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Sunday, December 02, 2012

OTP December 2012 - Pushing G.O.P. to Negotiate, Obama Ends Giving In

Mr. Obama, scarred by failed negotiations in his first term and emboldened by a clear if close election to a second, has emerged as a different kind of negotiator in the past week or two, sticking to the liberal line and frustrating Republicans on the other side of the bargaining table.

Bitter Mouse Posted: December 02, 2012 at 11:15 PM | 6172 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   1401. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 07, 2012 at 02:27 PM (#4319528)
(I equate guns and fire extinguishers - both useful tools that most likely, and hopefully, will never be required).


Now imagine that the compounds in fire extinguishers were very volatile, and that spontaneous fire extinguisher explosions killed 12 thousand people annually. And imagine that some people felt that meant perhaps, as useful as they are, they should be kept out of public places like schools and libraries, and in the hands of trained professionals. And imagine that other people felt that fire extinguishers were a god-given right, and that if everyone had one, there would be no fires.
   1402. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: December 07, 2012 at 02:55 PM (#4319537)
Now imagine that the compounds in fire extinguishers were very volatile, and that spontaneous fire extinguisher explosions killed 12 thousand people annually. And imagine that some people felt that meant perhaps, as useful as they are, they should be kept out of public places like schools and libraries, and in the hands of trained professionals. And imagine that other people felt that fire extinguishers were a god-given right, and that if everyone had one, there would be no fires.

That's a ridiculous comparison. Who'd ever think of bringing a gun into a school or a library?
   1403. Steve Treder Posted: December 07, 2012 at 02:58 PM (#4319541)
Andrew Sullivan speculating on possible Obama administration approaches WRT the legality of pot:

... the main reason the president should instruct the Justice Department that this is not an area for discretionary prosecution is that choosing to focus on pot-prohibition in states that have legalized it defies reason. One of my core arguments for Obama has long been his adoption of what I consider pretty reasonable, if always debatable, policies. He is not an extremist, proposing laws and regulations that are designed to make a cultural point or wage a cultural war; he's a pragmatist, trying to fix existing problems.

Mr President, the electoral decisions of the citizens of two states are not an existing problem.

The personal legal use of marijuana in those states is not a problem.

The War on Drugs is the problem.

And the federal War on Marijuana is racist in its enforcement, ridiculous as a matter of science, outrageous in terms of personal liberty, and inimical to federalism. What we want - indeed demand - is the beginning of a review of whether the science justifies in any way the classification of cannabis as a Schedule One substance under federal law - making it as dangerous as heroin or cocaine. This didn't make any sense in 1970 when it took force; it makes even less sense today.

   1404. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: December 07, 2012 at 02:59 PM (#4319542)
I've been looking up Civil war info since we are going to be hitting the 150th anniversary of Gettysburg next year and found that on Dec 10th will be the 150th anniversary of the House passing a bill for the creation of West Virginia.
   1405. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: December 07, 2012 at 03:12 PM (#4319550)

BERNARD MCGUIRK: The war on Christmas is very, very real, and if you ask me, in addition to some grouchy misanthropic heathen atheists it has to do — at the root of it — it has to do with two things — abortion and the gay rights agenda, because Christianity is against those things. It’s subtle but that’s why it’s so pronounced in recent years, in my opinion.

BILL O’REILLY: Hundred percent agree. I absolutely agree 100 percent that it’s the diminishment of Christianity is the target and Christmas is the vehicle because the secularists know the opposition to their agenda – legalized drugs is in there as well – comes primarily from the Judeo-Christian traditionalist people.
   1406. Lassus Posted: December 07, 2012 at 03:17 PM (#4319556)
I thought it was the Irish who ruined Christmas; but it's the gays? Jesus Christmas, make up your mind.
   1407. Steve Treder Posted: December 07, 2012 at 03:19 PM (#4319558)
I thought it was the Irish who ruined Christmas; but it's the gays? Jesus Christmas, make up your mind.

Pothead gays. The worst kind.
   1408. BDC Posted: December 07, 2012 at 03:22 PM (#4319562)
Please let the next front in the War on Christmas be conducted against elevator versions of "The Little Drummer Boy."
   1409. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 07, 2012 at 03:23 PM (#4319565)
So atheists, pro-choice people, gay people, and legalized pot proponents are waging a war on Christmas?

Bart: So finally, we're all in agreement about what's going on with the adults. Milhouse?
Milhouse: [steps up to blackboard] Ahem. OK, here's what we've got: the Rand Corporation, in conjunction with the saucer people
Bart: Thank you.
Milhouse: -- under the supervision of the reverse vampires --
Lisa: [sighs]
Milhouse: -- are forcing our parents to go to bed early in a fiendish plot to eliminate the meal of dinner.
[sotto voce] We're through the looking glass, here, people...
   1410. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: December 07, 2012 at 03:27 PM (#4319567)
   1411. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 07, 2012 at 03:32 PM (#4319569)
What I truly don't understand is athiests having such a beef with Christmas, etc.. I can understand how one would be against the Lord's Prayer being recited in a school or something of that nature, but when did a-theism become synomous with anti-theism?
   1412. Lassus Posted: December 07, 2012 at 03:38 PM (#4319573)
...but when did a-theism become synonymous with anti-theism?

Well, I'd say simply that not all a-theists are anti-theists, but the previous, you never hear from.

I myself am rather anti-theism across the board. That being said, I really like Christmas, and haven't a shred of a problem celebrating the second-most Jesusy holiday. I'd say the same about whatever holiday from Odin would allow presents as well.

edit: #1414 said it better.
   1413. spike Posted: December 07, 2012 at 03:40 PM (#4319574)
What I truly don't understand is athiests having such a beef with Christmas, etc.

