Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Thursday, April 03, 2014

OTP April 2014: BurstNET Sued for Not Making Equipment Lease Payments

Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 03, 2014 at 01:59 PM | 4718 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: 7 million aca signees and counting, i-95 south, nc, politics

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 48 of 48 pages ‹ First  < 43 44 45 46 47 48
   4701. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: May 03, 2014 at 04:25 PM (#4699684)
Didn't you mention in another thread that you had inherited approximately 30K? Don't you think that makes a big difference?

I said I may someday inherit something, but it would only be from housing appreciation. Anyone that owned a house in the past generation will pass along some dough to their heirs. Plenty of poor and lower class people own their houses.
   4702. BDC Posted: May 03, 2014 at 04:32 PM (#4699685)
"A much lower percentage of blacks have jobs in 2014 than in 1960 because ... Jim Crow!" is just a downright silly claim (Joe K, #4698 in the April OTP thread)

Agreed, but a much lower percentage of whites have jobs in 2014 than in 1960, so I'm not sure what's happened to them, either :)

Black unemployment has pretty much tracked white unemployment, though at about twice the level, for 50 years. The idea that 50 years of the welfare state has somehow eroded black people's will to work is dubious.

I'll post this over at the new thread too.
   4703. Morty Causa Posted: May 03, 2014 at 04:42 PM (#4699691)
Is your point that all the efforts at reform, including the laws, have been for nothing?
   4704. Joe Kehoskie Posted: May 03, 2014 at 04:43 PM (#4699693)
It's a huge part of American life precisely because it's unconscious. Joe, I don't think you have a consciously racist bone in your body. I doubt anyone on the board does. But the fact remains that it's much harder for someone with a black name to get a call back for a job. The Black unemployment rate is 5% higher than the white unemployment rate. The fact of them matter is that by simply looking the part, it's easier for you and me to get a job and remain employed.

I don't know anyone who got a job by showing up and being white. Indeed, for career-track jobs, it's often a disadvantage to be white, given corporate America's near-universal obsession with diversity.

There are huge gaps in educational attainment between whites and blacks, and even bigger gaps when it comes to having a serious criminal record.* Those two things explain the discrepancy between the white and black unemployment rates far more than racial discrimination.

(* And only part of that gap is due to drug-related crimes.)

That is absolutely one of the central organizing forces in American life.

No way. For something to be an "organizing force," it has to be conscious, and you just said that it's not. Do you believe masses of white employers are consciously discriminating against well-qualified blacks or do you not?
   4705. BDC Posted: May 03, 2014 at 04:45 PM (#4699694)
I got no point, for once; I just got data that seems to contradict someone else's point.

In any case, a single percentage metric is as weak in these debates as batting average is in baseball. Bare unemployment rate says nothing about the quality of that employment.

EDIT: And with that I am moving to May for good :)
   4706. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 03, 2014 at 04:50 PM (#4699697)
As long as people continue to deny the elephant in the room, that black culture places less emphasis on education, the situation will never change.
   4707. Mefisto Posted: May 03, 2014 at 04:52 PM (#4699699)
As long as Ray lies about black people, the situation will never change.
   4708. Joe Kehoskie Posted: May 03, 2014 at 04:54 PM (#4699701)
I got no point, for once; I just got data that seems to contradict someone else's point.

Not really. From what I've read, a higher percentage of blacks had jobs during Jim Crow than whites. Given that the end of Jim Crow brought with it better educational and job-related opportunities for blacks, it seems dubious to blame racism on the negative educational and employment trends among blacks in recent decades.

(I've moved to the May thread, too.)
   4709. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 03, 2014 at 05:03 PM (#4699708)
As long as Ray lies about black people, the situation will never change.


As long as Mefisto lies about about black people, the situation will never change.
   4710. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 03, 2014 at 05:08 PM (#4699711)
There's no relationship between slavery/Jim Crow and the educational achievement of middle/upper-middle suburban black kids. Relative educational underachievement persists even among the offspring of well-off parents.

Rather than paraphrase this Wiki entry, I'll just quote it verbatim:

According to a 2011 study from Pew Research Center, whites possess 20 times more wealth than African Americans and 18 times that of Latinos.[15] Whereas the average white family has accumulated $113,149 of wealth, the typical black household has only accumulated $5,677 in wealth.[15]

As of 1999, whites and blacks similarly situated within the "educational middle class" live in distinct wealth worlds. Whereas educationally middle-class whites possessed $111,000 in median net worth, educationally middle-class black families had only $33,500 dollars; in terms of assets the disparity was $56,000 to $15,000. Looking at only "the occupational middle-class", an equally pronounced gap is visible: middle-class whites had $123,000 in median net worth and $60,000 in median net financial assets compared to $26,500 and $11,200 for middle-class African Americans.[18] Across the various categories that comprise the middle class, white families possess "between three and five times as much wealth as equally achieving black middle class families." For each dollar of income a family earns, white families earn $3.25 in net worth and black families accumulate just under $2 of net worth for each dollar earned.[19]


Of course this couldn't possibly have any effect on educational achievement, since Abe Lincoln was born in a log cabin.

