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Sunday, December 02, 2012

OTP December 2012 - Pushing G.O.P. to Negotiate, Obama Ends Giving In

Mr. Obama, scarred by failed negotiations in his first term and emboldened by a clear if close election to a second, has emerged as a different kind of negotiator in the past week or two, sticking to the liberal line and frustrating Republicans on the other side of the bargaining table.

Bitter Mouse Posted: December 02, 2012 at 11:15 PM | 6172 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   101. Langer Monk Posted: December 03, 2012 at 02:38 PM (#4315399)
So is it worth getting into Lost? I ask as another person who's never watched a single episode. As the series went on it started to sound intriguing, but by that point I had missed so much there wasn't much point in jumping in midstream.


Only if you don't care that:

After season 4 it was clear the writers had no idea what they were doing anymore.
   102. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 03, 2012 at 02:39 PM (#4315401)
I'll admit that the humor value of the hated Kenyan Muslim Socialist being followed by the FemiNazi Shrewish Wife of Bill


You forgot lesbian and murderer. Librulbias on display.
   103. McCoy Posted: December 03, 2012 at 02:39 PM (#4315403)
$200 for a mass-produced modern comic book is insane, but hey, that would pay for Xmas this year, by god.

Not sure when the series began really taking off, but a circulation of 4,600 would've been pretty healthy for an indie like Image (still would be, I'm pretty sure, not that I've paid attention to sales figures in a year or so). Nothing spectacular, though.


Apparently the 100th issue had over 383,000 issues printed, strike that, ordered so it's probable that more than 383,000 were printed.

Some other numbers I could find: The April 2012 issue had 37,000 printed and the May issue rose to almost 54,000 printed. Issue #103 which was the October issue which is also the month when the latest season of TWD premiered saw a 39% increase in orders and a little over 73,000 were ordered in North America. TWD #86 which came out in June of 2011 had just over 32,000 orders.

I tried to find some numbers from before the show started. I found for August of 2010 roughly 26,500 were ordered, that month would have been issue #76. Perhaps that was due to the build up to the show as AMC was hyping it pretty hard. So I looked at August of 2009 which would be issue #64 and it had roughly 24,000 orders. A year earlier #51 had 23,000 orders, in 8/07 it had almost 23,000 each for issues 40 and 41 which were both released that month. In 8/06 #30 had 20,500 orders. 8/05 #21 had almost 18,000 orders. For 8/04 I couldn't find the current issue but apparently #8 and #9 had almost 4,000 orders combined that month. Those issues originally came out in May and June. The September sales total does have issue #11 and #12 listed they each had about 13,500 ordered. For July a little over 11,000 issue #9 were ordered and I couldn't find any information on #10. So it looks like that little selling point on EBay about issue #19 only having over 4,000 prints is in error. Looking up may of 2005 I see that there were over 17,000 orders in the US for issue #19.
   104. Srul Itza Posted: December 03, 2012 at 02:40 PM (#4315405)
Does anyone still take the Journal seriously? They're only slightly better than Fox at dull hackery.


The WSJ news coverage has been excellent for a very long time.

The WSJ Editorial pages have been a swamp of radical nonsense for just as long.
   105. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 03, 2012 at 02:44 PM (#4315411)
You forgot lesbian and murderer. Librulbias on display.


When I was writing I knew I was missing something. I even stopped, thought for a few minutes and added "wife of Bill" because I had nothing better and yet I knew there was more there. So it is incompetence and not bias - thank you very much!
   106. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: December 03, 2012 at 02:48 PM (#4315421)
Never saw Lost either. Taped the first few episodes back when it was new & I still had cable, but never got around to watching them. One of these years, I suppose.



They are on netflix. The wife and I had never watched them either until a little over a year ago. It was actually a great viewing experience; no commercials or cliff hangers.


That's basically how I watch all my TV. Yeah, I'm always a season behind, but so what? My Netflix queue is almost all TV: Weeds, Curb, Madmen, Dexter, Eastbound and Down, Sunny in Philly, Justified, Dr. Who, GoT, Parks and Rec, 30 Rock.
   107. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 03, 2012 at 02:50 PM (#4315424)
So, is this thread only interested in American electoral politics, or shall we take a run at Bibi Netenyahu's on-going, slo-motion suicide of the Israeli state?
   108. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 03, 2012 at 02:54 PM (#4315434)
So is it worth getting into Lost?


Watch the first season, and then pretend that it got cancelled after that.

You can stick around for season 2 if you want, as long as you do so in the understanding that you're never going to get any answers on the questions that have been raised, and are willing to put up with the format starting to become stale.
   109. Srul Itza Posted: December 03, 2012 at 02:55 PM (#4315437)
If you can't say something good about someone...

.... you have a home on the internet.
   110. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 03, 2012 at 02:56 PM (#4315440)
TWD comic is a harrowing experience.

I was reading it (digitally) when it first came out.
I don't remember the exact issue I gave up reading it (after they flee the overrun prison and the death of Rick's wife and others), but I simply couldn't bring myself to try and catch up after I missed 4 or 5 issues.

I felt like I needed a shower after reading every second issue.
If it wasn't the zombies chewing on someone, it was the horrors performed by humans on each other. And it was so graphic!

I'm not saying it was bad (I loved it, and was an avid follower of it and "Y The Last Man"), but there was rarely any joy or fun from reading the stories.
   111. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:05 PM (#4315455)
So is it worth getting into Lost?

Watch the first season, and then pretend that it got cancelled after that.

You can stick around for season 2 if you want, as long as you do so in the understanding that you're never going to get any answers on the questions that have been raised, and are willing to put up with the format starting to become stale.


The first two seasons are fun.
The third season REALLY drags, and it reaches its low point with "Stranger in a Strange Land" (Jack's tattoo episode). It was the third episode after the strike (mid February). At that point, the writers announced that the series was going to have a conclusion after 6 seasons, and that they were going to be more focused about the story.
The last episode of season 3 was easily the biggest "HOLY ####!" moment of the series, and one of the best in television.
Season four through six was just them trying to wrap things up, and involved a change in the story-telling (based on the season 3 finale).

