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Monday, June 02, 2014

OTP - June 2014: Iraq war costs U.S. more than $2 trillion: study

NEW YORK (Reuters) - The U.S. war in Iraq has cost $1.7 trillion with an additional $490 billion in benefits owed to war veterans, expenses that could grow to more than $6 trillion over the next four decades counting interest, a study released on Thursday said.

The war has killed at least 134,000 Iraqi civilians and may have contributed to the deaths of as many as four times that number, according to the Costs of War Project by the Watson Institute for International Studies at Brown University.

When security forces, insurgents, journalists and humanitarian workers were included, the war’s death toll rose to an estimated 176,000 to 189,000, the study said.

Bitter Mouse Posted: June 02, 2014 at 07:48 AM | 4613 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: otp, politics, stupid ideas

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   2201. Mefisto Posted: June 12, 2014 at 03:29 PM (#4724238)
During most of that age, Arab Islam was a thin veneer on top of a largely Christian, non-Arabic population, including sizable Greek, Anatolian and Jewish populations.


That's true for "much" of the time, but I'd hesitate to say "most". But this was true for Christians in Europe too.
   2202. Greg K Posted: June 12, 2014 at 03:29 PM (#4724240)
Actually, Greg, the finale will run for 66 minutes so the producers were not too constricted.

Ah that's good to hear. To be honest I was a bit worried about that.
   2203. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 03:30 PM (#4724241)
Many of the famous "Arab Muslim" thinkers, were non-Arabs, non-Muslims, or both.


No, most were Muslims (some Jews, but not a huge number). Many had non-Arab heritage, although intermarriage happened with increasing frequency as time went on. But the fact that some had non-Arab ancestry seems to me to be irrelevant.
   2204. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 12, 2014 at 03:31 PM (#4724243)
Yet Arab Islam was the most liberal realm on earth and the repository of human knowledge for the entirety of the Dark Ages

Meaning it was, at best, a shining light in an age of utter illiberalism. Once Europe actually liberalized, it left Arab Islam far behind -- where it remains today.

Arab Islam has yet to engage, much less master, the fundamental liberal idea of religion as a matter of private conscience. It has today and has always had, a badly-distorted view of religion's place in the political cosmos. They are resoundingly illiberal societies, wherein religion is the totality.

And this trend is only getting worse.

   2205. Ray (RDP) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 03:32 PM (#4724246)
From the figures I've seen, for a year or so her and Bill's debts exceeded their assets by several million. I don't think it's unfair to describe that as 'dead broke'. Granted they had ways of getting money (and credit) far beyond the ordinary person.


But that's sort of the point. Whatever liquid cash they did or did not have, or debts they had, they had assets, they had a pension, they had serious earning potential, they had people willing to advance them huge loans to buy houses, they presumably had stocks, etc. She painted herself as akin to a Wal-Mart worker who had just been laid off. That is simply disingenuous.

So their debts at the time were greater than the amount of money they had in the bank (*). Big effing whoop. A "dead broke" analysis is simply not so narrow as to simply look at a balance sheet of those two columns.

(*) Presuming even that was true.

Still, in the 'untruthfulness' range, that was no more deceitful than Gore's "I took the initiative in the legislation that led to the internet" (i.e., more or less true, if perhaps slanted to show the speaker in the best light). It's nowhere near "there is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe".


"Did she lie? Hey, look over here!!!"
   2206. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 03:32 PM (#4724247)
That's true for "much" of the time, but I'd hesitate to say "most". But this was true for Christians in Europe too.

Right, but the indigenous populations, including the Germanic invaders, Romanized as well as Christianized, with time. They trended in the direction of modernism. The Islamic/Arab influence was to make the existing culture less modern.
   2207. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 03:36 PM (#4724250)

Right, but the indigenous populations, including the Germanic invaders, Romanized as well as Christianized, with time. They trended in the direction of modernism. The Islamic/Arab influence was to make the existing culture less modern.


I am not sure what 'modernism' means in this context.
   2208. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 03:39 PM (#4724252)

But that's sort of the point. Whatever liquid cash they did or did not have, or debts they had, they had assets, they had a pension, they had serious earning potential, they had people willing to advance them huge loans to buy houses, they presumably had stocks, etc. She painted herself as akin to a Wal-Mart worker who had just been laid off. That is simply disingenuous.


So you agree she didn't lie, she was at worst disingenuous. I agree she was disingenuous. All politicians are disingenuous. It comes with the territory. It's not a particularly egregious example.
   2209. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 03:39 PM (#4724254)
Translation: Someone you love dearly is going to die horribly.


