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#4094 strongly implied my comment wasn't a good-faith question.
The question was about the persistence and continued impact of biases, among people supposedly dedicated to bias-free output, even after such biases have been identified.
What are the odds that the Senators didn't actually see the movie and are reacting from 2nd hand sources?
I'd guess both things are true.
See, only a self-hating Jew could say something like that and not immediately be labelled an anti-semite- actually I should re-phrase that- he's not a self-hating jew, he merely hates other, secular jews...
oddly enough when he casually refers to three nations as being synonymous with the religion preferred by their majorities, he managed to pick 3 where that label is in fact controversial within those countries- India is a Hindu Country- well actually- whether or not India is a "Hindu Country" or a secular multi-ethnic country is in fact a matter of much concern within India- ditto Turkey as a Muslim country- Attaturk would be rolling in his grave at this guy's casual assertion.
In fact there is a distinction between whether a country is a "christian country" or merely a country with a christian majority
Yes, you've mentioned them, but I don't recall you explaining how or why they exist if they're not the result of personal and/or institutional political biases.
The Hill's latest whip count now has 23 Republicans defecting on the 'Plan B' vote...
Boehner just got a rules vote passed - but this is largely just a technical vote that makes it possible to vote on what are technically two separate bills (the tax bill and the spending sequestration -- which essentially removes ALL of the Defense cuts and shifts them over to other parts of the budget -- it's the goodie he had to give the TPers to even give Plan B a shot).... It would have been the mother of all debacles if he hadn't even got the rules vote - but he still lost 13 Republicans on that.
With 23 Republicans now on the record as "No" Plan B votes - Boehner can only afford to lose one more Republican before he'd need Democratic votes.
Technically, the rules vote passed 217-197 -- but it's not clear about the non-voters (not unusual for rules votes not to have full/435 total votes) are not voting tonight... so technically, he MIGHT have more breathing room depending on who's in town and who votes.
It's gonna be close... if he loses this vote - I'd be tempted to say the Boehner speakership is over, but then -- I strongly get the sense that no one on the GOP really wants the job (Cantor does, but I don't think he does under the current circumstances).
The GOP fence-sitters include Flake (who goes to the Senate next year), Bachmann, Price, Kingery, Todd Akin, Tim Scott (also Senate bound in January and supposedly tight with DeMint), and Chaffetz.... among those who are either dangerous wildcards or might have axes to grind.
The possible Dems look to be Dan Boren (retiring, won't be back in January) from OK, Ben Chandler (lost, won't be back in January... but he looks like lobbyist bound and word is he might want to run for something again), and Dennis Kucinich (crazy, also gone in January).
So --Boehner might have 3 more votes on the GOP side he can shed, depending on whether he can get all three undecided Dems. Word is that Boren would vote yes, no clue on Chandler and Kucinich.
So - assuming full House, he now needs at least one Dem vote (and it's all but confirmed that Boren will vote yes). 24 remaining GOP undecideds.
I don't think he's got the votes...
The Plan B "Christmas tree Goodies" -- essentially, the spending side (which also guts ACA, Dodd-Frank, and essentially restores ALL of the Defense sequestration cuts, but moves them all to other parts of the budget) only passed 215-209. And that's the bill that NO REPUBLICAN would really argue with because it says nothing about taxes. It simply deals with the spending cuts side - and does so by eliminating all the DoD cuts, but keeping the baseline 10% in place by reallocating the cuts elsewhere. It got larded up with a ton of unrelated goodies - ACA/Dodd-Frank repeals, etc.
Vote on the revenue/tax side of Plan B coming up in 5 minutes.
Furious arm-twisting happening on the GOP side - everything from committee chairs being threatened to committee assignments being promised.
Boehner doesn't have the votes.
I'm hazy on House rules - I'm not sure if he can yank the vote after the Rules vote slating it earlier today or not - but it's pretty clear that they've recessed to try to whip more votes.
EDIT: He can just yank the vote... Boehner's office now says vote "probably" in 90 minutes.
Boehner just pulled his own bill.
No vote on Plan B.
Wow. House will recess until after Christmas.
Stunning. How does Boehner survive?
The GOP couldn't even get a naked "Not our fault" fig leaf passed.
At this juncture, I really don't think he does.
You go, GOP!
A bit of schadenfreude, but this is bad news. We're almost surely going over the cliff, now I'm worried about the debt ceiling. How long is there between speaker elections and hitting the limit?
