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Thursday, April 03, 2014

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Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 03, 2014 at 01:59 PM | 4718 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: 7 million aca signees and counting, i-95 south, nc, politics

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   4401. Publius Publicola Posted: May 02, 2014 at 11:12 AM (#4698824)
Would Barack Obama be one? The world waits.


Ray, was Obama elected twice, or appointed twice?

I forget.
   4402. BrianBrianson Posted: May 02, 2014 at 11:22 AM (#4698827)
The question in regard to gender identity questions is simple. Do we require that the individual define themselves as demanded by the majority (i.e. "this is your biological junk, this is how society expects you to perform/behave due to the dint of your biology, so suck it up and be what we tell you to be") or do we require society to acknowledge the internal identity of the person and accommodate that internalized individual self above the social conventions associated with brute biology?


The institution of gender might've made sense in the past, but I think we as a society have grown beyond the need/use for it. I'd let it off at the next stop, if it were up to me.
   4403. Mefisto Posted: May 02, 2014 at 11:23 AM (#4698829)
Would Barack Obama be one?


My recollection is that Obama said he probably did. It's nearly impossible, though, for an outsider to make that claim because we have no idea what his college and law school admissions offices did.
   4404. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 02, 2014 at 11:25 AM (#4698831)
Re gender identity, this is sort of an absurd discussion, because the liberals are trying to hide the forest in the trees.

Boiled down:

A male thinks he's a female. And liberals are arguing that that is not deep mental illness.

   4405. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 02, 2014 at 11:30 AM (#4698834)
The institution of gender might've made sense in the past, but I think we as a society have grown beyond the need/use for it. I'd let it off at the next stop, if it were up to me.

That's pretty silly. The difference and complementarity between male and female are essential, and form the core relationships that are the basis of all society.

Pretending there is no such thing as male and female, in order to make a tiny group of people feel better about their confused identities is foolish, and likely to cause damage among the vast, vast majority that fit these molds with no issues.
   4406. Ron J2 Posted: May 02, 2014 at 11:31 AM (#4698835)
#4404 I never would have felt Chris or Christina Kahrl was mentally ill.
   4407. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 02, 2014 at 11:31 AM (#4698836)
A male thinks he's a female. And liberals are arguing that that is not deep mental illness.


Compared to the very serious people who think a magical sky pixie is watching their every move and will condemn them to eternal torment because a woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat a magic fig, a guy who thinks he's a woman is downright dull.
   4408. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: May 02, 2014 at 11:33 AM (#4698837)
The way things are trending, in a few more years we'll probably have a 1% unemployment rate, only 30 million Americans actually working, and 300 million Americans on permanent welfare.
   4409. Lassus Posted: May 02, 2014 at 11:34 AM (#4698838)
And liberals are arguing that that is not deep mental illness.

And doctor kevin ray knows better.
   4410. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 02, 2014 at 11:38 AM (#4698840)
#4404 I never would have felt Chris or Christina Kahrl was mentally ill.


But it doesn't mean that someone can't function in society.

Your typical homeless person with mental illness can't function in society. That's not this.

And it has apparently worked for her, which is great. Does it work for everyone? No.
   4411. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 02, 2014 at 11:40 AM (#4698842)
while simultaneously claiming that no minority anywhere, ever, has ever benefitted from it.

This is a flat out lie.


You're right; I neglected to mention Clarence Thomas.

But if it's a lie then please name some specific people who have benefitted from it. Would Barack Obama be one? The world waits.


I note that Hit-n-Run Ray never apologized to Shredder for completely misrepresenting his point about affirmative action. He just hopes that nobody will ever notice it.
   4412. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 02, 2014 at 11:41 AM (#4698844)
Compared to the very serious people who think a magical sky pixie is watching their every move and will condemn them to eternal torment because a woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat a magic fig, a guy who thinks he's a woman is downright dull.


Well, I won't defend the silliness of religion, but it's more of a brainwashing/indoctrination thing as opposed to mental illness. (And not all religious people seriously believe in it, anyway, and a large part of it is simply a way to provide structure in one's life and discipline and social connections. Some people need that (the "crutch" that Jesse Ventura spoke about). Others don't.)
   4413. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 02, 2014 at 11:42 AM (#4698845)
Well, I won't defend the silliness of religion


...and yet...
   4414. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 02, 2014 at 11:42 AM (#4698846)
I note that Hit-n-Run Ray never apologized to Shredder for completely misrepresenting his point about affirmative action.


I saw that I was accused of that. I have no idea how I misrepresented him, though. So I ignored your accusation. Now that you've repeated it, feel free to explain.
   4415. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 02, 2014 at 11:43 AM (#4698847)
Well, I won't defend the silliness of religion

...and yet...


And yet I went on to explain that it's different from mental illness.
   4416. Publius Publicola Posted: May 02, 2014 at 11:55 AM (#4698850)
Given how well Obama has done, it's kind of ridiculous to suggest Obama lacked the juice to get into whatever college/law school he applied to.
   4417. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:08 PM (#4698858)
If it were not normal for "gender identity" to match with sex then the matching would be random. We'd see half the people conflicted ("mismatched") and half not.

That's not what we see. Instead, we see a very small fraction of people "mismatched."
   4418. BrianBrianson Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:09 PM (#4698859)
Pretending there is no such thing as male and female, in order to make a tiny group of people feel better about their confused identities is foolish, and likely to cause damage among the vast, vast majority that fit these molds with no issues


Actually, I would imagine that doing away with gender would probably be poorly received by people with gender identities. I'm not particularly suggesting it for their benefit - frankly, I have no idea if they're be better off, worse off, or the same. But essentially nobody fits into their assigned gender without some difficulty/issue, and while there might've been some benefit to gender when you life was laid out for you more or less from birth, we're pretty much past that now. The world is rife with people who got damaged as everyone else tried to cram them into a gender that wasn't a perfect fit, and there doesn't appear to be any upside. Might as well throw it away.

