Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Sunday, December 02, 2012

OTP December 2012 - Pushing G.O.P. to Negotiate, Obama Ends Giving In

Mr. Obama, scarred by failed negotiations in his first term and emboldened by a clear if close election to a second, has emerged as a different kind of negotiator in the past week or two, sticking to the liberal line and frustrating Republicans on the other side of the bargaining table.

Bitter Mouse Posted: December 02, 2012 at 11:15 PM | 6172 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 33 of 62 pages ‹ First  < 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 >  Last ›
   3201. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 17, 2012 at 08:34 AM (#4326492)
Damn, I was almost so proud of Joe in #3125 - apart from randomly referring to people as "lefties",

A while back, the liberals were complaining that I said "liberal" too much, so I tried to find some synonyms.

He really does an about face when he then suggests that more police and more prisons is the solution; you'd think someone harping on California's budget problems would realise incarcerating the tens of millions of possibly dangerous people is not a plausible idea.

I never said anything about locking up "tens of millions of possibly dangerous people." Rather, I talked about locking up actual dangerous people — i.e., the additional violent criminals who would be caught if there was a higher police presence in high-crime areas — while other would-be criminals presumably would be deterred if there were more police in the streets. People complain that the U.S. locks up too many people, but the reality is, the clearance rate for felonies in the U.S. is abysmal. In Chicago, only 36 percent of the ~18,000 homicides from 1980 to 2008 were cleared, and the clearance rates for other felonies are often worse.

Of course, I suppose when he came to the point where he realised the actual solution is preventative social work, with more resources to teachers, social works, making after-school programs more available (and government funded), making mental healthcare available (and typically, funded - people in real need of mental healthcare can rarely afford it), a social safety net that keeps people out of the "nothing left to lose" position, etc - well, perhaps it's a bridge too far.

I grew up two miles from one of the worst maximum-security prisons in New York. I've seen what prison does to families and what it's done to my hometown, and it would be great if prisons were unnecessary. But the above is little more than wishful thinking. There's simply no evidence that more teachers and more midnight-basketball leagues would put a big dent in the inner-city crime rate. The problem is that far too many boys and young men are growing up without a father or a father figure, and the government is incapable of mitigating this problem. (And even if the government was capable of such a Herculean task, it would be a long-term effort, so hiring more police and locking up violent offenders would still be the most prudent and effective course of action in the meantime.)
   3202. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 17, 2012 at 08:35 AM (#4326493)
Projecting crazy onto crazy and adding guns into the picture seems like a recipe for disaster. Which is exactly what happened.


This still doesn't tell me how, when, and to whom her crazy was supposed to have revealed itself, so as to have prevented the addition of guns to the picture. Keeping guns out of the hands of lunatics is great in theory, but it requires not only accurate diagnosis and appropriate documentation of the lunacy, but effective discrimination of which lunatics are likely to commit mass murder. Or in this case, which lunatics are likely to facilitate someone else's commission of mass murder through negligence.

Maybe I should have just said hindsight is 20-20.
   3203. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 17, 2012 at 08:44 AM (#4326494)
Two distinct issues: The right of an openly paranoid person to remain at large within the community; and the right of such a person to possess firearms. If a background check can't screen out people like the late Nancy Lanza, I'm not sure what purpose they're supposed to be serving. The bar for gun ownership should certainly be higher than merely not having been qualified for a certified funny farm.

I"m wondering about the devil in the details about how you determine if someone is too paranoid to own a gun. A "survivalist philosophy" is pretty common around these parts. I know plenty of people that have months worth of food, a dozen or more firearms, gallons of gas and generators, overly secured homes, etc. Hell I've heard Harvey's talk about his property, and he's right there with some of these preparations. To some people this could be rampant paranoia, to others it's just an exercise in being prepared for the worse. How do you accurately separate a potentially dangerous paranoid person, who otherwise has no mental illness, from some average John Doe who is a little paranoid of an economic collapse and skeptical of the guvment?


Well, one way might be to take a look at the size and nature of their private arsenal; how close they might be to their neighbors; and their record of interaction with the surrounding community. Obviously there's no one-size-fits-all answer, but at the very least there has to be some sort of warning flag when a person starts stockpiling weapons like Nancy Lanza did. Again, we're not talking about taking them away to a mental institution, just taking away their private arsenal of mass destruction.

---------------------------------------------------

So maybe Nancy Lanza was a bit of a loonie, but we shouldn't forget that she's not the one who shot up an elementary school. She was a victim here. I'm not exactly following the logical progression from her survivalist bent and irrational fears to the conclusion that she should not be allowed to possess firearms because her nerdy Aspergerish son might go off.

Great, so stockpiling weapons of mass destruction is okay, even when you've got a son in the house with acknowledged mental issues, just so long as you can appear to live a "normal" life on the surface? You're seriously saying that a person like that should be allowed to purchase semiautomatic Bushmaster rifles, semiautomatic Glock 9mm handguns, and enough ammunition to wipe out half the town?

This wasn't a case of a woman who just "liked guns", needed to "defend her house" (it was in a town where violent crime was virtually nonexistent), or "liked to shoot at targets for sport". This was a woman who was stockpiling the sort of weapons that no civilian could possibly have any legitimate use for.

---------------------------------------------------

And now, a collection of people spewing racial epithets because they pre-empted football with Obama's speech at the shooting memorial.


The University of North Alabama player that has the first tweet has been kicked off the team for it.

Yes, the Second Amendment should protect the right of people like this to buy a private arsenal, in order to protect himself against the government goon squads. There's no possible sign of mental illness in what he did---why, he's just a good ol' boy who likes his football.
   3204. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 17, 2012 at 08:59 AM (#4326498)
You're seriously saying that a person like that should be allowed to purchase semiautomatic Bushmaster rifles, semiautomatic Glock 9mm handguns, and enough ammunition to wipe out half the town?


Not at all. I'm simply asking how we (and by we I mean the people who sold her guns) were supposed to have known that she was "a person like that." Sorry, I thought I'd gone to fairly great lengths to be clear on that, but it doesn't seem to be coming across.

This wasn't a case of a woman who just "liked guns", needed to "defend her house" (it was in a town where violent crime was virtually nonexistent), or "liked to shoot at targets for sport". This was a woman who was stockpiling the sort of weapons that no civilian could possibly have any legitimate use for.


If you're saying that the stockpiling of weapons in and of itself should be the red flag, then fine, although I suspect that "people like that" would find ways around it pretty readily. But anyway, what's the threshold? If it's the kind of weapons that should be the red flag, then simply ban those kinds of weapons. Except that there seems to be wide disagreement about just what sort of weapons these were and what sorts of weapons have "legitimate" uses.

EDIT: Put it this way: if you're saying that nobody needs that many of those kinds of guns and that much ammo, then "that kind of person" doesn't enter into it, and my questions are moot; you're just left with the political problem of banning certain weapons, restritcing the size of personal arsenals, and limiting ammunition sales.
   3205. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 17, 2012 at 09:02 AM (#4326499)
Again, we're not talking about taking them away to a mental institution, just taking away their private arsenal of mass destruction.
Great, so stockpiling weapons of mass destruction is okay,

If Glocks and shotguns are "weapons of mass destruction," then Saddam Hussein did, indeed, possess weapons of mass destruction.
   3206. Lassus Posted: December 17, 2012 at 09:12 AM (#4326504)
Maybe not by you, but it has been by others (e.g., Sam in reply to SBB).

OK. So when I talked about outliers of attacks in response to Ray, you thought a direct response to me regarding outliers of gun owners was relevant somehow?

Next time, if you aren't going to answer and instead just throw up shrapnel and try and get away with that being an answer, don't bother.
   3207. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 17, 2012 at 09:22 AM (#4326507)
OK. So when I talked about outliers of attacks in response to Ray, you thought a direct response to me regarding outliers of gun owners was relevant somehow?

Next time, if you aren't going to answer and instead just throw up shrapnel and try and get away with that being an answer, don't bother.