I think it's worth watching all the way through, simply because there are a lot of REALLY good episodes throughout the series, either in the current timeline or in the other parts.
   112. hokieneer Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:05 PM (#4315457)
It's well past time for the debt ceiling to just go to the dustbin of history.


In the short term, there isn't much to worry about for the US, but it is a finite process. Plus debts and yearly deficits do consume more resources to debt services that could be more useful than just paying interests.
   113. willcarrolldoesnotsuk Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:08 PM (#4315461)
Yes, the debt ceiling is a totally ridiculous thing. It's essentially "Congress authorizes spending $X on such-and-such, but does not authorize actually getting $X in the first place."

Other countries get along just fine without the silly two-step. Any law that says the government should spend money should either say where that money must come from -- extra taxes, cuts in other programs, quantitative easing, sale of bonds, sale of Mount Rushmore, whatever -- or else the Executive Branch should be able to raise the money in whatever way it sees fit. The fact that Congress said to spend the money is, or at least should be, an implicit authorization to get that money so as to be spent.

The only real purpose for having the debt ceiling is so that it can be used as a political football.
   114. zonk Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:11 PM (#4315464)
So, is this thread only interested in American electoral politics, or shall we take a run at Bibi Netenyahu's on-going, slo-motion suicide of the Israeli state?


He's certainly doing a fine job of uniting Palestinians behind Hamas, as opposed to the more moderate Fatah elements...

Setting aside the possibility of pure stupidity, only a fool doesn't see that Palestinian opinion was coalescing around Hamas with the Gaza flare-up, so seeking UN recognition was the only way for the West Bank moderates to get something to show as an accomplishment.

He's boxing himself - and Israel - in and there's a limit to the slack the US can cut him... to say nothing of the fact that he made a very public bad bet on the outcome of the US Presidential election.
   115. hokieneer Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:13 PM (#4315467)
Yes, the debt ceiling is a totally ridiculous thing. It's essentially "Congress authorizes spending $X on such-and-such, but does not authorize actually getting $X in the first place."


Yes. I realized in my post I didn't address it. The concept of debt is different than the "political football" known as the debt limit. It's just grandstanding.
   116. zonk Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:17 PM (#4315471)
In the short term, there isn't much to worry about for the US, but it is a finite process. Plus debts and yearly deficits do consume more resources to debt services that could be more useful than just paying interests.


But the debt ceiling does nothing to abate that -- unless one considers defaulting a legitimate course of action. Raising the debt ceiling doesn't allocate any spending that congress hasn't already authorized. Again, I suppose there's a bit of wiggle room on war spending - but even then, it's a sissy way out of what would once again be Congress' responsibility to begin with.

Congress has it well within its power to ensure that the US never breaches the debt ceiling again. It has the purse, it decides what we spend out of the purse (including the national credit card)... all the debt ceiling does is force the President (regardless of who control the EO and Congress) to ask congress for permission to make a payment on what Congress alone authorized spending on.
   117. Srul Itza Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:20 PM (#4315476)
From the prior thread, since we are back into Israel:

So the US should get the hell out of Jewish affairs and let Israel deal with the consequences of them doing what they think is a good idea for them? Sounds good to me!


Yes, they should. It would be better for Israel and better for the US, and better for the chances of peace. The US got way too far in because of the efforts to make the Egypt-Israel peace treaty work. They need to find a way out that also includes de-funding Egypt.

   118. hokieneer Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:21 PM (#4315477)
Congress has it well within its power to ensure that the US never breaches the debt ceiling again. It has the purse, it decides what we spend out of the purse (including the national credit card)... all the debt ceiling does is force the President (regardless of who control the EO and Congress) to ask congress for permission to make a payment on what Congress alone authorized spending on.


Yeah I realized I was conflating debt ceiling and actual debt. I guess in my mind I was holding out hope that the "debt ceiling" would actually you know work as a ceiling when budgeting is done.


   119. Srul Itza Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:22 PM (#4315479)
Also from last thread

quote]Speaking as a fellow atheist Jew, I don't think a Jewish state is such a terrible idea. I think creating a Jewish state in Palestine was one of the most insane and counterproductive ideas to be followed through on in modern history. If people feel the need to blame a particular group for the ongoing conflict, I'd go with the brilliant minds that determined that partitioning Palestine wouldn't result in an endless cycle of violence. Had they used even a little bit of common sense or just looked back a few years to see the revolt in the area that arose in part due to Jewish immigration, maybe they'd have looked elsewhere.

So where were you going to put it -- Uganda, like some suggested? Believe it or not, there has been a continuous Jewish presence in that part of the World forever. Israel is a more legitimate name for the area than Palestine.
   120. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:22 PM (#4315480)
I think it's worth watching all the way through, simply because there are a lot of REALLY good episodes throughout the series, either in the current timeline or in the other parts.

The best episodes are pretty much always the Desmond episodes.
   121. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:23 PM (#4315481)
The best episodes are pretty much always the Desmond episodes.


I hear ya, brutha.
   122. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:24 PM (#4315482)
So where were you going to put it -- Uganda, like some suggested?


Bavaria.
   123. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:27 PM (#4315484)

Engineers working for the Assad regime in Syria have begun combining the two chemical precursors needed to weaponize sarin gas, an American official with knowledge of the situation tells Danger Room. International observers are now more worried than they’ve even been that the Damascus government could use its nerve agent stockpile to slaughter its own people.

The U.S. doesn’t know why the Syrian military made the move, which began in the middle of last week and is taking place in central Syria. Nor are they sure why the Assad government is transferring some weapons to different locations within the country, as the New York Times reported on Monday.

All that’s certain is that the arms have now been prepped to be used, should Assad order it.

“Physically, they’ve gotten to the point where the can load it up on a plane and drop it,” the official adds.

Sarin gas has two main chemical components — isopropanol, popularly known as rubbing alcohol, and methylphosphonyl difluoride. The Assad government has more than 500 metric tons of these precursors, which it ordinarily stores separately, in so-called “binary” form, in order to prevent an accidental release of nerve gas.

