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Sunday, December 02, 2012

OTP December 2012 - Pushing G.O.P. to Negotiate, Obama Ends Giving In

Mr. Obama, scarred by failed negotiations in his first term and emboldened by a clear if close election to a second, has emerged as a different kind of negotiator in the past week or two, sticking to the liberal line and frustrating Republicans on the other side of the bargaining table.

Bitter Mouse Posted: December 02, 2012 at 11:15 PM | 6172 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   4201. tshipman Posted: December 21, 2012 at 11:56 AM (#4330105)
So this is more or less terrible for Boehner.

He will have less than a week to actually write legislation. There will be at most two or three days. Boehner has zero leverage, because it is quite clear that he can only deliver 50-100 votes for any compromise. Obama and the D's are going to have to deliver the rest. If he proposes anything significantly to the left of "Plan B" he likely loses his speakership. Plan B was already pretty far right, with money being stripped from children's programs and food stamps gratuitously thrown in. Functionally, his bargaining power has decreased from 218 votes in the House to around 50 votes in the House. Obama should probably not offer anything more than the current deal. If he does, he should get some variant of the payroll tax exemption thrown in.

Assume we go over the cliff:
The media has been building up "the cliff" as a thing for a little while now, pretty much since the election. The media story will be pretty clear on why we went over. Boehner either loses his speakership or faces a protracted balloting process.

What passes in January? Do R's in the house actually refuse to vote for a middle class tax cut package? I assume that's the first order of business in the senate.

In that package:
1. tax cut for all those below 250K
2. Permanent expansion of child tax credit and EITC.
3. unemployment extenders + other forms of mild stimulus with payfors.

Does Obama have to offer more than that? Should he? R's have nothing that O wants, really, plus all those policies are very broadly popular. The only other additional item is the Debt Ceiling. If O really is willing to stick to his guns, he can destroy the Republican party's image for a generation.

   4202. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:06 PM (#4330116)
La Pierre trotting out the gun-free zone trope. So why do lunatics shoot up shopping malls and theaters, Wayne?
   4203. Howie Menckel Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:12 PM (#4330121)
"If O really is willing to stick to his guns, he can destroy the Republican party's image for a generation."

lol, perhaps the biggest hyperbole I've read since Karl Rove's plan for a "permanent majority" via K Street. That only lasted what, 2 or 3 generations? possibly less, I forget.


   4204. DA Baracus Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:13 PM (#4330123)
La Pierre also wants a national database of the mentally ill. But national registry of gun ownership, he opposes that.
   4205. tshipman Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:15 PM (#4330124)
lol, perhaps the biggest hyperbole I've read since Karl Rove's plan for a "permanent majority" via K Street. That only lasted what, 2 or 3 generations? possibly less, I forget.


A political generation is 8 years. I suppose I should have clarified.
   4206. Tripon Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:18 PM (#4330127)
If this NRA thing going on just like twitter saying it is. I don't know how seriously people can take the NRA anymore. They just jumped head first into the Tyson zone.
   4207. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:22 PM (#4330133)
If this NRA thing going on just like twitter saying it is. I don't know how seriously people can take the NRA anymore. They just jumped head first into the Tyson zone.
I was just about to type that the Twitterverse is not being kind to LaPierre.
   4208. Tripon Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:23 PM (#4330135)
   4209. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:24 PM (#4330137)
Wayne LaPierre: Guns didn't kill kids last Friday, a shitty Oliver Stone movie from the '90s did!
   4210. Tripon Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:25 PM (#4330141)
Wayne LaPierre just blamed the parents for their children's death. Just wow.

Edit: To clarify, he blamed parents want for sports, stuff, than safety.
   4211. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:27 PM (#4330142)
The last few days have been remarkable for the collapse of right-wing idolatry of guns and low taxes.
   4212. zonk Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:29 PM (#4330146)
Ve MUST have ZEE ARMED GUARDS!

EVERYWHERE!

