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Sunday, December 02, 2012

OTP December 2012 - Pushing G.O.P. to Negotiate, Obama Ends Giving In

Mr. Obama, scarred by failed negotiations in his first term and emboldened by a clear if close election to a second, has emerged as a different kind of negotiator in the past week or two, sticking to the liberal line and frustrating Republicans on the other side of the bargaining table.

Bitter Mouse Posted: December 02, 2012 at 11:15 PM | 6172 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   3601. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:38 PM (#4327779)
I wasn't commenting on gun control, just your quoted "tyranny", as if it coming to pass was only something that could be borne out of paranoia.

It's a fundie/teaper idea along with general "paranoia." I don't credit it in the least.

Even in the tiny chance that the US government becomes a domestic "tyranny," the idea that it could be resisted by a few militias of Larry the Cable Guys and their AR-15s is simply batshit insane. It's a loony tunes idea, of no import when it comes to wise policymaking.
   3602. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:42 PM (#4327783)
I know a guy (more of a friend of a friend) who has won at least one Canadian marksmanship title, and he loads all of his own cartridges. I think he casts his own lead, but I'm not sure.
   3603. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:42 PM (#4327784)
i cannot recall the last time i purchased rounds for any of my handguns or rifles. i think i have ammunition dating from the 60's tucked away in some of the gun cabinets.


Harvey has bullets older than most of the posters on this site.

That's not even a joke!
   3604. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4327785)
This is, of course, factually incorrect.

Not at all. The mother's constitutional right is no greater than her right not to have guns sufficient to defend her home banned compeletely. She possessed weaponry far in excess of that, some of which was used to kill a schoolful of 6-year-olds.

She absolutely does not have a constitutional right to possess any type of arms she wishes, in any amount she wishes.
   3605. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4327786)
The US doesn't have a second amendment either--not what you think.


Not sure what you're getting at, but I was just referring to a Constitutional right to bear arms.
   3606. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4327789)
Even in the tiny chance that the US government becomes a domestic "tyranny," the idea that it could be resisted by a few militias of Larry the Cable Guys and their AR-15s is simply batshit insane. It's a loony tunes idea, of no import when it comes to wise policymaking.


Are you serious? You might want to tell that to the cave dwellers in Afghanistan, they seem to be doing a pretty good job of resisting.
   3607. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:51 PM (#4327793)
Are you serious? You might want to tell that to the cave dwellers in Afghanistan, they seem to be doing a pretty good job of resisting.


The Taliban/Al-Q resistance in Af-Pak is armed with something significantly more powerful than AR-15s. Their "light arms" are banned in the US already. But hey, keep dreaming your WOLVERINES! fantasy camps, man.
   3608. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:52 PM (#4327794)
Gun control in the Old West : Fact or Fiction


I'm reading a book about the OK Corral right now which is why I thought of this example. I think a lot of the people that enjoy watching "Tombstone" probably would not have been in favor of giving up their guns either.


also there is a post making the rounds on Facebook from the father of one of the kids that was killed at Columbine from a Congressional hearing from 12 years ago saying that we need to allow Jesus into the schools so something like this won't happen again. I think the name is Darrell Scott.
   3609. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:53 PM (#4327798)
The lobby wouldn't, but you'd get more support from the public and the types of Republicans that get elected to governorships. I know plenty of gun owners that aren't crazy Obama=socialist crazies but are suspicious of the motives of the most strident gun control advocates. It's part of the reason why Democrats like Tester and Manchin exist.

If the most extreme gun owners still don't go along? Fine, but at least the gun control advocates would have the moral high ground in the public debate. As it is, there is *zero* reason for a gun owner to trust the motives of liberals on reasonable gun control.


Eh, for as much as some of you are saying this is not so, this is a completely valid point. Some conservatives DO think liberals want to take all their guns. The best thing for gun control advocates to do is compromise and in so doing marginalize and bring out the crazy in the pro-gun crowd.
   3610. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:54 PM (#4327800)
Maybe the ready warriors from Hunters Heaven can take their shiny new AR-15s and join the Afghan cave-dwellers. Better to fight the tyranny in frontal positions than have to wait until they're in your backyard.
   3611. Morty Causa Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:55 PM (#4327801)


Not sure what you're getting at, but I was just referring to a Constitutional right to bear arms.


There is no blanket constitutional right to bear arms.
   3612. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:58 PM (#4327805)
the idea that it could be resisted by a few militias of Larry the Cable Guys and their AR-15s is simply batshit insane


What if they had a badass, freedom-sounding name like the "Republican Guard"?
   3613. GregD Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:59 PM (#4327806)
Eh, for as much as some of you are saying this is not so, this is a completely valid point. Some conservatives DO think liberals want to take all their guns. The best thing for gun control advocates to do is compromise and in so doing marginalize and bring out the crazy in the pro-gun crowd.
Gun control advocates compromised in the 90s! They surrendered in the 00s! That bought them less than zero, and empowered the crazy pro-gun crowd to an unprecedented degree.