Last week, that changed. The Syrian military began combining some of the binaries. “They didn’t do it on the whole arsenal, just a modest quantity,” the official says. “We’re not sure what’s the intent.”
   124. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:31 PM (#4315493)
Apparently the 100th issue had over 383,000 issues printed, strike that, ordered so it's probable that more than 383,000 were printed.


That's extremely misleading, though. As a cash-grab, Image put out god knows how many variant covers, so idiot fanboys & speculators wound up grabbing multiple copies of each.

For 8/04 I couldn't find the current issue but apparently #8 and #9 had almost 4,000 orders combined that month. Those issues originally came out in May and June. The September sales total does have issue #11 and #12 listed they each had about 13,500 ordered. For July a little over 11,000 issue #9 were ordered and I couldn't find any information on #10. So it looks like that little selling point on EBay about issue #19 only having over 4,000 prints is in error. Looking up may of 2005 I see that there were over 17,000 orders in the US for issue #19.


Might've been a first-printing/second-printing thing, with the latter being smaller & also commanding a hefty price tag. (Who knows? I remember being pleasantly shocked a few years ago when my 2nd-pressing Child Molesters "Hillside Strangler" 7" brought something like $560 on eBay. I'd had it for years as a throw-in on an eBay lot & had never paid any attention to it. Turns out the 1st & 2nd pressings were each limited to 200 & were both highly sought.)

Anyway, those numbers were very healthy then for an indie & would've been half-decent (though almost certainly not enough to avoid cancellation) for DC or Marvel.

When I was a kid, circulation of 150,000 would've spelled cancellation. These days, 25,000 probably keeps a Big Two title alive.
   125. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:32 PM (#4315494)
Engineers working for the Assad regime in Syria have begun combining the two chemical precursors needed to weaponize sarin gas, an American official with knowledge of the situation tells Danger Room.


Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

WOOHOO PHOTO-OP ON AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER!
   126. McCoy Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:33 PM (#4315496)
This discussion has caused me to think a bunch more about TWD and it caused me to notice a bunch of flaws in the show and especially this last episode.

It appears the writers create these flaws just to make it easier to tell their story. For instance there is the obvious Michonne not saying anything to anyone so that the story can move forward in a suspenseful way. Besides that there are numerous small little things that keep on happening that aren't really realistic but are necessary to create suspense and used as a cheap way to move the story along. Like for example in the last episode it is revealed that there is a hole in the prison that allows Tyreese and the gang to enter the prison so that Carl can find them and lock them up. Yet Rick and the others walked the compound and never noticed this flaw. They try to explain it away in this episode by having Hershel say something like "the walkers got in here somehow" yet all of the zombies inside the prison were either guards or prisoners. Then Rick & the gang get into Woodbury through an open back door that somehow went unnoticed all this time by the Governor and his crew. Even if you wish to argue that the Governor and crew knew about the back door and would use it to sneak survivors into the compound unnoticed it makes little to no sense to leave that door unguarded and unbarricaded. The door exists simply so that Rick and company can get into Woodbury and into a firefight. Then of course once they get into Woodbury they decide they are going to scale the wall to leave Woodbury. Never mind the unguarded back door that they used to get into the town.

Back to Tyreese for a moment. In the cold open we see him and his crew surrounded and about to get overwhelmed by the walkers. How? They've survived for almost a year out there with the walkers and how in the world are the walkers right on top of them like that? Then of course one of them gets bit and again I have to ask how. Why in the world are they all wearing almost no protective clothing and how are they letting walkers surround them and get on top of them like that?

Then we got the episode earlier in the season where the Governor comes upon the national guard. In that episode we have an armed group of men that have stayed a coherent force for almost a year and they put up absolutely no defenses and are totally unprepared to defend themselves from anyone or anything. Again just a convenient way to show how evil the Governor is.

Finally in this episode we have the Governor deciding to attack the prison and wipe out Rick and company. He decides this before Rick attacks the town so his plan wasn't created as revenge or as a form of control or protection on his own town. He simply knows there are some survivors out there and he wants them dead. Why? We've already discovered that the Governor brings survivors into the fold so why does he wish to kill these particular survivors? Again, it exists simply so we have tension and drama. It is lazy writing.
   127. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:37 PM (#4315505)
So where were you going to put it -- Uganda, like some suggested? Believe it or not, there has been a continuous Jewish presence in that part of the World forever. Israel is a more legitimate name for the area than Palestine.


One would think that a Jewish state created out of whole cloth, more or less because Europeans and westerners felt guilty as all hell about the Holocaust, should have gone into, say, Prague.
   128. McCoy Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:39 PM (#4315507)
Might've been a first-printing/second-printing thing, with the latter being smaller. Anyway, those numbers were very healthy then for an indie & would've been half-decent (though almost certainly not enough to avoid cancellation) for DC or Marvel.

When I was a kid, circulation of 150,000 would've spelled cancellation. These days, 25,000 probably keeps a Big Two title alive.


Pre TV-show their orders put them solidy in mid to lower mid tier for sales. With the upper tier comics absolutely dwarfing Walking Dead's numbers. Once the show got up and running the comic book has moved up into the bottom half of the upper tier at times and solidly upper mid tier the rest of the time.
   129. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:40 PM (#4315509)
Where are you getting your sales figures? I'm not disputing them in any way, shape or form; I'd just like to look them over for my own entertainment.

When it came out, I remember Dark Horse's Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season 8 being a pretty solid seller. I'm wondering how the numbers held out over the course of the series, & how Season 9 is faring.
   130. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:41 PM (#4315510)
I stopped watching TWD after season 1 because it was getting really sloppy and boring. It went from interesting zombie flick to The Real Housewives of Walker Country.
   131. Greg K Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:42 PM (#4315513)
I think it's worth watching all the way through, simply because there are a lot of REALLY good episodes throughout the series, either in the current timeline or in the other parts.

This is my take. There's a lot of excellent in there, I'd hesitate to warn anyone off of it just because it unravels at the end.

