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Sunday, December 02, 2012

OTP December 2012 - Pushing G.O.P. to Negotiate, Obama Ends Giving In

Mr. Obama, scarred by failed negotiations in his first term and emboldened by a clear if close election to a second, has emerged as a different kind of negotiator in the past week or two, sticking to the liberal line and frustrating Republicans on the other side of the bargaining table.

Bitter Mouse Posted: December 02, 2012 at 11:15 PM | 6172 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   2801. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:36 PM (#4325026)
Guns don't kill people, people kill people. That is true. However, guns help people kill people a lot easier than a knife or a sword helps a person kill people.


If mass murder is truly one's goal, a gun is relatively inefficient. Driving your car through a red light in NYC can take out 25 people easy. Driving your car or a truck through Times Square can take out 100. Flying a plane into a building can take out 3,000.

Bombs (Bath Township, 1927), gas attacks...

The gun control argument, whatever its merits, doesn't apply best to a crazed maniac intent on murdering 30 schoolkids. He could have driven his car through the classroom window and caused serious mayhem.
   2802. The Good Face Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:36 PM (#4325028)
Serious question: Are better weapons cheaper than they were BITGOD?


Short answer; not really.

Longer answer, it depends on what you mean by "better". Many of the designs sold by the top gunmakers over the past 20-30 years are better engineered and constructed than older guns, especially with respect to safety, reliability and preventing accidental discharges, but they are not really any more lethal. Some of the most devastating guns and cartridges that are commonly used and manufactured today were designed by John Browning who died in 1926
   2803. hokieneer Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:38 PM (#4325030)
I think the rampages and violence in modern America are significant issues, but super strict gun control seems like it may be barking up the tree as far as potential solutions go.


I'm not sure if it is or not.

But, as far as this particular incident, someone who was willing to kill so many young children, tells me this was more of a mental health problem, as opposed to a gun control problem. (From the comments above it does seem the children were targeted because of a relationship with a teacher there. Still, to me, there seems to be something different about pulling the trigger on a 6 year old as opposed to a HS or university student. Of course I'm trying to put myself inside of a mind that's, well... yeah)
   2804. Poulanc Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:42 PM (#4325036)
The gun control argument, whatever its merits, doesn't apply best to a crazed maniac intent on murdering 30 schoolkids. He could have driven his car through the classroom window and caused serious mayhem.



Then how come people don't do that, and instead buy guns and start shooting folks?
   2805. spike Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:45 PM (#4325042)
Because they are probably poor and therefore too dumb to think of efficient ways of killing lots of folks, duh.
   2806. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:47 PM (#4325043)
Wikipedia has what appears to be an exhaustive list of school shootings. They've gone way up since the late 70s/early 80s -- an obvious and irrefutable marker of social regression.

As noted, we're in decline. Pockets of improvement, but the increased productivity, wealth, and efficiency of the nation's economy has not coincided with broad social improvement -- quite the opposite.
So, 'broad social improvement' itself is not a marker, but unnamed other things along with school shootings, are? Or... something?

   2807. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:48 PM (#4325046)
I bitterly regret the 2nd half of #2714. Wrote it before I'd looked at the news. For the record.
   2808. Jay Z Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:51 PM (#4325051)

Nope. You used to be able to purchase firearms through a Sears catalogue BITGOD. In some states guns are much harder to get, in others about the same as it used to be. But they're certainly not easier to get. There's something else at work.


Maybe guns overall are harder to get, but guns that make it easier to kill a lot of people, plus body armor, is easier to get. A lot of shotguns and rifles aren't that useful in these mass murder situations.

I am not discounting that society might be causing these situations somehow, but the specific equipment might be easier to get.
   2809. Famous Original Joe C Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:53 PM (#4325054)
Hokieneer/[2786] - I misread your original post about crime rates, thought you were insinuating something you weren't on second reading, and we actually are in agreement. Sorry for the confusion there.
   2810. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:54 PM (#4325056)
This is why I firmly distrust SBB's "world way worse now" as opposed to the more believable "world now has more access to how bad the world actually is." It's like the "kids today!" argument.


This. Horrible things have always happened, but the fact is that the world is so much smaller today, so you hear about it so much more. And it's not just because you can hear about horrible things mere minutes after they happen, it's because our transportation system allows journalists and politicians to get to the tragedy faster, even if it's in a relatively remote area.
Let's remember too that if the US population has doubled in the last 50 years, massacres should be happening twice as often.

   2811. Darren Posted: December 14, 2012 at 04:59 PM (#4325060)
An adult shooting up a class of kindergarteners is yet another sign of significant social regression. This kind of #### didn't happen 30 years ago (*), even when we were in the grip of a bad recession.


And lynchings don't happen today. And a lot of other horrible stuff that was common back then doesn't happen now.
   2812. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 14, 2012 at 05:00 PM (#4325062)
I suspect the data on that. SSS and all.

Are there any instances where an armed citizen has stopped someone intent on committing mass murder?
To which the only reasonable answer is more of us have to pack!

The 1st link shows a steady decrease in total violent crime rate and assault. It also shows reduced rate in murder & rape compared to say '80,'85, and '90.. but not much of a downtrend the past decade.
I thought this had been asked and answered, in that abortion eliminated the cohort of unwanted children who would have reached the age of being able to commit violent crimes (say, 15 years after Roe v Wade), and as the abortion rate peaked then plateaud, the rate of violent crime also plateaud.
   2813. hokieneer Posted: December 14, 2012 at 05:02 PM (#4325066)
Hokieneer/[2786] - I misread your original post about crime rates, thought you were insinuating something you weren't on second reading, and we actually are in agreement. Sorry for the confusion there.


No prob.
   2814. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 05:02 PM (#4325067)
Then how come people don't do that, and instead buy guns and start shooting folks?


They do do it sometimes (bombs, planes), but what does it matter whether people use X mechanism to do something that's easy to do or Y mechanism?
   2815. ASmitty Posted: December 14, 2012 at 05:06 PM (#4325074)
I am somewhat of an agnostic on the issue of gun control, but I do find instances like this to be odd times to start looking at tighter gun control as the answer.

If a person is willing to murder 20 or so children, he's probably capable of obtaining a firearm illegally; or legally if he has no prior criminal record.

Gun control seems more relevant when discussing more "mundane" shootings and crimes, rather than mass murder. If you're intent on mass murder, gun control isn't going to stop you. It probably won't even slow you down.
   2816. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 14, 2012 at 05:06 PM (#4325075)
gaming

thanks for remembering peshtigo. it is certainly remembered by folks in wisconsin.
   2817. spike Posted: December 14, 2012 at 05:06 PM (#4325076)
Because if one mechanism was significantly easier to purchase, operate, and conceal then perhaps controlling that method might reduce some of the instances? Bombs and planes are outside the scope of abilities of the overwhelming majority of the population - although you do raise a good point - explosives and planes are much more tightly controlled. Perhaps that's why
   2818. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 14, 2012 at 05:10 PM (#4325081)
An adult shooting up a class of kindergarteners is yet another sign of significant social regression. This kind of #### didn't happen 30 years ago (*), even when we were in the grip of a bad recession.

