. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:03 AM (#5551073)
So I guess some are not happy ... Girl Scouts slam Boy Scouts' decision to accept girls: 'The Boy Scouts' house is on fire'

The Girl Scouts of the USA has issued a blistering rebuke of the Boy Scouts of America's decision to begin letting girls into the ranks of its troops.

"The Boy Scouts' house is on fire," Girl Scouts told ABC News in a statement today. "Instead of addressing systemic issues of continuing sexual assault, financial mismanagement and deficient programming, BSA's senior management wants to add an accelerant to the house fire by recruiting girls."
   1444. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:06 AM (#5551077)
I know we have moved on, but I wasn't able to adress this yesterday. OK, I wasn't able to address is when I discovered my mistake, and by the time I was able, I had forgotten. From the stupid WNBA topic:

So I was right. You do not know what an ad hominem attack in. You are not skilled enough is a perfectly legitimate response to the question "Why can't I play a professional sport?"


??

That wasn't the question I posed.


OK Bear, you are correct. I misread your initial post on this:

1129. Rockwell Posted: October 11, 2017 at 01:56 PM (#5549981)
Then they allowed females to play youth sports.


Yet they still haven't let men play in the WNBA. Go figure.


I read that as "they still haven't let ME play in the WNBA", and crafted my initial response based on that errant reading. Had you wrote what I thought you wrote, it would have been appropriate. But since it wasn't, it's merely a non-sequitur and a gratuitious insult and I appologize.

Still not an ad hominem, but it was wrong.
   1445. BDC Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:06 AM (#5551078)
anyone who buys it should know that something could go wrong at any time

Yes, I agree with Booey. I wonder if "There is an issue" might mean that somebody's middle initial was wrong on the title or something like that – that sounds more likely than having technological qualms about a 2001 car with 250K miles.
   1446. PepTech Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:07 AM (#5551080)
Is this how economics works? This reads like something SBB might write, except not enough polysyllabic words.
"The country — we took it over and owed over 20 trillion. As you know the last eight years, they borrowed more than it did in the whole history of our country. So they borrowed more than $10 trillion, right? And yet, we picked up 5.2 trillion just in the stock market.

Possibly picked up the whole thing in terms of the first nine months, in terms of value. So you could say, in one sense, we’re really increasing values. And maybe in a sense we’re reducing debt. But we’re very honored by it. And we’re very, very happy with what’s happening on Wall Street."
I can see it now. "Just because he was talking about the national debt for the previous five sentences doesn't mean "reducing debt" was referring to the national debt - he meant that individual stockholders who increased their portfolios have less debt now. In a sense. Sane people understand this. TDS."
   1447. Chicago Joe Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:07 AM (#5551081)

What are my responsibilities here? If, I don't know, the head gasket blew on their way home (I don't know, I'm making that up as an example) is it on me to make amends or rescind the sale? Legally, ethically... just curious as to the collected wisdom here. TIA.


Considering it's a 2001, they can't have given you more that a few hundred dollars, right? He's a mechanic, so he could probably part it out or scrap it. At 250k miles, I'd say it's caveat emptor territory at that point.

Coke to Booey.
   1448. PreservedFish Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:11 AM (#5551086)
I mean, I'd be pissed if I bought a car, even with 250k miles, that had a problem I discovered the next day. Because as far as I'm concerned, the seller knew and was trying to pull a fast one.
   1449. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:11 AM (#5551087)
So I may need some advice, don't really know yet. I sold a car yesterday. It's 2001, has over 250K miles. Offered it for $500 under blue book and took a couple hundred less than that. The guy came and drove it around, asked about some issues, I answered to the best of my ability. It's at the point where time suggests some stuff is going to happen to it, but he said he was a mechanic and could work on it. We completed the bill of sale and off he went.

I got a VM overnight (wasn't answering the phone) saying "there is an issue". I've reached back out but haven't heard yet.

What are my responsibilities here? If, I don't know, the head gasket blew on their way home (I don't know, I'm making that up as an example) is it on me to make amends or rescind the sale? Legally, ethically... just curious as to the collected wisdom here. TIA.