I realise I'm not making the decisions, and we'll probably have to ditch all the religious rubbish we've picked up along the way first. No doubt this'll take a while. There may be a place for some religion going forward; I'm personally working on some sun-worshipping stuff, seeing if I can make it work out. I'll let you know if I do ;)
   4419. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:10 PM (#4698860)
I note that Hit-n-Run Ray never apologized to Shredder for completely misrepresenting his point about affirmative action.

I saw that I was accused of that. I have no idea how I misrepresented him, though.


You wrote that Shredder had claimed that no "no minority anywhere, ever, has ever benefitted from [Affirmative Action]".

Shredder replied
This is a flat out lie
obviously meaning that he had never made any such claim.

You then replied by talking about Clarence Thomas and Barack Obama, again pretending that Shredder had made the claim that he never made. It's typical of the way you distort others' positions to suit your peculiar debating imperatives, and then act amazed and confused when you get called on it.

And again: No liberal has ever pretended that Affirmative Action hasn't helped many minorities at some point along the way. Your claim is complete bullshit, and yet like a trained parrot you continue to repeat it.
   4420. Bitter Mouse Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:17 PM (#4698863)
Actually you can. Insisting you're a woman doesn't make you a woman, any more than insisting you're a kangaroo makes you a kangaroo.


My ex was not insisted they were a man, simply that they thought of themselves as male and felt ill at ease in their own body. Note the difference, they understand the reality of the biology but also understand that for them the biology does not fit.

At that point the choice is to alter their mind, their identity, or alter the body (or suffer I guess). And hey look if you go through years of therapy and eventually determine for themselves and the trained professionals (that are required to sign off on it) that changing the body (through surgery and/or hormone treatments) is the way to go, we let them do that.

None of that is a sign of mental illness.

If it were not normal for "gender identity" to match with sex then the matching would be random. We'd see half the people conflicted ("mismatched") and half not.

That's not what we see. Instead, we see a very small fraction of people "mismatched."


This is really dumb Ray. Random does not mean 50/50. All randomness is not a coin flip. Your casual assumption that all random processes are 50/50 is completely absurd and renders everything else you said moot due to the cancerous stupidity of it. Don't ever go to vegas or study genetics, because your limited view of randomness will cause you no end of problems in those and other fields. Stick to the law.
   4421. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:18 PM (#4698864)
The question is not whether transgender should be treated as a mental illness. It's whether gender reassignment surgery and/or hormone treatments, et al. should be covered as part of a (government subsidized) insurance plan. I personally don't give a flying #### what people do with their gender identity, but I don't want to be paying for it.
   4422. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:19 PM (#4698866)
It is reasonable to suggest that a poor half black kid named Barack May have benefitted from AA considerations when applying to the ivies. If he did, he is an example of where that program worked exceptionally well, as any entrance process that would have denied an obviously talented man such as Obama was broken.
   4423. BDC Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:23 PM (#4698870)
What was fitting for a martial man was dainty and effeminate for an impostor

I guess this continues down to Dukakis in the tank and George W in the flight suit.

Technically neither of them was fronting, I suppose. Dukakis had served in the peacetime Army, and Bush was of course in the Air National Guard. But they did not come across as, shall we say, rhetorically convincing.
   4424. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:25 PM (#4698871)
No business or company of any size worries about how many straight white males it has on its roster; no business or company of any size worries what will happen if it gives a job to a minority over a white male -- in fact, they actively seek to give jobs to minorities over white males. Companies DO shy away from hiring white males over minority candidates. The larger corporations in particular actively shut out white males so that their diversity numbers are in order. If you don't believe me, "Go ask Go ask Go ask" someone in a hiring/firing position at a major corporation. It's also more difficult to fire minority candidates, and companies have to keep documentation of the candidate's problems at work so that they can defend themselves against a discrimination lawsuit later if one occurs.

Just out of curiosity, Ray, how many Partners, Attorneys, Counsel and Patent Professionals do you have in the law firm where you work? And how many of them are African American?
   4425. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:25 PM (#4698872)
My ex was not insisted they were a man, simply that they thought of themselves as male and felt ill at ease in their own body. Note the difference, they understand the reality of the biology but also understand that for them the biology does not fit.

At that point the choice is to alter their mind, their identity, or alter the body (or suffer I guess). And hey look if you go through years of therapy and eventually determine for themselves and the trained professionals (that are required to sign off on it) that changing the body (through surgery and/or hormone treatments) is the way to go, we let them do that.

None of that is a sign of mental illness.


I feel ill at ease in my own body. I was supposed to be 6'2"+ based on those growth charts they use when you're a kid, and was among the tallest kids in my grade for all of my childhood. Then I never really had a growth spurt. This runs in my family - the average height of my grandparents is about 5'1. There's some sort of medical reason for it - its not unheard of among Ashkenazi jews. Because I "should" be taller, I look sort of funny - I have too big a head for my body, my torso is very long but my legs (which apparently do much of the growing during the growth spurt) are very short. Girls have called me "hobbit-like", which was very difficult for my self esteem.

There is no doubt that I would be happier and more comfortable if my height was enhanced to the 6'2" that I "should" have been. And yet, I deal with life, and I don't suggest that others should pay for my surgery to be taller. Note that studies show that my height affected my ability to attract a mate, reduce my expected future earnings, make it less likely that I will be promoted, etc. It comprehensively makes my life worse.

But I "suffer" as I am, not as I fantasize becoming. We all do. Yet we grant special indulgence to the folks who fantasize about being another gender.
   4426. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:29 PM (#4698874)
You wrote that Shredder had claimed that no "no minority anywhere, ever, has ever benefitted from [Affirmative Action]".


I never wrote that Shredder had claimed that. Who's lying now?

And my point was that liberals will concede that AA benefits minorities but that they will never actually identify by name any specific people that AA benefitted.

