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Sunday, December 02, 2012

OTP December 2012 - Pushing G.O.P. to Negotiate, Obama Ends Giving In

Mr. Obama, scarred by failed negotiations in his first term and emboldened by a clear if close election to a second, has emerged as a different kind of negotiator in the past week or two, sticking to the liberal line and frustrating Republicans on the other side of the bargaining table.

Bitter Mouse Posted: December 02, 2012 at 11:15 PM | 6172 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   1801. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 11, 2012 at 09:05 AM (#4321608)
---That 47% came in spite of an economy with an unemployment rate that stayed between 8% and 10% (or higher, if you go by Joe's "unskewed" metrics) for nearly the entire last four years. Just imagine what that percentage might have sunk to if unemployment had been closer to 5% rather than 8%. Right now the GOP's main electoral strategy seems to be rooting for an economic collapse.

Wait, now who's "unskewing" Nate? I thought the main basis of Nate's early and consistent prediction of an Obama win was that the fundamentals of the race pointed to a 2- to 3-point Obama win despite the weak economy?


That's absolutely correct, even though the "unskewing" in this case was in reference to your unemployment rate unskewing, and not Nate's projections.

And so what's your solution to the fundamentals, when the fundamentals say that you can't unseat a not particularly popular incumbent in a time of 8% (or more, according to your unskewed metrics) unemployment?

So far you've shot down every possible solution, most of which center around moderating your party's unpopular social views that seem to increase the turnout of the opposition more than it does your own. You've pretty much written off the votes of every group other than white men and extreme social conservatives. You've got an answer for why every one of these groups votes Democratic, but you haven't told us how you expect that to change, beyond rooting for an even worse economy.

Again, where are those extra votes going to come from? You think that the black vote will drop without a black candidate at the top of the ticket, which is admittedly likely. But what's your contingency in the event that you're up against Hillary Clinton, whose personal popularity among all groups except blacks far exceeds that of Obama, and whose "base" is 51% of the population rather than 11% or 12%? Beyond once again praying for another Depression, are you seriously thinking that Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio is the answer to the first female presidential candidate to be nominated by a major political party?

And the 5 percent unemployment hypothetical doesn't tell us anything; any scandal-free incumbent should win in a walk if the economy is booming.

Yes, but this time the unemployment rate was 8%, and your man still lost by 4%. And here I thought that Pollyanna was a girl.
   1802. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 11, 2012 at 09:06 AM (#4321609)
i have no idea what is meant by the term 'political marketing'.

i am speaking to the people i know, the people with whom i am friends, the people who are all either cowby or raider or steeler fans because that is the nfl football that was broadcast into mexico in the early 70's (why, i have no idea), these the people who are my frame of reference. good people. hardworking people. people of faith.

anyone who is writing off people with that background as potential gop voters is a wangdoodle. it's just ridiculous to think that way.

and of course it's more complex than mere immigration as a topic but being associated with groups that are plainly demonizing latinos for whatever bizarre purpose is not helping the gop brand and causes all other messaging to be lost.

period.
   1803. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 11, 2012 at 09:21 AM (#4321616)
His incredible mishandling of Katrina wasn't an unfortunate mistake, not to be repeated, but the inevitable outcome of three decades of contempt for government and the simple refusal to understand how it works, and to learn how to make it work, on behalf of the electorate.


Funny, a lot of folks are saying the government's handling of Sandy has been worse than for Katrina. Meet the new boss.....
   1804. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 11, 2012 at 09:21 AM (#4321617)
speaking to things of immediate importance it's worth mentioning on how selfish interests are helping the speaker possibly broker a deal.

congressman ryan has presidential aspirations. he likely doesn't want to be associated with a recession. congressman cantor apparently is considering a run at senator or governor. so same.

meanwhile, the guy with no such ambition is the speaker who may have the cleanest hands in this process as he wants a deal because maybe he thinks its the right thing to do versus just trying to help himself.

   1805. Lassus Posted: December 11, 2012 at 09:24 AM (#4321619)
Of course, "bigoted dicks to Latinos" is a fiction you invented.

Even if I granted that was true, are you also saying I invented the fiction that a significant portion of the GOP are perceived as bigoted dicks?


Funny, a lot of folks are saying the government's handling of Sandy has been worse than for Katrina.

They are? Where?
   1806. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 11, 2012 at 09:25 AM (#4321620)
cold

what folks? being old and a lover of the weather channel i have followed the aftermath of the hurricane pretty carefully. other than the usual griping that comes with any cleanup effort who is stating that the government has failed on a large scale? certainly the governor of new jersey has received rave reviews.
   1807. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 11, 2012 at 09:28 AM (#4321624)
being associated with groups that are plainly demonizing latinos for whatever bizarre purpose is not helping the gop brand and causes all other messaging to be lost


QFT. It is not about Amnesty means more GOP votes there is a total package of GOP positions that clearly turns off pretty much every ethnic group out there (now starting to include Cubans, which is new).

Regarding Pawlenty, he wasn't going to win. He would have fought well and recieved a percent or two more than Romney because he is a better technical politician, but boring.

In 2016 in favor of the GOP you have:
* 8 year fatigue with Democrats
* New candidate (likely not a retread)
* Likely no minority (non-white) Democratic candidate
* Not going against an incumbent (I doubt Biden wins nomination to inherit semi-incumbency)
* Possible changes to states apportioning electoral votes by house district (which clearly favors GOP)
* The Democratic parties lack of infighting may break by this point to a more natural state of Democratic disunity

The Democrats have:
* Demographic changes continue including
- All the cohorts of the fastest growing parts of the population are pro-Dem
- Older voters supporting GOP social agenda die off (slowly)
- Younger voters which are strongly democratic age into voting, and age in chorts which vote more
- Likely some form of amnesty will release a whole bunch more Democratic leaning voters into the pool
* The GOP crazy brigade will still be going strong saying dumb things about Women, Minorities, Science, ...
* The national popular vote intitiative will be continuing

The wildcard is of course the economy, world affairs, and who gets chosen as candidates - and who the heck knows at that point. I think you can build a narrative that could favor either party, I think the most important features are which is more important 8 year fatigue or demographic changes.
   1808. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 11, 2012 at 09:30 AM (#4321625)
Funny, a lot of folks are saying the government's handling of Sandy has been worse than for Katrina.