I am in favor of reasonable compromise, but I have zero faith that it will help at all, since the opposition is centered in the commercial interest of very well-funded manufacturers and retailers who will lose profits in any regulation.
   3614. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:59 PM (#4327809)
The best thing for gun control advocates to do is compromise and in so doing marginalize and bring out the crazy in the pro-gun crowd.


What would such a compromise look like? What possible thing could they suggest that would do such a thing?
   3615. spike Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:01 PM (#4327811)
Are you serious? You might want to tell that to the cave dwellers in Afghanistan, they seem to be doing a pretty good job of resisting.

Only because we have some concern over the civilian infrastructure. In any kind of a "real" war they and the entire country would have been utterly destroyed. Not to mention, they get supplies from Saudi billionaires, not Bass Pro Shops. Slight difference.
   3616. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:05 PM (#4327817)
Regarding Afghanistan there is a strong difference between conquering somewhere else and imposing brutality on ones own people. There are many many instances of overthrowing "colonial powers", getting them to go back home.

It is much different dealing with a repressive regime at home. Sometimes they surrender and sometimes they fight to the very bloody end, but there is nowhere to "go back home" to, and so the dynamic is very different.

Not that I think magazines full of bullets will help if the US turns into The People's Republic of Amerika, just this is an apples and Buick comparison.
   3617. Famous Original Joe C Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:06 PM (#4327818)
What if they had a badass, freedom-sounding name like the "Republican Guard"?


Good one.

   3618. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:07 PM (#4327820)
Ditto on that -

Clowns have ideas on both sides have bad ideas - the lefty idea that Obama could realistically just ignore the debt limit (thus pretending that the bonds sold under such conditions wouldn't be subject to onerous markup based on the possibility it would be invalid) for one...


Objection. Condescending.

The idea that the nutter wings of each party are remotely comparable in strength, numbers, or influence is very badly misleading.
   3619. Ron J2 Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:08 PM (#4327821)
#3606 And it's not their AKs that are the key to their resistance. Any time they go head to head they lose. They no longer make any attempt to hold ground against a concerted effort and the US doesn't have the manpower that their own counterinsurgency doctrine say are required. (IIRC it's something on the order of 400,000 men -- and to date the locals that have been trained have ranged between useless and working for the other side)

Their effective weapons IEDs and the occasional use of mortars (and they can't linger long on these attacks), and as noted in last month's thread pretty much everybody is on board with regulating explosives. And while I can't find anything in the plain text of the 2nd ammendment that bars somebody from owning a mortar, I think almost everybody is content that they too are off limits to civilians.

EDIT: lopped off a few zeros. While my first number might be more reasonable it's not what the US doctrine calls for.
   3620. Steve Treder Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:09 PM (#4327823)
The idea that the nutter wings of each party are remotely comparable in strength, numbers, or influence is very badly misleading.

Yes. It's factually wrong.
   3621. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:12 PM (#4327824)
Regardless, people are using school shootings, in particular THIS school shooting, as a justification for gun control, despite the facts demonstrating that school shootings are not actually a meaningful danger at all.


Yeah we shouldn't get all shrill and hysterical like those gutless hippies.

Hey, just out of curiosity, what's the risk of another airplane being hijacked and flown into a building?
   3622. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:12 PM (#4327825)
Not to mention, they get supplies from Saudi billionaires, not Bass Pro Shops. Slight difference.


Oh, and here I thought their weapons came from the US when they were fighting the Russians in the 80's.

There is no blanket constitutional right to bear arms.


There is none, period, in Canada, which was my point. I'm not a US Constitutional scholar, so I don't need to get into the semantics of the 2nd Amendment.
   3623. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:14 PM (#4327827)
what's the risk of another airplane being hijacked and flown into a building?


0.00000000000000015%, thanks to the crack team of highly qualified agents that are the TSA.
   3624. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:15 PM (#4327831)
Their effective weapons IEDs and the occasional use of mortars (and they can't linger long on these attacks), and as noted in last month's thread pretty much everybody is on board with regulating explosives. And while I can't find anything in the plain text of the 2nd ammendment that bars somebody from owning a mortar, I think almost everybody is content that they too are off limits to civilians.


Well, yes. Exactly.

1) There is no general/universal right to bear arms. You do not have a right to purchase an M-16, much less a grenade launcher. If you start trying to manufacture explosives in your home you will go to jail if you don't kill yourself first.

2) Without fully automatic rifles (and lots of ammo), IEDs and RPGs at a minimum, no one is holding off a concerted effort by the United States military to impose it's will by force*.

*should the US military decide to take off the kid gloves, screw "hearts and minds" and just lay down the hammer, AKs, IEDs and RPGs are little more than diversionary fireworks on any "resistance movement's" way to death and dismemberment.

The idea that a gun safe full of .223s is going to defend liberty against a potentially tyrannical US government is laughable. Ask Davey Koresh how that #### turns out.
   3625. Ron J2 Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:15 PM (#4327832)
#3616 One thing pointed out in a long Economist article on Afghanistan is that in many ways the Taliban are the progressive elements of the Pashtun. True, their golden age is roughly the 14th to 15th century but that's forward looking compared to many others.