My major problem with the final season is that they did too much explaining of previous plot mysteries. I don't think we needed to spend a whole episode explaining who Richard was. Or a whole episode documenting Jacob's childhood. It seemed like it took away from more interesting issues, especially with how rushed the conclusions to Sayid, Sun and Jin's stories seemed. For all it's other faults, upon reflection I enjoyed how season 5 ended conceptually. Juliet ends up causing the problem on the island she had been brought to fix. They don't belabour the point it's just sub-text. In season six a lot of time was wasted hand-holding viewers and explaining things in an unentertaining way.

I don't really get the complaint that nothing is explained. Walt was clearly a plot dead-end that the writers just gave up on...and there is a handful of junk in the final season (The samurai and the hippy?) that seems tossed in there purely to be weird and spooky...but I can't really think of many issues from the first few seasons that aren't resolved (or for which resolutions can't be guessed at based on later developments).

Also, recommending just season one (mentioned upthread) is unbelievable to me as you would miss out on Henry Gale.
   132. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:44 PM (#4315517)
Then we got the episode earlier in the season where the Governor comes upon the national guard. In that episode we have an armed group of men that have stayed a coherent force for almost a year and they put up absolutely no defenses and are totally unprepared to defend themselves from anyone or anything. Again just a convenient way to show how evil the Governor is.


I screamed at the TV after this scene. I don't think the Guardsmen even got a shot off.
   133. Lassus Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:45 PM (#4315520)
Re the entirety of 126:

Why I'm not buying the "Good writing takes time" argument as a reason for The Walking Dead's break.
   134. McCoy Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:48 PM (#4315524)
Where are you getting your sales figures? I'm not disputing them in any way, shape or form; I'd just like to look them over for my own entertainment.

Comicbookpage.com
   135. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:54 PM (#4315530)
Cool -- thanks!
   136. McCoy Posted: December 03, 2012 at 03:55 PM (#4315532)
Why I'm not buying the "Good writing takes time" argument as a reason for The Walking Dead's break.

I don't think it is just about writing. I think it is also abut the fact that the cable dramas are expensive to film and edit and are generally shot on location. Since they are so expensive to shoot the network can't afford to buy 22 episodes and so the network has to break the shows up to fit into their sweeps week periods. But the writing still plays a part as the cable shows tend to be created small little production companies instead the big boys. Look at stuff like Archer and stuff on the cartoon network. That stuff is made by little production companies and are often written by a very small group of people. I can't remember if it was last season or the season before that but F/X had ordered I think 16 episodes of Archer but the producers couldn't pull that off and instead they settled on 13 episodes; a 3 part mini series at the beginning of the season and then a 10 episode season after that.
   137. Srul Itza Posted: December 03, 2012 at 04:01 PM (#4315540)
One would think that a Jewish state created out of whole cloth, more or less because Europeans and westerners felt guilty as all hell about the Holocaust


Since the premise is false, all the rest is false.
   138. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 03, 2012 at 04:02 PM (#4315542)
Gonfalon, those 2012 and 2004 Wall St. Journal editorials on "mandates" (or the lack of them) you posted in #78 are absolutely priceless. I've saved them as future ammunition for anytime anyone tries to pretend that Bartley's ghost is anything other than a Republican steam calliope.

------------------------------------------

I just can't imagine someone with Hillary Clinton's ambition and sense of history being able to turn down one last shot at the White House.


This has to be it. Taking the optimistic view that humanity is still around 500 years+, first female President of the USA is immortality. I'd be truly stunned if she passes up the opportunity.

That's so screamingly obvious that I can't believe that with a half-decent economy, anything short of a combination of MS and quadriplegia would ever stop her from running.

------------------------------------------

I'll admit that the humor value of the hated Kenyan Muslim Socialist being followed by the FemiNazi Shrewish Wife of Bill (and the attendent anger fest that would follow) would amuse me no end. At this point it kind of looks like any D elected will face some hate, but you have to think the HRC hate (having fermented 20+ years) would be exceptionally strong.

That anti-Hillary campaign would produce a combination of sexist bombast and senior moments that would make Birther rhetoric sound like the Constitutional Convention by comparison.
   139. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 03, 2012 at 04:04 PM (#4315545)
Since the premise is false, all the rest is false.


?
   140. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 03, 2012 at 04:07 PM (#4315549)
One would think that a Jewish state created out of whole cloth, more or less because Europeans and westerners felt guilty as all hell about the Holocaust, should have gone into, say, Prague.

Of course the most fitting place for a Jewish state would have been Germany itself, not that that would have gone down any better with the Jews than with the Germans.

Of course when you think about it, the Germans might not even have noticed, since from 1933 to 1945 they'd already exhibited a remarkable capacity for not seeing what was taking place right under their noses.
   141. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 03, 2012 at 04:12 PM (#4315556)
Of course the most fitting place for a Jewish state would have been Germany itself, not that that would have gone down any better with the Jews than with the Germans.


Somewhere in Eastern Europe, obviously. The entire 'we fell so very bad about them mean old Germans and their crimes against humanity that we're willing to give you this land that we don't live on' gambit was...well. It seems to have worked for Europe.
   142. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 03, 2012 at 04:18 PM (#4315561)
?

I think he meant that the Zionist movement and the Balfour Declaration predated the Holocaust, rendering your modish hypothesis ludicrous.
   143. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 03, 2012 at 04:18 PM (#4315562)
Somewhere in Eastern Europe, obviously.


I hear the Balkans are available.
   144. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 03, 2012 at 04:21 PM (#4315565)
Somewhere in Eastern Europe, obviously. The entire 'we fell so very bad about them mean old Germans and their crimes against humanity that we're willing to give you this land that we don't live on' gambit was...well. It seems to have worked for Europe.

... why not double down on the stupid and illiterate???
   145. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: December 03, 2012 at 04:23 PM (#4315568)
Or he's asserting that the Holocaust never happened ... but since the poster in question is Srul, I'm pretty confident that he's sane.
   146. zonk Posted: December 03, 2012 at 04:24 PM (#4315571)
The GOP has made a counter-offer on the fiscal cliff...

