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Sunday, December 02, 2012

OTP December 2012 - Pushing G.O.P. to Negotiate, Obama Ends Giving In

Mr. Obama, scarred by failed negotiations in his first term and emboldened by a clear if close election to a second, has emerged as a different kind of negotiator in the past week or two, sticking to the liberal line and frustrating Republicans on the other side of the bargaining table.

Bitter Mouse Posted: December 02, 2012 at 11:15 PM | 6172 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   2001. Gotham Dave Posted: December 11, 2012 at 05:14 PM (#4322217)
Just wait until SSB finds out that there are liberals who are racist against black people. We'd all better stand back so we don't get splattered with a whole bunch of brains. Well, a little bit of brains.
   2002. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 11, 2012 at 05:15 PM (#4322219)
Thus the notorious "Negro Deduction" on federal income tax returns; in the event of an audit, you are expected to be able to pass the "paper bag test". Great for Jay Z, a terrible injustice for one half of Kid-n-Play.


This is funny enough I did not want it to get lost in the flip.
   2003. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 05:17 PM (#4322225)
It's so easy to keep going and never have to think about another possibility when you just make up #### as you go, huh?


Please consider the following quotes, none of them made up:

March 27, 2006: "Members of the Duke men's lacrosse team: You know. We know you know. Whatever happened in the bathroom at the stripper party gone terribly terribly bad, you know who was involved." Ruth Sheehan, News & Observer.

March 27: "At the intersection of entitlement and enablement, there is Duke University, virtuous on the outside, debauched on the inside...a group of privileged players of fine pedigree entangled in a night that threatens to belie their social standing as human beings." New York Times columnist Selena Roberts, railing against a "code of silence."

March 28: "There's no question the student-athletes were probably guilty of all the usual offenses--underage drinking, loud partying, obnoxious behavior. But the allegations of rape bring the students' arrogant frat-boy culture to a whole new, sickening level." Herald-Sun editorial.

March 29: "I don't fault the girl for not keeping up with the news and the history of rich brats who get drunk and don't know how to act... Those animals reportedly kicked her around like a dog." John McCann, Herald-Sun.

March 31: "There's something disgustingly wrong when a Duke University men's lacrosse team puts some skewed code of silence ahead of telling Durham, N.C., police everything they know. [Not one of the players] has broken ranks and spoken to investigators about what happened at the house that night. The code is that strong." Johnette Howard, Newsday.

March 31, 2006: "I'm so glad they didn't miss a lacrosse game over a little thing like gang rape!" CNN Headline News' Nancy Grace.

March 31: "The racially charged lacrosse team sexual assault scandal that is roiling Duke University has also exposed deep divisions between the elite private school and the more humble Tobacco Road community that surrounds it." USA Today.

March 31: "The question: Did a group of privileged white athletes commit a racially tinged and violent crime?" ABC's Nightline.

April 2: "University rape highlights racial divisions in South." London's Sunday Telegraph.

April 10, after defense attorneys announced that DNA results found no links to the students: "Look, I think the real key here is that these guys, like so many rapists--and I'm going to say it because, at this point, she's entitled to the respect that she is a crime victim." Wendy Murphy to Nancy Grace.

April 16: "Lax Environment; Duke lacrosse scandal reinforces a growing sense that college sports are out of control, fueled by pampered athletes with a sense of entitlement," LA Times headline.

April 25: "[The accusations of rape against "generally privileged, younger white men conjures up memories of that classic American sex story: the pretty female slave being summoned up to the big house to sexually satisfy the master." Time magazine's Jeninne Lee-St. John.

May 3: "I'd even go so far as to say I bet one or more of the players was, you know, molested or something as a child." Wendy Murphy.

June 5: "Hitler never beat his wife either. So what?" "I never, ever met a false rape claim, by the way. My own statistics speak to the truth." Wendy Murphy.

As Nifong's case was fracturing, this from the New York Times hard news story by Duff Wilson, from the unbiased liberal media: "By disclosing pieces of evidence favorable to the defendants, the defense has created an image of a case heading for the rocks. But an examination of the entire 1,850 pages of evidence gathered by the prosecution in the four months after the accusation yields a more ambiguous picture. It shows that while there are big weaknesses in Mr. Nifong's case, there is also a body of evidence to support his decision to take the matter to a jury."

-------------

Is that enough to cause you to engage in self awareness, Sam?
   2004. Gotham Dave Posted: December 11, 2012 at 05:19 PM (#4322227)
Considering that none of those are attributed to Sam Hutchenson, I don't really see why it should be.
   2005. Lassus Posted: December 11, 2012 at 05:20 PM (#4322231)
I would guess unless you lived or have family there, most New Yorkers would never even set foot on Staten Island

1.) Staten Island Yankees - great ballpark to see a game in, even if they are satanists in training.
2.) They have a pretty nice not-expensive public golf course in the hills I've played on that I can't remember the name of.
   2006. JuanGone..except1game Posted: December 11, 2012 at 05:22 PM (#4322232)
A southern cracker bigot may be a "racist." That doeesn't mean he's obsessed with race, in the sense that he sits around all day explaining things in a way that race is the pivot around which all his explanations revolve. He does neither really; the obsession I'm talking about takes both intellect and contemplation. It's not meant to be a slur; it's more descriptive and sociological.