Oh everybody is totally onside with modern guns.
   3626. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:16 PM (#4327833)
So can I keep my boots on at the airport now?
   3627. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:18 PM (#4327838)
So can I keep my boots on at the airport now?


No, but Harvey can.
   3628. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:21 PM (#4327841)
sam

shoot. i have suits older than that. and i can still wear them.

   3629. BDC Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:24 PM (#4327843)
I'm reading a book about the OK Corral right now

Is it Jeff Guinn's Last Gunfight? Good book, very revealing. It underscores just how appalled people were by such gunfights, at least until a generation had passed and the movies romanticized them.
   3630. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:25 PM (#4327847)
Good call Bob. That's the one.
   3631. spike Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:26 PM (#4327848)
Oh, and here I thought their weapons came from the US when they were fighting the Russians in the 80's.

So are you now agreeing that US "militias" don't have nearly the access to sophisticated arms, especially heavy weapons, that Afghani ones do, and as such, don't pose nearly the threat? I am not sure what point this statement is trying to make - regardless of supplier, the fact is the Islamic militias have access to a lot more than a Bushmaster and a banana clip.
   3632. zonk Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:26 PM (#4327849)

Objection. Condescending.

The idea that the nutter wings of each party are remotely comparable in strength, numbers, or influence is very badly misleading.


heh...

Your objection managed to clip out where I said PRECISELY that:

Most of my... chagrin, I guess... is rooted in the fact the clownish ideas on the left are at least coming from places appropriate (i.e., the internet), while too many of these clowns on the right are actually putting forth these ideas IN congress.


The idea that the debt limit can just be waved away by the executive branch is a clownish idea because it completely ignores the fact that Treasury does not set bond prices; the buyers do... and those buyers are going to want a premium (a BIG premium) on debt that might very well eventually be ruled as invalid.

More clownish ideas -- or a better balance of clownish ideas -- isn't the answer... I'd much prefer that the GOP send its clowns back to the internets where they belong.
   3633. GregD Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:26 PM (#4327850)
18 and 19 year olds are not "kids". They are adults. I'm going to assume that's just an honest error on your part, since carving them out would change the figures dramatically. Regardless, people are using school shootings, in particular THIS school shooting, as a justification for gun control, despite the facts demonstrating that school shootings are not actually a meaningful danger at all. This is simply an attempt to accomplish through emotion what cannot be done through reason. And I don't blame the lefties for trying; it's a good move. But they shouldn't be surprised or upset when the right doesn't choose to play their game on their terms.
I took the CDC figures I found; feel free to do the calculations to excise 19 and 18 year olds. I'm confident shootings will still well outweigh drownings, but as you say, you find the number of kids who are shot irrelevant. Please know that I could care less what you assume is "honest" on my part.
   3634. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:33 PM (#4327856)
shoot. i have suits older than that.


And with the popularity of Mad Men and Boardwalk Empire these days, they're actually fashionable again. Everything, turn, turn, turn.
   3635. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:35 PM (#4327859)
I am not sure what point this statement is trying to make - regardless of supplier, the fact is the Islamic militias have access to a lot more than a Bushmaster and a banana clip.


And let's be clear; if Mikey Wolverines and his pack of high school buddies arm up and strike out to defend America against the American government, they're going to die. And they won't be martyred, any moreso than David Koresh was.
   3636. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:39 PM (#4327867)
if Mikey Wolverines and his pack of high school buddies arm up and strike out to defend America against the American government, they're going to die.

But in their fantasies, they always win. And, hey, that's what's important. A few kindergarten massacres are a small price to pay to preserve the dreams of 60-year-old backwoodsmen.
   3637. Ron J2 Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:42 PM (#4327869)
#3635 Of course Koresh and co. were completely successful in defending themselves against the ATF. Their success earned them much heavier equipment.
   3638. spike Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:42 PM (#4327870)
And lost in this is that the Islamists may be doing a good job at holding off US strategic goals in the region, they are certainly dying in significant numbers to do so, and the tyrants are definitely in charge of the government.
   3639. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:46 PM (#4327874)
So are you now agreeing that US "militias" don't have nearly the access to sophisticated arms, especially heavy weapons, that Afghani ones do, and as such, don't pose nearly the threat? I am not sure what point this statement is trying to make - regardless of supplier, the fact is the Islamic militias have access to a lot more than a Bushmaster and a banana clip.


My point is that guerilla tactics of a dedicated force that are actually defending something they hold dear will always be difficult, if not impossible to beat (unless you go nuclear - then what's the point?). I don't know if you guys realize it, but the "I" in IED stands for improvised, meaning its not a factory made weapon.

The US government and military have a long history of hubris and hegemony, and despite the best attempts of the MSM to portray groups like the Oath Keepers, preppers, 2nd Amendment defenders as "Larry the Cable Guy", the majority are very concerned about the future of their country, for good reason. Of course there are nutter elements amongst them, but its unfair to characterize the whole movement in such a way.