Third with the "really"? (and preemptive cokes as needed)

In reality the response may have been worse (I doubt it, but it is possible), but the narrative from the MSM (liberally biased, naturally) is not that at all.
   1809. JuanGone..except1game Posted: December 11, 2012 at 09:56 AM (#4321641)
Funny, a lot of folks are saying the government's handling of Sandy has been worse than for Katrina. Meet the new boss.....


Hasn't everyone forgotten that Obama's economy is worse than W Bush's, Benghazi is worse than 9/11, Fast and Furious is worse than Iran Contra and Solyndra is worse than Watergate for these partisans. Asking for any sense of proportion or objective lens during the era of Obama is impossible for some on the Right.
   1810. spike Posted: December 11, 2012 at 10:02 AM (#4321646)
Perhaps he meant to say "a lot of funny folks" which is all too true.
   1811. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 11, 2012 at 10:22 AM (#4321658)
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/07/exclusive-fema-teams-told-to-ightsee-as-sandy-victims-suffered/

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/11/30/staten-island-residents-vent-frustration-at-fema-other-agencies-during-town/

http://newsjunkiepost.com/2012/11/28/will-femas-handling-of-sandy-be-obamas-katrina/

From the above:
Kristopher Irizarry-Hosekema, a displaced and disabled Atlantic City resident who suffers from MS and seizures, spent a few days in the Convention Center with his service dog, Birdie. “The Convention Center looked like a police state,” Irizarry-Hokesema said. “There were local and state police; even corrections officers, but no FEMA workers to be found except for two men who were taking applications for disaster relief. I had many questions on what was going on and received no answers, only heckling from the police when I threatened to go to the press about the incompetence of FEMA when I found out that volunteers and supplies were being turned away at the door when they were desperately needed.”
.......
FEMA’s response has been highly criticized by those who have been affected on the East Coast. Food, bottled water, generators, shelter, clothing and gasoline shortages have been reported all throughout the hurricane zone when the FEMA warehouse in Atlanta Georgia remains stocked to the gills and has had plenty of notice of the impending storm.


http://www.sott.net/article/253953-FEMAs-Camp-Freedom-for-Hurricane-Sandy-victims-Disaster-relief-or-just-a-disaster

From the above:
The intrepid reporter decided to risk the displeasure of the guards and he was shocked by what he saw. The camp is surrounded by razor wire topped fences and, unbelievably, Blackhawk helicopters fly overhead. Guards are everywhere, heat is in short supply and camp residents line up in the cold to use portable toilets. The victims of Hurricane Sandy are required to wear special id tags at all times and in Edelson's own words, "it more closely resembles a prison camp."

Since the press is not permitted inside the camp, Edelson was forced to talk to some of the residents outside the fences. Hopefully they were not subjected to any retribution when they returned to the camp.

Brian Sotelo was one of the camp residents willing to come outside and talk. He was furious at the treatment inside the fences and he was reaching his breaking point. Sotelo and his wife and three kids were transferred to Camp Freedom from another collection point just before the hurricane struck, and he was stunned by what he has seen since his arrival.

"Sitting there last night you could see your breath. At (Pine Belt) the Red Cross made an announcement that they were sending us to permanent structures up here that had just been redone, that had washing machines and hot showers and steady electric, and they sent us to tent city. We got (expletive). The elections are over and here we are. There were Blackhawk helicopters flying over all day and night. They have heavy equipment moving past the tents all night."

"My 6-year-old daughter Angie was a premie and has a problem regulating her body temperature. Until 11 (Wednesday) night they had no medical personnel at all here, not even a nurse. After everyone started complaining and they found out we were contacting the press, they brought people in. Every time we plugged in an iPhone or something, the cops would come and unplug them. Yet when they moved us in they laid out cable on the table and the electricians told us they were setting up charging stations. But suddenly there wasn't enough power."

"Everybody is angry over here. It's like being prison. I've been working since I was 10. I've been on my own since I was 16. And for things to be so bad that it's pissing me off, that tells you something."

The cold is so bad that people are huddled in plastic bags and blankets and you can see the steam coming off their breath. When residents of the camp started to complain and they were overheard contacting their family or the press, electrical power was restricted and things started to get ugly. People were told they could not take pictures, the wifi was disconnected and charging stations for cell phones suddenly had no juice.



And of course these are conservative sites, the liberal ones have never taken Obama to task for anything, so they're not going to start now.

***Important disclaimer***

I am not a Republican/Bush/Romney supporter
   1812. spike Posted: December 11, 2012 at 10:28 AM (#4321661)
Even Bill Kristol says conservatism has become a racket.

I am not a Republican/Bush/Romney supporter

Awful hard to find anyone willing to cop to that these days. Don't feel bad.
   1813. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 11, 2012 at 10:39 AM (#4321668)
And of course these are conservative sites, the liberal ones have never taken Obama to task for anything, so they're not going to start now.


Aren't there news sites neither explicitly liberal or conservative? Really I suspect it is a continuum not binary. Anyway I am not seeing anything near the level or Katrina news coverage. Heck it could be actually handled worse than Katrina was, but the news coverage is nothing near as negative in total. For example Katrina killed Bushes popularity, but Obama is sailing along fairly well.
   1814. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 10:40 AM (#4321670)
The FEMA reeducation camps are real!
   1815. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 11, 2012 at 10:59 AM (#4321688)
Aren't there news sites neither explicitly liberal or conservative?


