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Sunday, December 02, 2012

OTP December 2012 - Pushing G.O.P. to Negotiate, Obama Ends Giving In

Mr. Obama, scarred by failed negotiations in his first term and emboldened by a clear if close election to a second, has emerged as a different kind of negotiator in the past week or two, sticking to the liberal line and frustrating Republicans on the other side of the bargaining table.

Bitter Mouse Posted: December 02, 2012 at 11:15 PM | 6172 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   3501. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 18, 2012 at 10:39 AM (#4327549)
No, seriously. Flip.
   3502. Ron J2 Posted: December 18, 2012 at 10:41 AM (#4327551)
For those in the "nothing can be done", Slate on the Australian experience

(strong gun controls in the wake of a 1996 mass shooting. None since)

And yes, I get that it'd be basically impossible to enact anything remote similar in the US.
   3503. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 18, 2012 at 10:42 AM (#4327552)
maybe i am an easy grader


I think maybe a little, because he knows that it gets worse for his party if no deal is met - negotiating position after the cliff would be even worse. Plus I think he has something to gain by making a deal - deal making is very prized.

That said I am not critical of him over and above my normal "I disagree with the GOP" standard. I suspect I won't like the deal much, and then over time I will apreciate it more (since Obama always seems able to look like he does worse in negotiations than he it turns out he does).

Still I have seen near deals fall apart too many times to count this one done quite yet.
   3504. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: December 18, 2012 at 10:45 AM (#4327553)
I pay school taxes so you people's spawn will be locked up during the day.


And the spawn will someday pay your social security and medicare. Funny how that works.
   3505. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 18, 2012 at 10:46 AM (#4327554)
I am going to say that was never true. Kids have been moved along in schools since they were invented.


Yeah, you can only really hold a kid back one, maybe two years. You can't just hold them back every year, until you get a 14 year old going through classes with a group of 8 year olds.
   3506. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 18, 2012 at 10:47 AM (#4327555)
And the spawn will someday pay your social security and medicare. Funny how that works.


I give. I get. Works for me.
   3507. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 18, 2012 at 10:48 AM (#4327557)
And the spawn will someday pay your social security and medicare. Funny how that works.


My spawn is planning on ruling the world*, so watch yourself.

* The younger. The elder wants to solve the world energy shortage. They dream big.
   3508. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 18, 2012 at 10:51 AM (#4327561)
zonk

don't underestimate the impact of cote, the ceo of honeywell. there was a meeting about 2 weeks ago and when the tea party reps laid out their proposed plan of going over the cliff and then holding the country hostage to a debt ceiling limit which they thought could drag out until mid-year cote allegedly told them they had no idea on how a modern economy functions and then turned to senator mcconnell and asked, 'who are these clowns?'

if i am repeating myself i apologize. but i relish that story and hope it's true
   3509. Ron J2 Posted: December 18, 2012 at 10:54 AM (#4327564)
And since Ray and company are unlikely to read the link, it's more than just mass shooting are down:

homicides by firearm plunged 59 percent between 1995 and 2006, with no corresponding increase in non-firearm-related homicide (study results at wonkblog)

Gun related crimes way down, no increase in home invasions.

One interesting point that merits following up. Suicides by gun down 65%. No mention of actual suicide rate though and that's the kind of careful phrasing that always makes me edgy.

The mechanics were interesting. They simply bought back ~600,000 semi-automatic weapons (about 1/5 of the national total) and new purchases require a "genuine reason" (self-defense doesn't count)

Also worth noting. Introduced by a genuinely conservative government. Roughly 90% approval for the measures.
   3510. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 10:57 AM (#4327568)
STOP BEING CHILDISH!!! THERE'S NOTHING THAT CAN BE DONE!!!!!
   3511. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:02 AM (#4327574)
folks knock the speaker here regularly but he is the only one on his side who has nothing to gain and everything to lose by getting a deal done. he is doing it because he thinks it is right


Or perhaps he's simply a pragmatist, he also may actually have a clue as to how "a modern economy functions" which many amongst the Teaper movement sorely lack.


   3512. zonk Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:05 AM (#4327576)
zonk

don't underestimate the impact of cote, the ceo of honeywell. there was a meeting about 2 weeks ago and when the tea party reps laid out their proposed plan of going over the cliff and then holding the country hostage to a debt ceiling limit which they thought could drag out until mid-year cote allegedly told them they had no idea on how a modern economy functions and then turned to senator mcconnell and asked, 'who are these clowns?'

if i am repeating myself i apologize. but i relish that story and hope it's true


Ditto on that -

Clowns have ideas on both sides have bad ideas - the lefty idea that Obama could realistically just ignore the debt limit (thus pretending that the bonds sold under such conditions wouldn't be subject to onerous markup based on the possibility it would be invalid) for one...

Most of my... chagrin, I guess... is rooted in the fact the clownish ideas on the left are at least coming from places appropriate (i.e., the internet), while too many of these clowns on the right are actually putting forth these ideas IN congress.
   3513. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:08 AM (#4327580)
folks knock the speaker here regularly but he is the only one on his side who has nothing to gain and everything to lose by getting a deal done. he is doing it because he thinks it is right


Here's my "knock" on Boehner; he only did what you suggest "he thinks is right" when he had no other choice. He could have behaved like a man who put country ahead of party and acknowledged "how a modern economy functions" during the previous term, but he thought it was in his personal political interests to cozy up to the idiots in the TP caucus and run a prevent defense on Obama's reelection instead. The nation is less far on the path to economic recovery because of that.

So, good on his Orangeness for finally getting with the rationality when he had no other choice. Don't expect me to give him a lot of moral credit for it, though.
   3514. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:08 AM (#4327581)
homicides by firearm plunged 59 percent between 1995 and 2006, with no corresponding increase in non-firearm-related homicide (study results at wonkblog)


From the link.


The paper also estimated that buying back 3,500 guns per 100,000 people results in a 35 to 50 percent decline in the homicide rate, but because of the low number of homicides in Australia normally, this finding isn’t statistically significant.


What was found as significant was the decline in suicide rate. Personally, I don't find this to be a convincing argument to limit a right - I believe any competent adult has to right to end their life. I am in favor of much more severe punishments for parents that have kids that access their guns to commit suicide.