On the ethics side - never mind the over/under bluebook - my opinion would be based on what the actual sale price was. I.e., just to arbitrarily draw the line at $2k -- if it was under 2K, my opinion would be "what do you expect?"

I've been on both ends of the 'cheap buys' - and I think it's buyer beware, so long as nothing is deliberately hidden.

About 15 years ago - in need of transportation - I bought a shitty Ford Escort for $500.... it has some serious electrical problems (the power windows didn't work, other issues) that I fixed (myself to some extent - had to involve a mechanic to do some rewiring that was ultimately the problem). But it was 500 dollars... I knew what I was getting - something I hoped to milk about ~6 months out. When I bought something better - I sold it for $600 (in addition to the electrical work, I had also put new brakes and 'new' - as in used, but not bald. The party that bought it also brought a mechanic along - and he pointed out that the head gaskets looked a bit leaky (they were). In any case, I just fell back on the "what do you expect for $600?".

The plentiful lawyers can speak to the legal matters, but ethically? So long as you didn't hide or lie.... it's a used car, 15+ years old, with 200K+ miles.... It's reasonable to expect that you're not getting a new car that's going to run relatively trouble free for 1-2-3 years.
   1450. Morty Causa Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:12 AM (#5551090)
Yes, but nobody even gets my Barbara Stanwyck trollery. They just respond with another top ten list of Barbara Stanwyck movies.


I was wondering what you were onto with that.


Must have escaped me, yes. Where and what was this trollery you speak of?
   1451. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:13 AM (#5551092)
In any case...

Am I correct in believing that an NDA could not be enforced if it is basically an agreement not to discuss an actual crime that one party to the NDA perpetrated on another? I'm sure (? should I be?) you can't draft an NDA that says "Rose M agrees not to discuss Harvey W's sexual assault of Rose M" - right? It would have to use vague language, right? And if it has to use vague language, how exactly do you even formulate it in a way that isn't meaningless?

I guess my basic legal question - you can't really create a binding legal document preventing someone from talking about an actual crime, can you? Please tell me the answer to that is no...


The simplified answer is yes but.

Something happens between A and B. In fact, what A did to B may be or even is a crime. A can say to B, "If you never speak of this again, I'll pay you X." The two parties can sign an NDA to cover that. The NDA won't say - because A's lawyer is presumably conscious when drafting the document - "A sexually assaulted B." The NDA will say, "B agrees never to discuss the incident in question again, and in exchange for that A is giving B $100,000."

And then if B does discuss it again then B has to return the money.

Now, no, of course nobody can prevent someone from reporting a crime to the authorities. So such an agreement would be void.
   1452. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:13 AM (#5551094)
I don't think SBB is a troll, so I don't think any of #1375 applies.

You're either using a wrong definition of troll or you haven't actually read any of his posts. (Maybe you should announce, Andylike, whether he's on ignore.)


The notion that SBB is a troll is bizarre. It's just used as a way to discredit him before he speaks. Which is why they/you call him a fake lawyer.

   1453. Booey Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:15 AM (#5551096)
I wonder if "There is an issue" might mean that somebody's middle initial was wrong on the title or something like that – that sounds more likely than having technological qualms about a 2001 car with 250K miles.


Yeah, I'd definitely get a hold of them and find out what the issue is (and it sounds like you've tried). But if it's a mechanical problem...well, that's why you sold it for cheap. If it was dealership quality you would have sold it for a dealership price. If they chose to buy from a private seller rather than a dealership to save money, they did so knowing that there was no warranty or quality guarantees. That's the gamble, and it's 100% on them, IMO.

Edit: Now if a seller deliberately DID hide some important information, then yes, it's at least partially their responsibility ethically. Not sure about the legal aspect of it.
   1454. PepTech Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:16 AM (#5551098)
MM, Booey, et al - thanks - that's what I was thinking, but it's nice to know there's some consensus. I mean, that's why I was selling in the first place, and I told the guy that - "it's at that point where stuff starts to happen, and I'm glad you're a mechanic so you can deal with them". I would feel bad if the water pump (or whatever) blew on their way home, but not bad enough to give them their money back. Unless there's some 24-hour clause I just didn't know about or something.

