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Sunday, December 02, 2012

OTP December 2012 - Pushing G.O.P. to Negotiate, Obama Ends Giving In

Mr. Obama, scarred by failed negotiations in his first term and emboldened by a clear if close election to a second, has emerged as a different kind of negotiator in the past week or two, sticking to the liberal line and frustrating Republicans on the other side of the bargaining table.

Bitter Mouse Posted: December 02, 2012 at 11:15 PM | 6172 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   4101. Dale Sams Posted: December 20, 2012 at 05:51 PM (#4329606)
Flip?
   4102. Dale Sams Posted: December 20, 2012 at 05:54 PM (#4329609)
I'm watching Thirteen Days, the worst part of Costner's accent? It's so unnessecery. Costner's playing the same part as in many films. The everyman. Us. He could have kept his perfectly fine, flat normal accent and it would have worked a billion times better. Or just throw in the occasional inflection. Nobawdy wawwnts to heah about the gawdamn CAW.
   4103. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 20, 2012 at 05:54 PM (#4329610)
Where did I say you were trolling? I never did, must be your bias I guess.

#4094 strongly implied my comment wasn't a good-faith question.

Is that an attempt at a serious question because there are multiple examples of past scientists coming out with theories only to have others tear their work to pieces for other than professional reasons.

The question was about the persistence and continued impact of biases, among people supposedly dedicated to bias-free output, even after such biases have been identified.
   4104. rr Posted: December 20, 2012 at 06:00 PM (#4329617)
Had lunch with a buddy yesterday who is both a liberal Democrat and a gun guy (owns several guns; shoots very regularly); he said a couple of things that were pretty similar to what Swoboda said in 4097.
   4105. formerly dp Posted: December 20, 2012 at 06:05 PM (#4329620)
I've been told that personal and institutional biases in the media rarely if ever "influence what sorts of questions get asked about a subject," what stories get written, etc.
No, you haven't. In fact, I specifically discussed framing, selection, and coverage bias. The question is if this bias is a) systemically consistent, and 2) "liberal". The literature on the subject is extensive, if you'd like to add nuance to your understanding of the issue.
   4106. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: December 20, 2012 at 06:18 PM (#4329628)
Zero Dark 30 Torture scenes are Grossly inaccurate Senators say.

What are the odds that the Senators didn't actually see the movie and are reacting from 2nd hand sources?
   4107. GregD Posted: December 20, 2012 at 06:31 PM (#4329634)
About equal to the odds that the movie scenes are bullshit?

I'd guess both things are true.
   4108. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 20, 2012 at 06:53 PM (#4329641)
Srul! Boychick, good news from the front! Our Zionist War on Christmas is progressing nicely.

When it comes to pushing the multicultural, anti-Christian agenda, you find Jewish judges, Jewish journalists and the largely Jewish funded ACLU at the forefront.


See, only a self-hating Jew could say something like that and not immediately be labelled an anti-semite- actually I should re-phrase that- he's not a self-hating jew, he merely hates other, secular jews...


oddly enough when he casually refers to three nations as being synonymous with the religion preferred by their majorities, he managed to pick 3 where that label is in fact controversial within those countries- India is a Hindu Country- well actually- whether or not India is a "Hindu Country" or a secular multi-ethnic country is in fact a matter of much concern within India- ditto Turkey as a Muslim country- Attaturk would be rolling in his grave at this guy's casual assertion.

In fact there is a distinction between whether a country is a "christian country" or merely a country with a christian majority

   4109. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 20, 2012 at 06:54 PM (#4329642)
No, you haven't. In fact, I specifically discussed framing, selection, and coverage bias.

Yes, you've mentioned them, but I don't recall you explaining how or why they exist if they're not the result of personal and/or institutional political biases.
   4110. zonk Posted: December 20, 2012 at 07:23 PM (#4329650)
Oh man...

The Hill's latest whip count now has 23 Republicans defecting on the 'Plan B' vote...

Boehner just got a rules vote passed - but this is largely just a technical vote that makes it possible to vote on what are technically two separate bills (the tax bill and the spending sequestration -- which essentially removes ALL of the Defense cuts and shifts them over to other parts of the budget -- it's the goodie he had to give the TPers to even give Plan B a shot).... It would have been the mother of all debacles if he hadn't even got the rules vote - but he still lost 13 Republicans on that.

With 23 Republicans now on the record as "No" Plan B votes - Boehner can only afford to lose one more Republican before he'd need Democratic votes.

Technically, the rules vote passed 217-197 -- but it's not clear about the non-voters (not unusual for rules votes not to have full/435 total votes) are not voting tonight... so technically, he MIGHT have more breathing room depending on who's in town and who votes.

It's gonna be close... if he loses this vote - I'd be tempted to say the Boehner speakership is over, but then -- I strongly get the sense that no one on the GOP really wants the job (Cantor does, but I don't think he does under the current circumstances).
   4111. zonk Posted: December 20, 2012 at 07:30 PM (#4329653)
...and now it's 24 -- with 26 Republicans on the fence.

The GOP fence-sitters include Flake (who goes to the Senate next year), Bachmann, Price, Kingery, Todd Akin, Tim Scott (also Senate bound in January and supposedly tight with DeMint), and Chaffetz.... among those who are either dangerous wildcards or might have axes to grind.