There's probably a lot of ground to agree on things like transportation and storage, but who can blame the gun owners for being suspicious? It's very hard to take seriously reasonable measures from the same people who have expressed desires to completely ban handguns and pointing fingers at you for murders. You see the same kind of thing even with very small abortion legislation as well, on the other side. Legislation needs two sides with mutual trust and neither Republicans nor Democrats as of now have given the opposing party any reason whatsoever to trust them at all.
   3515. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:09 AM (#4327582)
So did Joe slither away in embarrassment after his tone-deaf rant against teacher salaries on the day tales of the Newtown teachers' bravery and selfless heroism continued to pile up? Or is that too much to expect?
   3516. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:09 AM (#4327583)
Clowns have ideas on both sides have bad ideas - the lefty idea that Obama could realistically just ignore the debt limit (thus pretending that the bonds sold under such conditions wouldn't be subject to onerous markup based on the possibility it would be invalid) for one...


In the pantheon of crazy, I like the magic platinum coin idea better.
   3517. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:10 AM (#4327584)
Anyone know anything about Tim Scott? He's a Teaper, so I assume he's insane, but there's some pleasure to be had in seeing even a crazy-eyed TP kook of a black man take Strom Thurmond's old seat.
   3518. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:11 AM (#4327585)
There's probably a lot of ground to agree on things like transportation and storage, but who can blame the gun owners for being suspicious?

I can. I'm sick of paranoid nuttery, and am under no obligation to pay it heed. I don't give two flying ##### about their "suspicions."

If they're as "law abiding" as advertised, they'll have no problem abiding by sane gun laws. If they do have a problem, they aren't really that "law abiding" in the first place.
   3519. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:11 AM (#4327586)
sam

the last time the speaker didn't have the votes so he didn't have the clout to club folks in line. things began to turn when he bonked some heads over the payroll tax issue the last end of year.

not that the speaker was hoping for a romney loss but he was clearly prepping just in case.

you should be glad that the guy in the speaker's chair is a dealmaker. if he wasn't this discussion would be very different and to the detriment of everyone
   3520. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:15 AM (#4327592)
you should be glad that the guy in the speaker's chair is a dealmaker. if he wasn't this discussion would be very different and to the detriment of everyone


Don't get me wrong. The nation is lucky, in some ways, to have Boehner in the Speakership rather than, oh, Paul Ryan's nutty ass. So I get that, and I don't deny the gist of what you're saying. But I don't think we should just whistle past the graveyard and ignore the parts of Boehner's legacy that aren't flattering.
   3521. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:16 AM (#4327593)
So did Joe slither away in embarrassment after his tone-deaf rant against teacher salaries on the day tales of the Newtown teachers' bravery and selfless heroism continued to pile up? Or is that too much to expect?


I suspect Joe is skulking in the shadows, ignoring this forum until his preferred narratives and talking points are not so obviously noxious to the general public.
   3522. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:17 AM (#4327594)
In the pantheon of crazy, I like the magic platinum coin idea better.


Well, it *was* legal.
   3523. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:17 AM (#4327595)
There's probably a lot of ground to agree on things like transportation and storage, but who can blame the gun owners for being suspicious?

I can. I'm sick of paranoid nuttery, and am under no obligation to pay it heed. I don't give two flying ##### about their "suspicions."


ditto
   3524. spike Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:19 AM (#4327596)
Not sure what this means, but submitted for your consideration -

Investment firm that owns manufacturer of rifle used in Newtown shooting putting entire firearms portfolio up for sale.

"It is apparent that the Sandy Hook tragedy was a watershed event that has raised the national debate on gun control to an unprecedented level," Cerberus Capital Management said in its statement. "It is not our role to take positions, or attempt to shape or influence the gun control policy debate...here are, however, actions that we as a firm can take. Accordingly, we have determined to immediately engage in a formal process to sell our investment in Freedom Group."
   3525. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:21 AM (#4327599)
It looks like the Ruskies may be getting ready to evacuate from Syria....
   3526. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:24 AM (#4327602)
Personally, I don't find this to be a convincing argument to limit a right - I believe any competent adult has to right to end their life. I am in favor of much more severe punishments for parents that have kids that access their guns to commit suicide.


And this is where the discussion can take place, an actual weighing of costs and benefits. I think we end up in different places Dan but governance is compromise, not me getting what I want.

In the pantheon of crazy, I like the magic platinum coin idea better.


Me too. The whole debt limit situation is clearly nuts. Congress passes laws to spend money. Congress refuses to pass law to spend money (the same money being spent because of congress passing laws previously). The executive branch has to (no kidding it must) in good faith follow the laws passed by congress (and of course the relevent parts of the constitution).

There are many ways the executive branch could go about "solving" the conflict and almost no one can do much almost no matter what the executive decides to do except ... of course the "markets" and political fallout needs to be accounted for, even though it is a complete BS situation.
   3527. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:27 AM (#4327604)
I suspect Joe is skulking in the shadows, ignoring this forum until his preferred narratives and talking points are not so obviously noxious to the general public.


Not to rag on Joe ... the real cowards here are the NRA. They have gone fetal on social media and with the press. If you believe something then say it, stand up, but no they are cowards waiting for people to forget. It is likely the smart thing to do, but it is also cowardly.
   3528. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:27 AM (#4327605)
I can. I'm sick of paranoid nuttery, and am under no obligation to pay it heed. I don't give two flying ##### about their "suspicions."

And you're a great example on why deals don't get made.

If you want to look at paranoid nuttery, the bleating from many on the left about how progressive indexing and raising the retirement age will destroy Social Security is a pretty good one, too.
   3529. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:28 AM (#4327607)

Not to rag on Joe ... the real cowards here are the NRA. They have gone fetal on social media and with the press. If you believe something then say it, stand up, but no they are cowards waiting for people to forget. It is likely the smart thing to do, but it is also cowardly.


In other words, you just don't like gun rights.

If the NRA instead spoke up and gave their position of gun rights, then you'd get angry about them being tone deaf, no doubt. They tried standing up and proclaiming what they believe after gun massacres in the past and the left acted like they raped premature babies.
   3530. Morty Causa Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:28 AM (#4327608)
   3531. zonk Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:30 AM (#4327610)
Anyone know anything about Tim Scott? He's a Teaper, so I assume he's insane, but there's some pleasure to be had in seeing even a crazy-eyed TP kook of a black man take Strom Thurmond's old seat.


By most accounts, he's a wee bit less disagreeable than DeMint...

Of note in his relatively brief House career --

He did partner with Lindsay Graham to secure federal spending (read: an earmark) for a Charleston harbor expansion project -- something that got him a fair bit of TP grumbling... I'm not going to take him to task for that because I don't have a problem with earmarks that are clearly good federal spending projects - just noting that he took some TP grief and didn't back down.

He hasn't made any really outrageous statements to my knowledge -- the closest was saying that if Obama were to ignore the debt limit, it would be an impeachable offense, but that's a long way off from outrageous -- and really, moot since the administration has been pretty clearly about (wisely) not believing it an option whether legal or not.

