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Sunday, December 02, 2012

OTP December 2012 - Pushing G.O.P. to Negotiate, Obama Ends Giving In

Mr. Obama, scarred by failed negotiations in his first term and emboldened by a clear if close election to a second, has emerged as a different kind of negotiator in the past week or two, sticking to the liberal line and frustrating Republicans on the other side of the bargaining table.

Bitter Mouse Posted: December 02, 2012 at 11:15 PM | 6172 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   2701. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 14, 2012 at 01:59 PM (#4324820)
I'm much smarter and almost certainly much wealthier than you are, so that's cool with me.

What an absurd thing to write.

The problem that you have is that you have the causation backwards. IQ doesn't test an absolute: it tests an ability to do well on a test. Which is the kind of thing that is taught much better in private schools (or even just good public ones) than in poor, public ones. People are not poor because they're dumb. They appear dumb because they're poor.

You're in denial.

How do people "appear" dumb?
   2702. Lassus Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:00 PM (#4324822)
As I said, white straight males are the class most discriminated against in America in the year 2012.The left has no sympathy for them. They're not part of any pet class.

The way you use the word "discrimination" is hilarious. Just say loudly and repeatedly white males are basically being raped and killed by Nazis and get it over with.
   2703. hokieneer Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:03 PM (#4324823)
Good for you, but that doesn't mean that most people can. My father's family was and remains in poverty for the most part, and has been for generations. They aren't stupid people at all. But only a few of my father's generation managed to make into a materially better situation. This is not because their IQs are low, or whatever; I'd be willing to bet that they all have higher IQs than, for instance, The Good Face (not that that's terribly difficult to achieve). It's because getting out of poverty in a small town in rural Nebraska is difficult, even for smart people.


#### yea it is. I grew up in one of the poorest counties in the one of the poorest states (WV). There was literally NOTHING there. No industry outside of a coal mine. Some gas stations, grocery stores, a pharmacy, 2-3 local owned restaurants... and that's about it.

From my observations of my poor small town: I would assume around almost every person at the age of 15-16 has a better chance to "escape poverty" than their parents did. Sadly a portion of them do not for a variety of reasons, the most prevailing is probably poor choices with regards to drugs, teenage pregnancy, theft and other underage criminal activity, etc. Another portion of people decide, either because of lack of ability or due to necessity, decide to enter the work force at 18 in the mines, or leave the immediate area to work in road construction, building construction, or other similar positions. If I had to put a number on it, I would assume that upwards of 40-50% of my graduating class have increased their income and wealth beyond the poverty level (not that all of them were in poverty to begin with, so it's really tough to make accurate assumptions), with about 25%-30% of the class getting college degrees and entering the "high-skill" workforce.

It's not easy, but it's certainly possible. I have no idea what one would want for acceptable percentage of upwards economic movement out of poverty, but from my experience it does seem to be that the vast majority of people who are capable, and don't make bad decisions, have a great opportunity to at least reach middle class. Now when we want to talk about moving beyond that to the upper brackets, there are a host of barriers there.
   2704. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:04 PM (#4324827)
post 2698

i personally relish in being demonized and reviled


:-)

It does say something about the modern left that they demonize and revile straight white males.
   2705. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:09 PM (#4324833)
IQ doesn't test an absolute: it tests an ability to do well on a test. Which is the kind of thing that is taught much better in private schools (or even just good public ones) than in poor, public ones.

Except for the fact that I went to midrange if not lowrange public schools that didn't teach that "kind of thing" well at all, yet when I got to college and pro school and all the tests involved, I smoked the vast majority of the kids from private schools and better public schools.

Why? Because I was smarter than the vast majority of them.

Your thesis is senseless and belied by essentially all real-world evidence.
   2706. Misirlou has S.C.M.O.D.S Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:09 PM (#4324834)
It does say something about the modern left that they demonize and revile straight white males.


Oh good grief! Not giving preferences or special protection to a class of people who are far more successful than any other is not demonizing and reviling them.
   2707. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:11 PM (#4324836)
How do people "appear" dumb?

Well, it's hard to appear much dumber than this:

As I said, white straight males are the class most discriminated against in America in the year 2012.


but I have faith that he'll be able to top himself at least once or twice a day, and find himself plenty of Nodding In Agreement types to echo him.
   2708. The Good Face Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:14 PM (#4324840)
The problem that you have is that you have the causation backwards. IQ doesn't test an absolute: it tests an ability to do well on a test. Which is the kind of thing that is taught much better in private schools (or even just good public ones) than in poor, public ones. People are not poor because they're dumb. They appear dumb because they're poor.


IQ cannot be "taught". It might be possible to "prep" for an IQ test, but nobody does such a thing because there's no point in doing so. The simple reality is that children in private schools, or the best public schools, are more likely to be the children of the rich or upper middle class than the desperately poor. And since IQ has a significant genetic component, on average the children of rich or upper middle class people have higher IQs than the children of poor people. No need for conspiracy theories.

Look, I get that this makes you very uncomfortable, but your feelings don't have any bearing on reality. You'll get much better results if you understand a thing before you try to change it.
   2709. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:15 PM (#4324845)
Oh good grief! Not giving preferences or special protection to a class of people who are far more successful than any other is not demonizing and reviling them.