- 800 billion in "new revenue" (through unspecified loophole closures, which pointedly, do not have any wording about targeted loophole cutting)

- 900 billion in Medicare/Medicaid/Social Security cuts

- 300 billion in other spending cuts.

Heh... nice of the GOP to put their Medicare/Social Security cut proposals on paper!
   147. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 03, 2012 at 04:24 PM (#4315573)
What the Holocaust did is turn the Zionist movement from something supported by a small minority of Jews into one with widespread support. It was clear by 1945 that Jews could have no confidence that their rights would be respected in Europe, so they would need to find somewhere else to live. Palestine had the advantage of a) already having a Jewish settler movement and b) being the one place on Earth that Jews all over had a visceral connection to.
   148. DL from MN Posted: December 03, 2012 at 04:29 PM (#4315577)
Now the Democrats can determine whether they like the GOP offer or what will happen by default. My guess is they prefer what they already have.
   149. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 03, 2012 at 04:39 PM (#4315586)
Now the Democrats can determine whether they like the GOP offer


except for the

through unspecified loophole closures


Yeah, for me I'll wait for something to actually respond to. And Including Social Security is silly.
   150. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 03, 2012 at 04:47 PM (#4315597)
... why not double down on the stupid and illiterate???


Again, ?

Are you suggesting that the creation of the Israeli state in 1948 was not driven by European guilt after the Holocaust?
   151. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 03, 2012 at 04:49 PM (#4315602)
I think he meant that the Zionist movement and the Balfour Declaration predated the Holocaust, rendering your modish hypothesis ludicrous.


Many things predate the thing that eventually turns them from pie-in-the-sky dreams to things-other-nations-help-happen-in-the-world.
   152. zonk Posted: December 03, 2012 at 04:52 PM (#4315604)

Many things predate the thing that eventually turns them from pie-in-the-sky dreams to things-other-nations-help-happen-in-the-world.


If only FDR had allowed the British to wind down their empire as they intended!
   153. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 03, 2012 at 04:53 PM (#4315605)
Pre TV-show their orders put them solidy in mid to lower mid tier for sales. With the upper tier comics absolutely dwarfing Walking Dead's numbers.


That's how it goes when you're published by a company other than the big two.
   154. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 03, 2012 at 04:59 PM (#4315609)
If only FDR had allowed the British to wind down their empire as they intended!


I'm losing the argument in the snark here. What would have happened in that counterfactual?
   155. McCoy Posted: December 03, 2012 at 05:00 PM (#4315610)
What the Holocaust did is turn the Zionist movement from something supported by a small minority of Jews into one with widespread support. It was clear by 1945 that Jews could have no confidence that their rights would be respected in Europe, so they would need to find somewhere else to live. Palestine had the advantage of a) already having a Jewish settler movement and b) being the one place on Earth that Jews all over had a visceral connection to.

England should have given the Jews Tasmania instead of Palestine.
   156. McCoy Posted: December 03, 2012 at 05:08 PM (#4315617)
Are you suggesting that the creation of the Israeli state in 1948 was not driven by European guilt after the Holocaust?

The Jews were fighting the British in Palestine, the British had enough between all the fighting between the Jews and Arabs and decided to pull out and dump the problem on the UN. The UN came up with a plan to split up Palestine that if the Arabs hadn't hated the Jews so much could have worked. So the Arabs attack and invade Palestine.

The Israeli state was in the works for decades by the time WW2 ended and with or without the Holocaust there would be a Jewish state in the middle east.
   157. McCoy Posted: December 03, 2012 at 05:10 PM (#4315619)
Got a free Ipad 2 the other day and I just have to say Apple really did make these things for retards. I wish they had a setting for people that actually know what they are doing.
   158. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 03, 2012 at 05:11 PM (#4315621)
It's not a computer.
   159. McCoy Posted: December 03, 2012 at 05:21 PM (#4315635)
I wasn't expecting it to be one. File sharing is a pain in the butt on it compared to other devices I've used and having no HDMI or USB ports seems rather stupid to me.

The main focus seems to be to get people to buy Apple products using Apple licensed software rather than here is a useful device that makes your life easier.
   160. The District Attorney Posted: December 03, 2012 at 05:23 PM (#4315637)
Holy crap, this is the most Brian Schweitzer discussion I've ever seen. I thought I was the only non-Montanan who had ever heard of him when I was touting him for VP in '08!

So, yeah, I think he'd be a good national candidate, but of course he'd have to overcome an initial extreme lack of name recognition. I do think Hillary will run and be the prohibitive favorite. Of course, we've heard that one before. (I also think Biden will run. I'm not sure who exactly would prefer him to Hillary, but just the fact that he'll have been VP for eight years would make him a heavyweight in a primary.)

Re: Lost: The first and worst stumbling point was when the three main characters were locked in cages for flippin' forever (I think this is the beginning of season 2). Those episodes were unwatchable. It did return to form after that, so if you are committed to seeing it through, don't let that period stop you -- because you will certainly be tempted.

Ultimately, although the showrunners dispute it, I think that they tended to write mysteries and "big moments" without a long-term plan. If I'm right about that, then it's almost impossible that the show could work out well. It is exceptional in terms of being an ambitious, big-budget TV extravaganza the likes of which we will very rarely see, and there's a lot of good acting, but I don't ultimately think it's a great artistic achievement.

Re: The Walking Dead: I'd argue that the video game is its best incarnation.

Re: Israel: I don't think Netanyahu seriously wants a two-state solution, and although the US could theoretically put immense pressure on Israel if it wanted to, that is never going to happen. So, I agree it's up to the Israelis to decide for themselves whether or not Netanyahu is leading them down the right path.
   161. Tilden Katz Posted: December 03, 2012 at 05:29 PM (#4315646)
Re: Lost: The first and worst stumbling point when the three main characters were locked in cages for flippin' forever (I think this is the beginning of season 2). Those episodes were unwatchable. It did return to form after that, so if you are committed to seeing it through, don't let that period stop you -- because you will certainly be tempted.