He IS a big-time union buster... but that's par for the course from a southern Republican.

All in all, I think he's a clear and significant upgrade over DeMint.

It will be interesting to see what his future holds in the Senate, though... He has to run in a 2014 special election, then again in 2016 for a full-term. There were a fair number of more senior Republicans (remember - Scott was a special election replacement... he hasn't technically filled a full House term yet, though he was just reelected without much in the way of a primary) that got passed over... so I do expect him to face a primary in 2014 at least.... and appointees always have a pretty tough road to travel.

I don't expect to agree with him on much of anything, but he doesn't appear to be a loudmouthed bombthrower... so like I said - I consider him an upgrade, even if that upgrade is probably meaningless when it comes to actual votes in Senate.
   3532. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:32 AM (#4327612)
And you're a great example on why deals don't get made.

What, precisely, are they "suspicious" of?

If it's this stupid fundie/teaper #### about the end of times, or resisting "tyranny," you can understand why it should be paid no heed ... right?
   3533. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:34 AM (#4327613)
Not to rag on Joe ... the real cowards here are the NRA. They have gone fetal on social media and with the press. If you believe something then say it, stand up, but no they are cowards waiting for people to forget. It is likely the smart thing to do, but it is also cowardly.

The odd part is that usually the NRA uses spree killings as a fundraising tactic, immediately telling their members, "The Lefties are gonna use this as a pretext, send us $$$$$$$ now or you'll lose your guns"
or perhaps they figure they don't have to do that now, wingers all over are doing it for them.
   3534. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:37 AM (#4327617)
In other words, you just don't like gun rights.

If the NRA instead spoke up and gave their position of gun rights, then you'd get angry about them being tone deaf, no doubt.


So you support their "brave" stand of closing their twitter and facebook accounts? Seriously? You don't think there is any room between saying something horribly tone deaf and running and hiding?

Dan it is wonderful that you can read my mind and the future, but can you please point to any statement I have made which suggests anything like what you are saying? In my post I admit it may be the smart play politically to be cowards, but that doesn't change the fact that completely closing shop and refusing to make any statements at all is cowardice.

EDIT: Aside, one of the main reasons Obama beat Clinton inthe primary is he was brave and took a stand against the Iraq war when Clinton and most other Dems did not. It is not just that Obama was correct, it was his taking a stand that impressed many. Sometimes you need to take a stand against current popular opinion when youbelieve something and have the stones. The NRA clearly does not have the stones.

EDIT 2: And I have complimented many people (including you) for have the courage of their convictions here on this site - even when I disagree with them and speak strongly against their opinions.
   3535. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:47 AM (#4327621)
If you want to look at paranoid nuttery, the bleating from many on the left about how progressive indexing and raising the retirement age will destroy Social Security is a pretty good one, too.


The lefties are just as entitled to their [il]logical conclusion/slippery slope arguments as the righties are to theirs.

   3536. zonk Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:48 AM (#4327623)
If you want to look at paranoid nuttery, the bleating from many on the left about how progressive indexing and raising the retirement age will destroy Social Security is a pretty good one, too.


Pardon my ignorance, but is "progressive indexing" another term for moving from the current CPI used in benefits calculation to the chained CPI.... or, is it another term for means testing of benefits?

If the former, then I agree... if the latter, I loudly and strongly disagree, as it would be fundamental change in the core of Social Security in and of itself.
   3537. tshipman Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:49 AM (#4327625)
The White House offer marks a major shift for the president—Mr. Obama since his first run for the White House has campaigned to allow Bush-era tax rates to expire for households making above $250,000—and raises the question of whether he will be able to sell such a deal to his own party.

As part of the offer, the president lowered the amount of tax revenue he is seeking in a deal from $1.4 trillion to $1.2 trillion. He also agreed to accept a GOP proposal to slow Social Security growth by using a different inflation formula to calculate cost-of-living increases, people familiar with the matter said.


The 400K counter offer is a good offer--and arguably makes for a better deal. The more money that you can get from really high income people with as little as possible coming from just high income people lightens any potential economic impact. I'm actually really surprised that Boehner is compromising here. The priority has seemed thus far to be limiting the amount that super high income people will be hurt, but that's not what this deal will do.

There is no question that Obama will get every D in the senate to vote for a tax increase on amounts over 400k. Most of the senators were squishier on going as low as 250K. They'd prefer to vote on 400K.

I hope that O continues to push for the payroll tax extension and the unemployment benefits. He's showing himself to be pretty skillful when negotiating in the lame duck.
   3538. zonk Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:51 AM (#4327627)
I hope that O continues to push for the payroll tax extension and the unemployment benefits. He's showing himself to be pretty skillful when negotiating in the lame duck.


The payroll tax extension is all but dead... might as well kiss that one goodbye, it ain't surviving any deal.
   3539. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:51 AM (#4327629)
   3540. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:54 AM (#4327630)

The payroll tax extension is all but dead... might as well kiss that one goodbye, it ain't surviving any deal.


But it's SO stimulative AND it's a tax cut! Ezra Klein is reporting that infrastructure stimulus is likely, but that still can't possibly be as effective as eliminating an ultra-regressive tax. Can we negotiate removal of the payroll tax cap instead? That sounds more up Boehner's means-testing friendly alley.
   3541. zonk Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:59 AM (#4327636)
But it's SO stimulative AND it's a tax cut! Ezra Klein is reporting that infrastructure stimulus is likely, but that still can't possibly be as effective as eliminating an ultra-regressive tax. Can we negotiate removal of the payroll tax cap instead? That sounds more up Boehner's means-testing friendly alley.


I don't disagree...

If 2/3 of the economy is consumer spending, it makes the most sense to put more money into the pockets of people who live hand-to-mouth...

However, as a stalwart defender of Social Security -- I also recognize that we can't have it both ways. I believe in the program - but I also believe in paying for it. Social Security's finances are in decent enough shape that it can certainly afford the revenue hit for a while longer, but the longer the revenue cut is in place -- the harder it becomes to undo. As much as I would like to find a way to extend it, I think I'd have to find the revenue elsewhere to do so.

...and frankly, on a purely personal level - it's probably the part of the equation that has the most direct and immediate impact on my own paycheck.
   3542. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:59 AM (#4327637)
Dan it is wonderful that you can read my mind and the future, but can you please point to any statement I have made which suggests anything like what you are saying? In my post I admit it may be the smart play politically to be cowards, but that doesn't change the fact that completely closing shop and refusing to make any statements at all is cowardice.

So, when they aggressively defended gun rights after Columbine, you stood up and applauded them for their courage?