...jeebus... is this a man or a Dystopian Novel writ large?
   4213. Dale Sams Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:29 PM (#4330149)
Frigging Oliver Stone:

The Untold History of the United States---> "Thirteen Days" (via a scene)---->Me successfully resisting the urge to rewatch "JFK"----->me unsuccessfully resisting the urge to look into Bugliosi's book, or read Jack Ruby's wiki article*----me being assdeep in 'conspiricy mode'

*But I did discover that in 1986 Bugliosi participated in a 21 hour long, broadcasted mock trial of Oswald, with actual witnesses. Fascinating.

edit: heh...and i worte this without reading 4209.
   4214. Tripon Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:30 PM (#4330150)
robneyer ?@robneyer
Boy, you guys really don't like Wayne LaPierre. I dunno, guy's making a lot of sense to me.

robneyer ?@robneyer
I WAS KIDDING JEEZ GUYS HAVEN'T YOU BEEN PAYING ATTENTION
   4215. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:30 PM (#4330151)
@robneyer
I WAS KIDDING JEEZ GUYS HAVEN'T YOU BEEN PAYING ATTENTION
   4216. Dale Sams Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:31 PM (#4330154)
John, "U-Turn" may have made me want to kill myself, but it didn't kill any kids...Cause I KNOW you ain't talkin bout NBK.
   4217. Tripon Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:32 PM (#4330158)
The NRA won't be taking questions today. This is hilarious.
   4218. DA Baracus Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:34 PM (#4330161)
The NRA won't be taking questions today. This is hilarious.


Which is a smart move for the NRA because it would only get worse if La Pierre had to answer questions.
   4219. Howie Menckel Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:34 PM (#4330163)
"A political generation is 8 years. I suppose I should have clarified."

fair enough, but betting the "under" on any particular political move changing the landscape for even 8 years is easy money. the public generally doesn't act/react in ways that partisans of all stripes want them to....
   4220. Tripon Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:35 PM (#4330165)
Jamison Foser ?@jamisonfoser
NRA: Put a gov’t employee with a gun in every public space. Also: Citizens must arm selves to defend against gov’t tyranny.
   4221. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:35 PM (#4330166)
The guards will be UNPAID VOLUNTEERS???
   4222. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:35 PM (#4330167)
Wayne has told you people all you need to know, you piss him off with your insulting leftist questions and he will stand his ground, then you hippies will really have something to cry about.
   4223. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:36 PM (#4330168)
The guards will be UNPAID VOLUNTEERS???


They will be the Zimmermilitia, the greatest patriots of them all.
   4224. Tripon Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:37 PM (#4330169)
Why not just do a press release if you're not bothering to answer questions. At least then you wouldn't have to show your face.
   4225. zonk Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:37 PM (#4330170)
Soooo... at least, Wayne didn't mention any birther stuff. So there's that.
   4226. zonk Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:39 PM (#4330173)
Why not just do a press release if you're not bothering to answer questions. At least then you wouldn't have to show your face.


PLus, you can have someone you know.. take out the crazy!

But hey - sure - let's put everyone with 'mental illness' in a national database!

Good lord... I'm not so sure I think Wayne should have a gun... or at minimum - I think he belongs in the national crazy people database he proposes.
   4227. DA Baracus Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:39 PM (#4330174)
Why not just do a press release if you're not bothering to answer questions. At least then you wouldn't have to show your face.


That would require them to be thoughtful about how they handle their PR.
   4228. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:43 PM (#4330177)
You know who was an unpaid, armed security volunteer?

George Zimmerman.
   4229. zonk Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:43 PM (#4330179)
So does Wayne cancel MTP this weekend?

Based on a scripted statement reading, I really cannot see any way it would be a good thing to have this guy answering questions...
   4230. Lassus Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:45 PM (#4330182)
He should have had Boehner come out and give the statement.
   4231. DA Baracus Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:47 PM (#4330184)
You know who was an unpaid, armed security volunteer?

George Zimmerman.


So you're saying we can create more heroes?
   4232. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:47 PM (#4330185)
Apparently "Mayan apocalypse" literally translates into 'the collapse of all the crazy elements of American social conservatives overnight.'
   4233. DA Baracus Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:49 PM (#4330189)
Apparently "Mayan apocalypse" literally translates into 'the collapse of all the crazy elements of American social conservatives overnight.'


That's ridiculous. They had a week to write that speech!
   4234. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:50 PM (#4330190)
So you're saying we can create more heroes?
For just one day.
   4235. Lassus Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:52 PM (#4330191)
FYI, I was in some outdoor stores up north here buying binoculars, and the gun sales areas were hopping in every store, three different ones. Not in a paranoid way, but maybe a "oh, here it comes, we should buy now" way? Just very busy. Nothing should make America feel safer than disinterested retail teenagers taking down background information for firearms.
   4236. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:53 PM (#4330192)
Circle jerkers, please admit that anything La Pierre could possibly say today, short of adopting the left wing agenda on gun control, would have been roundly mocked by you.