The possible Dems look to be Dan Boren (retiring, won't be back in January) from OK, Ben Chandler (lost, won't be back in January... but he looks like lobbyist bound and word is he might want to run for something again), and Dennis Kucinich (crazy, also gone in January).

So --Boehner might have 3 more votes on the GOP side he can shed, depending on whether he can get all three undecided Dems. Word is that Boren would vote yes, no clue on Chandler and Kucinich.
   4112. zonk Posted: December 20, 2012 at 07:59 PM (#4329664)
...and 25.

So - assuming full House, he now needs at least one Dem vote (and it's all but confirmed that Boren will vote yes). 24 remaining GOP undecideds.

I don't think he's got the votes...

The Plan B "Christmas tree Goodies" -- essentially, the spending side (which also guts ACA, Dodd-Frank, and essentially restores ALL of the Defense sequestration cuts, but moves them all to other parts of the budget) only passed 215-209. And that's the bill that NO REPUBLICAN would really argue with because it says nothing about taxes. It simply deals with the spending cuts side - and does so by eliminating all the DoD cuts, but keeping the baseline 10% in place by reallocating the cuts elsewhere. It got larded up with a ton of unrelated goodies - ACA/Dodd-Frank repeals, etc.

Vote on the revenue/tax side of Plan B coming up in 5 minutes.

Furious arm-twisting happening on the GOP side - everything from committee chairs being threatened to committee assignments being promised.
   4113. zonk Posted: December 20, 2012 at 08:13 PM (#4329671)
House just unexpectedly recessed with the Plan B tax bill up in the air...

Boehner doesn't have the votes.

I'm hazy on House rules - I'm not sure if he can yank the vote after the Rules vote slating it earlier today or not - but it's pretty clear that they've recessed to try to whip more votes.

EDIT: He can just yank the vote... Boehner's office now says vote "probably" in 90 minutes.
   4114. zonk Posted: December 20, 2012 at 09:09 PM (#4329713)
Dead.

Boehner just pulled his own bill.

No vote on Plan B.

Wow. House will recess until after Christmas.

Stunning. How does Boehner survive?

The GOP couldn't even get a naked "Not our fault" fig leaf passed.
   4115. Steve Treder Posted: December 20, 2012 at 09:40 PM (#4329735)
How does Boehner survive?

At this juncture, I really don't think he does.

You go, GOP!
   4116. Tripon Posted: December 20, 2012 at 09:54 PM (#4329746)
Cantor for Speaker of the House?
   4117. Sonic Youk Posted: December 20, 2012 at 10:01 PM (#4329754)
good grief, how does skilled legislator like Boehner fall on his sword like this? A meaningless show bill?

A bit of schadenfreude, but this is bad news. We're almost surely going over the cliff, now I'm worried about the debt ceiling. How long is there between speaker elections and hitting the limit?
   4118. zonk Posted: December 20, 2012 at 10:03 PM (#4329755)
Of course, Cantor earlier today was saying Plan B would pass... I'm not sure he even wants the job at this point - I mean, let's say you're a TP ideologue stalwart, but not a total whackjob... Clearly, you've got at least two dozen -- maybe closer to 3 or even 4 dozen -- complete whack jobs in your caucus. Would you want to be on the hook for being blamed every time they toss a fit?

Who in the world would even want the job? I suppose you get a pay hike, you get to go on TV, but you're doomed to be a failure.

   4119. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 20, 2012 at 10:04 PM (#4329756)
interesting

the speaker told everyone to go home for christmas.
   4120. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 20, 2012 at 10:04 PM (#4329757)
sonic

speaker election is 1/3
   4121. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 20, 2012 at 10:18 PM (#4329771)
#4094 strongly implied my comment wasn't a good-faith question.


As a serious question and you will get a serious answer. Ask a flip question and you'll get a flip answer.

What you infer from my flip answer is your bias, not mine.
   4122. Srul Itza Posted: December 20, 2012 at 10:22 PM (#4329773)
There are a couple of easy tech fixes that should be integrated into guns to make them more safe.


These are good ideas, but with 300 million guns already currently in circulation, the effects would be muted for a long time.
   4123. Dale Sams Posted: December 20, 2012 at 10:22 PM (#4329774)
Can some foreign policy incident come up please? I have no grasp on domestic matters.
   4124. Srul Itza Posted: December 20, 2012 at 10:26 PM (#4329776)
Srul! Boychick, good news from the front! Our Zionist War on Christmas is progressing nicely.


Bad news from the front, Bubbeleh. Hearing nothing but Christmas carols on the radio since before Thanksgiving, I have concluded that we have been overrun.

If there ever was a war on Christmas, Christmas won.
   4125. zonk Posted: December 20, 2012 at 10:27 PM (#4329777)
At this stage, the only way I see any way forward in the House -- regardless of whether it's Boehner or someone else leading it -- is for the House GOP to essentially get some sort of 'shadow caucus adjunct' from the Dem side... some manner of 20-30-40 House Democrats they can regularly tap for votes to marry together with all but 30-40 Republicans to get a majority.

Given these developments, I truly do not see ANY way the House can do anything without that coming to pass - and at minimum, there's a debt ceiling vote happening next year that pretty much HAS to pass, even if you're of a mind that unbreakable gridlock is a good thing on all else.

Seriously, whomever the next House speaker is - it's time to accept that it's no longer possible to run this congress in the standard method it's been run.

