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Thursday, April 03, 2014

OTP April 2014: BurstNET Sued for Not Making Equipment Lease Payments

Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: April 03, 2014 at 01:59 PM | 4718 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: 7 million aca signees and counting, i-95 south, nc, politics

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   2701. Publius Publicola Posted: April 25, 2014 at 11:34 AM (#4693964)
If he's going to do it easily the clock is ticking


I think he's going to do it regardless. The May 25 election date is his dropdead date. After that date, the curtain will close on anything he is contemplating so he's going to do it sooner rather than later but certainly before the 25th. He's already provided the excuses of its necessity- to protect the innocent russian ethnics from the western fascist thugs.
   2702. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 25, 2014 at 11:34 AM (#4693965)
If there is an actual shooting war in Ukraine, it will be a catastrophe for Putin regardless of outcome.


Yes.
   2703. Publius Publicola Posted: April 25, 2014 at 11:36 AM (#4693969)
And, as I recall, the Brits gave up pressing people into the Navy because the Americans were grumpy about it.


The Americans were grumpy about the British impressing Anmerican citizens into the British navy.

Don't know why that would be. Real headscratcher.
   2704. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 25, 2014 at 11:39 AM (#4693972)
The Americans were grumpy about the British impressing Anmerican citizens into the British navy.


OT - The Aubrey–Maturin series of books is pretty entertaining and gives a fairly unsympathetic view of the British Navy (all things considered).
   2705. The Good Face Posted: April 25, 2014 at 11:41 AM (#4693975)
He only real difference is that chavs in the 1600s didn't get to write books, and now their visibility is a lot higher due to things like Geordie Shore. If I had to guess, I suspect they're a lot less common now than they were two hundred years ago,


Comparing the British crime statistics of today vs those of the Victorian age, that seems unlikely. You statements smell a lot like Whig History...
   2706. Publius Publicola Posted: April 25, 2014 at 11:45 AM (#4693978)
And here's something for TYC to chew on:

Progressives take Manhattan, and many other U.S. cities

Twenty years ago, half of America’s dozen largest cities had Republican mayors. Today, just one does. Of the 30 largest U.S. cities, 26 have Democratic mayors — the greatest partisan imbalance perhaps since the presidency of James Monroe, when the nation had only one political party.

What’s more, many of these mayors are progressives who came to power by besting more centrist Democratic establishments. New York’s Bill de Blasio is just one of a number of insurgent liberals who won municipal elections last year. Others include Boston’s Martin Walsh, Minneapolis’s Betsy Hodges, Pittsburgh’s Bill Peduto and Seattle’s Ed Murray.


   2707. zonk Posted: April 25, 2014 at 11:51 AM (#4693983)
This whole Cliven Bundy thing just continues to fascinate the hell out of me...

It's like some cross between Frankenstein and a Girls Gone Wild crew that 'accidentally' ended up filming a couple of underage girls by 'mistake'.

Good ol' Cliven keeps doubling down on a 16 against a dealer 10 like the Freedom Jesus his sort thinks he is -- but now to every other network and media outlet on the planet while Fox and company basically go dark on the matter.

Honestly, you couldn't write up a better farce theatrical production that just so perfectly encapsulates everything wrong with modern politics and modern media covering politics.

It's an absolute schadenfreudigasm...
   2708. Mefisto Posted: April 25, 2014 at 11:52 AM (#4693984)
The Brits only gave up impressment after Waterloo. They never conceded the principle, they just had no need for it. By the time of WWI, of course, it would have been impractical as well as foolhardy.
   2709. BrianBrianson Posted: April 25, 2014 at 11:52 AM (#4693985)
Historical crime statistics reflect almost exclusively the method of recording the statistics, and the environs (for instance, people's interest in reporting crimes to the police). Well, and the changes in what is and ain't a crime. I wouldn't line my birdcage with them. Hence "if I had to guess" not "if I had to represent an area of general ignorance as though there were facts that reasonable people could treat as such" - because there ain't any of the latter.
   2710. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 25, 2014 at 11:57 AM (#4693987)
Zonk - I agree. From the whole Government doesn't exist and conservative adulation to the complete train wreck and sudden tumbleweeds and crickets from Fox it has been pretty great.

The right really has to stop making heroes out of loons, mostly because they are a part of the political process and less lunacy would be appreciated. But from an entertainment aspect it has a certain trashy appeal.
   2711. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 25, 2014 at 11:57 AM (#4693988)
Of the 30 largest U.S. cities, 26 have Democratic mayors — the greatest partisan imbalance perhaps since the presidency of James Monroe, when the nation had only one political party.



Not at all surprising. The Republicans went to the 'burbs.
   2712. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 25, 2014 at 11:58 AM (#4693990)
it will be a catastrophe for Putin regardless of outcome. Sharing a border with a country the size and population of Ukraine will guarantee a thoroughly nasty asymmetrical conflict that will suck considerable blood and treasure from Russia for decades.


Unfortunately, historically speaking, the rulers in Moscow have been willing to tolerate that kind of thing to keep unwilling subjects in the fold, Russia's conquest of the Caucaus regions was bloody as hell, and they spent decades after decades repressing revolts- the only extended period when places like Chechnya, Kazakstan, Azerbjan, Turkmenistan, Ingushetia were ever peacefully quiescent towards Moscow was from after Stalin's death till the fall of the USSR
   2713. Ron J2 Posted: April 25, 2014 at 11:59 AM (#4693991)
#2677 DMN did anticipate your point. "[...]they'd only be ties if one of the "5" retire"
   2714. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:01 PM (#4693993)
Historical crime statistics reflect almost exclusively the method of recording the statistics, and the environs


I agree, plus crime is not the end all be all of understanding a society and how wonderful or terrible it was. It is part of the picture, but only part.