Yes, but since God has decreed from on high that only a Republican or Democrat, funded by corporate money, can assume national office, anyone not on either of those teams is considered a conspiracy kook.

1814. Slivers of Maranville (SdeB) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 10:40 AM (#4321670)
The FEMA reeducation camps are real!


The typical American "useful idiot" in one line. Rather than accept a personal account from someone living in one of these relief camps, you disregard it and bring in a completely unrelated reference in order to heap scorn on the messenger.
   1816. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: December 11, 2012 at 11:08 AM (#4321695)

The typical American "useful idiot" in one line. Rather than accept a personal account from someone living in one of these relief camps, you disregard it and bring in a completely unrelated reference in order to heap scorn on the messenger.


Oh, come off it.
   1817. JuanGone..except1game Posted: December 11, 2012 at 11:10 AM (#4321698)
Yes, but since God has decreed from on high that only a Republican or Democrat, funded by corporate money, can assume national office, anyone not on either of those teams is considered a conspiracy kook.


What does this have to do with news sites? Let's take Politico, which is a site of "usefull idiots" as you used in your post, but one that has a lot more interest in $ than Democrats/Republicans. If Sandy is such a disaster as Katrina was, why wouldn't that site have an interest in selling that story for eyeballs.

The typical American "useful idiot" in one line. Rather than accept a personal account from someone living in one of these relief camps, you disregard it and bring in a completely unrelated reference in order to heap scorn on the messenger.


Life would be utter hell living in a FEMA camp for anyone, but the reason that they are there is because of a huge natural disaster and a lack of personal resources rather than incompetence. The FEMA camps were on the bottom totem pole of problems for W's Katrina response. Lack of leadership, preparedness and response to the disaster were the sins that most people held W in contempt for. You should read up on Katrina's woes from some of the more non-partisan sources if you want to know what a FEMA calamity looks like.
   1818. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: December 11, 2012 at 11:10 AM (#4321700)
As it happens, in my Comp I classes this semester I asked my students to write about the hurricane (it was kind of unavoidable, as it cost us a week of class). One of the possible topics was evaluating the relief effort in comparison to Katrina. Several students chose this topic...they almost universally began with a thesis statement that claimed Obama had done a better job than Bush...and they universally failed to demonstrate any specific reason why that was the case.

I think evaluating how Obama is "doing" vis a vis Sandy is mostly a matter of optics and messaging. Aside from sending in FEMA and asking for money, what is he supposed to do? Bush's incompetence during Katrina is probably overstated as well...though he does seem to have put a total lackwit in charge of FEMA.
   1819. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 11, 2012 at 11:12 AM (#4321702)
I am not a Republican/Bush/Romney supporter


No, you're just posting crap about black helicopters patrolling FEMA camps.
   1820. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 11, 2012 at 11:15 AM (#4321704)
Bush's incompetence during Katrina is probably overstated as well...though he does seem to have put a total lackwit in charge of FEMA.


These two clauses are contradictory. The very most important and obvious incompetence from Bush with regard to Katrina was that he put a total lackwit in charge of FEMA. It's been said before, but the problem wasn't that Bush was running around personally intervening in an attempt to keep Katrina victims out of food and water. It's that he and his administration staffed the agencies of the government with lackeys, ideologues and donors who had no clue how to run government agencies. (See also NASA.) When you staff a government with people who believe their primary job is to undermine the functioning utility of their departments, you are then responsible for the dysfunction of those departments when it comes back to haunt.
   1821. bunyon Posted: December 11, 2012 at 11:21 AM (#4321708)
I think evaluating how Obama is "doing" vis a vis Sandy is mostly a matter of optics and messaging. Aside from sending in FEMA and asking for money, what is he supposed to do? Bush's incompetence during Katrina is probably overstated as well...though he does seem to have put a total lackwit in charge of FEMA.

I agree with this as well. When your city is wiped out, there really isn't a whole hell of a lot anyone will be able to do in the short-term except minimize discomfort and danger. "Bush's" response to Katrina didn't do a good job of this but had a lot of help from the leaders on the ground. I'd say Obama comes off better than Bush mostly because a) Katrina is near enough in memory that everyone knew people would be paying attention, b) it was in the middle of a campaign when Obama had a lot of PR folks at the ready to put out a good message, c) the head of the federal response wasn't a blithering idiot (this is fair criticism of Bush and credit to Obama), and d) the local leaders in Sandy response seem to be orders of magnitude better than the local leaders in Katrina.

The other quirk to throw in is the failed levies. Once the storm was over in Sandy, it was over. The fact that so much of New Orleans was below sea-level and reliant on the levies made the situation far worse and dragged it out for days, providing great visuals for the TV folks. From what I've read, the places in NY/NJ that were below sea-level didn't do so hot in this storm either. That is just basic physics that the president can't control. If you build a town below sea-level, near the sea, expect disaster.

The idea that POTUS is going to have a direct hand in helping folks in the near term in such a disaster doesn't make much sense. But it is a great opportunity to look like an idiot. In this regard, Obama really benefits from Bush and Katrina in that a charming smile and not having the locals cursing your name is seen as a great success.
   1822. bunyon Posted: December 11, 2012 at 11:23 AM (#4321709)
It's that he and his administration staffed the agencies of the government with lackeys, ideologues and donors who had no clue how to run government agencies. (See also NASA, DOD, State, Treasury, CIA...


Fixed.
   1823. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 11, 2012 at 11:25 AM (#4321711)
These two clauses are contradictory. The very most important and obvious incompetence from Bush with regard to Katrina was that he put a total lackwit in charge of FEMA.