Your so right. Every Friday night my liberals friends are always debating Eminem and Rakim for best rapper alive. I mean it starts with "Eminem is the best". Then someone is like "Well, he's white and that's black music so we should count his as 3/5th's as good as Rakim to make reparations for the pre-13th Amendment period" Then someone will be like "Well, we want to make sure that Latino rappers have a place in this competition, so I nominate Big Pun" Then the first friend is like "There should be two categories for Hispanic and Non-Hispanic Latino's". And on and on.

I won't even get into our discussions of the Grey's Anatomy cast.
   2007. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 11, 2012 at 05:24 PM (#4322233)
Is that enough to cause you to engage in self awareness, Sam?


Jesus, Ray. Half or more of those quotes don't even support your thesis. Aren't you a lawyer? Aren't you supposed to be good at constructing arguments?!
   2008. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 11, 2012 at 05:25 PM (#4322237)
2.) They have a pretty nice not-expensive public golf course in the hills I've played on that I can't remember the name of.


The "It's Nice But You Have To Go To Staten Island" Country Club, I think.
   2009. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: December 11, 2012 at 05:26 PM (#4322239)
I have never benefitted from white privilege and would not have benefitted from it in its heyday. (A heyday you can read about, in grand detail, in the Joe Kennedy biography that just came out.)

Ive never been more eager to institute a measure of Primate transparency than I am now, after reading this curious statement. Please don't spare us the details of your lucky life and your even more unusual ancestors. For starters, how old are you, where were you born, and where were you raised? And don't worry, I don't own any black helicopters.

Of course if you're not white, then your statement makes a bit more sense. But let's go to the videotape before we start saying anything more.
   2010. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: December 11, 2012 at 05:27 PM (#4322240)
Your so right. Every Friday night my liberals friends are always debating Eminem and Rakim for best rapper alive. I mean it starts with "Eminem is the best". Then someone is like "Well, he's white and that's black music so we should count his as 3/5th's as good as Rakim to make reparations for the pre-13th Amendment period" Then someone will be like "Well, we want to make sure that Latino rappers have a place in this competition, so I nominate Big Pun" Then the first friend is like "There should be two categories for Hispanic and Non-Hispanic Latino's". And on and on.


You are clearly a misogynist. The best rapper is a differently-abled and preferably obese lower class white woman over 40.
   2011. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 11, 2012 at 05:29 PM (#4322242)
#2003. That's a whole bunch of information about something a while back that pretty much no one is arguing about (except you I guess). The Duke L. case was a mess and poorly handled by many (including the NYT).

The NYT also screwed up the run up to the Iraq war in a huge nasty way. Breaking news, organization make mistakes. How does this speak to liberals and their obsession with race?

And no, I (and I hope no one here) wants to religitgate the Duke L. case. I remember you as being very gung ho on it back then and clearly still are, but it just is not that interesting or significant. For example the Obama/Clinton primary battle speaks much more clearly the the mind of liberals than does the Duke L. case.

EDIT: I guess Sam is sort of engaging you on this, so my saying it was just you is a bit of an overstatement.
   2012. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: December 11, 2012 at 05:31 PM (#4322246)
My bigotry in the Duke lacrosse case had nothing to do with race and everything to do with the fact that I spent most of the first 18 years of my life in the vicinity of Duke's campus and desperately want to crucify most of those #######. I will happily crucify Dookies of every race, creed, and religion. Show me a transgendered Indonesian Muslim in a Duke sweatshirt and I'll show you someone I want to nail to a ####### tree.
   2013. Ron J2 Posted: December 11, 2012 at 05:32 PM (#4322248)
Ray, Nancy Grace is no liberal and I'd have to say that she was:

a) the most strident voice in the pro-railroad crowd
b) the second most influential. Maybe even more influential than the NYT editorial board since she hammered home the same talking points repeatedly.
   2014. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 11, 2012 at 05:35 PM (#4322250)
a growing sense that college sports are out of control, fueled by pampered athletes with a sense of entitlement


Is this even under debate any more? Of course college sports are out of control. Perhaps what is fueling it is more up for debate, can the various head coaches, college boosters and NCAA officials come to the front of the room and join the overly entitled athletes (who nevertheless are being taken advantage of in some of the sports)?
   2015. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 05:40 PM (#4322255)
Ron, saying that Grace is "the most strident voice" is akin to deeming one cobra in a pack of them to be more vicious than the rest.

Bitter Mouse:

Is this even under debate any more? Of course college sports are out of control.


You need to define "out of control" first. Yes, they are "out of control" in various ways - some of which I've highlighted - but gang raping black women and then forming a code of silence to protect the gang rapists because they are teammates is not one of them.
   2016. zenbitz Posted: December 11, 2012 at 05:40 PM (#4322257)
Ok, three questions:


C'mon people, I can't be the only one willing to rise to this bait!!!

1. Can people oppose same-sex marriage without being bigoted?


Yes! If, for example, they are also against opposite-sex marriage. Or if they work for the OED and don't want to change the definition.
Or, they could be just stupid. E.g., if you really liked gay people (so not bigoted) but felt (stupidly) that allowing gays to marriage would shatter society and cause the collapse of civilization.

2. Can people oppose illegal immigration without being bigoted?

Tricky one, there. Because illegal immigrants come from all cultures -- on the face of it, it appears to be a purely legalistic or financial motivation. But if your solutions are (or are extremely likely) to be implemented in a biased fashion, then they are bigoted solutions. For example, restricting immigration visas from China and India is a bigoted policy. If you support this, then you either don't understand bigotry, or a bigot.