As evidenced by this thread.
   4427. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:31 PM (#4698875)
At that point the choice is to alter their mind, their identity, or alter the body (or suffer I guess). And hey look if you go through years of therapy and eventually determine for themselves and the trained professionals (that are required to sign off on it) that changing the body (through surgery and/or hormone treatments) is the way to go, we let them do that.

None of that is a sign of mental illness.


It certainly is, and was identified as such by the medical professionals, before ideology interfered with science.
   4428. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:35 PM (#4698877)
Where did you magically find a request that others pay for transition surgeries? The voices in your head?
   4429. Bitter Mouse Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:35 PM (#4698878)
but that they will never actually identify by name any specific people that AA benefitted.


Benefitted relative to where they would have been absent such laws, or in net benefitted so much that it overcomes the disadvantage of their race and in fact ends up advantaging them over non-minorities?
   4430. Bitter Mouse Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:36 PM (#4698879)
It certainly is, and was identified as such by the medical professionals, before ideology interfered with science.


Says statistician and psychologist Ray.
   4431. Monty Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:36 PM (#4698880)
A male thinks he's a female. And liberals are arguing that that is not deep mental illness.


You are a revolting human being.
   4432. Shredder Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:38 PM (#4698882)
I never wrote that Shredder had claimed that. Who's lying now?
Ray either thinks I'm not a liberal, or he has no ability to apply the simplest logic. I'm actually not sure which is more correct, but you're all free to come to your own conclusions.
   4433. Lassus Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:39 PM (#4698883)
There is no doubt that I would be happier and more comfortable if my height was enhanced to the 6'2" that I "should" have been. And yet, I deal with life, and I don't suggest that others should pay for my surgery to be taller. Note that studies show that my height affected my ability to attract a mate, reduce my expected future earnings, make it less likely that I will be promoted, etc. It comprehensively makes my life worse. But I "suffer" as I am, not as I fantasize becoming. We all do. Yet we grant special indulgence to the folks who fantasize about being another gender.

I laughed.
   4434. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:39 PM (#4698884)
Where did you magically find a request that others pay for transition surgeries? The voices in your head?


Is this a serious question?
   4435. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:40 PM (#4698885)
Where did you magically find a request that others pay for transition surgeries? The voices in your head?


If transgender is considered a medical disorder to be treated by gender reassignment, then it follows that gender reassignment should be covered by health insurance, which is going to be subsidized by taxes.
   4436. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:42 PM (#4698889)
A male thinks he's a female. And liberals are arguing that that is not deep mental illness.

You are a revolting human being.


And this is standard fare for not agreeing with liberal ideology: being branded some form of bigot - a racist or a sexist or a homophobe or a transgenderphobe or all of the above.
   4437. GordonShumway Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:44 PM (#4698892)
Given how well Obama has done, it's kind of ridiculous to suggest Obama lacked the juice to get into whatever college/law school he applied to.


I used to think the same way. From what I remember though, David Mariniss’ biography of the President quotes multiple writings by then HLS-student Obama, who while defending affirmative action, stated that he was a beneficiary of Affirmative Action and would not likely have been either accepted into HLS or the Law Review otherwise. As far as I know, no one has refuted or questioned Mariniss’ quotes.

While perhaps Mr. Obama had ulterior motives and may have been stretching the truth, I believe in taking him on his word unless there’s clear evidence disproving him.
   4438. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:47 PM (#4698895)
I never wrote that Shredder had claimed that. Who's lying now?

Again, here's the exchange:

Ray: while simultaneously claiming that no minority anywhere, ever, has ever benefitted from it.

Shredder: This is a flat out lie.

You: You're right; I neglected to mention Clarence Thomas.

But if it's a lie then please name some specific people who have benefitted from it. Would Barack Obama be one? The world waits.


As if Shredder were claiming that no minorities have ever benefited from AA, which he clearly hadn't.

And my point was that liberals will concede that AA benefits minorities but that they will never actually identify by name any specific people that AA benefitted.

Which again is complete BS. Barack Obama and Sonia Sotomayor and Clarence Thomas would be but three obvious examples of AA beneficiaries. They've all said so themselves, though I doubt that even you would want to put them in the undeserving category.
   4439. BDC Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:48 PM (#4698896)
Justice Sotomayor has been pretty upfront about how she benefited:

Sotomayor has said that she is a "product of affirmative action,” and she writes that her accomplishments at Princeton, including receiving the highest prize given to seniors, earning a place in the Phi Beta Kappa honor society, and graduating with highest honors, speak for themselves.

"Yes, I needed help, but once I got there, I worked at it and I proved myself worthy," Sotomayor said at a speaking engagement in San Francisco. She said she wants to tell "people who have been accused of getting in because of special favors not to feel ashamed" of what they achieve on their own.


So there's one. EDIT and there's a Coke to Andy.
   4440. Lassus Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:49 PM (#4698897)
And this is standard fare for not agreeing with liberal ideology: being branded some form of bigot - a racist or a sexist or a homophobe or a transgenderphobe or all of the above.

Except, of course, for many other persons in the thread (Bitter Mouse, Sam, etc.) laying down paragraph after paragraph of measured reasoning and explanation.

Your "standard fare" is willfully false for this thread.
   4441. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:50 PM (#4698898)
Ray either thinks I'm not a liberal, or he has no ability to apply the simplest logic.

The charitable interpretation is that this is just Ray being Ray.

Whether the real Ray is Forrest Gump or Lionel Hutz is the only open question.
   4442. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: May 02, 2014 at 12:53 PM (#4698900)

Except, of course, for many other persons in the thread (Bitter Mouse, Sam, etc.) laying down paragraph after paragraph of measured reasoning and explanation.


Translated to: I agree with what I agree with! And I like it!
   4443. Lassus Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:00 PM (#4698904)
Translated to: I agree with what I agree with! And I like it!

WTF are you even talking about? Ray claimed hysteria and name-calling as the default in response to disagreement after Monty's comment. I pointed out this was not the case, with examples. I can't even figure out what this little shrill rant refers to.
   4444. Mefisto Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:01 PM (#4698906)
And my point was that liberals will concede that AA benefits minorities but that they will never actually identify by name any specific people that AA benefitted.