Oh, the noise!
Oh, the Noise! Noise! Noise! Noise!
That's one thing he hated!
The NOISE! NOISE! NOISE! NOISE!
   1414. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 07, 2012 at 03:41 PM (#4319576)
I am an atheist who likes Christmas, but that's because there are two Christmases -- a Christian Christmas with Nativity scenes, midnight Mass, Silent Night, and advent calendars. Then there is the secular Christmas with Christmas trees, Frosty the snowman, presents, and mistletoe. The latter is the Christmas I celebrate.

Given that Christians appropriated Saturnalia from the pagans to begin with, I don't think they have grounds to argue with secular appropriation of the holiday in return.
   1415. hokieneer Posted: December 07, 2012 at 03:46 PM (#4319579)
Well, I'd say simply that not all a-theists are anti-theists, but the previous, you never hear from.

I myself am rather anti-theism across the board. That being said, I really like Christmas, and haven't a shred of a problem celebrating the second-most Jesusy holiday. I'd say the same about whatever holiday from Odin would allow presents as well.


The anti-theists on FB are worse, or as least just as bad as the fundamental Christians. It's an amazing display of the lack of self awareness of human beings.

I suppose if I must pick a category, I'm an a-theist, but I really enjoy Christmas. I'm more than aware of the Christian and Pagan traditions the day was created for, but I could care less.
   1416. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 07, 2012 at 03:55 PM (#4319584)
So I realize we don't care about this anymore, but a surprising Jobs report:

Employment up by 146,000 in November, with downward revisions for September and October (Cue JK with conspiracy stuff). I say surprising because although it fits the overall trend, Sandy was expected to have a significant impact, with number anticipated in around 88-90K rather than 146. The headline rate fell to 7.7%, but it's basically the same as it was in October.

A weird report. It seems superficially strong to post such a good number with the Sandy tailwind, but the downward revisions for previous months make it seem less impressive.

Or they're just not that good at counting, as the non-stop revisions would suggest.
   1417. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 07, 2012 at 03:58 PM (#4319589)
Jews avoid the GOP in droves because for large numbers of them, liberalism is more of a religion than Judaism.
This is a few hundred posts old, but I'm going to do this now, once, because I think it needs to be said:

Go #### yourself, you antisemitic ####.

I don't presume to speak for the other Jews in the room.

Anyone have a tissue? "Infinite Yost (Voxter)" hurt my feelings.
   1418. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:08 PM (#4319598)
You're missing post-bellum Jim Crow. Jim Crow required constant low-level violence to keep black people in line, and black people in the South were themselves often armed to the teeth to defend themselves from this. This atmosphere of intercommunity violence can easily spill over into intracommunity violence, and there you go.

This seems a little too convenient, though. If black people were "armed to the teeth" during Jim Crow, but there was neither massive white/black gun violence nor widespread black-on-black gun violence, then what would cause the sudden "spill over" of black-on-black violence that erupted in the decades after Jim Crow?

Any explanation of gun violence that doesn't include the breakdown of the family and, secondarily, the drug trade is ignoring the two biggest elephants in the room.

***
Now imagine that the compounds in fire extinguishers were very volatile, and that spontaneous fire extinguisher explosions killed 12 thousand people annually. ...

Wow, guns just "spontaneously" go off and kill 12,000 people annually, rather than intentionally fired by criminals. Who knew?
   1419. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:13 PM (#4319604)
Hey, some of Joe's best friends look like Jews.
   1420. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:17 PM (#4319608)
What I truly don't understand is athiests having such a beef with Christmas, etc.. I can understand how one would be against the Lord's Prayer being recited in a school or something of that nature, but when did a-theism become synomous with anti-theism?


I am an atheist, and I too like the holiday. Tomorrow morning I and friends are taking the boys (and other kids) and dog out to hunt a x-mas tree, kill it, and bring it home where it will decorate our house after being appropriately dressed.

I love carols and so forth (Carol of the Bells!). It is not my favorite holiday (That would be Thanksgiving, which rules) but I like it plenty.

However, I am more than happy to say Happy Holidays or Season's Greetings to folks because some people would rather not have a semi-religious holiday rubbed in their face the whole time. And some folks get so worked up by the "War on Christmas!" that the ornery side of me makes it a point to never say Merry Christmas just because.

Atheism starts (and ends for me and others) with the simple lack of belief in a god or gods. At its base it has nothing to do with being against religion, though I admit plenty of folks are against religion.
   1421. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:18 PM (#4319609)
Wow, guns just "spontaneously" go off and kill 12,000 people annually, rather than intentionally fired by criminals. Who knew?


Joe K misunderstanding analogies since ... well forever I guess.
   1422. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:19 PM (#4319610)
I am agnostic. I like the holiday, its the people I can't stand.
   1423. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:20 PM (#4319611)
I thought it was the Irish who ruined Christmas; but it's the gays? Jesus Christmas, make up your mind.


You got it wrong. The Irish tried to ruin Easter, but we showed them what was what back in 664.

I helped decorate my workplace's Christmas tree at lunch. For the record, the tree was decorated by an atheist, a Jew, a Russian Orthodox, and a Hindu. I'm sure that means that the War on Christmas is over, but I'm not at all sure who won.
   1424. John Northey Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:25 PM (#4319615)
Wow, guns just "spontaneously" go off and kill 12,000 people annually


Well, given that a large percentage of gun deaths are via accidents, then yes they do go off 'spontaneously'. So, how do guns contribute to death?

via Wikipedia : 2007: 31,224 deaths by firearms - 17,352 were suicides, 12,632 were homicides. Doesn't list how many were accidental deaths, but it would be no more than 1240 or just over 3 a day. From 2000 to 2005 there was one child killed via a gun by accident every 3rd day. There are annotations for details on each stat.