   3640. The Good Face Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:48 PM (#4327875)
I took the CDC figures I found; feel free to do the calculations to excise 19 and 18 year olds. I'm confident shootings will still well outweigh drownings, but as you say, you find the number of kids who are shot irrelevant. Please know that I could care less what you assume is "honest" on my part.


Yes, I can see you care so little that you feel the need to justify your falsehoods.

Knowingly attempting to include 18 and 19 year olds in your count of "children" being killed by gun violence is outright lying. Well, it's refreshing to see that you're honest in your dishonesty.
   3641. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:49 PM (#4327876)
despite the best attempts of the MSM to portray groups like the Oath Keepers, preppers, 2nd Amendment defenders as "Larry the Cable Guy", the majority are very concerned about the future of their country, for good reason.

Their biggest "concern," by leaps and bounds, is the rise of the Coloreds ... another bit of crazy due no heed.
   3642. Swoboda is freedom Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:50 PM (#4327877)
One of the ideas that Bloomberg floated a while ago was having the local governments not buy guns from producers who don't follow restrictions. Since the armed forces and police are such large buyers (either directly or through their officers), could this be effective. Tell you officers that a Colt is not allowed as they do not follow the rules set up. Private citizens could still buy them from other dealers however.
   3643. spike Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:54 PM (#4327883)
I don't know if you guys realize it, but the "I" in IED stands for improvised, meaning its not a factory made weapon.

They are improvised from 155mm artillery shells and anti-tank mines. They don't just Macgyver them out of things from Dollar Tree.
   3644. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:56 PM (#4327884)
#3635 Of course Koresh and co. were completely successful in defending themselves against the ATF. Their success earned them much heavier equipment.


Yep. Success just gets the real guns called in. This isn't theory. This is historical fact.
   3645. GregD Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:57 PM (#4327886)
Knowingly attempting to include 18 and 19 year olds in your count of "children" being killed by gun violence is outright lying. Well, it's refreshing to see that you're honest in your dishonesty.
I will presume you lack basic reading skills. The CDC stats I found list the deaths of children by aggregating ages 0-19. What I found is what I typed in. If you feel like looking deeper to try to find the numbers for 18 and 19 year olds, be my guest.
   3646. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:58 PM (#4327890)
Their biggest "concern," by leaps and bounds, is the rise of the Coloreds ... another bit of crazy due no heed.


You're going Jack Morris on me now, nevermind.
   3647. zonk Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:58 PM (#4327891)
No harm, no foul and all...

But given the previous discussions that Jim nixed, I'd suspect we're at the line of suggested "no further" regarding IEDs and the like... just sayin' is all...
   3648. spike Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:59 PM (#4327892)
My point is that guerilla tactics of a dedicated force that are actually defending something they hold dear will always be difficult, if not impossible to beat ?

All civil wars have a loser, and more often than not it's the rebels.
   3649. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 04:08 PM (#4327897)
This should be required reading for all soldiers, drone "pilots" especially.

NY Post: A Higher Call


“If I ever see or hear of you shooting at a man in a parachute,” Roedel said, “I will shoot you down myself. You follow the rules of war for you — not for your enemy. You fight by rules to keep your humanity.”

Roedel was not alone in this philosophy, and not just among the Germans. Most of these young men now at war — American, British, German — had grown up on the stories of the great World War I fighter pilots: the American Eddie Rickenbacker and Manfred von Richthofen, the German Red Baron.

These were men who fought by a code, who would look each other in the eye mid-air, who would never strafe an enemy plane that was already going down. They had been taught that they very well might survive the war and, if they did, they needed to know that they had fought with honor and as much humanity as possible. It would be the only way they would ever be able to live with themselves.


   3650. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 18, 2012 at 04:09 PM (#4327900)
and despite the best attempts of the MSM to portray groups like the Oath Keepers, preppers, 2nd Amendment defenders as "Larry the Cable Guy", the majority are very concerned about the future of their country, for good reason.


Which is very insulting to the actual Larry the Cable Guy.

the majority are very concerned about the future of their country, for good reason.

I respectfully disagree, the groups you mention are by and large concerned about the future of the US for very BAD reasons, it's people outside those groups who are concerned about the future for good reasons
   3651. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 04:09 PM (#4327901)
#3647 - I wasn't aware of that, but fine by me.
   3652. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 18, 2012 at 04:11 PM (#4327904)
Just so everyone is aware, there were 5-10 comments in this thread that were of the sort that previously required Jim to answer questions about his user base from the FBI. Jim does not want to do that again.

If you think something you are about to type might lead to the FBI asking Jim "so, this guy with UserNameX, what's the deal with him and this comment about Y," don't post that.
   3653. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 18, 2012 at 04:13 PM (#4327908)
Roedel was not alone in this philosophy, and not just among the Germans.

