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Thursday, April 03, 2014

OTP April 2014: BurstNET Sued for Not Making Equipment Lease Payments

Rickey!'s people were colonized by wankers Posted: April 03, 2014 at 01:59 PM | 4718 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: 7 million aca signees and counting, i-95 south, nc, politics

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   2301. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:19 PM (#4692463)
Then you disagree with Israel existing as a Jewish state, right? What's being missed there?


If Jewish State means what YOU define "Jewish State" to mean than yes.

If it means a state that's Jewish because culturally/ethnically the overwhelming majority living there are Jewish, well I'm fine with that, and given Jewish history the past 2000 years, obviously they need some such thing.
   2302. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:19 PM (#4692465)
You are not a paranoid loon, apparently. There seem to be a few paranoid loons around, though. I am not now, nor have I ever been antisemitic, and if people think my arguments are antisemitic, they need to get out of their bunker and engage reality a little more.


Good to know that with your privilege, you get to determine when you're a bigot. The folks you're prejudiced against think you're a bigot, and that's what counts. Maybe you'll tell us some of your best friends are Israelis, or that you personally are fine with the Israelis but wouldn't want them in your country.
   2303. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:23 PM (#4692472)
The folks you're prejudiced against think you're a bigot, and that's what counts


This can cut many many many ways.


   2304. Rickey!'s people were colonized by wankers Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:23 PM (#4692474)
That's not exactly it. You can certainly disagree with Israel's statecraft and temporal policies without being remotely anti-Semitic. But you can't disagree with Israel's essence in certain terms without being anti-Semitic.


And I do the latter. This is not open for debate. If you think I'm antisemitic, you're paranoid and wrong.
   2305. Publius Publicola Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:24 PM (#4692477)
Can somebody tell me what "the hard left" is? What elements of today's American society would you assign that label? I'm genuinely curious.
   2306. Rickey!'s people were colonized by wankers Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:24 PM (#4692478)
The folks you're prejudiced against think you're a bigot, and that's what counts.


Then I'm sure you'll have no problem leaving the question of Israel's morality in the question of Palestinians solely up to the Palestinians.
   2307. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:26 PM (#4692479)
This can cut many many many ways.


Well, duh. I just happen to be of the belief that everyone is a bigot and rather than pretend to stamp out bigotry, its better to acknowledge it and work from there. I think Sam's thinking on Israel is delightfully (and for him, unusually) blurry because he can't bring himself to admit his own bigotry. so he has to work up this contorted logic about it being some sort of neo-fascist state. I'm certainly excruciatingly aware that I'm bigoted towards the other, and I'm extremely suspicious of anyone who represents that they are not.
   2308. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:27 PM (#4692483)
Then I'm sure you'll have no problem leaving the question of Israel's morality in the question of Palestinians solely up to the Palestinians.


When have I ever suggested that Israelis aren't generally bigoted towards the Palestinians? They so obviously are. My point is that EVERYONE is bigoted so that the Israelis are not unusual, and the focus on the Israelis for a universal trait/behavior evidences anti-semitism.
   2309. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:28 PM (#4692486)
Can somebody tell me what "the hard left" is?


A pretty good song by Gary Clail & Tackhead?
   2310. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:29 PM (#4692488)
Can somebody tell me what "the hard left" is? What elements of today's American society would you assign that label? I'm genuinely curious.


I recommend Andrew Sullivan's writings on it.
   2311. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:30 PM (#4692490)
I'm sorry, but I've always worked on the generally accepted theory that the hard left was Communist authoritarianism, which is certainly violent and in many cases antisemitic, but is historically understood to be distinct from fascism. But there is an element of the flat circle in that, I admit. Follow the Stalinists far enough "left" and you will find yourself marching in perfect time with the fascist hard right.

My long gone Commie aunt gave me the best example of that I've ever seen, in her own words. On the morning of June 22, 1941, she and a group of fellow travelers were picketing the White House in support of non-intervention, with their signs all reading "The Yanks are NOT coming". Just another day in the life of the Hitler-Stalin Pact.

But then---again, by her own account, repeated with a big smile---when the news filtered in that the Germans had invaded the USSR, she and her friends just took out their markers, crossed out the "NOT", and kept right on marching without skipping a beat!
   2312. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:31 PM (#4692493)
Well, duh. I just happen to be of the belief that everyone is a bigot and rather than pretend to stamp out bigotry, its better to acknowledge it and work from there.


fair enough
   2313. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:31 PM (#4692494)
And I do the latter.

I think you mean the former there, but that isn't what you do. You disagree wholeheartedly with Israel's essence and premises, often in extremely loaded language.
   2314. The Good Face Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:32 PM (#4692499)
Still waiting for you to provide some scientific evidence to support YOUR conclusions. I have a feeling I'm going to be waiting a long, long time.

Man, this isn't hard: what is the biological definition of race? Is that definition used consistently across all the studies that you're claiming provide "the data" for your position? This is the core of the constructivist objection.


Apparently I was right, I'm not getting any evidentiary support from you anytime soon. I've already played the whole "Hurr, there is no biological basis for race" game and exhaustively documented how wrong that statement is. You can go look up that thread, or better yet, support YOUR claims with evidence.

Race is a technology: it's a thing humans invented to do things to people.