ETA: The car has always run fine for me, and I don't *know* of any problems. The last time I took it to the dealer they said it would need new valves "soon", but my mechanic brother-in-law said they could wait. The check engine light was on, the guy asked about the codes, and I truthfully answered that it came out as "possible cylinder misfire", and he said that made sense w/r/t the popping he had heard on the test drive. He talked me down another $100 and completed the sale (under $1500 total).
   1455. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:16 AM (#5551099)
Yet some of us are repeatedly defamed as rape apologists and are still able to engage.


No defamation. You are a rape apologist. You became one the moment you minimized a vicious gang rape by calling it "drunken date fingering." If that is not apologizing for rape, nothing is. Not saying you apologize for all rape, but you suck one ####...
   1456. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:17 AM (#5551100)
1428

it's going to look more ridiculous than the leisure suit looks now.


Now where the devil is that pet rock...?

This entire era is either going to be the stuff of high tragedy if the Decline continues apace, or high comedy if somehow things get back on the track of actual sane progress. It's just an absurd time in history and will, beyond any question, be seen as such 50, 100, and 200 years from now.


If there's anyone around -- or an Earth that's inhabitable -- by then to care.
   1457. Morty Causa Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:18 AM (#5551102)
Gotta tell you the truth, I only just barely know who Barbara Stanwyck is.

To know Stanwyck, you have to be a classic movie buff. And if you're not a classic movie buff, you don't know movies--you're just a consumer, perhaps a discriminating one.

(Now, that's camouflaged trolling.)
   1458. The Good Face Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:18 AM (#5551103)
How much free time do you have that you're negotiating the sale of a 16 year old beater with 250k miles on it? Just donate the heap to charity and take the tax write off. As a bonus you won't have some bozo chasing you around claiming you cheated him.
   1459. Lassus Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:19 AM (#5551105)
Legally, ethically... just curious as to the collected wisdom here. TIA.

I would find out the issue first, but... Philosophically I would subjectively differ a bit from everyone here so far as far as practice vs. theory. If within 5 hours of buying it, he realized something broke or wasn't as he thought and asked if he could give it back, if it was me, I would consider myself a massive dick if I gave him the ol' "SOL LOL MY FREN!" It's not like a week went by, and whatever hundreds of bucks (How much? Man, people are so weird about money.) I got out of it wouldn't make it worth the I'M IN THE CLEAR HERE HIS PROBLEM NOW justification. Sure, you're ethically OK not to, but I couldn't really do that. Y(and everyone else's)MMV.
   1460. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:20 AM (#5551106)
Gotta tell you the truth, I only just barely know who Barbara Stanwyck is.


Was.

Think "Me and my family."
   1461. Morty Causa Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:21 AM (#5551108)
The notion that SBB is a troll is bizarre. It's just used as a way to discredit him before he speaks. Which is why they/you call him a fake lawyer.


I totally agree. It's cheap and puerile. Just horse ####. People here just engage in character assassination (it isn't even respectable ad hominem) so as to not deal with the substance of issues they don't want to deal with. And I'm sure they think they're just being smart and superior.
   1462. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:22 AM (#5551109)
If that is not apologizing for rape, nothing is.


Here's a hint: It's not.(*)

The thoughtfulness in your post ... I mean, I'm just overwhelmed with the sentiment. Thank you so much.

(*) And yet, surprisingly, there are still things that would in fact be apologizing for rape. Let's see. How about: "The girl was asking for it, getting all drunk like that and getting in the car with those boys." So, in fact, while what I said isn't in the same galaxy as "apologizing for rape," the thing I just wrote that someone could say -- and which we can rest assured somebody somewhere has said -- would be apologizing for rape.
   1463. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:22 AM (#5551112)
I mean, I'd be pissed if I bought a car, even with 250k miles, that had a problem I discovered the next day. Because as far as I'm concerned, the seller knew and was trying to pull a fast one.


