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Thursday, April 03, 2014

OTP April 2014: BurstNET Sued for Not Making Equipment Lease Payments

Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 03, 2014 at 01:59 PM | 4718 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: 7 million aca signees and counting, i-95 south, nc, politics

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   2401. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 24, 2014 at 08:06 AM (#4692937)
European history, African history, Asian history. That Americans have mostly been too busy focussing their racial animus on Negros, and Injuns, and the Yellow Menace, and ... is not a huge indication it's fundamentally different.


Excepting that in the 600 odd year history of the Anglo-Euro adventure on the North American continent there has been no real history of anti-Jewish animus, it's not "fundamentally different" I suppose. I think 600 years of lack of animus, bookended by 70 years of absolute, unfettered support for Jewish peoples at home and abroad since WW II, indicates a different reading of American history. As long as the United States exists as a major power in the world, the United States will provide unquestioned support and asylum for any Jewish persons requesting as much. This is not to say the state of Israel shouldn't exist. (The fact that I have to clarify that is a testament to how stupid some of the commenters here have gotten over the last couple of pages.) Merely that the idea that the US would sell out Jews for slaughter if threatened by an external force is idiotic, paranoid and completely counter to any realist understanding of the nation.
   2402. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 08:07 AM (#4692938)
You're doing the same dance you always do on the subject


Must be his Negroid blood. Always with the dancing.
   2403. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 24, 2014 at 08:21 AM (#4692947)
I asked a simple question. Define race, and show how that definition has been used consistently in the various studies you're citing.


See this is just one of the problems. He can't define it. He can't enumerate how many races there are. He can't describe what race certain individuals are. And yet race is a central pillar to his world view. He is almost as bad about intelligence. In both cases he falls back to proxies and pulls out the same 2 or 3 tired links, because some pharma company once marketed a drug to African American males (I think that was his one example) then of course race MUST exist.

And then he takes his feeble constructs and make statements like "West Africans are genetically superior at sprinting" (paraphrasing) and uses a tiny sample of the extreme tail end of athletes to make that case for an entire classification (and one that is mostly made up).

He is an Alchemist or Astrologer thinking he is a Chemist or Astronomer. The aping of the real discipline is kind of sad actually.
And of course the whole thing is backstopped by his belief in the "Cathedral" which allows him to believe that all the contrary evidence is being hidden by dark forces.

I don't know that he is racist, but he is crazy narrow and fixed in his limited set of beliefs.
   2404. formerly dp Posted: April 24, 2014 at 08:30 AM (#4692949)
Excepting that in the 600 odd year history of the Anglo-Euro adventure on the North American continent there has been no real history of anti-Jewish animus, it's not "fundamentally different" I suppose.
Wait, what? There's no history of antisemitism in the US? Where I grew up, there was an active Klan presence, and they definitely took aim at the few Jewish folks in the community (granted, with no African-Americans around, they may have just been bored). My friends who grew up Jewish in the midwest definitely said it definitely caused them problems.

Granted, this is counterbalanced by cities like NYC and Charleston that have, from their start, provided safe havens for European Jews, but claiming that there's not a rich history of antisemitism in the US just doesn't square with history.
   2405. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 24, 2014 at 08:34 AM (#4692951)
Regarding Israel. Personally I don't get to say anything about their right to exist or be whatever type of governmental religious/secular hybrid they happen to be. The same is true with regards to any nation.

However I do get to have an opinion about how they treat people, and honestly they treat Palestinians poorly. And deserve much of the criticism they get. And no the events of 20 or 40 or 70 years ago do not give Israel free reign to treat some people like crap. I also get to have opinions about US policy towards Israel, and I think we give them way more open ended support than they "deserve" based on geopolitical reasons. I know why we give it, it is domestic politics and the affinity many in the US feel for Israel. There is a similar dynamic* with Cuba and other places. It is pretty natural and I know for a fact that other nations have similar dynamics based on historic factors, cultural affinities, and so on.

I don't like what the right wing is Israel says, does or stands for. Oddly enough I am also not fond of the right wing in the US, Australia and other places.

* Similar in that it is driven less by geopolitical reasons and much more by emotion, historical and personal factors. Shockingly as in domestic policy, foreign policy is often much less pragmatic than we pretend.
   2406. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 24, 2014 at 08:36 AM (#4692952)
Wait, what? There's no history of antisemitism in the US?


There's obviously history of Klan and other right wing ideologies, many of which trade in antisemitism. And in the run-up to the World Wars, they had some purchase in the actual governing decisions of the state. But they lost, and since WW II there's no real threat of anti-Jewish animus in the United States. The idea that I'm dissenting against is the idea that the United States is not a safe haven for Jewish people, now and into the future. It has been since 1945 at the very least, and it will continue to be into the foreseeable future. There's no real history of Euro-type pogroms here, and what right wing animus exists is deeply marginalized. (In a nation of this size there's always going to be some marginal antisemitism, but it is reduced and constrained to the point of powerlessness in the actual state.)
   2407. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 24, 2014 at 08:36 AM (#4692953)
Excepting that in the 600 odd year history of the Anglo-Euro adventure on the North American continent there has been no real history of anti-Jewish animus,

Oy vey.
   2408. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 24, 2014 at 08:41 AM (#4692955)
I don't know that he is racist, but he is crazy narrow and fixed in his limited set of beliefs.


I doubt The Good Face, who is such the coward as to make sure no one knows who he is, is violently racist in his every day actions. But his stated beliefs, arguments and positions in the world are clearly premised on white supremacy. As such, it is absurd to say he's not racist in point of fact. He consistently and repeatedly argues for white supremacy. There is very little in the world that would better qualify one for being labeled "racist."

Regarding Israel.


Regarding the last two pages of spluttering nonsense, The Good Face, being pinned down as the white supremacist that he is, threw out a red meat troll to slander me and it worked as perfectly as he could have hoped.
   2409. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 24, 2014 at 08:44 AM (#4692957)
claiming that there's not a rich history of antisemitism in the US just doesn't square with history.


Anti-semitism has a rich history everywhere, sadly. But serious question. When does it stop mattering? I get why Jews don't want to be exterminated (duh) or discriminated against (again, duh). But when does it start to feel safe again? How much time has to pass?

The world is a very different place than it was in the early 20th century. Anti-semitism (along with racism, hating on gays and so on - not surprisingly all related phenomenon) has been on the decline world wide for many years. The world is not perfect (once again, duh) and there are definite flare-ups of all those behaviors that happen on a regular basis, but the world has gotten fairly good at stomping on those (some quickly, some not so much), and clearly we are moving in the right direction.