And lynchings don't happen today. And a lot of other horrible stuff that was common back then doesn't happen now.
There is nothing you can say that will keep him from imaging this as one more sign of our National Decline.
   2819. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 14, 2012 at 05:14 PM (#4325084)
There is nothing you can say that will keep him from imaging this as one more sign of our National Decline.
I see relentless negativity and cynicism as one more sign of our National Decline, and nothing you can say will keep me from imagining this to be true.
   2820. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 14, 2012 at 05:14 PM (#4325085)
Don't many of the adult shooters in these cases have histories of mental illnesses?

It's hard to imagine gun control short of that exercised in England around the 60s and 70s would have an effect on these shootings. If anything is likely to help, it would be better care and treatment of people who show early on whatever the signs are of being prone to doing this kind of thing. At the same time, should you gear the mental health profession towards dealing with this to the neglect of other things? Can you, should you turn part of the profession at large into a giant screening program against mass murder?

I hear from conversations with mental health people that the practice's emphasis on active intervention can make people reluctant to talk about certain subjects.
   2821. Famous Original Joe C Posted: December 14, 2012 at 05:15 PM (#4325086)
An adult shooting up a class of kindergarteners is yet another sign of significant social regression. This kind of #### didn't happen 30 years ago (*), even when we were in the grip of a bad recession.

And lynchings don't happen today. And a lot of other horrible stuff that was common back then doesn't happen now.


Funny, no black people have been impaled with an American flag here in Boston since (very roughly) 30 years ago.
   2822. Shredder Posted: December 14, 2012 at 05:24 PM (#4325093)
Flying a plane into a building can take out 3,000.
And this is really a relevant comparison, because it's quite easy to go to one of those passenger jet shows and pick up a 747. They don't even require a background check!
   2823. BDC Posted: December 14, 2012 at 05:24 PM (#4325094)
Are there any instances where an armed citizen has stopped someone intent on committing mass murder?

To which the only reasonable answer is more of us have to pack!


Evidently (I may originally have learned this from a BBTF thread, and later verified it independently), Charles Whitman was pinned down on the UT Tower in part by good ol' Austin boys who broke out their rifles and aided police. That would not be SOP in shooting incidents 45 years later, to say the least, though.

The one thing I know for sure (agreeing with Carter's sarcasm here) is that the average handgun-toting citizen in a school/campus/theatre shooting incident is going to kill people inadvertently, and/or get shot by a cop. People just have no idea about these situations, unless they're veteran infantrymen. Heck, I have no idea about them; I've just read a lot about them and am applying a keen grasp of Murphy's Law.

It probably would deter the typical convenience-store robber if a big sign in the window said I HAVE A BIG GUN AND WILL SHOOT YOU WITH IT IF YOU ACT UP, though that might also drive away paying customers. The same sign will have no effect on a mass shooter. If anything he may see it as a challenge.
   2824. hokieneer Posted: December 14, 2012 at 05:24 PM (#4325096)
Don't many of the adult shooters in these cases have histories of mental illnesses?


Coworker said that most of the adult shooters in his lifetime (mid 30s) were at least on anti-depressants. Have no idea how true that is or how much being on Prozac equates to overall poor mental health, poor health to the point of picking up a weapon and taking some people along with you.
   2825. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 05:35 PM (#4325102)
Are there any instances where an armed citizen has stopped someone intent on committing mass murder?


I'm pretty sure the Appalachian Law School shooting in 2001 or '02? was stopped soon after it begun by guys who retrieved their own firearms and ultimately subdued the suspect. I'm almost certain they didn't shoot him though.

checks:

App Law school shooting

3 were killed, 3 wounded, suspect was taken down in some fashion physically before the other guns were present, or the guy was subdued physically after the suspect saw the 'other guns' choose your version
   2826. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 14, 2012 at 05:40 PM (#4325104)
There is nothing you can say that will keep him from imaging this as one more sign of our National Decline.

Well, there might be but pointing to things that happened before around 1978 wouldn't be examples. We progressed socially and culturally from lynching times to 1978.
   2827. Poulanc Posted: December 14, 2012 at 05:40 PM (#4325105)


I'm pretty sure the Appalachian Law School shooting in 2001 or '02? was stopped soon after it begun by guys who retrieved their own firearms and ultimately subdued the suspect. I'm almost certain they didn't shoot him though.

checks:

App Law school shooting


Thanks.

The three guys that subdued the suspect were a police officer (who apparently had body armor in his car), a sheriff's deputy, and a former Marine and police officer. (The former Marine and police officer was not armed.)

   2828. Gamingboy Posted: December 14, 2012 at 05:41 PM (#4325107)
While I will agree that perhaps having people with guns would make it less likely that there would be mass shootings, that only assumes that those people would be highly trained and getting good practice. Because otherwise, the only thing I see happening is a poor shot missing the shooter entirely and hitting an innocent. It happens even with cops who DO presumably get a ton of training... I think it wasn't too long ago that more people in a shootout in NYC got hit by police gunfire than by the original shooter himself?
   2829. Manny Coon Posted: December 14, 2012 at 05:43 PM (#4325110)
I'm pretty sure the Appalachian Law School shooting in 2001 or '02? was stopped soon after it begun by guys who retrieved their own firearms and ultimately subdued the suspect. I'm almost certain they didn't shoot him though.


Reading the article, it sounds like the guys were off duty law enforcement officers, so they were actually trained to handle the situation, not just random citizens.

I really don't think gun control will help too much in these types of situations (short of a complete ban, which is politically impossible in the USA and unnecessary to prevent these things in most of the world), but the idea that normal citizens should be carrying guns all the time so they can take down bad guys in wild west style gun fights is completely crazy and these delusional gun fantasies play into the warped culture many Americans have with firearms.
   2830. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 05:43 PM (#4325111)
I'm pretty sure it wasn't headed towards a mass shooting, but a armed robber went into a Kroeger here in Indy recently to rob it and a stock boy got his gun and shot and killed the robber as he was attempting to rob the manager in the store office or wherever. He wasn't charged (not suggesting otherwise), nor was he fired by Kroeger which explicitly prohibits firearms in the workplace.
   2831. Gamingboy Posted: December 14, 2012 at 05:47 PM (#4325118)
BTW, just wondering here: I saw that the shooting in Portland or wherever was done by a guy who stole a gun. Do those things from Skyfall where guns can be made to only be fired by certain people really exist? Because if they do, I think those should be more common.
   2832. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 14, 2012 at 05:51 PM (#4325123)
For Jack Carter:


5560. Rants Mulliniks (formerly Cold Prosimian) Posted: August 31, 2012 at 11:07 AM (#4223539)

From 2008 until around 2010, Bernanke did his job unquestionably. He prevented the complete and utter collapse of the economy.