This is stupid even by your own standards. Decisions on hiring and college admissions are not made in public. Nobody outside the process has any possible way to know if someone actually benefitted or not.

Note that I already made this point (4403), but you continue to "challenge" people on it.
   4445. Shredder Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:01 PM (#4698907)
The charitable interpretation is that this is just Ray being Ray.
It's typical Ray logic. Attribute a position to a large group of individuals, but simultaneously claim that none of the individuals themselves have necessarily taken that position.
   4446. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:07 PM (#4698917)
You are a revolting human being.

I've actually spent some time with Ray. He's not. At all.

Maybe you should ask yourself why the fact that someone disagrees with you on an issue makes you think they are "revolting".

The fact that Ray disagrees with my deeply felt religious beliefs and calls them "silliness", doesn't cause me to brand him as a horrible person.
   4447. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:09 PM (#4698919)
Given how well Obama has done, it's kind of ridiculous to suggest Obama lacked the juice to get into whatever college/law school he applied to.

It isn't ridiculous at all. He's done very well in one area of life; he was underqualified in another. (Which isn't to say he was underqualified to go to law school -- he obviously wasn't -- but he was underqualified to be admitted to Harvard Law School.)

Ted Kennedy was dumb as a tree stump, but was still a many-times-elected influential senator.
   4448. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:11 PM (#4698920)
Elective surgeries are not subsidized. This paranoia.
   4449. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:11 PM (#4698922)
That's because the "preferences" you cite don't make it better to be non-white, non-male; they just make it less bad to be so. You confuse closing the gaps created by privilege with privileging the other.

We can't see that privilege anywhere, and in a lot of places we look exactly the opposite people are being privileged -- but Sam just knows it's there!!!

   4450. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:13 PM (#4698928)
The fact that Ray disagrees with my deeply felt religious beliefs and calls them "silliness", doesn't cause me to brand him as a horrible person.


I will say that if I had been brought up religious, attending church every week, etc etc, I would probably be religious now myself.

But religion wasn't part of my upbringing, which is most likely why I'm not religious now.

   4451. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:17 PM (#4698934)
That's because the "preferences" you cite don't make it better to be non-white, non-male; they just make it less bad to be so. You confuse closing the gaps created by privilege with privileging the other.


We can't see that privilege anywhere, and in a lot of places we look, exactly the opposite people are being privileged -- but Sam just knows it's there!!!

Maybe Ray could reinforce your position by telling us how many Partners, Attorneys, Counsel and Patent Professionals there are in the law firm where he works, and how many of them are African American.
   4452. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:18 PM (#4698938)
Maybe Ray could reinforce your position by telling us how many Partners, Attorneys, Counsel and Patent Professionals there are in the law firm where he works, and how many of them are African American.

Even if there aren't enough for your liking, why would that necessarily result from "privilege"?

You nutjobs seem to think every job is just handed to someone.(*) People compete for these jobs.

(*) Just today, I was walking down the street and I saw a random guy so I said, "Hey there white guy, I'm white too. Here's 30,000 dollars!!"

   4453. Publius Publicola Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:20 PM (#4698940)
Which isn't to say he was underqualified to go to law school -- he obviously wasn't -- but he was underqualified to be admitted to Harvard Law School.


Well, just as obviously he wasn't since he was elected to be president of the Harvard Law Review. They don't give that to someone who can't handle the job:


First Black Elected to Head Harvard's Law Review
By FOX BUTTERFIELD, Special to The New York Times
Published: February 6, 1990

The Harvard Law Review, generally considered the most prestigious in the country, elected the first black president in its 104-year history today. The job is considered the highest student position at Harvard Law School.

The new president of the Review is Barack Obama, a 28-year-old graduate of Columbia University who spent four years heading a community development program for poor blacks on Chicago's South Side before enrolling in law school. His late father, Barack Obama, was a finance minister in Kenya and his mother, Ann Dunham, is an American anthropologist now doing fieldwork in Indonesia. Mr. Obama was born in Hawaii.

''The fact that I've been elected shows a lot of progress,'' Mr. Obama said today in an interview. ''It's encouraging.

''But it's important that stories like mine aren't used to say that everything is O.K. for blacks. You have to remember that for every one of me, there are hundreds or thousands of black students with at least equal talent who don't get a chance,'' he said, alluding to poverty or growing up in a drug environment.


You will note he was elected, not selected.
   4454. Ron J2 Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:21 PM (#4698941)
#4448 SRS (and other elective surgeries) are on the house up here.
   4455. Publius Publicola Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:22 PM (#4698944)
Ted Kennedy was dumb as a tree stump, but was still a many-times-elected influential senator.


If you think Ted Kennedy was dumb, then you don't know what you are talking about. He was envied by his peers for having the best congressional staff in the entire Senate. A dumb person doesn't build a successful organization like that.
   4456. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:23 PM (#4698945)
A dumb person doesn't build a successful organization like that.

Yes he does. Particularly in Washington.

And particularly since he was in such desperate need of one.
   4457. Joe Kehoskie Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:23 PM (#4698946)
Which again is complete BS. Barack Obama and Sonia Sotomayor and Clarence Thomas would be but three obvious examples of AA beneficiaries. They've all said so themselves, though I doubt that even you would want to put them in the undeserving category.

What about Ta-Nehisi Coates? When I stated the obvious with regards to Coates last year, the lefties here went nuts for days.

***
Elective surgeries are not subsidized. This paranoia.

Swing and a miss.
   4458. Publius Publicola Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:29 PM (#4698951)
Yes he does. Particularly in Washington.


LOL. How absurd.
   4459. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:30 PM (#4698952)
Barack Obama and Sonia Sotomayor and Clarence Thomas would be but three obvious examples of AA beneficiaries. They've all said so themselves, though I doubt that even you would want to put them in the undeserving category.