It is, but don't worry: I won't force you to give your money to me.
   2710. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:16 PM (#4324846)
when I got to college and pro school and all the tests involved, I smoked the vast majority of the kids from private schools and better public schools.

Why? Because I was smarter than the vast majority of them.


Like nearly everyone else here, I must be smart as hell, because I can sit around and scribble opinions on the internet all day and never have to worry where my next dollar is coming from. The Mensa Society doesn't have a damn thing on BTF.
   2711. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:22 PM (#4324854)
Like nearly everyone else here, I must be smart as hell, because I can sit around and scribble opinions on the internet all day and never have to worry where my next dollar is coming from. The Mensa Society doesn't have a damn thing on BTF.

I'll plead irresistable impulse in writing what I wrote -- it was responding to a personal attack nestled in a package of aggressive stupid, leaving little choice.

Like TGF said, who the hell "prepares" for a GD IQ test? (For that matter, who even takes them? I never have.)
   2712. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:25 PM (#4324857)
Like TGF said, who the hell "prepares" for a GD IQ test?


No idea. I've never taken one, unless you count the mock test I took a few months ago online.
   2713. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:26 PM (#4324860)
Hey look another school shooting.....
The same thing would have happened if those kids just had knives.
   2714. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:28 PM (#4324862)
I took an IQ test when I was in the 4th grade. You scored either "80+" or "Below 80". I scored as 80+, something I'm still very proud of.

The same thing would have happened if those kids just had knives.


It would've been worse if they all had sword canes and wore monocles.
   2715. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:30 PM (#4324863)
Yeah well according to the NRA, I will need to have my 7 year old son equipped with a AK-47 so he defend himself from future attacks.
   2716. Manny Coon Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:31 PM (#4324864)
The same thing would have happened if those kids just had knives.


Someone actually stabbed a bunch of children at a school in China earlier today as well.
   2717. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:36 PM (#4324870)
As I said, white straight males are the class most discriminated against in America in the year 2012. The left has no sympathy for them. They're not part of any pet class. And so they're on the short end of all the social policies.
Yes, particularly visible through Obama, leader of Da Left, who regularly denigrates white folks and hard work in his speeches where he validates sucking on a forty while fondling crack whores.

Oh, wait, he doesn't. Where on earth would you be without your straw man and his gaping anus? Resorting to outliers like the Duke lacrosse case, no doubt, in that liberal bastion, South Carolina.

I know your intellectual cupidity knows no bounds, but the next time you swoon at the thought of lefties stealing your wallet, as you lie there consider that your general rhetorical approach is the equivalent of pointing to 9/11 truthers and shouting, "See! The right in this country is blahblahblah!"

I can't help noticing how easy it is for people posting here to point to legitimate surveys demonstrating how cracked our right wing is, while there's nothing comparable for you to point to.

Funny how that works, eh?

   2718. Poulanc Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:37 PM (#4324871)
Why? Because I was smarter than the vast majority of them.



Or you are really good at taking tests.
   2719. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:38 PM (#4324873)
Hey look another school shooting.....

The same thing would have happened if those kids just had knives.


A knife-wielding man injured 22 children and one adult outside a primary school in central China as students were arriving for classes Friday, police said, the latest in a series of periodic rampage attacks at Chinese schools and kindergartens.

No motive was given for the stabbings, which echo a string of similar assaults against schoolchildren in 2010 that killed nearly 20 and wounded more than 50. The most recent such attack took place in August, when a knife-wielding man broke into a middle school in the southern city of Nanchang and stabbed two students before fleeing.
   2720. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:38 PM (#4324874)
An adult shooting up a class of kindergarteners is yet another sign of significant social regression. This kind of #### didn't happen 30 years ago (*), even when we were in the grip of a bad recession.

(*) And the number of teenagers that did 30 years ago was way lower than the late 90s and 21st c.
   2721. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:39 PM (#4324875)
Why? Because I was smarter than the vast majority of them.

Of you are really good at taking tests.


Which means he was smarter.

See how this works?
   2722. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:42 PM (#4324879)
A knife-wielding man injured 22 children and one adult outside a primary school in central China as students were arriving for classes Friday, police said, the latest in a series of periodic rampage attacks at Chinese schools and kindergartens.


You'll notice an important point about that knife attack compared to the gun attack today, right?
   2723. Poulanc Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:42 PM (#4324880)

Which means he was smarter.

See how this works?



Just because you are better at taking a test doesn't NOT make you smarter. It's sad you believe it does.
   2724. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:44 PM (#4324882)
Just because you are better at taking a test doesn't NOT make you smarter.

Indeed. I mean, who's smarter: the Harvard Law summa graduate, or the D student from Bumblef*ck in the Backwoods High?
   2725. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:46 PM (#4324886)
You'll notice an important point about that knife attack compared to the gun attack today, right?


Yes, and I don't claim that mass killing is as effective with a knife as with a gun, but you also snipped the second part of my post because it didn't help your argument:

No motive was given for the stabbings, which echo a string of similar assaults against schoolchildren in 2010 that killed nearly 20 and wounded more than 50.
   2726. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4324887)
You do it through expanding the money supply, like Bernanke is doing


Haha. Your blind allegiance to a broken ideology is really funny. I've already posted the list of 20+ wildly incorrect interpretations, assumptions and predictions Bernanke has made during his time at the helm of the Fed at least twice on this site, but I don't think seeing it a third time would have any better chance at getting through.