3. Can people oppose wealth redistribution without being some combination of racist/cruel/greedy/selfish?


Not in general, no. You could oppose certain types or implementations of wealth distribution because they were inefficient or likely to do more harm than good. (There, I left you an out). I would have to see some pretty impressive data of the latter, however.
   2017. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 11, 2012 at 05:41 PM (#4322259)
Nancy Grace is no liberal and I'd have to say that she was


...the source of disdain from all corners of BBTF, resulting in her getting shot into the sun, if my terrible memory is to be believed. Of course I could not pick her out of a lineup, but I think that is a point in my favor actually.
   2018. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 11, 2012 at 05:43 PM (#4322263)
C'mon people, I can't be the only one willing to rise to this bait!!!


Hey, I answered this a while back (I think it was buried in another post though.

Yes, they are "out of control" in various ways - some of which I've highlighted - but gang raping black women and then forming a code of silence to protect the gang rapists because they are teammates is not one of them.


Agreed, but I wanted to rag on college sports for a post.
   2019. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 11, 2012 at 05:48 PM (#4322268)
Hey MN is 6th healthiest state, what could go wrong with being the #6 org in anything?
   2020. Lassus Posted: December 11, 2012 at 06:07 PM (#4322281)
1. Can people oppose same-sex marriage without being bigoted?

Despite what zonk said, no, not really.


2. Can people oppose illegal immigration without being bigoted?

Yes. (Despite this, I'm with Szym on open borders.)


3. Can people oppose wealth redistribution without being some combination of racist/cruel/greedy/selfish?

This is really really general, so generally I'd say yes. But it's too big a question the way you've put it, so any answer's kind of meaningless.
   2021. spike Posted: December 11, 2012 at 06:15 PM (#4322287)
"oppose wealth redistribution" = oppose any income tax at all or what?
   2022. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 06:20 PM (#4322292)
Former Chair of the Texas Republican Party, Cathie Adams, speaking to at a Grassroots America We The People "Call To Action" meeting shortly before the Election:


Who is a Marxist in our White House? Of course, it's Barack Hussein Obama. And I don't know why we're not calling him what he is as a Marxist. It's as if, when the wall fell that communism died; it didn't. Today, it is green on the outside and red on the inside. It is as red as ever and Barack Obama is implementing his green agenda, which is Marxism, and that is exactly why our economy is hurting as badly as it is and why twenty three million people are still out of work. That is exactly what is happening.

So for us to elect a US Senator or elect a President who thinks more of himself than he ought, who thinks so narcissisticly, as Barack Hussein Obama glared at Mitt Romney in that last debate, I was so offended I wanted to go up and just smack his face.

And folks we've got to be very careful about saying "well, that's not for me but you can do whatever you want." Folks, we have a rule of law, we have a Constitution and those things must be upheld. We cannot think that, well, if what their trying to do, for example, right now on a ballot in Colorado is legalize marijuana. And if we legalize it, will we empty out our jails and will we be safe for ever more? No. I'm telling you, Barack Hussein Obama has got to have a teleprompter because he fried his brain on drugs.


   2023. Steve Treder Posted: December 11, 2012 at 06:20 PM (#4322293)
The Duke lacrosse case.

Seriously?
   2024. spike Posted: December 11, 2012 at 06:24 PM (#4322296)
Cathie Adams = Overzealous Staffer
Duke LAX= indisputable proof of the lib plot to destroy White America
   2025. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 06:26 PM (#4322300)
I'm just going to leave this here with my mirthful recommendation to read the comments.

(Naturally I'd be perfectly happy to see the perpetrator beaten within an inch of his life, possibly within a centimeter)
   2026. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 06:28 PM (#4322302)
Since wealth can be and often is redistributed upward, or from minorities to whites, it is certainly possible to oppose it and not be racist.
   2027. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 06:29 PM (#4322305)
The Duke lacrosse case.

Seriously?


I know it's difficult for you to be confronted by the reality that challenges - or exemplifies - your worldview, but yes.
   2028. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: December 11, 2012 at 06:30 PM (#4322307)
   2029. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 06:34 PM (#4322310)
I know it's difficult for you to be confronted by the reality that challenges - or exemplifies - your worldview, but yes.


Should I just start totting up all the times that Ray says something that is vastly more applicable to himself than anybody he's arguing with? I'd probably break my keyboard within a couple of minutes, but it might be worth it in some kind of sociological sense.
   2030. Gotham Dave Posted: December 11, 2012 at 06:35 PM (#4322312)
I know it's difficult for you to be confronted by the reality that challenges - or exemplifies - your worldview, but yes.
I think it was more the "six ####### years ago" part. But you already knew that, didn't you?
   2031. Dan The Mediocre Posted: December 11, 2012 at 06:40 PM (#4322313)
The Duke lacrosse case.

Seriously?


I think so. I didn't find a single "trolololol" in the thread.
   2032. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 06:46 PM (#4322316)
I think it was more the "six ####### years ago" part. But you already knew that, didn't you?


What "six ####### years ago" part? He never stated that.

But I was unaware that an example of liberalgroupthink from 2006 is too far out of date to be relevant.
   2033. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 11, 2012 at 06:50 PM (#4322318)
But I was unaware that an example of liberalgroupthink from 2006 is too far out of date to be relevant.


Ray, I say this as your friend. You are making a pretty big fool of yourself today.
   2034. Lassus Posted: December 11, 2012 at 06:53 PM (#4322320)
I honestly don't think Ray's a troll.