At 250K miles - the clock is ticking on virtually EVERYTHING.

I think at that mileage - you have to have reasonable expectations... i.e., I would say that there are two main things to care about: does the transmission seem more or less sound? This can be hard to judge - you really need to test drive in a situation that allows you to run through several gears (i.e., ideally, I'd want to get onto a highway), but at least at the superficial level - does it shift gears without hanging or otherwise seem to 'slip' or feel like it's having trouble changing gears... and the engine. As noted above - you can kind of see this by looking at the engine directly, especially while running (i.e., look for oily residue by the pistons; while running - look for smoke/vapor/whatever at the same place). It should also go without saying that if the exhaust smokes/is black - the engine is near the end. Another good way to check is to simply run your finger over the inside of the tailpipe - high mileage, you'd (of course) expect some rust/dirt/etc.... but is the dust/rust/whatever oily. If so - there's certainly at minimum a leaky piston. This would be a judgment call - depending on exhaust/etc - but it means you're likely to have a limited run before it's garbage.
   1464. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:23 AM (#5551113)
I still think it is difficult to categorize a poster as a Troll, I think looking at posts (or series of posts) and deciding they are Trolling or not is possible though.
Why Morty's "everyone should be anonymous" idea wouldn't work even if people wanted to implement it: the second I read this, I said, "That's a quintessential BM comment."
   1465. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:23 AM (#5551114)
How much free time do you have that you're negotiating the sale of a 16 year old beater with 250k miles on it? Just donate the heap to charity and take the tax write off.


1-877-Kars For Kids
K-A-R-S Kars For Kids
1-877-Kars For Kids
Donate Your Car Today
   1466. Lassus Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:24 AM (#5551115)
the second I read this, I said, "That's a quintessential BM comment."

I have bad news for you - this works with your posts, too.
   1467. DavidFoss Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:25 AM (#5551116)
So twitter has suspended Rose McGowan.... I am at a complete loss as why.

No one knows for sure because twitter does not discuss these things but reports are that she posted an image of an old email and forgot to black out key personal information in the email header (addresses, phone numbers, etc). Sounds like a technicality -- she had a lot of things to say but I don't think 'doxxing' was her intent.
   1468. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:25 AM (#5551117)
So I may need some advice, don't really know yet. I sold a car yesterday. It's 2001, has over 250K miles. Offered it for $500 under blue book and took a couple hundred less than that. The guy came and drove it around, asked about some issues, I answered to the best of my ability. It's at the point where time suggests some stuff is going to happen to it, but he said he was a mechanic and could work on it. We completed the bill of sale and off he went.

I got a VM overnight (wasn't answering the phone) saying "there is an issue". I've reached back out but haven't heard yet.

What are my responsibilities here? If, I don't know, the head gasket blew on their way home (I don't know, I'm making that up as an example) is it on me to make amends or rescind the sale? Legally, ethically... just curious as to the collected wisdom here. TIA.


It's not worth it to try to sell such a car. Someone who is desperate enough to buy it isn't worth the hassle of doing business with.

As you're about to find out.
   1469. PreservedFish Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:26 AM (#5551121)
I do not mind being a discriminating consumer.
   1470. PepTech Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:26 AM (#5551122)
I would find out the issue first, but... Philosophically I would subjectively differ a bit from everyone here so far as far as practice vs. theory. If within 5 hours of buying it, he realized something broke or wasn't as he thought and asked if he could give it back, if it was me, I would consider myself a massive dick if I gave him the ol' "SOL LOL MY FREN!"
Lassus, that's exactly what's in the back of my mind. Complication: It's actually my wife's car, her name solo on the title. She's more of the SOL MY FREN! mentality than I am...
   1471. PreservedFish Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:26 AM (#5551123)
Someone who is desperate enough to buy it isn't worth the hassle of doing business with.


This might be very wise advice.
   1472. Lassus Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:28 AM (#5551126)
This might be very wise advice.