Gotta say, the addiction to guns down there in the US is scary. Someone breaks into your home odds are they'll shoot you before you could wake up, grab your gun, focus your eyes on the person to know it isn't your kid or something and shoot. Having a gun at home does not make you one iota safer.
   1425. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:26 PM (#4319616)
I went through an athiest period, but now I'd say I fully believe in the spiritual realm (which is a physical realm that we don't have the technological ability nor concious understanding to measure or explore). I don't believe in a God that demands worship, or a creator in the Genesis sense, and other than "do unto others as you woudl have them do unto you" I don't believe in any religious rules.
   1426. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:32 PM (#4319621)
Reading, it's really interesting how strongly Joe's explanations rely on tribalism - Jews don't generally vote Democrat because the Democrats do something they want, but because they're Liberals. Ditto Hispanics, or whatever.

No, the Democrats *do* "do something they want" — they advance liberal causes that Jews (and blacks, and Latinos) support. That was the entire point.

I suppose I should know people are like this, but it's such a foreign idea to me, I can't see it unless I'm beaten about the face with it. I rarely have any idea how I'm going to vote until I see a debate, and typically haven't totally decided until I'm staring at a ballot. I'm sure Joe knows who he's going to vote for in 2044. It's just ... I don't get it.

Right, conservatives consistently vote for conservatives out of rote, closed-minded habit, while liberals consistently vote for liberals but only after a thorough, open-minded, dispassionate analysis of the candidates and issues. I've heard it a thousand times here.
   1427. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:34 PM (#4319623)
Joe K misunderstanding analogies since ... well forever I guess.

It appears you misunderstood #1401, not me.
   1428. Tilden Katz Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:35 PM (#4319624)
No, the Democrats *do* "do something they want" — they advance liberal causes that Jews (and blacks, and Latinos) support


Which liberal causes, specifically, do you think Democrats support that convince Jews to vote for them?
   1429. Gonfalon B. Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:35 PM (#4319625)
I thought it was the Irish who ruined Christmas; but it's the gays? Jesus Christmas, make up your mind.

I saw Daddy fisting Santa Claus.
   1430. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:38 PM (#4319627)
No, the Democrats *do* "do something they want" — they advance liberal causes that Jews (and blacks, and Latinos) support. That was the entire point.
You guys don't get it. Democrats are terrible because they do what ethnic and religious minorities want. Republicans are awesome because they just are.
   1431. bunyon Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:39 PM (#4319628)
I am more than happy to say Happy Holidays or Season's Greetings to folks because some people would rather not have a semi-religious holiday rubbed in their face the whole time.

I'm not particularly religious, wavering between atheist and agnostic, but I've never understood getting upset if someone wishes me good tidings from their particular cultural perspective. I had a Muslim grad student who used to wish me various happy eids. I have a Jewish in law who has included me in family traditions. If a Christian wishes me a Merry Christmas, then I'll thank them. If they pray for me, I'll thank them. Wishing someone well can only be done from one's own perspective.

Getting angry or offended for someone saying "Merry Christmas" to you makes absolutely no sense and makes the case the War on Christmas cranks are trying to make. Someone wished you well. Take pleasure in that, not anger.
   1432. BDC Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:40 PM (#4319629)
I went through an athiest period, but now I'd say I fully believe in the spiritual realm

I have a slightly different take: I strongly disbelieve in a metaphysical spiritual realm (let alone a personal God), but I think that humans have a profound spiritual dimension, something that has physical and material bases but that isn't easily satisfied by physical and material solutions.

And I dislike Christmas. I was raised Catholic, and for me Christmas was always a period of great stress and family tensions, from both sacred and secular sides. So I greatly preferred Thanksgiving (no church, no presents) and probably even more those holidays that weren't extended-family events but involved something unusual (4th of July, fireworks; Halloween, trick-or-treat).
   1433. Darkness and the howling fantods Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:41 PM (#4319630)
The Supreme Court has agreed to hear the appeals of the Ninth Cir.'s decision on Prop 8 and the 2nd Cir.'s decision striking down section 3 of DOMA, but it left itself possible procedural outs (standing) in both cases.

The theory was that if the Court took a DOMA case that was good news for gay marriage, but if it took Prop 8 that was bad news. No idea what this means. Maybe both sides think they can still convince Kennedy?
   1434. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:44 PM (#4319632)
Well, given that a large percentage of gun deaths are via accidents, then yes they do go off 'spontaneously'. So, how do guns contribute to death?

Citation for bolded part?

via Wikipedia : 2007: 31,224 deaths by firearms - 17,352 were suicides, 12,632 were homicides. Doesn't list how many were accidental deaths, but it would be no more than 1240 or just over 3 a day. From 2000 to 2005 there was one child killed via a gun by accident every 3rd day. There are annotations for details on each stat.

If a maximum of 1,240 were accidental, that's barely 3 percent of the total. We'd be better off banning cars and swimming pools.

Gotta say, the addiction to guns down there in the US is scary. Someone breaks into your home odds are they'll shoot you before you could wake up, grab your gun, focus your eyes on the person to know it isn't your kid or something and shoot. Having a gun at home does not make you one iota safer.