Are you this angry and pedantic in real life, or is it just your shtick on the internet?
   3208. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 17, 2012 at 09:43 AM (#4326517)
how about that fiscal cliff talk this weekend? anyone notice the speaker this weekend?

courtesy wsj

For the first time, House Speaker John Boehner has eased up on his opposition to higher taxes with a proposal to raise tax rates on income over $1 million to 39.6% from 35%, the WSJ reports. Democrats dismissed the offer as too little, but the proposal could be a game changer because it clears the way for both sides “to engage in nitty-gritty haggling over exactly where the new income threshold might be set and what should comprise the spending cuts.”

Another concession: Boehner is throwing in a debt-ceiling increase – but it’s a one-time offer that would push any fight over the federal debt limit off for a year, the Washington Post reports.

In return for all this, Boehner wants at least $1 trillion in spending cuts to come in part from entitlement programs and he wants to slow the growth of Social Security benefits by revamping the formula for cost-of-living increases. As Politico says, Medicare cuts “are now the key to any fiscal cliff deal.”
   3209. Spahn Insane Posted: December 17, 2012 at 09:56 AM (#4326522)
Pushing a fight over the debt limit into 2014 sounds like an excellent midterm election year strategy. I endorse Boehner's plan in that regard. Of course, I'm a left-leaner. (I mean, sure, Obama took a hit in the last debt ceiling fight, but he's not running for office again. Perhaps Boehner's counting on public amnesia, putting August 2011 that much further in the rearview the next time the GOP decides to shoot hostages, and maybe he's right to count on that.)
   3210. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 17, 2012 at 10:01 AM (#4326524)
She was a victim here.

Only in the most technical sense. She appears to have been a dreadful mother, an opinion likely shared by a very high percentage of Newtownians. (Caveat: Sympathy for her goes back up to very high if she was mentally ill and therefore not fully responsible.)

That likely sounds harsh to a lot of ears, but it's not meant to. Objectively, she raised a mass murderer of six-year-olds who used the arsenal of high-powered weaponry she maintained that no decent or responsible citizen would have maintained. It's unfortuntate that she was among his victims, and matricide engenders a baseline of sympathy not absent here, but her victimhood pales in comparison to the murdered children and their parents.
   3211. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: December 17, 2012 at 10:08 AM (#4326529)
Only in the most technical sense. She appears to have been a dreadful mother, an opinion likely shared by a very high percentage of Newtownians.


So, being a dreadful mother means one is deserving of the death penalty?
   3212. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 17, 2012 at 10:09 AM (#4326530)
#3210 is absurd from start to finish. A person who gets shot in the face isn't a victim in "only the most technical sense," and I haven't seen a single quote that described Nancy Lanza as being a "dreadful mother."

It appears she showed horrendous judgment with regards to the possession and/or storage of firearms, but at this point, blaming this woman for having a mentally deranged son is not only premature but pathetic.
   3213. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 17, 2012 at 10:13 AM (#4326532)
So, being a dreadful mother means one is deserving of the death penalty?

No, but it means an adequate description of her requires more than merely the word "victim."

It appears she showed horrendous judgment with regards to the possession and/or storage of firearms, but at this point, blaming this woman for having a mentally deranged son is not only premature but pathetic.

There goes Joe again, apologizing for the middle class white person while injecting into the discussion and bloviating about the "underclass," which has nothing to do with this atrocity.

She raised him and bears the responsibility for doing a very poor job.(*) Nor is it clear that he was "mentally deranged," other than by the fallacious reasoning that a mass murderer is by definition mentally deranged. (And, of course, if he was in fact "mentally deranged," she deserves the community's scorn for keeping an arsenal of attack weaponry in her home, and training him in gun use.)

(*) Again, caveats re additional information.
   3214. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 17, 2012 at 10:28 AM (#4326539)
There goes Joe again, apologizing for the middle class white person while injecting into the discussion and bloviating about the "underclass," which has nothing to do with this atrocity.

She raised him and bears the responsibility for doing a very poor job.(*) Nor is it clear that he was "mentally deranged," other than by the fallacious reasoning that a mass murderer is by definition mentally deranged.

Utter garbage. You have no idea how this woman raised this kid. I haven't seen a single derogatory comment about the mother thus far, while source after source has described the shooter as clearly mentally ill. (And he was 20 years old, so the mother probably couldn't have committed him even if she wanted to.)

Your last two comments might set a new internet record for packing the most foolishness into two comments. First, a person who gets shot in the face is a victim "[o]nly in the most technical sense." Then, you tell us it's not clear that a person who storms into an elementary school and kills 26 people is mentally deranged. Quite a show you're putting on here.
   3215. Lassus Posted: December 17, 2012 at 10:32 AM (#4326543)
Are you this angry and pedantic in real life, or is it just your shtick on the internet?

Angrier.

I hope this isn't a serious post, because if the best you can do is charge me with a non-present rage instead of admitting your tack failed, that's doubling down on your lack of honest discussion.

   3216. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 17, 2012 at 10:41 AM (#4326550)
Angrier.

Ha ha. Those Central New York winters will do that to a person.

EDIT: Ah, I see you couldn't stick to the simple, funny reply and had to go Full Lassus. Oh, well.

(And for the record, I'm still not sure of your complaint. In #3170, you quoted Ray as saying, "... It seems bizarre to focus on guns." You replied with, "Yes, why bother with raw cumulative data when conditionals and outliers are so much more telling? ..." And then I replied to that with a comment about the "raw cumulative data" on guns and gun owners.)
   3217. Lassus Posted: December 17, 2012 at 10:46 AM (#4326554)
EDIT: Ah, I see you couldn't stick to the simple, funny reply and had to go Full Lassus. Oh, well.

And you still can't answer, I see. Or admit you never meant to.
   3218. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 17, 2012 at 10:48 AM (#4326557)
cercopithecus aethiops (#3204),

It's a dual problem, and a particularly deadly combination.

---A woman with a disturbed son who, for some reason known only to God, seemed compelled to turn her own house into a private arsenal.

---The easy availability of weapons that no civilian could possible have any legitimate need for.

Either of those factors should set off an enormous red flag, but in combination we're just asking for more repeat performances of tragedies like Newtown. We need to get rid of civilian access to weapons capable of this type of instant mass death, and we need to be far more vigilant about the sort of people who can obtain guns.

---------------------------------------------------

Again, we're not talking about taking them away to a mental institution, just taking away their private arsenal of mass destruction.

Great, so stockpiling weapons of mass destruction is okay,


If Glocks and shotguns are "weapons of mass destruction," then Saddam Hussein did, indeed, possess weapons of mass destruction.


When a private individual can kill 28 people within a matter of minutes, then yes, that's mass destruction. What sort of wording would you find more appropriate within the context of a small town? Selected targeting of carefully chosen victims?
   3219. BDC Posted: December 17, 2012 at 10:49 AM (#4326558)
I don't know the facts of the case, but if one had an unpredictable mentally-ill son, one might not want to keep tons of firearms around the house. It's probably just me, though, there's some smart move there I'm not seeing.
   3220. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 17, 2012 at 10:49 AM (#4326559)
You have no idea how this woman raised this kid.

I have plenty of idea, starting with the fact that he killed a schoolful of children. Plenty of Aspergers kids don't. She also kept an arsenal of assault weaponry around her home -- an absurdly poor act of anti-citizenry.

So parents are no longer influences on how kids turn out? That's absurd.

First, a person who gets shot in the face is a victim "[o]nly in the most technical sense."

She got shot with her own ridiculous weaponry. Live by the gun .... Her victimhood pales in comparison with the actual victims of her acts.
   3221. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 17, 2012 at 10:51 AM (#4326561)
There's simply no evidence that more teachers...would put a big dent in the inner-city crime rate.


Wrong.