   2727. zonk Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:48 PM (#4324889)
As I said, white straight males are the class most discriminated against in America in the year 2012.The left has no sympathy for them. They're not part of any pet class.


I know! I hate how we're so put upon...

I have a good mind to write an angry letter to the (straight while male) editor of my local paper, march to the home of my (straight white male) mayor, complain to the (straight while male) President of where I bank, ask the (straight white male) chief of my local PD, demand that the (straight white male) anchor of the highest rated local newscast do a story on this, find out if my (straight white male) landlord is a part of this conspiracy, look into whether my (straight white male) boss is holding my straightness, whiteness, or maleness against me... or what... problem is -- every damn time I pick up the phone to try to get one of these people on the phone, I inevitably end up talking to some chick or foreigner with an accent.
   2728. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:49 PM (#4324890)
No motive was given for the stabbings, which echo a string of similar assaults against schoolchildren in 2010 that killed nearly 20 and wounded more than 50



Does AP or whomever reported this story have something against numbers that don't end in zero?
   2729. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:49 PM (#4324891)
27 now reported dead in that Connecticut massacre, including 18 elementary school students. One of the shooters may have been the father of one a student at the same school. The main shooter had 4 guns, one of which is a .223 caliber rifle.

No deer, raccoons, or rapists were known to be among the victims.
   2730. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:49 PM (#4324892)
Indeed. I mean, who's smarter: the Harvard Law summa graduate, or the D student from Bumblef*ck in the Backwoods High?


Who can tell? Everything is just so random. These issues are so confusing. What do you mean by smarter? WHAT DO YOU MEAN. Nobody has any idea what intelligence is.
   2731. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:52 PM (#4324896)
I will say that North America does not necessarily need manufacturing jobs, in the assembly line sense, to restore the middle class (which has pretty much already been lost). It does need something that produces value through labour though, which is pretty hard to do without manufacuring. No sustainable economy has ever been, or ever will be built, on creating intellectual property. You need to have value-added exports, or at least exports that nobody else has access to, to sustain a national economy. Unless of course you shut it off from the outside world and don't allow much in the way of imports.
   2732. Tripon Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:53 PM (#4324897)
Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal, a Republican and a potential 2016 presidential candidate, has a solution for the GOP's birth control problem: Make it over the counter.
"The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists announced its support last month for selling oral contraceptives over the counter without a prescription in the United States," Jindal writes in Friday's Wall Street Journal opinion section. "I agree with this opinion, which if embraced by the federal government would take contraception out of the political arena." Jindal also writes that prescription birth control drives up costs with unnecessary doctors' visits.


   2733. Manny Coon Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:54 PM (#4324898)

You'll notice an important point about that knife attack compared to the gun attack today, right?


Our rampages against young children are better than your rampages against school children!

Rampages against school children of any kind are completely unacceptable and definitely not something to be joked about as was the tone of the original post. There have actually been a lot of attacks at schools in China using bladed weapons over the past few years and in many cases the children did die.
   2734. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:54 PM (#4324899)
Gun controls are on the way, mark my words.
   2735. Poulanc Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:54 PM (#4324900)
Indeed. I mean, who's smarter: the Harvard Law summa graduate, or the D student from Bumblef*ck in the Backwoods High?



Depends - which one has the higher IQ? Because that's all you guys base it on, right?
   2736. Manny Coon Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:58 PM (#4324905)
The main shooter had 4 guns, one of which is a .223 caliber rifle.


So another case of the guns being used being common civilian weapons, that are legal all around the world, that no gun control short of banning all guns in the country would not prevent?
   2737. Dale Sams Posted: December 14, 2012 at 02:58 PM (#4324907)
Gun controls are on the way, mark my words.


Gun controls cannot stop the kind of mentally ill civilian who shoots children in the head.

I also will be turning FB off for a while because the level of outrage is directly opposite of the level of silence I see when i post pics of children that American soldiers have executed (2006 incident), the 16 year American Obama executed, or the children who attend funerals and are droned to death.
   2738. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:01 PM (#4324910)
White House spokesman Jay Carney said while today is not the day to debate gun policy, an assault weapons ban "does remain a commitment" of President Obama.


   2739. Greg K Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:01 PM (#4324911)
IQ cannot be "taught". It might be possible to "prep" for an IQ test, but nobody does such a thing because there's no point in doing so. The simple reality is that children in private schools, or the best public schools, are more likely to be the children of the rich or upper middle class than the desperately poor. And since IQ has a significant genetic component, on average the children of rich or upper middle class people have higher IQs than the children of poor people. No need for conspiracy theories.

It's not directly studying for IQ tests, but presumably doesn't education help make you more intelligent (otherwise what's the point?) I think I'd agree with most of the statement except that I'd guess the education component is stronger than the genetic component.
   2740. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:05 PM (#4324915)
Gun controls cannot stop the kind of mentally ill civilian who shoots children in the head.

I also will be turning FB off for a while because the level of outrage is directly opposite of the level of silence I see when i post pics of children that American soldiers have executed (2006 incident), the 16 year American Obama executed, or the children who attend funerals and are droned to death.


I'm with you 100%. I don't think a weapons ban will help one bit. But 18 dead kids is enough to get it passed.