QFT. Putting the right people in charge of various portions of the executive branch is a very important and underrated part of being president. When you are a conservative and believe government is by nature evil and/or inefficient and/or incompetent then it is no surprise your appointments do a terrible job.

Treating governing like patronage, preparing for the next political campaign or without any real forthought has consequences.
   1824. BrianBrianson Posted: December 11, 2012 at 11:31 AM (#4321715)
No, you're just posting crap about black helicopters patrolling FEMA camps.


Exactly; he'd never support atheist socialists like Bush or Romney.
   1825. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 11, 2012 at 11:32 AM (#4321716)
well, i clicked through to the original article which was on nov 10th. sandy hit in and around october 29th.

i have experienced varying degrees of weather induced outages (tornado, snow, ice storms) and for a hurricane i would expect things to pretty much stink within 2 weeks of the event.

i know when my relatives were in cincy feeling the residue of katrina they didn't have power for over a week and that was just downed power lines and the like.

i am all for holding govt accountable but expecting magic is something a child does.
   1826. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 11, 2012 at 11:39 AM (#4321723)
and when i slept in my barn for 2 weeks after the ice storm of 78 because the power was out and the crews couldn't get around because of said ice and my entire business was placed at risk i hunkered down.

i kept the barn warm via any method possible to protect my livestock. sure i had a generator for a while. but eventually the fuel ran out. so then i was burning stuff including chopping down ice laden trees.

i share this not to brag because i was just doing what was needed but to dissuade anyone from saying i don't know what these folks are feeling.

sure i do. it stinks.
   1827. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 11, 2012 at 11:40 AM (#4321724)
No, you're just posting crap about black helicopters patrolling FEMA camps.


Oh right, that could never happen in America. My bad.
   1828. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 11:44 AM (#4321725)
FEMA Undersecretary, 2012: W. Craig Fugate

Qualifications: Former head of Florida Division of Emergency Management, Bureau Chief for Preparedness and Response in the same division, Emergency Manager for Alachua County, FL. Before that, he was a fireman and emergency responder in Alachua County. So he has both administrative and boots-on-the-ground experience with natural disasters.


FEMA Undersecretary, 2005: Michael Brown

Qualifications: A lawyer. That's pretty much it. He was a lawyer for FEMA for a little while before being made its head, and had been involved with some poo-#### race horse outfit -- that's his management experience.


And that, in a nutshell, is the problem with the way Bush ran his government before, during and after Katrina: He didn't appoint competent people to critical positions, apparently because he didn't believe the government was capable of / necessary for much. The President cannot (A) change the weather, or (B) personally rescue people from drowning, but he CAN appoint the people who actually coordinate (B). Brown was inexperienced and undisciplined, and a liar to boot. Just because Fox News can't wrap their heads around the fact that the situations are not equivalent does not mean than anybody in particular believes that.
   1829. bunyon Posted: December 11, 2012 at 12:02 PM (#4321740)
i kept the barn warm via any method possible to protect my livestock. sure i had a generator for a while. but eventually the fuel ran out. so then i was burning stuff including chopping down ice laden trees.

i share this not to brag because i was just doing what was needed but to dissuade anyone from saying i don't know what these folks are feeling.


Having lived in both, I'd far rather go through a weather disaster in a rural environment than in an urban environment. Living in a small NY apartment, I would guess it's impossible to outfit oneself to the extent necessary to be self-sufficient when the lights go out. The farmers I knew growing up would take a small step back in lifestyle but any extended trouble was usually met with from scratch solutions. Ice storms were usually adventures (to be fair, Harvey, it wasn't my livelihood on the line) but I could usually get a meal and warm place to sleep in exchange for some, not very demanding, labor on a farm or ranch.

That isn't to rag on urban dwellers (of which I am now one). I have no idea how I'd deal with something like Sandy hitting my city at this point. I have a few more toys that would help than the NY folks but not many. And I don't know any ranchers who would appreciate my help.
   1830. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 11, 2012 at 12:13 PM (#4321744)
bunyon

understood

my larger point is that you are always going to have folks griping after an event. it's the volume and duration of the griping that matters.

as much as i want to swipe at the govt i don't see the opportunity with sandy. i have all kinds of contacts in that area and nobody is telling me anything other than it stinks but that they are muddling through.
   1831. Gotham Dave Posted: December 11, 2012 at 12:14 PM (#4321745)
Sheesh, who let Alex Jones in here?
   1832. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 12:33 PM (#4321756)
I blame the Jews.
   1833. bunyon Posted: December 11, 2012 at 12:33 PM (#4321758)
Right, Harvey. Disasters suck. Having your property destroyed and the lights go out and transportation grind to a halt sucks.

There are simply physical limitations present in the universe as to what we can do. We can't always make everything alright. Certainly not right away. Keep people from dying. Get them back up as fast as possible.
   1834. Morty Causa Posted: December 11, 2012 at 12:42 PM (#4321770)
How long did it take Bush to even acknowledge the havoc Katrina had wreaked, and when did he visit New Orleans? LBJ after Hurricane Betsy was in New Orleans within 24 hours with the ringing words, "This is your Presient. I am here to help you." (And I am no fan of LBJ.) General Honore "the John Wayne dude" of the Louisiana National Guard finally took charge when it became apparent that no civilian official was going to.
   1835. Famous Original Joe C Posted: December 11, 2012 at 12:44 PM (#4321771)
Sheesh, who let Alex Jones in here?


Wake up, sheeple!
   1836. villageidiom Posted: December 11, 2012 at 12:47 PM (#4321776)
And that, in a nutshell, is the problem with the way Bush ran his government before, during and after Katrina: He didn't appoint competent people to critical positions, apparently because he didn't believe the government was capable of / necessary for much. The President cannot (A) change the weather, or (B) personally rescue people from drowning, but he CAN appoint the people who actually coordinate (B). Brown was inexperienced and undisciplined, and a liar to boot.
Bush generally appointed people he trusted, regardless of qualification, and he simply trusted they would not let him down.