   4237. Lassus Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:54 PM (#4330194)
Circle jerkers, please admit that anything La Pierre could possibly say today, short of adopting the left wing agenda on gun control, would have been roundly mocked by you.

This was already asked and answered previously. That you ignore it does not mean it didn't happen.
   4238. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 21, 2012 at 12:55 PM (#4330195)
Ray, please step up and defend LaPierre's comments.
   4239. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:00 PM (#4330199)
Schadenfreude i/????d?nfr??d?/ (German: [??a?d?n?f???d?]) is pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others.


This is what I am experiencing. I feel like a bad person. Still it bubbles up within me. Tomorrow I will be responsible and want to have a well run country, today on the Winter Solstice I want to celebrate the Earth turning back again towards the sun*.

* Yes I know this is not a good description of what is happening.
   4240. zonk Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:01 PM (#4330200)
Circle jerkers, please admit that anything La Pierre could possibly say today, short of adopting the left wing agenda on gun control, would have been roundly mocked by you.


He may not have been cheered, but perhaps clipping the so-readily-mockable things from his speech might have forestalled the mocking. I mean, there might have been some legitimately fine ideas in what he said... but it's awfully hard to get past the endless stream of nonsense.
   4241. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:01 PM (#4330201)
Ray, please step up and defend LaPierre's comments.


Seconded, with Christmas Tidings.
   4242. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:02 PM (#4330203)
Ray, please step up and defend LaPierre's comments.


Since I believe that nothing can stop this kind of crazy that hasn't revealed itself yet, then La Pierre's rantings are just as insane as the left's rantings.

He talked about violent video games being a cause. Utterly silly, but no sillier than claiming that the current state of "loose" gun laws were a cause.

He talked about violent movies being a cause. Utterly silly, but no sillier than claiming that the current state of "loose" gun laws were a cause.

He talked about posting an armed guard in schools. Utterly silly, but no sillier than claiming that the current state of "loose" gun laws were a cause.

Etc etc etc. Why liberals think that they have some sort of intellectual high ground on the NRA is laughable. The liberal viewpoint on this is just as silly and cartoonish and childish as the NRA's is on the opposite end of the spectrum.
   4243. Tripon Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:05 PM (#4330208)
Ray, that's a defense.

So basically, your argument is that Wayne calling for a whole bunch of non-tangentially related businesses is silly, but the one business that actually is related to guns, "The Gun business" is silly because its extra super silly?

THAT'S YOUR DEFENSE?
   4244. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:06 PM (#4330210)
Ray, I'll listen to your blather when you produce Sandy Hook autopsy reports listing the cause of death as VIDEO GAMES, VIOLENT.
   4245. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:07 PM (#4330211)
#4243, I can't parse that.
   4246. zonk Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:07 PM (#4330212)
Etc etc etc. Why liberals think that they have some sort of high ground on the NRA is laughable. The liberal viewpoint on this is just as silly and cartoonish as the NRA's is on the opposite end of the spectrum.


What is the "liberal position"?

While yes - there are most certainly 'liberals' who would be happy to ban guns outright - I don't know of ANY liberal of any influence or power who says anything of the sort....

The predominant liberal position on guns seems to be: 1)universal background checks for all manner of gun purchases, 2)banning of certain types of weapons (i.e., "assault weapons"), 3)banning of extended capacity magazines.

I personally support 1) & 3) very strongly - 2) seems hazier if only because 'assault weapons' seems a meaningless term.... but what's so crazy about 1) and 3)?
   4247. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:07 PM (#4330213)
You always come back to "there's nothing to be done that will be perfectly effective, so we should do nothing at all." I get that this is your base position on the matter at hand, but don't be shocked if your rank nihilism isn't compelling to a particularly large audience, Ray.
   4248. Tripon Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:09 PM (#4330214)
Ray, I can't parse your defense. That is my issue. Apparently, everything is SO SILLY. SO WHY MAKE JUDGMENTS?
   4249. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:10 PM (#4330215)
Why do people respond to Ray?
   4250. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:10 PM (#4330216)
#4244, we're not looking for a cause of death. We know that. We're looking for a cause for why Lanza shot up the school. And the cause is that Lanza was crazy. And stricter gun control laws can't stop crazy, less violent video games/movies can't, etc.
   4251. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:11 PM (#4330218)
To zonk's point, 1) and 3) should be no-brainers. No sportsman needs a clip or magazine that holds more than 10 rounds. Ever. The need to define "assault weapons" rationally, rather than just go back to the Clinton era "it looks aggressive" bit, is obvious and most everyone I know would support that.
   4252. DA Baracus Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:12 PM (#4330219)
   4253. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:13 PM (#4330221)
We're looking for a cause for why Lanza shot up the school. And the cause is that Lanza was crazy.
Then he shouldn't have had access to such powerful weapons, right?
   4254. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:14 PM (#4330222)
What is the "liberal position"?