I've posted these Bernanke quotes on BBTF before, but if I must:

Nov. 21, 2002 - "The U.S. government has a technology, called a printing press (or today, its electronic equivalent), that allows it to produce as many U.S. dollars as it wishes at no cost."

July, 2005 - "We’ve never had a decline in house prices on a nationwide basis. So, what I think what is more likely is that house prices will slow, maybe stabilize, might slow consumption spending a bit. I don’t think it’s gonna drive the economy too far from its full employment path, though."

Oct. 20, 2005 - "House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals."

Nov. 15, 2005 - "With respect to their safety, derivatives, for the most part, are traded among very sophisticated financial institutions and individuals who have considerable incentive to understand them and to use them properly."

Oct. 4, 2006 - "If current trends continue, the typical U.S. worker will be considerably more productive several decades from now. Thus, one might argue that letting future generations bear the burden of population aging is appropriate, as they will likely be richer than we are even taking that burden into account."


Feb. 15, 2007 - "Despite the ongoing adjustments in the housing sector, overall economic prospects for households remain good. Household finances appear generally solid, and delinquency rates on most types of consumer loans and residential mortgages remain low."

Jan. 10, 2008 - "The Federal Reserve is not currently forecasting a recession."

Jan. 18, 2008 - (Two months before Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac collapsed and were nationalized) "They will make it through the storm."

June 3, 2009 - (When asked directly during a congressional hearing if the Federal Reserve would monetize U.S. government debt) "The Federal Reserve will not monetize the debt."

June 9, 2008 - "The risk that the economy has entered a substantial downturn appears to have diminished over the past month or so."

July 20, 2008 - "The GSEs are adequately capitalized. They are in no danger of failing."

Aug. 2, 2010 - "The financial crisis appears to be mostly behind us, and the economy seems to have stabilized and is expanding again."

Oct. 15, 2010 - "...inflation is running at rates that are too low relative to the levels that the Committee judges to be most consistent with the Federal Reserve's dual mandate in the longer run."

Dec. 5, 2010 - "One myth that’s out there is that what we’re doing is printing money. We’re not printing money."

Dec. 5, 2010 - "The money supply is not changing in any significant way. What we’re doing is lowering interest rates by buying Treasury securities."

Dec. 5, 2010 - "I wish I'd been omniscient and seen the crisis coming."

Dec. 5, 2010 - "We’ve been very, very clear that we will not allow inflation to rise above 2 percent."

I have lots of quotes he gave before the 2008 collapse that will no doubt further bolster your trust in Bernanke, but again, when you're brainwashed into believing Chicago-school economic theory despite what's going on in front of your eyes it likely won't do any good. Bernanke is a fool, and after examining his illustrious track record, anyone that puts stock in his predictions or advice must also be a fool.

Despite Bernanke's (claimed or actual) ignorance of the indicators that tipped off the 2008 crisis before it happened, they did exist. Many in the crazy-conspiracy-wacko-tinfoil hat-wearing alternative media began warning of the crisis back in 2006, which was why I avoided any loss at all in 2008 by pulling my meagre investments out of the stock market and into precious metals, where they have done very well. But of course, this was just a pure fluke, and the crisis is over, and the 100 million American that are living dangerously close to or below the poverty line will all find themselves with productive jobs within a year thanks to puppet master Bernanke.



Originally posted in this thread in response to another uttering of Bernanke lover tshipman.
   2833. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: December 14, 2012 at 05:51 PM (#4325124)
The main shooter had 4 guns, one of which is a .223 caliber rifle.



So another case of the guns being used being common civilian weapons, that are legal all around the world,


I don't know much about guns, but is a semi-automatic .223 Bushmaster a "common civilian weapon", legal all around the world
   2834. The Good Face Posted: December 14, 2012 at 05:56 PM (#4325127)
It happens even with cops who DO presumably get a ton of training... I think it wasn't too long ago that more people in a shootout in NYC got hit by police gunfire than by the original shooter himself?


Cop aptitude with firearms varies wildly. Most PDs have relatively easy firearm qualification standards; it's basically show up at a range once a year or so and demonstrate the ability to hit the broad side of a barn. Some officers have zero interest in shooting and do no more than that bare minimum; others are absolute gun nuts who shoot constantly. Most probably fall somewhere in the middle. But you certainly shouldn't assume that any given cop is adept in the safe handling or skillful use of firearms.

This actually makes sense when you think about it. Most cops never discharge their firearm in the course of duty over their career; it's not a particularly efficient use of their training time to have them focus on mastering something most of them will never need.
   2835. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 14, 2012 at 05:58 PM (#4325128)
@2824--hokie--yeah, I can't even pretend what I'm talking about wrt mental illness. For example, I think most depression is not in that category, and is very often a perfectly sensible response to events. I also think the normative nature of mental health practice can be very destructive. While this is anecdotal stuff on the order of 'all lberals x', the prescriptive sense a lot of people have, that somethng takes this long and no longer to get over, diminishes (for example) the pain of grief and loss.

I know a man who lost his wife of 20 years around age 40. 20 years later he still misses her terribly, but has a life. He rarely talks about it because the almost universal opinion is that he should have been past this years and years ago. I just think maybe he loved her more than most people love, and why should he have another woman if he doesn't want one? It's not like he's a shut in. Anyway, that's not relevant to the topic, but from your post and what I've heard it sounds like depression might be the most common symptom displayed in advance of these incidents.

I think it wasn't too long ago that more people in a shootout in NYC got hit by police gunfire than by the original shooter himself?
Was that the case of the knife wielding pedestrian in midtown who a pack of cops followed for a couple of blocks before bringing down with the proverbial hail of bullets?

If there was ever a case for shooting a guy in the leg first, one like this where the cops had overwhelming force seems to be an example.
   2836. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 14, 2012 at 05:59 PM (#4325129)
@2328: Thanks, Rants. I appreciate it.
   2837. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 06:00 PM (#4325130)
Because otherwise, the only thing I see happening is a poor shot missing the shooter entirely and hitting an innocent.


this is why my 'home protection' firearm of choice is a simple 12 gauge pump, with double .00 buck shot. Even my wife can't miss with that. Ridiculously low concern of home invasion in my zip code is noted.

for concealed carry a shotgun doesn't work, but do completely agree, shooting a handgun accurately takes real practice. Throw in nerves, moving targets and it's not easy for a novice. The best odds for a citizen take down of a mass shooter is likely via ambush.
   2838. DA Baracus Posted: December 14, 2012 at 06:03 PM (#4325134)
You're thinking of the Empire Building shooting from the summer:

New York (CNN) -- A disgruntled former apparel designer was killed Friday morning in a hail of police gunfire in front of the Empire State Building after he shot and killed a co-worker and engaged in a gunbattle with two officers, authorities said.