This is a good example of an "unknown unknown". You are quite literally ignorant of how ignorant you are. The world of science has tried this assertion and found it wanting. Repeatedly.

That's a cute way of phrasing "I'm not as clever at concealing my motives as I like to think I am".


Nobody's as clever as I think I am.

This is a passion for you in a way that it is for no one else on this site-- you inject it into everything you discuss.


Creating cognitive dissonance? Yeah, I must admit I really do enjoy it.
   2315. Rickey!'s people were colonized by wankers Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:33 PM (#4692501)
I recommend Andrew Sullivan's writings on it.


This is funny, as Sullivan is routinely slandered as an antisemite for the same reasons you lot are pissing yourselves in service to the TGF's trolling.
   2316. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:34 PM (#4692503)
When have I ever suggested that Israelis aren't generally bigoted towards the Palestinians? They so obviously are.

There's an inherent "bigotry" in the notion of a Jewish state specially privileging Jews.

That and a quarter used to be able to get you Friday's Washington Post.
   2317. Rickey!'s people were colonized by wankers Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:34 PM (#4692505)
My point is that EVERYONE is bigoted so that the Israelis are not unusual, and the focus on the Israelis for a universal trait/behavior evidences anti-semitism.


No one has argued or implied a "universal trait/behavior." This is, again, you being a paranoid loon.
   2318. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:35 PM (#4692506)
This is funny, as Sullivan is routinely slandered as an antisemite for the same reasons you lot are pissing yourselves in service to the TGF's trolling.

He's never described Israel's essence, character, and existence in anything remotely close to the terms you've used.
   2319. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:35 PM (#4692507)
This is funny, as Sullivan is routinely slandered as an antisemite for the same reasons you lot are pissing yourselves in service to the TGF's trolling.


It's almost as if I can respect someone's views in one area and disagree in another!? You mean people can be complex like that?
   2320. Rickey!'s people were colonized by wankers Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:39 PM (#4692516)
He's never described Israel's essence, character, and existence in anything remotely close to the terms you've used.


I've not actually "described Israel's essence, character, and existence." I've discussed the current Israeli government's policies and its alliance with the hard, proto-fascist right of their domestic "settler" movement. A good rule of thumb is, if you think I'm arguing anything to essence, you're wrong.
   2321. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:39 PM (#4692517)
No one has argued or implied a "universal trait/behavior." This is, again, you being a paranoid loon


You have repeatedly described the Israelis as bigoted toward the Palestinians, and used that to justify your view that the US should reduce/cease its support of Israel.

In reality, "the Israelis" aren't bigoted towards the Palestinians. SOME Israelis certainly are.

In reality, every single nation on Earth has an "other" that the majority of its people are bigoted towards. Even more so if that "other" wished for the nation to cease to exist and lobbed rockets at it every so often. Israel is completely ordinary in its bigotry, and it makes no more sense to cut off Israel than it does to cut off France or Japan (actually, Japan is way worse when it comes to the bigotry, if we're counting) or Australia (lovely race relations in that country) or ...
   2322. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:41 PM (#4692525)
I've not actually "described Israel's essence, character, and existence." I've discussed the current Israeli government's policies and its alliance with the hard, proto-fascist right of their domestic "settler" movement. A good rule of thumb is, if you think I'm arguing anything to essence, you're wrong.


Watch, ladies and gentleman, as he walks back what he has previously posted. Observe how he shades his rhetoric ever so slightly. This is a skilled debator; of this there can be no doubt.
   2323. Lassus Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:41 PM (#4692526)
Creating cognitive dissonance? Yeah, I must admit I really do enjoy it.

This actually made me choke on my hot chocolate, so you've certainly accomplished something.

(Yes, the weather here is still that terrible.)
   2324. Rickey!'s people were colonized by wankers Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:42 PM (#4692530)
Watch, ladies and gentleman, as he walks back what he has previously posted.


Your inability to follow basic arguments and reasoning does not require me to walk back things I've never said. But keep pissing yourself if you must. Maybe she thinks it's sexy or something.
   2325. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:43 PM (#4692531)


Your inability to follow basic arguments and reasoning does not require me to walk back things I've never said. But keep pissing yourself if you must. Maybe she thinks it's sexy or something.


Oh, Sam, you're better than petty name calling. What, the Jews got under your skin?
   2326. Rickey!'s people were colonized by wankers Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:44 PM (#4692532)
You have repeatedly described the Israelis as bigoted toward the Palestinians


No, I've described current Israeli policy as apartheid, which it is. Again, you confuse description of policy with description of people. You're apparently really dumb.
   2327. Rickey!'s people were colonized by wankers Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:44 PM (#4692534)
Oh, Sam, you're better than petty name calling.


When has this ever been the case? Seriously?
   2328. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:47 PM (#4692538)

No, I've described current Israeli policy as apartheid, which it is. Again, you confuse description of policy with description of people.


I confuse nothing. What was the point of your little link to the settler video?

Current Israeli policy is not apartheid because it is not based on a notion that Palestians are inferior to Jews. You again fail to acknowledge that Israel has a reason to exist as a Jewish state other than to slander it as an especially bigoted state. (That being said, there are many lessons for the Israelis to learn by looking at South Africa; however, they don't need a bigot like you to teach it to them.)
   2329. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:49 PM (#4692541)
I've discussed the current Israeli government's policies and its alliance with the hard, proto-fascist right of their domestic "settler" movement. A good rule of thumb is, if you think I'm arguing anything to essence, you're wrong.