Nobody's saying that culture has nothing to do with educational achievement gaps, but to assign the gaps solely to culture is a huge oversimplification at best, and downright ignorant at worst. The concept of interrelating factors passes over your head like a satellite around the Earth.
   4711. JuanGone..except1game Posted: May 03, 2014 at 05:09 PM (#4699712)
Just in case anyone is using BBTF for legal guidance, at the federal level HUD enforces the housing discrimination statutes, EEOC does employment discrimination.

I was reading something on the EEOC this morning, so it was in my head.

And I love how Joe hasn't even addressed his own point about "past tense" but whatever.

t's a huge part of American life precisely because it's unconscious. Joe, I don't think you have a consciously racist bone in your body. I doubt anyone on the board does. But the fact remains that it's much harder for someone with a black name to get a call back for a job. The Black unemployment rate is 5% higher than the white unemployment rate. The fact of them matter is that by simply looking the part, it's easier for you and me to get a job and remain employed.

I think this is the salient point. Went to a new Comics shop for Free Comics Day this morning. Walked in and said "hi" to the owner, no response. Saw him watching me when I went in the back to look at the trades, but he doesn't say anything again and then averts his eyes when I look at him. Get in line and watch him have minor little pleasant conversations with the 3 customers ahead of me. When I come up, doesn't make eye contact and not a word out of his mouth, but he does notice me enough to grab the comics out of my hands and begin to ring me up. I tell him "no thanks" and just move on.

Does the interaction mean that the guy hates black people. I doubt it. Was it even conscious that he could barely even acknowledge me, maybe so maybe not. Is there a chance that he just happened to not see or here me when I said hi, was admiring my shirt near the trades and felt like he didn't want to say something when I walked to the counter, maybe. But is there at least a chance that his life experiences make it hard for him to see me as the same as his other customers, I'd say yes. Luckily, I'm just buying some comics and not applying to job listing with him. I'm not crying about this, moved on with my day and I'm not submitting an article to Time magazine, but its just one of the ways that life is just generally different.
   4712. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 03, 2014 at 05:13 PM (#4699713)
Nobody's saying that culture has nothing to do with educational achievement gaps,


See Mefisto's #4707.
   4713. Joe Kehoskie Posted: May 03, 2014 at 05:25 PM (#4699715)
And I love how Joe hasn't even addressed his own point about "past tense" but whatever.

Actually, I did, when I said:

Also, my earliest American ancestors came over about a hundred years ago and went right into Pennsylvania's coal mines. No one handed them anything — except, perhaps, a shovel.

Lastly, regarding your point that I "might be a 3/4 African soccer player," sure, that's true, but it doesn't mean much. That's true of anyone, anywhere. But to play along, how many American blacks do you believe wish they had been born in Uganda or Nigeria instead of the U.S.? I doubt the number reaches three digits.

Not sure what else you want, beyond that. Would I be better off today if my grandfather was a Vanderbilt? Probably. Would I be worse off if I had been born in the Ukraine? Probably. None of that means much of anything, though.

Obviously, the U.S. has an ugly history with regards to slavery and Jim Crow, but the former ended 150 years ago and the latter ended 50 years ago. Clearly, racism still exists in American life, but as Donald Sterling just learned, it's not seen as even remotely acceptable. I don't buy into the idea that "white supremacy" is "one of the central organizing forces in American life," and I certainly don't buy into the idea that millions of black kids aren't graduating from high school because their grandparents or great-grandparents were oppressed 50 years ago.

As for the comic-store story, if a guy not saying hello is the extent of modern racism, I'd say the war has been won. Congratulations.
   4714. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 03, 2014 at 05:52 PM (#4699723)
Nobody's saying that culture has nothing to do with educational achievement gaps,

See Mefisto's #4707.


I'll let Mefisto speak to that, but that's not the interpretation I'd put on his comment.

And maybe you'd also like to address the more substantive information about wealth that's in that Wiki entry, information you can also easily find from innumerable other sources. Or would that take too much actual thinking on your part, and an admission that it's not just "culture" that's at work here?
   4715. Joe Kehoskie Posted: May 03, 2014 at 06:03 PM (#4699729)
And maybe you'd also like to address the more substantive information about wealth that's in that Wiki entry, information you can also easily find from innumerable other sources. Or would that take too much actual thinking on your part, and an admission that it's not just "culture" that's at work here?

Hard to accumulate wealth when a large percentage don't graduate from high school and family formation is at record lows.

Also, according to that same study, whites have roughly twice as much wealth, on average, as Asians, but Asians are creaming whites educationally.
   4716. tshipman Posted: May 03, 2014 at 06:04 PM (#4699731)
Hard to accumulate wealth when a large percentage don't graduate from high school and family formation is at record lows.