Re: 2033, Ray wasn't even out of the blocks before SBB lapped him on that one.
   2035. Srul Itza Posted: December 11, 2012 at 06:58 PM (#4322324)
March 31: "The racially charged lacrosse team sexual assault scandal that is roiling Duke University has also exposed deep divisions between the elite private school and the more humble Tobacco Road community that surrounds it." USA Today.


So USA Today is now part of liberal group think?
   2036. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 07:01 PM (#4322328)
I honestly don't think Ray's a troll.


We'd have to check his schedule to be sure.
   2037. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: December 11, 2012 at 07:04 PM (#4322330)
Former Chair of the Texas Republican Party, Cathie Adams, speaking to at a Grassroots America We The People "Call To Action" meeting shortly before the Election:


I'm constantly shocked by people who think that Obama is a Marxist. People said that Bush was a Nazi, but that was metaphorical; no one thought that Bush was actually a member of the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei. I get the sense that there are a lot of people out there who think that Obama works straight from Trotsky's playbook, that he bases his economic decisions on passages from Das Kapital, and so forth. It's just so bizarre and clueless and divorced from any understanding of what Marxism is and of what Obama's actual policy decisions have been. I mean, yesterday the government sold its last shares in AIG. A Marxist would've seen the financial crisis as a wonderful opportunity for permanently nationalizing a big chunk of the banking, insurance, and auto industries. I guess the argument is that he's too clever for that and that his Marxism is of the stealthy, crypto, homeopathic variety. And that way lies madness! ####, Cathie Adams would probably collapse in panicky, screaming convulsions if she ever met a real Marxist.

EDIT: I guess that if you say that Obama's a socialist you'd be wrong, but at least you can point to some things that he has in common with socialists. Obama and Marxism is just either crazy talk or the desire to conflate democratic socialism with Stalinism in order to scare people away from the former.
   2038. Steve Treder Posted: December 11, 2012 at 07:13 PM (#4322335)
I guess that if you say that Obama's a socialist you'd be wrong, but at least you can point to some things that he has in common with socialists. Obama and Marxism is just either crazy talk or the desire to conflate democratic socialism with Stalinism in order to scare people away from the former.

I'd say Occam's Razor applies: people who say spectacularly stupid things most likely don't know WTF they're talking about. I very strongly suspect Cathie Adams doesn't know Marx from Stalin from Francois Mitterand from Pee Wee Herman.
   2039. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 11, 2012 at 07:14 PM (#4322337)
Obama and Marxism is just either crazy talk or the desire to conflate democratic socialism with Stalinism in order to scare people away from the former.


And amusingly it is having (seemingly) the opposite effect with socialism and I believe communism experiencing a surge in approval. Oops.

I know it's difficult for you to be confronted by the reality that challenges - or exemplifies - your worldview, but yes.


I am pretty sure it is not worldview but extreme fear at having to go over that complete train wreck again. To have an actual argument about it you're going to need someone to defend the people behind it (not going to happen) or extrapolate that one incident into an indictment of all liberals which is just plain silly since pretty much every liberal has long since disowned it.
   2040. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 11, 2012 at 07:14 PM (#4322338)
Re: 2033, Ray wasn't even out of the blocks before SBB lapped him on that one


I'm not addressing SBB's silliness today, nor Rants' wackadoodle conspiracy mongering. I am addressing Ray, who is my friend, and his tendency to make a fool of himself in public today.
   2041. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 11, 2012 at 07:18 PM (#4322342)
The Duke lacrosse case.

Seriously?


Yes. It's the distilled essence of modern liberalism, post hoc efforts to blame or otherwise spotlight the prosecutor notwithstanding.
   2042. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 07:22 PM (#4322348)
I am pretty sure it is not worldview but extreme fear at having to go over that complete train wreck again. To have an actual argument about it you're going to need someone to defend the people behind it (not going to happen) or extrapolate that one incident into an indictment of all liberals which is just plain silly since pretty much every liberal has long since disowned it.


Of course liberals are bothered by the subject, as the examples not only hit very close to home, but are in fact home.

Can you point to prominent liberals who went against the groupthink narrative at the time? I'm hard pressed to think of even one, though I'm sure there were some; I'll try to look tonight. But all too many of them didn't, for the obvious reason that they _do_ subscribe to the groupthink.
   2043. Steve Treder Posted: December 11, 2012 at 07:23 PM (#4322351)
It's the distilled essence of modern liberalism, post hoc efforts to blame or otherwise spotlight the prosecutor notwithstanding.

You don't say.
   2044. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 11, 2012 at 07:23 PM (#4322352)
Can you point to prominent liberals who went against the groupthink narrative at the time? I'm hard pressed to think of even one, though I'm sure there were some; I'll try to look tonight. But all too many of them didn't, for the obvious reason that they _do_ subscribe to the groupthink.


So, when you supported the war in Iraq, you were subscribing to groupthink, right?
   2045. Steve Treder Posted: December 11, 2012 at 07:25 PM (#4322354)
Of course liberals are bothered by the subject

I'm fascinated by your insights. Please explain more about liberals.
   2046. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 07:30 PM (#4322355)
Yes. It's the distilled essence of modern liberalism, post hoc efforts to blame or otherwise spotlight the prosecutor notwithstanding.


And it's worth noting that the prosecutor of course played them like a violin. He knew what to serve them, and they were lapping it up and going back for seconds and thirds.

Example.