I know there is no real answer, just as there is no real answer as to when racism will end, but at what point, how much time needs to pass in the US or elsewhere before talk about the US shipping its Jews off to wherever because of nuclear threats is obviously crazy talk to everyone involved?
   2410. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 24, 2014 at 08:46 AM (#4692958)
The idea that I'm dissenting against is the idea that the United States is not a safe haven for Jewish people, now and into the future.

I think you're misinterpreting the term "save haven" as I've been using it. Yes, Jews are safe here. But, no, America does not have an analog to the Law of Return and there's no reason to assume it would adopt one if things got to the point where it was most needed. It didn't in the 40s. It might, but might isn't good enough.

The "save haven" concept also includes, as noted above, the ultimate fallback position of a territory defended by modern weaponry under Jewish control. America, definitionally, cannot offer that component.
   2411. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 24, 2014 at 08:51 AM (#4692959)
As such, it is absurd to say he's not racist in point of fact.


I was very careful in what I said. I don't know he is racist. I wouldn't want my children hanging around him picking about his crazy-ass beliefs though. However I do know, with complete confidence he is narrow minded and fixated in his beliefs to a nutty degree (at least his online persona is).

Regarding the last two pages of spluttering nonsense, The Good Face, being pinned down as the white supremacist that he is, threw out a red meat troll to slander me and it worked as perfectly as he could have hoped.


I stepped in fairly early and have been very clear in my belief that you are not anti-semitic (certainly not based on what you have written, for all I know in real life you stab people in the neck or something. And you definitely are anti-people, and semites are people, so there is that). But yeah the whole thing is clearly a red herring which did work as desired.
   2412. formerly dp Posted: April 24, 2014 at 08:52 AM (#4692960)
The idea that I'm dissenting against is the idea that the United States is not a safe haven for Jewish people, now and into the future.
I would agree with the 'now' part, but we're too temperamental and reactionary of a culture for me to say anything on 'into the future'. It doesn't take much imagination to come up with a situation where Israel does something unsavory that has blowback on the US, and Jews quickly become the harder-to-pick-out-of-a-crowd version of Muslims after 9/11.
   2413. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 24, 2014 at 08:53 AM (#4692961)
I think you're misinterpreting the term "save haven" as I've been using it. Yes, Jews are safe here. But, no, America does not have an analog to the Law of Return and there's no reason to assume it would adopt one if things got to the point where it was most needed. It didn't in the 40s. It might, but might isn't good enough.


And I think you drastically underestimate the change in the world, and most notably in the United States, since the 1940s. If something terrible were to happen to Israel, the United States would offer immediate and unfettered asylum to any Jewish person, from Israel or Europe (assuming the terrible thing was not singular to the Mid-East) seeking it and capable of getting here. It is not 1939.

The "save haven" concept also includes, as noted above, the ultimate fallback position of a territory defended by modern weaponry under Jewish control. America, definitionally, cannot offer that component.


Obviously if the definition of safe haven requires absolutely control of the state and the guns, then no, you've defined the term to such minute degree that it will only suit your end definition. But I think that's an unnecessarily constrained definition of "safe haven." In order to have a Jewish state, there must be a Jewish state. Obviously. Again, this is tautological. But the United States is a safe haven for Jewish peoples from the world over, today and into the foreseeable future. And to be perfectly clear again, the point of dissent I brought up was to the absurdly paranoid idea that if threatened by an external force to "hand over your Jews or suffer the consequences," the United States would round up Jews and hand them over. There is no conceivable way that happens. If the world were to get to the point where that would be a feasible outcome, the United States of America would no longer functionally exist.
   2414. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 24, 2014 at 08:55 AM (#4692963)
I stepped in fairly early and have been very clear in my belief that you are not anti-semitic


For which I am grateful. There were only a couple of spluttering nonsense fools, but they were vocal for a couple of pages, just as TGF had hoped they would be. Useful idiots and all that, I suppose.

(certainly not based on what you have written, for all I know in real life you stab people in the neck or something. And you definitely are anti-people, and semites are people, so there is that).


This is all perfectly true. Except the stabbing thing. I would never do that and admit to it in public.
   2415. McCoy Posted: April 24, 2014 at 08:57 AM (#4692966)
Can't we talk about Zachary Taylor or something?
   2416. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 24, 2014 at 08:58 AM (#4692969)
I would agree with the 'now' part, but we're too temperamental and reactionary of a culture for me to say anything on 'into the future'. It doesn't take much imagination to come up with a situation where Israel does something unsavory that has blowback on the US, and Jews quickly become the harder-to-pick-out-of-a-crowd version of Muslims after 9/11.


This is a point well taken. But I think the post-war history of the US suggests that it would have to be something truly, fantastically atrocious. You might get some blowback in the heartland - hell, we just had a shooting in the midwest, right? But you'd have to see some sort of massive, near-genocidal act by Israel in order to move the needle that far for the actual state. I don't think we're going to be seeing "you can't build your temple there" protests any time soon.
   2417. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 24, 2014 at 08:59 AM (#4692972)
and Jews quickly become the harder-to-pick-out-of-a-crowd version of Muslims after 9/11.


And in what was perhaps the shrubs finest hour he seemed to reach out to Muslims and had no problem pushing back against the hate towards them. And then he invaded a couple countries and killed hundreds of thousands and wasted trillions of dollars. But for a moment there he was OK.

Yes the future is a foreign land and we can't know what is going to happen, but the trend (worldwide) is clearly towards tolerance and away from discrimination of all types, and it looks to continue that way (I wonder what political movement is behind all that tolerance, I would like to join them, they seem like a good bunch).
   2418. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 24, 2014 at 08:59 AM (#4692973)
And to be perfectly clear again, the point of dissent I brought up was to the absurdly paranoid idea that if threatened by an external force to "hand over your Jews or suffer the consequences," the United States would round up Jews and hand them over.

One doesn't have to subscribe to that idea to accept my construction.
   2419. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:00 AM (#4692974)
Can't we talk about Zachary Taylor or something?


Didn't he start for the Nationals against Tyler Skaggs?
   2420. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:01 AM (#4692975)
Can't we talk about Zachary Taylor or something?


We can talk about economic theory. I can explain more about how marginal cost works (hint, not like Joe K thinks it does).
   2421. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:01 AM (#4692976)
But they lost, and since WW II there's no real threat of anti-Jewish animus in the United States.


Aren't there a series of legislative proposals to allow businesses to discriminate against Jews if that discrimination is based on "sincere religious belief" or whatever legally-groomed term they decided on?
   2422. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:01 AM (#4692977)
You might get some blowback in the heartland - hell, we just had a shooting in the midwest, right?