Unless they had class-based obstacles to being able to qualify, I'd put them in the undeserving category without hesitation.

As would you, if you were sincere about your assertion that AA should be class-based, not race-based.
   4460. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:33 PM (#4698954)
If you think Ted Kennedy was dumb, then you don't know what you are talking about. He was envied by his peers for having the best congressional staff in the entire Senate. A dumb person doesn't build a successful organization like that.

He got caught cheating on his Spanish Final at Harvard because he was spotted having lunch at Elsie's while the exam was going on. He wasn't bright.
   4461. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:33 PM (#4698955)
The link from JoeK is about DC, not a federal program (tho it impacts so percentage of potential DC Medicaid recipients.) from the article:

"D.C. Mayor Vincent C. Gray on Thursday announced that the city will recognize gender dysphoria as a medical condition, forcing insurance companies to cover treatments such as gender-reassignment surgery for transgender people.

The coverage extends to all D.C. residents with group or individual health insurance — including the roughly one-third of city residents receiving Medicaid benefits — whose doctors diagnose the condition and for whom treatment is deemed medically necessary."

The important phrase there is "medically necessary." So yes, if a doctor in DC says transition is medically necessary that process is covered as medical insurance. This is not requiring others to pay for transition.
   4462. Joe Kehoskie Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:39 PM (#4698960)
The important phrase there is "medically necessary." So yes, if a doctor in DC says transition is medically necessary that process is covered as medical insurance. This is not requiring others to pay for transition.

Of course it is. They're not paying the full cost themselves, so others are subsidizing it.

Also, the key phrase isn't "medically necessary," because, as far as I'm aware, no doctors perform such surgery unless it's considered "medically necessary" (which designation, as discussed earlier, is probably something of a fait accompli for people who want such surgery).
   4463. BDC Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:40 PM (#4698962)
I'd put them [Obama, Sotomayor, Thomas] in the undeserving category

How do you define "undeserving"? One theory behind AA, as Sotomayor implies, is that it helps find people who will be successful, but would be missed by a hiring or admission process. Have they been unsuccessful? Did they not work hard? Were they continually promoted via tokenism or the Peter Principle – or in Obama's case, elected to state and national legislatures and President that way? Whether or not I agree with Clarence Thomas, and I almost never do, he seems like a thoughtful guy who has had continual success in life.

Or to open up another front, how about George W Bush getting into Yale with a legacy factor at work? Now here's somebody who seems more ignorant than a tortoise, and universally seen as an inept President. Yet even W had some qualities, however far they propelled him out of his depth, that made him continually successful in the baseball business and then in electoral politics. Legacy status or AA can get you in the door, but I doubt it gets you far beyond. And it seems absurd to slot the most successful cases as "undeserving."
   4464. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:43 PM (#4698964)
It's no more subsidized than a c section.
   4465. Bitter Mouse Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:44 PM (#4698966)
I've actually spent some time with Ray. He's not. At all.

Maybe you should ask yourself why the fact that someone disagrees with you on an issue makes you think they are "revolting".


It is not the fact of disagreement that makes him revolting (and for the record I did not say he was). How he comes across, how he frames his argument, his lies, his statistical ignorance, his complete lack of nuance and complete surety that he is a holder of the one true way is, to me at any rate more than a little off putting.

But for example I disagree with you on roughly as many things as I do with Ray, but I don't personally find you off putting at all. It really is not the fact of disagreement (for me at any rate).
   4466. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:46 PM (#4698968)
The important phrase there is "medically necessary."


Indeed. That's why there are no barriers to having these surgeries covered.

Which side are you arguing, again? I've forgotten.
   4467. rr Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:46 PM (#4698969)
I've actually spent some time with Ray. He's not. At all.


You're a guy who places a lot of value on surface civility as your behavior here shows; people who place less value on that and more on other stuff, like belief systems, are going to see Ray somewhat differently than you do. I have heard from lefty Primates who have dealt with him that Ray is a pleasant sort of guy to play pool or softball with, or to watch a baseball game with, and I don't doubt that. Some of the beliefs he expresses here are not what I personally would call "pleasant", however.
   4468. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:47 PM (#4698971)
It's no more subsidized than a c section.


But unlike a C-section, completely unnecessary. No one dies as a result of living under the "wrong gender".
   4469. Joe Kehoskie Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:47 PM (#4698972)
It's no more subsidized than a c section.

Given that gender reassignment surgery costs a hell of a lot more than a C-section, sure it is. Regardless, there probably hasn't been a single case, ever, in which gender reassignment surgery was as "medically necessary" as a C-section.
   4470. Bitter Mouse Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:48 PM (#4698973)
Also, the key phrase isn't "medically necessary," because, as far as I'm aware, no doctors perform such surgery unless it's considered "medically necessary" (which designation, as discussed earlier, is probably something of a fait accompli for people who want such surgery).


I am pretty sure plastic surgery is not medically necessary. There is elective surgery (have a mole removed) and medically necessary surgery (have a cancerous mole removed) that can seem pretty much the same, but they are not (at least as far as billing goes).

For what it is worth the state of the art of gender reassignment surgery (certainly for the money) is not in the US. Thailand is very popular. I have not exactly studied the issue in depth, but as discussed before I have vastly more experience in this area than most of the people commenting.
   4471. Joe Kehoskie Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:51 PM (#4698976)
How do you define "undeserving"?

For purposes of college admissions, simple: Based on test scores and educational achievement.

When Asians need to score in the 98th percentile while blacks need to score in the ~80th percentile, we've gone well past "affirmative action" to active discrimination.
   4472. Bitter Mouse Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:54 PM (#4698983)
But unlike a C-section, completely unnecessary. No one dies as a result of living under the "wrong gender".