Who in the world would even want the job? I suppose you get a pay hike, you get to go on TV, but you're doomed to be a failure.
the speaker told everyone to go home for christmas.
speaker election is 1/3
As a serious question and you will get a serious answer. Ask a flip question and you'll get a flip answer.
What you infer from my flip answer is your bias, not mine.
These are good ideas, but with 300 million guns already currently in circulation, the effects would be muted for a long time.
Bad news from the front, Bubbeleh. Hearing nothing but Christmas carols on the radio since before Thanksgiving, I have concluded that we have been overrun.
If there ever was a war on Christmas, Christmas won.
Given these developments, I truly do not see ANY way the House can do anything without that coming to pass - and at minimum, there's a debt ceiling vote happening next year that pretty much HAS to pass, even if you're of a mind that unbreakable gridlock is a good thing on all else.
Seriously, whomever the next House speaker is - it's time to accept that it's no longer possible to run this congress in the standard method it's been run.
We do not have a parliamentary-type legislature -- if we did, this would be the end of Boehner -- but I just cannot see a workable House that doesn't essentially become a 'parliamentary system' in all but name. I mean, the Senate is dysfunctional - but this just rises to a whole new level once you do the appropriate park adjustments by chamber.
So is Boehner Thelma, or Louise?
And since I don't get any news by television or radio, is it pronounced Boner? And if not, why the hell not?
somebody blew this up. folks wanted to get it done, wanted to go home, lick their wounds and gird up for the debt ceiling scrap
.........
factcheck.org jumping in
http://factcheck.org/2012/12/gun-rhetoric-vs-gun-facts/
"The mass shooting in Newtown, Conn., has reignited a national debate on gun control. As elected leaders begin the dialogue, some facts are clear — there has been a massive increase in gun sales. Some things are not so clear — such as whether there is causation between more guns and more violent crimes. And some are contrary to the general impression — for example, the rate of gun murders is down, not up......
Rep. Louie Gohmert said that “every time … conceal-carry [gun laws] have been allowed the crime rate has gone down.” But that is far from a settled issue in academia."
I like it best when they don't make anybody completely happy...
UNACCEPTABLE!
Where are Beavis and Butthead when we really need them (assuming they haven't already been elected to Congress)?
If we all start spelling it Boner, and pronouncing it Boner, the rest of the World will come along.
Who's with me?
There was a war. Jesus lost. Capitalism won.
I just can't see it HW, I just can't see it...
Cantor was in the media today promising Plan B would pass... He's not hurt as much as Boehner by this, but he's at least on record for it. Paul Ryan spoke in favor of it on the House floor and was supposedly even helping to whip votes. Grover Norquist gave it his OK.
It's time to face facts... if the inmates aren't running the asylum, then they surely have far, far too much power in their hands.
This didn't get scuttled - it got a slow unraveling.... There were about a dozen solid GOP no votes and 25-30 fence sitters ever since Boehner planned to put this on the record. Ordinarily in such circumstances, when leadership puts the vote up - they get enough of those leaners... In this case - the ONLY movement from those leaners was away from caucus leadership. The "no" votes didn't bounce around -- they slowly grew... from 12 to 15 to 20 to 25 and by most accounts, up to 30-35 by the end. After Grover Norquist essentially gave the GOP an out by saying this wouldn't break the pledge -- he then, a few hours later issued a statement saying that his earlier statements shouldn't be viewed as an 'endorsement'... Freedomworks issued a statement supporting Plan B... then did a 180 flip-flop about 3 hours later.
Face it - you've got a Frankenstein on your hands and he's now stomping villages. You gotta put him down - everyone else has tried, believe me - but it's clear only the Republican party itself can do anything about the 2-3-4 dozen House Republicans that are simply unworkable as Representatives.
The problem is that they is now they ran out of time, and the 'cliff' will happen. Guess who's getting blame for it.
i have written multiple times that there was a contingent that was completely comfortable with voting for a tax decrease after the new year since their constituents don't associate the cliff as something congress created even though that is precisely the case
they are determined to not have a tax increase vote next to their name
that's the sum total right there
the fact that so many groups flipped in a short time means exactly what i wrote. somebody waded in and dropped the hammer on the whole thing.
nobody is responding to my texts or emails. ticks me off
Nonsense... you're completely forgetting that there are 192 House Democrats (200 come January).
Now, sure - ordinarily, the minority party doesn't really matter IF you can keep your own caucus together. Clearly, they can't.
It still takes 218 votes to pass a bill in the House. No - I'm not expecting any 180 Dem + 28 Republican bills... but - what about a 130 GOP 90 Democrat bill? That still passes the 'majority of the majority' test -- 130 GOP votes would be a majority of the GOP caucus.