Nifong early on accused the players of hiding behind a "stone wall of silence." (Sound familiar? Liberalites quickly parroted the comment.) Nifong said to CNN: "It just seems like a shame that [the players] are not willing to violate this seeming sacred sense of loyalty to team for loyalty to community." The only problem? Nifong was lying through his teeth. The co-captains had already voluntarily given statements to police and taken DNA tests, as well as offering to take polygraphs.

Liberals swallowed Nifong's "version" of events whole, not stopping to bother how utterly cartoonish it was to think that some players would not try to stop other players from gang raping a girl, or at a minimum would hold silent the "fact" that a gang rape had occurred, all because they played lacrosse together and the girl was black and they were "privileged" so they were entitled to her.

   2047. Gotham Dave Posted: December 11, 2012 at 07:30 PM (#4322356)
The essence of modern liberalism: something that has nothing at all to do with public policy or even politics, except that the way people reacted to it roughly broke along party lines. Thanks for clarifying, guys. I look forward to our Zimmerman-Martin discussions in 2018.
   2048. villageidiom Posted: December 11, 2012 at 07:34 PM (#4322361)
Can you point to prominent liberals who went against the groupthink narrative at the time? I'm hard pressed to think of even one, though I'm sure there were some; I'll try to look tonight. But all too many of them didn't, for the obvious reason that they _do_ subscribe to the groupthink.
We're really looking for people who went on the record against groupthink, right? Because when the anti-groupthink stance is "let's wait and see what the evidence is", most people are going to demonstrate by not saying a damn thing about the case. So we're looking for, among others, people who didn't comment on the case. That'll be a fun one to provide citations for.
   2049. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 11, 2012 at 07:37 PM (#4322362)
Liberals swallowed Nifong's "version" of events whole, not stopping to bother how utterly cartoonish it was to think that some players would not try to stop other players from gang raping a girl, or at a minimum would hold silent the "fact" that a gang rape had occurred, all because they played lacrosse together and the girl was black and they were "privileged" so they were entitled to her.

Of course. Successful white parents and families -- all of them -- teach their children to rape black strippers. I mean, if your family took you to Europe a time or two when you were a kid, the unavoidable lesson from all that privilege is that you are free to rape black strippers.

And the first thing the lacrosse coach taught them was, naturally, "Guys, if one of you rapes a black stripper, the rest of you have to stonewall the cops. That's policy around here. Got it?? GO BLUE DEVILS!!!"

Thus the code of silence.

Isn't that obvious?
   2050. Gotham Dave Posted: December 11, 2012 at 07:37 PM (#4322363)
2048 - What Ray wants is somebody on the NYT op ed page, who said "Oh, I'm so embarrassed by my fellow liberals, for their disgraceful jumping to conclusions", before literally self-immolating out of shame. Anything less just proves his point further.
   2051. Morty Causa Posted: December 11, 2012 at 07:39 PM (#4322367)


2048:

Well, this is easy. All you have to find is all those people who were saing "let's eait and see what the evidence is". Right?
   2052. Gotham Dave Posted: December 11, 2012 at 07:41 PM (#4322368)
For ####'s sake, everyone (by which I mean Ray and SSB). Get the #### over it. Yes, liberals ###### up. Liberals are imperfect and have biases that occasionally negatively influence the way we perceive things. This is because we still wet the bed and our mothers breastfed us until we were 12. We all hate white people and love black people. Can we please ####### talk about something else?

And yes, Ray, this post proves that you were right all along about all liberals and every position they've ever taken. Congratulations.
   2053. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 07:48 PM (#4322378)
My bigotry in the Duke lacrosse case had nothing to do with race and everything to do with the fact that I spent most of the first 18 years of my life in the vicinity of Duke's campus and desperately want to crucify most of those #######. I will happily crucify Dookies of every race, creed, and religion. Show me a transgendered Indonesian Muslim in a Duke sweatshirt and I'll show you someone I want to nail to a ####### tree.


I went to Duke.
   2054. BDC Posted: December 11, 2012 at 07:50 PM (#4322381)
The Duke Lacrosse case was one where the media, abetted by an unscrupulous prosecutor, reported that people were guilty. This in fact happens all the time to innocent people, with consequences that are sometimes a lot more serious if the innocent people are poor minorities: the left can see the right a Duke Lacrosse and raise them a Central Park Five. It seems to me the only basic conclusion to draw is that you shouldn't believe the media when it tells you that people are guilty. In fact, thinking of the Central Park Five, you should also reserve judgment when a court tells you they're guilty.
   2055. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 07:55 PM (#4322385)
And to forestall the inevitable "So Nifong's goal was to set out to expose liberals?" No. His goal, as best as can reasonably be inferred, was to get re-elected. And when the Duke case fell into his lap, he quickly saw that as a vehicle to be the local hero. I believe that he was, before this case, fundamentally a good person who honestly believed he "knew" what had happened in this case -- and then simply got too far out in front of the facts. (There is no evidence, to my knowledge, of improper behavior from him before this case.)

And then once the facts began to go against him, he made the break from good person to evil. (*) What he knew was that the media would buy what he was selling, which was a narrative of class/privilege/race/power. He knew this because it is the liberal narrative. And so he knew that by going down this road he would have plenty of soldiers, undrafted by him but invested in the cause and willing to do his bidding, and he knew he would be painted as David, battling for good, against the white man's Goliath. He was right about this because it happened.