Yes, but Joe, to my mind, that is a large result of Jim Crow.
   4717. Joe Kehoskie Posted: May 03, 2014 at 06:08 PM (#4699733)
Yes, but Joe, to my mind, that is a large result of Jim Crow.

How so? Creating more and better educational and economic opportunities for blacks resulted in worse educational and economic outcomes?

Blaming Jim Crow for those numbers in 1950 would have made perfect sense. Blaming Jim Crow now seems like the height of absurdity.
   4718. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 03, 2014 at 06:17 PM (#4699739)
I'll let Mefisto speak to that, but that's not the interpretation I'd put on his comment.


I'm sure you wouldn't. And yet I don't see any other interpretation.
   4719. JuanGone..except1game Posted: May 03, 2014 at 06:22 PM (#4699742)
As for the comic-store story, if a guy not saying hello is the extent of modern racism, I'd say the war has been won. Congratulations.

Way to be obtuse and an #######, but that's the minor #### that I or any AA could fill a book with. I wouldn't expect for you to give a #### that I might get treated differently because I'm AA. But, that man owns a store and hires people. He might be on a co-op board. He might be on a local council. Acting as if individual decisions don't eventually add up shows that you lack any perspective. You keep coming here to minimize "modern racism" or whatever that means. People point out through statistics and anecdotes that these attitudes and actions still exist, and you ignore them. Rinse. Repeat.
   4720. Joe Kehoskie Posted: May 03, 2014 at 06:28 PM (#4699747)
Way to be obtuse and an #######, but that's the minor #### that I or any AA could fill a book with.

That's what they said in the Glanville thread, and yet, it was a minor incident that inspired Glanville to call his state senator and the mayor, and write a column for a national outlet. How come he didn't write about a worse incident?

I wouldn't expect for you to give a #### that I might get treated differently because I'm AA. But, that man owns a store and hires people. He might be on a co-op board. He might be on a local council. Acting as if individual decisions don't eventually add up shows that you lack any perspective. You keep coming here to minimize "modern racism" or whatever that means. People point out through statistics and anecdotes that these attitudes and actions still exist, and you ignore them. Rinse. Repeat.

The guy didn't say hello to you. That's it. I'd want a little more than that before assuming the guy is a racist.
   4721. CrosbyBird Posted: May 03, 2014 at 08:23 PM (#4699799)
Furthermore, I believe very strongly that you shouldn't say things or make arguments in these discussions that you wouldn't say if we were having the conversation in person, say in a bar.

That's one place where I agree with you, and I follow that standard. I probably have said worse things in bars than I've said here, given a slightly looser tongue after a couple of drinks.
Page 48 of 48 pages ‹ First  < 43 44 45 46 47 48

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
greenback calls it soccer
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogFan Returns Home Run Ball to Ishikawa; Receives World Series tickets
(60 - 8:40am, Oct 22)
Last: snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster)

NewsblogMike Scioscia, Matt Williams voted top managers
(27 - 8:32am, Oct 22)
Last: Chris Fluit

NewsblogOT: Politics, October 2014: Sunshine, Baseball, and Etch A Sketch: How Politicians Use Analogies
(2901 - 8:29am, Oct 22)
Last: Bitter Mouse

NewsblogHunter Pence responds to Royals fan signs with monster Game 1 | MLB.com
(1 - 8:12am, Oct 22)
Last: Harveys Wallbangers

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 10-22-2014
(1 - 8:06am, Oct 22)
Last: Dan Lee is some pumkins

NewsblogPace-Of-Play Initiatives Get Mixed Reviews In AFL - BaseballAmerica.com
(3 - 7:59am, Oct 22)
Last: Bruce Markusen

NewsblogSielski: A friend fights for ex-Phillie Dick Allen's Hall of Fame induction
(118 - 7:56am, Oct 22)
Last: Harveys Wallbangers

NewsblogOT: Monthly NBA Thread - October 2014
(319 - 7:40am, Oct 22)
Last: HMS Moses Taylor

NewsblogJerome Williams re-signs with Phils
(1 - 7:23am, Oct 22)
Last: steagles

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 2014 Discussion
(21 - 5:50am, Oct 22)
Last: toratoratora

Newsblog2014 WORLD SERIES GAME 1 OMNICHATTER
(603 - 5:01am, Oct 22)
Last: Harveys Wallbangers

NewsblogAs Focus Faded and Losses Piled Up, Royals Change Their Game
(7 - 1:16am, Oct 22)
Last: boteman

NewsblogRoyals’ James Shields passed kidney stone during ALCS but is ready for World Series | The Kansas City Star
(40 - 1:00am, Oct 22)
Last: Roger Freed Is Ready

NewsblogDealing or dueling – what’s a manager to do? | MGL on Baseball
(19 - 12:52am, Oct 22)
Last: Mike Emeigh

NewsblogDombrowski told that Iglesias 'will be fine' for 2015
(21 - 10:22pm, Oct 21)
Last: fra paolo

Page rendered in 0.4209 seconds
52 querie(s) executed