Go further RIGHT? No way... We just had an election and the House GOP is about to get even weaker than it is now.
Boehner needs to now move left -- not so far left he bleeds a majority of his caucus, but far enough left that he can balance 130-160 votes from his caucus with a negotiated number of votes to make up the difference from the Democratic side.
The House Republicans only matter as a monolothic part of this -- or ANY negotiation -- if they can deliver a unified majority-only bill out of the House. They clearly cannot do that.
Plan C at this point and in the future simply needs to be cobbled together 55-60% House GOP votes + 30-35% Democratic votes.
You who won tonight?
Nancy Pelosi... she's got a seat at the table again.
might be this is a just a 'i will show you' effort by some for the speaker's strong arm tactics up to this point
Some of the sacked cons (Huelskamp for one) are certainly crowing... but there are also a fair number of Republicans that are likewise slamming others in their own caucus (Latourrette for one was slamming the 'knuckleheads').
By all accounts, the speaker tried MORE strong arming to get this passed... and it failed.
They may have "shown Boehner" -- but they've also showed Obama, Reid (and public opinion) that Boehner doesn't have the juice to really negotiate.... so at this point, what's the incentive for Reid and Obama to negotiate with Boehner? There is none.
The next Democratic move ought to be to publicly call on Boehner to talk to the House minority Dems and work out a deal that can get say... 50 Democratic votes.
Pelosi did it in 2008 during the meltdown -- in fact, she even went back and got MORE dem votes when the initial TARP vote fell short of the promised number of GOP votes.
The TP caucus needs to be taught a lesson -- and the best way to teach it is to basically show them that things could be worse.
People who made a volatility play on the stock market.
Concessions to who, though?
You can't negotiate with a mob...
Just seems like it would be an interesting read.
Well, duh. But is a regressive tax an answer? Or is it to the point that no one gives a #### what the means are to the end? BTW, a regressive tax wouldn't have stopped Newtown; that kid's family had money.
Dateline... Dec, 20th, 2012, SAN FRANCISCO PUBLIC ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Folks, I have here in my hot little hands, the "song list" for the 2012-2013 "Winter Sing-a-long at REDACTED Elementary School in Ultra-liberal San Francisco, California - home district of Nancy Pelosi.
Drum roll please....
K/1st performance:
Ring It In (New Years Song)
I'm a Little Latke (to the tone of I'm a little teapot)
This Little Light of Mine
2nd/3rd performance:
Dance Like Snowflakes
Things I Am Thankful For
Kwanzaa
4th/5th Performance
My Dreidel
Feliz Navidad (both english and spanish verses)
Jingle Bell Rock
Sing-A-Long Songs
Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer
Reindeer Pokey (tune of Hokey-Pokey)
Jingle Bells
Santa Clause Is Coming to Town (Sadly, not the Springsteen version)
Hanukkah
Deck the Halls (note: Pagan reference)
Silent Night
My Favorite Things
We Wish You a Merry...
The only egregious PC action was "We wish you a Merry Christmas" had altered lyrics to include ALL of "Merry Christmas", "Happy Hanukkah" and "Peaceful Holiday".
We Report, You Decide.
You brought 'er, You Bane'r
ding-ding-ding.
and its really ####### with my mind. While I do invest routinely throughout the year, I always end up making some moves the final week of the year (and I never ever try to 'time' anything), but this year has me feeling like one of those basement day traders.
You could say the same thing about the Ryan budgets, and yet the House eagerly voted for it 3 different times.
Boehner's "Plan B" which was an obvious waste of time in the actual negotiations, went nowhere. His weakness is now firmly demonstrated.
LOL.
If only there were more RINOs ...
Well, what's your opinion on what their other choice is?
True to their values! Forever! Even if it means a worse result in the end (for them). HW is right when a big chunk of them see - like Joe does - compromise as EVIL - then you can't really govern unless you have a majority across government.
I love how "move left" is being a RINO, because you know Twuu Republicans never move left if it means governing. Only ideology and purity matter, not actually doing the job they were elected to do. Democrats moving right is OK, because the GOP gets its way, but this is NOT a two way street.
my inbox is overflowing with emails this morning on how corporations are trying to scr8w small businesses in these negotiations
Took me a while to figure out what that had to do with Tom Herr.
Do you have a list of all current non-RINO politicians?
It kind of sucks for running the country right now, but as a Democrat I endorse the plan of continuing to remove RINOs from office and then redefining what a RINO is rightward and repeating the process. Keep going guys, you are doing great!