We do not have a parliamentary-type legislature -- if we did, this would be the end of Boehner -- but I just cannot see a workable House that doesn't essentially become a 'parliamentary system' in all but name. I mean, the Senate is dysfunctional - but this just rises to a whole new level once you do the appropriate park adjustments by chamber.
   4126. Srul Itza Posted: December 20, 2012 at 10:31 PM (#4329783)
We're almost surely going over the cliff


So is Boehner Thelma, or Louise?

And since I don't get any news by television or radio, is it pronounced Boner? And if not, why the hell not?
   4127. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 20, 2012 at 10:32 PM (#4329784)
zonk

somebody blew this up. folks wanted to get it done, wanted to go home, lick their wounds and gird up for the debt ceiling scrap

   4128. Howie Menckel Posted: December 20, 2012 at 10:33 PM (#4329785)
BANE-r

.........

factcheck.org jumping in

http://factcheck.org/2012/12/gun-rhetoric-vs-gun-facts/

"The mass shooting in Newtown, Conn., has reignited a national debate on gun control. As elected leaders begin the dialogue, some facts are clear — there has been a massive increase in gun sales. Some things are not so clear — such as whether there is causation between more guns and more violent crimes. And some are contrary to the general impression — for example, the rate of gun murders is down, not up......

Rep. Louie Gohmert said that “every time … conceal-carry [gun laws] have been allowed the crime rate has gone down.” But that is far from a settled issue in academia."

I like it best when they don't make anybody completely happy...

   4129. Srul Itza Posted: December 20, 2012 at 10:37 PM (#4329789)
BANE-r


UNACCEPTABLE!

Where are Beavis and Butthead when we really need them (assuming they haven't already been elected to Congress)?

If we all start spelling it Boner, and pronouncing it Boner, the rest of the World will come along.

Who's with me?
   4130. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 20, 2012 at 10:39 PM (#4329791)
If there ever was a war on Christmas, Christmas won.


There was a war. Jesus lost. Capitalism won.
   4131. odds are meatwad is drunk Posted: December 20, 2012 at 10:39 PM (#4329792)
I'm Spartacus!




   4132. zonk Posted: December 20, 2012 at 10:45 PM (#4329796)
somebody blew this up. folks wanted to get it done, wanted to go home, lick their wounds and gird up for the debt ceiling scrap


I just can't see it HW, I just can't see it...

Cantor was in the media today promising Plan B would pass... He's not hurt as much as Boehner by this, but he's at least on record for it. Paul Ryan spoke in favor of it on the House floor and was supposedly even helping to whip votes. Grover Norquist gave it his OK.

It's time to face facts... if the inmates aren't running the asylum, then they surely have far, far too much power in their hands.

This didn't get scuttled - it got a slow unraveling.... There were about a dozen solid GOP no votes and 25-30 fence sitters ever since Boehner planned to put this on the record. Ordinarily in such circumstances, when leadership puts the vote up - they get enough of those leaners... In this case - the ONLY movement from those leaners was away from caucus leadership. The "no" votes didn't bounce around -- they slowly grew... from 12 to 15 to 20 to 25 and by most accounts, up to 30-35 by the end. After Grover Norquist essentially gave the GOP an out by saying this wouldn't break the pledge -- he then, a few hours later issued a statement saying that his earlier statements shouldn't be viewed as an 'endorsement'... Freedomworks issued a statement supporting Plan B... then did a 180 flip-flop about 3 hours later.

Face it - you've got a Frankenstein on your hands and he's now stomping villages. You gotta put him down - everyone else has tried, believe me - but it's clear only the Republican party itself can do anything about the 2-3-4 dozen House Republicans that are simply unworkable as Representatives.
   4133. Mefisto Posted: December 20, 2012 at 10:53 PM (#4329804)
I think you guys may be misinterpreting this whole charade. As I see it, the point was never to pass Plan B per se. If it did pass, fine. But if it didn't, that's ok too. The argument will now be that if Boehner couldn't get "even this" to pass, even though he "tried SO hard", then Obama and the Dems need to make more concessions.
   4134. Tripon Posted: December 20, 2012 at 10:57 PM (#4329807)
I think you guys may be misinterpreting this whole charade. As I see it, the point was never to pass Plan B per se. If it did pass, fine. But if it didn't, that's ok too. The argument will now be that if Boehner couldn't get "even this" to pass, even though he "tried SO hard", then Obama and the Dems need to make more concessions.


The problem is that they is now they ran out of time, and the 'cliff' will happen. Guess who's getting blame for it.
   4135. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 20, 2012 at 11:05 PM (#4329814)
the president's only motivation here is what is good for the country. but he can't back away from his tax increase for obvious reasons.

i have written multiple times that there was a contingent that was completely comfortable with voting for a tax decrease after the new year since their constituents don't associate the cliff as something congress created even though that is precisely the case

they are determined to not have a tax increase vote next to their name

that's the sum total right there
   4136. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 20, 2012 at 11:07 PM (#4329815)
zonk

the fact that so many groups flipped in a short time means exactly what i wrote. somebody waded in and dropped the hammer on the whole thing.

nobody is responding to my texts or emails. ticks me off
   4137. zonk Posted: December 20, 2012 at 11:13 PM (#4329818)

I think you guys may be misinterpreting this whole charade. As I see it, the point was never to pass Plan B per se. If it did pass, fine. But if it didn't, that's ok too. The argument will now be that if Boehner couldn't get "even this" to pass, even though he "tried SO hard", then Obama and the Dems need to make more concessions.