I also do love the fact that when I point out violent crime has crashed in the past few decades and this is a great thing and a sign of societal progress, that is not important, but comparing Victorian era crime to current crime, that is totally solid. Oh well.
   2715. JuanGone..except1game Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:04 PM (#4693994)
The right really has to stop making heroes out of loons, mostly because they are a part of the political process and less lunacy would be appreciated. But from an entertainment aspect it has a certain trashy appeal.

I'm not saying that McCain is to blame for all of this as Conservatives have been doing a bit of this for awhile, but I still think that Joe the Plumber was the "Patient Zero" for the modern Conservative anti-hero.
   2716. Greg K Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:06 PM (#4693995)
Comparing the British crime statistics of today vs those of the Victorian age, that seems unlikely. You statements smell a lot like Whig History...

Not my area of expertise but comparing 19th century and 21st century crime statistics is very problematic itself. For instance, British constabularies did publish statistics of "known criminals" in their areas. But as there was no standard definition in some districts anyone who had ever committed a theft was listed, whereas in other districts anyone who was ever known to have accepted "honest work" was removed. Another example is that in Manchester "highway robbery" was defined as robbery which was accompanied by violence to the victim, whether it was in town, in their home, or on the road. Whereas in Liverpool highway robbery had to occur on the road.

Of course the bigger issue is the massive, massive amounts of unreported crime in Victorian Britain...particularly among the lower classes for whom reporting crime was probably a waste of time. Or crime rates could fluctuate on the whim of local enforcement. One example is Bedfordshire in 1869, which saw a 200% increase in arrests for drunken behaviour or vagrancy over 1868. But this was almost purely because of a policy directive to actually clamp down, and not an indication that drunken behaviour had shot up that much.

In general I think quantitative history can be a bit dangerous as on the surface it fosters more certainty than is warranted.

EDIT: I seem I'm late to the historical crime statistics party...I should also note that I brushed up on my Clive Emsley "Crime and Society in England" for this post. His chapter "The Statistical Map" is particularly relevant to the discussion.
   2717. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:06 PM (#4693996)
This whole Cliven Bundy thing just continues to fascinate the hell out of me...

It's like some cross between Frankenstein and a Girls Gone Wild crew that 'accidentally' ended up filming a couple of underage girls by 'mistake'.


You know how you just can't resist looking at an accident scene? You know how most people look away after a peak if there is something really nasty there and don't look back? We're at that stage now, he's an old coot, we get it, he wants to talk, we get it, however, he's got nothing worth saying, can't the media go back to its wall to wall Malaysian Airlines coverage or something?
   2718. zenbitz Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:12 PM (#4694004)
Well, today I learned what a "Chav" was.

What do you suppose the IQ gap is between a Chav and a Scot?? Breeding!
   2719. The Good Face Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:15 PM (#4694009)
I also do love the fact that when I point out violent crime has crashed in the past few decades and this is a great thing and a sign of societal progress, that is not important


Considering "societal progress" created the crime wave in the first place, I'm not sure this merits a cookie.

   2720. Rants Mulliniks Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:17 PM (#4694010)
For those interested, here's a link to Bundy's full interview


This is the transcript of the portion of his speech the NYT conveniently edited. The man is obviously not up on politically correct terminology, but he's not a racist. That term gets thrown around way to casually.

…” and so what I’ve testified to ya’, I was in the WATTS riot, I seen the beginning fire and I seen the last fire. What I seen is civil disturbance. People are not happy, people is thinking they did not have their freedom; they didn’t have these things, and they didn’t have them.

We’ve progressed quite a bit from that day until now, and sure don’t want to go back; we sure don’t want the colored people to go back to that point; we sure don’t want the Mexican people to go back to that point; and we can make a difference right now by taking care of some of these bureaucracies, and do it in a peaceful way.

Let me tell.. talk to you about the Mexicans, and these are just things I know about the negroes. I want to tell you one more thing I know about the negro.

When I go, went, go to Las Vegas, North Las Vegas; and I would see these little government houses, and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids…. and there was always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch. They didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for the kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for the young girls to do.

And because they were basically on government subsidy – so now what do they do? They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never, they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered are they were better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things? Or are they better off under government subsidy?

You know they didn’t get more freedom, uh they got less freedom – they got less family life, and their happiness -you could see it in their faces- they were not happy sitting on that concrete sidewalk. Down there they was probably growing their turnips – so that’s all government, that’s not freedom.

Now, let me talk about the Spanish people. You know I understand that they come over here against our constitution and cross our borders. But they’re here and they’re people – and I’ve worked side-by-side a lot of them.

Don’t tell me they don’t work, and don’t tell me they don’t pay taxes. And don’t tell me they don’t have better family structure than most of us white people. When you see those Mexican families, they’re together, they picnic together, they’re spending their time together, and I’ll tell you in my way of thinking they’re awful nice people.

And we need to have those people join us and be with us…. not, not come to our party.
   2721. Juilin Sandar to Conkling Speedwell (Arjun) Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:17 PM (#4694012)
Of course the bigger issue is the massive, massive amounts of unreported crime in Victorian Britain...particularly among the lower classes for whom reporting crime was probably a waste of time. Or crime rates could fluctuate on the whim of local enforcement.