All that can be done here is to repeat your words from not long ago, which have nothing to do with government policies and everything to do with your perceptions of the essence (indeed the very essence) of a Jewish state:

"Judaism is a bit of an odd-duck when it comes to world religions and cultures, but you can't have it both ways. Either it's really important for Israel to be a "Jewish state" -which is nationalist and theocratic in nature - or it is not. If you'd prefer to use the old standard National Front talking point of "England for the English" instead of "theocracy" as the analogy, I'm fine with that, as it's really a split decision of theocratic identity and rank proto-fascist nationalism."

It's not Netanyahu, but "Judaism" that's the "odd-duck," and it's not Likud's state, but the "Jewish state," that is "nationalist and theocratic in nature" and the infamous mix of "theocratic identity and rank proto-fascist nationalism."

That's all essence and nothing but essence.

   2330. Rickey!'s people were colonized by wankers Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:50 PM (#4692544)
What was the point of your little link to the settler video?


1. I didn't link to anything.

2. I said Israel was in some ways a theocracy, David said "no it's not," I said "okay, if you want to describe it as hyper-nationalist and proto-fascistic instead, fine," at which point you #### your pants over the idea that there could be a such thing as Jewish fascism. At that point, I suggested you go look at the settle video(s) to see that, yes, Jewish fascism exists in both theory and reality.
   2331. Rickey!'s people were colonized by wankers Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:51 PM (#4692546)
It's not Netanyahu, but "Judiasm" that's the "odd-duck," and it's not Likud's state, but the "Jewish state," that is "nationalist and theocratic in nature" and the infamous mix of "theocratic identity and rank proto-fascist nationalism."


You're the one insisting on a "Jewish state," Nelson. I was responding to your terms. Good lord.
   2332. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:52 PM (#4692549)

at which point you #### your pants over the idea that there could be a such thing as Jewish fascism. At that point, I suggested you go look at the settle video(s) to see that, yes, Jewish fascism exists in both theory and reality.


This is, of course, bullshit. You called ISRAEL a proto-fascist state. Not individual Jews. Keep ####### that chicken, Sam. I'm done arguing with a dishonest debator. At least own up to your prejudice.
   2333. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 23, 2014 at 05:55 PM (#4692552)
You're the one insisting on a "Jewish state," Nelson. I was responding to your terms. Good lord.

Exactly. I "insisted" on a Jewish state and you described said Jewish state as proto-fascist. What were you talking about other than the essence and character of Israel, the Jewish state?

The Jewish state of Israel is, you believe (if your words are to be believed), proto-fascist.

No gotchas intended here, floor is free for any amendments you want to offer.
   2334. Rickey!'s people were colonized by wankers Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:00 PM (#4692557)
Exactly. I "insisted" on a Jewish state and you described said Jewish state as proto-fascist. What were you talking about other than the essence and character of Israel, the Jewish state?

The Jewish state of Israel is, you believe (if you're words are to be believed), proto-fascist.


I described Israel as a theocracy. David took issue with that, and I gave ground noting that Judaism is both a religion and a national cultural identity. Regardless, the idea of a state that must be theocratic or nationally aligned to a particular ethnicity or religion is proto-fascist, as I've detailed in my definition of fascism as hyper nationalism with religious overtones.

Israel does not have to be fascist, of course. It's current government aligns with moderate right wing parties and far right fascist elements to form a right wing majority, which tinges the current government with fascism. If Labor took over the government, that tinge would dissipate. This is nothing more than I do with regard to the Tea Party, hard-right Gooperism in the deep south, and the proto-fascist elements of the US. I have certainly not argued that Jews are fascist, as I've said numerous times. But you continue to conflate dissent with the current Israeli state as "antisemitism" as if Israel and "Jews" are identical entities. They are not.

To be clear: ALL ethnic nationalism is proto-fascist. Poland, if understood by the 18th century notion of a nation-state "for Poles" at the cost of any non-Polish, would be proto-fascist. My earlier example of British National Front/UKIP and the idea of "England for the English" is also proto-fascist.
   2335. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:21 PM (#4692571)
I have certainly not argued that Jews are fascist, as I've said numerous times.

But you have argued that there is such a thing as "Jewish fascism," in the same paragraph in which you compared that to other, multi-ethnic national fascisms.

Poland, if understood by the 18th century notion of a nation-state "for Poles" at the cost of any non-Polish, would be proto-fascist. My earlier example of British National Front/UKIP and the idea of "England for the English" is also proto-fascist.


Those are calls for ethnic unity and purity for their own sakes -- a feature almost always present and glorified in actual fascism, as opposed to Sam's kiddie version. Israel is no such thing and never has been and makes no such call.

   2336. zenbitz Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:26 PM (#4692574)
I think lots of people would have criticized bad policy towards the Ukraine or Russia written by a Ukrainian (or for that matter Russian-) American.