If you say you did, I'm inclined to believe you - I haven't known you to be dishonest, unlike some of the others here.
   3543. GregD Posted: December 18, 2012 at 12:05 PM (#4327640)
Krugman today is interesting. The Deal Dilemma

If the deal has what he thinks--but isn't sure it has--including the infrastructure and unemployment extension AND the capital gains reset to Clinton era--then it's worth doing, though it will also seem like the Dems are giving up some things--especially in domestic cuts--that will hurt. I don't like hurting, but I think the capital gains reset is gigantic--potentially more significant than the income tax reset, which would happen anyway.

And I do think it is important not to risk another recession. I understand and agree with the idea that the so-called fiscal cliff/fiscal slope shouldn't spark an immediate recession, but I'm not sure that my view is determinative; if most people think it sparks a recession, then it can spark one purely based on misunderstanding. And I think it's valuable for president, party, and nation not to do that. If it helps the Republicans, too, so be it.

I would like the debt limit taken off the table forever but I understand the idea of just pushing it out through this Congress' term.
   3544. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 18, 2012 at 12:08 PM (#4327642)
3539 manages to pull off the difficult trick of surprising me with the level of potential right wing crazy in the world.
   3545. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 18, 2012 at 12:10 PM (#4327643)
And I do think it is important not to risk another recession. I understand and agree with the idea that the so-called fiscal cliff/fiscal slope shouldn't spark an immediate recession, but I'm not sure that my view is determinative; if most people think it sparks a recession, then it can spark one purely based on misunderstanding. And I think it's valuable for president, party, and nation not to do that. If it helps the Republicans, too, so be it.


Yeah. I'd rather play it conservative with the animal spirits and take a good deal rather than demanding the perfect deal instead.
   3546. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 18, 2012 at 12:11 PM (#4327644)
So, when they aggressively defended gun rights after Columbine, you stood up and applauded them for their courage?


You can disagree with them after Columbine and still think they are cowards for not defending their positions after Newtown.
   3547. Greg K Posted: December 18, 2012 at 12:15 PM (#4327646)
3539 manages to pull off the difficult trick of surprising me with the level of potential right wing crazy in the world.

I don't know, a friend of mine posted a facebook photo with some accompanying text that is pretty convincing! (Though I'm not sure if the LIBOR intimidating through turning sons into mass killers thing is a particularly right-wing thing. The proponents that I know are just general conspiracy theory enthusiasts.)
   3548. GregD Posted: December 18, 2012 at 12:16 PM (#4327648)
My fantasy would be that they sneak in a reform of the carried interest rule but that doesn't sound like it's happening.

I would rather Social Security be reformed within Social Security's own structures not in relation to an overall deal. We've taken spending out of Social Security in order to spend more elsewhere at present; that breaks the fictional way we've treated Social Security without a seeming payoff. I would be for an alteration of Social Security's benefits/revenues as part of a way to ensure Social Security's health but if it gets tied to every budget deal, it will eventually get strangled slowly to death.
   3549. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 18, 2012 at 12:20 PM (#4327650)
One of the more blatantly dishonest talking points of the gun lobby and its sycophants in Congress is their line of "Let's just enforce the laws we have already, instead of trying to enact new ones."

Any time anyone feels the inclination to take that argument seriously, they might want to read articles like this:

ATF, charged with regulating guns, lacks resources and leadership

A few choice excerpts:

Amid an intense debate over gun control in the wake of the mass shooting in Connecticut, the federal agency at the heart of firearms regulation in America is so beleaguered and under-resourced that it has not had a confirmed director in six years.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, a division of the Justice Department, is supposed to regulate the nation’s gun industry. But many within ATF say it is the industry that dominates the agency.

The gun lobby, concerned about government regulation of firearms ownership, has taken steps to limit the resources available to ATF and to prevent the agency from having a strong leader, according to former and current ATF officials.

For decades, the National Rifle Association has lobbied successfully to block all attempts to computerize records of gun sales, arguing against any kind of national registry of firearms ownership. And despite the growth of the gun industry and the nation’s population, ATF has fewer agents today than it did nearly four decades ago: fewer than 2,500....

President Obama’s nominee to be ATF’s permanent director is Andrew Traver, who oversees the bureau’s Chicago office. But his nomination has been stalled in the Senate for two years because Traver raised the ire of the gun lobby with comments it has characterized as anti-firearm. The NRA, which immediately opposed his nomination, has said Traver is linked to gun-control advocates and anti-gun activities in Chicago.

No permanent ATF director has been on the job in the six years since Congress required that the position be confirmed by the Senate. That action allowed the gun lobby to have a say on Capitol Hill about the agency’s leadership, according to ATF officials.

Even Michael J. Sullivan, a former U.S. attorney in Boston nominated by President George W. Bush, could not get confirmed. He was blocked by three senators who accused him of being hostile to gun dealers. One of the senators was a member of the NRA’s board of directors....

Past and current Justice Department officials say the gun lobby has further hampered the work of ATF by moving to block the government’s attempts to put gun-ownership records into an easily accessible computer database. When guns are used in crimes, such as the massacre in Newtown, Conn., ATF employees must go through an antiquated, laborious process, mostly done by hand, to trace the firearms to the stores where they were bought.
   3550. Famous Original Joe C Posted: December 18, 2012 at 12:25 PM (#4327655)
About the author or [3539]:

Susan Shannon, author of Short Little Rebel, uses Bible Scripture and God's inspiration to analyze both national & international news


Oh.
   3551. formerly dp Posted: December 18, 2012 at 12:29 PM (#4327658)
Anyone know anything about Tim Scott? He's a Teaper, so I assume he's insane, but there's some pleasure to be had in seeing even a crazy-eyed TP kook of a black man take Strom Thurmond's old seat.
Some highlights. I am not a fan. SC Republicans typically treat him as a prop, but when he does speak, it's a bit scary.
   3552. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 18, 2012 at 12:31 PM (#4327661)
Though I'm not sure if the LIBOR intimidating through turning sons into mass killers thing is a particularly right-wing thing.


That's the bit that took me by surprise. I expect the cray cray, but "this is all a UN conspiracy to leverage testimony in the LIBOR scandal testimony" is a way-out sort of cray cray I hadn't heard yet.
   3553. The Good Face Posted: December 18, 2012 at 12:32 PM (#4327662)
So, when they aggressively defended gun rights after Columbine, you stood up and applauded them for their courage?


You can disagree with them after Columbine and still think they are cowards for not defending their positions after Newtown.


What a bizarre conversation this is. The NRA is an advocacy group; why on earth should they care if people who hate and fear them don't like their tactics? If the BMs of the world are complaining about the NRA being cowards, it's probably evidence that whatever they're doing is effective and well-advised.