I suppose. A bit unfair to the desperate, however.
   1473. The Good Face Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:30 AM (#5551127)
It's not worth it to try to sell such a car. Someone who is desperate enough to buy it isn't worth the hassle of doing business with.

As you're about to find out.


Bingo.
   1474. PreservedFish Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:31 AM (#5551128)
A bit unfair to the desperate, however.


Well, it's not nice, but it might be accurate.
   1475. Traderdave Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:31 AM (#5551129)
Several years ago I sold a 15 year old car to a guy on Craig's list. The car had less than 50,000 miles and blue booked at about $3000 or so because of the low miles. I listed it for $1500 because it was so obviously a POS.

I met him on a Sunday morning at my office where he proceeded to take it on a 3 hour test drive and then peppered me with about 90 minutes of questions, during which time he proved himself a lunatic. He offered $1000 in cash & I accepted.

Fast forward about 6 months: he shows up at my office at about 6AM demanding his money back because of a long laundry list of things he said I had concealed or lied about. He left by threatening me with words along lines of "Don't #### with me, I know people in this town."

Some time later (I forget exactly when) I get served to small claims court. At the trial he goes on for some time about rust and other damage on underside of car, and produces a receipt found in the glove box from a gas station in Ohio, where I had previously lived before CA. It was the center of his claim: that I had concealed the car's exposure to winter road salt, which had caused the car to rust out.

He had some other complaints as well that I don't remember exactly but the judge cut him off. My testimony was less than 60 seconds: I showed printout of state law that used cars sell as-is unless written warranty and advice from consumer affairs website advising professional mechanic exam before purchase.

I left the court and drove 5 minutes back to my office. I immediately looked at the small claims website (can't recall why). The decision in my favor was already posted.

That is my used car war story.


Edit: Ray is right, not worth selling. (Jeez, I never thought I'd type those words)
   1476. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:32 AM (#5551133)
That is my used car war story.


That's what you get for selling your car to a fake lawyer.
   1477. Booey Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:34 AM (#5551137)
I would find out the issue first, but... Philosophically I would subjectively differ a bit from everyone here so far as far as practice vs. theory. If within 5 hours of buying it, he realized something broke or wasn't as he thought and asked if he could give it back, if it was me, I would consider myself a massive dick if I gave him the ol' "SOL LOL MY FREN!" It's not like a week went by, and whatever hundreds of bucks (How much? Man, people are so weird about money.) I got out of it wouldn't make it worth the I'M IN THE CLEAR HERE HIS PROBLEM NOW justification. Sure, you're ethically OK not to, but I couldn't really do that. Y(and everyone else's)MMV.


I get this, but if this actually happened with a car I just sold, I'd probably think the buyer was trying to rip ME off. Either he went and tried something stupid with it and broke something (racing, off-roading, etc), or (more likely) he was just having buyers remorse and regretting his decision (which shouldn't be my problem). The odds that something that never went wrong for me or for him when he test drove it but that happened to break the very day after he bought it seems a little too convenient, no? Yes, stuff can happen with old cars at any random time. But the next day? I'd guess buyers remorse is the most likely answer.

In my experience, when people are buying online they usually look at a lot of similar options. The guy probably just found a slightly better car that he'd rather have instead.
   1478. Traderdave Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:39 AM (#5551141)
Donating a car used to be an easy writeoff, esp for a clunker. You could easily claim the Blue Book and be done.

But the IRS got wise to people writing off jalopies like Cadillacs. Now you have to wait for the charity to sell it and get a report on the actual sale price. These things are usually sold dirt cheap at auction, substantially reducing the tax value of the charitable donation. it's hardly worth doing any more. If the car is decent enough to get a good price, you're far better off going that route.
   1479. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:42 AM (#5551144)
After my dad passed away my sister tried to help my mom sell some of the furniture. My sister sold some bedroom set for $400. Couple days later the buyer leaves her a voice mail swearing up and down, screaming. My sister calls him back. He's over the moon about some issue that they had already discussed prior to the sale, and he's threatening to sue her and to ruin her name on whatever internet boards exist for this type of thing. He sounded unstable.