Depends on who you love, I guess.
   2210. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 03:39 PM (#4724255)
No, most were Muslims (some Jews, but not a huge number). Many had non-Arab heritage, although intermarriage happened with increasing frequency as time went on. But the fact that some had non-Arab ancestry seems to me to be irrelevant.

The entire commercial class was either Greek or Armenia Christian or Jewish up through WW1.

The non-Arab ancestry isn't irrelevant because the intellectual tradition in the early Islam world came from non-Arabic, non-Muslim roots.

Islamic intellectualism has focused almost solely on religion, the Koran, the Hadiths and memorization, and literal interpretation thereof. Interpretation, or what we would call Theology or Philosophy is highly discouraged. It is a mind-set that is contradictory to exploration and discovery.

It is very similar to what you see in Biblical-literalist, fundamentalist Protestantism.
   2211. Ray (RDP) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 03:41 PM (#4724259)
So you agree she didn't lie, she was at worst disingenuous.


I don't see any real difference. Do you? Here are the m-w and dictionary.com definitions of "disingenuous":

not truly honest or sincere : giving the false appearance of being honest or sincere


lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; falsely or hypocritically ingenuous; insincere: Her excuse was rather disingenuous.
   2212. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 12, 2014 at 03:43 PM (#4724260)
From the figures I've seen, for a year or so her and Bill's debts exceeded their assets by several million. I don't think it's unfair to describe that as 'dead broke'. Granted they had ways of getting money (and credit) far beyond the ordinary person.

On the day he left the White House, Bill Clinton started collecting his Presidential Pension, which pays a Cabinet Member's salary, currently 201K, a little less back then. Hillary's Senate salary was $145K in 2001, rising to $174K by the time she left. She also had an $8M book advance (she got $13M for the current book). Before they even started giving speeches for big money, the Clintons were in the 1% crowd.
   2213. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 03:44 PM (#4724261)
I am not sure what 'modernism' means in this context.

Progress. Intellectual, scientific, technological, and cultural development.

Christendom advanced very rapidly coming out of the "Dark Ages". That advance can be seen it the ability of the Western states to project power far abroad in the Crusades. By 1100, Western Europe was categorically more powerful than the Arab-Islamic world, even if they lacked the same refinement in cultural matters.

Even in religious matters, pre-Reformation Catholicism was not particularly severe. Most of the religious severity in Europe came out of the Catholic/Lutheran/Calvinist/Anglican conflicts.
   2214. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 12, 2014 at 03:48 PM (#4724267)
Progress. Intellectual, scientific, technological, and cultural development.

It's even more basic than that: The proper role of religion in society. Getting that right is the first precept of modernity.

We have it right (though it took awhile), they have it not right.

The idea that something that fundamental could have gone awry because the borders of Iraq were drawn 100 miles east of where they should have been is laughable on its face.

In the West, religion came to begat and develop a tradition and spirit of oppositionalism, which led in turn to the widespread spirit of applying the intellect to worldly matters -- which is also badly underdeveloped in the lands of Arab Islam.
   2215. robinred Posted: June 12, 2014 at 03:50 PM (#4724269)
I don't see any real difference. Do you?


I think the difference for many people is that lying is deliberately falsifying a specific fact/situation that can be demonstrably proven wrong. Being disingenuous is more akin to spin, omission, exaggeration, deception etc. If HRC had said, "My book advance was 4M before taxes" when it was in fact 8M, and can be shown to be 8M, that's what most people call lying.
   2216. JE (Jason) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 03:53 PM (#4724271)
Matt Bai on Cantor:
I can tell you this: Cantor didn't lose because his opponent, who was backed by radio hosts and tea party activists, articulated some brilliant distillation of conservative thought. Brat struck me, when we spoke, as affable and well intended but nowhere near fluent in the complexities of policy or government. "Really, who I am is a free-market guy" is how Brat described himself. Meaning, he went on, that "regardless of race, skin color, all those kinds of things, everyone should be treated equally."

Brat said the first things he would do when he got to Washington were to "vote for term limits" and "bring the 10th Amendment into play." (That's the one that sharply limits the role of the federal government, an amendment that hasn't really been "in play" since Franklin Roosevelt.) At one point, he asked me, "Hey, is it true that taxes went up under the Ryan-Murray budget deal?" Which seemed like something maybe he should know.