This type of thing is why there is a link between development and higher crime rates across nations: increased reporting (the first Soares paper does a really good job of justifying this empirically, I think). I have no idea if this is true in the case mentioned (though your reference suggests as much), but it's a major concern when quantitatively comparing crime numbers across nations/eras.

(this should tell you how tired I am of proofing my thesis - I'm posting in OTP! Will probably never do so again)
   2722. OCF Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:22 PM (#4694018)
OK, about Bundy the rancher: whatever claims he's made, when he's made them in court, have lost. He is (and has been for a long time) openly defying an explicit federal court order. A federal enforcement action pursuant to that court order was terminated because he encouraged and allowed a group of armed people to create an intimidating and unsafe environment.

So the question is: why isn't he in jail on a charge of contempt of court? Does that whole concept have no meaning?
   2723. Mefisto Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:25 PM (#4694023)
Rants, I beg you to keep posting Bundy's comments. From now till election day.
   2724. BDC Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:28 PM (#4694027)
Rants, I dunno. The excerpt in #2720 seems to be from somebody who thinks that nice Mexicans have stronger family values, and handle freedom better, than shiftless Negroes. I don't know how to read it any other way. That may not be every white racist's brand of racism, or the most stereotypical one, but how does it not divide people's characters up along racial lines?
   2725. formerly dp Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:30 PM (#4694031)
The man is obviously not up on politically correct terminology, but he's not a racist.
He made essentialist assertions about 'the negro'-- that is pretty much the textbook definition of a racist statement. Can you explain how it isn't?

ETA: I work with a few African-American folks who would be very interested in your explanation. It's a major topic of conversation around the office today.
   2726. Shredder Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:31 PM (#4694035)
but he's not a racist.
Oh he's definitely racist. I don't think he's necessarily a hateful racist. He's not a white supremacist (as in, he's not working toward a goal of white power), but one can be racist without intending to be hurtful. Mostly, though, he's a thief and a kook. His thievery bothers me a lot more than his racism.
   2727. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:33 PM (#4694038)
So the question is: why isn't he in jail on a charge of contempt of court? Does that whole concept have no meaning?

As of last July, 850,000 people who have been ordered deported are still in the U.S. Funny how Dems aren't clamoring for them to be found and deported, let alone jailed.

(Note: I couldn't care less about Bundy. He appears to be a kook and a freeloader.)

***
That may not be every white racist's brand of racism, or the most stereotypical one, but how does it not divide people's characters up along racial lines?
He made essentialist assertions about 'the negro'-- that is pretty much the textbook definition of a racist statement.

Weren't we told, just yesterday, that there's no such thing as race?
   2728. formerly dp Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:34 PM (#4694041)
How mad is Rob Ford at Bundy right now?
   2729. Rants Mulliniks Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:38 PM (#4694044)
I read it as despite having de facto freedom, by many measures blacks aren't any better off now than they were 170 years ago, which is his opinion is the result of a welfare state. I didn't gather that he was advocating slavery in any way.
   2730. zonk Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:39 PM (#4694047)
This is the transcript of the portion of his speech the NYT conveniently edited. The man is obviously not up on politically correct terminology, but he's not a racist. That term gets thrown around way to casually.


That's just silly... Racism doesn't solely come in the form of some virulent lyncher in a robe -- in fact, the strain we're seeing here is worse, more cancerous, more insidious.

It's founded in an ignorance and lack of depth so ingrained in boggles the mind -- i.e., it would be the equivalent of me prescribing how to "fix" an entire class of people, let's say white rural ranchers, based on the very limited experience I have witnessing a bunch of gun-toting folks refusing to follow a law from the 1950s, extended in perpetuity via a Reagan-era executive order, after multiple courts have found the fines valid, and the lawful government has attempted on numerous occasions to peacefully collect the fees.

Anyone with even a nominal knowledge of slavery knows that families most certainly weren't 'kept together' -- quite the opposite, horrific reality.

Is he a patient zero racist? Maybe not... but he's now a virulent carrier of the disease he obviously caught from folks who were, who romanticized the happy negro slave, etc.... and that's BEFORE we into the illogical idea of why exactly a plantation owner, even the kindly myth that doesn't exist, is somehow superior to 'government subsidy'.

But yes - I will say this... While I think Cliven Bundy is a criminal that likely belongs in jail at this point, I don't see him as the 'problem' - he's just an ignorant dupe, which isn't against the law.

I think Jay Bookman in the AJC probably sums it up best...

The issue, in my mind, is that Williamson, Hannity and others have taken advantage of a man of limited intellect, experience and sophistication to serve their own political agendas. Even while acknowledging that Bundy has no legal case, they've pumped him up into their champion, egging him on to engage in armed battle with the federal government, all so that they can enjoy the exhilaration of cordite and bloodshed second hand. It's porno for "patriots," and it's deeply troubling and irresponsible.

To put it in the schoolyard terms that it deserves, it's like goading a dim-witted guy in 7th grade to pick a fight with the strongest guy in the school, the guy that you don't dare fight yourself, just for the entertainment value.
   2731. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:43 PM (#4694056)
That's just silly... Racism doesn't solely come in the form of some virulent lyncher in a robe -- in fact, the strain we're seeing here is worse, more cancerous, more insidious.

