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Sunday, December 02, 2012

OTP December 2012 - Pushing G.O.P. to Negotiate, Obama Ends Giving In

Mr. Obama, scarred by failed negotiations in his first term and emboldened by a clear if close election to a second, has emerged as a different kind of negotiator in the past week or two, sticking to the liberal line and frustrating Republicans on the other side of the bargaining table.

Bitter Mouse Posted: December 02, 2012 at 11:15 PM | 6172 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   1101. Graham & the 15-win "ARod Vortex of suck" Posted: December 05, 2012 at 09:53 PM (#4318275)
As a Kentucky fan, I find #1009 to be outstanding.
   1102. RollingWave Posted: December 05, 2012 at 10:28 PM (#4318284)
#1100: gold is to some extend hedging bets in case the dollar / Euro blows up, in which case the RMB would be in a pretty strong position to establish itself as a new major currency player in the aftermath... assuming they survive the whole catastrophy first.

   1103. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 05, 2012 at 10:31 PM (#4318287)
Joe (you must be Kehoskie's sock puppet--they're can't be two of you), did this other poster make you cry and take your lunch money? Couldn't have been hard to do.

What the hell are you talking about?

"My name's Joe Ray, and in order to be a contentious assh*le and because I have no ideas to propose, I'm going to pretend that in a fight there's no difference between having a gun, and having a knife."

???

Is the lunatic formerly known as "something other," who's now posting as "Jack Carter," seriously pretending he doesn't know who Ray is, or claiming that Ray is someone's "sock puppet"?
   1104. OCF Posted: December 05, 2012 at 10:56 PM (#4318296)
Not that I can afford anything but driving my 1999 Civic till I die. That car will long outlive me.

The car I grew tired of and shed earlier this year was a 1996 Civic. Good car, but eventually little things going wrong eventually build up. And I could afford to replace it.
   1105. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 05, 2012 at 11:31 PM (#4318313)
With luck the gun vs. knives - you decide! argument is over now that I am back and up to speed. Kids, in life, timing is everything.

Anyway I have no idea why on earth China is hoarding gold. It could be as simple as some random dude in charge of Chinese currency policy is a gold bug. But "new to capitalism" is a pretty good guess I think.
   1106. McCoy Posted: December 05, 2012 at 11:47 PM (#4318319)
Like anything else with the Chinese economy they have money and they need to spend it or else they get inflation and upheaval. That's why China is going through their massive building phase, building up their navy, buying gold, and buying our debt. The buy gold because they view it as a decent investment. They keep their own gold because if they sold it to foreign markets they'd have more money they'd need to spend.

The Chinese may be "new to capitalism" but that doesn't mean they don't understand it and are acting stupidly against their interests.
   1107. Morty Causa Posted: December 05, 2012 at 11:50 PM (#4318322)
That TCM lineup of Stanwyck films short-shrifts her tremendous range and versatility. The Pre-Code Baby Face and The Miracle Woman are definitely to watch. Meet John Doe is almost as good as It's A Wonderful Life and Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. No Double Indemnity, though. I would have liked her in her comedic mode to be showcased more. The Mad Miss Manton is a nice minor-league gem warmup for The Lady Eve and shows the chemistry between her and Fonda. Breakfast For Two, with the forgotten Herbert Marshall, would have been another good comedy And Ball of Fire is a Hawks comedy that's just below Bringing Up Baby and His Girl Friday (which are the very best screwball comedies). Remember the Night is the last movie Preston Sturges only scripted--shows her chemistry with Fred MacMurray pre-Double Indemnity. She (well, they both do) shows particular sensitivity in a combination drama and romantic comedy. Too bad, too, a late western couldn't have been included--like The Furies. She's much better at the woman with a pair of 'em than Joan Crawford in Johnny Guitar. That is all. Carry on.
   1108. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:03 AM (#4318331)
Belcher himself probably would be alive today. I doubt he would have successfully knifed himself to death with all those men around to stop and/or treat him.


I've heard that suicidal people - those who are serious, anyway, and not just looking for sympathy or attention or to hurt others - jump off bridges or in front of trains or out windows. Quite easy, actually.

And knifing oneself to death is quite easy.
   1109. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:05 AM (#4318333)
I've heard that suicidal people jump off bridges or in front of trains or out windows. Quite easy, actually.


I'm pretty sure the Chiefs' practice facility isn't located on a bridge or in a trainyard or at the top of a high-rise building.
   1110. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:08 AM (#4318334)
   1111. Steve Treder Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:10 AM (#4318335)
And knifing oneself to death is quite easy.

(a) Queen Elizabeth

(b) Joe Pesci

(c) Apu

YOU decide!
   1112. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:16 AM (#4318338)
MORTY!!!

TCM DECEMBER SCHEDULE

The Miracle Woman plays at 5:00 this morning.

Double Indemnity and Sorry, Wrong Number both are scheduled for the 19th. First screening in many years for those two.

Breakfast For Two and The Mad Miss Manton play back-to-back in the late morning of the 13th.

Remember The Night is in prime time on the 12th, with Ball of Fire showing later that night.