I am fairly certain that treatment X is medically necessary only if death is a possibility is not how that term is defined. Thankfully, because that would be a really really stupid way to determine medical necessity. Of course depression (which is a mental illness) doesn't directly lead to people dieing so treating that is perhaps not medically necessary and should never be subsidized. And of course burn treatments and plastic surgery for those should not be treated. Heck a huge percent of things under that ridiculous standard would not be treatred. Again, good thing that is not the standard.

And by the way people do die as a result of living under the wrong gender, or at least it can be a strongly contributing factor in things such as suicide, which last I checked contributed to people dieing.
   4473. Lassus Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:55 PM (#4698986)
The important phrase there is "medically necessary."

Did the thought ever occur to you or Ray that a life of misery might be considered necessary if it was your existence?
   4474. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:57 PM (#4698989)
Some of the beliefs he expresses here are not what I personally would call "pleasant", however.


Gender Identity "Disorder" was called a disorder very recently by medical professionals and still is by various medical professionals. Surely I can't be "unpleasant" for subscribing to that notion (can I?).

People are confusing the issues. It doesn't mean I go up to transgender people and tell them they have a mental disorder. Down Syndrome is a mental disorder but I don't go up to Down Syndrome people and tell them they have a mental disorder. I thought we were discussing the Gender Identity issue in the abstract.
   4475. Bitter Mouse Posted: May 02, 2014 at 01:59 PM (#4698991)
For purposes of college admissions, simple: Based on test scores and educational achievement.

When Asians need to score in the 98th percentile while blacks need to score in the ~80th percentile, we've gone well past "affirmative action" to active discrimination.


If only there were liberals here who had argued for a move from race based to class based affirmative action, then your argument would sound really dumb. Oh yeah we have argued that. Of course we are talking about now, not when Obama was getting into college, when things were less equal than they are now (See, a liberal admitting to progress!).
   4476. Greg K Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:00 PM (#4698993)
And by the way people do die as a result of living under the wrong gender, or at least it can be a strongly contributing factor in things such as suicide, which last I checked contributed to people dieing.

Technically I think "dieing" is something else. Though I did some dieing at a Tool and Die shop for a couple years, and kind of felt like killing myself, so maybe you're not far off.
   4477. Joe Kehoskie Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:01 PM (#4698995)
Bitter Mouse, #4470:

I am pretty sure plastic surgery is not medically necessary.

Bitter Mouse, #4472:

I am fairly certain that treatment X is medically necessary only if death is a possibility is not how that term is defined. Thankfully, because that would be a really really stupid way to determine medical necessity. Of course depression (which is a mental illness) doesn't directly lead to people dieing so treating that is perhaps not medically necessary and should never be subsidized. And of course burn treatments and plastic surgery for those should not be treated. Heck a huge percent of things under that ridiculous standard would not be treatred. Again, good thing that is not the standard.

Quite an argument going on in his head.

***
Did the thought ever occur to you or Ray that a life of misery might be considered necessary if it was your existence?

Why do you draw the line for "life of misery" at gender reassignment surgery? What about people with horrible disfigurations? Scars? Burns? Flat-chested or huge-chested* women? People with big, crooked noses?


(* I know, seems like a feature, but plenty of women have reductions.)
   4478. Bitter Mouse Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:05 PM (#4698998)
Gender Identity "Disorder" was called a disorder very recently by medical professionals and still is by various medical professionals. Surely I can't be "unpleasant" for subscribing to that notion (can I?).


Personally the unpleasant part for me is the broad assumption you make that it was 100% correct before (how it was assigned) and it is wrong now, and that the change was driven purely by ideology.

Trained professionals debate for years when revising the DSM. This is not done on a whim, but rather they make changes as understanding of the issues (medical, psychological, whatever) accumulates. I am not suggesting every change ever made is 100% ideology free, but so what. The original was not pure either.

You may not like where the experts end up on issues, but your cavalier dismissal of that expertise in favor of your "well I thought about it five minutes and it seems obvious to me" is frankly off putting, especially from someone who gets really annoyed when people who are as ignorant about the law as you are on medical subjects opine foolishly regarding the law.
   4479. Joe Kehoskie Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:05 PM (#4698999)
If only there were liberals here who had argued for a move from race based to class based affirmative action, then your argument would sound really dumb. Oh yeah we have argued that. Of course we are talking about now, not when Obama was getting into college, when things were less equal than they are now (See, a liberal admitting to progress!).

Is there a point in here somewhere? Which liberals, in positions of power, are arguing for class-based affirmative action?
   4480. Bitter Mouse Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:07 PM (#4699003)
Why do you draw the line for "life of misery" at gender reassignment surgery? What about people with horrible disfigurations? Scars? Burns? Flat-chested or huge-chested women? People with big, crooked noses?


He doesn't. Medical professionals do. Working with various regulators, insurance types and so on. Almost like it was a complex area that required experience and actual work to understand, as opposed to internet snap JoeK "knowledge".

Technically I think "dieing" is something else.


Heh. My bad. Typing fast, dumb mistake, but sadly not a spelling error and thus not automagically caught.
   4481. Bitter Mouse Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:10 PM (#4699005)
Is there a point in here somewhere? Which liberals, in positions of power, are arguing for class-based affirmative action?


Well you are slow, so let me spell it out. Joe you are on an internet thread and were arguing a strawman position that no one that I know of on this board holds. Everyone (liberal) I can remember ever expressing an opinion about AA as it exists in 2014 thinks it should be transitioned to a class based system or removed altogether.

So your railing about race based AA in 2014 is fairly dumb.
   4482. Joe Kehoskie Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:12 PM (#4699006)
He doesn't. Medical professionals do. Working with various regulators, insurance types and so on. Almost like it was a complex area that required experience and actual work to understand, as opposed to internet snap JoeK "knowledge".

LOL. I guess the people with awful scars and disfigurations should just buck up and enjoy the "privilege" of being cis-gendered.
   4483. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:14 PM (#4699007)
You're a guy who places a lot of value on surface civility as your behavior here shows; people who place less value on that and more on other stuff, like belief systems, are going to see Ray somewhat differently than you do. I have heard from lefty Primates who have dealt with him that Ray is a pleasant sort of guy to play pool or softball with, or to watch a baseball game with, and I don't doubt that. Some of the beliefs he expresses here are not what I personally would call "pleasant", however.