The money quote, in case people don't want to read the whole thing:
Contrary to skeptics of educational resource investment and in support of educational
resource proponents, we find significant evidence that states and schools with higher
teacher/student ratios produce adults who face lower incarceration risks. We also find that
states that invest more in teacher/student ratios also typically spend more on social welfare
programs generally and that these factors co-vary and are both associated with reduced
adult incarceration rates. Hence, our findings are largely consistent with those theories of
crime (Matza 1964; Hagan 1991; Sampson and Laub 1993) that emphasize the malleability
of criminal propensity. In his influential work on delinquency and drift, Matza (1964:28)
argues that delinquents are not locked into crime in an absolute way, but rather exist in a
“limbo between convention and crime, responding in turn to the demands of each, flirting
now with one, now the other….” In line with our results, such reasoning suggests that it
may well be easier for juveniles to “drift” into crime when they are educated in schools
that devote fewer resources to classroom instruction or live in states that invest less in
public welfare more generally. -Arum and LaFree, 2008
   3222. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 17, 2012 at 10:55 AM (#4326563)
This is what we're up against. From today's Washington Post:

Gun-rights advocates feeling heat after school shooting

These are the people who see guns as an answer to the problem of violence, not the problem itself. They worry that their Second Amendment rights will be taken away. Challenged by those who see any gun as an instrument of destruction, they defend their belief that guns are beneficial. Harder still is to explain the allure of weapons like the .223-caliber Bushmaster, a military-style semiautomatic rifle that a some want banned.

“I could ask you why should anyone want a Ferrari?” Van Cleave said Sunday. “[Bushmasters] are absolutely a blast to shoot with. They’re fast. They’re accurate.”

And there’s no denying that their fearsome, combat-ready appearance adds to their appeal, he said.

“Guns are fun, and some of them are much more cool than others. It’s just like we have television sets that look cool, and others are much more boxy,” Van Cleave said.


EDIT: I should have noted that "Van Cleave" is Philip Van Cleave, who heads the "Virginia Citizens Defense League."




   3223. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 17, 2012 at 10:56 AM (#4326564)
---The easy availability of weapons that no civilian could possible have any legitimate need for.

No civilian could possibly have legitimate need for a handgun or shotgun? In what fantasy world do these civilians live?

When a private individual can kill 28 people within a matter of minutes, then yes, that's mass destruction. What sort of wording would you find more appropriate within the context of a small town? Selected targeting of carefully chosen victims?

How about some wording that isn't absurd hyperbole? It's comical to watch the same people who insisted that Benghazi was being shamelessly politicized now use the deaths of school kids to claim that Glocks and shotguns are "weapons of mass destruction."
   3224. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 17, 2012 at 10:59 AM (#4326566)
No civilian could possibly have legitimate need for a handgun or shotgun? In what fantasy world do these civilians live?

The one where people actually know how to comprehend what they read?
   3225. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:01 AM (#4326568)
“[Bushmasters] are absolutely a blast to shoot with. They’re fast. They’re accurate.”

And while I'm shooting they permit me the luxury of forgetting about my profound inadequacies and my inability to maintain an erection with my two-inch penis!!!
   3226. zonk Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:04 AM (#4326569)
I don't agree with SBB's 3210 --

So please apply the standard caveats...

However, I do think it's worth noting that by all accounts - she had a son that had significant issues with social interaction that (chicken or egg, your choice) manifested as or were symptoms of mental illness.

I don't think it's a stretch or requires any sort of psychological background to say that 'doomsday prepping' and stockpiling weaponry as a part of that... condition? fear? whatever... most certainly wasn't a good environment/conducive for a son with such problems.

That doesn't mean she was a 'bad mother', nor does it mean by any stretch her death is any more 'justified' or excused or less a tragedy.

I guess I'm just saying that I'm both fascinated and horrified by the degree to which "fear" seems to have this way of snowballing into this out of control sort of tragedy in our country.

What really puzzles me is how people seem to think it's such a new phenomenon -- you don't have to look too far to find social commentators that might say that the popularity of The Walking Dead is symptomatic of this sort of 'end times' fear... but then - this was true 40 years ago when Romero's original zombie craze sprouted... it was also true in the 50s and 60s, when nuclear apocalyptic fiction was fashionable in literature and cinema.

If you're a bit of a post-apocalyptic/apocalyptic lit buff, you know this sort of thing goes back even further -- Shelley, Poe, Wells, and others popularized the concept before we even had TV or film.

Beyond literature and the arts as a reflection of society...

Religion is rife with apocalyptic visions -- hell, there isn't a religion on earth that doesn't have end-times tropes and when you strip away the mythology of them, that's really what they're all about... the end of humanity - or at least, an individual's little slice of it - and making preparations for that. Doomsday cults likewise have a rich and long history - various cults and leaders were predicting end-times going back centuries.

History has brought us wave after wave of nihilism rooted in the fear that this little species of ours is doomed -- the French and Germans after WWI, the flagellation movement during the black death, etc.

Gold buggery, imminent economic collapse - these, too, are nothing new.

Politically - whether it's fringes on the left talking 9/11 conspiracy theories, fears that the PATRIOT Act would be used for mass civil repression or fringes on the right stockpiling arms and ammo, talking about FEMA camps and death panels...

What is it about our little species that drives people into the arms of this 'fear' that everything's about to fall apart?

I'm not advocating docile acceptance of changes we - individually - don't like nor a rejection of religion/faith nor anything like that... I'm just saying it seems that everyone could regularly use a little metaphysical Cher smacking us and saying 'Snap out of it!' now and again.


   3227. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:05 AM (#4326572)
Wrong.

The money quote, in case people don't want to read the whole thing:

Please. When it comes to schools, D.C., Chicago, New York, and L.A. are already spending the most money per capita, and they're getting poor results both educationally and behaviorally. Aside from some minor gains at the margins, no amount of money can make up for the lack of male role models in the homes of millions of at-risk boys and young men.
   3228. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:07 AM (#4326573)
---The easy availability of weapons that no civilian could possible have any legitimate need for.

No civilian could possibly have legitimate need for a handgun or shotgun? In what fantasy world do these civilians live?


I was talking about Bushmasters and Glucks, not ordinary hunting rifles, shotguns, or pistols. Perhaps for a change you might try reading before reacting.

When a private individual can kill 28 people within a matter of minutes, then yes, that's mass destruction. What sort of wording would you find more appropriate within the context of a small town? Selected targeting of carefully chosen victims?

How about some wording that isn't absurd hyperbole? It's comical to watch the same people who insisted that Benghazi was being shamelessly politicized now use the deaths of school kids to claim that a shotgun is a "weapon of mass destruction."


So the commercial model of an M-16 is now considered a "shotgun"? Do tell.
   3229. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:08 AM (#4326574)
“[Bushmasters] are absolutely a blast to shoot with. They’re fast. They’re accurate.”


You know what I enjoy? Riding motorcycles. Really, really fast. As fast as I can. To the point where I'm right on the edge of control of the machine. It's a blast. This powerful, performance tuned machine, at your whim as you fly around corners and lean into it. It's a fantastic rush.

You know where I do riding like that? Track days. Then I ride my bike back home, and more or less obey all the traffic rules, after track day.

If you want the rush of shooting a big gun, send you kids to a zip line park and go to the range and shoot one. Then put it away and go back to normal society after the rush.
   3230. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:10 AM (#4326576)
Please. When it comes to schools, D.C., Chicago, New York, and L.A. are already spending the most money per capita, and they're getting poor results both educationally and behaviorally. No amount of money can make up for the lack of male role models in the homes of millions of at-risk boys and young men.

Hey everyone, take no heed that the son of a white, suburban gun nut just murdered a couple classrooms of six-year-olds, Joe wants to talk about inner-city minorities and the underclass!!!!!
   3231. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:11 AM (#4326577)
What really puzzles me is how people seem to think it's such a new phenomenon -- you don't have to look too far to find social commentators that might say that the popularity of The Walking Dead is symptomatic of this sort of 'end times' fear... but then - this was true 40 years ago when Romero's original zombie craze sprouted... it was also true in the 50s and 60s, when nuclear apocalyptic fiction was fashionable in literature and cinema.


Thematically the modern zombie genre has little in common with Romero's work.
   3232. Lassus Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:11 AM (#4326578)
It's comical to watch the same people

This is getting old.
   3233. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:14 AM (#4326581)
I do think it's worth noting that by all accounts - she had a son that had significant issues with social interaction that (chicken or egg, your choice) manifested as or were symptoms of mental illness.

I don't think it's a stretch or requires any sort of psychological background to say that 'doomsday prepping' and stockpiling weaponry as a part of that... condition? fear? whatever... most certainly wasn't a good environment/conducive for a son with such problems.