Does anyone remember who Candidate W. Bush entrusted with conducting his VP selection? No? It was Dick Cheney. And Cheney essentially told Bush none of the VP candidates were better than himself. So Bush simply chose Cheney.
   1837. I am going to be Frank Posted: December 11, 2012 at 01:12 PM (#4321797)
I mean Dick Cheney, on paper, was qualified for VP.
   1838. just plain joe Posted: December 11, 2012 at 01:32 PM (#4321818)
I mean Dick Cheney, on paper, was qualified for VP.


The only real qualification is to be alive and breathing (and a native born U.S. citizen), so Cheney had that covered.
   1839. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 11, 2012 at 01:33 PM (#4321820)
I mean Dick Cheney, on paper, was qualified for VP.


Cheney was quite possibly the most effective VP in history. I wouldn't confuse the fact that he was evil with incompetence.
   1840. spike Posted: December 11, 2012 at 01:41 PM (#4321824)
I think I'd go with influential rather than effective, if only because the policies Cheney championed weren't, but I agree with your point.
   1841. I am going to be Frank Posted: December 11, 2012 at 01:44 PM (#4321833)
.
The only real qualification is to be alive and breathing (and a native born U.S. citizen), so Cheney had that covered.


You could say that about the President.
   1842. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 01:52 PM (#4321846)
Of course, "bigoted dicks to Latinos" is a fiction you invented.

Even if I granted that was true, are you also saying I invented the fiction that a significant portion of the GOP are perceived as bigoted dicks?


No, but they're "perceived" as so by the same sorts of people who perceive any opposition to same-sex marriage as bigoted.

Funny, a lot of folks are saying the government's handling of Sandy has been worse than for Katrina.

They are? Where?


Various places. A great many people in Staten Island and Long Island have seen their houses and property destroyed. But since they're mostly white, and a Democrat is president, I doubt most liberals care.

Liberals are fond of playing identity politics. So let's play it.
   1843. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 11, 2012 at 01:53 PM (#4321850)
It's that he and his administration staffed the agencies of the government with lackeys, ideologues and donors who had no clue how to run government agencies. (See also NASA, DOD, State, Treasury, CIA...


That's an oversell. Donald Rumsfeld was evil and in thrall of false assumptions (some truly, fantastically stupid false assumptions) about the world, but he wasn't incompetent per se. I don't think anyone would call Condi Rice incompetent, and certainly not Robert Gates. There's a degree of distinction between Rumsfeld or Henry Paulson and "Brownie" and the guy put in charge of NASA.
   1844. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 11, 2012 at 01:54 PM (#4321852)
Various places. A great many people in Staten Island and Long Island have seen their houses and property destroyed. But since they're mostly white, and a Democrat is president, I doubt most liberals care.


Sad troll is sad, Ray.
   1845. Ron J2 Posted: December 11, 2012 at 01:59 PM (#4321858)
#1839 Jonathan Bernstein argues (and persuasively in my opinion) against this:

Quoting from one of his posts last here:

Dick Cheney is a good example of all of this exactly because his prior reputation would never have led people to guess that he'd make such a habit of botching things. And yet, botch things he did, over and over. Not because he didn't understand policy, but because he -- and by extension, George W. Bush -- refused to accept the limitations on the presidency imposed by the Constitutional system of institutions. And as Cheney shows and as Goldsmith says, the consequences are predictable: poor policy execution, followed by a loss of presidential power.

Full Post

He's written more than a little bit on the topic and he's pretty much convinced me that he's right.
   1846. spike Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:04 PM (#4321869)
That's an oversell.

Perhaps, but not by much. 150 Regent law graduates in the Bush administration.Monica Goodling, remember?
   1847. I am going to be Frank Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:05 PM (#4321871)
Various places. A great many people in Staten Island and Long Island have seen their houses and property destroyed. But since they're mostly white, and a Democrat is president, I doubt most liberals care.


What is FEMA supposed to do? No one, including local, state or federal governments can rebuild houses in six weeks.
   1848. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:06 PM (#4321873)
Various places. A great many people in Staten Island and Long Island have seen their houses and property destroyed. But since they're mostly white, and a Democrat is president, I doubt most liberals care.

Liberals are fond of playing identity politics. So let's play it.


Obviously the concern is that Sandy hit so many Real Americans, while Katrina's damage was largely concentrated in the 47-percenters who are lazy and dependent.
   1849. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:07 PM (#4321875)
A great many people in Staten Island and Long Island have seen their houses and property destroyed.


Right. But what is your evidence that the handling of the pre/post disaster actions by the government for Sandy is worse than the same actions for Katrina? Who is saying it is worse, and how are they deciding it is worse than Katrina?
   1850. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:07 PM (#4321878)
erhaps, but not by much. 150 Liberty law graduates in the Bush administration.


So loving Jesus is supposed to disqualify you from public service? I'm glad you were able to clear that up. Shame on you and your War on Christ and Christmas and whatnot.
   1851. Gotham Dave Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:09 PM (#4321883)
A great many people in Staten Island and Long Island have seen their houses and property destroyed.
Yeah, as mentioned above, this really couldn’t have less to do with Obama. The real questions are more along the lines of, have those people had a place to sleep? Have they been able to eat well and shower regularly? Have they been shoved into a football stadium with no leadership or information? (OK, the last one was loaded, I admit it.) I’m not saying that Obama necessarily did great on those scores - I really have no clue, especially given that responsibilities are shared with local government - but “houses got knocked down and cars floated away” is hardly a knock on Obama or FEMA. But you already knew that, didn’t you?
   1852. Lassus Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:15 PM (#4321892)
Various places. A great many people in Staten Island and Long Island have seen their houses and property destroyed. But since they're mostly white, and a Democrat is president, I doubt most liberals care.