Police officers fired a total of 16 rounds; one officer shot nine while another one shot seven, the New York Police Department said.


Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said the bystanders were not hit directly by police, but rather the officers' struck "flowerpots and other objects around, so ... their bullets fragmented and, in essence, that's what caused the wounds."

   2839. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 06:07 PM (#4325136)
.223


this refers to the round/cartridge being used. It is near the top of the list (I'm guessing but would be stunned to be wrong) in most commonly used rifle cartridges as it is versitile in terms of the different types of rifles that may be used to fire the round.

The 'Bushmaster' is simply the brand of the product the suspect used to fire the .223 rounds. It's a type of rifle which is quite common.
   2840. Famous Original Joe C Posted: December 14, 2012 at 06:10 PM (#4325137)
   2841. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 14, 2012 at 06:17 PM (#4325140)
Sensible gun control should have been enacted 100 years ago, but there's more to it than that. We acculturate these narcissistic, misanthropic losers by the bushel. OK, the guy's having problems with his woman. But he tells himself, "I'm not going to just kill her, I want to shoot up a classroom of five-year-olds." And he acts on that want, with no discernible reason other than, "I want to."

And the country develops people like Bernie Madoff, an establishment product, who brazenly rips off the money of schools, museums, Jewish remembrance organizations, by the tens of millions.

And a CEO/executive class that regularly cooks the books of major public corporations.

Yeah, that's not decline. /sarc
   2842. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 06:29 PM (#4325148)

Evangelical radio host Bryan Fischer had a similar, if far loonier, message. “Here’s the bottom line — God is not going to go where He is not wanted,” he said on his radio show today. “We kicked God out of our public school system. I think God would say to us, hey, I would be glad to protect your children, but you gotta invite me back into your world first. I’m not going to go where I’m not wanted. I am a gentleman… Back when we had prayer, the Bible and the Ten Commandments in schools, we did not need guns.”
   2843. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 06:32 PM (#4325150)

A permissive gun regime is not the only reason that the United States suffers so many atrocities like the one in Connecticut. An inadequate mental health system is surely at least as important a part of the answer, as are half a dozen other factors arising from some of the deepest wellsprings of American culture.

Nor can anybody promise that more rational gun laws would prevent each and every mass murder in this country. Gun killings do occur even in countries that restrict guns with maximum severity.

But we can say that if the United States worked harder to keep guns out of the hands of dangerous people, there would be many, many fewer atrocities like the one in Connecticut.

And I'll say: I'll accept no lectures about "sensitivity" on days of tragedy like today from people who work the other 364 days of the year against any attempt to prevent such tragedies.

It's bad enough to have a gun lobby. It's the last straw when that lobby also sets up itself as the civility police. It may not be politically possible to do anything about the prevalence of weapons of mass murder. But it damn well ought to be possible to complain about them - and about the people who condone them.


David Frum
   2844. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 14, 2012 at 06:35 PM (#4325153)
You're thinking of the Empire Building shooting from the summer:
Pretty sure there was a pedestrian with a knife who walked several blocks through midtown with a dozen cops and several hundred pedestrians in tow before he was shot.

Yup. It's here.
   2845. Dale Sams Posted: December 14, 2012 at 06:38 PM (#4325155)
It's bad enough to have a gun lobby. It's the last straw when that lobby also sets up itself as the civility police. It may not be politically possible to do anything about the prevalence of weapons of mass murder. But it damn well ought to be possible to complain about them - and about the people who condone them.


So..being sensitive and civil in the light of a tragedy is bad.

And...being insensitive in the light of a tragedy (see how NRA is portrayed in Bowling for Columbine) is bad.
   2846. spike Posted: December 14, 2012 at 06:44 PM (#4325157)
   2847. DA Baracus Posted: December 14, 2012 at 06:45 PM (#4325158)
Evangelical radio host Bryan Fischer had a similar, if far loonier, message.


Was the "similar to" Mike Huckabee?

Well, you know, it’s an interesting thing. We ask why there is violence in our schools, but we’ve systematically removed God from our schools. Should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage because we’ve made it a palce where we don’t want to talk about eternity, life, what responsibility means, accountability? That we’re not just going to have to be accountable to the police, if they catch us. But one day, we will stand before a Holy God in judgment. If we don’t believe that, then we don’t fear that.


(Spike can have the rest of my Coke.)
   2848. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 14, 2012 at 06:46 PM (#4325160)
@2845: Is your point that two different people have two different opinions? Maybe I'm not following...
   2849. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 14, 2012 at 06:47 PM (#4325161)
Should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage because we’ve made it a palce where we don’t want to talk about eternity, life, what responsibility means, accountability?

But wouldn't God have been there to protect the innocent 5-year-olds? Isn't He everywhere?

If not, then what the #### good is He?

You don't say the Ten Commandments here anymore, therefore I'm leaving? That's how God thinks?

That's ####### absurd, you ####### halfwitted backwoods fool.
   2850. Steve Treder Posted: December 14, 2012 at 06:52 PM (#4325165)
Isn't He everywhere?

Why, no. He doesn't go where He's not wanted. He's a gentleman.

Try to keep up.
   2851. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 14, 2012 at 06:54 PM (#4325166)
If not, then what the #### good is He?
Apparently, God works like All-State. Like a good neighbor, God is there, but only if you're a member of his club.

This kind of smug I-told-you-so Christianism brings out the hate in me.

Also, we can't talk about gun control, but we should talk about religion in schools? #### all that.
   2852. spike Posted: December 14, 2012 at 06:56 PM (#4325168)
But wouldn't God have been there to protect the innocent 5-year-olds? Isn't He everywhere?

I had the same reaction after the tsunamis. I believe in tolerance, but don't ever say something like "God never closes a door without opening a window!" unless you really want an earful.
   2853. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: December 14, 2012 at 07:01 PM (#4325169)
I had the same reaction after the tsunamis. I believe in tolerance, but don't ever say something like "God never closes a door without opening a window!" unless you really want an earful.
There are two distinct issues here, though. Both are related to problematic theological invocations of justice after great loss and great suffering, but one is still a lot worse than the other.

First, you have statements, in the wake of loss and suffering, that some mysterious justice may be served in ways we can't understand. These are, at best, insensitive and unconvincing.