Right. A mass shooting animated purely by anti-Semitic animus.
   2423. formerly dp Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:02 AM (#4692978)
I don't know he is racist.
I agree with your parsing here, but I do think Sam's right in that TGF's statements are garden-variety statements uttered by racists and white supremacists in the past. This is one of the main points of the science studies literature on the subject: to show how scientific utterances in a given period were expressions of a racist ideology that those uttering them may not have been aware they were endorsing/embracing, and history will very likely see the sorts of statements uttered by those TGF's citing similarly.
   2424. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:06 AM (#4692982)
Aren't there a series of legislative proposals to allow businesses to discriminate against Jews if that discrimination is based on "sincere religious belief" or whatever legally-groomed term they decided on?


I was not aware that all Jews were gay. Learn something new every day.

Right. A mass shooting animated purely by anti-Semitic animus.


By a clearly fringe and marginalized lunatic, whose beliefs carry absolutely zero weight in the culture at large.
   2425. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:09 AM (#4692983)
   2426. formerly dp Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:09 AM (#4692984)
2416-2417: I don't disagree with much here, but you can understand how a long history of violent persecution might inspire some justified paranoia about how quickly accepting populations can turn on you. Again, I saw enough antisemitism growing up in a rural area of the northeast to not believe it's something that has been entirely left in the past.
   2427. BrianBrianson Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:17 AM (#4692988)

And I think you drastically underestimate the change in the world, and most notably in the United States, since the 1940s.


You're way overshooting the date. The rhetorical shifted a bit in the 40s and 50s, but the winding down of sterilising retarded people, stealing generations of Aborigines and Indians, lynchings, imprisoning people for being gay, etc. etc. etc. really occurred in the 1960s and 1970s. Assuming this represents a new, permanent high for human behaviour is foolish. It's a lovely, optimistic thought - I love Star Trek. But it's the best case scenario, not the worst case scenario.
   2428. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:17 AM (#4692989)
In a shocking turn of events, Cliven Bundy turns out to be a racist too.


Yeah, that is surprising. In other news, water wet.

I agree with your parsing here, but I do think Sam's right in that


Well yeah, that's why I parsed it that way. I try to be very careful when I call people names. But yes in large part Rickey! is right (though I try to minimize letting him know I think so, it is bad for him to get too much encouragement).

Aren't there a series of legislative proposals to allow businesses to discriminate against Jews if that discrimination is based on "sincere religious belief" or whatever legally-groomed term they decided on?


I am not sure how wide reaching those laws could be extended*. one of many reasons those laws are really a terrible idea and should be ended with extreme prejudice. In the private sphere do what you want and practice your religion as you may, in the public sphere (like running a business) STFU and deal with it, you don't get to let your beliefs excuse your crappy behavior.

* No doubt much farther than those pushing the laws think. They are predictably dumb that way. Like all the laws allowing "enhanced" religious expression get yanked when the Satanists (or whoever) want to partake. Honestly, many lawmakers on the right are so very dumb it is hard to believe they manage to dress themselves every morning.
   2429. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:20 AM (#4692992)
2416-2417: I don't disagree with much here, but you can understand how a long history of violent persecution might inspire some justified paranoia about how quickly accepting populations can turn on you. Again, I saw enough antisemitism growing up in a rural area of the northeast to not believe it's something that has been entirely left in the past.


Certainly. Stipulated and agreed. And history has no narrative or direction aside from the one we force on it as we go. Which is why I quite obviously and regularly push back against the dredges of the rabid right wings, domestically and abroad, in an effort to do some small part in guarding the gains made and advancing the goals of a pluralistic, diverse and multi-culti society into the future. (You know, the type of society The Good Face abhors.)

That said, the level of paranoia required to believe the US would, in any near term scenario, round up Jews and ship them off to slaughter for fear of external threat, is beyond "justified" IMHO.
   2430. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:22 AM (#4692994)
It's a lovely, optimistic thought - I love Star Trek. But it's the best case scenario, not the worst case scenario.


I am nothing if not optimistic. And as such I do think tolerance has reached a worldwide critical mass. If something so dramatic manages to change that momentum then whatever it is would be so big and so game changing that I suspect anti-semitism will be fairly low on the list of things to worry about, somewhere after "try to keep civilization from falling apart".
   2431. Swoboda is freedom Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:22 AM (#4692995)
Can't we talk about Zachary Taylor or something?

I don't think we are rough enough or ready to talk about Zachary Taylor.
   2432. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:23 AM (#4692996)
By a clearly fringe and marginalized lunatic, whose beliefs carry absolutely zero weight in the culture at large.

No. The shootings were actually in my sister's hometown -- not really the "heartland," but instead an elite suburb of Kansas City. They had to set up a human chain from preventing dozens of Westboro Baptist people from picketing the funerals and she sent me pictures. The would-be picketers were carrying signs such as "The Jews killed Jesus" and "JDL New Bullies."(*)

Charming stuff.

(*) They were also carrying signs like "Christians caused fag marriage," thus showing a more ecumenical resentment. But, in a textbook example of history repeating itself, general feelings of resentment and bitterness are, almost as a law of nature, turned against Jews. Almost without exception, wherever you find resentment in the world, you'll find resentment of Jews.
   2433. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:23 AM (#4692997)
Regarding Israel. Personally I don't get to say anything about their right to exist or be whatever type of governmental religious/secular hybrid they happen to be. The same is true with regards to any nation.

However I do get to have an opinion about how they treat people, and honestly they treat Palestinians poorly. And deserve much of the criticism they get. And no the events of 20 or 40 or 70 years ago do not give Israel free reign to treat some people like crap. I also get to have opinions about US policy towards Israel, and I think we give them way more open ended support than they "deserve" based on geopolitical reasons. I know why we give it, it is domestic politics and the affinity many in the US feel for Israel. There is a similar dynamic* with Cuba and other places. It is pretty natural and I know for a fact that other nations have similar dynamics based on historic factors, cultural affinities, and so on.


The Israelis treat the Palestinians poorly largely because a large % of Palestinians wants to kill Israelis. This is not hard.

Israeli discrimination against Palestinians is almost entirely driven by security concerns; both short-term (anti-terrorist) and long-term (maintaining a Jewish majority in Israel). When the majority of Palestinians and their leaders stop wanting to wipe out Israel, then you can criticize the Israelis.
   2434. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:26 AM (#4692999)
You're way overshooting the date. The rhetorical shifted a bit in the 40s and 50s, but the winding down of sterilising retarded people, stealing generations of Aborigines and Indians, lynchings, imprisoning people for being gay, etc. etc. etc. really occurred in the 1960s and 1970s.


I understand your point here, but I think the primal shift in American relations to Jews occurred about the time American soldiers walked into Buchenwald. Yes, the liberalization of America and the western world took a slow route through the 60s and 70s, but I think the rank horror of the Nazi camps fundamentally altered the US's relationship to the Jewish people, and essentially marked the moment where we became a safe haven explicitly rather than implicitly.

Assuming this represents a new, permanent high for human behaviour is foolish.