If a Chinese-American writes how Tibet is full of terrorists who must be suppressed and Tibet has "always" been a part of China and hence cannot have independence, then criticism of that policy suggestion is not Anti-Chinese (ethnic) but rather Anti-China (Political). Same with Cuba-Americans or Taiwanese-Americans or whatever.

In fact, it doesn't really matter WHO wrote the article, does it? If Kristol was a gentile, he's still be a moron.

And FWIW - I don't think there are any racists here here. There are some folks who are either trolling for shock or are somewhat insensitive to the feelings of the darker skinned.
   2337. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:30 PM (#4692578)
If Kristol was a gentile, he's still be a moron.

But he wouldn't be accused of "dual loyalty."

It's not the criticism, it's the criticism that he's putting the interests of another government -- that he's presumably more loyal to -- above his own.
   2338. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:31 PM (#4692580)
In some respects it is. Secular jews are noticing the trend toward theocracy with dismay and regret.
Actually, religious Jews are noticing the trend towards secularism with dismay and regret, from the loss of special privileges by the religious to the rejection by the courts of religious preferences such as sex-segregated transportation.
   2339. Mefisto Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:35 PM (#4692584)
religious Jews are noticing the trend towards secularism with dismay and regret, from the loss of special privileges by the religious to the rejection by the courts of religious preferences such as sex-segregated transportation.


In other news from 1964, white Americans are noticing the trend towards equality with dismay and regret, from the loss of special privileges by whites to the rejection by the courts of white preferences such as preferred seating in public transportation.
   2340. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:39 PM (#4692587)
In other news from 1964, white Americans are noticing the trend towards equality with dismay and regret, from the loss of special privileges by whites to the rejection by the courts of white preferences such as preferred seating in public transportation.

And in news from 1934, six million European Jews are still alive because they weren't murdered by actual fascists.
   2341. Rickey!'s people were colonized by wankers Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:41 PM (#4692589)
But you have argued that there is such a thing as "Jewish fascism," in the same paragraph in which you compared that to other, multi-ethnic national fascisms.


I'm not really following your usage of "multi-ethnic fascisms" here. Polish fascism would be a rabid national movement of ethnic Poles in the service of a "pure" Polish homeland. Spanish fascism was a movement by ethnic Spaniards for a "pure" ethnic Spanish state. Any movement that requires a "pure" Jewish state for Jews - where Jewishness is understood to be the religious-cultural identity associated with Judaism, would be by definition "Jewish fascism." If Billy-Bob Redneck runs around screaming about "America for Americans," that would be American fascism. (See also Texans.)

There exists an element of the current Jewish citizenry, described in shorthand as the "settler movement," who are rabidly nationalist and believe fundamentally in a "Greater Israel" that is a national homeland "for Jews only." That is, by definition, Jewish fascism. I'm not sure how this is controversial or difficult.

Those are calls for ethnic unity and purity for their own sakes. Israel is no such thing and never has been and makes no such call.


But there are Jewish factions who do (i.e. "settlers") and the current government aligns with those factions of the far right, "Jewish fascists," in order to form a majority right wing government.
   2342. Rickey!'s people were colonized by wankers Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:43 PM (#4692590)
But he wouldn't be accused of "dual loyalty."


If he were a dual citizen of both nations and actively advancing the interests of China against the interests of the US, he would.
   2343. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:50 PM (#4692602)
Any movement that requires a "pure" Jewish state for Jews - where Jewishness is understood to be the religious-cultural identity associated with Judaism, would be by definition "Jewish fascism."

No, it would not be. A mere quest for ethnic purity is not "fascism." And, honestly, only a fool would crudely apply whatever principle you're applying without considering the unique circumstances and necessities of Israel's founding and existence. The primary reason for Israel's existence is to be a safe haven for one ethnicity/religion. So obviously and self-evidently the members of that ethnicity/religion are going to have a different relationship to the state than non-members. It isn't just another country.


If he were a dual citizen of both nations and actively advancing the interests of China against the interests of the US, he would.


American Jews are not necessarily citizens of Israel. You're getting dangerously close to canard territory again.
   2344. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 06:59 PM (#4692609)
There exists an element of the current Jewish citizenry, described in shorthand as the "settler movement," who are rabidly nationalist and believe fundamentally in a "Greater Israel" that is a national homeland "for Jews only." That is, by definition, Jewish fascism. I'm not sure how this is controversial or difficult.
So, in other words, people who don't know anything about Israeli culture or politics use terms that don't make any sense to talk about people they know nothing about to ascribe views to them that they don't hold?
   2345. CrosbyBird Posted: April 23, 2014 at 07:02 PM (#4692612)
And that is why I do not know of a single Jew - liberal, conservative, ####### socialist or proto-fascist - who does not believe with absolute certainty that Israel must exist and it must be a Jewish state.

I go back and forth. As an atheist, the idea of any religiously-affiliated state makes me uncomfortable. As a Jew, I'm not completely ready to trust the rest of the world to make sure Jews have a safe place to go should their local government turn nasty.
   2346. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 23, 2014 at 07:10 PM (#4692616)
I go back and forth. As an atheist, the idea of any religiously-affiliated state makes me uncomfortable. As a Jew, I'm not completely ready to trust the rest of the world to make sure Jews have a safe place to go should their local government turn nasty.