Did you hear about the guy who just did a project in which he put out a Tweet for every drone strike by the US. He went into figuring he could do it in a few minutes, but after 12 hours he was only up to 2010, and they've been put into overdrive by (Nobel Peace Prize winner) Barack Obama.


Have a good weekend folks. If you pray, pray for the families of those kids.
   2741. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:06 PM (#4324917)
Yes, and I don't claim that mass killing is as effective with a knife as with a gun, but you also snipped the second part of my post because it didn't help your argument:

No motive was given for the stabbings, which echo a string of similar assaults against schoolchildren in 2010 that killed nearly 20 and wounded more than 50.


Didn't keep it because it's talking about multiple different attacks, so of course the dead/wounded count would be higher than a single attack.

I will point out that the multiple knife attacks from 2010 still didn't equal the same death toll as the single gun attack from today.

If you want to start aggregating death tolls from knife attacks vs death tolls from gun attacks, well, that's not going to help your position very much, is it?
   2742. Manny Coon Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:10 PM (#4324919)
Both China and the USA seem to have a lot of these rampage style attacks. I've read that in China many people think that it is a least partially related to poor mental health care in the country.

The USA doesn't exactly have a great reputation in treating the mentally either, I wonder how well our country does at diagnosing and treating mental health compared to other gun owning nations where these styles of attacks are less common, my guess is not well.
   2743. Gaelan Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:10 PM (#4324920)
This is precisely the time to talk about gun control. If this isn't the right time then there is no right time.

I'll put it bluntly. If you are opposed to gun control you have no place in civil society. None.

The NRA has it exactly backwards. Guns kill people. That's why they exist. People are their instruments.
   2744. Tripon Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:11 PM (#4324921)
If there's a knee jerk reaction here, its not banning guns. Its locking up people who should be considered a danger to themselves and others.
   2745. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:12 PM (#4324922)
Gun controls cannot stop the kind of mentally ill civilian who shoots children in the head.

I also will be turning FB off for a while because the level of outrage is directly opposite of the level of silence I see when i post pics of children that American soldiers have executed (2006 incident), the 16 year American Obama executed, or the children who attend funerals and are droned to death.


There have been some improvements, but at its core, the country is far worse off today than it was 30 years ago. We're in decline.

   2746. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:12 PM (#4324923)
Didn't keep it because it's talking about multiple different attacks, so of course the dead/wounded count would be higher than a single attack.

I will point out that the multiple knife attacks from 2010 still didn't equal the same death toll as the single gun attack from today.


And the situation from today is one of the most extreme data points ever, so I don't see how it can fairly be used as representative.

I forget what the Columbine numbers were, but I don't think they approached 27 deaths. Few school massacres have. I can think of VA Tech (32 IIRC) and a couple of others.
   2747. Poulanc Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:16 PM (#4324927)
I forget what the Columbine numbers were, but I don't think they approached 27 deaths. Few school massacres have. I can think of VA Tech (32 IIRC) and a couple of others



13 dead, 21 more injured in Columbine.
   2748. hokieneer Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:17 PM (#4324928)
Gun controls cannot stop the kind of mentally ill civilian who shoots children in the head.

I also will be turning FB off for a while because the level of outrage is directly opposite of the level of silence I see when i post pics of children that American soldiers have executed (2006 incident), the 16 year American Obama executed, or the children who attend funerals and are droned to death.


Here I thought I was just being my ####### self by being even slightly put off by this current phenomenon currently happening on FB.

I need a drink
   2749. Chicago Joe Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:17 PM (#4324929)
I forget what the Columbine numbers were, but I don't think they approached 27 deaths. Few school massacres have. I can think of VA Tech (32 IIRC) and a couple of others.


13.
   2750. zonk Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:22 PM (#4324932)
If there's a knee jerk reaction here, its not banning guns. Its locking up people who should be considered a danger to themselves and others.


I suppose it depends on how your knees jerk...

Perhaps if just one of those 8 yo's had been allowed to be packin' inside the classroom, much of this tragedy would have been averted.

/NRA
   2751. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:23 PM (#4324934)
but I don't think seeing it a third time would have any better chance at getting through.
I haven't seen it, so by all means re-post if convenient.

/not a Bernanke fan in any sense.

Although, because Bernanke had any idea, doesn't mean it's a bad idea, or his idea. Stopped clocks, and so on.

Speaking of which, isn't it time we had a Secretary of State who was always against going to war that was the fuck up in Iraq?

"I agree with this opinion, which if embraced by the federal government would take contraception out of the political arena." Jindal also writes that prescription birth control drives up costs with unnecessary doctors' visits.
I eagerly await news of Jindal going after the greedy optometrists. I can't use a disposable, soft contact lens prescription 12 months and 1 day after it's issued.

"Here I thought I was just being my ####### self by being even slightly put off by this current phenomenon currently happening on FB."

So, is your outrage over the children killed in drone attacks, or that your attention is drawn to children killed in drone attacks? It's not clear.
   2752. The Good Face Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:26 PM (#4324938)
An adult shooting up a class of kindergarteners is yet another sign of significant social regression. This kind of #### didn't happen 30 years ago (*), even when we were in the grip of a bad recession.

(*) And the number of teenagers that did 30 years ago was way lower than the late 90s and 21st c.