Nonsense... you're completely forgetting that there are 192 House Democrats (200 come January).

Now, sure - ordinarily, the minority party doesn't really matter IF you can keep your own caucus together. Clearly, they can't.

It still takes 218 votes to pass a bill in the House. No - I'm not expecting any 180 Dem + 28 Republican bills... but - what about a 130 GOP 90 Democrat bill? That still passes the 'majority of the majority' test -- 130 GOP votes would be a majority of the GOP caucus.

Go further RIGHT? No way... We just had an election and the House GOP is about to get even weaker than it is now.

Boehner needs to now move left -- not so far left he bleeds a majority of his caucus, but far enough left that he can balance 130-160 votes from his caucus with a negotiated number of votes to make up the difference from the Democratic side.

The House Republicans only matter as a monolothic part of this -- or ANY negotiation -- if they can deliver a unified majority-only bill out of the House. They clearly cannot do that.

Plan C at this point and in the future simply needs to be cobbled together 55-60% House GOP votes + 30-35% Democratic votes.

You who won tonight?

Nancy Pelosi... she's got a seat at the table again.
   4138. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 20, 2012 at 11:23 PM (#4329821)
zonk

might be this is a just a 'i will show you' effort by some for the speaker's strong arm tactics up to this point
   4139. Mefisto Posted: December 20, 2012 at 11:32 PM (#4329822)
zonk, I agree with you on the merits. I just think it will be used to justify further concessions by Obama, and I think he's made too many already.
   4140. zonk Posted: December 20, 2012 at 11:35 PM (#4329824)
might be this is a just a 'i will show you' effort by some for the speaker's strong arm tactics up to this point


Some of the sacked cons (Huelskamp for one) are certainly crowing... but there are also a fair number of Republicans that are likewise slamming others in their own caucus (Latourrette for one was slamming the 'knuckleheads').

By all accounts, the speaker tried MORE strong arming to get this passed... and it failed.

They may have "shown Boehner" -- but they've also showed Obama, Reid (and public opinion) that Boehner doesn't have the juice to really negotiate.... so at this point, what's the incentive for Reid and Obama to negotiate with Boehner? There is none.

The next Democratic move ought to be to publicly call on Boehner to talk to the House minority Dems and work out a deal that can get say... 50 Democratic votes.

Pelosi did it in 2008 during the meltdown -- in fact, she even went back and got MORE dem votes when the initial TARP vote fell short of the promised number of GOP votes.

The TP caucus needs to be taught a lesson -- and the best way to teach it is to basically show them that things could be worse.
   4141. zonk Posted: December 20, 2012 at 11:39 PM (#4329827)
Just looking around the intertubes at the national papers.... 'Boehner', 'collapse', 'failure' prominently above the fold eveywhere... WaPo has a sidebar about his future as leader.

   4142. Morty Causa Posted: December 20, 2012 at 11:47 PM (#4329831)
He needs to be left on the side of the road, with only a piece of rawhide to chew on until the wolves come down on him.
   4143. greenback calls it soccer Posted: December 20, 2012 at 11:51 PM (#4329833)
You who won tonight?

People who made a volatility play on the stock market.
   4144. zonk Posted: December 20, 2012 at 11:56 PM (#4329835)
zonk, I agree with you on the merits. I just think it will be used to justify further concessions by Obama, and I think he's made too many already.


Concessions to who, though?

You can't negotiate with a mob...
   4145. McCoy Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:00 AM (#4329838)
This was a bill that every single House Republican knew wasn't going to make it all the way through the government. Boehner simply attempted to try and shift the blame to the President. Unfortunately for Boehner he wasn't able to convince enough Republicans to put their name on a bill they never wanted and the money interests didn't want even if it was simply a gambit to shift blame.
   4146. Dale Sams Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:23 AM (#4329847)
Are there any comprehensive books on what the VP is supposed to do, and what in fact the recent ones have taken upon themselves to do? I.E.: I mentioned a ways back that I was watching "13 Days". I know it's not entirely accurate, but LBJ has like 5 lines. Whereas Cheney at times almost seemed like the co-President.

Just seems like it would be an interesting read.
   4147. Jim Kaat on a hot Gene Roof Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:43 AM (#4329857)
I think it probably is really about guns.


Well, duh. But is a regressive tax an answer? Or is it to the point that no one gives a #### what the means are to the end? BTW, a regressive tax wouldn't have stopped Newtown; that kid's family had money.
   4148. zenbitz Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:04 AM (#4329863)
DISPATCHES FROM THE WAR ON CHRISTMAS

Dateline... Dec, 20th, 2012, SAN FRANCISCO PUBLIC ELEMENTARY SCHOOL

Folks, I have here in my hot little hands, the "song list" for the 2012-2013 "Winter Sing-a-long at REDACTED Elementary School in Ultra-liberal San Francisco, California - home district of Nancy Pelosi.

Drum roll please....

K/1st performance:

Ring It In (New Years Song)
I'm a Little Latke (to the tone of I'm a little teapot)
This Little Light of Mine

2nd/3rd performance:
Dance Like Snowflakes
Things I Am Thankful For
Kwanzaa

4th/5th Performance
My Dreidel
Feliz Navidad (both english and spanish verses)
Jingle Bell Rock

Sing-A-Long Songs
Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer
Reindeer Pokey (tune of Hokey-Pokey)
Jingle Bells
Santa Clause Is Coming to Town (Sadly, not the Springsteen version)
Hanukkah
Deck the Halls (note: Pagan reference)
Silent Night
My Favorite Things
We Wish You a Merry...