Beginning of Season 3. Just before the absolute nadir of the Jack tattoo origin story referenced above.
   162. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 03, 2012 at 05:35 PM (#4315651)
Are you suggesting that the creation of the Israeli state in 1948 was not driven by European guilt after the Holocaust?


recognition of a Jewish state was driven by by European guilt after the Holocaust.

The creation of said state was driven by Jews themselves, many of whom were refugees

The areas that were to form the Jewish Country under the UN's partition plan were already majority Jewish before such declaration-
BTW you are aware that Israel was not the only "country" in the region gerrymandered by the Europeans in order to given a non-muslim group a majority- Lebanon's borders were drawn with the intent of creating a Christian majority country...





   163. Ron J2 Posted: December 03, 2012 at 05:38 PM (#4315655)
Somewhere in Eastern Europe, obviously.


Dunno. I'm sort of partial to the 16th century proposal -- Cyprus. Solves the dispute between the Greeks and Turks at the same time. What could possibly go wrong?
   164. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 03, 2012 at 05:48 PM (#4315668)

I wasn't expecting it to be one. File sharing is a pain in the butt on it compared to other devices I've used and having no HDMI or USB ports seems rather stupid to me.


Dropbox is great for filesharing. Works cross-platform.
   165. zonk Posted: December 03, 2012 at 05:48 PM (#4315669)
Got a free Ipad 2 the other day and I just have to say Apple really did make these things for retards. I wish they had a setting for people that actually know what they are doing.

* * *
It's not a computer.

* * *

I wasn't expecting it to be one. File sharing is a pain in the butt on it compared to other devices I've used and having no HDMI or USB ports seems rather stupid to me.


Coincidentally, a colleague/higher up with whom I've got an on-running dispute with regarding MS vs Apple (and as a proxy, laptop/desktop vs tablet) just sent me this link...

As much as I like a lot of aspects of the ipad and iphone for that matter, I can't get away from this impression that people that think tablets are 'the future' don't actually do that much 'real work'.

The iWhatevers are perfectly wonderful media centers, websurfing machines (sans typing), etc... but I have a hard time seeing how tablets replace a laptop for most enterprise purposes or even personal computing.

They're still in toy phase... and I think as much as MS probably had no choice, Windows 8 looks like an utter debacle. An OS designed to work across hardware sounds great in theory, but it practice, it offers the worst of every world for everything... you get the instability on the tablet, while largely hiding/eliminating a lot of the benefits of a true pc-based OS on a bigger machine.

   166. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 03, 2012 at 05:53 PM (#4315672)
Beginning of Season 3. Just before the absolute nadir of the Jack tattoo origin story referenced above.
Bai Ling was the featured guest in that tattoo story, and it was perhaps the worst hour in the history of television. I don't understand how she gets work. She's a terrible actress, and unattractive to boot.

The writer's strike did a real number on Lost, probably impacted it more than any other continuing television drama. Unlike other posters, I did enjoy the final season. After three seasons of constant flashbacks, it was appropriate to me that the last two seasons were a rush forward. Yes, storylines were dropped or left hanging, character development sometimes seem random, but I was a very happy regular viewer for the final two seasons. (I was also one of those determined to finish it, since I'd invested all that time trying to follow all the twists and turns from the beginning, so my bias shows.)
   167. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 03, 2012 at 05:54 PM (#4315675)
BTW you are aware that Israel was not the only "country" in the region gerrymandered by the Europeans in order to given a non-muslim group a majority- Lebanon's borders were drawn with the intent of creating a Christian majority country...


European hubris and imperialism ###### up Lebanon as well as Israel? Shocking. I have this crazy notion that the people of the region should be in charge of their own lives. The idea of Israel is as irrational as the idea of giving the New York and Pennsylvania back to the Iroquois.
   168. spike Posted: December 03, 2012 at 05:54 PM (#4315676)
I would happily have stayed on XP to this day.
   169. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 03, 2012 at 05:58 PM (#4315680)
No, no, no, no. Don't listen to the communist!
I had to laugh. In any case, if you haven't seen it, somewhere in youtube you'll find the ten minute deleted scene from s2 e1 where the group seeks out the vatos from season 1. It's beautifully done.

Frankly I'm not sure why or if the comic book was viewed as good and financially successful before the TV show started up.
Oh, hell, yes. It was a very big deal after several years, and also why AMC picked up six episodes (instead of just a pilot). You mentioned only 4,600 copies of #19 (which sounds low, for some reason), but that was five years before the tv series got underway.

Jericho is a perfectly watchable series, it just suffered from not-great acting, not-great scripts. Solid, in a word, but not special. Skeet Ulrich isn't a guy I'd build a series around, or Gerald McRaney. Safe, respectable choices, but unispired.

I just don't have it in me to stomp on Revolution... yet.
Oh, man, I'd like to like it, but they can't even do a basic fight sequence properly. It's like they sought out the worst editor in the business. Actively sought him out. Say what you like about TWD, but they did a sensational job with action sequences in the midseason finale.

Regarding quickly canceled shows I enjoyed both Daybreak and FlashForward, each only a season.
Didn't see FF, but Daybreak was fascinating. I got caught up in it in a way I never do with series and mapped it out while watching, and I can tell you someone put in reams of time and care getting all the details and sequences and consequences exactly right. Plus, the idea that you'd repeat a day, but there's be an emotional hangover in other characters based on how you treated them the previous day, was a marvelous conceit.

"A divided country gives Obama a second chance... [He succeeded in] eking out a second term with a fraction of his 7.3% margin of 2008...
Yes, 2/3 is definitely a fraction. Yes it is.

They were wrong, which is why Obama has leverage (and is actually acting like it, for once).
I'm glad he's doing this, if only because it would make me insane if he didn't. In my more optimistic moments, I imagine he finally becomes the Obama the right always blathered he was, and wasn't.

As for the Journal babbling inanely about Obama dividing the country, they're giving farce a bad name.