I suspect your family was lucky enough to escape Europe before 1938. A couple of dozen butchered uncles and aunts tends to make clear the importance of Israel.
   2347. Publius Publicola Posted: April 23, 2014 at 07:11 PM (#4692617)
from the loss of special privileges by the religious to the rejection by the courts of religious preferences such as sex-segregated transportation.


So by admitting special privileges exist for the religious right that the religious "other" or the secular rest don't enjoy, you agree that in some respects the country is a theocracy.

Thank you.
   2348. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 23, 2014 at 07:25 PM (#4692622)
There exists an element of the current Jewish citizenry, described in shorthand as the "settler movement," who are rabidly nationalist and believe fundamentally in a "Greater Israel" that is a national homeland "for Jews only." That is, by definition, Jewish fascism. I'm not sure how this is controversial or difficult.

I've personally met some people who are rabidly pro-Israel and believe fundamentally in a "Greater Israel" that is a national homeland "for Jews only.

Those people I've met live in Brooklyn...

FWIW
   2349. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 23, 2014 at 08:12 PM (#4692656)
Inspirational Note of the Day, courtesy of my Inbox:

ALL HOPE IS LOST

Friends - -

This morning we alerted you that Karl Rove’s group, American Crossroads, brought in $5.2 million last month -- more than they raised all last year. And that’s just one outside group.

We did some digging to find out how much Republican outside groups have spent so far, and the numbers aren’t good:

In total, Republican outside spending against us is over 47 million dollars this year. We’re officially being outspent 2-1. That’s scary.

If we don’t hit our $175,000 goal by midnight tonight, then consider all hope of winning a Democratic majority in November lost.
   2350. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 08:13 PM (#4692661)
I go back and forth. As an atheist, the idea of any religiously-affiliated state makes me uncomfortable. As a Jew, I'm not completely ready to trust the rest of the world to make sure Jews have a safe place to go should their local government turn nasty.
As to your discomfort: again, Israel is secular. To be sure, there are some facets of the Israeli system that would flunk the 1st amendment - but, then, that's true of the UK with its established church, and Germany with its public funding of religious groups, too. On the whole, both the Israeli system and Israeli culture are secular in nature.
   2351. CrosbyBird Posted: April 23, 2014 at 08:16 PM (#4692668)
I suspect your family was lucky enough to escape Europe before 1938. A couple of dozen butchered uncles and aunts tends to make clear the importance of Israel.

Immediate family, no, but certainly some family. My four grandparents were all born in this country, but they certainly had cousins that were not so fortunate. I also happen to feel like America is generally a pretty good and safe place to be Jewish.

EDIT: I strongly suspect that more people are killed in Israel for being Jewish than are killed in America for the same reason.
   2352. zenbitz Posted: April 23, 2014 at 08:21 PM (#4692672)
I suspect your family was lucky enough to escape Europe before 1938. A couple of dozen butchered uncles and aunts tends to make clear the importance of Israel.


Mine wasn't. So i am free to critique the Israeli government, right?

I wouldn't accuse Kristol of dual loyalty. I agree that is probably not relevant and seems anti-Semitic. Maybe if he turned out to own a bunch of land in the West Bank he was trying to sell to "good Jews" you could accuse him of being self-serving
   2353. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 08:31 PM (#4692679)
On the whole, both the Israeli system and Israeli culture are secular in nature.


Israeli culture is secular in nature? Really?
   2354. CrosbyBird Posted: April 23, 2014 at 08:38 PM (#4692690)
As to your discomfort: again, Israel is secular.

There are degrees of secular. Israel is not a theocracy run by the Haredi, but it is a Jewish state and the context in which people define it (and within which it is self-defined), it is often as a Jewish refuge. The Law of Return is institutionalized, government-sanctioned religious discrimination.

I am not comfortable with the other examples you give in Europe. Basically, any protection less strong than our First Amendment makes me uncomfortable, and I even consider this country to offer far too many legal rights to religions. For example, I do not think there should be any religiously-based tax exemptions.

Bear in mind that I do not consider the United States to be an entirely secular government either.
   2355. tshipman Posted: April 23, 2014 at 08:41 PM (#4692695)
Well this is obviously true. The original sin, as it were, is Israel getting dropped in Palestine in 1948. I never had much time for Zionism. But here we are, and Israel has been there for 60-odd years. So what now?


What now is the same thing that has been obvious for the last 20 years: a two state solution with land swaps based on the 1967 borders.

Guess what is the biggest obstacle to that becoming a solution?
   2356. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 08:47 PM (#4692701)
If it means a state that's Jewish because culturally/ethnically the overwhelming majority living there are Jewish, well I'm fine with that, and given Jewish history the past 2000 years, obviously they need some such thing.

But given that history, and given that the population that would make Israel not a majority Jewish state, generally wishes death and expulsion on the Jews, you have to grant Israel the ability to make sure it remains majority Jewish.

To say Israel must allow demographics to make Israel majority Arab/Muslim, and to say they must grant those Arab Muslims full citizenship is effectively anti-semitic, because those things would lead to the death and /or expulsion of millions of Israeli Jews.