And while The Furies isn't scheduled, there are six of her Westerns playing back-to-back on the 26th beginning at 8:00 PM, including Forty Guns, The Maverick Queen, The Violent Men, Trooper Hook, The Moonlighter, and Annie Oakley. There are 55 feature films in all, running for 24 hours straight from 8:00 PM to 8:00 PM every Wednesday / Thursday of the month. And next month the SOTM is Loretta Young, featuring mostly her pre-codes.
   1113. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:19 AM (#4318342)
I've heard that suicidal people - those who are serious, anyway, and not just looking for sympathy or attention or to hurt others - jump off bridges or in front of trains or out windows. Quite easy, actually.

And knifing oneself to death is quite easy.


"Serious" suicidal people might knife themselves to death. It's a very hard thing to do. You probably expect to die slowly. With a gun you can easily kill yourself in an impulsive moment.

Just like killing other people.
   1114. Morty Causa Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:20 AM (#4318343)
Excellent!
   1115. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:22 AM (#4318345)
And knifing oneself to death is quite easy.


I'll take "Subjects Ray Has Decided To Comment On While Having Given The Details No Thought At All" for $300, Alex.
   1116. Lassus Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:28 AM (#4318348)
And knifing oneself to death is quite easy.

One more bit of hilarity.


I've heard that suicidal people - those who are serious, anyway, and not just looking for sympathy or attention or to hurt others - jump off bridges or in front of trains or out windows. Quite easy, actually.

Understanding suicide requires a grasp of humanity.
   1117. Lassus Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:29 AM (#4318349)
Re: Barbara Stanwyck, TCM, and classic films threads:

Nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.
   1118. Graham & the 15-win "ARod Vortex of suck" Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:29 AM (#4318350)
Am I the only person that assumed that Ray meant "slitting one's wrists" when he said "knifing oneself"?
   1119. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:32 AM (#4318353)
Am I the only person that assumed that Ray meant "slitting one's wrists" when he said "knifing oneself"?


Yes; it's a common method, so I don't know what the peanut gallery is so confused about.

There are other methods with a knife as well.
   1120. Steve Treder Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:34 AM (#4318355)
Am I the only person that assumed that Ray meant "slitting one's wrists" when he said "knifing oneself"?

He SAID WHAT HE MEANT. And MEANT WHAT HE SAID. I think.
   1121. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:38 AM (#4318358)
Yes; it's a common method, so I don't know what the peanut gallery is so confused about.


It's a common method *that most people #### up.*

Let me repeat that for you Ray.

Most suicide attempts who slit their wrists *do it wrong and survive.*
   1122. Steve Treder Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:41 AM (#4318359)
Let me repeat that for you Ray.

Forget it, he's on a roll.
   1123. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:43 AM (#4318360)
Elliot Smith killed himself with a knife. Or was murdered. We can't be sure.
   1124. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:45 AM (#4318361)
Looking into the Elliot Smith thing, I am sad to find the "spring loaded refrigerator door" story to be apocryphal. That makes me so sad.

Then again, most Elliot Smith songs make me sad.
   1125. Shredder Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:58 AM (#4318362)
I'll take "Subjects Ray Has Decided To Comment On While Having Given The Details No Thought At All" for $300, Alex.
Never saw him knife himself.
   1126. Howie Menckel Posted: December 06, 2012 at 01:07 AM (#4318365)

"Not that I can afford anything but driving my 1999 Civic till I die."

Huh, just nuked my 1999 Civic this summer after 230K miles. Good times.

   1127. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 06, 2012 at 01:11 AM (#4318367)
Most suicide attempts who slit their wrists *do it wrong and survive.*
That's partly because wrist-slitting isn't instant death. First, you've got to slit both wrists. That hurts, especially since you've got to slit that second wrist using an arm with a slit wrist. Then, you've got at least three minutes of consciousness, plenty of time for you to watch the life slowly drain out of you, feel yourself get weaker. There's a lot of time between that first cut and unconsciousness to think about what's happening, reach some realization, and then change one's mind. Suicide via knife takes a level of commitment that's completely absent with a gun.

Murder via knife also takes a level of commitment that's absent with a gun. The worst part of a gun is that it takes so little commitment to end someone's life. You can give yourself physical distance, and thus emotional distance as well. Physically, it's extremely easy to squeeze a trigger. You don't have to stab or punch or kick or squeeze -- the gun does all the killing for you -- and nothing is being asked of you other than being just angry enough for a fraction of a second.

One particular terrible incident doesn't make a compelling argument either way for gun control. However, there's a reason why when people are stabbed to death nobody argues for knife control. Guns are special.
   1128. rr Posted: December 06, 2012 at 01:45 AM (#4318372)
1113--
"Serious" suicidal people might knife themselves to death. It's a very hard thing to do. You probably expect to die slowly. With a gun you can easily kill yourself in an impulsive moment.

Just like killing other people.


1114-Excellent!

Imagine 1114 in the voice of Montgomery Burns.

   1129. RollingWave Posted: December 06, 2012 at 03:30 AM (#4318387)
why stop at guns? (just like why the GOP should stop sanctity of marriage at homosexuals and not you know.. divorces which almost certainly hurt the old sanctity of marriage a lot more in terms of numbers) I mean if you have a gun they might have one too! you should be able to bury land mines in your yard if you feel like it and bring along a RPG just in case some baddy's chasing you in a car and grenades in case your seriously out numbered right?

   1130. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 06, 2012 at 04:07 AM (#4318390)
Let me repeat that for you Ray.