It's telling that the first thing you encounter on the "What We Believe" page of Brat's website, before you even scroll down to the Pablum about conservative ideals, is a huge picture of Ronald Reagan, circa 1986. As far as Brat's concerned, that about covers it.

But, hey, at least Dave Brat talks like an actual person and engages in something resembling an actual conversation. There's not a lot of that going on in the hallways of the U.S. Capitol. What happens to members of Congress, after they've been there a while, is that they spend so much of their time giving stilted talks to one delegation or another in their office lobbies, or speaking in nonsensical generalities to the reporters who stalk them in designated public spaces, that they begin to confuse obfuscation with meaning. They start to think they're being cagey and persuasive when, really, they're just being confounding.

This isn't a new story in Washington (I remember former Senator Bob Kerrey saying once that his kids had banned him from ever again using the words "with all due respect"), but it's especially problematic at a moment when so much of political activism has moved online, where the prevailing culture tends to be informal, personal and direct. As angry as these new partisan activists may get at elected officials who seem too pragmatic or timid, what really galvanizes them is when, after they air those grievances, the politicians respond with what sound like North Korean communiqués. That's when they really start to think: Maybe this guy needs to go.

In person and offstage, Cantor can be thoughtful and candid, very much unlike the villainous geek Democrats portray him to be. But you just have to follow Cantor's Twitter feed — a droning mix of voting announcements, attacks on the White House and meaningless non sequiturs — to understand how trite and stilted his projection of himself had started to sound after years in leadership.

"We need to empower every single child to have the best education and the best future" is a typical Cantor tweet. Or how about: "Let's focus on what we should be focusing on which is a better economy and #AnAmericaThatWorks." You get the idea.

If Cantor was having an intern do his tweeting, that's a problem right there. If he was actually writing that drivel himself, it's just horrifying.
   2217. bunyon Posted: June 12, 2014 at 03:58 PM (#4724274)
How many guys have gone to Washington believing in the tenth amendment only to turn into a money grubbing fed 12 hours after inauguration?
   2218. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:03 PM (#4724277)
Translation: Someone you love dearly is going to die horribly.


Someone will die. That I can assure you. A name brand character, even.
   2219. Ray (RDP) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:06 PM (#4724281)
I think the difference for many people is that lying is deliberately falsifying a specific fact/situation that can be demonstrably proven wrong. Being disingenuous is more akin to spin, omission, exaggeration, deception etc. If HRC had said, "My book advance was 4M before taxes" when it was in fact 8M, and can be shown to be 8M, that's what most people call lying.


I think we call people who engage in "spin, omission, exaggeration, deception etc." liars.

I can't believe people are seriously disputing this point.
   2220. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:09 PM (#4724284)
During most of that age, Arab Islam was a thin veneer on top of a largely Christian, non-Arabic population, including sizable Greek, Anatolian and Jewish populations. Many of the famous "Arab Muslim" thinkers, were non-Arabs, non-Muslims, or both.


This statement is a positive argument for the liberal nature (for the time) of the state.

You have to remember, the Eastern Roman Empire was the vastly more wealthy, urban and Christianized, part of the Empire. The relatively small number of Arab conquerors had very little cultural impact at first. Just like Italy maintained a more or less Roman culture despite the barbarian incursions.


Again, bias for your preferred religion. Nothing more. Baghdad was the center of civilization for a couple of centuries. It was a Muslim state that embraced learning and education, saved the classics of antiquity from the barbarian hordes of Europe, advanced physics and math so far that it would take until the 1700s for Europe to catch up, and did so by being open and welcoming to every culture and creed to peaceful trade and endeavor. This lasted until the Mongols came. (The Mongols never really built much more than a stirrup.) In the interim, Europe was a backwards wasteland of stupidity and ignorance.

It took centuries and centuries for Islam to dominate the culture.


No, Islam always dominated the culture, in the same way that Christianity dominated Rome. It wasn't until the Mongols that a less open, more violent strain of Islam took over. But to claim that Baghdad was not an Islamic culture is just ####### ludicrous.

Also, many of the rulers had little interest in conversion because the non-Muslims paid more taxes.


Dude, you're so far in the tank for Christianity here you can't see anything but your own colon.
   2221. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:11 PM (#4724287)
Once Europe actually liberalized, it left Arab Islam far behind


All of which was driven by the fact that the Mongols stopped in Germany.
   2222. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:12 PM (#4724291)
From the figures I've seen, for a year or so her and Bill's debts exceeded their assets by several million. I don't think it's unfair to describe that as 'dead broke'. Granted they had ways of getting money (and credit) far beyond the ordinary person. Still, in the 'untruthfulness' range, that was no more deceitful than Gore's "I took the initiative in the legislation that led to the internet" (i.e., more or less true, if perhaps slanted to show the speaker in the best light). It's nowhere near "there is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe".