This is an interesting point. If true (I haven't checked to see if you're right, but it sounds like a reasonable claim), some social scientist is going to become very famous when they come up with a good explanation for why mass shootings were so rare 30+ years ago and are so common now.

It's not directly studying for IQ tests, but presumably doesn't education help make you more intelligent (otherwise what's the point?) I think I'd agree with most of the statement except that I'd guess the education component is stronger than the genetic component.


Education reduces ignorance, and that is very important indeed. But that's not the same thing as increasing intelligence.
   2753. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:30 PM (#4324941)
Anyone remember the scifi writer whose novels written around 1970 included a future society where massacres and bombing attacks by civilians were daily fare?

Prescient fellow.
   2754. DA Baracus Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:30 PM (#4324943)
An adult shooting up a class of kindergarteners is yet another sign of significant social regression. This kind of #### didn't happen 30 years ago (*), even when we were in the grip of a bad recession.

(*) And the number of teenagers that did 30 years ago was way lower than the late 90s and 21st c.


Charles Whitman, or does he not count because he shot college students?
   2755. Poulanc Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:31 PM (#4324944)
some social scientist is going to become very famous when they come up with a good explanation for why mass shootings were so rare 30+ years ago and are so common now.



I would wager it's something simple like easier access to guns.
   2756. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:33 PM (#4324946)
Charles Whitman, or does he not count because he shot college students?

He didn't shoot K'ers and he shot in 1964(?). We progressed between 1964 and 1979-82. We've regressed since then.
   2757. Gamingboy Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:34 PM (#4324947)
Not here to discuss politics, socioeconomics or psychology, but I did not know before today that the worst school massacre in American history actually came in 1927. Would not have guessed that.
   2758. SteveF Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:35 PM (#4324949)
I would wager it also has something to do with how the US handles the mentally ill.
   2759. DA Baracus Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:37 PM (#4324951)
He didn't shoot K'ers and he shot in 1964(?). We progressed between 1964 and 1979-82. We've regressed since then.


Only shooting kindergarteners in the early 80s counts? That's a very, very narrow definition.
   2760. The Good Face Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:37 PM (#4324952)
some social scientist is going to become very famous when they come up with a good explanation for why mass shootings were so rare 30+ years ago and are so common now.



I would wager it's something simple like easier access to guns.


Nope. You used to be able to purchase firearms through a Sears catalogue BITGOD. In some states guns are much harder to get, in others about the same as it used to be. But they're certainly not easier to get. There's something else at work.
   2761. The Good Face Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:38 PM (#4324953)
Not here to discuss politics, socioeconomics or psychology, but I did not know before today that the worst school massacre in American history actually came in 1927. Would not have guessed that.


Ah, this is why one should always do the research! I was unaware of that event; maybe such killings aren't really much more common nowadays after all.
   2762. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:42 PM (#4324956)
Only shooting kindergarteners in the early 80s counts? That's a very, very narrow definition.


Shooting kindergarteners, particularly an adult doing it, is more depraved than shooting adults.

Wikipedia has what appears to be an exhaustive list of school shootings. They've gone way up since the late 70s/early 80s -- an obvious and irrefutable marker of social regression.

As noted, we're in decline. Pockets of improvement, but the increased productivity, wealth, and efficiency of the nation's economy has not coincided with broad social improvement -- quite the opposite.
   2763. Lassus Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:44 PM (#4324959)
Ah, this is why one should always do the research! I was unaware of that event; maybe such killings aren't really much more common nowadays after all.

This is why I firmly distrust SBB's "world way worse now" as opposed to the more believable "world now has more access to how bad the world actually is." It's like the "kids today!" argument.
   2764. Famous Original Joe C Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:44 PM (#4324960)
No idea. I've never taken one, unless you count the mock test I took a few months ago online.


What did you get on it, $160,000?
   2765. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:45 PM (#4324961)
If we took politics out of it and pretended the 2nd Amendment didn't exist and just tried to craft a strategy from scratch that would prevent this, I can't see how we can prevent this or even do much to guard against it.

Even something like a sky marshal at schools wouldn't stop an instantaneous massacre like this one unless by fluke the marshall was right there.

Stricter gun control or even a flat out ban wouldn't seem to be very effective in preventing a crazy person intent on possessing a weapon to possess a weapon.

A metal detector wouldn't stop a person intent on doing harm from gaining entry to the building - including just shooting his way through.

Some things you just can't prevent (like disease) or even effectively guard against. Crazy is one of them. There is a human nature to try to Do Something but I just can't see what action would be very effective to stop a situation like this.
   2766. hokieneer Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:46 PM (#4324962)
I would wager it's something simple like easier access to guns.


So is that the reason the homicide rate, violent crime rate, & gun crime rate have all been decreasing over the last 20 years.



He didn't shoot K'ers and he shot in 1964(?). We progressed between 1964 and 1979-82. We've regressed since then.


Not even looking at the extreme data points like today, just looking at rates, after 20 straight years of homicide and violent crime rate decreasing, we are back to mid-to-late 70s numbers.
   2767. Poulanc Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:47 PM (#4324963)
Some things you just can't prevent (like disease) or even effectively guard against. Crazy is one of them.