Stricter gun control, at the very least. And they will get it, because a crisis has provided an opportunity for them.
   4255. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:14 PM (#4330224)
by the way, the number of hunters in the u.s. continues to decrease every year. as a member of ducks unlimited this is a big concern as membership is declining as folks are dying and new members are not being found

so you have gun sales increasing but not to folks who as a group are versed in gun safety and understand very clearly the danger presented by a gun.

   4256. zonk Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:15 PM (#4330225)
Rank nihilism almost seems to have become an ideology unto itself.

It's become almost a disease...

   4257. Dale Sams Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:15 PM (#4330227)
Why do people respond to Ray?


Because without him, it becomes a *true* circle jerk.

Ray, LaPierre represents a useful position. Insane Huffpost commenters do not. So his saying silly things carrys more weight than random silly liberals.

As I've said before, I support the idea of an organization that says "Not one inch". It's hard to get behind that when he comes out just batshit insane.
   4258. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:16 PM (#4330228)
Why do people respond to Ray?


Yeah, why interrupt the high fiving to consider a challenging viewpoint?
   4259. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:17 PM (#4330230)
so you have gun sales increasing but not to folks who as a group are versed in gun safety and understand very clearly the danger presented by a gun.


The sales increases are due to conspiratorial types hoarding weapons, in exactly the manner Adam Lanza's mother hoarded weapons.
   4260. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:17 PM (#4330231)
#4244, we're not looking for a cause of death. We know that. We're looking for a cause for why Lanza shot up the school. And the cause is that Lanza was crazy.


And nothing can be done about "crazy", it is almost as if mental illness were a disease and we all know there is nothing to be done regarding disease but give up and suffer.
   4261. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:19 PM (#4330234)
Because without him, it becomes a *true* circle jerk.


There has to be somthing between the real liberal position on guns and Ray. I am seriously there are country miles there, there has to be something.
   4262. Tripon Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:19 PM (#4330238)
Yeah, why interrupt the high fiving to consider a challenging viewpoint?


Because you're not offering a challenging viewpoint?
   4263. Jim Kaat on a hot Gene Roof Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:19 PM (#4330239)
by the way, the number of hunters in the u.s. continues to decrease every year. as a member of ducks unlimited this is a big concern as membership is declining as folks are dying and new members are not being found


Which is bad for wildlife. Not sure of the state of duck and geese populations (though living in the flyway, they look fine to my untrained eye) but in many areas the deer are too thickly spread, especially in the hills where their food supply is already at a paucity.
   4264. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:19 PM (#4330240)
Stricter gun control, at the very least.


And why would that be a bad thing? Barring your belief that it's all pointless (and a trip down to the beach to kill an Arab?), what is the problem with stricter gun control, exactly?
   4265. tshipman Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:19 PM (#4330241)
Why liberals think that they have some sort of intellectual high ground on the NRA is laughable. The liberal viewpoint on this is just as silly and cartoonish and childish as the NRA's is on the opposite end of the spectrum.


Well, there's the fact that peer reviewed studies have shown that even the full-of-loopholes FAWB meaningfully decreased murders, while violent video games have been shown to not adversely affect empathy.


So, you know, besides all the people who have actually looked at the matter in a serious way.
   4266. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:21 PM (#4330246)
Because without him, it becomes a *true* circle jerk.

I don't agree. HW certainly offers a thoughful, non-liberal position. And only people like ray think that all of those on the "left" march in lockstep.
   4267. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:23 PM (#4330250)
And nothing can be done about "crazy", it is almost as if mental illness were a disease and we all know there is nothing to be done regarding disease but give up and suffer.