It appears there's no lie told by a Clinton that the liberal fanboys here won't defend.

How many "dead broke" people get a mortgage for a $1.7 million mansion in Chappaqua, let alone are able to pay said mortgage? How many "dead broke" people have seven-figure book advances coming in, and monthly checks from six-figure pensions and salaries?
   2223. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:13 PM (#4724294)
The non-Arab ancestry isn't irrelevant because the intellectual tradition in the early Islam world came from non-Arabic, non-Muslim roots.


And the intellectual tradition of the Christian world came from non-Christian, non-European roots. Everybody was cribbing notes from the pagan Greeks.
   2224. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:13 PM (#4724296)
Someone will die. That I can assure you. A name brand character, even.
I've read the books, so I've got some expectations. It's not IF someone dies, but how they die that's going to matter to me. Plus, revelations for many, many people need to happen. I'm with Greg K, I worry about the time limitations. I trust the show runners to do a good job — they haven't let us down yet — but that's a lot of bang to be squished into 66 minutes.
   2225. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:16 PM (#4724302)

How many "dead broke" people get a mortgage for a $1.7 million mansion in Chappaqua, let alone are able to pay said mortgage? How many "dead broke" people have seven-figure book advances coming in, and monthly checks from six-figure pensions and salaries?


Very few. What does that mean? It's not like Clinton was recommending that broke people survive by borrowing from their parents, like Romney did. She was broke, but not poor. Does that make it better?
   2226. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:17 PM (#4724307)
Very few. What does that mean? It's not like Clinton was recommending that broke people survive by borrowing from their parents, like Romney did. She was broke, but not poor. Does that make it better?

LOL.

"I'm dead broke — except for my $1.7 million mansion, luxury lifestyle, and six-figure monthly income."

You can't be serious.
   2227. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:18 PM (#4724309)
It's even more basic than that: The proper role of religion in society. Getting that right is the first precept of modernity.

We have it right (though it took awhile), they have it not right.


From the birth of Jesus to the end of the Wars of Religion was around 1650 years. It's only been 1435 years since the Hijra.
   2228. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:19 PM (#4724311)
I've read the books, so I've got some expectations. It's not IF someone dies, but how they die that's going to matter to me. Plus, revelations for many, many people need to happen. I'm with Greg K, I worry about the time limitations. I trust the show runners to do a good job — they haven't let us down yet — but that's a lot of bang to be squished into 66 minutes.


I expect someone notable to die at court. I expect at least one character to end up on a boat. Possibly more. I expect some small pittance of a nod to the "and things happened while we waited on the dragons to grow up" story in the east, but not much else. I don't know that we'll see much in the way of the North or the Vale. I think those story lines may be wrapped up well enough until Season 5. I don't expect them to try to map seasons to books at all going forward.
   2229. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:21 PM (#4724313)
From the birth of Jesus to the end of the Wars of Religion was around 1650 years. It's only been 1435 years since the Hijra.


Don't confuse them with facts. The one is unwilling to consider the possibility that a religion other than his own might have accomplished something worthwhile in the world, and the other is seriously reeking of Leninism inclusive of the visceral hatred of the "opiate of the masses" in any form.
   2230. JE (Jason) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:23 PM (#4724318)
I trust the show runners to do a good job — they haven't let us down yet — but that's a lot of bang to be squished into 66 minutes.

Benioff and Weiss would be lousy OTP Primates. They manage to pack a wallop in a limited amount of time. In contrast, most of us say very little but spend the better part of a week trying to make a single point.
   2231. Ray (RDP) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:25 PM (#4724325)
How many "dead broke" people get a mortgage for a $1.7 million mansion in Chappaqua, let alone are able to pay said mortgage? How many "dead broke" people have seven-figure book advances coming in, and monthly checks from six-figure pensions and salaries?


Very few. What does that mean?


It means she's a liar.

Why liberals can't concede even the most obvious, basic, indisputable points about members of Team Blue is left as an exercise for the reader.

It's not like Clinton was recommending that broke people survive by borrowing from their parents, like Romney did. She was broke, but not poor. Does that make it better?