LOL. Believing that welfare has resulted in various social pathologies is worse than lynching people?
   2732. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:43 PM (#4694057)
I'm going to stop here because my fingers are tired from cutting and pasting. I didn't keep track but my guess is about 25% of the cases are being decided 5-4, and the breakdown is nearly uniform- the liberals against the conservatives, with Kennedy usually being the swing vote, except for the cases dealing with ACA, where Roberts instead was the swing vote.
I haven't checked the last term or so, but in the recent past, it's been about 20% of cases. And since the Court only hears about 75 cases a year now, that's about 15 cases a year.

(Of the ones you quoted, 4 had the 4 conservatives + Kennedy, and 5 had the 4 liberals + Kennedy, although I'm not sure how that, per se, is relevant. The issue was leaving a vacancy "If Scalia or Kennedy were to die in the next two years," and based on your list, that would leave twelve cases from that session turned into ties -- in other words, not a lot of ties.)

(This is all a static analysis, of course, not taking into account that the composition of the court will determine both what cases are brought, what cases are accepted, and how individual justices vote.)
   2733. Rants Mulliniks Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:44 PM (#4694058)
Listen, I don't know Bundy from a hole in the ground, and some recent reports seem to cast doubt on the time period he's claiming occupation of the lands in question. But I do know that providing a group of people with money and "stuff" over generations, without requiring any accountability on their part, is a recipe for ingrained dependence. It doesn't have a single thing to do with their ethnicity or income level to begin with. The "teach a man to fish" proverb has survived all these years for a reason.
   2734. Mefisto Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:47 PM (#4694061)
by many measures blacks aren't any better off now than they were 170 years ago


There is no such measure. But even if it were true, "government subsidies" would be the very last place to look for an explanation.
   2735. Rants Mulliniks Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:50 PM (#4694064)
"man of limited intellect, experience and sophistication"

Jay Bookman sounds like an elitist to me. Ranching in Nevada can't be very easy, even if you don't have to pay grazing fees.
   2736. Shredder Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:51 PM (#4694066)
It doesn't have a single thing to do with their ethnicity or income level to begin with. The "teach a man to fish" proverb has survived all these years for a reason.
Yet if you're Cliven Bundy, you believe that this dependence is only a problem with "the Negro". He didn't say "let me tell you something about poor people on welfare". He said "Let me tell you one more thing about the Negro...." as if that's problem particular to African Americans. If you don't find that racist, well...
   2737. Publius Publicola Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:51 PM (#4694067)
Re: Bundy. No matter how Republicans try, they will never shake the racist label until they begin to let go of the nativist branch of their party. In other words, the entire ante bellum south.
   2738. zonk Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:51 PM (#4694069)
Listen, I don't know Bundy from a hole in the ground, and some recent reports seem to cast doubt on the time period he's claiming occupation of the lands in question. But I do know that providing a group of people with money and "stuff" over generations, without requiring any accountability on their part, is a recipe for ingrained dependence. It doesn't have a single thing to do with their ethnicity or income level to begin with. The "teach a man to fish" proverb has survived all these years for a reason.


In other words, teach him to pick cotton, keep him in chains, and then give him fish/let him raise subsistence level chickens is better?
   2739. Mefisto Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:52 PM (#4694070)
I do know that providing a group of people with money and "stuff" over generations, without requiring any accountability on their part, is a recipe for ingrained dependence.


I'll be happy to support a retroactive seizure of the Walton and Koch fortunes. No sense letting those deadbeat kids suffer from ingrained dependence.
   2740. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:55 PM (#4694074)
Yet if you're Cliven Bundy, you believe that this dependence is only a problem with "the Negro". He didn't say "let me tell you something about poor people on welfare". He said "here's another thing about the Negro...." as if that's problem particular to African Americans. If you don't find that racist, well...

Yet he also talked up Mexicans. I guess that makes him a Mexican supremacist. One needs a scorecard to keep track of all of the racism and supremacy.
   2741. Shredder Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:55 PM (#4694075)
I do know that providing a group of people with money and "stuff" over generations, without requiring any accountability on their part, is a recipe for ingrained dependence.
For nearly 25 years, I was given money and "stuff" like food, shelter, and clothing, all of it for free, yet today I'm a perfectly independent member of society. My parents must have not have followed that recipe properly.

   2742. Ron J2 Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:56 PM (#4694077)
#2728 Ford is very competitive and will probably feel the need to up his game.

Of course he is running for reelection at the moment. Running a strong second (27%) in an unusually strong and very divided field.
   2743. Publius Publicola Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:57 PM (#4694079)
I read it as despite having de facto freedom, by many measures blacks aren't any better off now than they were 170 years ago


You think that statement makes any sense at all? C'mon, man. That's ############# insane.
   2744. Shredder Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:58 PM (#4694080)
Yet he also talked up Mexicans. I guess that makes him a Mexican supremacist. One needs a scorecard to keep track of all of the racism and supremacy.
Right, because you can't be racist if you don't disparage all races/colors/creeds equally. Really cogent observation, Joek.
   2745. Rants Mulliniks Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:58 PM (#4694081)
#2734

I guess it depends on what your priorities are. For someone who values things like family, health and happiness, long-term subsidization is nothing but destructive. Short-term safety net style programs are fine IMO, but any system that permits lifetime dependence is no good for anyone.
   2746. formerly dp Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:58 PM (#4694083)
I read it as despite having de facto freedom, by many measures blacks aren't any better off now than they were 170 years ago

1) Can you understand how anyone familiar with how godfuckingdamnabominably horrible actual slavery was might resent that statement?
2) Lumping all African-Americans together as possessing a set of essential characteristics is most definitely racist.