Former Congressman Weiner used to a pretty good rant on this subject ("BANER? Who the hell am I, Congressman WANER?"). It's about the only thing anyone misses about that guy.
So, if anyone who would vote to raise the top marginal tax rate on incomes over $400k is a RINO, and anyway who would vote to change the COLA formula for social security is a DINO, and anti-RINOs and anti-DINOs are allowed to rule each party with iron fists, then both parties would be basically saying that they don't want to govern.
Why not let the august body actually debate and vote on multiple alternatives? I'd wager that something pretty sensible could get more than half of each party's members to support it, and the far-right Rs and far-left Ds could have the solace of voting their principles.
There's ample venom for Cantor to be found - I'm not so sure the tomato tossers would accept him as the Boehner alternative, either... and rather than Cantor being seen as the Boehner alternative, it looks to me that Cantor actually (whether he wanted or not) got himself lashed to the deck of Boehner's sinking ship.
It's also amusing how easily one can just change a few words and get the same posts from Dailykos and Redstate prior to plan b's demise -- DK: The President was giving away the farm and we got NOTHING! RS: Boehner was giving away the farm and we got NOTHING!
The truth is that BOTH Boehner and Obama actually did give up some significant pieces -- Boehner a very, very limited tax increase; Obama a very, very technical concession on Social Security.
The difference, though -- Obama's side in DC stayed in line... screaming over the chained CPI was limited to the blogs - even Pelosi, who, powerless, really didn't need to say anything, essentially 'blessed' Obama's concession (even the AFL-CIO/Trumka said they wouldn't fight it).... while Boehner's folks essentially listened the blogs - and he had fewer moving pieces to keep in line!
But that's the thing -- the liberal commentariat was dead set against the COLA/chained CPI change... but I didn't hear from a single Dem Senator or Dem congressperson who called it a dealbreaker. They grumbled - said they didn't like it - but ALL indications are that a deal that included this would find enough Democratic support.
She seems smart enough, for a carpetbagger. How that guy can show his face in public is beyond me.
I'll go with Nixon, myself. Started the EPA, for crying out loud!
Lincoln
I blame Karl Rove...
Ok I'm joking, mostly.
Back when Dubya was Pres and the Reps had majorities in both houses, his idea was if you have 51% you can do anything- which can work only with strict party discipline- which you don't have and have never had in the Senate-
in the House, now that's something different- in the past a Speaker could always tell the wings of his party to go take a hike- he/she could always peal off enough of the minority party if push comes to shove-
but when you are determined to get 218 votes- solely out of your own party- you have just handed your wings a huge amount of power- and given the nature of wing voters they are dammned well going to exploit it.
In the past, if the righties did this to a Rep speaker, or the lefties to a Dem speaker, the response by the speaker would have been, "eFF you, I'm going to go speak with the minority leader... but that seems politically impossible now given the current anti-bipartisan consensus within the GOP and Boehner seems paralyzed."
OTOH if Boehner wants to break the Teapers (and I don't know that he does, I think he jsut wnats to control them)- its hard to imagine him having a better tactical opportunity
There are probably some books about the Vice Presidency, but best would be to read about individual VPs (to the extent that anybody's cared to write about them). Robert Caro's Passage to Power is fascinating on how LBJ tried to handle being VP. At first he assumed it would be like Majority Leader only better: that he really would preside over the Senate. The Senate disabused him of that, so he sulked for most of the next few years. I don't remember how he's portrayed in 13 Days, but Caro portrays LBJ as a radical hawk in Cabinet meetings, and attributes the more detente-like outcome of the Crisis to RFK.
On the other burning issue, I would be as happy as anyone to call the Speaker /bon?r/, but the name Böhner, pronounced with the German rounding, really does sound closest to /ben?r/ :( It's a family thing; I know some people with oe = ö names who go with the /o/, but /e/ is also common.
he pushed through the last republican led tax increase
signed the ada which business to this day finds infuriating
there are other items. but those are two significant ones
The odds are much better the TP breaks Boehner than he breaks them. Rush and the other unelected levers of GOP power seem to align much more closely with the TP, except some of the corporate interests, but as HW said they are busy infighting and have been oddly nuetered the last cycle or so.
As to how to pronounce his name, I think people should have their name pronounced the way they want as a matter of courtesy.
immigration
financial services
infrastructure
that and any corporate head is predisposed to negotiate. they do it every day. to enter into a position with the brand of refusing to compromise is anathema to corporate leaders.