So let's not do anything?
   2768. zonk Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:49 PM (#4324965)
This is an interesting point. If true (I haven't checked to see if you're right, but it sounds like a reasonable claim), some social scientist is going to become very famous when they come up with a good explanation for why mass shootings were so rare 30+ years ago and are so common now.


Well, it's not "30" years ago -- but actually, here in Chicago, the local news was talking about a similar incident in Chicago 20 years ago...

Of course - this is probably a matter of folks like me saying "30 years ago", sort of forgetting we're not 20 any more, still thinking '30 years ago' means 1960s...

I do think that one component of this thinking is perception... "Media" has changed -- it's more omnipresent, globally 'as it happens', etc.

A grisly serial killer isn't the same as mass murder -- but flipping through channels the other night, I watched one of those discovery/history channel/whatever shows on Ed Gein. Body count aside, he wasn't a whole lot different in WTFness than say - Jeffry Dahmer. His was a big story at the time - it's really a matter of there not being cable news, an internet, etc.

My bet is that at least some of this "why didn't this sort of thing happen..." is more perception than reality. Maybe there's "more" -- but I don't think it's quite the level of "more" than we commonly think.

That's all just gut supposition on my part, though.
   2769. Famous Original Joe C Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:49 PM (#4324966)
He didn't shoot K'ers and he shot in 1964(?). We progressed between 1964 and 1979-82. We've regressed since then.


How old are you, SBB?
   2770. spike Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:51 PM (#4324969)
maybe such killings aren't really much more common nowadays after all.

Mass killings in the US are quite de rigeur. Just this year -

April 2 - A gunman kills seven people and wounds three in a shooting rampage at a Christian college in Oakland.

July 20 - A masked gunman kills 12 people and wounds 58 when he opens fire on moviegoers at a showing of the Batman film "The Dark Knight Rises" in Aurora, a suburb of Denver, Colorado.

August 5 - A gunman kills six people during Sunday services at a Sikh temple in Oak Creek, Wisconsin, before he is shot dead by a police officer.

August 24 - Two people are killed and eight wounded in a shooting outside the landmark Empire State Building in New York City at the height of the tourist season.

September 27 - A disgruntled former employee kills five people and takes his own life in a shooting rampage at a Minneapolis sign company from which he had been fired.

October 21 - Three people are killed in a Milwaukee area spa including the estranged wife of the suspected gunman, who then killed himself.

December 11 - Clackamas Mall, gunman kills two and then shoots self.
   2771. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:53 PM (#4324972)
Some things you just can't prevent (like disease) or even effectively guard against. Crazy is one of them.

So let's not do anything?


I don't see what there is to do that would be effective. That's my point.

So if there's nothing to do, then yes, let's not do anything.
   2772. DA Baracus Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:54 PM (#4324973)
Shooting kindergarteners, particularly an adult doing it, is more depraved than shooting adults.


Agreed, but it should be noted that the shooter's mom was a teacher at this school. That's why kindergartners were killed. Were she a HS teacher he still would have done this and instead HSers would have been shot and your "killing kindergartners shows we have regressed socially" wouldn't apply.
   2773. Famous Original Joe C Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:55 PM (#4324974)
Not even looking at the extreme data points like today, just looking at rates, after 20 straight years of homicide and violent crime rate decreasing, we are back to mid-to-late 70s numbers.


This is demonstrably false, if we're talking nationwide.
   2774. spike Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:56 PM (#4324976)
I don't see what there is to do that would be effective. That's my point.

Mass killings are the price of freedom, or so I am told.
   2775. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:57 PM (#4324978)
CBS is confirming that the suspected gunman Ryan Lanza's mother worked at the Newtown elementary school and is among the dead. It seems, then, that Lanza killed his father in New Jersey before heading to Connecticut to carry out the massacre at his mother's school.
   2776. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:57 PM (#4324979)
Mass killings are the price of freedom, or so I am told.


If we can't have our mass killings, the terrorists have already won ...
   2777. Gamingboy Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:00 PM (#4324981)
This is why I firmly distrust SBB's "world way worse now" as opposed to the more believable "world now has more access to how bad the world actually is." It's like the "kids today!" argument.


This. Horrible things have always happened, but the fact is that the world is so much smaller today, so you hear about it so much more. And it's not just because you can hear about horrible things mere minutes after they happen, it's because our transportation system allows journalists and politicians to get to the tragedy faster, even if it's in a relatively remote area.

Consider, for example, that many of the biggest and most famous disasters in American history seem to be located in famous areas: the great 1906 San Francisco earthquake and the Chicago fire of 1871, for example.

But, in reality, many of those grand tragedies paled in comparison to things that were worse but not so centrally located. On the very night of the Chicago fire, a firestorm near Peshtigo, WI killed 1,500 people. Far fewer people back then, or now, remember Peshtigo. Instead, the coverage back then and now is primarily focused on Chicago's fire, which had a death toll around 300. Nobody in the media or government really cared about Peshtigo, and even if they had it's unlikely that they could have afforded to get there very quickly.
Today, however, the media would have been able to get people to Peshtigo AND Chicago.

Do you get what I mean?
   2778. BDC Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:00 PM (#4324982)
I don't know if it was the worst massacre of young people ever, but it's worth remembering the Utøya killings in Norway, just last year. A country with very strict gun control, and a killer (Anders Breivik) much like Timothy McVeigh (a notable killer of children himself) – that is, guided by a warped politics, but quite sane as to the planning and execution of his killings. As much-noted last year, Norway has far stricter gun control laws than the US, and they were useless to stop the killer.