I assume nothing is permanent.
   2435. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:26 AM (#4693000)
I am nothing if not optimistic.

There were plenty of optimistic people in the Europe of 1890-1930, too.
   2436. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:27 AM (#4693001)
Can't we talk about Zachary Taylor or something?


How did he feel about Jews?
   2437. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:28 AM (#4693002)
No. The shootings were actually in my sister's hometown -- not really the "heartland," but instead an elite suburb of Kansas City. They had to set up a human chain from preventing dozens of Westboro Baptist people from picketing the funerals and she sent me pictures.


Westboro is itself a fringe and lunatic, marginalized group of nutters.
   2438. BrianBrianson Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:31 AM (#4693008)
I suspect anti-semitism will be fairly low on the list of things to worry about, somewhere after "try to keep civilization from falling apart"


Well, if it comes time to eat the rich, I would expect to see the Jews as bankers meme grow like it was being watered by BALCO.
   2439. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:35 AM (#4693012)
If something terrible were to happen to Israel, the United States would offer immediate and unfettered asylum to any Jewish person, from Israel or Europe (assuming the terrible thing was not singular to the Mid-East) seeking it and capable of getting here.


Are you so sure? We haven't even offered asylum to the small number of Iraqi and Afghani translators who worked for our armed forces and who now face deadly reprisal in their home countries.
   2440. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:37 AM (#4693014)
Aren't there a series of legislative proposals to allow businesses to discriminate against Jews if that discrimination is based on "sincere religious belief" or whatever legally-groomed term they decided on?

I was not aware that all Jews were gay. Learn something new every day.


I don't think any of the bills single out sexual orientation. Here's the Mississippi one. Here's the Ohio one. Here's the Idaho one.

Jews know to trust the discriminatory whims of the goyim at their own peril. I don't see anything in there that prevents a shop owner from refusing service to a Jew. Just because the PR professionals who market these bills focus on homosexuals doesn't mean that homosexuality would be the primary target of its execution.

That said, the level of paranoia required to believe the US would, in any near term scenario, round up Jews and ship them off to slaughter for fear of external threat, is beyond "justified" IMHO.


Maybe they think enacting the right policies will encourage the Jews to self-deport.
   2441. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:38 AM (#4693016)
The Israelis treat the Palestinians poorly largely because a large % of Palestinians wants to kill Israelis. This is not hard.

Israeli discrimination against Palestinians is almost entirely driven by security concerns; both short-term (anti-terrorist) and long-term (maintaining a Jewish majority in Israel). When the majority of Palestinians and their leaders stop wanting to wipe out Israel, then you can criticize the Israelis.


This offends me on two levels. First the strategy Israel is following is dumb (and hypocritical, but I will settle for dumb). They are setting up the perfect conditions for the next generation of people to hate them. They are treating the short term symptom at the expense of make the long term condition worse. That is a trade off they get to make (it is there country after all), but don't expect me to not say anything about their stupidity.

The second level it is offensive is the whole "When the majority of Palestinians and their leaders stop wanting to wipe out Israel, then you can criticize the Israelis" construct. It is stupid on multiple levels. To take it back to grade school (or earlier) two wrongs don't make a right. And nothing in those wrongs says anything about what I can or cannot chose to criticize.

I have not exactly showered Palestine or the rest of the arab world with praise. I think they are being idiots as well. But again them being idiots does not excuse the Israelis from their idiocy. Both brands of idiocy are bad and deserve scorn. I happen to hold Israel to a higher standard than I do the Palestinians, but that doesn't mean I think less of them, rather I think more of Israel and thus they disappoint me more.
   2442. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:40 AM (#4693017)
Well, if it comes time to eat the rich, I would expect to see the Jews as bankers meme grow like it was being watered by BALCO.


See, this is where you have to be very specific. If you kill them because they're bankers, that's not antisemitic, even if they're Jewish. (I get your point, but obviously, killing bankers of any cultural ethnicity is fine. Also, lawyers.)

Are you so sure?


Am I sure? I try not to deal in the myth of certainty. Am I comfortable with my construction above that, should we ever get to a point where the US is not a safe haven for Jews, the United States will functionally no longer exist? Yes.
   2443. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:41 AM (#4693018)

Israeli discrimination against Palestinians is almost entirely driven by security concerns; both short-term (anti-terrorist) and long-term (maintaining a Jewish majority in Israel). When the majority of Palestinians and their leaders stop wanting to wipe out Israel, then you can criticize the Israelis.


I think this is very naive. Most Palestinians want peace. Indeed, 33% of Palestinians are under 14 and 50% are women, so even if every adult male wanted to destroy Israel, that would be far short of a majority.

In any case, polls of (adult) Palestinians show that over 50% of Palestinians wish a two-state solution, 33% want a one-state solution in which Palestinians have equal rights. Granted that the two categories probably overlap, that's a solid majority of Palestinians.
   2444. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:42 AM (#4693019)
Maybe they think enacting the right policies will encourage the Jews to self-deport.


I laughed. Gallows laughter, but still. But yeah the idea that a law sold as a way to discriminate against group "A" would only ever be used against that group is foolish in the extreme. Of course it would be used that way*, and the right wing moron contingent would be shocked and horrified the first time it was used against them.

* Confused construction, sorry. By "that way" I mean against much more than just group "A".
   2445. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:43 AM (#4693020)
This offends me on two levels. First the strategy Israel is following is dumb


The dumb thing was trying to deal in good faith with terrorists in the first place. It validated their belief that they can get what they want through intransigence. Compare this to Jordan's approach on the subject of relinquishing their territory to "Palestinians" based on their supposed territorial entitlement.
   2446. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:50 AM (#4693026)
The dumb thing was trying to deal in good faith with terrorists in the first place.


I am not suggesting dealing in good faith with terrorists. I am suggesting their current policies ensure a steady supply of future terrorists and that they should be trying to cut off the supply of terrorists by changing their policy. Unless you are suggesting ALL palestinians are terrorists or something.

And by the way, good faith is something neither side has shown the other side much in recent times. Good faith is in very short supply. Someone will have to show some to the other side. Logically it should be easier for the more powerful secure party (that would be the Israeli side, by the way) to start the ball rolling, but in the end both sides will have to provide some.
   2447. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:50 AM (#4693027)
Maybe they think enacting the right policies will encourage the Jews to self-deport.

I laughed.


It's a strong undercurrent in conservative theocratic circles directly along those lines. Just listen to proud Papist Bill O'Reilly responding to a Jewish person who expressed concern over government-endorsed Chrsitian holiday events:

You have a predominantly Christian nation. You have a federal holiday based on the philosopher Jesus. And you don't wanna hear about it? Come on, [caller] -- if you are really offended, you gotta go to Israel then.I mean because we live in a country founded on Judeo -- and that's your guys' -- Christian, that's my guys' philosophy. But overwhelmingly, America is Christian. And the holiday is a federal holiday honoring the philosopher Jesus. So, you don't wanna hear about it? Impossible. And that is an affront to the majority. You know, the majority can be insulted, too. And that's what this anti-Christmas thing is all about.