Forget it, he's on a roll

You left out a letter.
   1131. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 06, 2012 at 08:16 AM (#4318406)
And knifing oneself to death is quite easy.
Prove it.

Am I the only person that assumed that Ray meant "slitting one's wrists" when he said "knifing oneself"?
Of course you were. No one else imagines slitting one's wrists with an actual knife. Don't encourage him.
   1132. BDC Posted: December 06, 2012 at 08:41 AM (#4318410)
next month the SOTM is Loretta Young

For whatever reason, not that long ago I stumbled into watching The Doctor Takes a Wife, with Young and Ray Milland. One of these Christmas-in-Connecticut premises (pretend to be domestically inclined to get ahead in career) and it promised to be awful, but both stars were really strong and the picture surprisingly funny, warm, and smart. Not that I'm fixing to get cable just to watch a month of Loretta Young movies, but one could do a lot worse.
   1133. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 06, 2012 at 08:51 AM (#4318412)
I just watched Chasing Madoff last night, which of course enraged me, but the reason I'm bringing it up was because it detailed the suicide of Thierry de la Villehuchet. After losing his entire fortune and $1.4 billion of his clients, family and friends money to Madoff's fraud, he took a bunch of sleeping pills and slit his wrists (both, according to the film) and bled out into a trash can.

If anyone wants some insight as to why I hate bankers and politicians so intensely, watch Chasing Madoff.
   1134. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 06, 2012 at 09:03 AM (#4318415)
So serious question - will Boehner be speaker in two monthes? In other words will he survive the new congress and fiscal cliff?

Much of his party does not seem to like him, but he seems to fill a useful role. When do the TP take over the house?

I suspect he survives, but it is uninformed speculation and nothing more.
   1135. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 06, 2012 at 09:13 AM (#4318421)
@1134--I'm hearing vague rumors that the saner wing of the party is seeing the issue of who's the speaker as a watershed issue, and a way to keep the worst of the fringe at bay. Obviously that works in Boehner's favor.
   1136. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 06, 2012 at 09:54 AM (#4318444)
Most suicide attempts who slit their wrists *do it wrong and survive.*


Particularly when there are a bunch of people around, including trained cops, to ... you know ... run over there and stanch the wounds.
   1137. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 06, 2012 at 10:01 AM (#4318448)
US gun policy is such an absurd outlier among civilized nations (*) that the only way it can be defended is "Nah, nah, nah, I don't hear you," or teh stupid. Both have been on spectacular display in this discussion. The one where the primary concern of the guy who dressed up like the Joker and shot up a movie theatre on Batman's opening night was that a movie theatre would have fewer armed people is a veritable classic of the genre.

(*) And such an affront to civilization itself.
   1138. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 06, 2012 at 10:06 AM (#4318451)
Re: Barbara Stanwyck, TCM, and classic films threads:

Nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.


If we can send a few thousand drones into the constant blatherings about video games, it's a deal.
   1139. McCoy Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:04 AM (#4318509)
If anyone wants some insight as to why I hate bankers and politicians so intensely, watch Chasing Madoff.

So what's the alternative to bankers and politicians?
   1140. Chicago Joe Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:13 AM (#4318522)
So what's the alternative to bankers and politicians?

An affinity group of interested citizens, of course!
   1141. Lassus Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:13 AM (#4318524)
So what's the alternative to bankers and politicians?

Gold!
   1142. DA Baracus Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:15 AM (#4318526)
Last month I half joked that I am going to run for one of the many unopposed local government positions, such as County Commissioner. It appears I have been beaten to the punch:

County Commission Chairman John Eaves thought he had the four votes necessary to finally fix the lock problem — one of the last major hurdles the county must clear to get out from under a federal consent decree that has cost county taxpayers tens of millions of dollars. But his plan unraveled Wednesday when Northside Commissioner Tom Lowe arrived at the regularly scheduled meeting 3 1/2 hours after it began.

.....

Lowe, who is frequently late and leaves meetings early, said he was tied up with an important business matter Wednesday morning and declined to elaborate. Through much of the remaining meeting, he appeared to be napping.

Earlier this year, his late arrival at a meeting almost caused Atlanta to lose animal control services, as Lowe was the fourth vote to keep the service going amid a dispute with the city and county over whether to ban elephant bullhooks. Eaves took criticism for reconvening that meeting later in the day and holding a second vote.

Lowe, who said he would have voted for replacing the locks, acknowledged Wednesday evening that he has an obligation to be present for votes. “I understand that; it’s my job,” he said.

But he said he doesn’t like listening to some commissioners’ protracted grandstanding on many issues, and he makes no apologies for dozing off. Especially, he said, while Vice Chairwoman Emma Darnell is talking.

   1143. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:28 AM (#4318539)
Disability treaty downed by Republicans

So can someone explain to me why this treaty was a bad idea?
   1144. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:31 AM (#4318544)
If anyone wants some insight as to why I hate bankers and politicians so intensely, watch Chasing Madoff.


There's plenty of light between "hating bankers and politicians" and "being a gold bug."
   1145. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:33 AM (#4318546)
Particularly when there are a bunch of people around, including trained cops, to ... you know ... run over there and stanch the wounds.