I place a lot of value on treating people with basic human decency; calling someone "revolting" for a political or philosophical disagreement catastrophically fails that test. But, you can't say I don't value belief systems; I have a very strong Traditional Catholic moral/philosophical world view. My point is, I don't denounce as "revolting" people who don't share my world view.

The idea that being in philosophical or moral disagreement with someone makes them a "bad person" is a singularly hideous modern phenomenon.
   4484. The Good Face Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:17 PM (#4699009)
X was not insisting they were a kangaroo, simply that they thought of themselves as a kangaroo and felt ill at ease in their own body.



Fixed that for you. Only difference between that scenario and your wife's is that the state of HtK (human to kangaroo) reassignment surgery is lagging behind that of gender reassignment surgery. Probably due to bigotry and discrimination against Kangaroo-Americans.
   4485. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:17 PM (#4699010)
I love how robinred pops into these threads now not to offer any substantive points, but to render verdicts on how "revolting" or "unpleasant" people are.
   4486. DCA Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:18 PM (#4699011)
Everyone (liberal) I can remember ever expressing an opinion about AA as it exists in 2014 thinks it should be transitioned to a class based system or removed altogether.

Liberal here. I'm pretty sure that race-based AA is preferable to class-based AA. One of the major issues with using "race-blind" qualifications is that these are not actually race-blind but prejudiced against minorities in general, and blacks in particular. It's been repeatedly demonstrated that black with objectively equal qualifications as whites are perceived (unconscious bias) to be less qualified, and that this effect persists when SES is controlled for.
   4487. Joe Kehoskie Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:19 PM (#4699013)
Well you are slow, so let me spell it out. Joe you are on an internet thread and were arguing a strawman position that no one that I know of on this board holds. Everyone (liberal) I can remember ever expressing an opinion about AA as it exists in 2014 thinks it should be transitioned to a class based system or removed altogether.

So your railing about race based AA in 2014 is fairly dumb.

This is hilarious. None of the lefties here would even admit that Ta-Nehisi Coates has benefitted from affirmative action, but now you're pretending the entire debate is a long-settled issue unworthy of mention?
   4488. Bitter Mouse Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:19 PM (#4699014)
LOL. I guess the people with awful scars and disfigurations should just buck up and enjoy the "privilege" of being cis-gendered.


Um, what? People with awful scars and disfigurations often can get medically necessary work done, covered by insurance and/or by Medicare/Medicaid. I am not the one arguing only life saving procedures are needed, that would be others. I think those decisions should be left to the current (imperfect, but hopefully improving) system.
   4489. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:19 PM (#4699015)
Heh. My bad. Typing fast, dumb mistake, but sadly not a spelling error and thus not automagically caught.

#1, you spelled it "dieing" not once, but twice in the same post.
#2, you're wrong; "dieing" is a spelling error and it is caught by the spell-checker, unless you did something stupid like add it to your dictionary.
#3, your post also contains the non-word "treatred", another spelling error which gets flagged by the spell-checker, so most likely your spell-checking isn't turned on or you're ignoring it altogether.
   4490. Greg K Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:22 PM (#4699016)
I never thought I'd say this, but there's actually a fairly interesting conversation going on in the local Toronto sports radio show "Tim and Sid".

Last night P.K. Subban (a black player for the Montreal Canadiens) scored the over-time winner against Boston. Afterwards all sorts of racist nonsense was trending amongst Boston fans on twitter. Subban has historically been a bit of a polarizing figure in that his exuberance is quite often frowned on by traditional hockey people or fans. I'm really surprised, but the show is having a very open-ended, nuanced discussion about race in sports. Don't think there's any way to link it here, but I'm enjoying it so far.
   4491. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:23 PM (#4699017)
Of course we are talking about now, not when Obama was getting into college, when things were less equal than they are now (See, a liberal admitting to progress!).

Uh, no. Obama is about 3 years ahead of me and things weren't really "less equal" then. I know you're trying, but no.

The big, massive improvement was between the early 60s and early 80s. In the precise area we're speaking of, there's been what you would consider regression. People in the early 80s were all for affirmative action, thinking it would work and then become unnecessary. In 2014, people are sick of it (in part because the hoped for progress hasn't materialized) -- which is why you see all the referendums and efforts to end it.

Indeed, this failure of the hoped-for progress to actually happen (*) is the primary factor that has embittered the 2014 modern liberal and made him so shrill and vitriolic. And made him double-down to even more extreme ideas -- the constant harping about "privilege" being one of them -- and proposed measures. You're seeing a lot of that impact in this very thread.

(*) In large part because of the modern liberal's very own excuse-mongering.
   4492. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:24 PM (#4699020)
We can't see that privilege anywhere, and in a lot of places we look, exactly the opposite people are being privileged -- but Sam just knows it's there!!!

Maybe Ray could reinforce your position by telling us how many Partners, Attorneys, Counsel and Patent Professionals there are in the law firm where he works, and how many of them are African American.

Even if there aren't enough for your liking, why would that necessarily result from "privilege"?


I didn't say anything about privilege. I simply asked a question in response to this earlier post of his:

No business or company of any size worries about how many straight white males it has on its roster; no business or company of any size worries what will happen if it gives a job to a minority over a white male -- in fact, they actively seek to give jobs to minorities over white males. Companies DO shy away from hiring white males over minority candidates. The larger corporations in particular actively shut out white males so that their diversity numbers are in order. If you don't believe me, "Go ask Go ask Go ask" someone in a hiring/firing position at a major corporation. It's also more difficult to fire minority candidates, and companies have to keep documentation of the candidate's problems at work so that they can defend themselves against a discrimination lawsuit later if one occurs.