The only egregious PC action was "We wish you a Merry Christmas" had altered lyrics to include ALL of "Merry Christmas", "Happy Hanukkah" and "Peaceful Holiday".


We Report, You Decide.

   4149. zenbitz Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:06 AM (#4329864)
BANE-r


You brought 'er, You Bane'r
   4150. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:11 AM (#4329867)
Watching the local PBS newscast today, and this caught my ear:
Hubbard: A year ago, I was selling maybe a shelter a month. Then earlier this year, it went to almost a shelter a week, but ever since the election, it's gone to at least a shelter a day. That was kind of like the straw that broke the camel's back.

....

Hubbard: [on the Mayan Prophecy] Nothing will probably happen or 98 percent of us will be killed. It's either/or. Ok?

Gonzales: So are you going underground?

Hubbard: I’m going underground December 19th, and I’m coming out the 23rd. It would be silly for me not to be in my shelter just in case.
I get the feeling that guys like this are on the right end of Congressional negotiations.
   4151. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:43 AM (#4329877)

You who won tonight?

People who made a volatility play on the stock market.


ding-ding-ding.

and its really ####### with my mind. While I do invest routinely throughout the year, I always end up making some moves the final week of the year (and I never ever try to 'time' anything), but this year has me feeling like one of those basement day traders.
   4152. tshipman Posted: December 21, 2012 at 02:02 AM (#4329882)
This was a bill that every single House Republican knew wasn't going to make it all the way through the government. Boehner simply attempted to try and shift the blame to the President. Unfortunately for Boehner he wasn't able to convince enough Republicans to put their name on a bill they never wanted and the money interests didn't want even if it was simply a gambit to shift blame.


You could say the same thing about the Ryan budgets, and yet the House eagerly voted for it 3 different times.

Boehner's "Plan B" which was an obvious waste of time in the actual negotiations, went nowhere. His weakness is now firmly demonstrated.
   4153. RollingWave Posted: December 21, 2012 at 04:22 AM (#4329895)
The Swiss model would actually be closer to the "founding father" USA gun system .. but I have doubts that the GOP would not explode if mandatory draft is actually introduced as a condition for guns.

   4154. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 21, 2012 at 05:32 AM (#4329901)
I'm shocked, just shocked, that Zonk believes the House GOP's only choice is to move left.

Face it - you've got a Frankenstein on your hands and he's now stomping villages. You gotta put him down - everyone else has tried, believe me - but it's clear only the Republican party itself can do anything about the 2-3-4 dozen House Republicans that are simply unworkable as Representatives.

LOL.

If only there were more RINOs ...
   4155. steagles Posted: December 21, 2012 at 06:24 AM (#4329905)
Is the Jan. 18 crime summit going to be a lost opportunity with city and county officials whining that more taxpayer money needs to be thrown at Reading's crime problems, or will new, radical measures be considered?

We should require all city residents to attend a church, synagogue, temple or Mass every week.

We should require all city residents to read the Bible one hour a day.

We should require all city residents to turn in all their weapons, rap music, alcohol, tobacco and drug paraphernalia.

We should organize a Works Progress Administration to provide jobs for all assistance, welfare and food stamps handouts.

We should require one executive from every company in Berks County with more than 25 employees to participate and provide WPA suggestions.

We should promote responsible sex with taxpayer-funded control and sterility procedures.

We should promote safe, competitive and community-supported sports for all ages.

We do not need more jail cells or policemen. We need bold leadership that starts at the family, church and entrepreneur levels, which is where this country started.

Reading the books "Pilgrim's Promise" or "The Adventures of Tom Sawyer" would do a lot of good for our city and county officials to prepare for the Jan. 18 big powwow. They might get lucky and be able to check them out at the Reading Library.

Tim Fenstermacher
Rockland Township
   4156. Lassus Posted: December 21, 2012 at 07:19 AM (#4329910)
I'm shocked, just shocked, that Zonk believes the House GOP's only choice is to move left.

Well, what's your opinion on what their other choice is?
   4157. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 21, 2012 at 09:17 AM (#4329926)
Well, what's your opinion on what their other choice is?


True to their values! Forever! Even if it means a worse result in the end (for them). HW is right when a big chunk of them see - like Joe does - compromise as EVIL - then you can't really govern unless you have a majority across government.

I love how "move left" is being a RINO, because you know Twuu Republicans never move left if it means governing. Only ideology and purity matter, not actually doing the job they were elected to do. Democrats moving right is OK, because the GOP gets its way, but this is NOT a two way street.
   4158. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 21, 2012 at 09:20 AM (#4329929)
4155. How much of the US constitution does that violate (if the "suggestions" were carried out)? At least the first and second amendments - and I gotta say cruel and unusual punishment fits there too. Sigh.
   4159. Lassus Posted: December 21, 2012 at 09:29 AM (#4329936)
How terrible a human being am I if I replaced "Tim" with "Herr" after reading 4155? And I admit I feel pretty terrible.
   4160. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 21, 2012 at 09:50 AM (#4329945)
in the background the hissing and namecalling between corporate leaders and the chamber of commerce is at a fever pitch.

my inbox is overflowing with emails this morning on how corporations are trying to scr8w small businesses in these negotiations
   4161. Misirlou has S.C.M.O.D.S Posted: December 21, 2012 at 10:08 AM (#4329957)
How terrible a human being am I if I replaced "Tim" with "Herr" after reading 4155? And I admit I feel pretty terrible.