You still don't understand. She was not broke. That's the point. People who are broke have lost or are in danger of losing their car, their home. Of being evicted. Far from being on the brink of losing her home, she moved into a $1.7 million home. Along with all of the other factors noted, such as pensions and book advances and the like.
   2232. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:27 PM (#4724328)
From the birth of Jesus to the end of the Wars of Religion was around 1650 years. It's only been 1435 years since the Hijra.

The West had it right for centuries before the birth of Jesus, and Christianity didn't take over Rome for hundreds of years after Jesus's birth.

European Christianism lasted about 1200-1300 years. Even in the midst of that, there were beacons of light and progress -- England was working through the proper mix of secular, worldly power among political factions, including clergy, a mere few centuries after Christianism took over Rome.
   2233. JE (Jason) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:28 PM (#4724329)
I don't know that we'll see much in the way of the North or the Vale.

Well, we know from the previews that Mance Rayder will make an appearance.
   2234. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:33 PM (#4724339)
Why liberals can't concede even the most obvious, basic, indisputable points about members of Team Blue is left as an exercise for the reader.
I'm with Ray on this. She's obviously not dead broke. You can make the case that her debts are greater than her assets, but that doesn't mean anything with her revenue stream.

Partisans always defend their own liars. Ray, for example, will admit that the previous Administration lied about Iraq, but then he'll soften that up until it's cotton candy. If you wanna see a big lie, look up at the top of the page and remind yourself the claims about how much this was all supposed to cost us. Team Red won't lose any sleep over it, because they can only see the problems on the other side.
   2235. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:34 PM (#4724341)
Well, we know from the previews that Mance Rayder will make an appearance.


That would indicate a big add on event in the North, I'd think. We'll see. If it were me I'd let last Sunday be the end of the north story line for the season. Open with the next big thing up there next season.
   2236. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:35 PM (#4724342)
Oh! I forgot about Bran. They'll hit Bran's chapters in some detail I'd guess, given the name of the episode.
   2237. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:35 PM (#4724343)
And clearly [Hillary] won't be too diligent in combating inequality.

Then I guess you won't have to worry that she'll put you in a labor camp come 2017.
   2238. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:36 PM (#4724345)

You still don't understand. She was not broke. That's the point. People who are broke have lost or are in danger of losing their car, their home. Of being evicted.


Thank you Mr. Semantics. By your definition, if I go off into the woods with no possessions, build a log cabin, and live on berries and trapping, I'm not broke.
   2239. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:38 PM (#4724347)
I'm with Ray on this. She's obviously not dead broke. You can make the case that her debts are greater than her assets, but that doesn't mean anything with her revenue stream.


Yeah. You can see the data that leads her to make the statement. In 2000, they were technically underwater. But they weren't filing for bankruptcy any time soon and it's crap to pretend otherwise. It's a silly thing to say, and oh so very Clintonian. You want to walk up to her and say "Hillary, honey, darlin', sweetcheeks, you aren't Bill. You're not a "man from Hope." You're not going to play that up from scrabble thing to any effect. Run as a hard ass American Thatcher and be done with it." It's not like the GOP has anyone who could be her on that platform.
   2240. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:38 PM (#4724350)

The West had it right for centuries before the birth of Jesus,


Heck, I study the ancient world for a living, have a deep respect for it but ... no.

Even in the midst of that, there were beacons of light and progress -- England was working through the proper mix of secular, worldly power among political factions, including clergy, a mere few centuries after Christianism took over Rome.


And England expelled the Jews in 1290, one of the first European countries to do so. Meanwhile, Jewish communities were thriving in the Muslim world.
   2241. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:40 PM (#4724353)
It's a silly thing to say, and oh so very Clintonian


Agree 100% there. It's funny people are accusing me of mindlessly supporting "Team Blue" when I loathe the Clintons. I would vote for literally any other candidate in the Democratic primary.
   2242. Ray (RDP) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:43 PM (#4724357)
Agree 100% there. It's funny people are accusing me of mindlessly supporting "Team Blue" when I loathe the Clintons. I would vote for literally any other candidate in the Democratic primary.


But if the candidate is Hillary you will vote for her because, Team Blue.

If that -- and this full-throated defense against the charge that Hillary is a liar for painting herself as dead broke -- is not "mindlessly supporting Team Blue" I don't know what is.
   2243. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:44 PM (#4724359)
Partisans always defend their own liars. Ray, for example, will admit that the previous Administration lied about Iraq, but then he'll soften that up until it's cotton candy. If you wanna see a big lie, look up at the top of the page and remind yourself the claims about how much this was all supposed to cost us. Team Red won't lose any sleep over it, because they can only see the problems on the other side.