   2357. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 23, 2014 at 08:48 PM (#4692703)
For a guy who was awfully quick to lecture others about "code words" and "dog whistles", Sam seems oblivious to his own choice of language. No one made him lace his posts with references to "neocons" and "undue influence", while aping anti-Israel extremists use of the inappropriate apartheid comparison. And throwing the term "fascist" around so freely? If Sam doesn't want to be taken for an anti-Semite, he might try avoiding the language of anti-Semites.
   2358. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 08:49 PM (#4692704)
What now is the same thing that has been obvious for the last 20 years: a two state solution with land swaps based on the 1967 borders.

Guess what is the biggest obstacle to that becoming a solution?


The fact that the Palestinian leaders have no interest in actually governing a state? The fact that said leaders use the perpetual state-of-war against Israel to ensure their power, and ensure they aren't held to account for failing to better the lives of their people? The fact that the majority of Arab Muslims wish to destroy Israel and drive all the Jews into the sea?
   2359. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 23, 2014 at 08:53 PM (#4692707)
The Law of Return is institutionalized, government-sanctioned religious discrimination.

Without which, Israel makes virtually no conceptual sense.
   2360. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:02 PM (#4692715)
So by admitting special privileges exist for the religious right that the religious "other" or the secular rest don't enjoy, you agree that in some respects the country is a theocracy.
Well, no. You don't know what the word theocracy means. It means rule by the church or religious leaders, typically with religious doctrine being the law. The fact that the Haredi were exempt from mandatory military service does not mean that the Haredi ruled the country. It was just a privilege granted them, by a secular government, back when Israel was founded and they were a trivial percentage of the population.
   2361. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:03 PM (#4692716)
For a guy who was awfully quick to lecture others about "code words" and "dog whistles", Sam seems oblivious to his own choice of language. No one made him lace his posts with references to "neocons" and "undue influence", while aping anti-Israel extremists use of the inappropriate apartheid comparison. And throwing the term "fascist" around so freely? If Sam doesn't want to be taken for an anti-Semite, he might try avoiding the language of anti-Semites.

We're not quite in the genre's Xanadu of Campanis, "necessities," and digging to the point of cringe, but we're probably the closest we've been in my eight years on the board.

"Jewish fascism"?(*) The extant state of Israel -- the liberal, democratic, Jewish state -- as "proto-fascist"? Wow.

Al Campanis kept trying to explain, too.

(*) You'll note that it's not just that the settler fringe are "Jewish fascists," which would be silly but at least marginally understandable. No -- they're emblematic of "Jewish fascism," a construction positing a phenomenon both broader than the individual settlers and predating them. "Jewish fascists" are fascists who happen to be Jews; "Jewish fascism" is something far more sinister -- a form of identifiable fascism uniquely Jewish.
   2362. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:07 PM (#4692719)
Israeli culture is secular in nature? Really?
Really.
   2363. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:08 PM (#4692720)
I also happen to feel like America is generally a pretty good and safe place to be Jewish.


So did many of the Jews in Europe, pre-1930 or so, about their countries. You should see the house my father's family lived in in Lodz - it's still standing. It's huge and gorgeous. They had season tickets to the opera, nice cars, owned factories, did a little import-export on the side. They were fluent speakers of German and Polish.

10 years later, 10 of 13 brothers and sisters dead. Along with all of their children, and both their parents.

And that's happened again and again throughout the last 2000 years. I sure like it here, but I'm real glad Israel is around. And I've never even visted.
   2364. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:16 PM (#4692725)
America's clearly a solid No. 2 as a safe zone, but I wouldn't trust it a pinch either.(*) And of course, if it's as incorrigibly racist as Sam, et al., insist it is, they shouldn't either -- not that they think Jews warrant a safe haven anyway.

(*) "Pinch" being extremely narrowly defined, but anything short of 100% certainty is unacceptable.
   2365. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:24 PM (#4692729)
America's clearly a solid No. 2 as a safe zone, but I wouldn't trust it a pinch either.


Exactly. Say there's an existential crisis - some nutjob has nukes pointed at us and says he'll blow us into smithereens if the Jews aren't rounded up and handed over. Sam will sell us down the river so fast we wont even have time to finish cooking our bread. We've got dual loyalties, you see, so we're not "real" citizens. Besides, we're all neo-proto-crypto-fascists.
   2366. CrosbyBird Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:24 PM (#4692730)
Without which, Israel makes virtually no conceptual sense.

Which is, of course, the question we were discussing. I was responding to 'zop's idea that a Jewish state is essential.

I am an atheist but I have a strong Jewish cultural identity. I feel like that identity is very secure in the United States even though I don't like the religiosity of the country. On the other hand, my life experiences mostly in relatively limited sections of one country weighed against around two thousand years of persecution makes me uncomfortable saying that the threat to the Jewish people is officially old news.

The Jewish state, and more importantly, its location, are the source of a number of problems. I don't think the Israelis are blameless, but they are in a really difficult place and I do think they deserve some acknowledgment for their behavior relative to other nations in similarly (or less) threatened positions.