Had he known at the outset that what ultimately happened was likely to be the end result, he would surely have put on the brakes (although that would have required him to be rational), but as it was he took several steps out on the limb before he realized that he was out there and that it was too late to turn back.

(*) And make no mistake about it: what he tried to do to these students, in railroading people that he quickly learned were probably innocent - and then definitely learned that they were - was pure, sheer, horrific evil. To put these men and their families through that, to attempt to ruin lives, was truly beneath contempt.
   2056. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 11, 2012 at 07:57 PM (#4322387)
I went to Duke.


And thus we know that Vlad rapes black strippers. QED.
   2057. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 11, 2012 at 07:57 PM (#4322388)
I know it's difficult for you to be confronted by the reality that challenges - or exemplifies - your worldview, but yes.
Never saw him confront reality.
   2058. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 11, 2012 at 07:58 PM (#4322389)
The Duke Lacrosse case was one where the media, abetted by an unscrupulous prosecutor, reported that people were guilty. This in fact happens all the time to innocent people, with consequences that are sometimes a lot more serious if the innocent people are poor minorities: the left can see the right a Duke Lacrosse and raise them a Central Park Five. It seems to me the only basic conclusion to draw is that you shouldn't believe the media when it tells you that people are guilty. In fact, thinking of the Central Park Five, you should also reserve judgment when a court tells you they're guilty.

That wasn't close to all that happened, but at the very least liberals cast it as an episode that "raised issues" of "race," "class," and "privilege" when it didn't.(*) And they did that because they view the world through that prism.

They also treated people differently entirely because of their race. The demands they made on the whites would never have been made of non-whites, just as Sharptonesque news outlets, in the days before the internet, published the central park rape victim's name because she was white.

(*) Other than, perhaps, within the echo chamber.
   2059. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 11, 2012 at 07:58 PM (#4322390)
He knew this because it is the liberal narrative


It's sad that liberals raped puppies like this. It's the worst most terrible thing ever. Except for a second Obama term, naturally.
   2060. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 11, 2012 at 07:58 PM (#4322391)
Have Ray and SBB hi-fived yet?
   2061. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 11, 2012 at 07:59 PM (#4322392)
The demands they made on the whites would never have been made of non-whites


It is *hard* out there for a pimp.
   2062. Gotham Dave Posted: December 11, 2012 at 08:00 PM (#4322393)
And to forestall the inevitable "So Nifong's goal was to set out to expose liberals?" No. His goal, as best as can reasonably be inferred, was to get re-elected.
Uhh… it seems really unlikely to me that somebody was going to claim that, let alone "inevitable". How does your brain work, exactly?
   2063. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 11, 2012 at 08:01 PM (#4322394)
It is *hard* out there for a pimp.

Who the #### you think you is ... ############' Ron O'Neal or something?
   2064. McCoy Posted: December 11, 2012 at 08:05 PM (#4322401)
Saw Cabin in the Woods for the first time yesterday and what a great flick. I'm absolutely shocked that it basically came and went with barely a peep coming from the box office. Yet crap movie after crap movie draws over a hundred million in two weeks or so.
   2065. Gotham Dave Posted: December 11, 2012 at 08:07 PM (#4322404)
Cabin in the Woods is great. Saw it during its theatrical run and had no idea what it was about going in (except that it was horror-related and written by Joss Whedon). Boy, was I pleasantly surprised. Funny, gory and some goofy pop philosophy thrown in on top. Great stuff.
   2066. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 11, 2012 at 08:15 PM (#4322412)
Yet crap movie after crap movie draws over a hundred million in two weeks or so.


Jim Rice is in the Baseball HOF. Genesis, Heart and Rush are in the Rock & Roll alternative. The most popular shows on television are Big Bang Theory, How I Met Your Mother, Mike and Molly, and sixteen different versions of CSI and Law & Order.

People are _stupid_ McCoy.
   2067. BDC Posted: December 11, 2012 at 08:15 PM (#4322413)
The demands they made on the whites would never have been made of non-whites

Well, in the CP5 case, they demanded that the non-whites, precisely as guilty as the Duke Lacrosse whites, go to prison. So you're right about discrepancies.

   2068. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 11, 2012 at 08:21 PM (#4322418)
Well, in the CP5 case, they demanded that the non-whites, precisely as guilty as the Duke Lacrosse whites, go to prison.

Who's they? In the Duke LAX case, it's the media and campus left and Duke administration, at least, who demanded that the players waive all rights and talk to the cops -- all because they were white and the "victim" was black.

Who made "demands" in the CP5 case and upon whom were they made?

EDIT: And of course the fundamental difference in the cases was that in the CP5 case there actually was a rape and deadly assault committed, thus you'd expect some sort of public dismay.

   2069. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 11, 2012 at 08:29 PM (#4322427)
EDIT: And of course the fundamental difference in the cases was that in the CP5 case there actually was a rape and deadly assault committed, thus you'd expect some sort of public dismay.


The fundamental difference between CP5 and Duke LAX was that the families of the CP5 didn't have the social power to prevent their children from being railroaded for a crime they didn't commit. But hey, don't let facts like that get in the way of your #####-hurt whining about how hard it is for whitey, man.
   2070. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: December 11, 2012 at 08:35 PM (#4322434)
Why is there all this discussion about the Duke Rape case? What about the West Memphis 3? If we are going to argue about an over agressive prosecutor making a case strictly by stereotyping a group of kids.....
   2071. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 11, 2012 at 08:37 PM (#4322437)
If we are going to argue about an over agressive prosecutor making a case strictly by stereotyping a group of kids.....