"Grrr, you guys suck! Why won't you behave in the self-destructive ways I want you to!"
   3554. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 18, 2012 at 12:32 PM (#4327663)
So, when they aggressively defended gun rights after Columbine, you stood up and applauded them for their courage?


At the time? I honestly don't remember, though I likely disparaged their policy beliefs (which is pretty much any day ending in 'Y' where I comment on them). I think Democracy (and society honestly) functions best when folks defend their beliefs even when I very much disagree with them. It is part of my First Amendment fetish.

Much of my reaction comes from my surprise that they are acting this way, it seems out of character.
   3555. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 18, 2012 at 12:38 PM (#4327667)
Some highlights. I am not a fan.


I doubt anyone but the deep right wingers would be a fan of a Teaper House rep getting promoted to Senate, but if that's the best ThinkProgress can come up with against him... Meh. That's not a smart, modern Senator, but hey, it's South Carolina, and he's not shown himself to be Allen West or anything.
   3556. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 18, 2012 at 12:39 PM (#4327668)
What a bizarre conversation this is. The NRA is an advocacy group; why on earth should they care if people who hate and fear them don't like their tactics? If the BMs of the world are complaining about the NRA being cowards, it's probably evidence that whatever they're doing is effective and well-advised.


Hey sometimes cowardice is the right play, but I get to make fun of them for it. I am not concern trolling, and in fact I would love they act in some random self destrictive fashion (we need more Tea Party types in the NRA leadership), but still and above all that ...

If a group I was in favor of acted in such a cowardly fashion I would call them out on it. In fact I have vague memories of calling out Acorn for basically folding and disappearing in the face of their critics.* I don't know if I did publically state it though or just thought it, but if it makes you feel better I thought less of them for it, though I admit the situations are not anywhere near exactly the same.

* Acorn's disappearance made them look weak and guilty, but I don't know much about the details and perhaps there were strong legal or financial reasons they did so. It makes it super funny thought that something like 49% of Republicans thought Acorn (which no longer exists) stole the 2012 election though in that PPP poll pointed to upthread.

EDIT: And I find it amusing that you think it wrong of me to criticize a group I don't like. Do you ever say bad things about groups you don't like? Bet you do.
   3557. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 18, 2012 at 12:40 PM (#4327669)
If the BMs of the world are complaining about the NRA being cowards, it's probably evidence that whatever they're doing is effective and well-advised.


Well, BM noted that hiding in their rat holes was probably the politically advisable move in his original post.
   3558. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 12:40 PM (#4327670)
Much of my reaction comes from my surprise that they are acting this way, it seems out of character.

Not really. At its core, it's a cowardly, clownish, and extremist organization dedicated to helping men compensate for their own inadequacies by "bearing arms."

It no longer has anything whatever to do with sport, safety, or the local militia.
   3559. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 18, 2012 at 12:45 PM (#4327673)
The NRA is an advocacy group; why on earth should they care if people who hate and fear them don't like their tactics?


A couple last points. I dislike them, but I don't really hate much of anyone, and I most certainly do not fear the NRA. I mean really.

And in general being percieved as cowardly is bad for any advocacy group. It is much better to be respected as tough guys than thought of as a bunch of cowards. It is hard to make people take you seriously if they think you are yellow bellied pigs who duck from a fight - that is just political reality.
   3560. formerly dp Posted: December 18, 2012 at 12:48 PM (#4327674)
I doubt anyone but the deep right wingers would be a fan of a Teaper House rep getting promoted to Senate,
Yeah, there's not a lot that's particularly striking about him. He's pretty solidly in the DeMint flavor of Teaperism that seems to be popular down here-- basically just rebranded extremist Republicans, complete with the gay-hating and bible-thumping under the guise of adhering to "the Constitution as it was written."
   3561. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 18, 2012 at 12:56 PM (#4327679)
Not really. At its core, it's a cowardly, clownish, and extremist organization dedicated to helping men compensate for their own inadequacies by "bearing arms."


No. At its core, the NRA is an organization dedicated to selling guns at gun shows. They're an industry specific lobby, not a rights lobby. They use the rights arguments because it benefits their industry. They are adamantly opposed to regulations because it would crater the sales and profits of their industry financiers.
   3562. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 12:59 PM (#4327681)
No. At its core, the NRA is an organization dedicated to selling guns at gun shows. They're an industry specific lobby, not a rights lobby. They use the rights arguments because it benefits their industry. They are adamantly opposed to regulations because it would crater the sales and profits of their industry financiers.

Works for me.
   3563. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 12:59 PM (#4327683)

For more than five years, Brandon Bryant worked in an oblong, windowless container about the size of a trailer, where the air-conditioning was kept at 17 degrees Celsius (63 degrees Fahrenheit) and, for security reasons, the door couldn't be opened. Bryant and his coworkers sat in front of 14 computer monitors and four keyboards. When Bryant pressed a button in New Mexico, someone died on the other side of the world.

The container is filled with the humming of computers. It's the brain of a drone, known as a cockpit in Air Force parlance. But the pilots in the container aren't flying through the air. They're just sitting at the controls.

Bryant was one of them, and he remembers one incident very clearly when a Predator drone was circling in a figure-eight pattern in the sky above Afghanistan, more than 10,000 kilometers (6,250 miles) away. There was a flat-roofed house made of mud, with a shed used to hold goats in the crosshairs, as Bryant recalls. When he received the order to fire, he pressed a button with his left hand and marked the roof with a laser. The pilot sitting next to him pressed the trigger on a joystick, causing the drone to launch a Hellfire missile. There were 16 seconds left until impact.

"These moments are like in slow motion," he says today. Images taken with an infrared camera attached to the drone appeared on his monitor, transmitted by satellite, with a two-to-five-second time delay.

With seven seconds left to go, there was no one to be seen on the ground. Bryant could still have diverted the missile at that point. Then it was down to three seconds. Bryant felt as if he had to count each individual pixel on the monitor. Suddenly a child walked around the corner, he says.

Second zero was the moment in which Bryant's digital world collided with the real one in a village between Baghlan and Mazar-e-Sharif.

Bryant saw a flash on the screen: the explosion. Parts of the building collapsed. The child had disappeared. Bryant had a sick feeling in his stomach.

"Did we just kill a kid?" he asked the man sitting next to him.

"Yeah, I guess that was a kid," the pilot replied.

"Was that a kid?" they wrote into a chat window on the monitor.

Then, someone they didn't know answered, someone sitting in a military command center somewhere in the world who had observed their attack. "No. That was a dog," the person wrote.

They reviewed the scene on video. A dog on two legs?


3 part piece on the effects of the drone war on its pilots by der Spiegel.
   3564. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 01:08 PM (#4327684)
So does my right to bear arms include the right to bear drones?