Second, you have statements, in he wake of loss and suffering, that this suffering is a direct result of God's justice, that this horrific loss in fact clearly reflects a righteous God's will, an act of punishment for our public policy regime. That is, I mean, there are not ####### words.
   2854. SteveF Posted: December 14, 2012 at 07:02 PM (#4325170)
That is, I mean, there are not ####### words.


If there were, they wouldn't make it past the nanny anyway.
   2855. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 14, 2012 at 07:04 PM (#4325171)
This kind of smug I-told-you-so Christianism brings out the hate in me.

It'll get better -- they're only a few hours away (if that) from blaming gays and the rise of gay marriage.
   2856. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 14, 2012 at 07:05 PM (#4325173)
Longer answer, it depends on what you mean by "better". Many of the designs sold by the top gunmakers over the past 20-30 years are better engineered and constructed than older guns, especially with respect to safety, reliability and preventing accidental discharges, but they are not really any more lethal. Some of the most devastating guns and cartridges that are commonly used and manufactured today were designed by John Browning who died in 1926


Thanks. But I guess I was thinking more in terms of accuracy and ease of use when I said better. Rapid fire in particular.
   2857. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 14, 2012 at 07:05 PM (#4325174)
That is, I mean, there are not ####### words.

If there were, they wouldn't make it past the nanny anyway.
Some people are just fucking lazy.

   2858. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 14, 2012 at 07:07 PM (#4325175)
I need to go hit baseballs. Stewing in this news isn't doing me a bit of good.
   2859. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: December 14, 2012 at 07:09 PM (#4325177)
I dont get the God that these people preach. Is he/she the god of fire and brimstone from the Old Testament or the peace and love thy neighbor god of the New Testament? I guess he is whatever what they want him to be to promote their message of intolerance.
   2860. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 14, 2012 at 07:11 PM (#4325180)
I dont get the God that these people preach.
Their God sounds like a major #######.
   2861. spike Posted: December 14, 2012 at 07:11 PM (#4325181)
I need to go hit baseballs. Stewing in this news isn't doing me a bit of good.

I am performing at a Toys For Tots benefit and know there are going to be some absolutely teeth gritting moments i am going to have to endure. Not to mention a discussion with my 7 year old this afternoon that was as heartbreaking as anything I have ever had to do. It's left me a bit raw.
   2862. Dale Sams Posted: December 14, 2012 at 07:12 PM (#4325182)
There are two distinct issues here, though. Both are related to problematic theological invocations of justice after great loss and great suffering, but one is still a lot worse than the other.

First, you have statements, in the wake of loss and suffering, that some mysterious justice may be served in ways we can't understand. These are, at best, insensitive and unconvincing.

Second, you have statements, in he wake of loss and suffering, that this suffering is a direct result of God's justice, that this horrific loss in fact clearly reflects a righteous God's will, an act of punishment for our public policy regime. That is, I mean, there are not ####### words.


Yes, but all this is followed up by the sophomoric, "There either isn't a God, or he's a horrible mean bastard."

Apparently, God works like All-State. Like a good neighbor, God is there, but only if you're a member of his club.


That's funny, because whenever they show the poor people who rely on a less efficient insurance, my first thought is "How can you be so mean to just stand there and say,'Shouldn't have left us.'"
   2863. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: December 14, 2012 at 07:12 PM (#4325183)
Is he/she the god of fire and brimstone from the Old Testament or the peace and love thy neighbor god of the New Testament?
This isn't necessarily the time for biblical theology, but this popular version of the theologies of the Jewish Bible and the Christian New Testament is both wrong as a literary/theological interpretation and pretty offensive to the millions of people who don't believe the New Testament was an improvement on the previous one.

You'll note that the vast majority of times that someone says something ####### stupid like Fischer and Huckabee above, it's ain't a Jew.

EDIT: There is, in fact, an amazing, complex and well-developed debate about God's justice and the problem of evil, with multiple different positions clearly articulated within the Hebrew Scriptures. You see something along the lines of the more problematic punishment/reward system articulated in Proverbs, you see a more complex, uncertain, historical articulation of God's justice in the books of Kings/Judges, you see a rejection of the entire problematic of justice in Ecclesiastes/Qohelet, you see a profound narrative rejection of all easy answers to the question of God's justice in Job, but combined with nonetheless an exhortation to live justly in the world. Really amazing stuff that should not be called just "fire'n'brimstone".
   2864. zonk Posted: December 14, 2012 at 07:18 PM (#4325188)
What say you all about magazine/clip size?

Interesting note that TPM published --
...Given the number killed, there’s a good chance this guy was armed similarly to the Aurora shooter - an assault rifle with a large magazine.

Even if it’s not the case here, large magazines in high-powered rifles have clearly upped the carnage that shooters were able to inflict in recent attacks. (Compare the Giffords shooting - handgun - to Aurora - AR15 w/ drum magazine.)

In my experience, though, even many die-hard gun owners (like my dad) understand that you don’t need this kind of armament for any vaguely rational gun-owning purpose like home defense or hunting. In fact there’s lots of guidance from gun experts (or gun nuts, depending on your perspective), that a standard handgun or shotgun is more effective if you’re concerned about a home invasion situation.

Really, the ONLY justification for these assault rifles and large magazines (other then the malicious intent to kill a lot of people quickly), is if you truly believe the delusion that we have to be prepared to one day fight off the oppressing might of the US military and/or UN, “Turner Diaries”-style.


Is it reasonable to say that rather than gun control -- the focus ought to be on limiting the some of the specific attributes that make these mass killings more possible?

This sounds logical enough to me -- I'm no gun expert, but doesn't that sound right?

Why should I, joe citizen, need something with a drum/extended clip?

Even if you think it's necessary to prepare for coming UN/Obama oppression... is an extended clip semi-automatic really going be all that different? I mean - in such a world, I would pretty much imagine it's gonna be airstrikes, tanks, and such that do the oppressing.
   2865. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: December 14, 2012 at 07:18 PM (#4325189)
This isn't necessarily the time for biblical theology, but this popular version of the theologies of the Jewish Bible and the Christian New Testament is both wrong as a literary/theological interpretation and pretty offensive to the millions of people who don't believe the New Testament was an improvement on the previous one.