I really don't know what to make of it. Insane shooting sprees have been an American phenomenon since before I was born (I remember Whitman, when I was pretty young; Howard Unruh, who killed several children along with some adults, was ten years before I was born). Loath as I am to agree with both Ray and the Bear on anything :) I think they're right about gun control and such extreme incidents. Strict gun control can make urban neighborhoods a lot safer on a daily basis; it's not going to prevent lunatics from doing these mass killings unless you proscribe guns at about the same level you proscribe plutonium at the moment. (But nor is the opposite take true: arming the citizenry will not deter these madmen, and it will just make shooting situations more dangerous for everyone.)

I suppose one answer is to proactively institutionalize people who are at risk for becoming mass shooters. But if they break no laws beforehand, that's a huge civil liberties problem.
   2779. spike Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:02 PM (#4324983)
They have one every few years to our one every few weeks. USA! USA! USA!
   2780. Ron J2 Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:03 PM (#4324985)
#2758 Maybe there's also a need to up the ante if your goal is some form of celebrity. I recall a comedian joking that a simple murder won't even get on the news and there is a tiny seed of truth there.

There's also some evidence that the coverage of a particular atrocity serves as a trigger for others.

(And yes, it's not incontrovertible)
   2781. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:03 PM (#4324986)

Carrying concealed weapons into schools, churches and stadiums is against the law in Michigan, but it might not be for much longer.

Lawmakers in both the House and Senate approved Senate Bill 59 to allow concealed weapons in several gun-free zones Thursday, as well as doing away with county boards currently overseeing concealed pistol licensing.

"If you have pistol free zones they are actually mass murderer empowerment zones," said Steve Dulan, attorney for the Michigan Coalition of Responsible Gun Owners, who represents sportsman clubs throughout Michigan backing the bill. "If you actually look at the history, even over the past 10 years in the U.S., you find that maybe all but one mass shooting has occurred in a so-called gun free zone."

Michigan law currently prohibits concealed weapons in schools, churches, day cares, hospitals, dorms, casinos and any public entertainment venue able to hold more than 2,500 people. Violators can be charged a civil infraction with a $500 fine and six-month concealed pistol license suspension. Repeat offenses can lead to a four-year felony, $5,000 fine and concealed pistol license being revoked.

Under the new law schools and private establishments would be able to voluntarily remain pistol-free zones, if desired.

Dulan says creating gun-free zones disarms private citizens to any criminals who don't obey the laws in the first place.

"There is a complete logical fallacy that there are no guns in a gun free zone," Dulan said. "It's as ridiculous as the drug-free school zone signs. No one believes those either ... What you are doing in this case is disarming law biding people."

Michigan has 351,599 concealed weapons permits issued statewide, according to a state report dated Dec. 1. Those certified carriers would need an additional nine hours training and 94 additional rounds at the firing range to qualify to concealed carry in gun-free zones, the bill states.

Language in the concealed carry reform bill would eliminate county review boards made up of representatives from the Michigan State Police, county prosecutor's office and county sheriff's department, likely streamlining the process.

The Michigan Sheriff's Association has been one of the largest opponents of the bill. Northern Michigan sheriffs see the bill as a burden.

"It would make the sheriff the sole person on the board, and if I decide in my conscience a person should not have a (concealed carry permit) for what ever reason, then that person has the ability to appeal that in circuit court to the point where I could be fined for not giving a (permit)," said Charlevoix County Sheriff Don Schneider, who opposes the bill. "In no way do I want that dumped on us. It is just not right. You are going to cause every sheriff to say: 'You want a CCW? Fine, because I'm not going to get sued.'"


Link
   2782. Dale Sams Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:04 PM (#4324987)
arming the citizenry will not deter these madmen, and it will just make shooting situations more dangerous for everyone.)


I suspect the data on that. SSS and all.
   2783. Poulanc Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:08 PM (#4324988)
I suspect the data on that. SSS and all.



Are there any instances where an armed citizen has stopped someone intent on committing mass murder?
   2784. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:09 PM (#4324990)

Stricter gun control or even a flat out ban wouldn't seem to be very effective in preventing a crazy person intent on possessing a weapon to possess a weapon.


So why doesn't Japan have this problem? Fewer crazy people?
   2785. Steve Treder Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:10 PM (#4324991)
Horrible things have always happened, but the fact is that the world is so much smaller today, so you hear about it so much more. And it's not just because you can hear about horrible things mere minutes after they happen, it's because our transportation system allows journalists and politicians to get to the tragedy faster, even if it's in a relatively remote area.

The best-researched and most comprehensive book on this subject is "The Better Angels of Our Nature" by Steven Pinker. I cannot recommend it highly enough.

Pinker's conclusion: mayhem and violence are occurring at a lower rate in the current day than ever before.
   2786. hokieneer Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:12 PM (#4324994)
This is demonstrably false, if we're talking nationwide.


Pulled my numbers from wiki graph and wiki.

The 2nd link you posted is raw numbers, not rates.