Her next move was to immediately give him back his $400 and let him keep the bedroom set, so that they could both go on their way. She just wanted to make the problem go away, and was in zero mood to deal with him further.

That's who you're often running into, with this stuff.
   1480. Lassus Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:45 AM (#5551147)
Edit: Ray is right, not worth selling.

Man, you guys really live in a dystopia.
   1481. Nasty Nate Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:45 AM (#5551148)
I've twice sold crappy cars that failed inspection for less than $1000 via craigslist with no issues besides one guy successfully negotiating further when he saw the car in person.
   1482. Spahn Insane, stimulus-funded BurlyMan™ Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:46 AM (#5551149)
You actually think I wrote that myself? I'll have you know that's a famous quote from classic cinema.

"From Dusk Til Dawn" is a shite film, but the quoted portion (delivered by Cheech Marin) is in fact pretty hysterical.
   1483. The Good Face Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:48 AM (#5551152)
Edit: Ray is right, not worth selling.

Man, you guys really live in a dystopia.


If something is going to require time/effort AND a non-trivial chance of having to deal with a crazy person, why bother if you don't really need the money?
   1484. strong silence Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:51 AM (#5551155)
When comparing actors/actresses across eras, is it proper to adjust for changes in technology? I'm thinking that modern movies have close ups, which means actors have to be better because the camera captures more right?

I know very little about movies but the nuances of this debate of GOAT actors seems similar to debates about baseball players.

   1485. Traderdave Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:51 AM (#5551156)
Man, you guys really live in a dystopia


Dude, a guy came back to me 6 fukkin months later to sue over a $1000 car. Enjoy the last time I will ever type this phrase: Ray is right. Not worth it. In retrospect I should have just given it to my cleaning lady's son, who is a mechanic and loves that sort of project.
   1486. The Good Face Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:54 AM (#5551159)
"From Dusk Til Dawn" is a shite film, but the quoted portion (delivered by Cheech Marin) is in fact pretty hysterical.


There were a handful of mid 90s movies that were preposterously ridiculous and cheesy, but also jam packed with A-list talent for some unfathomable reason. "From Dusk til Dawn" is a good example, while "The Quick and the Dead" is perhaps an Inner Circle HOF member of such movies.
   1487. PepTech Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:56 AM (#5551163)
The time/effort was an ad posted to Craigslist, maybe 30 minutes of emails and texts corresponding with people, five minutes to send the guy on a test drive, ten minutes to complete a bill of sale. Some guy on a budget gets a car without hassling with a dealer, and my wife gets some mad money.

Probably 90%+ of the time, it works out great for everyone involved. There are quite a number of people who can't lease a new BMW every other year - undoubtedly because they simply don't have the proper work ethic.
   1488. Nose army. Beef diaper? (CoB) Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:57 AM (#5551165)
1-877-Kars For Kids
K-A-R-S Kars For Kids
1-877-Kars For Kids
Donate Your Car Today


I'd donate my car to ISIS before I'd give it to those ear-worming bastards.

They should have their children taken away ...
   1489. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:57 AM (#5551166)
Trump now claiming the stock market rise since he took office has wiped out the national debt. He said this in an "interview" with Sean Hannity. A real interviewer would have asked him to explain exactly how that works, but Hannity just praised him for that good news.
   1490. Lassus Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:58 AM (#5551167)
We're now going to demand updates, Tech.
   1491. Greg K Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:58 AM (#5551169)
Her next move was to immediately give him back his $400 and let him keep the bedroom set, so that they could both go on their way. She just wanted to make the problem go away, and was in zero mood to deal with him further.

That's who you're often running into, with this stuff.

My friend's ex-wife (or...maybe still wife. I don't think they ever got divorced, but she's been gone for years) used to be one of those people you'd run into.

One of her points of pride was that she could get out of paying for all sorts of things if you just called people and yelled long enough that they figured you weren't worth the hassle.
   1492. Lassus Posted: October 12, 2017 at 12:01 PM (#5551172)
Ray is right. Not worth it.