I never said that nothing could be done about mental illness; but the approaches through drugs and therapy are part science and part art, and you simply will not cure or fix anything approaching 100% of the people, so, yes, there will always be crazy that will detonate like a ticking time bomb.

In Lanza's case, his profile - aloof, strange, anti-social - fits large swathes of kids. And he hadn't done anything criminal before this, and, really, gave no indication that he was capable of this. So it presented a particularly difficult problem. One kid out of every X of them who fit Lanza's profile will detonate no matter what you do. Stricter gun laws can't stop that.
   4268. Dale Sams Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:26 PM (#4330254)
Because without him, it becomes a *true* circle jerk.

I don't agree.


I'm saying that we need people like Ray. To me at least, he doesn't come off as batshit insane.
   4269. zonk Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:26 PM (#4330255)
so you have gun sales increasing but not to folks who as a group are versed in gun safety and understand very clearly the danger presented by a gun.


I agree on this -

In fact, I have no real problem with gun safety even being offered in schools... I took a gun safety course in jr high -- in fact, I'm fairly sure it was taught by the NRA. Growing up in a rural area, lots of these lessons were also reinforced by the gun owners and enthusiasts in my life - but there was a sort of philosophical underpinning to that in-school safety course that seems absent nowadays.

To wit - it was about the responsibility of handling a firearm... the main thrust wasn't the idea "this thing can protect you from the crazies/government/hordes of whatever" -- the thrust was that this is a very powerful tool, holding it vests you with enormous responsibility above all else, and then plenty of the practical (how to check a chamber, never point it at anything you would shoot at, etc).

This is how advocates like the current LaPierre folks do no good -- Wayne might very well be well-versed in all of those theories of responsibility... he probably is -- but that's NOT what he sells...

He's selling mania, fear, and the like - why should we be surprised when the manic, the fearful, and the paranoid seem to be listening most to him?
   4270. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:27 PM (#4330260)
Because you're not offering a challenging viewpoint?

Right. It's just John Cleese in the argument sketch.
   4271. Greg K Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:27 PM (#4330261)
Right. It's just John Cleese in the argument sketch.

No it isn't.
   4272. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:28 PM (#4330263)
I never said that nothing could be done about mental illness; but the approaches through drugs and therapy are part science and part art, and you simply will not cure or fix anything approaching 100% of the people, so, yes, there will always be crazy that will detonate like a ticking time bomb.


So something could be done (not 100%, but something)? Great let's increase funding for researching and treating mental illness that could lead to violence. As a liberal I will gladly work for that.

Sound like a deal?
   4273. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:29 PM (#4330264)
I'm saying that we need people like Ray. To me at least, he doesn't come off as batshit insane.

I'd prefer batshit insane to reflexive contrarianism and nihlism. e.g., Joe K. is more interesting IMO.
   4274. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:29 PM (#4330265)
And why would that be a bad thing? Barring your belief that it's all pointless (and a trip down to the beach to kill an Arab?), what is the problem with stricter gun control, exactly?


Because the right to bear arms is a... right, and rights shouldn't be infringed upon lightly, and everyone knows that liberals don't plan to stop at "stricter gun control" but they will always be agitating for stricter and stricter gun control as long as anyone is allwed to bear any arm. So let's stop pretending that's not the case. Just like taxes will never be high enough for liberals, or Obamacare ultimately isn't universal enough for them, or wealth redistribution is never redistributive enough for them, so too will stricter gun control never be strict enough.

Do you really not know yourselves, or is your self-unawareness simply the obvious act it plays as?
   4275. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:31 PM (#4330266)
Just like taxes will never be high enough for liberals, or Obamacare ultimately isn't universal enough for them, or wealth redistribution is never redistributive enough for them, so too will stricter gun control never be strict enough.


I would let people walk on that pier, but I know they will just keep walking until they fall off the end, so why take even a step onto the pier. One or two step is never enough, don't you people know that?
   4276. zonk Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:34 PM (#4330270)
Because right to bear arms is a... right, and rights shouldn't be infringed upon lightly, and everyone knows that liberals don't plan to stop at "stricter gun control" but they will always be agitating for stricter and stricter gun control as long as anyone is allwed to bear any arm. So let's stop pretending that's not the case. Just like taxes will never be high enough for liberals, or Obamacare ultimately isn't universal enough for them, or wealth redistribution is never redistributive enough for them, so too will stricter gun control never be strict enough.