   3565. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 18, 2012 at 01:12 PM (#4327686)
So does my right to bear arms include the right to bear drones?


FREEDOM!
   3566. The Good Face Posted: December 18, 2012 at 01:13 PM (#4327687)
And in general being percieved as cowardly is bad for any advocacy group. It is much better to be respected as tough guys than thought of as a bunch of cowards. It is hard to make people take you seriously if they think you are yellow bellied pigs who duck from a fight - that is just political reality.


Not when it's just concern trolling, which this is. The smart move is to let emotions cool down and wait for people to get some much needed perspective. The Newtown shootings, while a great tragedy for those affected, is an outlier event and not particularly meaningful for society as a whole. Children are still much, MUCH more likely to drown in a swimming pool, poison themselves with household chemicals/drugs or perish in a car accident than die in a school shooting. It's just not a meaningful danger statistically speaking; certainly not one worth giving up Constitutional rights for.

Whenever some outlier event occurs that results in lots of deaths, Americans line up to give their rights and freedoms to the government in exchange for "security," and it's never a good idea. How's the Patriot Act working out for us?
   3567. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 18, 2012 at 01:15 PM (#4327688)
The smart move is to let emotions cool down and wait for people to get some much needed perspective.


The smart move is to always cede the field when you're losing, yes.
   3568. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 18, 2012 at 01:17 PM (#4327689)
How's the Patriot Act working out for us?


1) It's PATRIOT ACT. It's an acronym.

2) In what way have you been adversely effected by it?
   3569. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 01:20 PM (#4327691)
certainly not one worth giving up Constitutional rights for.

The "Consititutional" right extends only to guns necessary for self-defense. Even that's a wacko interpretation of the Second Amendment, but we'll stipulate its validity as the law of the land for these purposes.

The kids were killed by guns to which the mother did not have a constitutional right to possess or use.
   3570. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 01:20 PM (#4327692)
   3571. GregD Posted: December 18, 2012 at 01:23 PM (#4327693)
Not when it's just concern trolling, which this is. The smart move is to let emotions cool down and wait for people to get some much needed perspective. The Newtown shootings, while a great tragedy for those affected, is an outlier event and not particularly meaningful for society as a whole. Children are still much, MUCH more likely to drown in a swimming pool, poison themselves with household chemicals/drugs or perish in a car accident than die in a school shooting. It's just not a meaningful danger statistically speaking; certainly not one worth giving up Constitutional rights for.

Whenever some outlier event occurs that results in lots of deaths, Americans line up to give their rights and freedoms to the government in exchange for "security," and it's never a good idea. How's the Patriot Act working out for us?
If you don't limit it to shootings at schools, you end up with different numbers. Just under 3000 kids 19 and under died by firearm in 2007; 1000 died by drowning. The biggest killer of non-infants remains car accidents, and why we don't treat that as a bigger crisis, I don't know.

Your analogy with the Patriot Act depends entirely upon what alleged freedoms are being given up, no? I do think it is central to my understanding of freedom to restrain the government from listening in to my conversations or assassinating me while I am overseas.

I do not think owning weapons that can handle extra-large clips has anything at all to do with my freedom or yours or anyone else's. I accept that others see it differently.

I would accept tragedies in the name of freedom of speech or religion or the right to assemble. But to accept them so someone isn't limited to a clip with 10-20 bullets is absurd to me, since so little depends upon the size of the clip.

On the other hand, many of the same people who are willing to trade lives for the size of their clips have also eagerly signed off on exchanging thousands of lives a year for easy access to SUVs so I am not surprised that people routinely privilege their goal of consumption over the public good. But it is worth noting that protecting consumption is not the primary goal of the bill of rights. Early national governments limited all kinds of things people could buy because being able to buy whatever you wanted was not considered the ultimate measure of human existence.
   3572. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 18, 2012 at 01:27 PM (#4327695)
Let me sum up TGF's position:

"I can't buy and bear an M-16? Okay. No problems."

"I can't buy and bear a .223 with an extended clip? TYRANNY!!"

Just stupid at the heart of the matter, really.
   3573. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: December 18, 2012 at 01:36 PM (#4327699)
I would accept tragedies in the name of freedom of speech or religion or the right to assemble. But to accept them so someone isn't limited to a clip with 10-20 bullets is absurd to me, since so little depends upon the size of the clip.

And if the gun owners believed that argument was made in good faith, rather than made from the same people who advocate for complete bans and overturning of Heller, to be followed by the next incremental "compromise" and the next one, there would be more grounds for down-to-earth pragmatism to take sway.

Pro-choicers don't trust any legislation made by pro-lifers for the identical reason, even if it's the tiniest, most innocuous legislation. The most successful compromises have to be made out of mutual trust.
   3574. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 01:37 PM (#4327701)

I don't disagree...

If 2/3 of the economy is consumer spending, it makes the most sense to put more money into the pockets of people who live hand-to-mouth...

However, as a stalwart defender of Social Security -- I also recognize that we can't have it both ways. I believe in the program - but I also believe in paying for it. Social Security's finances are in decent enough shape that it can certainly afford the revenue hit for a while longer, but the longer the revenue cut is in place -- the harder it becomes to undo. As much as I would like to find a way to extend it, I think I'd have to find the revenue elsewhere to do so.

...and frankly, on a purely personal level - it's probably the part of the equation that has the most direct and immediate impact on my own paycheck.


I agree with you about paying for SS. However, I don't see why we need to be so regressive about it. Por ejemplo, a carbon tax (also regressive, but less so) would alleviate some of the burden and allow for a lower full time payroll tax. So would uncapping benefits. I think after Sandy, there's probably still some momentum towards carbon legislation that might be able to possibly squeak through as part of a bigger deal (a big GOP concession, obviously. Am I being pie in the sky?)

If we're going to remake a huge part of our collective fiscal framework here, might we at least try for a bit more optimization?
   3575. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 18, 2012 at 01:41 PM (#4327702)
And in general being percieved as cowardly is bad for any advocacy group. It is much better to be respected as tough guys than thought of as a bunch of cowards. It is hard to make people take you seriously if they think you are yellow bellied pigs who duck from a fight - that is just political reality.


Not when it's just concern trolling, which this is.


Yes it is. Pity DMN doesn't seem to hang around here anymore, he never did seem to understand what a concern troll was, he could take some pointers from you.

   3576. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 01:44 PM (#4327703)

"Did we just kill a kid?" he asked the man sitting next to him.

"Yeah, I guess that was a kid," the pilot replied.

"Was that a kid?" they wrote into a chat window on the monitor.