Duly noted and I agree with your assessments of douche-nozzles like Huckabee and Fischer.
   2866. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 14, 2012 at 07:21 PM (#4325192)
Even if you think it's necessary to prepare for coming UN/Obama oppression... is an extended clip semi-automatic really going be all that different? I mean - in such a world, I would pretty much imagine it's gonna be airstrikes, tanks, and such that do the oppressing.
The most effective way to combat the coming Obama takeover is to shrink his military budget until you can drown it in a bathtub.
   2867. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: December 14, 2012 at 07:28 PM (#4325195)
.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

Just to add on to more of the bad news.
   2868. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: December 14, 2012 at 07:31 PM (#4325198)
Evangelical radio host Bryan Fischer had a similar, if far loonier, message. “Here’s the bottom line — God is not going to go where He is not wanted,” he said on his radio show today. “We kicked God out of our public school system. I think God would say to us, hey, I would be glad to protect your children, but you gotta invite me back into your world first. I’m not going to go where I’m not wanted. I am a gentleman…


What part of the "God loves each and every one of us unconditionally" drivel that you guys teach don't you understand you hate filled worthless piece of human garbage?
   2869. Tripon Posted: December 14, 2012 at 08:13 PM (#4325224)
http://kotaku.com/5968569/fox-news-links-connecticut-shooting-to-violent-video-games

Fox News starts blaming the newfangled Video Games.
   2870. Gotham Dave Posted: December 14, 2012 at 08:54 PM (#4325233)
Funny, no black people have been impaled with an American flag here in Boston since (very roughly) 30 years ago.
Just wanted to clarify that that photo is not what it seems. The black man had been beaten by a racist mob, but the man holding him in that photo is trying to help him. The man with the flag (who was part of the mob) was just doing some kind of flag-waving color guard routine. Amazingly, this photograph serves more as a metaphor for its subject than a literal representation.
   2871. zenbitz Posted: December 14, 2012 at 09:28 PM (#4325241)
There's no evidence that the people arguing with GF have actually thought their position through. There's evidence that they're aghast at what he's saying, though. They're very aghast.

He's just making stipulations that assum its pretty hopeless when your primary metric of intellect is so flawed. e the conclusion. Some ouf his stipulations might be right,
   2872. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 14, 2012 at 09:37 PM (#4325244)
But wouldn't God have been there to protect the innocent 5-year-olds? Isn't He everywhere?

I had the same reaction after the tsunamis. I believe in tolerance, but don't ever say something like "God never closes a door without opening a window!" unless you really want an earful.


I tend to think of it as,

"God never closes a door to keep a shooter out without opening a window for him to climb in through."


You'll note that the vast majority of times that someone says something ####### stupid like Fischer and Huckabee above, it's ain't a Jew.
Not being a fan of that Chosen People stuff, or whatever other form of superiority is implied by the above, I figure it's in the numbers, baby. Put as many Jews as there are Christians on the planet and you'll hear an equal amount of unbelievably stupid stuff.

What say you all about magazine/clip size?
Limit it.

As for defending against FEMA coming to our doors, a larger clip isn't going to cut it, but a larger clip isn't relevant. It's being armed to the point of be able to deter a hypothetically rapacious but still democratic government; not being able to triumph over it through arms. I do think in a lot of our more civilized nations, it isn't the prospect of the citizenry bombing the capital in their F-22s that keeps the armed forces in easy check, it's that the citizenry can dig in and cause a fair amount of bloodshed before being bombed to bits.
   2873. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 14, 2012 at 09:48 PM (#4325250)
So I logged in to read this thread knowing it would be full of the stupid because of the shooting, and I must admit much of the conversation has been better than I expected. Of course Ray has surpassed himself though with the two dumbest things I have ever read on this site within a short space of time. The first I have to believe is performance art and so I will give it a pass (and others already mocked it):

As I said, white straight males are the class most discriminated against in America in the year 2012. The left has no sympathy for them. They're not part of any pet class. And so they're on the short end of all the social policies.


But I had to quote it again, because it is completely awesome. But wait ...

Some things you just can't prevent (like disease) or even effectively guard against. Crazy is one of them. There is a human nature to try to Do Something but I just can't see what action would be very effective to stop a situation like this.


Is even dumber (which I doubted was possible). Because disease is a great metaphor for mental illness. First of all mental illness is a disease you idiot. Second of all disease can't be prevented? What!?

Small Pox? Let's start with that, all that time and effort to fight against small pox was completely a waste of effort, right Ray? Flu shots, washing hands, sterilizing medical instruments, vaccinations NONE OF THAT PREVENTS DISEASE?

Are you a complete mouth breathing moron? Of course disease can be prevented, like Small Pox for example. Polio as common as it was? Weird how as society spent resources and technology improved we prevented MILLIONS OF CASES OF DISEASE. But Ray thinks nothing can be done about "crazy" (again, which is in fact a disease - look it up) so heck let's give up.

I rarely engage in personal attacks, but Ray I really hope the two statements about are in fact performance art, because anyone who says what you did above is in fact an idiot without compare and I am surprised you manage to dress yourself in the morning.
   2874. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 14, 2012 at 10:25 PM (#4325260)
For someone complaining of "performance art," you just provided a rousing example of it.

Nothing in Ray's comments suggested that vaccinations don't prevent disease. The point was that there aren't vaccines for all diseases and problems.

Unless there's a new vaccine against becoming mentally deranged, it's simply not possible to inoculate society against deranged people committing acts like the one that was committed today — unless, of course, liberals agree that we should be a lot less liberal when it comes to the rights (or "rights") of deranged people.
   2875. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 14, 2012 at 10:29 PM (#4325262)
Nothing in Ray's comments suggested that vaccinations don't prevent disease. The point was that there aren't vaccines for all diseases and problems.


He claimed it could not even be effectively guarded against. Just like disease can't be guarded against. Like all the diseases that can't be guarded against like small pox and polio and the flu and so on. It is the dumbest analogy ever.

He connected something that public health efforts has had a huge impact on (disease - and yes mental illness is still a disease) and then claimed nothing could be done about it (completely against the analogy he introduced).

   2876. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: December 14, 2012 at 10:34 PM (#4325264)
it's simply not possible to inoculate society against deranged people committing acts like the one that was committed today — unless, of course, liberals agree that we should be a lot less liberal when it comes to the rights (or "rights") of deranged people.


How do you know this? Are you omniscient? What Ray and you are saying is that you cannot conceive of a way, so why bother?
   2877. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 14, 2012 at 10:36 PM (#4325265)
The one thing I know for sure (agreeing with Carter's sarcasm here) is that the average handgun-toting citizen in a school/campus/theatre shooting incident is going to kill people inadvertently, and/or get shot by a cop. People just have no idea about these situations, unless they're veteran infantrymen. Heck, I have no idea about them; I've just read a lot about them and am applying a keen grasp of Murphy's Law.

You know this "for sure"? In my experience, people with CCW permits tend to take firearms more seriously than the average cop. Beyond that, the "get shot by a cop" part erroneously presumes that cops typically arrive within seconds. If that was true, there wouldn't be mass shootings in the first place.

It probably would deter the typical convenience-store robber if a big sign in the window said I HAVE A BIG GUN AND WILL SHOOT YOU WITH IT IF YOU ACT UP, though that might also drive away paying customers. The same sign will have no effect on a mass shooter. If anything he may see it as a challenge.