LOL. I guess this is the opinion-stated-as-fact part of the program.
   1435. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:46 PM (#4319634)
   1436. BDC Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:47 PM (#4319635)
Democrats are terrible because they do what ethnic and religious minorities want. Republicans are awesome because they just are

Short caricature history of the American conservative mind:

1) Begins as a Democrat; fights tooth and nail to preserve slavery
2) Slavery ends; is appalled that Republicans treat black people as a constituency in the same way Democrats treat Irish people; institutes Jim Crow and fights tooth and nail to preserve it
3) Loses fight to preserve Jim Crow; becomes Republican
4) Immediately announces that since racism no longer exists, blacks and other minorities must be poor and powerless because they are lazy
5) Is appalled that Democrats treat these lazy blacks and other minorities as a constituency in the same way Republicans treat energetic job-creating white capitalists; fights tooth and nail to cut taxes on the rich and benefits for the poor
6) Can't figure out why poor people and minorities vote for a moderately center-left black Democratic Presidential candidate
   1437. spike Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:47 PM (#4319636)
From this article -

“I don’t think justices get in this position very often because everybody knows what the judgement of history is going to be,” Lucas Powe, a Supreme Court historian at the University of Texas-Austin School of Law, told TPM in advance of the court’s announcement. “I don’t think think anybody doubts that gay marriage is coming — it’s only the issue of time. This is one of those times where no matter what you think you know you’re going to be wrong if you oppose it.”

The Supreme Court has not weighed in on gay marriage, leaving the outcome uncertain, but earlier rulings in favor of gay rights give hope to proponents of marriage equality. The four Democratic-appointed justices are widely expected to strike down DOMA. Justice Anthony Kennedy, a presumable swing vote, has written passionately against laws persecuting gays.

“I think Kennedy’s vote is very secure,” Powe said. “I think there are comfortably five votes to overturn DOMA. … Kennedy has a libertarian streak — he has written the key gay rights opinions and I think he will continue to do so.”
   1438. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:53 PM (#4319639)
Which liberal causes, specifically, do you think Democrats support that convince Jews to vote for them?

I already named two: Abortion and gun control. In poll after poll, huge majorities of Jewish people support both.

One would think Jewish people would be the last group on Earth to be OK with the government getting to decide who has guns and who doesn't have guns, but one apparently would be wrong.
   1439. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:55 PM (#4319644)
I'm either an atheist or agnostic who believes that the question generally isn't worth worrying to much over. It's the sort of thing that should be on the passive but still functional back burner, to be revisited occasionally when appropriate, but not to be obsessively needled. I also have a deep and abiding love for the history and traditions of Christianity, its art and literature and architecture, and much of its practice. I am a secular Jesus freak.

I like Christmas very for what it can be, and am a sucker for both its Christ-in-a-manger and fir-trees-and-winter aspects, as well as the love and good cheer towards all that frequently surfaces. I often dislike it in practice, for the usual reasons of its orgiastic commercialism, the stress it places on people, and the opportunities it presents for grotesque hypocrisy, personal and otherwise. This year, the whole Black Friday rigmarole and the idea of people working on Thanksgiving in the name of the Christmas Orgy has driven me firmly around the bend. At this point I think that we need to kill Christmas in order to save it.
   1440. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:58 PM (#4319649)
Short caricature history of the American conservative mind:

1) Begins as a Democrat; fights tooth and nail to preserve slavery
2) Slavery ends; is appalled that Republicans treat black people as a constituency in the same way Democrats treat Irish people; institutes Jim Crow and fights tooth and nail to preserve it
3) Loses fight to preserve Jim Crow; becomes Republican
4) Immediately announces that since racism no longer exists, blacks and other minorities must be poor and powerless because they are lazy
5) Is appalled that Democrats treat these lazy blacks and other minorities as a constituency in the same way Republicans treat energetic job-creating white capitalists; fights tooth and nail to cut taxes on the rich and benefits for the poor
6) Can't figure out why poor people and minorities vote for a moderately center-left black Democratic Presidential candidate

High five!
   1441. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:59 PM (#4319651)
Primey for Fernigal, as long as we can still listen to Handel and Buxtehude.
   1442. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 07, 2012 at 04:59 PM (#4319652)
Getting angry or offended for someone saying "Merry Christmas" to you makes absolutely no sense and makes the case the War on Christmas cranks are trying to make. Someone wished you well. Take pleasure in that, not anger.


Just to be clear I don't get angry, I just know some folks prefer not to be greeted that way. The last time I got annoyed at religion in my face was back in grade school vis-a-vis Bitter Mouse discovering some moron put "under God" into the Pledge for no damn reason at all. And yes I still refuse to say the darn thing - pledges are anti-American anyway.
   1443. Tilden Katz Posted: December 07, 2012 at 05:00 PM (#4319654)
Which of the gay marriage cases are people thinking Kagan will sit out?
   1444. zonk Posted: December 07, 2012 at 05:00 PM (#4319656)

I helped decorate my workplace's Christmas tree at lunch. For the record, the tree was decorated by an atheist, a Jew, a Russian Orthodox, and a Hindu. I'm sure that means that the War on Christmas is over, but I'm not at all sure who won.


Several years ago, anonymously, I complained about my company's rather ostentatious (and expensive looking) Christmas display -- and suggested that I would much prefer to celebrate the December holiday of my choice outside of work, and would be much more appreciative of the company instead handing out that money it cost to me -- even if that meant nothing more than a $5 starbucks card once it was spread out amongst everyone all of faiths or lack thereof.

The following year - the same display was back, but with the addition of a very large Menorah and multiple other displays of various religions were also added.