That doesn't mean she was a 'bad mother', nor does it mean by any stretch her death is any more 'justified' or excused or less a tragedy.


Of course Nancy Lanza's death was tragic, and hardly "justified". And without that private arsenal that the NRA and its parrots seem to find perfectly "cool" and normal, she wouldn't particularly have stood out in a crowd. Her friends at the bar she frequented attested to both sides of her rather dual personality, and one of those sides was clearly loving and thoughtful. Too bad that wasn't all that there was to her makeup.

But when you combine her paranoid vision of the world with a seriously disturbed son, and with a house full of firearms and ammunition, you're setting the stage for what happened on Friday, even if the mathematical odds against it are minute.
   3234. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:17 AM (#4326582)
It's comical to watch the same people blame the schools for getting "poor results ... behaviorally," and at the same time hold that the mother of a mass murderer is entirely without influence.
   3235. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:18 AM (#4326583)
I was talking about Bushmasters and Glucks, not ordinary hunting rifles, shotguns, or pistols. Perhaps for a change you might try reading before reacting.

Yes, I had read it. The idea that a Glock is unfit for civilian hands is ridiculous.

***
Hey everyone, take no heed that the son of a white, suburban gun nut just murdered a couple classrooms of six-year-olds, Joe wants to talk about inner-city minorities and the underclass!!!!!

No, we can talk about Adam Lanza all you want, but pretending that one more gun law would have stopped him is beyond dumb.
   3236. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:21 AM (#4326587)
It's comical to watch the same people blame the schools for getting "poor results ... behaviorally," and at the same time hold the mother of a mass murderer entirely without influence.

Better not use terms like "mass murderer" around Joe, unless you want to bring up comparisons to Saddam Hussein and Hiroshima.
   3237. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:23 AM (#4326589)
Well logged into the FB account and that was a mistake. It has gone from a discussion about guns to posts about this happening because we don't allow GOD ins out schools. We are truly doomed.
   3238. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:25 AM (#4326591)
I was talking about Bushmasters and Glucks, not ordinary hunting rifles, shotguns, or pistols. Perhaps for a change you might try reading before reacting.

Yes, I had read it.


Then what was the point in pretending I'd said "shotguns"?

The idea that a Glock is unfit for civilian hands is ridiculous.

Such use being what? Really cool target practice?

And what about Bushmasters? Are they also legitimate civilian weapons? For what purpose?

   3239. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:27 AM (#4326593)
No, we can talk about Adam Lanza all you want, but pretending that one more gun law will stop people like him is beyond dumb.

Without those types of weapons he may (*) have done what he did, but his death toll wouldn't have been nearly as high.

(*) My educated and rational hunch is that without the ability to cause showy, apocalyptic levels of carnage, he quite likely wouldn't have bothered, just as al-Qaeda doesn't bother with mundane acts of terror here -- bus bombings and the like. Thus, the assault weaponry in fact serves as the animating mechanism of the atrocity.
   3240. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:27 AM (#4326594)
Such use being what? Really cool target practice?

It's kind of funny watching a resident of Washington, D.C., formerly the murder capital of the country, pretend that no civilian could ever possibly need a handgun for self-defense.
   3241. hokieneer Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:31 AM (#4326598)
Well, one way might be to take a look at the size and nature of their private arsenal; how close they might be to their neighbors; and their record of interaction with the surrounding community. Obviously there's no one-size-fits-all answer, but at the very least there has to be some sort of warning flag when a person starts stockpiling weapons like Nancy Lanza did. Again, we're not talking about taking them away to a mental institution, just taking away their private arsenal of mass destruction.


From this article:

Police disclosed that the 52-year-old had five legally registered guns


From what we know she had a .223 semi-auto, 2 handguns, and a shotgun. That constitutes a private arsenal? Based on your criteria, I say there is at least 40-50 million Americans who are too "paranoid" too own firearms.


I was talking about Bushmasters and Glucks, not ordinary hunting rifles, shotguns, or pistols. Perhaps for a change you might try reading before reacting.


The Bustmaster .223 is almost exactly the same gun as this: Ruger mini-14, the only difference is appearance. Actually from reading some reviews this weekend, it appears the mini-14 is actually a more reliable gun.

EDIT: One of those Andy quotes was in response to me, one was in response to Joe. Probably should have separated into 2 posts myself.
   3242. hokieneer Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:32 AM (#4326602)
Well logged into the FB account and that was a mistake. It has gone from a discussion about guns to posts about this happening because we don't allow GOD ins out schools. We are truly doomed.


That was happening by Saturday morning on mine and my wife's FB. It's not an opinion I care to keep seeing.
   3243. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:35 AM (#4326605)
Based on your criteria, I say there is at least 40-50 million Americans who are too "paranoid" too own firearms.

That seems about right. It's only 1/6 of the country, and the country has a profoundly sturdy paranoid streak.
   3244. Lassus Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:36 AM (#4326607)
From what we know she had a .223 semi-auto, 2 handguns, and a shotgun. That constitutes a private arsenal?

I'll admit this doesn't seem like an arsenal, in the literal definition of the word. Seems a little extensive for one person.
   3245. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:39 AM (#4326611)
house full of firearms


can we set the goalposts on what a 'house full' of firearms is, or what is an 'arsenal.'

   3246. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:40 AM (#4326612)
She may have had unregistered guns, too -- not that I'm at all hesitant to call what she had an "arsenal."
   3247. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:45 AM (#4326616)
The idea that a Glock is unfit for civilian hands is ridiculous.

Such use being what? Really cool target practice?

It's kind of funny watching a resident of Washington, D.C., formerly the murder capital of the country, pretend that no civilian could ever possibly need a handgun for self-defense.


Once again the conflation of "handgun for self-defense" with a semi-automatic handgun, as if I've called for the outlawing of all pistols.
   3248. tshipman Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:48 AM (#4326618)
For the first time, House Speaker John Boehner has eased up on his opposition to higher taxes with a proposal to raise tax rates on income over $1 million to 39.6% from 35%, the WSJ reports. Democrats dismissed the offer as too little, but the proposal could be a game changer because it clears the way for both sides “to engage in nitty-gritty haggling over exactly where the new income threshold might be set and what should comprise the spending cuts.”

Another concession: Boehner is throwing in a debt-ceiling increase – but it’s a one-time offer that would push any fight over the federal debt limit off for a year, the Washington Post reports.

In return for all this, Boehner wants at least $1 trillion in spending cuts to come in part from entitlement programs and he wants to slow the growth of Social Security benefits by revamping the formula for cost-of-living increases. As Politico says, Medicare cuts “are now the key to any fiscal cliff deal.”


First of all: Thanks for posting this, Harveys. I hadn't seen it before.

Secondly, it's interesting how this offer reflects the changing power balance from the election last year. Last year, the House could have extended the Bush Tax cuts in perpetuity with this offer. This year it's a second offer in a negotiation. The conventional wisdom had been that the compromise point would become the percentage, that they would settle on 37 or 38%. It's interesting that Boehner is offering the higher rate, but at a different inflection point. I wonder if the final balance will be the full 39.6%, but on incomes over 500k.

Finally, I don't believe Obama settles on anything w/r/t the debt ceiling, and good for him to finally show a spine on it.
   3249. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:49 AM (#4326619)
I own five firearms, a rifle (hunting), two shotguns (for two different hunting purposes) and two pistols, one was a recent gift. How would this possibly be described as 'extensive'. Compared to non-gun owners, perhaps.

Is my fishing tackle extensive, I have 7 rods and 5 reels.

She may have thought the world was crashing before our eyes, but truth be told, there's nothing unusual (based on what has been reported thus far) or particularly remarkable about the five guns she had registered.
   3250. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:49 AM (#4326620)
I'll admit this doesn't seem like an arsenal, in the literal definition of the word. Seems a little extensive for one person.


Depends on how many rounds she was hoarding per weapon, and how much use any given weapon got. If there's a mom with two boys and one of them hunts deer and rabbit, then a .223 and shotgun with reasonable supplies of ammo isn't an 'arsenal.' But if the family were not hunters then the .223 is excessive; there's no real need for that gun outside of deer hunting that I can think of. And if they're stockpiling ammo, then the same number of guns that wasn't an 'arsenal' before becomes totes cray cray arsenal.