To what end, though?
They're loud - but they're not even a majority of their own caucus (if they were, I presume they'd already have the Speakership). I think Boehner was/is more "right" than "center-right" (he's just not "Tea Party Right") - but then, Pelosi was also more "left" than "center-left"... the difference, of course - Pelosi was always able to keep her left flank in line when they had to be kept in line.
Agreed. Nixon is on the list, the Lincoln resides at the top.
Primer RTs:
that fits. the way grover and the chamber of commerce backtracked from saying ok to plan b, that took some major weight. the nra is that weight
and it's the right political ploy. why play defense if you can have someone interfere on your behalf?
I agree to what end, but honestly I have no idea. I really really don't understand the TP mindset, it is a foreign culture to me. Every once in a while I see through the veil and get a glimpse, but mostly I am in the dark to to the why and where are they going over there (the what they are doing is pretty clear most of the time).
For the NRA? Yes
For the GOP legislators that want to avoid issues with the crazy? Yes
For the idea of GOP ideals being enacted(or preserved)? Nope, there is a better deal to be had now for that than there will be after the New Year.
For the Democrats? Yes
For the economy/US? Doubtful, but I am not convinced the "cliff" is so terrible, so it might be a wash.
Although that's like trying to figure out whether Marx was a Marxist. I just finished reading a book about Lincoln's role in the organization of the Republican Party in Illinois in 1856 (Julie Fenster's Case of Abraham Lincoln, which doubles as a true-crime book), and till late in the year the party were calling themselves "anti-Nebraskans" as much as anything else. They were trying to avoid the label "Black Republican" that Stephen Douglas had tagged them with. (Another common label for the GOP in 1856 was "the anti-Douglas party.") Anyway, couldn't one argue that Lincoln steered a pretty central course for Republicans for the next nine years, tacking back and forth between radicalism and conservatism? I know this is one of the most-discussed issues in American historiography, but it generally seems to place him in the middle of his party. He may be a RINO by 2012 standards, but in that case Andrew Jackson was a DINO.
I have always been bitter my favorite President (well Washington is up there as well) is a Republican, so I am biased towards making him a RINO. Just saw the movie last weekend too, highly recommended.
Lincoln Movie Review: Great acting and dialogue. The largest flaw is Lincoln is more of a benevolent demi-god than an actual person (but I love Lincoln so much this is closer to feature than flaw as far as I am concerned). So many great scenes, especially all the Lincoln stories and the reactions from everyone around him. And the movie even fits in the Politics thread because it is all about political wrangling.
EDIT: On taxes alone doesn't Lincoln get the RINO label? (Yes by 2012 standards)
i was speaking only in terms of the nra's politics
they need a distraction so that the vice-president's recommendation, when announced, immediately is relegated to the back pages
Sure and I agree, but the GOP is going along with it and it impacts everyone so I figured i would broaden it out.
That sort of paranoia is fascinating to me (in a scary way).
I always thought it would sound more like "Berner" but maybe I just had a bad German teacher?
he had to burn down every last option to get the deal needed.
that the past two days was some song and dance is exasperating but that's politics
yes, i want to think the speaker has a plan.
Before Lincoln was Lincoln, he was a Whig who supported major government investment in infrastructure.
The first thing you have to understand is this- there are secular libertarian Teapers- but they do not represent the movement as whole, rather the driving force behind Teaperism is pretty much the same as the driving force behind the 19th Century No-Nothings-
when you get past the xeno-phobia/ethnocentrism the key thing to look at is that they view everything- economics included- on a "moral" axis
taxes are bad, because no one else has the right to your hard earned money
regulation is bad because it interferes with your god given right to make money and provide for your family
welfare/unemployment, collective bargaining rights are bad because they deflect personal responsibility
ANYTHING that deflects personal responsibility is bad:
tort law is bad, - so you were injured by a product, well you should have seen that it was dangerous
can pay your student loan back? too bad, you should have thought about your employment prospects before taking out those loans
having an insurer pay for birth control, Jesus Christ- you want other people to subsidize your immoral behavior!!!!
welfare is horrific it rewards/encourages people to be lazy shiftless bums living off other people.
and on and on, they are right on a micro level with respect to some of these issues - individual people really should look at their ability to repay loans whether it be student loans or mortgages, etc., but the Teapers seem utterly incapable of realizing that one person defaulting on a loan is bad for that person, but MILLIONS defaulting is not only bad for everyone, but evidence of a systemic issue that goes way beyond individual accountability/culpability
So do I actually.
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