Took me a while to figure out what that had to do with Tom Herr.
   4162. Tilden Katz Posted: December 21, 2012 at 10:17 AM (#4329962)
LOL.

If only there were more RINOs ...


Do you have a list of all current non-RINO politicians?
   4163. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 21, 2012 at 10:32 AM (#4329976)
Do you have a list of all current non-RINO politicians?


It kind of sucks for running the country right now, but as a Democrat I endorse the plan of continuing to remove RINOs from office and then redefining what a RINO is rightward and repeating the process. Keep going guys, you are doing great!
   4164. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 21, 2012 at 10:37 AM (#4329980)
And since I don't get any news by television or radio, is it pronounced Boner? And if not, why the hell not?


Former Congressman Weiner used to a pretty good rant on this subject ("BANER? Who the hell am I, Congressman WANER?"). It's about the only thing anyone misses about that guy.
   4165. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 21, 2012 at 10:46 AM (#4329989)
If only there were more RINOs ...


So, if anyone who would vote to raise the top marginal tax rate on incomes over $400k is a RINO, and anyway who would vote to change the COLA formula for social security is a DINO, and anti-RINOs and anti-DINOs are allowed to rule each party with iron fists, then both parties would be basically saying that they don't want to govern.

Why not let the august body actually debate and vote on multiple alternatives? I'd wager that something pretty sensible could get more than half of each party's members to support it, and the far-right Rs and far-left Ds could have the solace of voting their principles.
   4166. Tilden Katz Posted: December 21, 2012 at 10:46 AM (#4329990)
Supposedly both Mark Sanford and his ex-wife are considering running for Tim Scott's House seat. Now that could be one for the ages.
   4167. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 21, 2012 at 10:55 AM (#4329997)
So who is y'all favorite RINO? Eisenhower? Reagan? The Pope?
   4168. zonk Posted: December 21, 2012 at 10:57 AM (#4330000)
It's interesting reading places like Redstate --

There's ample venom for Cantor to be found - I'm not so sure the tomato tossers would accept him as the Boehner alternative, either... and rather than Cantor being seen as the Boehner alternative, it looks to me that Cantor actually (whether he wanted or not) got himself lashed to the deck of Boehner's sinking ship.

It's also amusing how easily one can just change a few words and get the same posts from Dailykos and Redstate prior to plan b's demise -- DK: The President was giving away the farm and we got NOTHING! RS: Boehner was giving away the farm and we got NOTHING!

The truth is that BOTH Boehner and Obama actually did give up some significant pieces -- Boehner a very, very limited tax increase; Obama a very, very technical concession on Social Security.

The difference, though -- Obama's side in DC stayed in line... screaming over the chained CPI was limited to the blogs - even Pelosi, who, powerless, really didn't need to say anything, essentially 'blessed' Obama's concession (even the AFL-CIO/Trumka said they wouldn't fight it).... while Boehner's folks essentially listened the blogs - and he had fewer moving pieces to keep in line!


   4169. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:00 AM (#4330005)
I am personally not a fan of chained cpi (it is regressive and calling it a technical change is glossing over some things), but it is odd to see the Democrats being the disciplined party and the GOP thrashing about.
   4170. zonk Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:01 AM (#4330007)
So, if anyone who would vote to raise the top marginal tax rate on incomes over $400k is a RINO, and anyway who would vote to change the COLA formula for social security is a DINO, and anti-RINOs and anti-DINOs are allowed to rule each party with iron fists, then both parties would be basically saying that they don't want to govern.


But that's the thing -- the liberal commentariat was dead set against the COLA/chained CPI change... but I didn't hear from a single Dem Senator or Dem congressperson who called it a dealbreaker. They grumbled - said they didn't like it - but ALL indications are that a deal that included this would find enough Democratic support.
   4171. spike Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:01 AM (#4330008)
Supposedly both Mark Sanford and his ex-wife are considering running for Tim Scott's House seat

She seems smart enough, for a carpetbagger. How that guy can show his face in public is beyond me.
   4172. Famous Original Joe C Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:03 AM (#4330010)
So who is y'all favorite RINO? Eisenhower? Reagan? The Pope?


I'll go with Nixon, myself. Started the EPA, for crying out loud!
   4173. zonk Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:03 AM (#4330011)
Cantor and Boehner speaking together... If Cantor is Brutus, his blade must be stuck in Boehner and he can't get it out to step away.
   4174. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:04 AM (#4330014)
So who is y'all favorite RINO? Eisenhower? Reagan? The Pope?


Lincoln
   4175. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:09 AM (#4330024)
zonk

somebody blew this up. folks wanted to get it done, wanted to go home, lick their wounds and gird up for the debt ceiling scrap


I blame Karl Rove...

Ok I'm joking, mostly.
Back when Dubya was Pres and the Reps had majorities in both houses, his idea was if you have 51% you can do anything- which can work only with strict party discipline- which you don't have and have never had in the Senate-
in the House, now that's something different- in the past a Speaker could always tell the wings of his party to go take a hike- he/she could always peal off enough of the minority party if push comes to shove-

but when you are determined to get 218 votes- solely out of your own party- you have just handed your wings a huge amount of power- and given the nature of wing voters they are dammned well going to exploit it.