Cokes, but this is a weird way to put it. What are you saying here? That the stories of the Jersey shore and Staten Island being destroyed aren't stories? They are. I hear about them evern day. If your point is not enough houses are being rebuilt fast enough, the story of the immense amoutn of government aid and bazillions of dollars has been a story. WTF are you looking for?
   1853. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:18 PM (#4321895)
Taking Staten Island, there was a lack of information and lack of government assistance for weeks as people were left without food/shelter/heat/facilities. Oh, the government was "communicating" -- by sending text messages and tweets... to people without power. I'm not even sure the much maligned Mike Brown would have been that dumb.

If these were mostly minorities and Bush were president, we'd have a reaction from liberals along the lines of what we saw in Katrina -- not as bad, but only because the sheer volume of destruction in New Orleans was worse in that more people were impacted and there was the special levy issue. But the same, shameful themes of racism would have been pimped by liberals.
   1854. Srul Itza Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:19 PM (#4321896)
Please don't feed the troll.
   1855. Ron J2 Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:28 PM (#4321907)
The critical difference I've observed between the response to Katrina and Sandy is the almost complete absence of turf fighting. Christie's getting what he asks for in a timely manner and the Army corps of Engineers has been doing what's needed.

The complaints I've seen are largely directed at local officials. The most important specific complaint I've heard revolves around local authorities interfering and causing delays with things that are on the critical path by demanding action on things that are of objectively lower priority. I know a lot of local engineers were unhappy with the directions they were getting from local officials. But I'm buggered if I can see how that reflects badly on the administration response.
   1856. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:29 PM (#4321908)
Where "troll" is apparently defined as "one who takes issue with the liberal smear attacks."

There's no evidence that Bush was a racist, or that the federal government's major screwup w/r/t Katrina was due to racism. And yet that's what was pimped.
   1857. Steve Treder Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:30 PM (#4321912)
Oh, the government was "communicating" -- by sending text messages and tweets... to people without power. I'm not even sure the much maligned Mike Brown would have been that dumb.

If only there were some sort of handheld device, powered by batteries, that could be used to receive text messages and tweets even by people without AC power.

/troll-feeding
   1858. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:34 PM (#4321919)
There's no evidence that Bush was a racist, or that the federal government's major screwup w/r/t Katrina was due to racism. And yet that's what was pimped.


Your bubble is airtight sometimes, kid.
   1859. Lassus Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:35 PM (#4321920)
Oh, the government was "communicating" -- by sending text messages and tweets... to people without power. I'm not even sure the much maligned Mike Brown would have been that dumb.

Yes, they should have tried to call them on landlines and then looked quizzically at the handset and shrug their shoulders when the call went nowhere.
   1860. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:37 PM (#4321922)
There's no evidence that Bush was a racist, or that the federal government's major screwup w/r/t Katrina was due to racism. And yet that's what was pimped.

Of course. The modern liberal worldview is almost entirely animated by race.(*) They're utterly obsessed with it.

Since they are, they presume everyone else is, and thus anything that a Republican does is based on race. (And the converse is also true, as Andy's running treatise on the 2012 election demonstrates -- minority voting patterns are virtually entirely explained by the degree of "racism" or lack of racial solicitousness they perceive in Whitey.)

(*) Throw envy in there, and you've covered 95%+ of the motivating factors.
   1861. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:39 PM (#4321927)
There's no evidence that Bush was a racist, or that the federal government's major screwup w/r/t Katrina was due to racism. And yet that's what was pimped.


I tend to agree that the "racism" thing was overblown (thanks, Kanye!), but the #### ups were still huge by the Bush government (and his appointed leaders) before and after Katrina struck.

I'm just not seeing how the government has handled things before and after Sandy is worse than before and after Katrina.
You haven't provided any proof or examples.
   1862. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:39 PM (#4321929)
Please don't feed the troll.


But I fear it isn't competent to feed itself. I don't want a troll's starvation to weigh on my conscience.
   1863. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:41 PM (#4321931)
Troll is such a silly word. Grow up.
   1864. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:41 PM (#4321932)
Of course. The modern liberal worldview is almost entirely animated by race.(*) They're utterly obsessed with it.


Yet oddly enough, it wasn't even mentioned in this conversation until Ray brought it up as a bogeyman and you jumped in with the reach-around. So there's that you should account for at some point.
   1865. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:43 PM (#4321934)
If only there were some sort of handheld device, powered by batteries, that could be used to receive text messages and tweets even by people without AC power.

/troll-feeding


iPhones need to be recharged once they go dead, in case you're not aware.
   1866. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:44 PM (#4321938)
Yes, they should have tried to call them on landlines and then looked quizzically at the handset and shrug their shoulders when the call went nowhere.


Actually, people may have had use of their landlines.
   1867. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4321941)
Yet oddly enough, it wasn't even mentioned in this conversation until Ray brought it up as a bogeyman and you jumped in with the reach-around.

Until we jump in, it's presumed. The like-minded don't as a matter of course sit around questioning understood tenets of the catechism, or stating explicitly what is presumed.
   1868. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:46 PM (#4321943)
I tend to agree that the "racism" thing was overblown (thanks, Kanye!), but the #### ups were still huge by the Bush government (and his appointed leaders) before and after Katrina struck.


Oh, I won't disagree that the federal government under Bush screwed up Katrina immensely (*), and a lot of people suffered more for it. It's the racism drumbeat that is moronic.

(*) As did the state and local governments, but one would never know it from the shrieking of "Bush!Bush!Bush" done by liberals.
   1869. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4321944)
Until we jump in, it's presumed.