Pretty much alone among Germany's WWII military branches the Luftwaffe actually made an effort to abide by the Geneva Convention in running its POW camps. of course that was because Goring, their titular boss, had zero interest in such affairs, and they managed to keep Himmler out of their business longer than any other branch...
   3654. odds are meatwad is drunk Posted: December 18, 2012 at 04:15 PM (#4327909)
Rickey I dont want to make this a big deal but damn thats crazy that happened here of all places...
   3655. spike Posted: December 18, 2012 at 04:21 PM (#4327915)
This should be required reading for all soldiers, drone "pilots" especially.

Why? I'd rather they read All Quiet On The Western Front. Wars are nasty horrible affairs - applying a false veneer of civilization and rules just makes them last longer. It's a shiatty business that kills everyone and everything - civilians, children, livestock and your grandma - the sooner folks realize that, the sooner they either give up or get on with it.
   3656. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 04:26 PM (#4327920)
3652. Rickey is America's Favorite Neighbor Posted: December 18, 2012 at 04:11 PM (#4327904)
Just so everyone is aware, there were 5-10 comments in this thread that were of the sort that previously required Jim to answer questions about his user base from the FBI. Jim does not want to do that again.

If you think something you are about to type might lead to the FBI asking Jim "so, this guy with UserNameX, what's the deal with him and this comment about Y," don't post that.


Land of the free!! And I'm the paranoid one. Jesus Christ. Consider this my last post on any political/economic/military/law enforcement/trade policy/history topic. I may still join the OTP fray when the conversation turns to cooking or fluffy bunnies or other similar things that are still allowed to be discussed in the US of ####### A.
   3657. The Good Face Posted: December 18, 2012 at 04:27 PM (#4327922)
Knowingly attempting to include 18 and 19 year olds in your count of "children" being killed by gun violence is outright lying. Well, it's refreshing to see that you're honest in your dishonesty.

I will presume you lack basic reading skills. The CDC stats I found list the deaths of children by aggregating ages 0-19. What I found is what I typed in. If you feel like looking deeper to try to find the numbers for 18 and 19 year olds, be my guest.


You posted a number of "children" killed by firearms that included 18 and 19 year olds without any comment or acknowledgement. I pointed out the invalidity of using a number based on such faulty definitions and, in an act of good faith, assumed you'd made an honest mistake and overlooked that detail. You then angrily denied such a mistake, stating that you knew exactly what you were posting and making it clear that your intention was to deceive.

You wanted to play cutesy games with the facts to make yourself and your arguments look good and you got caught. Next time either tell the truth or try not to lie so transparently.
   3658. Dan The Mediocre Posted: December 18, 2012 at 04:29 PM (#4327926)
Just so everyone is aware, there were 5-10 comments in this thread that were of the sort that previously required Jim to answer questions about his user base from the FBI. Jim does not want to do that again.


That would explain why the thread is about 9 posts behind where it was. Pretty crazy.

I don't know if it's a step up or a step down from posting "Bea Arthur naked" to see what sorts of ads we'd get.
   3659. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: December 18, 2012 at 04:45 PM (#4327941)
Yep. Success just gets the real guns called in. This isn't theory. This is historical fact.

Is there a constitutional justification for permitting "law enforcement" (as distinguished from military forces) more powerful weapons than "civilians" can get?
Maybe it's just "We're the government, so we win." But I guess I'm hoping all this might end up in a somehow less-militarized police force.
   3660. zonk Posted: December 18, 2012 at 04:46 PM (#4327943)
Just so everyone is aware, there were 5-10 comments in this thread that were of the sort that previously required Jim to answer questions about his user base from the FBI. Jim does not want to do that again.

If you think something you are about to type might lead to the FBI asking Jim "so, this guy with UserNameX, what's the deal with him and this comment about Y," don't post that.



Land of the free!! And I'm the paranoid one. Jesus Christ. Consider this my last post on any political/economic/military/law enforcement/trade policy/history topic. I may still join the OTP fray when the conversation turns to cooking or fluffy bunnies or other similar things that are still allowed to be discussed in the US of ####### A.


I don't think it was necessarily quite that nefarious...

The only reason I "re"-brought it up is because the discussion was getting close to, let's say, recipe discussions... which, of course, any idiot could probably figure out without a google hit to bbtf, but I was just sayin' that would probably be the bridge too far and why not save Jim the hassle.

   3661. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: December 18, 2012 at 04:51 PM (#4327947)
I guess what means is the Feds will be seeing pictures of your "junk" that you've texted to your girlfriend faster than she will;.
   3662. zonk Posted: December 18, 2012 at 04:59 PM (#4327950)
I guess what means is the Feds will be seeing pictures of your "junk" that you've texted to your girlfriend faster than she will;.


Only a problem if you texted it with the question "Is this too small?"
   3663. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 05:05 PM (#4327953)
David Letterman:

“You drop your kid off and you don’t see him again? Honestly? That’s really life now? That’s what it’s going to be?” Letterman asked.

While Letterman said he thinks gun control is not the only answer, he questioned why the killer’s mother, Nancy Lanza, had semiautomatic weapons with high-capacity clips in her home.


Good question, Dave. Why did that kid's mother have semiautomatic weapons with high-capacity clips in her home? In Newtown, Connecticut.