If I'm not thoroughly convinced that we absolutely need a Jewish state, I don't think that makes me an anti-Semite or self-hating Jew.
   2367. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:27 PM (#4692735)
Not just that, but the safe zone has to take in all comers from other countries. Even if everything was fine here, I wouldn't trust America to get that done.
   2368. Rickey!'s people were colonized by wankers Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:30 PM (#4692738)
The idea that the Us would sell Jews out if threatened is laughable. This is a level of extreme, absurd paranoia.
   2369. Rickey!'s people were colonized by wankers Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:31 PM (#4692741)
Applying this logic universally, you would have to argue that anyone not supporting reparations for ex slaves is essentially a neo confederate.
   2370. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:32 PM (#4692742)
This is a level of extreme, absurd paranoia.


Tell that to the French jews - or whats left of them after the war, I should say.
   2371. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:38 PM (#4692753)
The idea that the Us would sell Jews out if threatened is laughable. This is a level of extreme, absurd paranoia.


I also enjoy how Sam dabbles his toes in the cool waters of denialism. Fearing something that happened in other Western nations during my father's lifetime is "extreme, absurd paranoia"? Maybe our shadowy cabal made the whole thing up to continue to "wag the dog" (as you put it earlier) of the US government.
   2372. Rickey!'s people were colonized by wankers Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:42 PM (#4692759)
You do realize the the fact of the Holocaust makes the likelihood of a second one decline drastically, right?
   2373. CrosbyBird Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:43 PM (#4692760)
So did many of the Jews in Europe, pre-1930 or so, about their countries.

I don't know how you could ever feel completely safe as a Jew in quite a bit of Europe. America is a totally different place where there really hasn't been any significant or systemic government-sanctioned Jewish oppression in our nearly 250-year history. We're not perfect, but we also don't have to answer for the Inquisition, forced conversions, pogroms, etc.

And there aren't the same protections built into the system the way they are here. We've had the First Amendment for our entire history to protect religious minorities.
   2374. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:43 PM (#4692761)
The idea that the Us would sell Jews out if threatened is laughable. This is a level of extreme, absurd paranoia.

We didn't take many Jews in during WWII.
   2375. Rickey!'s people were colonized by wankers Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:46 PM (#4692765)
It's not 1939. This isn't WW II. The idea that the US would round up Jews and ship them off to slaughter if threatened is absurd paranoia. It's tin foul hat levels of crazy.
   2376. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:47 PM (#4692767)
And there aren't the same protections built into the system the way they are here. We've had the First Amendment for our entire history to protect religious minorities.

Sure, but you have to stress test the system -- something like a suitcase nuke going off in NYC. We lost a great deal of privacy and personal rights after 9/11; a suitcase nuke would probably fry the system.
   2377. Rickey!'s people were colonized by wankers Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:48 PM (#4692769)
Worry about Eastern Europe makes sense. Even some of Western Europe. Certainly Greece and Poland where real neo fascist parties have real power. But the US? Crazy pants insane.
   2378. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:50 PM (#4692771)
You do realize the the fact of the Holocaust makes the likelihood of a second one decline drastically, right?


Really? Then how likely was the first one?
   2379. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:50 PM (#4692772)
The idea that the US would round up Jews and ship them off to slaughter if threatened is absurd paranoia. It's tin foul hat levels of crazy.

Agreed, but not really the question. Could America serve as a substitute safe zone for Israel? A place where any Jew could come if they so choose. That's the question.

Answer: No way.
   2380. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:53 PM (#4692780)
It's not 1939. This isn't WW II. The idea that the US would round up Jews and ship them off to slaughter if threatened is absurd paranoia. It's tin foul hat levels of crazy.


But the French aren't fascist, have only a mild history of antisemistism compared to the Poles or Slavs, etc., and as soon as the Germans pointed a gun to their head they rounded up Jews like it was their job. Now, France is France and the US is the US, but I'm crazy pants insane to think that something that happened in France could easily happen here?
   2381. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:54 PM (#4692783)
You do realize the the fact of the Holocaust makes the likelihood of a second one decline drastically, right?


I just want to highlight this for posterity so others can see what a pig Sam is. He's just argued that because of the Holocaust, Jews should be less concerned about the fate of their people. And I'm the one he's calling insane.
   2382. Rickey!'s people were colonized by wankers Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:56 PM (#4692786)
If Something horrible were to compromise Israel tomorrow the US would initiate open and immediate immigration and fast track citizenship to any refugee requesting asylum. It is not 1939.
   2383. Rickey!'s people were colonized by wankers Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:57 PM (#4692787)
You're an idiot zop. You can't even read plain English.
   2384. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:58 PM (#4692788)
You do realize the the fact of the Holocaust makes the likelihood of a second one decline drastically, right?

And World War I was the War to End All Wars. Misplaced optimism has a long history.
   2385. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 23, 2014 at 10:00 PM (#4692791)
You're an idiot zop. You can't even read plain English.


I'm not the one you have to worry about, Sam. The whole group on this thread can read what you've written and decide for themselves.
   2386. CrosbyBird Posted: April 23, 2014 at 10:01 PM (#4692792)
But the French aren't fascist, have only a mild history of antisemistism compared to the Poles or Slavs, etc., and as soon as the Germans pointed a gun to their head they rounded up Jews like it was their job. Now, France is France and the US is the US, but I'm crazy pants insane to think that something that happened in France could easily happen here?

If we get to the point where someone is in a position to point a gun at the US and demand the turnover of their Jews, Israel is long gone from the planet.