Context is everything.
   3251. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:51 AM (#4326623)
From what we know she had a .223 semi-auto, 2 handguns, and a shotgun. That constitutes a private arsenal?

When that "collection" of firearms is capable of perpetrating one of the most deadly mass murders in the history of our country within a matter of minutes, then pardon me if I don't wish to get bogged down in nomenclature.

Let's put it this way: Whether you want to call it an arsenal or just a cool collection of conversational pieces, it had no place in that woman's private possession. I would hope we might at least all agree with that.
   3252. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:52 AM (#4326624)
The guy had enough ammo and weaponry to single-handedly take out a Vietcong village BITD.
   3253. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:54 AM (#4326629)
Occasionally my habot of reading posts before the author results in great surprise. #3212 an #3214 I agree with.

We may find out terrible parenting was involved. We may find out many things. But right now.
   3254. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:58 AM (#4326635)
And if they're stockpiling ammo, then the same number of guns that wasn't an 'arsenal' before becomes totes cray cray arsenal.

You know what's "totes cray cray"? Authoring a comment that includes the phrase "totes cray cray."

Beyond that, how would "stockpiling ammo" change the narrative? A person can only carry so much, so what difference would it make if there was one case or six cases back at their house?
   3255. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:58 AM (#4326636)
Please. When it comes to schools, D.C., Chicago, New York, and L.A. are already spending the most money per capita, and they're getting poor results both educationally and behaviorally.


1) You didn't posit a lack of correlation between per-capita spending on students and student life outcomes. You posited a lack of correlation between the number of teachers and student life outcomes - a totally separate thing.

2) Unadjusted per-capita spending isn't a good measure to assess what you're trying to assess, given the much higher cost of living in those large (and relatively affluent) urban environments.
   3256. Chicago Joe Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:59 AM (#4326637)
In Chicago, only 36 percent of the ~18,000 homicides from 1980 to 2008 were cleared,


Joe, where did you get this number?
   3257. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:01 PM (#4326641)
The guy was on psychiatric drugs, just like most other recent mass murderers.

This just in (unrelated): Gérard Depardieu shrugs France over high taxes

This is his open letter to the French PM, who had called him pathetic for not wanting to continue to pay 85% income tax. The translation isn't great.

You say “pathetic”? As it is pathetic.

I was born in 1948, I started working at the age of 14 years as a printer, then as a warehouseman as dramatic artist. I always paid my taxes regardless of the rate under all governments.

At no time, I have failed in my duties. Historical films I participated reflect my love of France and its history.

Most illustrious characters that were expatriates me or left the country.

I unfortunately have nothing more to do here, but I continue to love the French public and with whom I shared so many emotions, I’m leaving because you consider that success, creativity, talent, actually The difference must be punished.

I do not ask to be approved, I could at least be respected.

All those who left France were not insulted as I am.

I do not have to justify the reasons for my choice, which are numerous and intimate.

I leave after paying, in 2012, 85% tax on my income. But I keep in mind that France was beautiful and I hope will remain.

I give you my passport and Social Security, which I’ve never used. We no longer the same country, I’m a true European, a citizen of the world, as my father has always taught.

I find pathetic the hard justice against my son William judged by judges who condemned any kid to three years in prison for two grams of heroin, when so many others escaped prison for acts otherwise more serious.

I do not blame all those cholesterol, hypertension, diabetes, or too much alcohol or those who sleep on their scooter: I’m one of them as your expensive media like both the repeat.

I never killed anybody, I do not think unworthy, I paid 145 million tax in forty-five years, I have 80 people working in companies that were created for them and which are managed by them.

I am not to complain or to brag, but I refuse the word “pathetic”.

Who are you to judge me so I ask you Mr. Ayrault, Prime Minister Mr. Holland, I ask you, who are you? Despite my excesses, my appetite and my love life, I am a free being, sir, and I’ll be polite.

Gérard Depardieu
   3258. zonk Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:01 PM (#4326642)
I am by no means well-versed in firearms -

But the common thread I keep reading seems to come down to these 'extended capacity' magazines... I presume that one can have a 'Glock' or a Bushmaster that has what amounts to a standard clip, which I'm guessing means it has a much more limited capacity -- or can fit them with 'extended' clips, which have a higher capacity.

My understanding is that Nancy Lanza had these weapons outfitted with the 'extended clip's...

What's the rationale for such things being legal?

Why is it a controversial point to say that you can have whatever sort of firearm you wish - but we'll have civilian limitations on the capacity they can hold?

If we accept that we can't stop madmen from shooting innocents, isn't reasonable to say that we will ensure such madmen (and non-dangerous, non-madmen) will be limited to arms that provide a much more limited capacity, thus lowering the body counts when such madmen do what they do?

My understanding is that the Gabby Giffords shooter had a conventional handgun with conventional capacity, whereas both the Aurora and Newtown shooters had weapons with extended clips...

Rather than limiting types of guns available - why can't we limit capacity, regardless of type?

   3259. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:02 PM (#4326643)
Beyond that, how would "stockpiling ammo" change the narrative? A person can only carry so much, so what difference would it make if there was one case or six cases back at their house?

It makes a lot of difference is assessing that person's mental state, unless you think it's also perfectly normal for a woman living in suburban Connecticut to keep enough ammunition on hand to wipe out half the town.
   3260. bobm Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:04 PM (#4326644)
The shooter's mother is plainly an accessory here, even if unwittingly.

The New York Post
Mother shared her gun obsession with school shooter Adam Lanza
By FRANK ROSARIO, PEDRO OLIVEIRA JR. and DAN MacLEOD

Last Updated: 11:05 AM, December 16, 2012 ...

Weapon-loving Nancy Lanza regularly took her awkward loner-son Adam to shooting ranges, where the painfully shy boy — who suffered from the autism-related Asperger’s syndrome — blasted away targets using his mom’s small arsenal of guns.

“She’d take them to the range a lot . . . Nancy was an enthusiast — so much so that she wanted to pass it on to her kids,” said her former landscaper and occasional drinking buddy Dan Holmes.

“Whenever I finished work and went inside to chitchat, she spoke often about her fascination with firearms. Nancy had an extensive gun collection, and she was really quite proud of it.” ...

The revelations came amid other developments in the shocking tragedy.
* Adam tried to buy a rifle three days before the attack from a Dick’s Sporting Goods store in Danbury, Conn., but was turned away, employees confirmed.The madman was rebuffed because he refused to follow the mandatory waiting period or undergo a background check, NBC News reported. ...

* More details emerged about Adam’s diagnosis of Asperger’s syndrome, a mild form of autism characterized by socially awkward behavior.“[Nancy] would often talk about her son having social issues. She told me he was a brilliant kid . . . but that he was very awkward,” Holmes said. ...

Autism expert Nancy Alspaugh-Jackson said violent tendencies toward others are not commonly associated with Asperger’s.But parents still should not let them use firearms, she said.“Any child with a neurological or psychological disorder should not live in a house with access to guns,” said Alspaugh-Jackson, the executive director of California-based Autism Care and Treatment. “That is, to me, totally irresponsible.”

Marsha Lanza said Nancy pulled her son out of public school because she was unhappy with the school’s plans for his education, ABC reported.
   3261. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:05 PM (#4326646)
I am by no means well-versed in firearms -

But the common thread I keep reading seems to come down to these 'extended capacity' magazines... I presume that one can have a 'Glock' or a Bushmaster that has what amounts to a standard clip, which I'm guessing means it has a much more limited capacity -- or can fit them with 'extended' clips, which have a higher capacity.

My understanding is that Nancy Lanza had these weapons outfitted with the 'extended clip's...

What's the rationale for such things being legal?


See the quote by Philip Van Cleave of the "Virginia Citizens Defense League" in #3222, if you want to get a pretty good idea of the underlying rationale.
   3262. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:06 PM (#4326647)
When that "collection" of firearms is capable of perpetrating one of the most deadly mass murders in the history of our country within a matter of minutes, then pardon me if I don't wish to get bogged down in nomenclature.