That said, I am with zonk in #2730: except for those people who traffic in celebrity gossip-style/clickbait news, his viewpoint isn't worth paying attention to. The right-wing talking heads anointed him their hero far too quickly, and it backfired on them.
   2747. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 25, 2014 at 12:58 PM (#4694084)
The excerpt in #2720 seems to be from somebody who thinks that nice Mexicans have stronger family values, and handle freedom better, than shiftless Negroes.

I thought he said Mexicans ("Spanish people") are better than white people at those things:

Don’t tell me they don’t work, and don’t tell me they don’t pay taxes. And don’t tell me they don’t have better family structure than most of us white people. When you see those Mexican families, they’re together, they picnic together, they’re spending their time together, and I’ll tell you in my way of thinking they’re awful nice people.
   2748. zonk Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:01 PM (#4694087)
"man of limited intellect, experience and sophistication"

Jay Bookman sounds like an elitist to me. Ranching in Nevada can't be very easy, even if you don't have to pay grazing fees.


Neither is living in a poor neighborhood, with rampant crime and poor schools, limited transportation and job opportunities, without copious amounts of open space at your disposal...

What does the difficult of ranching in Nevada have to do with "intellect", "experience" and "sophistication"?

Having been watching this train wreck for a few days now, Bundy doesn't sound very smart to me -- a man who decries "government subsidy" but somehow believes he's entitled to all the free land for cattle grazing he needs or wants demonstrates a fairly evident lack of intellect, at least so far as logical construction goes....

Assuming he 'witnessed' the Watts riots of the 60s or driving by Las Vegas 'ghettos' are both true -- I think that pretty clearly qualifies as 'limited' experience in regards to the 'Negroes'....

And so far as sophistication - well, thinking yourself a patriot in the manner of the founding fathers while either not knowing or not drawing the connection between the actions of say, George Washington during either the Shays or Whiskey rebellion or having this fantastically mythologized view of the slave/slaveholder relationship demonstrates a pretty clear lack of sophistication.

What exactly doesn't make jibe with Bookman's description or makes him an elitist? The fact that he didn't say it more "politically correctly"?
   2749. formerly dp Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:02 PM (#4694089)
Someone who says this:
And I’ve often wondered are they were better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things?
is a ####### idiot, or simply ignorant about the conditions of African slavery in the US. I'm willing to grant that it may be the latter, but it sounds like a combination of the two.
   2750. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:03 PM (#4694091)
Right, because you can't be racist if you don't disparage all races/colors/creeds equally. Really cogent observation, Joek.

You're obviously not illiterate, so you just must be quite dumb. Next time, maybe slow down and actually read the comment to which you're purportedly replying. (Ditto for #2741, which was even dumber.)
   2751. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:06 PM (#4694095)
Someone who says this:
And I’ve often wondered are they were better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things?
is a ####### idiot, or simply ignorant about the conditions of African slavery in the US. I'm willing to grant that it may be the latter, but it sounds like a combination of the two.

Then what does that make Zonk, who just claimed (#2730) that lynching people is a more moderate form of racism than Bundy's comments on dependency?

Sounds like Zonk is "ignorant" of what it was like to be lynched.
   2752. Rants Mulliniks Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:06 PM (#4694096)
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying blacks were better off as slaves than they are now, not by a long shot. But take away the slavery part, and many poor people of that era, white or black, were better off than poor people today.

#2739 - I can agree to that. I grew up next door to two brothers roughly my age. Their father was a university professor who also came from money, and those two boys got anything they ever asked for. If they trashed one video game console or left their bike in the snowbank all winter, no matter, Mommy and Daddy will buy you another one. Shockingly, both are deadbeats today, despite well-intentioned parents.
   2753. Greg K Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:11 PM (#4694100)
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying blacks were better off as slaves than they are now, not by a long shot. But take away the slavery part, and many poor people of that era, white or black, were better off than poor people today.

I don't know, maybe things in North America were vastly different from Britain, but I spent about two years studying 19th century popular protest (things like bread riots, and the 1832 poor laws, as well as the history of the working poor as far back as the Elizabethan period), and I can tell you not once did I think, "these people had it better than the poor today". If I was a time travel consultant I would strenuously advise against a poor client from 2014 swapping with his or her equivalent in 1814.
   2754. Shredder Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:12 PM (#4694103)
You're obviously not illiterate, so you just must be quite dumb
I guess I must. You've certainly put me in my place, Joek.
   2755. Mefisto Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:12 PM (#4694105)
#2739 - I can agree to that.


From previous comments, I expected that you would. You and I actually agree on a number of points. But not on Bundy.

many poor people of that era, white or black, were better off than poor people today.


Or this. Conditions for the poor (leaving slaves aside) in the 1840s were pretty horrific even in the US (and far worse elsewhere). I think you'd be hard pressed to find a measure by which life then was "better".
   2756. Rants Mulliniks Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:14 PM (#4694107)
I know a lot of you guys don't give two shits about the Constitution, but Bundy's argument is that the BLM has no legitimate claim to the public land in Nevada (which stems from the conditions attached to it gaining statehood).