I think that if the choice is "hand over your X, or we kill you," and the threat is legitimately credible, the X are screwed no matter where you are.
   2387. Rickey!'s people were colonized by wankers Posted: April 23, 2014 at 10:02 PM (#4692793)
People who can read won't fail to understand the point. You are not that person apparently.
   2388. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 23, 2014 at 10:02 PM (#4692795)
If we get to the point where someone is in a position to point a gun at the US and demand the turnover of their Jews, Israel is long gone from the planet.

I think that if the choice is "hand over your X, or we kill you," and the threat is legitimately credible, the X are screwed no matter where you are.


Well, duh, but that's the point of Israel. It has its own deterrent, so that if the doomsday scenario happens, its M.A.D.
   2389. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 23, 2014 at 10:03 PM (#4692797)
People who can read won't fail to understand the point. You are not that person apparently.


Don't take this the wrong way, Sam, but people who take the opposite side of my trades don't do too well.
   2390. Rickey!'s people were colonized by wankers Posted: April 23, 2014 at 10:05 PM (#4692800)
Is that even an English sentence?
   2391. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 23, 2014 at 10:06 PM (#4692801)
It's Yiddish.
   2392. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 23, 2014 at 10:09 PM (#4692802)
If Something horrible were to compromise Israel tomorrow the US would initiate open and immediate immigration and fast track citizenship to any refugee requesting asylum. It is not 1939.

Maybe, but you're still dabbling in the lingo and nomenclature of normal statecraft and diplomacy and counterfactuals.

But this is far more primal: Everything we know about the world's history and the world's people tells us that Jews need a safe zone where they can rely on the iron-clad, guaranteed protection of big bombs and big weaponry under tribal control. In that sense it is still very much 1939 and will be 1939 through our lifetimes and the lifetimes of at least our great-great-grandchildren.

America, definitionally, cannot fulfill that ultimate function.



   2393. CrosbyBird Posted: April 23, 2014 at 10:10 PM (#4692805)
If Something horrible were to compromise Israel tomorrow the US would initiate open and immediate immigration and fast track citizenship to any refugee requesting asylum. It is not 1939.

By the time something really horrible happened to Israel, there wouldn't be too many Jews left that aren't already here. There are around 6M Jews in Israel, 5.5M Jews in America, and maybe 2.5M Jews everywhere else.
   2394. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 23, 2014 at 10:12 PM (#4692808)
Israeli culture is secular in nature? Really?


Really.

It wouldn't surprise me if there were more vocal atheists in Israeli public life than there are over here.
   2395. Rickey!'s people were colonized by wankers Posted: April 23, 2014 at 10:35 PM (#4692834)
Perhaps. But in the event of something horrible the US would open her borders and defend the remainder with extreme prejudice. To fear pogroms in the US is paranoia.
   2396. Rickey!'s people were colonized by wankers Posted: April 23, 2014 at 10:37 PM (#4692837)
@2392 - European history. Not World history. The US is not Europe.
   2397. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 23, 2014 at 11:04 PM (#4692860)
But in the event of something horrible the US would open her borders and defend the remainder with extreme prejudice.


Yes, the survivors will sail right in on the St. Louis and be welcomed with open arms.
   2398. SteveF Posted: April 23, 2014 at 11:25 PM (#4692877)
It wouldn't surprise me if there were more vocal atheists in Israeli public life than there are over here.

I'd be shocked if there weren't.
   2399. BrianBrianson Posted: April 24, 2014 at 05:14 AM (#4692923)
@2392 - European history. Not World history. The US is not Europe.


European history, African history, Asian history. That Americans have mostly been too busy focussing their racial animus on Negros, and Injuns, and the Yellow Menace, and ... is not a huge indication it's fundamentally different.
   2400. formerly dp Posted: April 24, 2014 at 07:19 AM (#4692929)
Apparently I was right, I'm not getting any evidentiary support from you anytime soon. I've already played the whole "Hurr, there is no biological basis for race" game and exhaustively documented how wrong that statement is. You can go look up that thread, or better yet, support YOUR claims with evidence.
I asked a simple question. Define race, and show how that definition has been used consistently in the various studies you're citing. Again, we know that definitions of race have changed constantly during the periods you're citing data from. So again: what is race? How many races are there? How do you tell them apart? How do you draw clear and useful lines between them? You're doing the same dance you always do on the subject-- declaring yourself victor because you posted some links a while back, ignoring that those links didn't do what you wanted them to.

This is a good example of an "unknown unknown". You are quite literally ignorant of how ignorant you are. The world of science has tried this assertion and found it wanting. Repeatedly.
Just on the sickle cell question alone, you have a blatant example of racializing a disease causing problems with the communication of information about that disease (race as a tech that does things in the world): and you're citing the use of race by the pharma industry as some sort of gotcha, as if they have special knowledge on the subject that's insulated from prior confusions. Part of this problem arises precisely from *the continued lack of scientific consensus on how to define and measure race*, which you keep wanting to handwave away because it inconveniences your position.

As long as you continue to run from the empirically-observable fact that science is a human construction, that modern racial categorizations have always depended on science for their legitimacy, you're going to keep hitting the same brick wall over and over again. And, fwiw, sounding like just another impassioned white supremacist who has found a home on the intertubes.
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