I have since stopped complaining about such displays.
   1445. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: December 07, 2012 at 05:00 PM (#4319657)
I have Eichmann up there on ignore, but is he really contending that it's somehow weird that we vote for the liberal party because most of us share liberal values?
   1446. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: December 07, 2012 at 05:01 PM (#4319658)
Short caricature history of the American conservative mind:

1) Begins as a Democrat; fights tooth and nail to preserve slavery
2) Slavery ends; is appalled that Republicans treat black people as a constituency in the same way Democrats treat Irish people; institutes Jim Crow and fights tooth and nail to preserve it
3) Loses fight to preserve Jim Crow; becomes Republican
4) Immediately announces that since racism no longer exists, blacks and other minorities must be poor and powerless because they are lazy
5) Is appalled that Democrats treat these lazy blacks and other minorities as a constituency in the same way Republicans treat energetic job-creating white capitalists; fights tooth and nail to cut taxes on the rich and benefits for the poor
6) Can't figure out why poor people and minorities vote for a moderately center-left black Democratic Presidential candidate


High five!

The truth hurts, doesn't it?
   1447. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: December 07, 2012 at 05:03 PM (#4319660)
Also, the biggest Xmas party in my group of friends is thrown by a gay Muslim. For the record. He loves the holiday more than anybody I've ever known.

I dislike Xmas music and the relentless commercialism, but I like going home and hanging out with my family and giving my nieces gifts and stuff. And the smell of Xmas trees is good.
   1448. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 07, 2012 at 05:04 PM (#4319661)
What this thread really needs is some sort of a Kehoskie Guide to why everyone votes the way they do, broken down by age, income, education level, skin color, "race", ethnicity, the demography of his precinct, gender, sexual preference, religion, gun ownership, and maybe even preferences for different types of sports.

Happy to oblige, especially in the holiday season:

The Kehoskie Guide to Voting Patterns

1. With rare exceptions, people vote their economic interests.
2. [this space intentionally left blank]

As an added bonus, I also present ...

The BBTF Liberals' Guide to Voting Patterns

1. If you're a horrible xenophobic racist, you vote for Republicans.
2. If you're not a horrible xenophobic racist, you vote for Democrats.
2a. If you vote for Democrats, you never vote out of self-interest; you only vote out of a selfless sense of community, generosity, and "social justice."
   1449. zonk Posted: December 07, 2012 at 05:04 PM (#4319662)
I have Eichmann up there on ignore, but is he really contending that it's somehow weird that we vote for the liberal party because most of us share liberal values?


Nahhh... that's too nuanced - he's saying you're idiots.
   1450. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: December 07, 2012 at 05:04 PM (#4319663)
Short caricature history of the American conservative mind:

1) Begins as a Democrat; fights tooth and nail to preserve slavery
2) Slavery ends; is appalled that Republicans treat black people as a constituency in the same way Democrats treat Irish people; institutes Jim Crow and fights tooth and nail to preserve it
3) Loses fight to preserve Jim Crow; becomes Republican
4) Immediately announces that since racism no longer exists, blacks and other minorities must be poor and powerless because they are lazy
5) Is appalled that Democrats treat these lazy blacks and other minorities as a constituency in the same way Republicans treat energetic job-creating white capitalists; fights tooth and nail to cut taxes on the rich and benefits for the poor
6) Can't figure out why poor people and minorities vote for a moderately center-left black Democratic Presidential candidate


I didn't know Reagan was a slave holder.
   1451. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 07, 2012 at 05:05 PM (#4319664)
Anyone have a tissue? "Infinite Yost (Voxter)" hurt my feelings.


Wait, you want us to just give you one? As a handout?

That's moocher talk!
   1452. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 07, 2012 at 05:07 PM (#4319665)
I didn't know Reagan was a slave holder.


It was his transitional phase between actor and politician.
   1453. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 07, 2012 at 05:07 PM (#4319666)
I have Eichmann up there on ignore, but is he really contending that it's somehow weird that we vote for the liberal party because most of us share liberal values?

No, I was contending that Jewish people tend to vote for the liberal party because most of them share liberal values. Words like "weird" not only didn't appear in the commentary, but was the polar opposite of the commentary.*


(* Now, I do believe Jewish support for gun control is weird, but that's a separate topic.)
   1454. Darkness and the howling fantods Posted: December 07, 2012 at 05:07 PM (#4319667)
Which of the gay marriage cases are people thinking Kagan will sit out?


I believe she would have had to recuse herself in Gill, one of the other DOMA cases. I think she's fine for both of these.
   1455. zonk Posted: December 07, 2012 at 05:09 PM (#4319668)
I didn't know Reagan was a slave holder.




It was his transitional phase between actor and politician.


In fairness, he was doing a lot of psychedelics with Bonzo the chimp during that phase.
   1456. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: December 07, 2012 at 05:18 PM (#4319672)
General order 11

Dec 11th also marks the 150 year anniversary of Ulysses Grant's General order 11 which ordered all the Jews expunged from his military district in parts of Tennessee, Mississippi and Kentucky. This was done to help combat the existing black market in Southern cotton. It was revoked a few weeks later by President Lincoln. Later on the order was brought up during the presidential race of 1868 but Grant ended up winning a large percentage of the Jewish vote regardless after repudiating the order saying he hadn't read it before he signed it after it was drafted by a subordinate.
   1457. Shredder Posted: December 07, 2012 at 05:20 PM (#4319674)
Which of the gay marriage cases are people thinking Kagan will sit out?
Neither.
   1458. The Good Face Posted: December 07, 2012 at 05:20 PM (#4319675)
Michael Smeriglio accidentally shoots off his penis and testicle; friend arrested on drug charge


Of course this happened in Florida.