Let's put it this way: Whether you want to call it an arsenal or just a cool collection of conversational pieces, it had no place in that woman's private possession. I would hope we might at least all agree with that.

At some point, Andy's going to realize that a single gun plus a backpack full of these would have been just as deadly, and he's going to feel silly for pretending that five guns constitutes a "private arsenal" of "weapons of mass destruction."
   3263. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:10 PM (#4326649)
Autism expert Nancy Alspaugh-Jackson said violent tendencies toward others are not commonly associated with Asperger’s.

Bu, bu, bu, but Joe Kehoskie told us the kid was "mentally deranged"!!!

.“Any child with a neurological or psychological disorder should not live in a house with access to guns,” said Alspaugh-Jackson, the executive director of California-based Autism Care and Treatment. “That is, to me, totally irresponsible.”

Self-evident. And a parent that irresponsible is a poor parent. As noted.

Marsha Lanza said Nancy pulled her son out of public school because she was unhappy with the school’s plans for his education, ABC reported.

TBD, but good chance (a) ideology lie behind that choice; and (b) it was not salutary to his development.


   3264. Lassus Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:10 PM (#4326650)
I own five firearms, a rifle (hunting), two shotguns (for two different hunting purposes) and two pistols, one was a recent gift. How would this possibly be described as 'extensive'.

Well, that's three out of five guns for hunting, so even if I consider one non-hunting handgun sufficient, it's difficult to consider two 'extensive'.

I'm not sure, however, how much hunting Ms. Lanza was doing with her five guns. I'm going to guess at this point, zero. In such a case, with no hunting involved, yes, I'd consider that somewhat extensive. If your own ownership is not, do you think her five is equal to your five on that scale, or no?
   3265. SteveF Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:15 PM (#4326655)
Rather than limiting types of guns available - why can't we limit capacity, regardless of type?


States do regulate the size of clips/magazines, but obviously it varies by state. I think the limit in most lefty states is 10 rounds, while most of the rightier states have no limits.
   3266. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:15 PM (#4326656)
Bu, bu, bu, but Joe Kehoskie told us the kid was "mentally deranged"!!!

Right, it's totally impossible Lanza's mental state had deteriorated. Instead, we should trust a bunch of people diagnosing a dead kid based on some media reports.

***
Joe, where did you get this number?

There's a link in the sentence you quoted.
   3267. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:16 PM (#4326658)
In Chicago, only 36 percent of the ~18,000 homicides from 1980 to 2008 were cleared,


For some more recent numbers:

There were 433 murders in Chicago in 2011, and of those 128 (29.5%) were cleared in 2011. 86 murders from 1991-2010 were also cleared in 2011. Link.

There were 436 murders in Chicago in 2010, and of those 124 (28.4%) were cleared in 2010. 93 murders from 1991-2009 were also cleared in 2011. Link.

There were 459 murders in Chicago in 2009, and of those 140 (30.5%) were cleared in 2009. 89 murders from 1991-2009 were also cleared in 2009. Link.

Statistics for older years are available here. On the whole, homicides in Chicago have decreased fairly steadily since 1994, though 2012 is up a bit from the years preceding it.
   3268. zonk Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:18 PM (#4326660)
I am by no means well-versed in firearms -

But the common thread I keep reading seems to come down to these 'extended capacity' magazines... I presume that one can have a 'Glock' or a Bushmaster that has what amounts to a standard clip, which I'm guessing means it has a much more limited capacity -- or can fit them with 'extended' clips, which have a higher capacity.

My understanding is that Nancy Lanza had these weapons outfitted with the 'extended clip's...

What's the rationale for such things being legal?

See the quote by Philip Van Cleave of the "Virginia Citizens Defense League" in #3222, if you want to get a pretty good idea of the underlying rationale.


But that doesn't address the magazine capacity issue...

Again - I'm no expert on these sorts of things, but what I have read leads me to believe that one can have a 'Bushmaster .223' outfitted with various types of magazines...

Why can't we place limitations on what sorts of magazines are legal to sell, own, and buy, regardless of the weapon?

Whether for defense or just because they're 'fun' -- knock yourself out, buy whatever you like... but limit the magazine you can attach to whatever the reasonable capacity is...
   3269. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:20 PM (#4326661)
Any child with a neurological or psychological disorder should not live in a house with access to guns,” said Alspaugh-Jackson


Well given that DSM-V basically concludes that any kid who's ever experienced a bad mood, a good mood, thrown a tantrum, had a wild imagination, or had no imagination has a psychological disorder.
   3270. zonk Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:20 PM (#4326662)
Rather than limiting types of guns available - why can't we limit capacity, regardless of type?



States do regulate the size of clips/magazines, but obviously it varies by state. I think the limit in most lefty states is 10 rounds, while most of the rightier states have no limits.


OK - is 10 rounds a reasonable limit?

   3271. Chicago Joe Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:22 PM (#4326663)
When it comes to schools, D.C., Chicago, New York, and L.A. are already spending the most money per capit


Chicago is ranked #4215 in per-student spending on teachers (out of 14550 school district entities) in the U.S.
   3272. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:24 PM (#4326666)
OK - is 10 rounds a reasonable limit?


10 round clips would be the point I'd compromise to, not the point to start the negotiations. There is no practical need for any weapon, either hunting or self-defense oriented, that should require more than 10 rounds. If you can't hit the target with 10 rounds you either 1) suck as a hunter or 2) are already dead.
   3273. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:24 PM (#4326669)
Right, it's totally impossible Lanza's mental state had deteriorated

And maybe it wouldn't have (assuming it did), if his mother hadn't treated him to a life of target ranges, home arsenals, and paranoia.

The fact of the matter is that all we know is that he had Aspergers, which isn't typically an affliction that manifests itself in violence. Everything else, you're inventing.
   3274. Morty Causa Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:27 PM (#4326671)
Those were the ones registered, but I think she had weapons that weren't registered. Also, see the articles that comment on her love of guns--it wasn't just based on guns she owned and possessed. It had to do with her behavior and her views on guns and the coming apolcalypse.

From the article above: "She had “at least a dozen” firearms — mainly larger rifles,” the friend added. He said he didn’t know anything about the pistols."

   3275. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:28 PM (#4326673)
But the common thread I keep reading seems to come down to these 'extended capacity' magazines... I presume that one can have a 'Glock' or a Bushmaster that has what amounts to a standard clip, which I'm guessing means it has a much more limited capacity -- or can fit them with 'extended' clips, which have a higher capacity.

My understanding is that Nancy Lanza had these weapons outfitted with the 'extended clip's...


Is this accurate? one thing that seems to continue is the conflicting information being reported surrounding the arms/ammo used. I honestly don't know, I've read that these were standard sized clips used in the shooting, but then have also read the opposite. I think I'm going back to my policy of not reading/watching these types of stories for at least a full week.
   3276. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:31 PM (#4326677)
Well, that's three out of five guns for hunting, so even if I consider one non-hunting handgun sufficient, it's difficult to consider two 'extensive'.

I'm not sure, however, how much hunting Ms. Lanza was doing with her five guns. I'm going to guess at this point, zero. In such a case, with no hunting involved, yes, I'd consider that somewhat extensive. If your own ownership is not, do you think her five is equal to your five on that scale, or no?


It doesn't matter if the guns are actually used for hunting. A gun enthusiast will, more than likely, prefer to try out the various types of guns. Shotguns are very different from rifles, which are very different from handguns. Having one or two of each type of gun is in no way having an arsenal. I have a pair of basketball shoes, a pair of golf shoes, a pair of sneaker, a pair of dress shoes, and a pair of boots. Do I have an arsenal of shoes?

I do however think ar-15's and 'assault rifles' should be banned, as well as high-capacity clips. Sure, some people get a thrill out of them, and they do so in a perfectly safe manner, but there is just too much inadvertent risk to others. It could lead to a slippery slope, but until we can better handle mentally unstable peoples guns of that sort should be banned.
   3277. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:34 PM (#4326683)
Chicago is ranked #4215 in per-student spending on teachers (out of 14550 school district entities) in the U.S.