In the past, if the righties did this to a Rep speaker, or the lefties to a Dem speaker, the response by the speaker would have been, "eFF you, I'm going to go speak with the minority leader... but that seems politically impossible now given the current anti-bipartisan consensus within the GOP and Boehner seems paralyzed."

OTOH if Boehner wants to break the Teapers (and I don't know that he does, I think he jsut wnats to control them)- its hard to imagine him having a better tactical opportunity
   4176. BDC Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:09 AM (#4330027)
Are there any comprehensive books on what the VP is supposed to do, and what in fact the recent ones have taken upon themselves to do?

There are probably some books about the Vice Presidency, but best would be to read about individual VPs (to the extent that anybody's cared to write about them). Robert Caro's Passage to Power is fascinating on how LBJ tried to handle being VP. At first he assumed it would be like Majority Leader only better: that he really would preside over the Senate. The Senate disabused him of that, so he sulked for most of the next few years. I don't remember how he's portrayed in 13 Days, but Caro portrays LBJ as a radical hawk in Cabinet meetings, and attributes the more detente-like outcome of the Crisis to RFK.

On the other burning issue, I would be as happy as anyone to call the Speaker /bon?r/, but the name Böhner, pronounced with the German rounding, really does sound closest to /ben?r/ :( It's a family thing; I know some people with oe = ö names who go with the /o/, but /e/ is also common.
   4177. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:10 AM (#4330028)
though i find the acronym disparaging i believe george bush the elder is the best qualified to be termed 'rino'

he pushed through the last republican led tax increase

signed the ada which business to this day finds infuriating

there are other items. but those are two significant ones
   4178. zonk Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:11 AM (#4330029)
Surreal press conference.
   4179. BrianBrianson Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:12 AM (#4330030)
I too would've said Nixon, but Lincoln is correct.
   4180. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:13 AM (#4330032)
OTOH if Boehner wants to break the Teapers (and I don't know that he does, I think he jsut wnats to control them)- its hard to imagine him having a better tactical opportunity


The odds are much better the TP breaks Boehner than he breaks them. Rush and the other unelected levers of GOP power seem to align much more closely with the TP, except some of the corporate interests, but as HW said they are busy infighting and have been oddly nuetered the last cycle or so.

As to how to pronounce his name, I think people should have their name pronounced the way they want as a matter of courtesy.
   4181. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:18 AM (#4330038)
corporate leaders have no regard for the tea party given that it has morphed into a collection of folks vehemently opposed to just about everything that provides the u.s. a competitive advantage

immigration
financial services
infrastructure

that and any corporate head is predisposed to negotiate. they do it every day. to enter into a position with the brand of refusing to compromise is anathema to corporate leaders.
   4182. zonk Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:21 AM (#4330047)
The odds are much better the TP breaks Boehner than he breaks them. Rush and the other unelected levers of GOP power seem to align much more closely with the TP, except some of the corporate interests, but as HW said they are busy infighting and have been oddly nuetered the last cycle or so.


To what end, though?

They're loud - but they're not even a majority of their own caucus (if they were, I presume they'd already have the Speakership). I think Boehner was/is more "right" than "center-right" (he's just not "Tea Party Right") - but then, Pelosi was also more "left" than "center-left"... the difference, of course - Pelosi was always able to keep her left flank in line when they had to be kept in line.
   4183. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:21 AM (#4330048)
I agree HW, but back in the day the corporate leaders money seemed to talk a whole lot louder than it has the last few years. I think the US needs a counter-weight to corporate power, but not the TP, that's for sure.
   4184. Famous Original Joe C Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:23 AM (#4330050)
I too would've said Nixon, but Lincoln is correct.


Agreed. Nixon is on the list, the Lincoln resides at the top.

Primer RTs:

@FreeRepublicTXT: We call Alaska home, no Blks within 250 miles of my house, life is good.
@FreeRepublicTXT: We must recognize the fact that Obama will replace Hitler in the history books. Obama Care (sic) is the new Zylon B. Whitey will be the new Jew.
@FreeRepublicTXT: Should women be legislators in the first place? I love women (there are 8 in my house) but I ask the question in all seriousness.
@FreeRepublicTXT: The truth is that all elected dims are owned by satan and do his bidding. Anyone that votes for a dim is voting for satan and his agenda.
@FreeRepublicTXT: The white heterosexual Christian (especially the southerner) is becoming endangered. It's not much of a stretch to see a genocide of whites.
   4185. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:24 AM (#4330052)
i am getting feelers that this is tied to guns. that the nra wants to throw these negotiations into next year as a distraction from any focus on gun legislation

that fits. the way grover and the chamber of commerce backtracked from saying ok to plan b, that took some major weight. the nra is that weight

and it's the right political ploy. why play defense if you can have someone interfere on your behalf?

   4186. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:25 AM (#4330053)
To what end, though?