Why?
   3664. BDC Posted: December 18, 2012 at 05:12 PM (#4327955)
If you think something you are about to type might lead to the FBI asking Jim "so, this guy with UserNameX, what's the deal with him and this comment about Y," don't post that

Believe me, every time I'm tempted to argue that Michael Young is a Hall of Famer, that exact dialogue runs through my head.
   3665. steagles Posted: December 18, 2012 at 05:19 PM (#4327959)
i'm not sure if this has been brought up previously, but something else to point out about "preppers" is that almost all of them have made the decision that they would be willing to kill another person. regardless of however innocuous these people may present themselves as being, they are not harmless.
   3666. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 18, 2012 at 05:19 PM (#4327960)
Consider this my last post on any political/economic/military/law enforcement/trade policy/history topic.


coward
   3667. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: December 18, 2012 at 05:26 PM (#4327963)
Only a problem if you texted it with the question "Is this too small?"


I always blame the JPEG........I mean if I ever have done that of course.
   3668. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 05:27 PM (#4327964)

As has been seen following other mass shootings, there's a strong segment of the gun rights lobby that says the answer to events like the one in Newtown is more guns in more places. But they've said the recent massacre shows how important it is to put guns into elementary schools, where even gun-friendly states like Tennessee don't currently allow them.

State Sen. Frank Niceley (R) told TPM on Tuesday he believes it's time for that to change. He plans to introduce legislation in the next session, which begins Jan. 8, that will require all schools to have an armed staff member of some kind. The current language of the bill -- which is in its early form -- would allow for either a so-called "resource officer" (essentially an armed police officer, the kind which most Tennessee high schools have already) or an armed member of the faculty or staff in every school in the state. The choice would allow schools that can't afford a resource officer to fulfill the requirement without having to pay for anything beyond the cost of the training and, presumably, the weapon. But Niceley said schools should use the wiggle room to train and keep on hand armed staff not in uniform.

That's the best way to protect students, he said.

"Say some madman comes in. The first person he would probably try to take out was the resource officer. But if he doesn't know which teacher has training, then he wouldn't know which one had [a gun]," Niceley said by phone. "These guys are obviously cowards anyway and if someone starts shooting back, they're going to take cover, maybe go ahead and commit suicide like most of them have."


Well, at least the future is likely to be fascinating from a comparative policy outcome standpoint ...
   3669. formerly dp Posted: December 18, 2012 at 05:27 PM (#4327965)
Consider this my last post on any political/economic/military/law enforcement/trade policy/history topic.
I read the posts before they were deleted, and I think you're overreacting. I am generally against deleting posts, but in this case, they were the textbook definition of asking for trouble.
   3670. Steve Treder Posted: December 18, 2012 at 05:28 PM (#4327967)
Presumably the FBI won't get their knickers in a twist about this:

McArdle is so resigned to any gun laws failing to prevent gun violence that she concludes that people should be encouraged to "gang rush" shooters rather than hide:

'I'd also like us to encourage people to gang rush shooters, rather than following their instincts to hide; if we drilled it into young people that the correct thing to do is for everyone to instantly run at the guy with the gun, these sorts of mass shootings would be less deadly, because even a guy with a very powerful weapon can be brought down by 8-12 unarmed bodies piling on him at once. Would it work? Would people do it? I have no idea; all I can say is that both these things would be more effective than banning rifles with pistol grips.'

So, in sum: the chances of achieving anything with any gun legislation are so low that in these circumstances, people should resign themselves to probable death by running at the person firing a gun in the hope that enough people will follow that their likely death will not be in vain.

As Jonathan Chait points out at NY Magazine, this is an absurd proposition:

'Are you kidding me? You think gun control is impractical, so your plan is to turn the entire national population, including young children, into a standby suicide squad? Through private initiative, of course. It's way more feasible than gun control!

...

Unless I am missing a very subtle parody of libertarianism, McArdle's plan to teach children to launch banzai charges against mass murderers is the single worst solution to any problem I have ever seen offered in a major publication. Newsweek, I award this essay no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.'
   3671. steagles Posted: December 18, 2012 at 05:34 PM (#4327974)
Presumably the FBI won't get their knickers in a twist about this:
i think i already saw that movie. it was called "united 93"
   3672. puck Posted: December 18, 2012 at 05:41 PM (#4327982)
I always blame the JPEG........I mean if I ever have done that of course.

C'mon, it's lossy compression!
   3673. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 18, 2012 at 05:41 PM (#4327984)
As has been seen following other mass shootings, there's a strong segment of the gun rights lobby that says the answer to events like the one in Newtown is more guns in more places.



Ok, name ONE instance where a spree killer has been cut short in mid-rampage by an armed citizen

just ONE.