My preliminary thought is that Schweitzer's the current version of Jim Webb, who would've also been a decent VP but hardly likely to excite the base at the top of the ticket.
I don't really see much point in a Montanan in the second slot (in terms of electoral strategy). He won't swing his state, and you lot have convinced me that other than possibly swinging his state when it's otherwise a 2 point loss, VPs only matter when they're Tom Eagleton.
   170. spike Posted: December 03, 2012 at 05:58 PM (#4315681)
house members are elected to represent their constituents. these house members have been told and are being told to not compromise, to not vote for a tax increase and to do so would be the end of their career representing their district. this message is coming from individuals in their district, from groups, from lobbyists, you name it


About that "no-compromise" thingie....
   171. hokieneer Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:01 PM (#4315686)
I would happily have stayed on XP to this day.


I think 7 is marginally better, once you get past some of the UI changes, but I could have stayed on a 64bit XP just as well. No desire to move to 8.

They're still in toy phase...


They offer a little bit of productivity, but yeah tablets are really consumption devices. They have to mature a lot to replace desktops and laptops in productive capabilities. The tablet has just split the once all encompassing PC market in to two distinct markets.

EDIT: I also think in the next 10 years we are going to see the split of the home console video game market as well. The current browser/mobile game market will sort of merge with the casual console game market and be played with a tablet that has great peripheral support for video devices and controllers (sort of what Nintendo is doing). All other games will be on a gaming "PC" of some kind.
   172. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:08 PM (#4315692)
I have this crazy notion that the people of the region should be in charge of their own lives.


Except for those who happen to be Jewish it seems, or any non-Muslim living in a Muslim country.

Edit, maybe that's unfair, how about this- you seem to be roughly as knowledgeable regarding Israel's formation and the middle east circa 1940s as DMN seems to be about the Civil Rights movement and Southern Culture in the 50s-60s
   173. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:09 PM (#4315694)
spike

they are not voting for a tax increase nor are they compromising with democrats in terms of spending reductions. tax cuts are being extended.

i have cautioned folks here to keep from getting too confident.

as the days pass the president may have some house members of his own getting wobbly and willing to 'take what they can get'
   174. Steve Treder Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:13 PM (#4315700)

What about it is anything different than rolling up in a ball on the floor, tightly shutting one's eyes, and letting the ship sail freely into Fiscal Cliff Land?

Republicans are seriously considering a Doomsday Plan if fiscal cliff talks collapse entirely. It’s quite simple: House Republicans would allow a vote on extending the Bush middle class tax cuts (the bill passed in August by the Senate) and offer the President nothing more: no extension of the debt ceiling, nothing on unemployment, nothing on closing loopholes. Congress would recess for the holidays and the president would face a big battle early in the year over the debt ceiling.

Two senior Republican elected officials tell me this doomsday plan is becoming the most likely scenario. A top GOP House leadership aide confirms the plan is under consideration, but says Speaker Boehner has made no decision on whether to pursue it.

Under one variation of this Doomsday Plan, House Republicans would allow a vote on extending only the middle class tax cuts and Republicans, to express disapproval at the failure to extend all tax cuts, would vote “present” on the bill, allowing it to pass entirely on Democratic votes.
   175. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:15 PM (#4315704)
26. zonk Posted: December 03, 2012 at 10:56 AM (#4315093)

The GOP picked up 4 Senate seats in 2004 (going from 51-49 to 55-45) and 2 House seats (going from 229-205 to 232-203).... Total House votes were about +3 million for the GOP, but that was actually a drop from the 2002 midterm splits (GOP -0.4% from 2002, Dems +1.6%). The Dems actually outpaced the GOP so far as total Senate votes by a pretty good clip - but then, given the nature of Senate elections - not much to divine by that since it largely largely depends on which seats are up.

In 2012, the Dems picked up 8 House seats (going from 193-242 to 201-234) and 2 Senate seats (going from 53-47 to 55-45). Final House tallies not in yet, but it looks like total Dem House share will be just under +1 million.

All things considered, I'd say that aspect is a wash at best...

A wash?

- In 2004, Bush won reelection with a bigger percentage than he won in 2000; in 2012, Obama was the first president in history to be reelected with a smaller total.
- In 2004, the GOP not only retained its House majority, but added to it; in 2012, the Dems remained in the minority.
- In 2004, the GOP retained its Senate majority and added to it; in 2012, the Dems did the same.

At best, Obama and the Dems went 2-for-3 in 2012, and it's more like 1-for-3. But you and Gonfalon Bubble claim it's a wash, or that Bush didn't have a mandate, either. Really amazing.

31. zonk Posted: December 03, 2012 at 11:13 AM (#4315110)
BTW -

Just wanted to start the Brian Schweitzer '16 watch:

[...]

On one hand, he absolutely and wholly defangs any NRA/gun control arguments - I'd say there's at least an even-money chance that he actually gets an NRA endorsement.

???

You think there's an "even-money chance" that the NRA endorses Schweitzer, knowing full well that his judicial nominees are likely to be overwhelmingly anti-gun? Or are you claiming that Schweitzer will buck his Dem supporters and nominate Alito/Scalia-type judges rather than liberal judges?

After all the talk here about the honesty and open-mindedness of the BBTF liberals and the dishonesty and closed-mindedness of the non-liberals, I'm glad all of the lefties here called you on the above nonsense. (Oh, wait, they didn't? I'm shocked.)
   176. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:17 PM (#4315706)
spike

they are not voting for a tax increase nor are they compromising with democrats in terms of spending reductions. tax cuts are being extended.


what I head is that they are going to "allow" a vote on extending the "middle class" tax cuts- then vote "present"- letting the Dems pass the extension- then

blame the Dems for increasing taxes (on the non-middle class)

I'm not sure what that really gets the GOP (caving while saving face?)