Then, someone they didn't know answered, someone sitting in a military command center somewhere in the world who had observed their attack. "No. That was a dog," the person wrote.

They reviewed the scene on video. A dog on two legs?



If it's this stupid fundie/teaper #### about the end of times, or resisting "tyranny," you can understand why it should be paid no heed ... right?


If anyone thinks that a government that fully endorses and defends the behaviour exhibited in the first excerpt (among many, many other things just as reprehensible) won't turn on their own for the right price or if the winds shift, they are a moronic fool. I'm not saying it will happen, but to think that it can't happen displays the reasoning ability of a 3 year old.

   3577. Gotham Dave Posted: December 18, 2012 at 01:45 PM (#4327704)
Beyond the fact that using a "school shooting deaths of children" figure is just as much of a silly justification for lax gun control as it is for restrictive gun control,

Children are still much, MUCH more likely [die from things that have intended, non-lethal uses] than die [from something that is only made for killing].

And I really don't think that point gets made enough.

EDIT: OK, well, the point gets made a lot. But it doesn't ever make any difference to people who have already decided unrestricted gun ownership is a good thing.
   3578. Srul Itza Posted: December 18, 2012 at 01:46 PM (#4327706)
I believe any competent adult has to right to end their life.


The problem, of course, for the non-ideologues out there, is people who end their life in a temporary fit of depression, because the means for doing so are so easily at hand.

The fact that the rate has gone down is testament to the reality that many of these people were not in their right mind when they contemplated suicide and carried it out; when easy means were not at hand, they acted rationally.

The fact that you think it is a good idea that it was made easy for these troubled people to kill themselves, says all that needs to be said about the humanity of libertarian thought.
   3579. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 18, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4327708)
Whenever some outlier event occurs that results in lots of deaths, Americans line up to give their rights and freedoms to the government in exchange for "security," and it's never a good idea. How's the Patriot Act working out for us?


Me personally?
It means just a little bit more paperwork.

What bothers me most about that law, is the asinine name given to it by Congress, when people complain that laws are misnamed that one goes right to the top of the heap imho
   3580. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 18, 2012 at 01:49 PM (#4327712)
Not when it's just concern trolling, which this is.


It is not concern trolling to call the NRA cowards. Concern trolling is pretending to have their best interest at heart and giving them advice which happens to accord with the authors opinion.

In an argument (usually a political debate), a concern troll is someone who is on one side of the discussion, but pretends to be a supporter of the other side with "concerns". The idea behind this is that your opponents will take your arguments more seriously if they think you're an ally. Concern trolls who use fake identities are sometimes known as sockpuppets.


Where did I ever do any of that. I called them cowards - which they are.

It is the internet people this is not that hard.
   3581. Gotham Dave Posted: December 18, 2012 at 01:49 PM (#4327713)
What bothers me most about that law, is the asinine name given to it by Congress
PATRIOT Act is pretty bad but I don't think it can top the pollution-increasing Clear Skies Initiative.
   3582. GregD Posted: December 18, 2012 at 01:52 PM (#4327714)
And if the gun owners believed that argument was made in good faith, rather than made from the same people who advocate for complete bans and overturning of Heller, to be followed by the next incremental "compromise" and the next one, there would be more grounds for down-to-earth pragmatism to take sway.
This is silly. The idea that the gun lobby--not gun owners--would be willing to sign off on all kinds of rational reforms if only those big bad 2% of liberals in Congress didn't want to do more is absurd. The NRA opposes anything that reduces its constituents--manufacturers and retailers--revenues. Full stop. You don't need to invent complex explanations of bad faith and psychic drama to understand what they do. They are an industry and retail group. Which is fine. But don't pretend they're restrained by anything other than their self-interest.

Let's look at obvious counter examples: Democrats will end up signing on to adjustments in the inflation rate for Social Security benefits even though some Republicans would like to eliminate Social Security altogether, because they know those Republicans won't get that done.

Republicans could sign off on mainline liberal Elena Kagan even though they know Bernie Sanders would like to get a socialist on the Supreme Court because they know it ain't ever going to happen.

By your standards, nothing would ever pass because there is always someone on the other side who would like to do more. But in fact your standard explains almost 0% of political behavior.
   3583. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: December 18, 2012 at 01:58 PM (#4327719)
This is silly. The idea that the gun lobby--not gun owners--would be willing to sign off on all kinds of rational reforms if only those big bad 2% of liberals in Congress didn't want to do more is absurd. The NRA opposes anything that reduces its constituents--manufacturers and retailers--revenues. Full stop. You don't need to invent complex explanations of bad faith and psychic drama to understand what they do. They are an industry and retail group. Which is fine. But don't pretend they're restrained by anything other than their self-interest.

The lobby wouldn't, but you'd get more support from the public and the types of Republicans that get elected to governorships. I know plenty of gun owners that aren't crazy Obama=socialist crazies but are suspicious of the motives of the most strident gun control advocates. It's part of the reason why Democrats like Tester and Manchin exist.

If the most extreme gun owners still don't go along? Fine, but at least the gun control advocates would have the moral high ground in the public debate. As it is, there is *zero* reason for a gun owner to trust the motives of liberals on reasonable gun control.
   3584. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:04 PM (#4327729)
The lobby wouldn't, but you'd get more support from the public and the types of Republicans that get elected to governorships.


This is just naive.
   3585. GregD Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:11 PM (#4327737)
The lobby wouldn't, but you'd get more support from the public and the types of Republicans that get elected to governorships. I know plenty of gun owners that aren't crazy Obama=socialist crazies but are suspicious of the motives of the most strident gun control advocates. It's part of the reason why Democrats like Tester and Manchin exist.

Yes! If only Democrats would stop saying we must rip every handgun from every person, then everything would be easy! If only Democrats would say sensible things like can we look at banning certain types of assault weapons? Or extra-large clips. Then everyone would just go along. Why oh why has our President and Congressional leadership spent so much time demanding that they want to pry every bullet from every fingertip, when sensible compromise is so easy to obtain?
   3586. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:12 PM (#4327738)
Well, this was certainly predictable ...


The talk of new gun control measures that has followed Friday's mass shooting in a Newtown, Conn., elementary school has gun owners rushing to the nearest store and picking up new weapons, according to gun store owners and state police background check information.

On Saturday, Virginia state police fielded 4,166 requests for background checks, a 42 percent increase from the same Saturday last year and the highest number of transactions received in a single day since the program was implemented in 1989. Sunday's 1,828 background checks in Virginia represented a 43 percent increase from a year ago. Colorado also set a one-day record for background checks on Saturday with 4,200, the highest number since the program began in 1999.