   3674. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 18, 2012 at 05:42 PM (#4327985)
Again, there are only a few topics which we know for certain are going to flag consideration from outside sources. The comments that Jim closed in this thread were, loosely speaking, concerning the safety and protection of the president. #### everyone *knows* is out of bounds. So really, it's pretty simple. Stay in bounds. Don't make Jim's life difficult.
   3675. Tripon Posted: December 18, 2012 at 05:43 PM (#4327986)

"Say some madman comes in. The first person he would probably try to take out was the resource officer. But if he doesn't know which teacher has training, then he wouldn't know which one had [a gun]," Niceley said by phone. "These guys are obviously cowards anyway and if someone starts shooting back, they're going to take cover, maybe go ahead and commit suicide like most of them have."


Well, this won't cause any accidental deaths!
   3676. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 18, 2012 at 05:45 PM (#4327990)
Ok, name ONE instance where a spree killer has been cut short in mid-rampage by an armed citizen


I think "mid-rampage" is doing a lot of work in this sentence.
   3677. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 18, 2012 at 05:45 PM (#4327991)
   3678. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 18, 2012 at 05:48 PM (#4327992)
"Say some madman comes in. The first person he would probably try to take out was the resource officer. But if he doesn't know which teacher has training, then he wouldn't know which one had [a gun]," Niceley said by phone. "These guys are obviously cowards anyway and if someone starts shooting back, they're going to take cover, maybe go ahead and commit suicide like most of them have."


These are some of the stupidest people on the planet.
   3679. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 05:50 PM (#4327994)

Ok, name ONE instance where a spree killer has been cut short in mid-rampage by an armed citizen

just ONE.



Luke Woodham
   3680. rr Posted: December 18, 2012 at 05:57 PM (#4327995)
According to the link, the guy who confronted Luke Woodham had a Colt .45.
   3681. The Good Face Posted: December 18, 2012 at 05:58 PM (#4327996)
According to the link, the guy who confronted Luke Woodham had a Colt .45.


Works every time.
   3682. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 18, 2012 at 06:00 PM (#4327997)
According to the link, the guy who confronted Luke Woodham had a Colt .45.


It was 1997. Woodham was constrained to a single shot deer rifle that had to be reloaded manually. While the principal's actions likely saved lives at the secondary target (the junior high) the assault weapons ban that was in effect from 1994-2004 almost certainly saved lives too. If Woodham had had access to a large clip semi-automatic, more than 9 people would have been shot that day.
   3683. Gotham Dave Posted: December 18, 2012 at 06:00 PM (#4327998)
"Say some madman comes in. The first person he would probably try to take out was the resource officer. But if he doesn't know which teacher has training, then he wouldn't know which one had [a gun]," Niceley said by phone. "These guys are obviously cowards anyway and if someone starts shooting back, they're going to take cover, maybe go ahead and commit suicide like most of them have."
Ah, yes, suicidal madmen. Known for their cowardice.

America needs to cut this "Anyone who does something I don't like is a coward" bullshit.
   3684. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 18, 2012 at 06:03 PM (#4328003)
Works every time.


Wherein "every time" means "that one time in 1997."
   3685. Lassus Posted: December 18, 2012 at 06:05 PM (#4328005)
Land of the free!! And I'm the paranoid one. Jesus Christ. Consider this my last post on any political/economic/military/law enforcement/trade policy/history topic. I may still join the OTP fray when the conversation turns to cooking or fluffy bunnies or other similar things that are still allowed to be discussed in the US of ####### A.

Jesus, grow up.
   3686. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 06:07 PM (#4328006)
Gang-rushing the attacker is a proven method of stopping them prior to police arrival. Worked in Arizona when Gifford was shot.

Detailed list of shootings
   3687. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: December 18, 2012 at 06:08 PM (#4328007)
While the principal's actions likely saved lives at the secondary target (the junior high) the assault weapons ban that was in effect from 1994-2004 almost certainly saved lives too.

From the National Academy of Sciences (presumably acceptable since many here quote them when it comes to global warming things)


In 1994, Congress enacted the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act, which banned the importation and manufacture of certain military-style semiautomatic “assault” weapons and ammunition magazines capable of holding more than 10 rounds (National Institute of Justice, 1997). Assault weapons and large-capacity magazines manufactured before the effective date of the ban were grandfathered and thus legal to own and transfer. These guns are believed to be particularly dangerous because they facilitate the rapid firing of high numbers of shots. While assault weapons and large-capacity magazines are used only in a modest fraction of gun crimes, the premise of the ban was that a decrease in their use may reduce gunshot victimization, particularly victimizations involving multiple wounds or multiple victims (Roth and Koper, 1997).

A recent evaluation of the short-term effects of the 1994 federal assault weapons ban did not reveal any clear impacts on gun violence outcomes (Koper and Roth, 2001b). Using state-level Uniform Crime Reports data on gun homicides, the authors of this study suggest that the potential impact of the law on gun violence was limited by the continuing availability of assault weapons through the ban’s grandfathering provision and the relative rarity with which the banned guns were used in crime before the ban. Indeed, as the authors concede and other critics suggest (e.g., Kleck, 2001), given the nature of the intervention, the maximum potential effect of the ban on gun violence outcomes would be very small and, if there were any observable effects, very difficult to disentangle from chance yearly variation and other state and local gun violence initiatives that took place simultaneously. In a subsequent paper on the effects of the assault weapons ban on gun markets, Koper and Roth (2001a) found that, in the short term, the prices of assault weapons in both primary and legal secondary markets rose substantially at the time of the ban, and this may have reduced the availability of the assault weapons to criminals. However, this increase in price was short-lived as a surge in assault weapon production in the months prior to the ban and the availability of legal substitutes caused prices to fall back to nearly preban levels. The ban is also weakened by the ease with which legally available guns and magazines can be altered to evade the intent of the ban. The results of these two studies should be interpreted with caution, since any trends observed in the relatively short study time period (24-month follow-up period) are unlikely to predict long-term trends accurately.