If you don't like government-sanctioned Christianity, you gotta go to Israel. Goyim won't hear that dog whistle.
   2448. zonk Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:57 AM (#4693031)
In a shocking turn of events, Cliven Bundy turns out to be a racist too.


I always like to get the day's least surprising revelation out of the way before I finish my morning coffee...
   2449. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:57 AM (#4693032)
It's a strong undercurrent in conservative theocratic circles directly along those lines.


Sure, that is why it is funny in a gallows humor kind of way. I also laugh at funerals. My whole family does. We also laugh at weddings.
   2450. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:59 AM (#4693033)
In a shocking turn of events, Cliven Bundy turns out to be a racist too.


Best Bundys:

1) Al
2) King Kong
3) Dylan
4) Cliven
5) Ted
   2451. Publius Publicola Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:59 AM (#4693034)
Can't we talk about Zachary Taylor or something?


Well, Zachary, Zachary Taylor's lucky he was president for Christ sake. He retreated from Wild Cat Creek, he retreated from the ####### god dammed Fort Johnson. We saw that Zachary Taylor could sit on his ####### ass for eight years and enjoy watching the country grow just like any other citizen, and have the ability to get up there and veto a slave bill. So if these cocksuckers would mind their own business and let us elect a decent ####### president we'd be a lot better off.

   2452. BrianBrianson Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:00 AM (#4693036)
(I get your point, but obviously, killing bankers of any cultural ethnicity is fine. Also, lawyers.)


Well, yes, but I'm referring to stereotyping Jews as bankers (and lawyers), not them actually being bankers (or lawyers). Although certainly some are, mobs don't have a good track record of checking these things out first.
   2453. spike Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:01 AM (#4693039)
Polling update!

Residents in Kentucky, Louisiana and North Carolina chose improving the law over repealing it and replacing it by significant margins: 52 percent to 41 percent in Kentucky, 52 percent to 44 percent in Louisiana, and a whopping 60 percent to 35 percent in North Carolina.

Bonus equality update - Texas same-sex marriage ban ruled unconstitutional

   2454. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:02 AM (#4693040)
If you don't like government-sanctioned Christianity, you gotta go to Israel.


Government sanctioned X-ianity in the US bad. Government sanctioned Judaism in Israel good? Isn't there a none of the above option?
   2455. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:03 AM (#4693042)
Although certainly some are, mobs don't have a good track record of checking these things out first.


Eggs. Omelette.
   2456. Mefisto Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:03 AM (#4693043)
I don't know that he is racist, but he is crazy narrow and fixed in his limited set of beliefs.


I don't see any reason not to draw the obvious conclusion from his comments.

Also, for the record, Sam is not anti-semitic from what I've seen. And I agree with 2441.
   2457. Publius Publicola Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:19 AM (#4693056)
Texas same-sex marriage ban ruled unconstitutional


Another example of our country's slouch towards Gomorra.
   2458. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:37 AM (#4693071)
I think you drastically underestimate the change in the world, and most notably in the United States, since the 1940s. If something terrible were to happen to Israel, the United States would offer immediate and unfettered asylum to any Jewish person, from Israel or Europe (assuming the terrible thing was not singular to the Mid-East) seeking it and capable of getting here. It is not 1939.

The only problem with that hypothetical is that "something terrible" would likely happen so quickly and without much warning that you'd have a logistical nightmare if you tried to evacuate the entire Jewish population of Israel alone. This is independent any willingness of the United States to absorb 5.8 million Israeli Jews purely on the basis of human solidarity.

Given all that, the point is to deter that "something terrible" with a combination of credible strength and repeated outreach, even if the latter effort fails time and time again. Even if every American were suddenly to see 5.8 million Jews** as 5.8 million shmoos, you have to wonder just how they'd all get over here, where the hell they'd settle, what they'd do once they settled, and what would happen in the meantime to those waiting to get out, if this "something terrible" is so bad as to require an immediate mass exodus.

**About 3 million of whom (P.S.) bear striking physical resemblance to the sort of "terrorists" our local nativists seem to get so worked up about. Yeah, this would be easy.
   2459. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:44 AM (#4693080)
By a clearly fringe and marginalized lunatic, whose beliefs carry absolutely zero weight in the culture at large.

No. The shootings were actually in my sister's hometown -- not really the "heartland," but instead an elite suburb of Kansas City. They had to set up a human chain from preventing dozens of Westboro Baptist people from picketing the funerals and she sent me pictures. The would-be picketers were carrying signs such as "The Jews killed Jesus" and "JDL New Bullies."(*)

Charming stuff.


The shooter is not from KC, he's from North Carolina, and relocated to backwoods, southern Missouri. He, and the WBC are clearly the lunatic fringe.
   2460. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:54 AM (#4693093)
The shooter is not from KC, he's from North Carolina, and relocated to backwoods, southern Missouri. He, and the WBC are clearly the lunatic fringe.

Thus proving the ease by which violent anti-Semitism can travel from the backwooods to civilization.
   2461. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:54 AM (#4693094)
From the link @2458 I have learned the phrase "mountain Jew" is apparently used in polite society. This amuses me greatly.
   2462. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:55 AM (#4693096)
Thus proving the ease by which violent anti-Semitism can travel from the backwooods to civilization.


I don't think anyone would confuse Kansas City with civilization.
   2463. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:00 AM (#4693108)
Thus proving the ease by which violent anti-Semitism can travel from the backwooods to civilization.


Something I have learned over the last week or so. According to SBB racism is totally not really a problem (except in the mind of the modern liberal), and in fact the real victims of racism are those accused of it; but anti-semitism is like everywhere and must be fought tooth and nail, else it will spread like wildfire, and semi-randomly accusing people of being anti-semitic on little or no evidence is totally kosher.

Any guess that SBB has more connections to Jews than minorities where racism is likely is pure speculation.
   2464. spike Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:06 AM (#4693117)
Violent racism in America doesn't need to travel.
   2465. The Good Face Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:08 AM (#4693120)
See this is just one of the problems. He can't define it. He can't enumerate how many races there are. He can't describe what race certain individuals are. And yet race is a central pillar to his world view. He is almost as bad about intelligence. In both cases he falls back to proxies and pulls out the same 2 or 3 tired links, because some pharma company once marketed a drug to African American males (I think that was his one example) then of course race MUST exist.