Anybody dumb and/or careless enough to shoot off his own penis and testicles is somebody who has no business using them in the first place. The penis and testicles that is. Yet another example of guns making America safer and better.
   1459. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 07, 2012 at 05:27 PM (#4319682)
The Kehoskie Guide to Voting Patterns

1. With rare exceptions, people vote their economic interests.
2. [this space intentionally left blank]
I was curious to see how you'd explain why the poorest, most subsidy-needing counties in the United States went for Romney.
   1460. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: December 07, 2012 at 05:41 PM (#4319687)
The Kehoskie Guide to Voting Patterns

1. With rare exceptions, people vote their economic interests.
2. [this space intentionally left blank]


I was curious to see how you'd explain why the poorest, most subsidy-needing counties in the United States went for Romney.

And why the gilded city of San Francisco and the even more gilded Borough of Manhattan voted overwhelmingly for Obama.
   1461. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: December 07, 2012 at 05:48 PM (#4319693)
And why the gilded city of San Francisco and the even more gilded Borough of Manhattan voted overwhelmingly for Obama.


Haven't you heard? They're full of Jews. Which reminds me, I need to send an email to the White House and figure out where my kickback is -- they haven't paid for my vote yet.
   1462. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 07, 2012 at 05:53 PM (#4319695)
they haven't paid for my vote yet.

You mean votes, right? Don't tell me you only cast one...
   1463. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 07, 2012 at 05:54 PM (#4319697)
Later on the order was brought up during the presidential race of 1868 but Grant ended up winning a large percentage of the Jewish vote regardless after repudiating the order saying he hadn't read it before he signed it after it was drafted by a subordinate.


As a lawyer I actually do hear many many many people insist to high heaven that they didn't know/agree with what they signed, they hadn't read it, someone else just put it in front of them... Not just talking about poor saps who signed usurious installment sale contracts either, CEO types (actual CEOs..)

some % of them are even telling the truth.
   1464. Steve Treder Posted: December 07, 2012 at 05:56 PM (#4319699)
You mean votes, right? Don't tell me you only cast one...

No, the Chicago Boys told Obama: "We'll buy you the election, but we ain't gonna pay for a landslide."
   1465. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 07, 2012 at 05:56 PM (#4319700)
Anybody dumb and/or careless enough to shoot off his own penis and testicles is somebody who has no business using them in the first place. The penis and testicles that is. Yet another example of guns making America safer and better.


A Darwin Awards fan I presume?
   1466. Steve Treder Posted: December 07, 2012 at 06:01 PM (#4319701)
some % of them are even telling the truth.

Damn straight, probably not a small percentage. A large part of it is that people are lazy, but it's also just factually the case that just about any very responsible manager in any capacity is very, very damn busy, and simply does not have the time to read through, at least in any degree of careful detail, everything put in front of them. While obviously signing something and then saying, "oops" constitutes a legitimate blunder by such a manager, it is a fact that managers simply must trust their staff to vet things and do everything reasonable to avoid that blunder. But sh!t happens.
   1467. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 07, 2012 at 06:03 PM (#4319703)
And why the gilded city of San Francisco and the even more gilded Borough of Manhattan voted overwhelmingly for Obama.

One-Percenters who vote for Dems are covered by the "rare exceptions" clause.
   1468. Lassus Posted: December 07, 2012 at 06:08 PM (#4319705)
Anyone have a tissue? "Infinite Yost (Voxter)" hurt my feelings.

I think you probably misunderstood the purpose of his comment.


So I greatly preferred Thanksgiving (no church, no presents)

I think they mis-diagnosed your brain damage as diabetes. (That being said, I hear you on the catholic families angle. My extended family thought I was the greatest kid on the planet because I always did the dishes every holiday. Only my mother and my sister knew it was because I couldn't really stand anyone but them and it was an hour I could stay away from everyone else.)
   1469. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: December 07, 2012 at 06:10 PM (#4319709)
That's a fair assessment.
   1470. Tilden Katz Posted: December 07, 2012 at 06:12 PM (#4319711)
One-Percenters who vote for Dems are covered by the "rare exceptions" clause.


Obama got about 45% of the highest-income demographics, including more than 40% of men in those categories (so there's not much of a "war on women" angle there). Income (and education outside of those at the very bottom or very top of the spectrum) is not nearly as determinative as race, church attendance, union affiliation, etc.
   1471. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 07, 2012 at 06:12 PM (#4319712)
I think you probably misunderstood the purpose of his comment.

And he clearly misunderstood mine, as his goofy "Eichmann" crap shows.
   1472. The Good Face Posted: December 07, 2012 at 06:17 PM (#4319714)
Anybody dumb and/or careless enough to shoot off his own penis and testicles is somebody who has no business using them in the first place. The penis and testicles that is. Yet another example of guns making America safer and better.


A Darwin Awards fan I presume?


Do you really need to ask?
   1473. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 07, 2012 at 06:22 PM (#4319719)
Obama got about 45% of the highest-income demographics, including more than 40% of men in those categories (so there's not much of a "war on women" angle there).

First the "war on women" led to the biggest-ever gender gap in a presidential election, and now, barely a month later, there was no "war on women" (or there was a "war on women" that had little or no impact). I guess history really is written by the winners.
   1474. Tilden Katz Posted: December 07, 2012 at 06:31 PM (#4319722)
First the "war on women" led to the biggest-ever gender gap in a presidential election, and now, barely a month later, there was no "war on women" (or there was a "war on women" that had little or no impact). I guess history really is written by the winners.