One can't cook up a big steaming dish of nihilism with a healthy seasoning of paranoia!

The slippery slope only slides one direction, right?
   4277. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:34 PM (#4330271)
Why do people respond to Ray?


It beats actually working?
   4278. tshipman Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:34 PM (#4330272)
Right. It's just John Cleese in the argument sketch.


This is what's frustrating to me. Ray keeps repeating that there's nothing that could be done, but he refuses to examine the counterfactual. In societies where something has been done, including strict gun control, we don't see these kinds of mass shootings. Yet he loudly and obnoxiously repeats that there's nothing that could be done.

And then he accuses "liberals" of not engaging.
   4279. Tripon Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:35 PM (#4330274)
Harvey said in an earlier post that the Republicans didn't vote on their plan B because of the NRA. At this point, I'm ready to believe the opposite, that the Republicans got headwind on how bad the NPR press conference would be and decided to shelve what they're working on so they have better cover for what they want while 'gun legislation' can be consider.
   4280. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:36 PM (#4330278)
I'd prefer batshit insane to reflexive contrarianism and nihlism.


My preference is for a mix. A logical premise built on defined assumptions can be nice. Pure politics and maneuvering is fun. Reflexive partisan sniping can be entertaining (especially when my side is the one sniping I admit). Contrarianism serves a purpose when thoughtful. Nihilism is boring - not because it is not philisophically significant (it is), but because it is poorly suited for the actuality of of politics. Insane has its place.
   4281. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:37 PM (#4330279)
tripon

that is the flip side of the saem working theory and entirely plausible

but that lends itself to party creativity and i confess to not being comfortable assigning that level of credit

i do buy that folks got the word on what a 'certain significant befefactor' wanted and folks nodded and did what was asked
   4282. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:39 PM (#4330281)
This is what's frustrating to me. Ray keeps repeating that there's nothing that could be done, but he refuses to examine the counterfactual. In societies where something has been done, including strict gun control, we don't see these kinds of mass shootings.


You pretended that Australia, a country with just 22 million people and vastly different demographics/culture/climate/geography, could be compared evenly to the US.
   4283. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:40 PM (#4330283)
and everyone knows that liberals don't plan to stop at "stricter gun control"


There's the crux of the matter for you, Ray. You're paranoid and belief that "liberals" are out to get you.
   4284. tshipman Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:41 PM (#4330284)
You pretended that Australia, a country with just 22 million people and vastly different demographics/culture/climate/geography, could be compared evenly to the US.


And here's the great catch 22: any country that enacts strict gun control is completely different by virtue of culture. So even though strict gun control has worked to reduce murders in literally every country in which it has been enacted, it could never work in the United States.

Studies that demonstrate an effect of the FAWB in reducing murder INSIDE the United States are ignored. What more evidence do you want? Like really? What more evidence would be convincing to you?
   4285. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:42 PM (#4330287)
And then he accuses "liberals" of not engaging.


A part of the modern GOP and its ilk spends much of its time projecting its own worst tendencies and weaknessess on others. Rove is a master of the meme. And to be fair liberals and moderates are not immune to it either.

Any time I hear someone screaming about flaw 'x' in a person/cause/group I ask myself if the screamer has that exact issue, and most of the time the answer is yup.
   4286. BDC Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:43 PM (#4330289)
Ray keeps repeating that there's nothing that could be done, but he refuses to examine the counterfactual. In societies where something has been done, including strict gun control, we don't see these kinds of mass shootings

Well, again, as at Utøya, sometimes we do. But that's not the main issue. Consider this analogy: San Francisco had a devastating earthquake in 1906 and a pretty bad one in 1989; both led to some preparedness reforms. Another big earthquake will hit some day, and minor ones hit all the time, but 83 years is beyond most human memory, and really, if a super-big one hits, the current codes will be useless anyway, the coast is toast and all of that. So the argument is, why bother regulating anything, these things are rare and we're defenseless against them.

But the argument sometimes verges on: there are big earthquakes from time to time, so why have any building codes anywhere? Why prepare against the minor earthquakes that hit SF, or the floods and winds and droughts that hit other places?
   4287. zonk Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:44 PM (#4330290)
You pretended that Australia, a country with just 22 million people and vastly different demographics/culture/climate/geography, could be compared evenly to the US.