I agree to what end, but honestly I have no idea. I really really don't understand the TP mindset, it is a foreign culture to me. Every once in a while I see through the veil and get a glimpse, but mostly I am in the dark to to the why and where are they going over there (the what they are doing is pretty clear most of the time).
   4187. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:29 AM (#4330057)
and it's the right political ploy


For the NRA? Yes
For the GOP legislators that want to avoid issues with the crazy? Yes
For the idea of GOP ideals being enacted(or preserved)? Nope, there is a better deal to be had now for that than there will be after the New Year.
For the Democrats? Yes
For the economy/US? Doubtful, but I am not convinced the "cliff" is so terrible, so it might be a wash.
   4188. BDC Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:32 AM (#4330066)
Lincoln is correct

Although that's like trying to figure out whether Marx was a Marxist. I just finished reading a book about Lincoln's role in the organization of the Republican Party in Illinois in 1856 (Julie Fenster's Case of Abraham Lincoln, which doubles as a true-crime book), and till late in the year the party were calling themselves "anti-Nebraskans" as much as anything else. They were trying to avoid the label "Black Republican" that Stephen Douglas had tagged them with. (Another common label for the GOP in 1856 was "the anti-Douglas party.") Anyway, couldn't one argue that Lincoln steered a pretty central course for Republicans for the next nine years, tacking back and forth between radicalism and conservatism? I know this is one of the most-discussed issues in American historiography, but it generally seems to place him in the middle of his party. He may be a RINO by 2012 standards, but in that case Andrew Jackson was a DINO.
   4189. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:32 AM (#4330068)
Agreed. Nixon is on the list, the Lincoln resides at the top.


I have always been bitter my favorite President (well Washington is up there as well) is a Republican, so I am biased towards making him a RINO. Just saw the movie last weekend too, highly recommended.

Lincoln Movie Review: Great acting and dialogue. The largest flaw is Lincoln is more of a benevolent demi-god than an actual person (but I love Lincoln so much this is closer to feature than flaw as far as I am concerned). So many great scenes, especially all the Lincoln stories and the reactions from everyone around him. And the movie even fits in the Politics thread because it is all about political wrangling.

EDIT: On taxes alone doesn't Lincoln get the RINO label? (Yes by 2012 standards)
   4190. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:36 AM (#4330073)
bitter

i was speaking only in terms of the nra's politics

they need a distraction so that the vice-president's recommendation, when announced, immediately is relegated to the back pages

   4191. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:37 AM (#4330075)
i was speaking only in terms of the nra's politics


Sure and I agree, but the GOP is going along with it and it impacts everyone so I figured i would broaden it out.
   4192. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:43 AM (#4330079)
Santa knows I've been good this year, so for Christmas he's bringing me this GOP meltdown.
   4193. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:48 AM (#4330085)
@FreeRepublicTXT: The white heterosexual Christian (especially the southerner) is becoming endangered. It's not much of a stretch to see a genocide of whites.


That sort of paranoia is fascinating to me (in a scary way).
   4194. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:49 AM (#4330088)
the name Böhner, pronounced with the German rounding, really does sound closest to /ben?r/


I always thought it would sound more like "Berner" but maybe I just had a bad German teacher?
   4195. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:49 AM (#4330089)
also, it's entirely plausible that my previous interpretation holds, that the speaker went this path to show his team that it wouldn't work, that the response would be highly negative and that he is now free to work with the president and the dems to get a deal.

he had to burn down every last option to get the deal needed.

that the past two days was some song and dance is exasperating but that's politics

yes, i want to think the speaker has a plan.
   4196. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:49 AM (#4330090)
4154. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 21, 2012 at 05:32 AM (#4329901)
I'm shocked, just shocked, that Zonk believes the House GOP's only choice is to move left. ... If only there were more RINOs ...

4181. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:18 AM (#4330038)
corporate leaders have no regard for the tea party given that it has morphed into a collection of folks vehemently opposed to just about everything that provides the u.s. a competitive advantage
The two factions fighting for the soul of the Republican Party, on display in our very own thread.
   4197. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:51 AM (#4330092)
On taxes alone doesn't Lincoln get the RINO label? (Yes by 2012 standards)


Before Lincoln was Lincoln, he was a Whig who supported major government investment in infrastructure.
   4198. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:52 AM (#4330098)
I really really don't understand the TP mindset, it is a foreign culture to me.


The first thing you have to understand is this- there are secular libertarian Teapers- but they do not represent the movement as whole, rather the driving force behind Teaperism is pretty much the same as the driving force behind the 19th Century No-Nothings-

when you get past the xeno-phobia/ethnocentrism the key thing to look at is that they view everything- economics included- on a "moral" axis

taxes are bad, because no one else has the right to your hard earned money
regulation is bad because it interferes with your god given right to make money and provide for your family
welfare/unemployment, collective bargaining rights are bad because they deflect personal responsibility
ANYTHING that deflects personal responsibility is bad:
tort law is bad, - so you were injured by a product, well you should have seen that it was dangerous
can pay your student loan back? too bad, you should have thought about your employment prospects before taking out those loans
having an insurer pay for birth control, Jesus Christ- you want other people to subsidize your immoral behavior!!!!
welfare is horrific it rewards/encourages people to be lazy shiftless bums living off other people.

and on and on, they are right on a micro level with respect to some of these issues - individual people really should look at their ability to repay loans whether it be student loans or mortgages, etc., but the Teapers seem utterly incapable of realizing that one person defaulting on a loan is bad for that person, but MILLIONS defaulting is not only bad for everyone, but evidence of a systemic issue that goes way beyond individual accountability/culpability
   4199. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:54 AM (#4330101)
yes, i want to think the speaker has a plan.


So do I actually.
   4200. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:55 AM (#4330103)
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