The 1st link shows a steady decrease in total violent crime rate and assault. It also shows reduced rate in murder & rape compared to say '80,'85, and '90.. but not much of a downtrend the past decade.
   2787. Dale Sams Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:14 PM (#4324995)
So why doesn't Japan have this problem? Fewer crazy people?


Sarin aside...different culture? My pop psychology would say that the Japanese are more inclined to take personal responsibility and just off themselves rather than a crapload of people...and then themselves.
   2788. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:15 PM (#4324996)
I suppose one answer is to proactively institutionalize people who are at risk for becoming mass shooters. But if they break no laws beforehand, that's a huge civil liberties problem.


This was working fine in Minority Report until it happened to Tom Cruise.
   2789. Gamingboy Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:18 PM (#4324997)
I don't think I've ever seen Barack Obama this distraught. He's had to stop a few times to compose himself.
   2790. Dale Sams Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:19 PM (#4324998)
This was working fine in Minority Report until it happened to Tom Cruise.




I've only caught bits of Minority Report, but did they dismantle the system at the end, cause I call BS on that IRL.
   2791. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:19 PM (#4325000)
Nope. You used to be able to purchase firearms through a Sears catalogue BITGOD. In some states guns are much harder to get, in others about the same as it used to be. But they're certainly not easier to get. There's something else at work.


Serious question: Are better weapons cheaper than they were BITGOD?

Are there any instances where an armed citizen has stopped someone intent on committing mass murder?


Not serious answer: Just wait for the facts to come out at the Zimmerman trial.
   2792. Dale Sams Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:19 PM (#4325001)
I don't think I've ever seen Barack Obama this distraught. He's had to stop a few times to compose himself.


(insert snark about children with foreign sounding names that didn't keep him awake)
   2793. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:23 PM (#4325006)
(insert snark about children with foreign sounding names that didn't keep him awake)


Speaking of which:


NYU grad student Josh Begley is behind two of the more successful attempts to insert the drone debate into media coverage: an app called Drone+, banned by Apple, which would alert users each time the U.S. carries out a drone strike, and include the death toll. This week, Begley fired up @dronestream, a Twitter timeline of every documented U.S. drone strike from 2002-2012.
...
The feed uses data from the Bureau of Investigative Reporting, which only covers actions in Pakistan, Yemen, and Somalia (Afghanistan is, notably, not included). They count 354 total drone strikes, 302 under the Obama administration, with somewhere between 2,597 and 3,398 people killed, including between 473 and 889 civilians—and 176 children.

Begley started his project on Tuesday, after claiming that the Twitter project would take about 10 minutes to complete. As of Friday morning, he’s still at May, 2010.
   2794. Ron J2 Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:25 PM (#4325009)
So why doesn't Japan have this problem? Fewer crazy people?


I guess guns are harder to get. They had to use Sarin gas to kill 13 in an attack on the Tokyo subway. (1100 injured, 50 severe)

There's also the Lad airport attack. Japanese terrorists attacked an Israeli airport in support of the PLO. (26 dead, 80 injured)

   2795. Manny Coon Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:26 PM (#4325010)


So why doesn't Japan have this problem? Fewer crazy people?


Maybe it's the same reason Switzerland doesn't, which would mean it's probably not too closely related to gun control. Meanwhile China has few guns and has had a lot of rampages even if they aren't as deadly as the ones done with guns.

Japan and South Korea have some pretty impressive suicide rates for having so few guns, maybe the potential rampagers in those countries just decide to kill themselves instead for some reason.

I think the rampages and violence in modern America are significant issues, but super strict gun control seems like it may be barking up the tree as far as potential solutions go.
   2796. BDC Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:26 PM (#4325011)
working fine in Minority Report

Exactly; the other problem with my scheme is that it's science fiction …

Along with Steven Pinker, I do think that the world is getting less brutal. I've just been reading a bit about Lorenzo de' Medici, "the Magnificent." The man lived a little over 500 years ago, just six long human lifetimes. We've expressed due concern for Bradley Manning in this thread, but the Quattrocento Florentine equivalent of Bradley Manning would have been tossed out of a palazzo window low enough so that he would not be killed by the fall, but left to writhe around in agony for awhile in public, before being stabbed to death by a hired gang – needless to say, without any trial or even indictment. Perhaps modern punishments are subtly worse in some ways, but it's not long since "civilized" people really got off on insane public brutality for its own sake.
   2797. zonk Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:27 PM (#4325014)

The best-researched and most comprehensive book on this subject is "The Better Angels of Our Nature" by Steven Pinker. I cannot recommend it highly enough.

Pinker's conclusion: mayhem and violence are occurring at a lower rate in the current day than ever before.


That jibes with my gut... I'll have to check out the book.
   2798. Dale Sams Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:29 PM (#4325015)
(Also insert snark about I haven't seen anyone say '####### Conneticutt Almost certainly Democrat gaming nerd!'...but you can imagine if this guy were a Texas right-winger..Can't imagine? Cast your memory back to the few minutes after Gifford was shot)
   2799. Gamingboy Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:29 PM (#4325017)
Guns don't kill people, people kill people. That is true. However, guns help people kill people a lot easier than a knife or a sword helps a person kill people.

Okay, crud, now I've said political stuff and not observations.
   2800. Dale Sams Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:30 PM (#4325019)
Speaking of which:


I put the link to that on my fb page about an hour ago. haven't heard one peep of course.
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