It ain't friggin' Mars fer chrissakes...

I mean, no one's talking about verbatim copying any legislation, forcing people to drink Fosters, and remember Paul Hogan again.
   4288. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:44 PM (#4330291)
You pretended that Australia, a country with just 22 million people and vastly different demographics/culture/climate/geography, could be compared evenly to the US.


And you have decided prima facie that nothing can be done, and dismiss evidence that something can be done as out of bounds for whatever reason you can think of, because you are more interested in defending your prima facie assumptions than having a rational conversation on the subject.
   4289. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4330295)
There's the crux of the matter for you, Ray. You're paranoid and belief that "liberals" are out to get you.


Why, it's almost as if liberals didn't force me into Obamacare.

They push for higher taxes, more government, more spending, more redistribution. Those things affect me directly. The push for stricter gun laws doesn't affect me directly as I don't own any guns and don't ever plan to, but indirectly it is an infringement on freedom, and all because liberals don't understand what is happening in situations like the Lanza murders.

Remember your "social contract"? That affects me.

What is your argument, exactly? That liberals aren't out to push their agenda? Their agenda affects me. It has to, right? You guys weren't moral enough to get together on your own and pay for health care for everyone; you demanded I put my own skin in the game also.
   4290. Tripon Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4330296)
This is a real NRA tweet.

NRA ?@NRA
If we truly cherish our kids more than our money ... we must give them the greatest level of protection possible #NRA
   4291. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:48 PM (#4330297)
Why, it's almost as if liberals didn't force me into Obamacare.


It's almost as if you are incapable of convincing a majority of the citizenry of the republic to support your policies, and then get frustrated and lash out when you lose elections.
   4292. tshipman Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:48 PM (#4330299)
Well, again, as at Utøya, sometimes we do.


I should have properly stated that we don't see these kinds of mass shootings at anywhere near the scale.
   4293. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:49 PM (#4330301)
You pretended that Australia, a country with just 22 million people and vastly different demographics/culture/climate/geography, could be compared evenly to the US.


I asked Joe this a while back and I don't think he ever answered. What country is a better match for the US?

Seriously, colonial heritage from GB. English speaking western democracy. Frontier/western heritage/mythology (the Western and its themes are pretty much exactly represented in Australia and their thoughts about the Outback during that roughly same time period). Culture of violence and gun loving. Swept through the country dealing with the aborigines in a brutal fashion. Basically a country of immigrants. And they are large enough to represent a very fair 'proof of concept' - seriously they are what, 1/14th, how many statitical studies need more than that to determine something statituically.

Arguing Australia is too different to be meaningful is arguing no other nation in the world, no other experience in the world, other than here in the US is meningful, because we are a special flower unlike any other in the world and our people are not like people elsewhere.
   4294. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:50 PM (#4330303)
Remember your "social contract"? That affects me.


It does! It gives you benefits like "not having to defend yourself from bigger, stronger men, every time you walk down the street." Your precious "rule of law" and the "social contract" you throw into scare quotes are THE SAME THING, Ray.
   4295. zonk Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:51 PM (#4330304)
Why, it's almost as if liberals didn't force me into Obamacare.


I'd be curious to hear precisely what changes Obamacare wrought on your life... I presume you had health insurance prior to 2010, correct?
   4296. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:52 PM (#4330305)
Arguing Australia is too different to be meaningful is arguing no other nation in the world, no other experience in the world, other than here in the US is meningful, because we are a special flower unlike any other in the world and our people are not like people elsewhere.


And I would expect this sort of rank "America is super special like a snowflake in hell" argument from Joe. But I'd like to think Ray wouldn't fall for it.
   4297. zonk Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:54 PM (#4330308)
And I would expect this sort of rank "America is super special like a snowflake in hell" argument from Joe. But I'd like to think Ray wouldn't fall for it.


Windows8 changed everything.
   4298. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:54 PM (#4330310)
But I'd like to think Ray wouldn't fall for it.


Sure, but in what way is Australia not a good match for the US then? What other country is better?
   4299. greenback calls it soccer Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:55 PM (#4330312)
I presume you had health insurance prior to 2010, correct?

He should have it. The ABA offers a group plan to its members.
   4300. Tripon Posted: December 21, 2012 at 01:56 PM (#4330314)

Sure, but in what way is Australia not a good match for the US then? What other country is better?


Canada in all honesty.
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