And gee, you'd think that with the government breathing down the neck of businesses and law firms everywhere, forcing them to hire and promote unqualified African Americans, that the person making a comment like this could easily supply some first hand evidence to back up his assertion from his own workplace. But I guess that's too sensitive a question to ask of our resident Asserter-In-Chief.
   4493. Mefisto Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:24 PM (#4699021)
Everyone (liberal) I can remember ever expressing an opinion about AA as it exists in 2014 thinks it should be transitioned to a class based system or removed altogether.


I have no problem with using race as an AA criterion.

Communist fist bump to DCA. However, a sample of 2 doesn't really make much point for the conservatives here. I'm sure I can find 2 people who believe that Obama killed Vince Foster and blamed it on Hilary.
   4494. rr Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:24 PM (#4699022)
I place a lot of value on treating people with basic human decency; calling someone revolting for a political or philosophical disagreement catastrophically fails that test


You are equating "basic human decency" with on-line interpersonal civility and seem to be judging anyone who doesn't get on board with that. There are people who would tell you that many of the views you have stated over the years on this board "catastrophically fail" the "basic human decency" test, no matter how calm your rhetoric may be in expressing them.

As to the part about belief systems, you missed the point. It is fine to say that "I disagree with Ray, but I like him as a guy." But given some of the stuff he says here, I think it is also understandable that some people basically tell him to f-off based on some of his beliefs, even though he may be a "nice guy" in the social sense.

As I have said a few times, at BTF, you pretty much get what you give 95% or so percent of the time, and there is more to showing respect for others than not calling them names or cussing at them. With a very few exceptions (one of which, incidentally, involved Ray and had nothing to do with politics) when people have shitt on me here at BTF it was because I had done the same to them, or did so in repsonse, rather than rising above it.
   4495. Bitter Mouse Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:25 PM (#4699023)
Liberal here. I'm pretty sure that race-based AA is preferable to class-based AA. One of the major issues with using "race-blind" qualifications is that these are not actually race-blind but prejudiced against minorities in general, and blacks in particular. It's been repeatedly demonstrated that black with objectively equal qualifications as whites are perceived (unconscious bias) to be less qualified, and that this effect persists when SES is controlled for.


Fair enough. In a perfect world perhaps, but class based covers those disadvantaged by class as well (and that exists also) and class covers those minorities most in need (BO's children are not likely to need much Affirmative Action to get ahead in life), plus it is much less likely to be removed through actions of the supreme court (IMO).
   4496. Greg K Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:25 PM (#4699024)
#2, you're wrong; "dieing" is a spelling error and it is caught by the spell-checker, unless you did something stupid like add it to your dictionary.

"Dieing" is a word. As I mentioned, that's what I did for a living for a while, dieing.

It's been my experience that spelling isn't a huge priority for Bitter Mouse. To each his own!
   4497. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:27 PM (#4699025)
You're a guy who places a lot of value on surface civility as your behavior here shows; people who place less value on that and more on other stuff, like belief systems, are going to see Ray somewhat differently than you do. I have heard from lefty Primates who have dealt with him that Ray is a pleasant sort of guy to play pool or softball with, or to watch a baseball game with, and I don't doubt that. Some of the beliefs he expresses here are not what I personally would call "pleasant", however.

Furthermore, I believe very strongly that you shouldn't say things or make arguments in these discussions that you wouldn't say if we were having the conversation in person, say in a bar.

I believe Ray would make absolutely the same arguments in person he does on the web. I doubt many of the people who insult him would have the balls to do the same.
   4498. Joe Kehoskie Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:27 PM (#4699026)
Um, what? People with awful scars and disfigurations often can get medically necessary work done, covered by insurance and/or by Medicare/Medicaid. I am not the one arguing only life saving procedures are needed, that would be others. I think those decisions should be left to the current (imperfect, but hopefully improving) system.

No, not really. I'm not aware of any insurance policy that covers breast implants for flat-chested women, while scar revisions are almost always considered elective.

All you're doing, as per usual, is operating from preferences rather than principles, elevating Gender Identity Disorder to a higher place than all sorts of other misery-inducing issues — to use Lassus' description — relating to birth defects, injuries, personal preferences, or even body dysmorphic disorder.
   4499. Bitter Mouse Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:30 PM (#4699027)
Uh, no. Obama is about 3 years ahead of me and things weren't really "less equal" then. I know you're trying, but no.

The big, massive improvement was between the early 60s and early 80s. In the precise area we're speaking of, there's been what you would consider regression. People in the early 80s were all for affirmative action, thinking it would work and then become unneessary. In 2014, people are sick of it (in part because the hoped for progress hasn't materialized) -- which is why you see all the referendums and efforts to end it.

Indeed, this failure of the hoped-for progress to actually happen is the primary factor that has embittered the 2014 modern liberal and made him so shrill and vitriolic. And made him double-down to even more extreme ideas -- the constant harping about "privilege" being one of them -- and proposed measures.


I am pretty sure things are in general better for minorities (in many ways) now than in the 80s. The fact that you are denying progress has nothing to do with me or reality. Did it ever occur to you that the reason people are less enchanted with AA than they were is because it has worked fairly well and hit their personal point where the cost of it and the benefit of it has changed? In other words it was worth it before, but things have changed (partly because it worked) and now they don't feel like it is worth it.

Or you know it could be your oddball theory blaming everything on Modern Liberals.
   4500. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: May 02, 2014 at 02:31 PM (#4699029)
And gee, you'd think that with the government breathing down the neck of businesses and law firms everywhere, forcing them to hire and promote unqualified African Americans, that the person making a comment like this could easily supply some first hand evidence to back up his assertion from his own workplace.

Andy, anyone of mine/Ray's generation with our experiences and career path and employing institutions understands that what Ray says is not even up for debate. It's taken as a given by virtually everyone in the system. Every word he said about it is true in every sense.

You're older than us, applied for college in an era of white privilege, and spent your career as an independent businessman. All due respect, sincerely -- you don't know what you're talking about.
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