The fact that the attemptee survived long enough for first responders to get there means *they did it wrong.*

(Also, double-secret-high-five to the point that no one ever cuts their wrists with a *knife.*)
   1146. zonk Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:39 AM (#4318554)
WOW!

Jim DeMint is resigning in January to join (or head, it appears) Heritage Foundation... That's pretty darn politico shattering...
   1147. DA Baracus Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:40 AM (#4318556)
So can someone explain to me why this treaty was a bad idea?


Because we would give up some of our sovereignty by ceding power to the UN, even though it does none of that. Agenda 21!
   1148. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:41 AM (#4318558)
But he said he doesn’t like listening to some commissioners’ protracted grandstanding on many issues, and he makes no apologies for dozing off. Especially, he said, while Vice Chairwoman Emma Darnell is talking


I'm pretty sure Emma Darnell has left messages on my home answering machine during election seasons past.

(Darnell) believes that the essential purpose of government is to serve people– and that if you serve people, “the songs will come by themselves and of themselves.”


If this is in fact the same woman who drones on relentlessly until the auto-timer of the machine cuts her off, I fully support John Eaves' in his attempts to avoid listening to this woman speak at length about anything.
   1149. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:43 AM (#4318560)
Take a knife, rest the blade on the side of the neck below your ear, and imagine making one violent thrust with the knife through and across your throat. It's not that hard.

There's also hara-kiri.
   1150. Ron J2 Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:48 AM (#4318566)
More past campaign stuff. Contrast the Obama camp's approach to polling with the Romney wishcasting:

( from Slate )

Obama's main pollster Joel Benenson would put together one round of data from the battleground states. The campaign also hired pollsters with expertise in specific battleground states to do a second poll. Then, each night, the campaign itself polled 9,000 people in battleground states. Simas also had his own little private poll of undecided voters he checked in with and rotated regularly during the campaign.

According to Simas, in order to test their polling methods, they then called in polling experts to deconstruct the three different sets of polls and recommend how they could do it better. Each time a new public poll came out, members of the Obama polling unit looked at its assumptions in order to determine if the public poll had a better understanding of the public than the campaign. That gave them confidence to stick with their numbers and ignore a lot of the public noise
   1151. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:49 AM (#4318568)
Take a knife, rest the blade on the side of the neck below your ear, and imagine making one violent thrust with the knife through and across your throat. It's not that hard.

That's what the nanny who murdered the two kids on the UWS did, more than once, and ... guess what ... she survived.
   1152. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:51 AM (#4318572)
So can someone explain to me why this treaty was a bad idea?


Why it's a bad idea or why Republicans oppose it? Two totally different potential answer sets there.
   1153. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:53 AM (#4318573)
There's also hara-kiri


You don't realize that seppuku was reserved for noble suicides by samurai specifically because it was so friggin' hard to accomplish, do you?
   1154. zonk Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:54 AM (#4318576)
Because we would give up some of our sovereignty by ceding power to the UN, even though it does none of that. Agenda 21!


The UN's problem - at least so far as getting black helicopter America to agree on anything - is that they haven't learned the Congressional fine art of treaty/resolution/etc naming....

I mean, titling anything "Agenda ##" or even using "Convention on..." is doomed to pique the ears of the Beckistanians...

They need to learn to title things like the "Clear Skies Act" -- even if it does nothing of the sort. Get with the program, UN - Call it "Treaty to promote FREEDOM and LIBERTY!" or the "International Fealty to the US Constitution" treaty... or the "Let's do something about all the damn gay puppies and kittens ruining family values" convention.
   1155. spike Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:56 AM (#4318583)
That they had the chutzpah to walk right past Bob Dole to do it ought tell everyone about the level of derpitude some folks are willing to publicly espouse in order to keep their jobs.
   1156. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:57 AM (#4318584)
So what's the alternative to bankers and politicians?


Not letting them continually #### you in the ass while pretending its not happening would be a start.
   1157. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:57 AM (#4318585)
So can someone explain to me why this treaty was a bad idea?


From a bit of reading it looks like the nutter homeschooling crowd decided it would hurt them somehow. Generally though conservatives really don't like treaties and are traditionally against them. Infringing on US expetionalism or something I guess, whereas Liberals like the idea of nations (governments) all working together and agreeing on stuff.

And yes the stereotypes above are just that and not 100% accurate, though I think they are preety much true.

EDIT: And on the merits of the treaty as far as I can tell the US is pretty much already in compliance and outside of symbolism is not really good or bad (I am not an expert though).
   1158. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:59 AM (#4318590)
Take a knife, rest the blade on the side of the neck below your ear, and imagine making one violent thrust with the knife through and across your throat. It's not that hard.

This might be the dumbest comment I've ever read on this site.
   1159. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:01 PM (#4318594)
South Carolina U.S. Senator Jim DeMint will replace Ed Feulner as president of the Heritage Foundation. Mr. DeMint will leave his post as South Carolina's junior senator in early January to take control of the Washington think tank, which has an annual budget of about $80 million.

Sen. DeMint's departure means that South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley, a Republican, will name a successor, who will have to run in a special election in 2014. In that year, both Mr. DeMint's replacement and Sen. Lindsey Graham will be running for reelection in South Carolina.

   1160. The Good Face Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:04 PM (#4318598)
There's also hara-kiri


You don't realize that seppuku was reserved for noble suicides by samurai specifically because it was so friggin' hard to accomplish, do you?