Doesn't fit the preferred "poor white men have it terrible" panty-wetting.
   2072. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 11, 2012 at 08:40 PM (#4322440)
The fundamental difference between CP5 and Duke LAX was that the families of the CP5 didn't have the social power to prevent their children from being railroaded for a crime they didn't commit. But hey, don't let facts like that get in the way of your #####-hurt whining about how hard it is for whitey, man.

No, the fundamental difference is that a crime was actually committed in CP5, unlike Duke LAX. And the defendants confessed in CP5. Other crimes to which they confessed were also thrown out. I'm comfortable with the appellate decisions, though not delusional about the likelihood that they could have been accomplices.

The city's fighting their shakedown suit and has subpoenaed the CP5 documentary production company. Go, New York, go New York, GO!!
   2073. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 11, 2012 at 08:45 PM (#4322444)
Doesn't fit the preferred "poor white men have it terrible" panty-wetting.

Why, seeing as they're white? They're not poor?
   2074. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 11, 2012 at 08:47 PM (#4322445)
No, the fundamental difference is that a crime was actually committed in CP5, unlike Duke LAX. And the defendants confessed in CP5.


I'm pretty clear on your position. It's hard, white man. So terribly hard for you. Struggle on. One day you'll be free.
   2075. robinred Posted: December 11, 2012 at 08:50 PM (#4322447)
@ spankz in 2028

I still regularly listen to Rush and am aware that it is further evidence of my uncoolness.
   2076. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 11, 2012 at 08:51 PM (#4322449)
I'm pretty clear on your position. It's hard, white man. So terribly hard for you.

Actually, not really, since I've never been railroaded by a mob for a crime I didn't commit. I have, however, been blessed with the ability to empathize with people that happens to, even when they're white. So I'm doing okay.
   2077. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: December 11, 2012 at 08:54 PM (#4322453)
robinred Posted: December 11, 2012 at 08:50 PM (#4322447)
@ spankz in 2028

I still regularly listen to Rush and am aware that it is further evidence of my uncoolness.


I still have "Snakes and Arrows" in my car and play it on occasion. The documentary that came out last year about them was pretty good as well.
   2078. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 11, 2012 at 08:55 PM (#4322454)
Ray, I say this as your friend. You are making a pretty big fool of yourself today.

LOL. New day, same Sam: Lose argument; claim other person is a fool.

Also ... Woo-hoo!
   2079. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: December 11, 2012 at 09:15 PM (#4322463)
Rush is way, way overdue for the HOF. They have been together, the same three, for almost 40 years, and while never truly great for any time, have been good to very, very good for a long time. They are the R&R (non-scumbag version) of Pete Rose.
   2080. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 09:28 PM (#4322465)
They have never been good.
   2081. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 11, 2012 at 09:48 PM (#4322470)
Rush are the Don Sutton of rock and roll.
   2082. Gotham Dave Posted: December 11, 2012 at 09:52 PM (#4322471)
Jim Rice is in the Baseball HOF. Genesis, Heart and Rush are in the Rock & Roll alternative. The most popular shows on television are Big Bang Theory, How I Met Your Mother, Mike and Molly, and sixteen different versions of CSI and Law & Order.

People are _stupid_ McCoy.
This is actually totally valid in this case; I watched CitW (the second time) with somebody who's not at all intellectually gifted (love her to death anyway - multiple intelligences and all that), and she was super confused the whole time.
   2083. BDC Posted: December 11, 2012 at 10:04 PM (#4322477)
Who made "demands" in the CP5 case and upon whom were they made?

The cops lied to the suspects and demanded they confess to a crime they had no involvement with whatsoever. Those confessions sent them to prison for a long time.

You cannot win this comparison, and it's really not seemly to try. The Duke case was a travesty of justice. The innocent defendants had they lives majorly interrupted, and the media convicted them in the absence of evidence. But they did not go to prison; the system, after ####ing with them mightily, reversed course and exonerated them. This is so not an example of white folks getting the short end of this particular American stick.
   2084. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 10:30 PM (#4322503)
For ####'s sake, everyone (by which I mean Ray and SSB). Get the #### over it. Yes, liberals ###### up.


But they didn't #### up. That's the point. This is their worldview. Which is ###### up, yes, but, sadly, it means this wasn't a #### up.
   2085. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 11, 2012 at 10:44 PM (#4322521)
The cops lied to the suspects and demanded they confess to a crime they had no involvement with whatsoever. Those confessions sent them to prison for a long time.

OK, but that's not the outside world, i.e., media and political factions not involved in the case. That was the travesty in the Duke LAX case (and the topic of conversation here) -- the voices who had no idea what the evidence was inserting their racially-tinged ideology into the justice system ... and making demands.

The Duke LAX case was a travesty of justice, but it was more than that, and it's the "more" that we're really talking about.
   2086. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 10:45 PM (#4322523)

I haven't read the first 1900 or so post in this thread, but Ray and SBB, do you really want to get into an argument about how liberals and conservatives respond to rape and how that represents their world view? That line of argument hasn't exactly been a winner for conservatives lately.

Sure, the Duke lacrosse case was a black eye for many in the media, which says nothing about the liberal world view. Plenty of liberals didn't jump on the bandwagon at the time, including me.
   2087. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 10:50 PM (#4322527)
The essence of modern liberalism: something that has nothing at all to do with public policy or even politics, except that the way people reacted to it roughly broke along party lines. Thanks for clarifying, guys.