You mean the Chicago teachers who are making almost $80,000 per year plus benefits after their strike? Unless Chicago is packing 50 kids into each classroom, the above claim seems fishy.

***
The fact of the matter is that all we know is that he had Aspergers, which isn't typically an affliction that manifests itself in violence. Everything else, you're inventing.

Get serious. I hope for your sake that you're posting while intoxicated, because your comments this morning have been nothing short of embarrassing. (A person shot in the face and killed is a victim "only in the most technical sense"? You must be joking.)
   3278. hokieneer Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:39 PM (#4326690)
From what we know she had a .223 semi-auto, 2 handguns, and a shotgun. That constitutes a private arsenal?

When that "collection" of firearms is capable of perpetrating one of the most deadly mass murders in the history of our country within a matter of minutes, then pardon me if I don't wish to get bogged down in nomenclature.

Let's put it this way: Whether you want to call it an arsenal or just a cool collection of conversational pieces, it had no place in that woman's private possession. I would hope we might at least all agree with that.


Outside of her lack of concern about her sons mental stability, and the fact her firearms were not properly secured, I have no problem with some individual owning 5 firearms. I'm not even sure why we are even discussing the fact she had multiple firearms. The sick SOB could have went on a mass murdering spree with just 2 of her firearms, even 1 with the link Joe provided in #3262.

Your opinion seems to be, the woman was so deranged and you know this because look at the amount of firearms she owns, and people who feel the need to build arsenals are not safe to own firearms. When in reality, her collection of firearms is not atypical for people that own firearms, there for we have a large portion (no idea how many people in USA own 5+ firearms, but I wouldn't be surprised with any number anyone can find) of the population that falls under your blanket statement: "How any sane government can allow people like that to purchase firearms is beyond me."
   3279. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:41 PM (#4326693)
Get serious. I hope for your sake that you're posting while intoxicated, because your comments this morning have been nothing short of embarrassing. (A person shot in the face and killed is a victim "only in the most technical sense"? You must be joking.)


I don't think you are going to get a satisfactory response to this or to any of your other posts directed towards SBB Joe. Some people you can debate with and an understanding can be reached, others its just the equivalent of smashing your head against a brick wall.
   3280. hokieneer Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:44 PM (#4326697)
Is this accurate? one thing that seems to continue is the conflicting information being reported surrounding the arms/ammo used. I honestly don't know, I've read that these were standard sized clips used in the shooting, but then have also read the opposite. I think I'm going back to my policy of not reading/watching these types of stories for at least a full week.


I'm having trouble finding precise details as well mrams. Originally the .223 was just in the car, then it was used. Then it was standard mags, then it was extended mags, then it was not. I've heard some mentions of maybe hollow-points.
   3281. Chicago Joe Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:44 PM (#4326698)
You mean the Chicago teachers who are making almost $80,000 per year plus benefits after their strike? Unless Chicago is packing 50 kids into each classroom, the above claim seems fishy.


Not so. Source (census bureau). You'll have to download the spreadsheet-"Individual Unit Tables".

There's a link in the sentence you quoted.


Your number (or anything within 10% of it) doesn't appear anywhere in that article.

   3282. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:46 PM (#4326700)
I'm having trouble finding precise details as well mrams. Originally the .223 was just in the car, then it was used. Then it was standard mags, then it was extended mags, then it was not. I've heard some mentions of maybe hollow-points.


No one knows what the hell happened yet. Well, maybe one or two guys charged with the actual investigation have a clue, but everyone else is making #### up as they go. It's like hot stove league rumors, but for 'how did that guy kill 20 kids?'
   3283. Tripon Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:46 PM (#4326702)
Hanoman said Nancy Lanza told him she introduced guns to Adam as a way to teach him responsibility.
"Guns require a lot of respect, and she really tried to instill that responsibility within him, and he took to it. He loved being careful with them. He made it a source of pride," he said.

   3284. hokieneer Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:49 PM (#4326706)
From the article above: "She had “at least a dozen” firearms — mainly larger rifles,” the friend added. He said he didn’t know anything about the pistols."


I do wonder about it. The police said she had 5 legally registered guns. That means she had that many illegal guns? Is her friend in this article just ballparking it? I have no idea how many guns my neighbor has, but if I had to take a guess, I would guess "dozens".
   3285. zonk Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:50 PM (#4326708)
FWIW -

Joe Manchin, certainly not a 'gun control advocate' by any stretch -- seems to be in agreement with me (or perhaps more accurately, I'm in agreement with him, since I'd defer to his knowledge on guns)...

West Virginia Sen. Joe Manchin — who has an “A” rating from the NRA and is a lifetime member of the pro-gun rights group — said Monday that it was time to “move beyond rhetoric” on gun control.

“I just came with my family from deer hunting,” Manchin said on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe.” “I’ve never had more than three shells in a clip. Sometimes you don’t get more than one shot anyway at a deer. It’s common sense. It’s time to move beyond rhetoric. We need to sit down and have a common sense discussion and move in a reasonable way.”


   3286. Lassus Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:50 PM (#4326709)
Having one or two of each type of gun is in no way having an arsenal. I have a pair of basketball shoes, a pair of golf shoes, a pair of sneaker, a pair of dress shoes, and a pair of boots. Do I have an arsenal of shoes?

Well, this is just ends up at the subjective disconnect. The purpose of your shoes is not to project a high-velocity projectile with which to kill someone. I have no problem stating that your five guns are not extensive. I have a problem with the fact that you find five guns for someone with no intention at all of using them for sport not extensive. And here we are.

And again, note - I have not at any point said "take away their guns!" But I think that the topic of what is reasonable gun ownership is absolutely worthy of discussion and debate given the scope of the statistics on the matter.
   3287. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:53 PM (#4326714)
Let's put it this way: Whether you want to call it an arsenal or just a cool collection of conversational pieces, it had no place in that woman's private possession. I would hope we might at least all agree with that.

Outside of her lack of concern about her sons mental stability, and the fact her firearms were not properly secured, I have no problem with some individual owning 5 firearms. I'm not even sure why we are even discussing the fact she had multiple firearms. The sick SOB could have went on a mass murdering spree with just 2 of her firearms, even 1 with the link Joe provided in #3262.


But as I've said, it's not just the amount of firearms, but their type.

Your opinion seems to be, the woman was so deranged and you know this because look at the amount of firearms she owns, and people who feel the need to build arsenals are not safe to own firearms.

In combination, the amount of firearms, the type of firearms, the presence in her house of a person with mental issues, and her apocalyptic worldview should have set off multiple alarms. There is simply no way to look at Nancy Lanza and say that a person like that should be allowed to own Bushmasters and Glocks.

When in reality, her collection of firearms is not atypical for people that own firearms, there for we have a large portion (no idea how many people in USA own 5+ firearms, but I wouldn't be surprised with any number anyone can find) of the population that falls under your blanket statement: "How any sane government can allow people like that to purchase firearms is beyond me."

And to me that simply shows what we're up against. And trust me, I realize that separating the Nancy Lanzas from those with more balanced mental states isn't always easy. But when it comes to the sort of weapons that can be used to kill en masse within a matter of seconds, I can't see why we shouldn't be erring on the side of caution. To narrowcast the often quoted phrase, the Second Amendment is not a suicide pact.
   3288. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:53 PM (#4326716)
I don't think you are going to get a satisfactory response to this or to any of your other posts directed towards SBB Joe. Some people you can debate with and an understanding can be reached, others its just the equivalent of smashing your head against a brick wall.


Eh, what more could we expect from SBB's id?

If we're looking for rational, reasoned and measured, I'm afraid we're going to have to wait until his superego makes an appearance ...
   3289. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:54 PM (#4326718)
From the article above: "She had “at least a dozen” firearms — mainly larger rifles,” the friend added. He said he didn’t know anything about the pistols."


these types of stories are a dime a dozen. 'Friend' / 'acquaintance' / bar stool companion / etc. and they are being broadcast/published at a feverish rate w/o corroboration or being substantiated.


everyone is making #### up as they go

FIFY, as investigators aren't saying much of anything (which is prudent).
   3290. Morty Causa Posted: December 17, 2012 at 12:56 PM (#4326720)
"His mom Nancy had always instructed me to keep an eye on him at all times, never turn my back or even go to the bathroom or anything like that. Which I found odd but I really didn't ask; it wasn't any of my business," said Kraft, who lives in Hermosa Beach. "But looking back at it now, I guess there was something else going on."