So you presume that "liberals" presume racism?
   1870. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:48 PM (#4321946)
iPhones need to be recharged once they go dead, in case you're not aware.


And according to the report from the guy staying in the FEMA camp (that's what it is, a camp run by FEMA - I'm not being inflammatory), everyone was told that power was in short supply and they weren't allowed to plug in their devices.
   1871. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:50 PM (#4321948)
Until we jump in, it's presumed.


I will make a good-faithed attempt to adjust all future conversations for your Magical ####### Mindreading Skillz, chief.
   1872. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:53 PM (#4321953)
And according to the report from the guy staying in the FEMA camp (that's what it is, a camp run by FEMA - I'm not being inflammatory), everyone was told that power was in short supply and they weren't allowed to plug in their devices.


Was power in short supply? Was there more important, more fundamental services to be powered by the limited supply? Is there any reason to think that the short supply of power is unreasonable given the facts on the ground?

I find odd that we're talking about Staten Island's slow reconstruction pace when the 9th Ward of NOLA is *still* not rebuilt. Maybe the ladies doth protest too much.
   1873. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:58 PM (#4321957)
I find odd that we're talking about Staten Island's slow reconstruction pace when the 9th Ward of NOLA is *still* not rebuilt. Maybe the ladies doth protest too much.

You don't get it, Sam: The 9th Ward of New Orleans is made up of "takers", who should be grateful that they've still got a football team.
   1874. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:58 PM (#4321959)
So you presume that "liberals" presume racism?


Does it come as a shock to some people that anyone who disagrees with the liberal agenda is branded a racist/sexist/bigot along with a twist of cruel/greedy/selfish?

   1875. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: December 11, 2012 at 03:00 PM (#4321964)
GOP's Boehner says Obama slow-walking cliff talks


Screw the financial cliff, I want to know what I can get that RoboSquirrel
   1876. Gotham Dave Posted: December 11, 2012 at 03:02 PM (#4321966)
Ray, what the #### is your problem? YOU are the one in this thread making Katrina about race. Kanye West /= “Liberals”

Why don’t you stop threatening the life of the President, which, because Ted Nugent did it, is something that Conservatives Do, all the time?
   1877. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 03:02 PM (#4321967)
Does it come as a shock to some people that anyone who disagrees with the liberal agenda is branded a racist/sexist/bigot along with a twist of cruel/greedy/selfish?


Wait a sec, I'm pretty sure Dubya was just stupid.
   1878. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: December 11, 2012 at 03:03 PM (#4321970)
And according to the report from the guy staying in the FEMA camp (that's what it is, a camp run by FEMA - I'm not being inflammatory), everyone was told that power was in short supply and they weren't allowed to plug in their devices.


People say a lot of things that aren't true, or exaggerate things that are true on some level. I'm not ready to indict any government agency based on hearsay from one person who quite likely has an ulterior motive. I'm not saying the guy in the camp lied, but what we have here are disparate, unconfirmed reports that:

a - the government tried to communicate to people in areas without power with texts and tweets and

b - people staying in FEMA camps were not allowed to recharge their cell phones


From this, a conclusion is made that here is a piece of evidence that the government response to Sandy is more incompetent that its response to Katrina. A bit of an overreach I would say.
   1879. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 11, 2012 at 03:04 PM (#4321973)
Was power in short supply?


I don't know, but to charge an iPhone takes 7 measly watt hours of power. I don't know how many people are/were in that camp, but charging 1000 iPhones could be done with one small gas generator, for an hour a day. Why was there razor wire around the camp? These are questions the media should be asking.
   1880. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 11, 2012 at 03:07 PM (#4321976)
I don't know how many people are/were in that camp, but charging 1000 iPhones could be done with one small gas generator, for an hour a day.


Do they have 1000 outlets to connect them?
Will everyone just sit around and watch their iPhones charge, to make sure no one steals them?

Why was there razor wire around the camp? These are questions the media should be asking.


I haven't seen any pictures of the camps. Do you have one that shows the razor wire?
   1881. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: December 11, 2012 at 03:09 PM (#4321979)
Why was there razor wire around the camp?


Maybe to keep people from stealing the generators. Or maybe there was no razor wire. Or maybe there was razor wire around a small, specific area that required high security.
   1882. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 11, 2012 at 03:09 PM (#4321980)
Why was there razor wire around the camp? These are questions the media should be asking.


Keeps the aliens in.
   1883. spike Posted: December 11, 2012 at 03:09 PM (#4321981)
These are questions the media should be asking

AFTER they ask all those questions they were supposed to ask about Benghazi.
   1884. Gotham Dave Posted: December 11, 2012 at 03:10 PM (#4321987)
Why was there razor wire around the camp? These are questions the media should be asking.
It’s really amazing how you know about this, considering that no media are discussing it! I mean, you’ve shown tremendous initiative actually schlepping yourself out to south Jersey and Staten Island to evaluate FEMA’s performance .

Oh wait, you heard about it from media? It’s almost as if you’re talking out of your ass.
   1885. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 11, 2012 at 03:11 PM (#4321988)
Does it come as a shock to some people that anyone who disagrees with the liberal agenda is branded a racist/sexist/bigot along with a twist of cruel/greedy/selfish?


What comes as a shock to no one is that you create this bogeyman "liberal" behavior and then tilt madly at it, Pancho.
   1886. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 11, 2012 at 03:20 PM (#4322000)
Maybe to keep people from stealing the generators. Or maybe there was no razor wire. Or maybe there was razor wire around a small, specific area that required high security.


Maybe razor wire was the most readily available to build the facility at short notice.

Maybe it's the government and their specs say build fences with razor wire, so they did.

Maybe this is an absurd conversation that requires a paranoid-conspiratorial assumption to begin with to even make sense as a question.