Huh? I think it's pretty clear the Republican stated opposition to reproductive rights had an impact on all female voters (Obama won women making between $100,000-$200,000 but double digits, while losing men in that bracket by a slightly smaller margin). But the fact that Obama did not get blown out of the water among wealthy men also indicates that that group also had significant reason to, in your words, vote against their economic interest.
   1475. Manny Coon Posted: December 07, 2012 at 06:35 PM (#4319725)
I am an atheist who likes Christmas, but that's because there are two Christmases -- a Christian Christmas with Nativity scenes, midnight Mass, Silent Night, and advent calendars. Then there is the secular Christmas with Christmas trees, Frosty the snowman, presents, and mistletoe. The latter is the Christmas I celebrate.

Given that Christians appropriated Saturnalia from the pagans to begin with, I don't think they have grounds to argue with secular appropriation of the holiday in return.


Me, my wife and our families are non-religious and love Christmas. It's basically the second kind you mentioned above (sometimes we call it Japanese Christmas, although that is a little different too), but in addition to the more secular stuff we certainly don't mind seeing lit up nativity scenes and hearing certain religious Christmas songs, Nat King Cole can sing whatever he wants whether it's Christmas Song or O Come All Ye Faithful. Sometimes I just pretend Christmas songs about the birth of Christ are about my daughter instead though, makes them more fun. You don't need Christianity to make a great holiday out family, giving and new beginnings.

The whole war on Christmas thing is completely stupid.
   1476. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: December 07, 2012 at 06:36 PM (#4319726)
Did someone say Republican War on Women?


LANSING, Mich. (WXYZ) - A package of bills was approved by the Michigan Senate that would ban state health care exchanges and insurance companies from covering abortions.

The only exception would be if a woman's life was at risk.

There would be no exceptions granted for rape, incest or if a woman was likely to suffer health complications during the pregnancy.

Senate bills 612, 613 and 614 passed mostly along party lines Thursday with most republicans voting yes.

Companies would be allowed to offer an optional rider, which would require an additional payment for supplemental coverage for an abortion.

Supporters of the bill say people shouldn't have to make payments into an insurance pool that covers abortion if the procedure goes against their moral beliefs.


The Republican controlled Senate also passed "Bill 975, the 'Religious Liberty and Conscience Protection Act,' an extremely broad bill which would permit any provider or facility to declare a conscientious objection to performing any medical service" and is slated to pass a version of "HB 5711, — a massive 50-page bill that would eliminate the use of medication abortion and impose a ton of physical plant requirements on abortion providers that could shut down almost every clinic in the state" next week.
   1477. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: December 07, 2012 at 06:38 PM (#4319727)
For anyone excited about The DayZ, the lead programmer is the same guy who created the notoriously amazing Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing.
   1478. spike Posted: December 07, 2012 at 06:38 PM (#4319728)
I guess history really is written by the winners.

A practice made much easier by the continuance of the losers to engage in it - Eric Cantor's insistence that the provision allowing prosecution of non-Indians for domestic violence against Indians by reservation authorities be stricken from the VAWA reauthorization, for example.
   1479. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 07, 2012 at 06:42 PM (#4319733)
Did someone say Republican War on Women?


LANSING, Mich. (WXYZ) - A package of bills was approved by the Michigan Senate that would ban state health care exchanges and insurance companies from covering abortions.

The only exception would be if a woman's life was at risk.

There would be no exceptions granted for rape, incest or if a woman was likely to suffer health complications during the pregnancy.

Senate bills 612, 613 and 614 passed mostly along party lines Thursday with most republicans voting yes.

Companies would be allowed to offer an optional rider, which would require an additional payment for supplemental coverage for an abortion.

Not forcing people to pay for something for other people now constitutes a "war" on the previous beneficiaries. Only in America.
   1480. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 07, 2012 at 06:46 PM (#4319736)
A practice made much easier by the continuance of the losers to engage in it - Eric Cantor's insistence that the provision allowing prosecution of non-Indians for domestic violence against Indians by reservation authorities be stricken from the VAWA reauthorization, for example.

Resisting efforts to require non-Native American men to submit to tribal courts rather than U.S. courts is now part of the "war on women"?
   1481. Tilden Katz Posted: December 07, 2012 at 06:49 PM (#4319738)
Not forcing people to pay for something now constitutes a "war" on the previous beneficiaries. Only in America.


Can I get my money back for the Iraq War? Abstinence-only sex-ed? Prison expenditures for prosecuting the drug war?
   1482. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 07, 2012 at 06:59 PM (#4319745)
Can I get my money back for the Iraq War? Abstinence-only sex-ed? Prison expenditures for prosecuting the drug war?

Sure, a "war on taxpayers." Sounds awesome. But as a lefty, you should probably beware of unintended consequences.
   1483. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: December 07, 2012 at 06:59 PM (#4319746)
First the "war on women" led to the biggest-ever gender gap in a presidential election, and now, barely a month later, there was no "war on women" (or there was a "war on women" that had little or no impact). I guess history really is written by the winners.


Huh? I think it's pretty clear the Republican stated opposition to reproductive rights had an impact on all female voters (Obama won women making between $100,000-$200,000 but double digits, while losing men in that bracket by a slightly smaller margin). But the fact that Obama did not get blown out of the water among wealthy men also indicates that that group also had significant reason to, in your words, vote against their economic interest.

Joe's take is basically that there isn't any Republican war on women's rights, but that women are too stupid not to know that, and fall for feminist propaganda. Just as Latinos only vote their economic interests, Jews pray at the Karl Marx Temple, Asians are too stupid to know that they're being robbed by taxes, blacks are hopelessly influenced by workless welfare inducements and free cell phones**, and conservative Latinos who say that the Republicans blew it on immigration aren't really conservatives or even real Latinos, but white Puerto Ricans who are trying to pull a fast one. The man's got an explanation for everything, and it's truly a wonder to behold.