From the article above.
   3291. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 17, 2012 at 01:01 PM (#4326724)
The shooter's mother is plainly an accessory here, even if unwittingly.

...

The revelations came amid other developments in the shocking tragedy.

* Adam tried to buy a rifle three days before the attack from a Dick’s Sporting Goods store in Danbury, Conn., but was turned away, employees confirmed.The madman was rebuffed because he refused to follow the mandatory waiting period or undergo a background check, NBC News reported. ...


You have to wonder the logic people are using to conclude that this is a "gotcha!" in favor of stricter gun control laws. Here, the laws in place worked exactly as intended: they prevented the madman from buying a weapon right away.

And yet, he gained fast access to a weaponry anyway, thereby shattering the gun control argument. He was intent on doing harm, and he did it.

   3292. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: December 17, 2012 at 01:01 PM (#4326725)
A collection of 20 gun ads including one from Bushmaster in Maxim magazine with the tagline: If it's good enough for the professional, it's good enough for you."
   3293. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: December 17, 2012 at 01:02 PM (#4326730)
Well, this is just ends up at the subjective disconnect. The purpose of your shoes is not to project a high-velocity projectile with which to kill someone. I have no problem stating that your five guns are not extensive. I have a problem with the fact that you find five guns for someone with no intention at all of using them for sport not extensive. And here we are.

And again, note - I have not at any point said "take away their guns!" But I think that the topic of what is reasonable gun ownership is absolutely worthy of discussion and debate given the scope of the statistics on the matter.


How exactly do you define 'sport'? I am not arguing facetiously, it's a genuine question. Some people do consider it 'sport' to go to the range and shoot at targets, moving or stationary. Again, I do not think assault rifles should be legal, but we need to move beyond moralizing and judging 'others' and come to an agreement on what we as an entire country decide is the best thing to do.
   3294. Morty Causa Posted: December 17, 2012 at 01:03 PM (#4326731)
He was intent on doing harm, and he did it.

So, why have any laws, Ray?

   3295. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: December 17, 2012 at 01:06 PM (#4326736)
In combination, the amount of firearms, the type of firearms, the presence in her house of a person with mental issues, and her apocalyptic worldview should have set off multiple alarms. There is simply no way to look at Nancy Lanza and say that a person like that should be allowed to own Bushmasters and Glocks.


And how exactly do we legislate this? Last I checked worldviews are not included in background checks when guns are purchased. Nor is the presence of other persons in the household, mentally stable or otherwise. What alarms would have been set off? Should the neighbors have barged in and seized her guns? Reported her to the police? Maybe move beyond some of your hyperbolic statements and make a suggestion of how to actually prevent a situation like this.
   3296. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 17, 2012 at 01:06 PM (#4326737)
Your number (or anything within 10% of it) doesn't appear anywhere in that article.

???

The number I cited (36 percent) is in the headline, the subtitle, the story, and in the sidebar chart.
   3297. Lassus Posted: December 17, 2012 at 01:07 PM (#4326738)
How exactly do you define 'sport'? I am not arguing facetiously, it's a genuine question. Some people do consider it 'sport' to go to the range and shoot at targets, moving or stationary. Again, I do not think assault rifles should be legal, but we need to move beyond moralizing and judging 'others' and come to an agreement on what we as an entire country decide is the best thing to do.

I thought about this and the use of the word after I posted.

I'm not sure, really. I admit I'm not. It's obviously easy for me as a non-gun-owner to say your entertainment and sport is bullshit. But something's really, really not working, so some questions need to be asked.
   3298. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 17, 2012 at 01:08 PM (#4326740)
So, why have any laws, Ray?


Property rights; recourse against people harming you in various ways (assault; fraud; breach of contract); etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

I presume the question was non-serious.
   3299. Dale Sams Posted: December 17, 2012 at 01:14 PM (#4326749)
There was a subject I wanted to broach upstream but didn't feel entirely comfortable. After some pondering, I think it's safe enough. And this does relate to our 2cnd amendment talk.

I would posit, based on how a pissant movement like 'Occupy' often got it's head caved in, that The Man is more afraid then one would think, or is warranted.
   3300. zonk Posted: December 17, 2012 at 01:14 PM (#4326750)
When in reality, her collection of firearms is not atypical for people that own firearms, there for we have a large portion (no idea how many people in USA own 5+ firearms, but I wouldn't be surprised with any number anyone can find) of the population that falls under your blanket statement: "How any sane government can allow people like that to purchase firearms is beyond me."

And to me that simply shows what we're up against. And trust me, I realize that separating the Nancy Lanzas from those with more balanced mental states isn't always easy. But when it comes to the sort of weapons that can be used to kill en masse within a matter of seconds, I can't see why we shouldn't be erring on the side of caution. To narrowcast the often quoted phrase, the Second Amendment is not a suicide pact.


*shrug*

Some people like guns... again, not my cup of tea -- but I have multiple family members who have collections that are 5+. Just off the top of my head, I can think of 6 cousins/uncles who do.

In fact - while, as I said, I'm by no means an expert - I have an uncle with a collection well into 100+ (he's also a bit of a 'prepper')... and believe it or not - while it was a long time ago, I've actually fired some rather exotic guns of his. I wouldn't venture a guess as to the names, but I do remember that they looked exactly like the sort I grew up seeing in video games and movies.

I should note - I'm all but certain he's obtained and owns all of them legally. I recall that when I went out with them, he brought along a briefcase of paperwork; the weekend before going out with him, we (my brother and I) spent an entire day in what amounted to a class on gun safety, etc.

It was something of a thrill to hold them initially, I'll admit... but for me, at least, that dissipated when I felt the kickback, heard the noise, and saw what happened to the target I hit.

Like I said, some people just like guns...

Page 33 of 62 pages ‹ First  < 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 >  Last ›

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Mike Emeigh
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogAL WILD CARD GAME 2014 OMNICHATTER
(923 - 12:34am, Oct 01)
Last: shoewizard

NewsblogOT: Politics, September, 2014: ESPN honors Daily Worker sports editor Lester Rodney
(4078 - 12:14am, Oct 01)
Last: The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB)

NewsblogWSJ: Playoff Hateability Index
(13 - 12:13am, Oct 01)
Last: cardsfanboy

NewsblogBrown: Winners And Losers: MLB Attendance In 2014, Nearly 74 Million Through The Gate
(33 - 11:27pm, Sep 30)
Last: Bhaakon

NewsblogMLB’s Biggest Star Is 40 (And He Just Retired). That Could Be A Problem.
(76 - 11:27pm, Sep 30)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogOT: NFL/NHL thread
(8172 - 11:26pm, Sep 30)
Last: Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams)

NewsblogSpector: Stats incredible! Numbers from the 2014 MLB season will amaze you
(31 - 11:04pm, Sep 30)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogESPN: Ron Gardenhire out after 13 Seasons with Twins
(42 - 10:49pm, Sep 30)
Last: The District Attorney

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 1959 Discussion
(6 - 10:35pm, Sep 30)
Last: MrC

NewsblogThe Calm-Before-The-Storm and Postseason Prediction OMNICHATTER, 2014
(110 - 10:25pm, Sep 30)
Last: JE (Jason)

NewsblogOT: The Soccer Thread, September 2014
(455 - 10:08pm, Sep 30)
Last: The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB)

NewsblogThe Economist: The new market inefficiencies
(16 - 9:20pm, Sep 30)
Last: DKDC

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 9-30-2014
(19 - 7:51pm, Sep 30)
Last: Leroy Kincaid

NewsblogFangraphs/Cistulli: Post-trade WAR for deadline trades
(16 - 7:15pm, Sep 30)
Last: JE (Jason)

NewsblogMadden: How dare the sabermetrics crowd and others try to diminish Derek Jeter’s greatness
(180 - 6:23pm, Sep 30)
Last: cardsfanboy

Page rendered in 1.3019 seconds
49 querie(s) executed