What's the implicit argument here? That the government is locking up the good, hardworking white folks of Staten Island in FEMA camps? Are they going to bus in the no-good taker classes from NOLA and give away their houses or something? Or is this something more nefarious to do with mind control and Khan's revenge?
   1887. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: December 11, 2012 at 03:21 PM (#4322001)
Wait a moment...

When residents of the camp started to complain and they were overheard contacting their family or the press, electrical power was restricted and things started to get ugly. People were told they could not take pictures, the wifi was disconnected and charging stations for cell phones suddenly had no juice.


That's from the bottom link in post 1811. So they were allowed to charge their cell phones. Unless they complained about the conditions in the camp. I'd say the former is likely, and the latter extremely unlikely. I'd say the most likely situation is that people were free to charge cell phones, subject only to a possible shortage of outlets.
   1888. I am going to be Frank Posted: December 11, 2012 at 03:21 PM (#4322002)
Its not like people in Staten Island were isolated and cut off from the rest of the world. Plenty of people were without power in the tri-state area (including me) and I found places to charge my phone.
   1889. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: December 11, 2012 at 03:24 PM (#4322008)
Its not like people in Staten Island were isolated and cut off from the rest of the world. Plenty of people were without power in the tri-state area (including me) and I found places to charge my phone.


But that doesn't fit the narrative of the incompetent government on one hand communicating via text and on the other preventing cell phones from being charged.
   1890. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 11, 2012 at 03:25 PM (#4322009)
Its not like people in Staten Island were isolated and cut off from the rest of the world


Well, no more so than they chose to be, intentionally, by living on Staten Island. The big selling point for Staten Islanders prior to the storm, if I understand this correctly (and I'm open to input from more local types) was that it was cut off from the rest of the area. The only access points were ferries, boats and the Verizano Bridge, right? So, when a big ass storm blows through and drops all of the boats into the streets or on top of the docking piers, I would guess that would make getting there to help them more difficult.
   1891. Gotham Dave Posted: December 11, 2012 at 03:27 PM (#4322013)
There’s also a bridge to New Jersey in the southwest (only a <2000 ft channel separates SI from Jersey).
   1892. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 11, 2012 at 03:29 PM (#4322015)
Maybe this is an absurd conversation that requires a paranoid-conspiratorial assumption to begin with to even make sense as a question.

I have no idea what the rightists are even talking about here, but it's bizarre that "paranoid-conspiratorial" would be flung around so blithely by people who presume George Bush's Katrina response was motivated by racial animus.

   1893. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 03:29 PM (#4322016)
Are they going to bus in the no-good taker classes from NOLA and give away their houses or something?


Oh no, Hussein X has much more luxurious accommodations lined up for his swelling army of Afro-jihadists. No buses for your new masters.
   1894. Gotham Dave Posted: December 11, 2012 at 03:30 PM (#4322018)
SSB, Not a single person here (to my knowledge) ever said that Bush’s pathetic Katrina response was motivated by race. Can you please debate with the people that are here instead of those liberals you saw that one time that you didn’t like?
   1895. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 11, 2012 at 03:31 PM (#4322019)
There’s also a bridge to New Jersey in the southwest (only a <2000 ft channel separates SI from Jersey).


I did not know that.
   1896. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 03:33 PM (#4322020)
What comes as a shock to no one is that you create this bogeyman "liberal" behavior and then tilt madly at it, Pancho.


Ok, three questions:

1. Can people oppose same-sex marriage without being bigoted?

2. Can people oppose illegal immigration without being bigoted?

3. Can people oppose wealth redistribution without being some combination of racist/cruel/greedy/selfish?

   1897. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 11, 2012 at 03:33 PM (#4322021)
As an example of 1860, Andy misses the obvious point that if Bush ignored NOLA because it was filled with takers, that would vitiate the explanation that he ignored NOLA because it was primarily black.

Unless by "takers," he thinks Republicans mean only "blacks." In that case, see 1860.
   1898. Gotham Dave Posted: December 11, 2012 at 03:33 PM (#4322022)
Now that I look at a map I see there’s also a NJ bridge in the northwest. I did not know that.

And Ray, to be frank, who ####### cares if someone considers you bigoted for holding those opinions? Is there some kind of bigot tax you have to pay? Does it keep you from getting a job? No, it just hurts your feelings. And I thought liberals were supposed to be the weenies.

There are also obviously non-bigoted reasons to oppose wealth redistribution or illegal immigration. It’s a reeeaaaal stretch with gay marriage, though.
   1899. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 11, 2012 at 03:33 PM (#4322023)
I have no idea what the rightists are even talking about here, but it's bizarre that "paranoid-conspiratorial" would be flung around so blithely by people who presume George Bush's Katrina response was motivated by racial animus.


And to point out the blatantly obvious again, the only people to mention race in the question of Bush's FEMA organization and response are YOU and RAY. But keep tilting, Pancho. Those windmills are totes dragons, brah.
   1900. BDC Posted: December 11, 2012 at 03:34 PM (#4322026)
There are two bridges from SI to NJ (the Goethals and the Outerbridge, mentioned by Gotham Dave). In fact, there are so many bridges in North Jersey that you don't much notice going over to Staten Island any more than crossing the Raritan or any of the huge complex of Meadowlands waterways to the north.

But what of it, I did not come here to post that :) I'd just observe that George W Bush is not personally a racist, and I don't think he had racist policies. The problem is, when you respond to a disaster that has wiped out the homes of so many black people, and put them in extremis, by (a) playing air guitar; (b) saying Brownie's doing a heckuva job; and (c) mourning the loss of Trent Lott's beachfront property – you have to take the perceptions as they come. And you know who's very good at avoiding bad perceptions, except from the delusional right? Barack Obama.
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