My goodness but you're shameless. After a long thread in which you continually moved the goalposts until they were no longer in the stadium and I still kept kicking balls though, one would think you would have learned something. Ultimately, you demanded a published paper in the hard sciences stating in no uncertain that there was a biological basis for race. Which I provided for you from Stanford's School of Medicine & Kaiser Permanente's Division of Research. Here's the money graf;

If biological is defined as genetic then, as detailed above, a decade or more of genetics population research has documented genetic, and therefore biological, differentiation among the races ... If biological is defined by susceptibility to, and natural history of, a chronic disease, then again numerous studies over the past decades have documented biological differences among the races. In this context it is difficult to imagine that such differences are not meaningful. Indeed it is difficult to conceive of a definition of 'biological' that does not lead to racial differentiation, except perhaps one as extreme as speciation.


Of course, the truly amusing thing is that you guys don't even take your own silly argument, "Race is solely a social construct!" seriously. Because if race truly is solely a social construct, then the construct of "black" would pretty clearly be suboptimal. It would be solely responsible for lower intellectual and educational accomplishment, higher rates of crime and incarceration, and disproportionate rates of poverty. Any sane society would and should do everything in its power to eliminate this societal construct that so strongly and negatively impacts a large segment of its population and creates detrimental externalities for the rest of the population, and anybody who tried to support or maintain this construct would rightly be regarded as a self-interested scoundrel at best and more likely as a sociopathic criminal. But of course we all know that nobody would ever dream of seriously making such suggestions because nobody with two brain cells to rub together genuinely believes that race is solely a social construct.

I doubt The Good Face, who is such the coward as to make sure no one knows who he is, is violently racist in his every day actions. But his stated beliefs, arguments and positions in the world are clearly premised on white supremacy. As such, it is absurd to say he's not racist in point of fact. He consistently and repeatedly argues for white supremacy. There is very little in the world that would better qualify one for being labeled "racist."


Considering you went screaming to Jim when faced with the prospect of having your real name attached to your anti-semitic statements, you're not much of a profile in courage yourself there tiger. And as I've already pointed out, I'm no more a "white supremacist" than somebody who notices that people in wheelchairs have a harder time with stairs and unpaved surfaces is a "walking supremacist". This whole "white supremacy" canard was something you concocted when you were faced with arguments that both upset you and that you had no answer to (which is most arguments really), and is utterly ungrounded in reality. It's just another flavor of lefties screaming racism when they've been outwitted or when someone has the temerity to disagree with them. You've provided zero evidence to back the claim up other than to repeatedly yelp, "That's an argument a white supremacist might have used!". Which is a nonsensical claim; you repeatedly use arguments that communists have used, but that doesn't necessarily make you a communist. (although you probably are considering your fondness for justifying communist atrocities)
   2466. CrosbyBird Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:09 AM (#4693121)
This offends me on two levels. First the strategy Israel is following is dumb (and hypocritical, but I will settle for dumb). They are setting up the perfect conditions for the next generation of people to hate them. They are treating the short term symptom at the expense of make the long term condition worse. That is a trade off they get to make (it is there country after all), but don't expect me to not say anything about their stupidity.

I'm not sure that Israel is in much of a position to sacrifice the short-term in favor of the long-term. They need a solution that has short-term safety AND long-term improvement. To me, that's a two-state solution.

My guess is that the wall is part of a long-term plan to abandon the territory on the other side.
   2467. Publius Publicola Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:13 AM (#4693123)
Ok, enough is enough. Can you all stop calling Rickey! an anti-semite please? You all know he isn't one and calling him that just diminishes anything else you might have to say.
   2468. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:16 AM (#4693124)
My guess is that the wall is part of a long-term plan to abandon the territory on the other side.


I assume so as well, of course the Palestinians (even those who could live with a solution that does not involve driving the Jews into the sea) claim some land on the Israeli side of the wall, and there are several thousand settlers on the non-Israel side of the wall (and they do not intend to leave)

To be blunt, its not politically correct, but I don't see any eventual way out of this without some form of population transfer.
   2469. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:21 AM (#4693132)
My goodness but you're shameless. After a long thread in which you continually moved the goalposts until they were no longer in the stadium and I still kept kicking balls though, one would think you would have learned something.


So right at the beginning me asking for an actual definition of race and an enumeration of what races you think exist is somehow moving the goal posts? How creative of you. And when I asked what race Barack Obama was, Sally Hemings & Thomas Jefferson's children were, what race Tiger Woods was, and you refused that was "kicking the ball through the goal posts"? An interesting definition of success.

And I love that you think the same couple of links (hey where is that pharma link, it is due soon I bet) some how defines the scientific consensus. I gave multiple links pointing out that a huge percentage of scientists think race is primarily* a societal construct, but those don't count.

Sigh.

But let's be more recent. You recently posted that "west africans" were superior at sprinting. There were numerous rebuttals to that statement and you failed to respond to any of them. More success on your part (in your mind) I suppose.

* And again for you and your strawman brigade, no one has said there is no genetic differences between groups of people. No one thinks race (as defined by you and those white supremacists you are totally unaffiliated with) is completely social. However it is primarily societal as it impacts the sorts of things you talk about, such as "intelligence" and propensity towards crime and other things. Race is not useful as a biological construct as you frame it.
   2470. Publius Publicola Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:21 AM (#4693133)
To be blunt, its not politically correct, but I don't see any eventual way out of this without some form of population transfer.


And that's why israel cynically permits the construction of more settlements. They'll have more to barter once they start talking turkey. And it's also why the Palestinians raise such a ruckus about it. They know that every settlement built will have to be bought back in some way when the borders are drawn.
   2471. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:24 AM (#4693135)
Considering you went screaming to Jim when


Yes, the last time you slandered me I asked Jim to remove it. This is true. Your continuing need to slander me is between you and Jim.
   2472. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:24 AM (#4693137)
I'm not sure that Israel is in much of a position to sacrifice the short-term in favor of the long-term.


Everything is a trade off. There are cost benefit calculations around every choice made. Right now they are (IMO) choosing foolishly.

To be blunt, its not politically correct, but I don't see any eventual way out of this without some form of population transfer.


I was totally convinced South Africa would end up in genocide on one side or the other. It is amazing it did not. There is always hope. But again I am an optimist.
   2473. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:31 AM (#4693141)
Yes, the last time you slandered me I asked Jim to remove it. This is true. Your continuing need to slander me is between you and Jim.

How about you both stop slandering each other?
   2474. formerly dp Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:32 AM (#4693143)
Which I provided for you from Stanford's School of Medicine & Kaiser Permanente's Division of Research.

The conclusions of the study you cite were dealt with in one of the chapters of the book I linked to on the last page (Evolutionary vs Racial Medicine: Why it matters).