- shrug -

Was for NastyNate. Twice.

In your case, didn't you say the guy rather blatantly outed himself as a lunatic before you actually sold him the car? At that point, I'd agree, not worth it. But not by default across the board.

Again, your mileage did obviously vary, I baked that in. I think that's the exception and not the rule, but that's just been my experience.
   1493. PepTech Posted: October 12, 2017 at 12:04 PM (#5551174)
1-877-Kars For Kids
I don't know why, but those commercials absolutely infuriate me. If I hear it on the radio, I switch channels. For all I know they are fine people, but that spot is the nails on my blackboard (which, oddly, has never bothered me a bit).
   1494. Booey Posted: October 12, 2017 at 12:08 PM (#5551176)
When you're living paycheck to paycheck, $1000 - or hell, even a couple hundred - is absolutely worth the hassle of selling something online. I've sold dozens of things online, and granted, one experience like Traderdave's or Ray's sisters' might change my opinion, but the odds of dealing with a loon doesn't really seem to be that high, IMO. I've never had any issues like that (only flakes...lots and lots of flakes that say they'll come at a certain time and never show).
   1495. Traderdave Posted: October 12, 2017 at 12:09 PM (#5551178)
In your case, didn't you say the guy rather blatantly outed himself as a lunatic before you actually sold him the car? At that point, I'd agree, not worth it. But not by default across the board. Again, your mileage did obviously vary, I baked that in.


It was obvious he was crazy, but he didn't seem stupid or vindictive.


There's actually more crazy to the story but it would be too many keystrokes.

But I was hungover as hell on a Sunday morning sitting in my office, very glad I met him there instead of home, listening to him drone on about how he's trying to build a sustainable community with electric bikes & that's why he needed my ancient Subaru with a check engine light on. He offered 10 C notes and I took it.

Lesson learned.
   1496. zenbitz Posted: October 12, 2017 at 12:09 PM (#5551179)
If SBB is not a troll, the word has no meaning.

He constantly posts absurd "devil's advocate" (fake advocate??) for the sole purpose of getting you rubes to argue with him.
   1497. Omineca Greg Posted: October 12, 2017 at 12:09 PM (#5551180)
My friend's ex-wife (or...maybe still wife. I don't think they ever got divorced, but she's been gone for years) used to be one of those people you'd run into.

One of her points of pride was that she could get out of paying for all sorts of things if you just called people and yelled long enough that they figured you weren't worth the hassle.

That might play a role in why he's dragging his feet on the divorce.
   1498. dlf Posted: October 12, 2017 at 12:12 PM (#5551183)
When you're living paycheck to paycheck, $1000 - or hell, even a couple hundred - is absolutely worth the hassle of selling something online.


I know nothing of Pep's personal situation, but I would opine that if you are living paycheck to paycheck, hanging out here and debating politics or Barbara Stanwyck films may not be the wisest use of one's time. Since Pep doesn't seem as crazy as some of the posters here (we've got to be a little crazy just to hang out here) I'm guessing this is a little folding money, not a truly significant sum.
   1499. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 12, 2017 at 12:15 PM (#5551186)
1-877-Kars For Kids
K-A-R-S Kars For Kids
1-877-Kars For Kids
Donate Your Car Today

I'd donate my car to ISIS before I'd give it to those ear-worming bastards.

They should have their children taken away ...


This is the one commercial I actively turn off or mute. It's as irritating as could be. The music, the kids dancing and jamming... the song is horrible and grating.

And the message itself makes no sense. "Cars 4 kids." But kids can't drive by definition, so it's annoying. I get that they're claiming to donate the proceeds to go to help kids. The entire branding is just annoying.
   1500. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 12, 2017 at 12:16 PM (#5551189)
One of her points of pride was that she could get out of paying for all sorts of things if you just called people and yelled long enough that they figured you weren't worth the hassle.


This is definitely part of it. But whether they're actually crazy or just jackasses who are pretending to be crazy, your life is miserable just the same.

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