   2757. formerly dp Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:14 PM (#4694109)
#2728 Ford is very competitive and will probably feel the need to up his game.
I'm very excited about this. Guessing that all the major news outlets are pouring money into his campaign.
--
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying blacks were better off as slaves than they are now,
That's awfully enlightened of you. But Bundy is saying they might have been. And that's crazy talk. If you need a reminder of how bad things were, plug "African slave torture" into a Google image search. The revisionist sanitizing of that practice is an ongoing project in the south, and it's dangerous.

--
If I was a time travel consultant
At last, an occupation that can provide full employment for all History PhDs!
   2758. zonk Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:14 PM (#4694110)
I don't know, maybe things in North America were vastly different from Britain, but I spent about two years studying 19th century popular protest (things like bread riots, and the 1832 poor laws, as well as the history of the working poor as far back as the Elizabethan period), and I can tell you not once did I think, "these people had it better than the poor today". If I was a time travel consultant I would strenuously advise against a poor client from 2014 swapping with his or her equivalent in 1814.


Heh... look at that... Even Nieporent gets to join in the liberal circle jerk!

David - take it away...

Explain to the nice people how relative comparisons work...
   2759. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:16 PM (#4694111)
I think you'd be hard pressed to find a measure by which life then was "better".

More intact families, better relations with others in the community, less atomized existence, less need to conspicuously consume, etc.
   2760. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:17 PM (#4694112)
Someone who says this [...] is a ####### idiot, or simply ignorant about the conditions of African slavery in the US. I'm willing to grant that it may be the latter, but it sounds like a combination of the two.
Yes, but while "ignorant idiot" may describe racists, "ignorant idiot" is not the same thing as racist.
   2761. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:18 PM (#4694117)
Or this. Conditions for the poor (leaving slaves aside) in the 1840s were pretty horrific even in the US (and far worse elsewhere). I think you'd be hard pressed to find a measure by which life then was "better".
Conditions for the wealthy were pretty horrific in the 1840s compared to conditions today. In fact, I'd dare say that most "poor" today are better off than the wealthy of the 1840s.
   2762. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:19 PM (#4694118)
... easier to live off-grid and freely, more personal privacy ...
   2763. spike Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:20 PM (#4694121)
   2764. formerly dp Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:21 PM (#4694122)
while "ignorant idiot" may describe racists, "ignorant idiot" is not the same thing as racist.
Granted.

The racist statement was the one that described 'the negro' as possessing a set of essential characteristics derived from their negro-ness.
   2765. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:22 PM (#4694124)
I'm not saying that McCain is to blame for all of this as Conservatives have been doing a bit of this for awhile, but I still think that Joe the Plumber was the "Patient Zero" for the modern Conservative anti-hero.

Oddball "me against the government" types are nothing new in American politics. Chicken salesman Lester Maddox waved an wooden axe handle to "repel" an "invasion" of three darkies in 1964, and was governor of his state by 1967.
   2766. Rants Mulliniks Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:23 PM (#4694125)
#2761 - Again, it depends on your priorities. Personally, I would rather live in a log cabin in the woods, having to hunt and fish and grow my own food, cut my own firewood, etc., than live in downtown anywhere in an apartment and working 9-5 at a job I didn't enjoy. I know its hard for people who's lives revolve around consumerism to understand, but "stuff" doesn't interest me at all.

Edit: a co-worker was telling me his wife (an engineer) has talked about taking a job with her company at one of their offices in Yellowknife or Iqualuit. I can't stand short days and 20 hours a day of darkness in the winter, so for me to move there even for just a year I would need $500k (more than 10x my current salary btw).

   2767. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:23 PM (#4694127)
Conditions for the wealthy were pretty horrific in the 1840s compared to conditions today. In fact, I'd dare say that most "poor" today are better off than the wealthy of the 1840s.
Right. No TV and stuff, but they were tougher. Pitchers used to throw 600 innings and stuff.
   2768. zonk Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:24 PM (#4694129)
I know a lot of you guys don't give two shits about the Constitution, but Bundy's argument is that the BLM has no legitimate claim to the public land in Nevada (which stems from the conditions attached to it gaining statehood).


The Constitution established an executive branch, a federal legislature, a federal courts system, an amendment process, etc.

The congress the constitution clearly blessed created the BLM. The courts the constitution clearly blessed established the supremacy of federal law over state law more than two centuries ago.... and the executive branch to which the BLM belongs has plenty previously enforced collection of fees and taxes that citizens haven't liked -- again, the holy and hallowed George Washington himself led an army and threatened to wipe out a group of distillers who wrongly didn't believe that the constitution gave the feds the right to slap an excise tax on their whiskey.



   2769. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:24 PM (#4694130)
The racist statement was the one that described 'the negro' as possessing a set of essential characteristics derived from their negro-ness.

He made no such claim -- or really anything close to such claim. Nothing he said was deemed by him "essential" to any race.
   2770. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:24 PM (#4694131)
Personally, I would rather live in a log cabin in the woods, having to hunt and fish and grow my own food, cut my own firewood, etc., than live in downtown anywhere in an apartment and working 9-5 at a job I didn't enjoy.
What's stopping you?
   2771. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:25 PM (#4694132)
The racist statement was the one that described 'the negro' as possessing a set of essential characteristics derived from their negro-ness.