personally I think Boehner should let both the GOP's and the Dem's tax extension plans up for a vote- then state that he'll tell the majority whip to stand down if the Dem's do likewise (there is term for this in Parliamentary systems- letting legislators who normally vote as the party tells them to vote to vote "their conscience" instead)
   177. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:17 PM (#4315707)
steve

because you have taken 98 percent of the population out of having an immediate vested interest in the discussion. the feds have been talking about spending cuts forever. and the impact of the spending cuts scheduled will take a while for anyone notice

but a payroll tax hike would be immediate. take away that impact and gop is on firmer ground
   178. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:19 PM (#4315709)
johnny

it gets a house member the opportunity to avoid voting for anything that contains a tax increase

that means a 'lot'

this isn't complex. i am struggling to understand why folks here are looking for some deeper meaning
   179. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:21 PM (#4315710)
- In 2004, Bush won reelection with a bigger percentage than he won in 2000;


It would have been impossible for him to win with a smaller margin.
   180. Steve Treder Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:23 PM (#4315714)
but a payroll tax hike would be immediate. take away that impact and gop is on firmer ground

Well, yes, by giving up one's entirely previously held ground and walking over and standing next to the Democrats, the GOP would be on firmer ground. There is that.

that means a 'lot'

To whom, in the real world?
   181. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:28 PM (#4315725)
in 2012, Obama was the first president in history to be reelected with a smaller total.


Wilson.
   182. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:28 PM (#4315726)
steve

ok, we are speaking past one another.

there is no way that a gop house member is voting for a package that includes a tax increase on any taxpayer large or small.

if that is understood then the house can only examine options that make any tax increase happen without their vote being registered.

they could let the whole current package take place but then everyone has a tax hike and the gop likely takes a hit

if the tax cuts are extended for the vast majority of taxpayers suddenly the conversation shifts because 90 odd percent of taxpayers got what they wanted.

so again, if you understand that no gop house member is going to register an actual vote for any type of tax increase on any taxpayer this makes sense

in that context
   183. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:30 PM (#4315730)
by the way, i know you wiseguys can wordsmith my above post about what does and does not make a tax increase but let's not be cute

you know what i mean
   184. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:31 PM (#4315732)
Wilson.

What are you talking about? Wilson got 41.8 percent in 1912 and 49.2 percent in 1916.
   185. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:34 PM (#4315734)
Not a tablet, but I've been using a 5" Samsung Galaxy Player as a light productivity machine. Paired with a portable keyboard it's good for note-taking and quick rough drafts of things. Of course, it's not much better at this sort of work than a Palm III was.

I would happily have stayed on XP to this day.


Windows 7 is a nice improvement on XP. It's prettier, more stable, and more secure. It uses somewhat more resources than XP, but 7 was far better on an average machine of 2009 than XP was on an average machine of 2001.

   186. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:35 PM (#4315737)
I can't get used to typing on a virtual keyboard on a screen.
   187. McCoy Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:35 PM (#4315738)
Darn, Joe discovered the new thread. Let the stupidity and focus on every batshvt thing he says commence.
   188. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:35 PM (#4315739)
He got way fewer electoral votes. You know, the ones that matter.
   189. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:36 PM (#4315741)
You know, the ones that matter.


buuuuuut not the ones Joe was talking about.
   190. DA Baracus Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:37 PM (#4315743)
Obama was the first president in history to be reelected with a smaller total.


Only if you don't count James Madison and Andrew Jackson.

EDIT: And FDR in 1940 and 1944.

Does Grover Cleveland's 2nd term count?
   191. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:38 PM (#4315747)
Edit, maybe that's unfair, how about this- you seem to be roughly as knowledgeable regarding Israel's formation and the middle east circa 1940s as DMN seems to be about the Civil Rights movement and Southern Culture in the 50s-60s


You're right. Your first statement was unfair.
   192. McCoy Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:38 PM (#4315748)
I can't get used to typing on a virtual keyboard on a screen.

Apple not having swype should be a deal breaker for a lot of people but apparently it isn't. If the keyboard is going to be on the screen you need swype but I think long term the answer is not the keyboard on the screen. At some point virtual keyboards are projected onto a surface will become the standard for these kind of devices. Unless of course as someone else mentioned the tablet becomes an entertainment and media device exclusively.
   193. DL from MN Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:39 PM (#4315749)
So the Democrats get increased taxes on the wealthy AND huge defense spending cuts? Sounds like a clear win for their side. Sounds like it's just negotiating limits on deductions to pay for entitlements after that.
   194. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:42 PM (#4315750)
Only if you don't count James Madison and Andrew Jackson.


It's very important to Joe that you all recognize that Barack Obama 2012-16 is even more illegitimate than his first term. Duh.
   195. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:43 PM (#4315751)
As a (relatively) young voter, I am completely willing to opt out of Social Security if I don't have to pay for it either.
   196. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:45 PM (#4315754)
It's very important to Joe that you all recognize that Barack Obama 2012-16 is even more illegitimate than his first term. Duh.


for me, the most illegitimate thing about this election was the GOP's forecasting ability. many GOP losers seemed legitimately stunned even after losing by double-digit margins. it seems like their polling and analysis should have made them see this coming.

i say this as a GOP voter.
   197. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:46 PM (#4315755)
It's very important to Joe that you all recognize that Barack Obama 2012-16 is even more illegitimate than his first term.
Obama: STILL not born in the USA!
   198. McCoy Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:47 PM (#4315757)
At this point I have no idea if I would opt out of social security or not if given the choice. I've been paying into it for almost 20 years now and I'd be kind of ticked if I didn't get anything back for all that money I spent. Plus at this point the end looks a lot closer than it did when I was 21 and retirement planning occupies more and more of financial decisions than it did at 21.
   199. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:48 PM (#4315758)
He got way fewer electoral votes. You know, the ones that matter.

Oh, so when we analyze the House election, we count the raw votes and not the number of seats won — because that helps Dems — but when we analyze the presidential election, we count electoral votes and not the raw votes or percentages — because that helps Dems. Now I get it.
   200. Tilden Katz Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:48 PM (#4315759)
- In 2004, Bush won reelection with a bigger percentage than he won in 2000; in 2012, Obama was the first president in history to be reelected with a smaller total.


Obama's win in the popular vote was bigger than Bush's in 2004, and his win in electoral college was MUCH bigger. By your standard FDR's win was in 1940 was less impressive than Bush's in 2004.
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