? Race/class/privilege has much to do with public policy and even politics.

And despite people here saying "A liberal narrative? Who? What? Where?", the Gang of 88 -- the professors at Duke who did not cover themselves in glory -- where liberals. Academia is not exactly overrun by conservatives. And the media was more liberal than not and engaged in liberal bias. And the liberal columnists who were pimping the narrative were... liberals.
   2088. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 11, 2012 at 10:57 PM (#4322538)
So here we are back at Liberal Media Bias (Duke version) where because a prosecutor and then the media acted in a certain way this reflects on all of liberal mind.

I'll ask again is there any evidence to back up this assertion? Seriously saying "Duke" and "Liberal Media" does not count as evidence.
   2089. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 11:04 PM (#4322544)
No, the fundamental difference is that a crime was actually committed in CP5, unlike Duke LAX.


Filing a false police report is a criminal offense.
   2090. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 11:13 PM (#4322549)
So here we are back at Liberal Media Bias (Duke version) where because a prosecutor and then the media acted in a certain way this reflects on all of liberal mind.

I'll ask again is there any evidence to back up this assertion? Seriously saying "Duke" and "Liberal Media" does not count as evidence.


Which assertion? That this represents the worldview of liberals, or that it is an example of media bias?

As to the former, the quotes I provided in post 2003 are certainly evidence of what the worldview of liberals is. And there's more where those quotes came from; it's not like such quotes from the Duke case are in short supply. And it's not like it's a mystery what the worldview of liberals is, so this particular side bar is kind of odd. They constantly talk about race/class/power/privilege, so it's kind of bizarre of them to be doing the "Who, us?" routine now.

As to media bias, it certainly was an example of this. The NY Times reporting of Selena Roberts and Duff Wilson, among others, was simply not an objective accounting of the facts and what could reasonably be inferred from them. And I'm speaking here about hard news reporting coming from the Times, not what came out of their editorial page.
   2091. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 11:16 PM (#4322550)
Academia is not exactly overrun by conservatives.


The majority of self-declared conservatives are Creationists, so that shouldn't come as much of a surprise.
   2092. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 11, 2012 at 11:28 PM (#4322557)
As to the former, the quotes I provided in post 2003 are certainly evidence of what the worldview of liberals is. And there's more where those quotes came from; it's not like such quotes from the Duke case are in short supply. And it's not like it's a mystery what the worldview of liberals is, so this particular side bar is kind of odd.


So some random media quotes define the world view of liberals? I assume you have no problems if I decide to pick something semi-randomly collect quotes and decide that describes the worldview of Libertarians, right?

It is not a mystery what the liberal world view is, but when you talk about it you are almost always wrong - I suspect because you are not interested in understanding what exactly the liberal world view is.

They constantly talk about race/class/power/privilege, so it's kind of bizarre of them to be doing the "Who, us?" routine now.


An example of you being wrong. In this sub-thread for example race has been brought up insistently by the not liberals.
   2093. Lassus Posted: December 11, 2012 at 11:30 PM (#4322561)
Also ... Woo-hoo!

Woo-hoo!
   2094. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 11:35 PM (#4322569)
KGW.com reported that the shooter was wearing a hockey mask,


But he went with the gun over the razor-edged boomerang? Huh.
   2095. Gotham Dave Posted: December 11, 2012 at 11:48 PM (#4322577)
Remember folks, the Duke lacrosse case = airtight evidence that white/male privilege does not exist. Thanks for explaining that to us, Ray.
   2096. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 12, 2012 at 01:06 AM (#4322633)
So some random media quotes define the world view of liberals?
Yes. However, that same trick doesn't work with conservatives, so don't go around quoting life-long members of conservative organizations as representing anything about anyone.
   2097. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 12, 2012 at 01:12 AM (#4322638)
The worldview of liberals, as expressed every day over and over again in these threads, is a narrative of race/class/power/privilege. And - cue Andy from earlier today - "racial sensitivity."

Why the liberals here are denying this is left as an exercise for the reader.
   2098. Tripon Posted: December 12, 2012 at 01:19 AM (#4322641)
The worldview of liberals, as expressed every day over and over again in these threads, is a narrative of race/class/power/privilege. And - cue Andy from earlier today - "racial sensitivity."

Why the liberals here are denying this is left as an exercise for the reader.


That's nice. Can you tell me what the liberal view is on cheeses are for the next topic. Seeing you are an certified liberal expert who has studied them in their natural habitat. Tell me, are you currently considering a speaking tour, because I would really like to hear you in person on this subject.
   2099. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: December 12, 2012 at 01:24 AM (#4322646)
Have Ray and SBB hi-fived yet?

I've been out for the evening, but what I'd like to know is if SBB has ever elaborated on his rather weird proclamation earlier today, to wit:

I have never benefitted from white privilege and would not have benefitted from it in its heyday. (A heyday you can read about, in grand detail, in the Joe Kennedy biography that just came out.)


Yeah, this oughta be good.
   2100. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: December 12, 2012 at 01:26 AM (#4322649)
The worldview of liberals, as expressed every day over and over again in these threads, is a narrative of race/class/power/privilege. And - cue Andy from earlier today - "racial sensitivity."

Don't ever change, Ray. I don't ever want to be put in the position of wondering if BTF has been overrun by a bespectacled pod person. It would totally blow my mind.
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