Of course, the truly amusing thing is that you guys don't even take your own silly argument, "Race is solely a social construct!" seriously. Because if race truly is solely a social construct, then the construct of "black" would pretty clearly be suboptimal. It would be solely responsible for lower intellectual and educational accomplishment, higher rates of crime and incarceration, and disproportionate rates of poverty. Any sane society would and should do everything in its power to eliminate this societal construct
A nice string of sentences where TGF shows he has never read any of the lit on race as a social construction, some of which was penned by biologists and geneticists, and most of which deals with precisely the question of the damaging effects of that construct.

This whole "white supremacy" canard was something you concocted when you were faced with arguments that both upset you and that you had no answer to (which is most arguments really), and is utterly ungrounded in reality.
Someone who claims that blacks have genetic traits that make them less intelligent than whites is making a white supremacist claim, particularly when it's backed up by the same types of evidence that prior generations of white supremacists used to support their claims. Your sudden disavowal of the association is a striking development: maybe an attempt to sanitize your image after you spent a few months of ranting about TEH CATHEDRAL and the white race's inherent intellectual superiority?
   2475. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:32 AM (#4693144)
Something I have learned over the last week or so. According to SBB racism is totally not really a problem** (except in the mind of the modern liberal), and in fact the real victims of racism are those accused of it***; but anti-semitism is like everywhere and must be fought tooth and nail, else it will spread like wildfire, and semi-randomly accusing people of being anti-semitic on little or no evidence is totally kosher.

**Unless we're talking about a football team's nickname. Racial profiling amounts to nothing compared to that.

***Unless they're two Redskins fans talking about an upcoming game and don't substitute "the Washington professional football team" for "Redskins" at every point in the conversation. The eagle eye of SugarBear is eternally vigilant.
   2476. Ron J2 Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:39 AM (#4693148)
#2441 I also object to Snapper's phrasing. Thing is, it doesn't have to be a large percentage, there's clearly a critical mass, and that explains much. And until the extremists (on both sides) are marginalized there's just no way forward.

Mind you, I'm on the same page as you in terms of the effects (and effectiveness) of Israel's tactics.

   2477. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:40 AM (#4693150)
I've never suggested racism doesn't exist and isn't a "problem."

I've often quite rightly stated that situations in which racism is claimed don't show the existence of racism.

It cannot seriously be argued that modern liberals do not, with great frequency, use the canard of "racism" as a sword and a dodge.

Nor can it seriously be argued that affirmative action in college and pro school admissions does not treat the races unequally based on their races.
   2478. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:41 AM (#4693152)
I was totally convinced South Africa would end up in genocide on one side or the other. It is amazing it did not. There is always hope. But again I am an optimist.


Religious/ethnic minorities are basically getting "cleansed" right out of the Sunni world the past generation, that at least was a dynamic that South Africa didn't have to deal with.

Also look at Zimbabwe, the outcome there hasn't been so hot for the non-Shona.

I thunk there have been 2 "opportunities" that if taken could have lead to a resolution by now:
1: The Arabs could have accepted the UN Partition plan, or at least bargained/haggled over terms- instead aside form Jordan their response was essentially an absolutely intransigent "no"

2: The Israelis never should have embarked on Jewish settlement in the territory occupied in 1967, the land should always been held as either bargaining chips (Sinai), or they should have set up some semi-autonomous Palestinian government from day 1 (they tried that far too late)

but that's just like my opinion, now? I don't really see any better solution to just finishing the damn wall, and either pulling the settlers back inside, or abandoning the ones who won't go.
   2479. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:42 AM (#4693153)
How about you both stop slandering each other?


I know it was amusing for, oh, 2.3 minutes... but now it's been how many words/pages?
   2480. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:45 AM (#4693155)
Religious/ethnic minorities are basically getting "cleansed" right out of the Sunni world the past generation

Yes, Arab Christians have experienced pretty much exactly what Israeli Jews fear. The Christian population in the Arab world has fallen from about 20% of total Arabs to <5%, mostly through out-migration due to persecution.

Now the Sunnis and Shiites are also going after each other.
   2481. zonk Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:53 AM (#4693162)
It cannot seriously be argued that modern liberals do not, with great frequency, use the canard of "racism" as a sword and a dodge.


And it cannot be seriously argued that modern conservatives do not, with great frequency, use the canard of racial animus as a sword and a dodge.

...if you want to insert a "some" before "modern" in both sentences, then sure - I would accept both as true statements.
   2482. The Good Face Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:00 PM (#4693167)
Yes, the last time you slandered me I asked Jim to remove it. This is true. Your continuing need to slander me is between you and Jim.

How about you both stop slandering each other?


The truth is not slander. That said, I'd be happy to stop if Sam will knock off his defamatory statements about me.

Someone who claims that blacks have genetic traits that make them less intelligent than whites is making a white supremacist claim,


Aside from the fact I have not made that claim, merely claimed that it was a possibility, this is incorrect. Noticing group differences is not a claim to racial supremacy. Otherwise, your absurd definition would also make me an asian supremacist. And a jewish supremacist. And a walking supremacist over people in wheelchairs, etc. It's an foolish definitional error unsurprisingly used by a fool.
   2483. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:04 PM (#4693169)
My critiques of TGF are specifically targeted to the arguments he makes with regard to what must, by any degree of realism, be labeled as standard era "race realism."
   2484. Publius Publicola Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:07 PM (#4693171)
That said, I'd be happy to stop if Sam will knock off his defamatory statements about me.


Model the behavior you expect of others. You can't expect your opponent to behave better than you first.
   2485. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:08 PM (#4693172)
Aside from the fact I have not made that claim, merely claimed that it was a possibility, this is incorrect. Noticing group differences is not a claim to racial supremacy. Otherwise, your absurd definition would also make me an asian supremacist.


If you believe Asians (or Jews) are genetically predisposed to intellectual superiority then, yes, you are an "Asian supremacist." Arguing "but I apply blunt, poorly sourced, often disproved ideas about racial characteristics to Asians and Jews too" doesn't exactly remove the burden of you being a "race realist." And playing the Cavuto game of "I'm just asking the question" doesn't either.
   2486. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:12 PM (#4693176)
Model the behavior you expect of others. You can't expect your opponent to behave better than you first.


Well I am going to apply what I have said in one context to another.

I hold Rickey! in higher regard than GF and think he is in a superior position, so I think Rickey! should make the first move and take the high ground; just like I think Israel should take the high ground (morally speaking) relative to Palestine.

See it all comes together.
   2487. BDC Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:14 PM (#4693178)
Religious/ethnic minorities are basically getting "cleansed" right out of the Sunni world the past generation

Without getting into casting blame for it, a great tragedy of the last 70 years has been the extinction of ancient Jewish communities in Egypt and Iraq and elsewhere – and Shi'ite Iran, too.
   2488. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:15 PM (#4693181)
Noticing group differences is not a claim to racial supremacy.

Sure, but a statement that someone made in the dust-up over The Bell Curve has stuck with me and is still applicable: "Life is not an academic seminar."