Seppuku typically involved a "second" whose job was to behead the person killing himself. I imagine it's a lot easier to cut your own belly open if you know you'll be granted a quick, merciful death immediately after the initial cut.
   1161. I am going to be Frank Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:07 PM (#4318602)
Could someone in South Carolina even pull a reverse Scott Brown?
   1162. spike Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:08 PM (#4318603)
“Our goal is a complete gridlock for the next two years. There is no place for bi-partisanship, compromise, only acceptable outcome is total victory and any politician that disagrees will be treated as a traitor. This is war.”
— Jim De Mint

I guess the war ended when the $1M Heritage payday came open.
   1163. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:10 PM (#4318605)
spike

very few people do not have a price

from a political standpoint demint is leaving when he knows the governor will install someone with similar views to demint's
   1164. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:10 PM (#4318606)
More past campaign stuff. Contrast the Obama camp's approach to polling with the Romney wishcasting:


I read that FOX News is putting a moratorium on Rove and Morris, in that those two are going to be put through at least a cooling period. A producer for now needs permission before booking one of them.

Morris, I believe, has claimed that he predicted a landslide for Romney in part to keep the Romney campaign's spirits up, or whatever, though he also said he believed his prediction at the time but it was wrong for various structural reasons.

The latter part of that isn't really anything "banworthy," except to the extent that Morris sucks at what his supposed expertise is. The former part of that really suggests that they shouldn't have him on, at least not if he's being presented as an objective analyst. They should identify him as "Dick Morris, shill for the Republican Party" or something, and then it's fine to present him. (How it was supposed to 'help' Romney that Morris fed them a fairy tale, I'm not clear on.)

As to Rove, I watched his "meltdown" live, and, while it was hilarious, I didn't see it as much of a crime. They brought him in to talk about the election results in real time, and that's what he did. He thought they called a state too soon, which is not really a big deal; it just represents either a lack of information or a lack of understanding or the result of him reacting in real time on air. I mean, he should know that the analysts in the back room probably know what they're doing and they have more information than he does, but it's not like networks haven't called a state too soon before. They put him in a difficult position in that he wanted to raise the issue to question it but he didn't really have the necessary information at his disposal to examine it, certainly not on air, which was a bit unfair to him.
   1165. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:11 PM (#4318609)
The UN's problem - at least so far as getting black helicopter America to agree on anything - is that they haven't learned the Congressional fine art of treaty/resolution/etc naming....


The UN could propose a Convention proclaiming the United States King of All Peoples and declaring that every other nation on earth had to pay levies and fealty to the US in a yearly ceremony of begging, grovelling and fellatio for all men over the age of 15 and the black helicopter crowd would oppose it.
   1166. tshipman Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:12 PM (#4318610)
Could someone in South Carolina even pull a reverse Scott Brown?


Almost certainly not. Although removing the largest obstructionist from the Senate is good in and of itself. Lindsey Graham is notably further left than Jim De Mint, who is basically the reincarnation of John Calhoun.
   1167. zonk Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:15 PM (#4318617)
Could someone in South Carolina even pull a reverse Scott Brown?


Doubtful...

The Dem bench in SC is awfully thin -- beyond their safely ensconced congressional seats that don't have a statewide prayer...

There was an interesting poll last week that actually has Obama's approval ahead of Nikki Haley's -- but part of that is because Haley has managed to piss off a lot of Republicans in the state by being... let's say, insulated and ornery.

The best Dem candidate possibility is probably the guy Haley beat for governor -- Vincent Sheheen -- who lost by just 3-4 points. He's young (41) and generally a decent Dem fit for SC, but most indications are that he's angling for a gubernatorial rematch rather than Senate.
   1168. ArrogantLizard Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:17 PM (#4318619)
'If Jovan Belcher didn’t possess a gun, he and Kasandra Perkins (the girlfriend he killed) would both be alive today.'


Wait, these were his exact words? They're incredibly naive.

Look, the surface problem is simple--people killing people in some way. But the solution is hard. Guns do make it easier to kill people; yet, in a domestic situation a la Belcher, one could easily use a knife or bare hands. The real trouble isn't the weapon used, but the psychological thinking surrounding weapons and killing (e.g. glamourization of guns and killing, lefties focusing on guns as *the* problem, psychological problems of the killer).

I say this as someone who generally leans left.
   1169. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:20 PM (#4318623)
Wait, these were his exact words? They're incredibly naive.


Here is the full transcript:

BOB COSTAS: Well, you knew it was coming. In the aftermath of the nearly unfathomable events in Kansas City, that most mindless of sports clichés was heard yet again: Something like this really puts it all in perspective. Well, if so, that sort of perspective has a very short shelf-life since we will inevitably hear about the perspective we have supposedly again regained the next time ugly reality intrudes upon our games. Please, those who need tragedies to continually recalibrate their sense of proportion about sports would seem to have little hope of ever truly achieving perspective. You want some actual perspective on this? Well, a bit of it comes from the Kansas City-based writer Jason Whitlock with whom I do not always agree, but who today said it so well that we may as well just quote or paraphrase from the end of his article.

"Our current gun culture," Whitlock wrote, "ensures that more and more domestic disputes will end in the ultimate tragedy and that more convenience-store confrontations over loud music coming from a car will leave more teenage boys bloodied and dead."