He made no such claim -- or really anything close to such claim. Nothing he said was deemed "essential" to any race.
   2772. formerly dp Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:25 PM (#4694133)
From TFA in #2763:
"The issue with Cliven Bundy has absolutely nothing to do with his party, zero," Spicer said. "He is a Nevada rancher that had a beef with the federal government's continued overreach
Awesome.
   2773. BDC Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:27 PM (#4694137)
"ignorant idiot" is not the same thing as racist

I don't like to throw "racist" around myself, but here's someone who uses "the negro" as shorthand for all African-Americans, apparently believes that all African-Americans are sitting around unemployed on porches between abortions, and contrasts them to such useful categories as "the Mexicans" and "us white people." This is more enlightened than Earl Butz on what score exactly?

And no, I don't think it's less racist that he looks favorably on "nice Mexicans" as opposed to "us white people" on some grounds. That's an old racist topos, to swing around and choose a pet minority to idealize and beat others over the head with.

I really think that if you exempt Bundy's screed in #2720 from the term "racist," then you've defined "racism" out of existence. By that standard Hendrik Verwoerd wasn't a racist, he just thought that good fences make good neighbors.
   2774. spike Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:28 PM (#4694139)
Personally, I would rather live in a log cabin in the woods, having to hunt and fish and grow my own food, cut my own firewood, etc., than live in downtown anywhere in an apartment and working 9-5 at a job I didn't enjoy.

Dick Proenneke pulled it off at age 57 in Alaska - surely you could do it, seriously. Why don't you, if this is what you want?
   2775. zonk Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:29 PM (#4694142)
#2761 - Again, it depends on your priorities. Personally, I would rather live in a log cabin in the woods, having to hunt and fish and grow my own food, cut my own firewood, etc., than live in downtown anywhere in an apartment and working 9-5 at a job I didn't enjoy. I know its hard for people who's lives revolve around consumerism to understand, but "stuff" doesn't interest me at all.


But what's stopping you?

Here's 5 acres in New Mexico with trees for sale for just $5000....

Can't speak for the fish and game, but 5 acres is more than enough for subsistence farming.
   2776. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:29 PM (#4694145)
... easier to live off-grid and freely, more personal privacy ...
Two words: No. Antibiotics.
   2777. Rants Mulliniks Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:29 PM (#4694146)
#2770 - if those were my two options, I would choose the former. Luckily I have a few more options than that.
   2778. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:31 PM (#4694153)
Two words: No. Antibiotics.

Longer lives are not necessarily better lives.

There weren't any nuclear bombs then either, or machine guns.

The 1830s-40s were more conducive to libertarian lifestyles and habits of mind than the 2010s, by orders of magnitude.
   2779. formerly dp Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:31 PM (#4694154)
He made no such claim -- or really anything close to such claim. Nothing he said was deemed by him "essential" to any race.
Maybe you missed this part:
I want to tell you one more thing I know about the negro.
"The" is an important word choice there. Not "some"-- "the".
   2780. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:31 PM (#4694155)
#2761 - Again, it depends on your priorities. Personally, I would rather live in a log cabin in the woods, having to hunt and fish and grow my own food, cut my own firewood, etc., than live in downtown anywhere in an apartment and working 9-5 at a job I didn't enjoy. I know its hard for people who's lives revolve around consumerism to understand, but "stuff" doesn't interest me at all.
...he says, presumably via smoke signal.
   2781. Greg K Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:32 PM (#4694157)
... easier to live off-grid and freely, more personal privacy ...

I suppose it depends on the where and the when. In a rural village 200 years ago the concept of personal privacy may not be comprehensible. Everything from courtship, to domestic finances, to how you treated your wife, and whose property was whose, were communal matters.
   2782. Rants Mulliniks Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:33 PM (#4694158)
Honestly guys, I know this doesn't do a thing for my reputation around here, but if anything happened to my wife I most likely would sell my house and move somewhere very rural, if not in complete wilderness.
   2783. BDC Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:33 PM (#4694160)
5 acres in New Mexico with trees

Ah, juniper scrub, the ideal tree for years with four inches of rainfall :)
   2784. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:34 PM (#4694161)
"The" is an important word choice there. Not "some"-- "the".

Oh, I thought you were serious. My mistake.
   2785. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:34 PM (#4694162)
Longer lives are not necessarily better lives.
There weren't any nuclear bombs then either, or machine guns.
Why would that matter? Those things don't kill people, right?
   2786. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:35 PM (#4694164)
Honestly guys, I know this doesn't do a thing for my reputation around here, but if anything happened to my wife I most likely would sell my house and move somewhere very rural, if not in complete wilderness.
Your wife better watch her back.
   2787. Rants Mulliniks Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:35 PM (#4694165)
#2780 - I'm sitting in an office with nothing better to do. You could count on two hands the number of posts I've made here in the last few years from home.
   2788. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:36 PM (#4694166)
There weren't any nuclear bombs then either, or machine guns.

I rarely get machine gunned or nuked in my daily life. I'm not sure how the existence of those things makes life worse.
   2789. Rants Mulliniks Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:36 PM (#4694167)
#2786 - wouldn't it be easier to put me on ignore?
   2790. Greg K Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:37 PM (#4694169)
Two words: No. Antibiotics.

Longer lives are not necessarily better lives.

There weren't any nuclear bombs then either, or machine guns.

I think I'd be hard-pressed to have as good a life as I've had thus far (fingers crossed from some more!) if I had died of cholera at 7 years old.