What's the point of studying to the ends of the Earth whether whites are, say, 6 IQ points "smarter" than blacks and 6 IQ points "dumber" than Asians? And then widely and loudly publicizing the findings of those studies?

Let's say the differences we observe in sprinting and sports are also present in intelligence. The infintesimal differences in skill between the "9.8 sprinters" and the "10.1 sprinters" would get swallowed up by all the other factors that feed into success in real life -- work ethic, dedication, luck, parenting, school quality, etc., etc. There's literally no chance that racial differences in intelligence are so pronounced that they wouldn't also be similarly swallowed up.

Curiosity about these things doesn't make someone a "racist," by any means -- but nor is it the case that attention must be paid.
   2489. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:16 PM (#4693182)
Yes, Arab Christians have experienced pretty much exactly what Israeli Jews fear.


That's what the Jews really need to hear - Christianists telling them what persecution is like.
   2490. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:16 PM (#4693183)
Ethnic cleansing is a terrible thing. Morally reprehensible and self defeating. They are hurting themselves by reducing their diversity and hurting those they force to move.
   2491. BDC Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:21 PM (#4693187)
Proposed new topic: this animated graphic of the progress of wind power in the US is fascinating to me because of how the growing green in the animation over the past decade or so cuts across red/blue lines on the political map. I wonder why that is. Wind power (if the map is accurate) has been a hit in New York, the upper Midwest, and the West Coast (deep blue regions) but also in Texas (the #1 wind-power state at the moment) and Oklahoma and the deep-red "square states." But there seems to be no wind-power generation in the rest of the South at all. Is there data missing? Does the wind perhaps just not blow in that part of the country? (Rickey! and gef might be able to fill us in.) For that matter Florida is purple enough, and I know they have wind there, but why no power from it? Intriguing, anyway.
   2492. The Good Face Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:24 PM (#4693189)
If you believe Asians (or Jews) are genetically predisposed to intellectual superiority then, yes, you are an "Asian supremacist." Arguing "but I apply blunt, poorly sourced, often disproved ideas about racial characteristics to Asians and Jews too" doesn't exactly remove the burden of you being a "race realist."


I hope you see the irony of you doing exactly what you've accused me of doing in the past; reifying intelligence and making it the be-all, end-all criteria for judging worth.

Also, please note that I made that point without referencing Sam's jew-hatred even once.
   2493. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:27 PM (#4693192)
It cannot seriously be argued that modern liberals do not, with great frequency, use the canard of "racism" as a sword and a dodge.


And it cannot be seriously argued that modern conservatives do not, with great frequency, use the canard of racial animus as a sword and a dodge.

...if you want to insert a "some" before "modern" in both sentences, then sure - I would accept both as true statements.


Are you kidding? If he did that, his entire schtick would evaporate in a blink.
   2494. zenbitz Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:36 PM (#4693201)
How about you both stop slandering each other?


Yes please. You are making me agree with Snapper and it makes us both uncomfortable.
   2495. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:43 PM (#4693206)
Proposed new topic: this animated graphic of the progress of wind power in the US is fascinating to me because of how the growing green in the animation over the past decade or so cuts across red/blue lines on the political map. I wonder why that is. Wind power (if the map is accurate) has been a hit in New York, the upper Midwest, and the West Coast (deep blue regions) but also in Texas (the #1 wind-power state at the moment)

It's unpopular in Dixie for two reasons, one rational and one irrational
1: Much of the "south" is not really physically conducive to wind power.
2: There's a lot of resistance to the idea of wind power in the south because it's seen as a "liberal" thing.

With regard to Texas, Oklahoma etc. the geography is good, and these are states which legally AND culturally will pretty much allow landowners to erect or do anything on their private property that the landowner wants to do, so if someone erects a bunch of wind turbines on their spare acres he's not gonna get much legal or cultural flack.
   2496. Greg K Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:48 PM (#4693209)
There were plenty of optimistic people in the Europe of 1890-1930, too.

Agree with the point, but to nit-pick, I'm not sure optimism was popular on the menu for the latter half of that period.
   2497. formerly dp Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:51 PM (#4693212)
Aside from the fact I have not made that claim, merely claimed that it was a possibility, this is incorrect. Noticing group differences is not a claim to racial supremacy. Otherwise, your absurd definition would also make me an asian supremacist. And a jewish supremacist. And a walking supremacist over people in wheelchairs, etc. It's an foolish definitional error unsurprisingly used by a fool.
Dance dance dance.
   2498. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:53 PM (#4693216)
I hold Rickey! in higher regard than GF


As any right thinking American would...

and think he is in a superior position,


Obviously...

so I think Rickey! should make the first move and take the high ground;


Have you even met me?!

Fine. As I've said numerous times before, I doubt TGF is a virulent racist in his day to day activities. And I suspect that he honestly believes he's just asking "tough questions" and being "open to hard truths" rather than promulgating white supremacy. As I said a few pages back, I think his real driving concern is to be iconoclastic and prove his Outside-The-Cathedral bonafides more than it is to promote racial injustice. But his arguments are suspect, and they are suspect in keeping with 400 years of white supremacist rhetoric on "racial science." And that's a problem.

He has been presented with counter evidence and counter argument again and again, by people who actually do genetics for a living, yet his need to cling to his anti-Cathedral "realist" stance endures. His few cherry picked sources of "supporting data" have been called into question time and again, rationally and with good reason, yet he ignores those questions and doubles down on the certainty of that data time and again. And here also, I don't think it's due to deeply held racial animus, it's just that he's so invested in being an iconoclast "outside the Cathedral" that he refuses to listen to basic science and reason if it comes from "modern liberals."

So, no. I don't think TGF is a virulent racist, in action or deed. I think he clings to the discredited arguments with regard to race and intelligence, and with regard to race and crime, because he's invested in that argument as a bulwark against his hated "modern liberals" and their nefarious "Cathedral" thinking. But with that said, SBB's post @2488 overrides all of that subtlety of meaning and intent and buries it in a tidal wave of actual real world consequence. And again, this is something TGF is simply uninterested in dealing with. He's too invested in his crusade against the "modern liberal" to be worried that he's giving aid and succor to actual virulent racists in the world.
   2499. spike Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:53 PM (#4693217)
2: There's a lot of resistance to the idea of wind power in the south because it's seen as a "liberal" thing.

Anything remotely conservationist (ironic wood root) is seen as a "liberal" thing in the South - The Tennessee Senate (with a little help from the Koch Bros' AFP, natch) just passed a bill BANNING mass transit in Nashville.
   2500. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:55 PM (#4693219)
It cannot seriously be argued that modern liberals Zionists do not, with great frequency, use the canard of "racism" antisemitism as a sword and a dodge.


Are you comfortable with that slightly modified construction as well?
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