"Handguns do not enhance our safety. They exacerbate our flaws, tempt us to escalate arguments, and bait us into embracing confrontation rather than avoiding it. In the coming days, Jovan Belcher’s actions, and their possible connection to football will be analyzed. Who knows?"

"But here," wrote Jason Whitlock," is what I believe. If Jovan Belcher didn’t possess a gun, he and Kasandra Perkins would both be alive today."
   1170. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:23 PM (#4318625)
Every word Costas used and adopted rings completely true.
   1171. Manny Coon Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:24 PM (#4318628)
So the top 15 countries by gun ownership are the USA, Serbia, Yemen, Switzerland, Cyprus, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Finland, Uruguay, Sweden, Norway, France, Canada, Austria and Germany.

The bottom 15 are Tunisia, Timor-Leste, Solomon Islands, Ghana, Ethiopia, Singapore, Indonesia, Fiji, Eritrea, Bangladesh, Sierra Leone, Rwanda, North Korea, Japan and Haiti.

There are a few not so safe places among the gun owning countries and a few nice countires in the non-gun owning list, but generally speaking the gun owning countries are much safer places to live. People are able to own guns without constantly murdering people in Switzerland, Scandanavia, Canada or Cyprus, why can't we manage to do the same thing here? We need to try harder as a country trying to figure that out because the reality of the situation is that while guns obviously make killing easier, the 2nd amendment isn't going anywhere and there aren't going to be any laws passed anytime soon that would prevent someone like Belcher or the loon that shot up the Sikh temple from owning guns, they weren't purchased illegally, they passed background checks and they weren't using any kind of exotic weapons.
   1172. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:24 PM (#4318632)
The odds of Nikki Haley appointing someone moderate are slim. The odds of SC electing someone moderate in 2014 are even slimmer.
   1173. formerly dp Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:25 PM (#4318633)
There was an interesting poll last week that actually has Obama's approval ahead of Nikki Haley's -- but part of that is because Haley has managed to piss off a lot of Republicans in the state by being... let's say, insulated and ornery.

This has a lot of people on both ends of the spectrum a little pissed, and Haley's sort of the de facto face of it, even though it's not really her fault.
   1174. spike Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:29 PM (#4318638)
they weren't purchased illegally, they passed background checks and they weren't using any kind of exotic weapons.

I have been seriously told that there is no solution to this and that it is the price of freedom.
   1175. zonk Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:30 PM (#4318642)
There was an interesting poll last week that actually has Obama's approval ahead of Nikki Haley's -- but part of that is because Haley has managed to piss off a lot of Republicans in the state by being... let's say, insulated and ornery.


This has a lot of people on both ends of the spectrum a little pissed.


The Haley issues - from what I've read, and that's wholly what I know - are sort of a proxy of that... She's picked some high profile fights - including with the GOP state legislature leaders, and has also filled her staff with 20something political newcomers (read: activist types).

Now - on one hand, you can say "Good for her! She's breaking up the good old boys network" -- and I can absolutely appreciate that, but there's a line here, too, where you can't just step into high profile roles (I think her chief of staff is like 26), act all belligerent, and huffnpuff about new sheriffs in town.

It's all well and good to 'change the culture' - but there are lines between changing the culture and just needlessly picking fights.... and again, just from I've read - Haley and her team are more interested in just picking fights. You've still got to govern.
   1176. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:31 PM (#4318643)
Could someone in South Carolina even pull a reverse Scott Brown?

Only if the Republicans also ran a reverse Martha Coakley. Brown ran a great campaign in 2010, but that Massachusetts seat has always been one for the Democrats to lose. I can't see any plausible scenario like that repeating itself in South Carolina.
   1177. spike Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:32 PM (#4318644)
Did either principal ever fess up to the truth or fiction of Haley's alleged affair?
   1178. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:33 PM (#4318645)
DeMint's resignation, outside of the obvious rush for cash payment from Heritage, might indicate that the Senate is tired of the radicalism and intransigence and DeMint knows as much. The Tea Party, going forward, is probably going to be a rabble-rousing element of the House.
   1179. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:40 PM (#4318652)
For Joe's benefit....Spin away, Joe:

Latino Voice Alfonso Aguilar also conservative voice for immigration reform

“Que?! Que?!”

Alfonso Aguilar shouts into the mike, gesticulating wildly to no one in particular on a recent Saturday morning. He is taping his radio show, which is recorded in the District and beamed into nine cities, including Houston, Chicago and Miami.

News has broken that Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney blames his election loss in part on “gifts” President Obama gave Hispanics and other minorities.

Aguilar — “La Voz de Los Latinos” (the Latino Voice) — is incredulous.

“He thinks Latinos voted for entitlements,” he tells listeners in Spanish. “Mr. Romney, Latinos didn’t vote for President Obama because they liked Obamacare. No, they voted for Obama because of your stance on immigration. In the primary, you moved to the far right.”

Not the kind of talk you’d expect from a committed Republican, a guy who stumped for Romney and whose employer ponied up $400,000 in anti-Obama campaign ads that focused on the administration’s record deportation rates. It’s a set of curiosities not lost on a caller from Los Angeles.

“How could you have supported him at all?” Francisco wants to know.