If the last part was true, how come these mass shooters almost always pick "gun-free" zones like schools — where they know they're highly unlikely to face resistance — rather than take up the "challenge" of assaulting a police precinct, military installation, etc.?
   2878. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: December 14, 2012 at 10:38 PM (#4325267)
You know this "for sure"?


Well, as much as you know for sure that it is impossible to "inoculate society against deranged people"
   2879. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 14, 2012 at 10:42 PM (#4325271)
How do you know this? Are you omniscient? What Ray and you are saying is that you cannot conceive of a way, so why bother?

LOL. Short of the Minority Report scenario being brought to market in a foolproof manner, it's all but impossible to prevent deranged people who are hellbent on killing people.

***
Well, as much as you know for sure that it is impossible to "inoculate society against deranged people"

Yes, I do know this for sure, as does anyone who has studied human history for more than five seconds.
   2880. Srul Itza Posted: December 14, 2012 at 10:46 PM (#4325274)
I rarely engage in personal attacks


Then you're missing the entire point of the internet.
   2881. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 14, 2012 at 10:52 PM (#4325277)
LOL. Short of the Minority Report scenario being brought to market in a foolproof manner, it's all but impossible to prevent deranged people who are hellbent on killing people.


And because it is impossible to completely eradicate it let's not do anything. "Hey there will always be some disease so why bother even trying to fight against malaria." (To use Ray's wonderful analogy).

Great plan Joe.
   2882. Manny Coon Posted: December 14, 2012 at 10:54 PM (#4325278)
What say you all about magazine/clip size?


I'm for limiting magazine size, it's not going to stop these guys, but it can limit the damage they do at least a little bit. They aren't really needed hunting, sport shooting or even home defense, really their only purpose is kill a lot of people.

high-powered rifles


I really dislike the use of this term in the discussion of both this and the Colorado shooting. .223 semi-automatics are neither high powered (they actually a relatively low powered) or assault rifles (select-fire, generally fully automatic or burst fire). These guns are modestly powered hunting and sport shooting rifles, which are still really dangerous, but not nearly as scary sounding. An fully automatic AK-47 is a high powered assault rifle.

video games


Obviously it's not video games as whole, people in Korea, Japan and Europe play of games too. Compared to other countries though, people like shooter games way more here than elsewhere. I don't think this game causes the violence though, but it is part of the larger culture that glorifies and normalizes the idea gun violence, and the types of people that do these shooting are often drawn to those types of games.
   2883. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: December 14, 2012 at 10:56 PM (#4325279)
Yes, I do know this for sure, as does anyone who has studied human history for more than five seconds.


I find this attitude from someone living in the 21st century astounding. In 1900, the idea of powered heavier than air flight was just as impossible. In 1950, the CEO of IBM figured the world of the future would need 5 computers. In 1986, Jonathon Frakes and LeVar Burton using touch screen computer terminals and portable pads that communicated with them was science fiction.

I know we can't inoculate society against deranged people now, but to say that because we can't, we shouldn't bother trying? That's ridiculous.
   2884. BDC Posted: December 14, 2012 at 10:57 PM (#4325280)
In my experience, people with CCW permits tend to take firearms more seriously than the average cop

Yes, I know, and they take courses like "Shoot/Don't-Shoot" that supposedly train them for impromptu combat in crowded areas. Seriousness about your gun does not matter a lot once the shooting starts.

how come these mass shooters almost always pick "gun-free" zones like schools

Because they are sick ####s who like to kill a lot of people, and there are lots of people around schools.

EDIT: I should have added that I don't think gun control helps much with school shootings (as I've said often enough upthread). I just draw the line at thinking that a bunch of armed teachers or parents or whoever is going to help such situations. It's my strong opinion that they'd make it worse.
   2885. Lassus Posted: December 14, 2012 at 11:01 PM (#4325281)
I know we can't inoculate society against deranged people now, but to say that because we can't, we shouldn't bother trying? That's ridiculous.

Conservatives are not anti-science, just anti-progress.
   2886. BDC Posted: December 14, 2012 at 11:07 PM (#4325284)
There is, in fact, an amazing, complex and well-developed debate about God's justice and the problem of evil, with multiple different positions clearly articulated within the Hebrew Scriptures

Indeed. One thing I wrestle mightily to get across to my World Lit classes is the complexity of the philosophy and the teaching stories in the Hebrew Bible. My favorite such story is the rape of Dinah: "Ye have troubled me to make me stink among the inhabitants of the land," says Jacob. "Should he deal with our sister as with an harlot?" say Simeon and Levi. The wonderful thing is that there is no good answer. Every time you read the story, you have to reflect on the values and emotions that get balanced between those two statements. And it's not even a story about God or faith or religious practices; it's terribly focused on ethics in this world.

The trouble I usually have is in getting students, who have a vague sense that the Bible must be all about how nice it is to have faith in God, to see that the Old Testament in particular is very often more about questions than easy answers. In their writing about the Book of Job last week, I still had students tell me that the "moral of the story is" trust in God and he will give you back your asses and your handmaidens tenfold, or whatever. Right right right, I think, but will you please read the actual content of the middle of the book?
   2887. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 14, 2012 at 11:09 PM (#4325286)
And because it is impossible to completely eradicate it let's not do anything. "Hey there will always be some disease so why bother even trying to fight against malaria." (To use Ray's wonderful analogy).

Great plan Joe.

OK, what are your ideas? You're not seriously claiming that adding one more gun law to the thousands that are already on the books would have prevented this, are you?

***
I find this attitude from someone living in the 20th century astounding. In 1900, the idea of powered heavier than air flight was just as impossible. In 1950, the CEO of IBM figured the world of the future would need 5 computers. In 1986, Jonathon Frakes and LeVar Burton using touch screen computer terminals and portable pads that communicated with them was science fiction.

I know we can't inoculate society against deranged people now, but to say that because we can't, we shouldn't bother trying? That's ridiculous.

Ah, so you don't actually have any ideas on how to inoculate modern society from deranged people; you just pedantically objected to my use of the word "impossible" because the sci-fi Minority Report scenario might become possible at some point in the future. OK.
   2888. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 14, 2012 at 11:12 PM (#4325288)
Conservatives are not anti-science, just anti-progress.

So the same liberals who hate drones and "stop and frisk" believe "progress" would involve the government not only having the ability to monitor all citizens 24/7/365, but the ability to monitor all citizens' thoughts 24/7/365. That's funny.
   2889. OCF Posted: December 14, 2012 at 11:13 PM (#4325289)
a bunch of armed teachers or

From what I've read of this story - there was an armed teacher. The shooter's mother. And the massacre was carried out with her weapons.