   3688. Gotham Dave Posted: December 18, 2012 at 06:10 PM (#4328010)
Gang-rushing the attacker is a proven method of stopping them prior to police arrival. Worked in Arizona when Gifford was shot.
Of course it works, but it's hard to think of a more terrible Plan A.
   3689. puck Posted: December 18, 2012 at 06:10 PM (#4328011)
Ok, name ONE instance where a spree killer has been cut short in mid-rampage by an armed citizen

just ONE.

This Atlantic article mentions 3, though in one case off-duty cops were involved and in the other it was a former cop:

In 1997, a disturbed high-school student named Luke Woodham stabbed his mother and then shot and killed two people at Pearl High School in Pearl, Mississippi. He then began driving toward a nearby junior high to continue his shooting spree, but the assistant principal of the high school, Joel Myrick, aimed a pistol he kept in his truck at Woodham, causing him to veer off the road. Myrick then put his pistol to Woodham’s neck and disarmed him. On January 16, 2002, a disgruntled former student at the Appalachian School of Law in Grundy, Virginia, had killed three people, including the school’s dean, when two students, both off-duty law-enforcement officers, retrieved their weapons and pointed them at the shooter, who ended his killing spree and surrendered. In December 2007, a man armed with a semiautomatic rifle and two pistols entered the New Life Church in Colorado Springs and killed two teenage girls before a church member, Jeanne Assam—a former Minneapolis police officer and a volunteer church security guard—shot and wounded the gunman, who then killed himself.


Then there was the time Ransom Stoddard took down Liberty Valance.
   3690. Lassus Posted: December 18, 2012 at 06:11 PM (#4328012)
From the National Academy of Sciences (presumably acceptable since many here quote them when it comes to global warming things)

Sam references 10 years, while the study references two years.
   3691. The Good Face Posted: December 18, 2012 at 06:12 PM (#4328013)
Works every time.


Wherein "every time" means "that one time in 1997."


The joke. You missed it.

It was 1997. Woodham was constrained to a single shot deer rifle that had to be reloaded manually. While the principal's actions likely saved lives at the secondary target (the junior high) the assault weapons ban that was in effect from 1994-2004 almost certainly saved lives too. If Woodham had had access to a large clip semi-automatic, more than 9 people would have been shot that day.


But seriously, you're displaying your ignorance here. The assault weapons ban most certainly did not limit people to "single shot deer rifles". For example, the Ruger Mini was (and is) a relatively cheap, easily available semi-automatic rifle chambered in .223 or 7.62x39; the most common assault rifle cartridges. It was commonly available during the Clinton assault weapon ban with a 10 round magazine and is every bit as dangerous as an AR-15 clone like the Bushmaster.
   3692. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 06:14 PM (#4328015)

Five Assault Rifles You Can Pick up at Walmart [PHOTOS]


How is a pump action shotgun an assault rifle?
   3693. Gotham Dave Posted: December 18, 2012 at 06:14 PM (#4328016)
I have to say, I'm impressed with TGF and DJS endorsing more comprehensive bans and gun seizures.
   3694. Lassus Posted: December 18, 2012 at 06:16 PM (#4328017)
Wherein "every time" means "that one time in 1997."

The joke. You missed it.


Think Lando.
   3695. rr Posted: December 18, 2012 at 06:17 PM (#4328018)
The joke. You missed it.


I actually got that one. Took a second, though.
   3696. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 18, 2012 at 06:17 PM (#4328019)
Sam references 10 years, while the study references two years.


Sam also says "almost certainly" for a reason.
   3697. Srul Itza Posted: December 18, 2012 at 06:18 PM (#4328020)
school shootings are not actually a meaningful danger at all.


And yet, they keep happening.
   3698. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 06:20 PM (#4328022)
How is a pump action shotgun an assault rifle?


Or *anything* chambered for .22LR ...
   3699. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 06:22 PM (#4328023)
Of course it works, but it's hard to think of a more terrible Plan A.


Huh? Do you have a better plan? Is it the plan for dealing with grizzlies in Alaska - go out into grizzly country with someone you can outrun? Never been in the situation so I can't say for sure how I would react, but I would like to think I would rather get shot in the chest trying to tackle someone than be shot in the head while trying to hide in a corner.
   3700. rr Posted: December 18, 2012 at 06:25 PM (#4328026)
I think he meant "terrible" as in "horrific" not "very stupid."
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