Paul Decker, the owner of Hunters' Heaven in Hayes, Va., said he saw a big spike in sales over the weekend, with many customers buying the AR type of rifle allegedly used in the Newtown shooting. Gun control advocates want AR and other semi-automatic rifles banned, returning to the Bill Clinton-era policy that was the law of the land from 1994 to 2004. Also flying off the shelves were high-capacity magazines and ammunition, over fears Congress could vote to limit them.

"The people that would normally buy a box [of ammo] are buying four or five boxes," Decker said.
   3587. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:15 PM (#4327745)
buy ammo?

phshaw. make your own.....chumps
   3588. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:16 PM (#4327747)
Yes, yes. Liberals are a bunch of mean ol' jerks who are wrong about everything. Blah, blah, blah...
   3589. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:17 PM (#4327748)
The most successful compromises have to be made out of mutual trust.

And in an environment where that trust is impossible because of the wack jobs on both sides, sensible policy has to be made 50.5-49.5, if necessary.

We centrists aren't obligated to sit around waiting for smart public policy to be made because the nutter poles don't "trust" each other.

As noted above, we're under no obligation to credit or respect nonsense and paranoia and loony "suspicion."

I'm not saying it will happen, but to think that it can't happen displays the reasoning ability of a 3 year old.

And a massive meteor shower or asteroid could hit Earth, too. That doesn't mean individuals have the right to possess a private arsenal of weaponry in preparation therefor.
   3590. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:21 PM (#4327751)
buy ammo?

phshaw. make your own.....chumps


Do you cast your own lead Harvey?
   3591. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:22 PM (#4327752)
Paul Decker, the owner of Hunters' Heaven in Hayes, Va., said he saw a big spike in sales over the weekend, with many customers buying the AR type of rifle allegedly used in the Newtown shooting. Gun control advocates want AR and other semi-automatic rifles banned, returning to the Bill Clinton-era policy that was the law of the land from 1994 to 2004. Also flying off the shelves were high-capacity magazines and ammunition, over fears Congress could vote to limit them.

"The people that would normally buy a box [of ammo] are buying four or five boxes," Decker said.


Yes, if only gun control advocates were less "suspicious," these avatars of Cartesian rationality would be oh-so-happy to compromise ....
   3592. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:22 PM (#4327754)
Do you cast your own lead Harvey?


He has a lead mine in his backyard!

I kid because I love :)
   3593. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:23 PM (#4327755)
cold

i do my own shotgun shells. but a lot of people do that

i cannot recall the last time i purchased rounds for any of my handguns or rifles. i think i have ammunition dating from the 60's tucked away in some of the gun cabinets.

that and my boys give me gun related gifts and the downside of living so d8mn long isthat the gifts start to pile up
   3594. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:27 PM (#4327760)
Well, this was certainly predictable ...

Utterly predictable, and utterly indicative of the mental state of a good part of our gun-worshiping population. Gotta prepare yourself for the coming end of the world, or at least for the second Obama administration. I sure as hell hope that those background checks aren't just perfunctory.
   3595. spike Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:28 PM (#4327762)
3 part piece on the effects of the drone war on its pilots by der Spiegel.

I am reminded of the Doonesbury strip where the Viet Cong soldier is screaming at a US bomber that he hopes the pilots suffer with the knowledge of what they have done, and then it cuts to the cockpit where they are discussing last night's Knicks game
   3596. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:31 PM (#4327765)
And a massive meteor shower or asteroid could hit Earth, too. That doesn't mean individuals have the right to possess a private arsenal of weaponry in preparation therefor.


I wasn't commenting on gun control, just your quoted "tyranny", as if it coming to pass was only something that could be borne out of paranoia. I have no problem with aspects of gun control. I think clip size and storage requirements shoudl be discussed. Canada doesn't have a Second Amendment, but if we had a military that was galivanting around the world deposing democratically elected leaders and bombing civilizations back to the stone age, I'd wish we did.
   3597. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:35 PM (#4327775)
Arizona, coming strong with the cray-cray once again ...

When it came time to formally cast their votes in the presidential race, three Arizona electors, including the Chair of the state Republican party, raised concerns about Barack Obama’s eligibility to be president.

On Monday, the state’s eleven electors officially cast their votes for Mitt Romney – but three of them said they still have questions about the President’s birth certificate. ”I’m not satisfied with what I’ve seen,” said Tom Morrissey, state GOP chair. ”I think for somebody in the president’s position to not have produced a document that looks more legitimate, I have a problem with that.”

“My issue isn’t whether he was born here,” he told KFYI radio on Monday. “I have questions [the birth certificate]. … You know, I have a law enforcement background. I come at this with a little different perspective. It just doesn’t ring right with me.”

According to KNAU.org, Arizona’s public radio station, another elector, Don Ascoli, compared questions about Obama’s birth certificate to the Bill Clinton-Monica Lewinsky scandal. ”The majority of the people had no dream that Bill Clinton did what he did until a young lady had a blue dress and proved he did,” he said. “And he had to come out and apologize to the world because he lied to you and me.”
   3598. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:36 PM (#4327776)
Teachers should arm themselves at school to protect the kids?
Not good enough!
The kids should arm themselves!
   3599. The Good Face Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:37 PM (#4327777)
If you don't limit it to shootings at schools, you end up with different numbers. Just under 3000 kids 19 and under died by firearm in 2007; 1000 died by drowning. The biggest killer of non-infants remains car accidents, and why we don't treat that as a bigger crisis, I don't know.


18 and 19 year olds are not "kids". They are adults. I'm going to assume that's just an honest error on your part, since carving them out would change the figures dramatically. Regardless, people are using school shootings, in particular THIS school shooting, as a justification for gun control, despite the facts demonstrating that school shootings are not actually a meaningful danger at all. This is simply an attempt to accomplish through emotion what cannot be done through reason. And I don't blame the lefties for trying; it's a good move. But they shouldn't be surprised or upset when the right doesn't choose to play their game on their terms.

The "Consititutional" right extends only to guns necessary for self-defense. Even that's a wacko interpretation of the Second Amendment, but we'll stipulate its validity as the law of the land for these purposes.

The kids were killed by guns to which the mother did not have a constitutional right to possess or use.


This is, of course, factually incorrect.

Let me sum up TGF's position:

"I can't buy and bear an M-16? Okay. No problems."

"I can't buy and bear a .223 with an extended clip? TYRANNY!!"

Just stupid at the heart of the matter, really.


And this is, of course, a false summation.
   3600. Morty Causa Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:38 PM (#4327778)
Canada doesn't have a Second Amendment, but if we had a military that was galivanting around the world deposing democratically elected leaders and bombing civilizations back to the stone age, I'd wish we did.

The US doesn't have a second amendment either--not what you think.
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