“I’m a conservative,” Aguilar responds.

But not just any conservative. Aguilar is a 43-year-old Puerto Rican-born former official in the George W. Bush administration; an opponent of abortion and same-sex marriage; a supporter of free markets and limited government. But on immigration, he has differed sharply with his party’s orthodoxy, unapologetically embracing comprehensive reform, including a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants.

With Obama promising to push immigration reform early in his second term, Aguilar is poised to be a driving force in the debate, helping to shape how Republicans respond to an issue of paramount importance to about 12.5 million Latino voters — a growing segment of the electorate that has continued to skew Democratic. In many ways, Aguilar already is a pivotal presence....
   1180. Dan Szymborski Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:41 PM (#4318654)

“Our goal is a complete gridlock for the next two years. There is no place for bi-partisanship, compromise, only acceptable outcome is total victory and any politician that disagrees will be treated as a traitor. This is war.”
— Jim De Mint


Cite? I looked up the quote and every single reference to the quote is people in comment sections of political sites. Two of the early ones using this quote referenced a Bloomberg article where it appeared, the only references I can find in Google (check yourself if you don't believe me) that references any kind of source for this quote. But all that's in the Bloomberg article is:


DeMint doesn't care. "I've been told by businesses that if we would stop the tax increases the best thing that could happen for business after that is complete gridlock. At least gridlock is predictable," he tells Bloomberg Businessweek, taking a quick break between TV appearances. His goal, he says, is to stop programs that violate his anti-Big Government ideology. "What happens in the Senate is the Republicans sink to the lowest common denominator," he says. "People want an alternative to some kind of watered-down Republican philosophy."


He says complete gridlock and while one is perfectly free to disagree with this statement, it's a decidedly different one than the quote that's been passed around in liberal blogs. So I'm just curious what the source of the quote is - it's extremely bad form to quote someone without any source of the quote.
   1181. zonk Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:41 PM (#4318655)
One interesting possibility - given that Haley will pick the temp...

As noted above, her relationship with the SC GOP is not good right now... Hence, we could quite easily see her picking some sort of 'maverick' just to piss off the state party leaders. Does that lead to a destructive primary for the 2014 election? Does it lead to bad/unprepared/weakened incumbent in 2014?

We'll see... again - the Democrats really don't have much to run... Sheheen did run a strong campaign in 2010 -- obviously, it was a big GOP year, but he almost pulled it off in a bad year in a deep red state. He's no 'progressive' - if he somehow ran and won, he'd be hanging out with Joe Manchin, not Dick Durbin - but I'd give him a puncher's chance. Like I said, though -- most indications are that he wants a rematch for governor.

Still - I guarantee (or at least, certainly hope) Michael Bennett (new DSCC chair) has already been in touch with him, if he wasn't previously about possibly running for Graham's seat.
   1182. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:42 PM (#4318656)
Doesn't DeMint regularly wrap up early in the season the title 'most conservative' member of Congress? Isn't he the "Freedom Fries" loon?

Heritage likes to pretend it's doing serious work, in which case, why DeMint? In case anyone's forgotten, DeMint's the guy who introduced a bill making a woman's videoconferencing with her doc illegal if the subject was abortion. That gays and sexually active women shouldn't teach school. Who wrote the abysmal Saving Freedom: We Can Stop America's Slide into Socialism.

I can't find a way to copy from the excerpt at amazon.com, but it's a hoot. Saving Freedom appears in a blocky muscular font within strands of barbed wire. DeMint opens his book with a long version of the allegory of the Gingerbread Man, and describes us, coming off the orgasmic rush of the Revolution, as collectively "hot".

   1183. Ron J2 Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:43 PM (#4318658)
You don't realize that seppuku was reserved for noble suicides by samurai specifically because it was so friggin' hard to accomplish, do you?


They also generally had a second. Who basically made sure of a quick death.

EDIT: Coke to GF
   1184. ArrogantLizard Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:46 PM (#4318662)
Edits aren't working at the moment. Also, weirdly, my handle just changed from "Drew", etc., to "ArrogantLizard" (which I'd forgotten I'd used here once). Admins up to something?
   1185. spike Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:47 PM (#4318663)
Citation and explanation

apparently DeMint was "misquoted" by Bloomberg.
   1186. Dan Szymborski Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:47 PM (#4318664)
Found the quote. The quote is fabricated.

Someone took Steven Pearlstein's opinion of DeMint and added it to the DeMint quote.

(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/28/AR2010092806308.html)

Consider the case of Sen. Jim DeMint of South Carolina, the new Republican kingpin and enforcer on Capitol Hill. DeMint claims he was misquoted by Bloomberg Businessweek last week as saying that his goal for the next Senate is "complete gridlock." But you'd never know it from the way he's behaving during the Senate's do-nothing, pre-election legislative session. DeMint makes no apologies for saying that there's no place for bipartisan compromise or consensus or some "watered-down Republican philosophy," as he put it. For DeMint, this is war. The only acceptable outcome is total victory, and any Republican who dares to disagree will be treated as a traitor during the next election cycle.


   1187. Famous Original Joe C Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:47 PM (#4318667)
Test
   1188. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:48 PM (#4318668)
So the top 15 countries by gun ownership are the USA, Serbia, Yemen, Switzerland, Cyprus, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Finland, Uruguay, Sweden, Norway, France, Canada, Austria and Germany.