**Wait, that one may be Ray, though I doubt if Joe would disagree.
   1484. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 07, 2012 at 07:01 PM (#4319748)

Resisting efforts to require non-Native American men to submit to tribal courts rather than U.S. courts is now part of the "war on women"?


Usually non-Native authorities are distant and unavailable (or unwilling) to intervene. And non-Native men know this. 86% of rapes on reservations are committed by non-Native men. And they're getting away with it. So without the ability of tribal authorities to exercise jurisdiction, women will continue to suffer.
   1485. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 07, 2012 at 07:07 PM (#4319749)
So I realize we don't care about this anymore, but a surprising Jobs report:
...
A weird report. It seems superficially strong to post such a good number with the Sandy tailwind, but the downward revisions for previous months make it seem less impressive.

Or they're just not that good at counting, as the non-stop revisions would suggest.


You realize that the jobs report is really just a poll, right?
   1486. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 07, 2012 at 07:15 PM (#4319753)
Usually non-Native authorities are distant and unavailable (or unwilling) to intervene. And non-Native men know this. 86% of rapes on reservations are committed by non-Native men. And they're getting away with it. So without the ability of tribal authorities to exercise jurisdiction, women will continue to suffer.

How will this proposed law change that? According to the linked article, it only covers domestic violence.

***
You realize that the jobs report is really just a poll, right?

Yes ... and?
   1487. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 07, 2012 at 08:23 PM (#4319764)
Yes ... and?


And you still haven't grown a sense of humor.
   1488. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 07, 2012 at 08:49 PM (#4319769)
You realize that the jobs report is really just a poll, right?


So the revision is them unskewing it?
   1489. zenbitz Posted: December 07, 2012 at 09:50 PM (#4319787)
Under current law, the Treasury is technically allowed to mint as many coins made of platinum as it wants and can assign them whatever value it pleases.


I have said repeatedly that inflation will solve both the public and private debt problems. And probably won't even ding the economy as long as wages rise in lock step. Screws old people and the banks. Sign me up!


   1490. zenbitz Posted: December 07, 2012 at 09:54 PM (#4319789)

I can't decide which I hate more about Christmas: The Smarmy Spirituality or the Crass Commercialism.
   1491. Lassus Posted: December 07, 2012 at 10:34 PM (#4319799)
I can't decide which I hate more about Christmas: The Smarmy Spirituality or the Crass Commercialism.

I combat these tiresome parts of Christmas by getting joy out of making them even worse for people like you. It's the most wonderful time of the year!
   1492. Jay Z Posted: December 08, 2012 at 01:41 AM (#4319838)
All I know about the universe is it would make much more sense if none of it exists. Otherwise some sort of lame origin story is required, god or no god. Either something was created, or it exists forever, neither of which make any sense at all. Nothingness is simple, clean, elegant. But who is so lucky as to be born into a complete void?
   1493. Dan The Mediocre Posted: December 08, 2012 at 10:20 AM (#4319880)
All I know about the universe is


that it's turtles all the way down.
   1494. McCoy Posted: December 08, 2012 at 10:33 AM (#4319884)
I can't decide which I hate more about Christmas: The Smarmy Spirituality or the Crass Commercialism.

The decorating.
   1495. Swoboda is freedom Posted: December 08, 2012 at 10:43 AM (#4319887)
The Smarmy Spirituality or the Crass Commercialism.

There is a handle for the taking.
   1496. Steve Treder Posted: December 08, 2012 at 12:46 PM (#4319925)
The decorating.

Specifically, the stringing of the f@cking lights on the f@cking tree.

Everything else is delightful.
   1497. OCF Posted: December 08, 2012 at 12:55 PM (#4319931)
Now that we're getting pretty close to final numbers (not quite there yet), some fun with vote totals. Or a look at how the most profound R/D split isn't so much north/south or state vs. state as it is urban vs. less urban. What do the net margins (in total votes) between the two candidates look like on a county-by-county basis?

As far as I can tell, the largest net margin for Romney in any one county comes from Maricopa County, AZ, at about 148,000. There are five counties in California alone with a bigger margin than that in Obama's favor: Contra Costa 154K, San Francisco 255K, Santa Clara 276K, Alameda 362K, and Los Angeles 1332K. (Not sure what county Steve Treder lives in - if it's not one of the ones above, then it would be San Mateo and that's 133K.)

That million and a third makes Los Angeles County Obama's best county in terms of net margin. Cook County, IL is about a million - latest numbers I found were 993K.

Largest net margin for Romney in California was Orange County at about 70K. You see a lot of speculation about "when will Texas turn purple". Whenever that is, I'll bet that Orange County gets there sooner - more Latinos, more Chinese and Koreans, younger Vietnamese turning away from their parents' politics, and so on.
   1498. Steve Treder Posted: December 08, 2012 at 01:10 PM (#4319936)
(Not sure what county Steve Treder lives in - if it's not one of the ones above, then it would be San Mateo and that's 133K.)

Santa Clara. Yeah baby.

As far as I can tell, the largest net margin for Romney in any one county comes from Maricopa County, AZ, at about 148,000.

Oh, my poor daughter. That's her county of residence. Not coincidentally, she HATES living in Arizona.
   1499. zenbitz Posted: December 08, 2012 at 01:25 PM (#4319938)
I only dislike decorating when forced (at gunpoint!)
   1500. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 08, 2012 at 01:31 PM (#4319941)
As far as I can tell, the largest net margin for Romney in any one county comes from Maricopa County, AZ, at about 148,000.


Looks like embracing Sheriff Joe paid off.
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