Of course, we don't know why she owned those weapons, and we won't know, since she's dead. Did she own them for protection? If so who was she protecting herself against? (1) Strangers? (2) Her ex-husband? (3) Her son?
   2890. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 11:16 PM (#4325290)
Not a banner day for the press today. Not only were there lots of erroneous reports broadcast/posted, etc. (wrong brother, wrong photo posted by many outlets, claims that Dad was shot dead, two shooters, what else am I missing?) but I cannot get over the number of statements I've heard made along these lines, "There are reports that XYZ, but thus far those have been unsubstantiated.'.
   2891. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 11:17 PM (#4325291)
Conservatives are not anti-science, just anti-progress.


No, they're pretty obviously anti-science.
   2892. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 14, 2012 at 11:18 PM (#4325292)
Really, the ONLY justification for these assault rifles and large magazines (other then the malicious intent to kill a lot of people quickly), is if you truly believe the delusion that we have to be prepared to one day fight off the oppressing might of the US military and/or UN, “Turner Diaries”-style.

I'd be astonished if there weren't a major correlation between assault rifle ownership and a deeply paranoid and hostile view about the many social and demographic changes that have taken place here over the past 50 years. The fact that both this year and in 2008 gun sales shot up significantly in the wake of the election certainly doesn't do much to dispel this notion.
   2893. Lassus Posted: December 14, 2012 at 11:25 PM (#4325296)
So the same liberals who hate drones and "stop and frisk" believe "progress" would involve the government not only having the ability to monitor all citizens 24/7/365, but the ability to monitor all citizens' thoughts 24/7/365. That's funny.

Do you ever stop, like, making crap up?

   2894. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 14, 2012 at 11:36 PM (#4325300)
OK, what are your ideas?


Start with treating gun violence like a health issue. Act like it is something that can be limited with the proper application of data and the scientific method and not like a political game that is played between two teams. Continue by treating mental health like the disease it is, one which causes a huge number of deaths each year through suicide and violence.

Money needs to be spent. It needs to be understood that this is going to be a long fight (like the worldwide fight against malaria), you don't up and quit with every reversal. The current problems are decades (more really) in the making, it is going to take a long time to fix the problem.

Some nations have dramatically lower rates of such deaths. Other nations have high rates. Rather than hurling numbers and playing political games while people die I would suggest the nation actually tries to address the issue with the data at hand.

you noted the current pathetic patchwork quilt of laws is better than nothing, but is a far cry from solving the problem, so no "adding one more law" is not going to solve the problem (though some laws might help).
   2895. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 14, 2012 at 11:38 PM (#4325302)
Conservatives are not anti-science, just anti-progress.


No, they're pretty obviously anti-science.


You crazy kids, they're both.
   2896. Manny Coon Posted: December 14, 2012 at 11:45 PM (#4325305)
From what I've read of this story - there was an armed teacher. The shooter's mother. And the massacre was carried out with her weapons.


If this is true (which we never seem to know with this story so far), this is another classic case of where the guns you own to protect yourself are much more likely to be used against you or your family.

One type of gun control that is common in other countries, is more strict rules for storage and transport. If this was the case of someone taking his parent's gun, perhaps more secure storage could prevented or limited the damage. The Oregon mall shooting was also with a stolen gun and there was a recent news story about a child who accidentally shot himself in his car seat after his dad left a gun laying around the back seat of the car.

These types of rules would work within the context of the second amendment, not infringe on owning sport, hunting or personal defense weapons and even if they don't prevent rampage style attacks would at least lead to less accidental shootings and crimes with stolen guns.
   2897. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 14, 2012 at 11:58 PM (#4325308)
Do you ever stop, like, making crap up?

Do you ever make a clear point? If not the ability to closely monitor people's mental health, what type of "progress" were you talking about when you said, "Conservatives are not anti-science, just anti-progress"?

***
Start with treating gun violence like a health issue. Act like it is something that can be limited with the proper application of data and the scientific method and not like a political game that is played between two teams. Continue by treating mental health like the disease it is, one which causes a huge number of deaths each year through suicide and violence.

This sounds like an acknowledgment that mental illness and the breakdown of the family are bigger problems than the Second Amendment. I approve.

Money needs to be spent. ...

I didn't see that one coming. (Ha ha.)

Some nations have dramatically lower rates of such deaths. Other nations have high rates. Rather than hurling numbers and playing political games while people die I would suggest the nation actually tries to address the issue with the data at hand.

If we're going with data-driven solutions, it sounds like you want a heavier police presence in inner cities and more aggressive detainment of the seriously mentally ill. I'm sold, but I'm not sure your fellow lefties will be as enthusiastic.
   2898. Dale Sams Posted: December 15, 2012 at 12:15 AM (#4325315)
"we have to do something...we have to do something..."

You want to do something?

1. Bring the troops home, all of them from Iraq and Afghanistan.
2. Cut our bases in half.
3. Reduce the military budget from five times second place to second place.
4. Stop the war on drugs.
5. Close Gitmo and release everyone who doesn't have enough evidence to stand trial, house the rest in Leavenworth.
6. Establish normal relations with Cuba.
7. Cut foreign aid by a huge amount.
8. Provide reasonable healthcare, not blowjob/tax healthcare.
9. Stop imprisoning more people than any other country.
10. Make more restrictive gun laws.
11. Stop the war on terror
12. ala Warren Beatty in 'Heaven Can Wait': "Let's be the good guys! Let the other countries make mistakes!"

There I fixed the country and got myself assasinated before my inaguration.
   2899. Lassus Posted: December 15, 2012 at 12:16 AM (#4325316)
If not the ability to closely monitor people's mental health, what type of "progress" were you talking about when you said, "Conservatives are not anti-science, just anti-progress"?

Understanding of the brain, the science of mental illness, the lack of stigmatization of schizophrenia, medicine, data of violent outbursts, etc. Try and ignore the black helicopters over your house and you might grasp what else besides citing a dystopian film might be involved, science-wise.


This sounds like an acknowledgment that mental illness and the breakdown of the family are bigger problems than the Second Amendment. I approve.

You're hopeless. "Breakdown of the family" was where in what you quoted? Making. Crap. Up.
   2900. hokieneer Posted: December 15, 2012 at 12:22 AM (#4325318)
What say you all about magazine/clip size?


I understand the arguments, even if I'm mostly agnostic towards a position on the matter.

In this particular case, didn't the shooter use 3 different firearms? I admit I stopped following the details early on because as mrams said, there was just a #### ton of speculating, but I could have swore that I heard he used a .223 cal rifle and 2 handguns. Limiting the mag size sounds great, but if someone has multiple firearms, in particular a rifle and a side arm, I just wonder how much damage is it going to limit? Plus the standard mag size on a standard 9mm glock is 15 rounds, and it's fairly easy and quick to swap mags. I'm talking 1-2 sec for a glock and it's ready to fire again.
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