.....

There are a few not so safe places among the gun owning countries and a few nice countires in the non-gun owning list, but generally speaking the gun owning countries are much safer places to live.
Nice try, but while the US is close on the list to countries whose people don't shoot each other all that often, the drop off is substantial. Canada may be close to the US on the list, but has about one third of the guns we do. I don't know your motives so I won't presume to call it disingenuous, but it's on the order of looking at two expenditures 30 years apart and failing to adjust for inflation.
   1189. Lassus Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:49 PM (#4318669)
Wait, these were his exact words? They're incredibly naive.

I know, right? It's like Ray has never used a knife. Or were you talking about someone else?
   1190. ArrogantLizard Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:49 PM (#4318670)
"But here," wrote Jason Whitlock," is what I believe. If Jovan Belcher didn’t possess a gun, he and Kasandra Perkins would both be alive today."


Thanks Ray. Naive words from Whitlock, repeated by Costas. And yes, they are naive.
   1191. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:50 PM (#4318672)
Found the quote. The quote is fabricated.


Shocking.
   1192. Dan Szymborski Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:51 PM (#4318673)
apparently DeMint was "misquoted" by Bloomberg.

Half of your quote was clearly written by Pearlstein - as Bloomberg noted, the dispute was whether he said he wanted complete gridlock or if business wanted complete gridlock. While it's unsure which of that is true (Bloomberg felt the need to change the quote, for whatever it's worth), there's no question that the references to war or traitors and the like were simply Pearlstein's opinion, and never anything that DeMint outright said (in public).
   1193. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:52 PM (#4318676)
Doesn't DeMint regularly wrap up early in the season the title 'most conservative' member of Congress? Isn't he the "Freedom Fries" loon?

The Heritage Foundation likes to pretend it's doing serious work, in which case, why DeMint?


It's part of their ongoing 99-year sentence for having once favored health insurance mandates.
   1194. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 06, 2012 at 01:07 PM (#4318702)
@1193: heh. The righteous shall not stray from the path of righteousness. Or something.

As for misquoting DeMint, there's no need. The man's own lunacy is sufficient all by itself.
   1195. Srul Itza At Home Posted: December 06, 2012 at 01:09 PM (#4318708)
Take a knife, rest the blade on the side of the neck below your ear, and imagine making one violent thrust with the knife through and across your throat. It's not that hard.


In biology class in the early 70's, when we were discussing musculature, the teacher explained to us that, if you were planning to kill yourself this way, you should look down. Most people tend to look up, exposing a wide range of the neck, but also tensing the neck muscles in the process, which makes for a harder cut.

I wonder if you could get away with giving that kind of advice today. Probably not.
   1196. spike Posted: December 06, 2012 at 01:12 PM (#4318712)
As for misquoting DeMint, there's no need. The man's own lunacy is sufficient all by itself.

Fair enough - but the quote's real, it's the attribution that's wrong. Sort of like Whitlock and Costas.
   1197. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 06, 2012 at 01:14 PM (#4318713)
As for misquoting DeMint, there's no need.


Apparently, there is. Ask Spike and all the rest of the people who misquoted him.
   1198. Manny Coon Posted: December 06, 2012 at 01:16 PM (#4318714)
Nice try, but while the US is close on the list to countries whose people don't shoot each other all that often, the drop off is substantial. Canada may be close on the list, but has about one third of the guns as we do. I don't know your motives so I won't presume to call it disingenuous, but it's on the order of looking at two expenditures 30 years apart and failing to adjust for inflation.


My point was that gun ownership by country and violence doesn't correlate well at all. USA might have a more guns than Canada and Switzerland, but places Canada, France and Switzerland still have more guns than the vast majority of the world and manage to not constantly shoot each other.

If you look at this page http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list and sort by the Homicide Rate per Capita column there is no meaningful trend between it and the gun ownership rate column next to it. The United States is fairly extreme outlier given it's wealth compared to other countries, but the problem goes well beyond simply having the guns.

We might have 3 times as many guns as France, but we about 50 times the firearm homicides. Even Switzerland where the homicide rate is relatively high there are only about 1/4 as many firearm homicides (and most those are suicides not murders) despite the USA only having less than twice as many guns.
   1199. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 06, 2012 at 01:17 PM (#4318719)
Fair enough - but the quote's real, it's the attribution that's wrong. Sort of like Whitlock and Costas.


Not "sort of like" that at all. Costas specifically adopted Whitlock's commentary. Costas said Whitlock "said it so well that we may as well just quote or paraphrase from the end of his article."

Demint did not specifically adopt Pearlstein's commentary.

See the difference?

   1200. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 06, 2012 at 01:49 PM (#4318758)
My point was that gun ownership by country and violence doesn't correlate well at all....
Fair enough. Any theories?

Some of those numbers are astounding. Apparently in the Honduras if you get the wrong change you're allowed to shoot the clerk.

edit: Alex Wagner is my current dream woman. Oh, those cheek bones. She's doing a segment on Paul Ryan's rebirth as a champion of the poor. The problem, according to Ryan, is a bloated federal government that spends too much helping the poor. Marco Rubio, otoh, mentions the middle class 35 times in a single speech. It's no longer credible that he won't be running for President.
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