Every historical era has problems particular to itself. The 19th century could be a cold, unforgiving place to a lot of people, not just slaves.
   2791. BDC Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:40 PM (#4694174)
I'll just say that though there's no way in the lower circles of Hell you'd catch me doing it, the farewell-my-Subaru lifestyle is attainable enough in the 21st century, in part because of the accessibility of a support grid not too far away, and I both know people who've gone that direction and can relate, as a thought experiment anyway. Going partway off the grid does not involve time travel to 1844 :)
   2792. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:41 PM (#4694175)
So the question is: why isn't he in jail on a charge of contempt of court? Does that whole concept have no meaning?


You want another Waco? Or do you think perhaps they should wait for a better time and place to arrest him?

I know a lot of you guys don't give two shits about the Constitution, but Bundy's argument is that the BLM has no legitimate claim to the public land in Nevada (which stems from the conditions attached to it gaining statehood).

Bundy wants free access to land he does not own in order to use resources on that land.


1: After the US Mexico War The US Federal Government owned the vast majority of land in Nevada
2: the U.S. Constitution's Property Clause gives Congress authority over national territory. The Supreme Court has upheld that power as "without limitation."
3; Nevada acknowledged that the Feds owned such lands when they became a state and put it in Nevada's Constitution.
4; he LIED about his family grazing on that land before the BLM began managing it- some rancher and farmers have won land disputes with the BLM on that type of issue- he's aping those successful arguments, but he's been lying to do it.

Bundy is a garden variety anti-tax crank. He's like the loons who claim that if you declare your house to be sovereign territory you no longer have to pay income or property taxes, or who claim that there is a missing (suppressed) Constitutional Amendment barring lawyers from holding political office.
there are issues with the Federal Government owning so much of the public land in the West, and their are issues with how the BLM manages that land and how it can get away with acting arbitrarily- but Bundy is not a good advocate or "face" for that cause, and his arguments regarding the Federal Government are not grounded in the Constitution, they're just completely nuts.
   2793. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:42 PM (#4694177)
#2786 - wouldn't it be easier to put me on ignore?
But then who would get get gold updates from?
   2794. zonk Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:43 PM (#4694179)
Honestly guys, I know this doesn't do a thing for my reputation around here, but if anything happened to my wife I most likely would sell my house and move somewhere very rural, if not in complete wilderness.


I don't find it illogical or damning at all... My dad did precisely that after my mom died -- he's, ironically enough, now out in rural Nevada.

Different strokes for different folks - he likes tooling around in the scrub, being retired, doing a little amateur prospecting, and all the other sorts of things he prefers to occupy himself with. In fact, he loves to brag that he's more or less 'off the grid' -- he constructed a home using a very energy efficient material that both keeps things quite cool no matter how hot it is/warm when the temperature dips at night, he's got solar panels and solar water heater (and I love to tweak him about the fact that liberal subsidies and tax breaks were ultimately what made that such a cost effective option), etc.

I don't begrudge him that at all - and despite the fact that I would hate it myself, the only arguments we ever have over 'social lifestyle' come when he insists I should leave the urban hellhole of Chicago...

Such a lifestyle interests me only so far as a weeklong camping trip goes - I simply prefer the convenience and variety of walking to dinner, a ballgame, a play, etc.

Perhaps I'm in the minority - but the lifestyle derision I've experienced seems more directed at folks like myself who prefer the opposite of a solitary, unencumbered existence.
   2795. Greg K Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:43 PM (#4694180)
Honestly guys, I know this doesn't do a thing for my reputation around here, but if anything happened to my wife I most likely would sell my house and move somewhere very rural, if not in complete wilderness.

Not sure this helps my reputation, but I did sometimes fantasize about faking my own death and then retreating to the family cottage in the woods to live in seclusion. Never seemed practical though...I'd always have to sneak into the woods for long stretches when the family used it for holidays.

My parents more or less use it that way for a month or so every summer. Just hide out in the woods. Though they buy groceries. And they did get the internet up there a couple years ago.

But I'd miss baseball, friends, and research too much.* Though I suppose technically I don't need present society to study the 17th century. I just need for there to have been a society a few hundred years ago.

*And Europa Universalis IV.
   2796. The Good Face Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:44 PM (#4694182)
Every historical era has problems particular to itself. The 19th century could be a cold, unforgiving place to a lot of people, not just slaves.


I think the point some people are making here is that the 21st century can be a cold, unforgiving place to a lot of people as well, just in different ways.
   2797. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:46 PM (#4694187)
Longer lives are not necessarily better lives.

There weren't any nuclear bombs then either, or machine guns.
And how exactly have either of those negatively affected your life?
   2798. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:47 PM (#4694188)
So the question is: why isn't he in jail on a charge of contempt of court? Does that whole concept have no meaning?

You want another Waco? Or do you think perhaps they should wait for a better time and place to arrest him?
So enforcement of law depends on how convenient it is for the law breaker? Bundy's had 20 years to iron this out, and it should be noted that until 1993 he and his family had always been willing to pay grazing fees and buy licenses. It wasn't until BLM tightened grazing restrictions that he decided, \"#### it, I do what I want." The law has to matter at some point, and I would have thought the law-and-order right would get behind this one.

That aside, Bundy inherited his land, his herd, his water rights, and he's claiming to inherit grazing rights as well on property he does not own. For this guy to whine about "the negros" getting entitlements is a bit rich for me.
   2799. BDC Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:47 PM (#4694189)
The 19th century was better than the 21st for Chicago NL fans.
   2800. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 25, 2014 at 01:47 PM (#4694190)
Interesting comments about Bundy at the top of the page. I wonder how many people think he's less of a racist than Doug Glanville? (smile)
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