I think there is a bit of a difference. HRC lied about a state she was in, for effect, to tell a story. No one was killed in the telling of her sad tale of being broke (with millions on the way). The lie of the Iraq War killed hundreds of thousands and spent trillions.

Forgive me for being "partisan" enough to care more about one than the other. All exaggerations, lies, etc are not the same, in much the same way that having more liabilities than assets is not the same for all people. For some it is being broke, for those that served on the WalMart board, not so much.
   2244. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:44 PM (#4724360)
Well, we know from the previews that Mance Rayder will make an appearance.


Tyrion's sentence
The Boltons
Arya and the Hound
Littlefinger, Sansa, and the Vale
Stanis and his newfound loan money
Jon and Mance
Bran, Hodor and the Reeds
Brienne and Podrick
Daenerys (and Mormont)

I may have left something out. That's a lot of territory.
   2245. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:44 PM (#4724361)
But if the candidate is Hillary you will vote for her because, Team Blue.


And you will not, because "Team Not-Blue." Stop pretending you're above the fray.
   2246. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:46 PM (#4724367)
But if the candidate is Hillary you will vote for her because, Team Blue.


Because she will hew to his preferred political policies MUCH better than the alternatives (My guess anyway, maybe he hates the color red).
   2247. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:46 PM (#4724368)
Heck, I study the ancient world for a living, have a deep respect for it but ... no.

Religion had too big a role in Greco-Roman society? That's what I meant, though I guess it wasn't clear.

And England expelled the Jews in 1290, one of the first European countries to do so. Meanwhile, Jewish communities were thriving in the Muslim world.

I'd happily stipulate that Christianist Europe had the same kind of issues as its contemporary Arab Islam. I'm not sure what that shows, though, or why it's consistently brought up. The West modernized; Arab Islam didn't. That's the unfortunate historical fact we're doomed to live with. I wish it wasn't that way, very much so, but we shouldn't delude ourselves.

Moreover, I'm not really talking about religious tolerance here, but instead the relative roles of religion and secularism in society.
   2248. steagles Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:48 PM (#4724371)
The West had it right for centuries before the birth of Jesus
The West had it right for centuries before the birth of Jesus
The West had it right for centuries before the birth of Jesus
The West had it right for centuries before the birth of Jesus
The West had it right for centuries before the birth of Jesus
The West had it right for centuries before the birth of Jesus
The West had it right for centuries before the birth of Jesus
The West had it right for centuries before the birth of Jesus
The West had it right for centuries before the birth of Jesus
The West had it right for centuries before the birth of Jesus
The West had it right for centuries before the birth of Jesus
The West had it right for centuries before the birth of Jesus
The West had it right for centuries before the birth of Jesus
The West had it right for centuries before the birth of Jesus
The West had it right for centuries before the birth of Jesus
The West had it right for centuries before the birth of Jesus
yup.
   2249. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:48 PM (#4724373)
Religion had too big a role in Greco-Roman society?


Socrates was executed for being sacrilegious.
   2250. dr. scott Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:50 PM (#4724376)
Weather it was a lie or not (by which I mean, did SHE really believe what she said) the main problem with the statement is that its incredibly insensitive. If she does believe it, its because its coming from a POV that 99.5% of people have no clue about.

In the end even rich people are anxious and scared about finances. The anxiety and fear is real even if the consequences are very different than those who are poor who have the same anxieties. She should be smart enough to know that, and that no one is going to care about any anxieties she has in this regard. if she wants to connect to the 99% folks anxieties she can talk about difficulties with marriage (where she has had all sorts of issues) or raising children. Noone is going to "relate" to her anxieties about finances when she has so much upside, and what she may lose is something that most people could never imagine.

what most people call a lie in this respect is really just not being able to relate to the POV of the liar. i would not call them liars. i would call them wrong from my and most POV's, and its the POV that is the problem. This is all semantics on one level, but very important when dealing with conflict, as most conflicts arise from not understanding the POV of the antagonist and visa versa.
   2251. robinred Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:52 PM (#4724377)
You can see the data that leads her to make the statement. In 2000, they were technically underwater. But they weren't filing for bankruptcy any time soon and it's crap to pretend otherwise. It's a silly thing to say, and oh so very Clintonian.


Sure. So she was being disingenuous--that's the point. Being disingenuous isn't actually necessarily any better than telling a garden-variety lie and can actually be worse, depending on context. It was a dumb, tone-deaf thing for her to say.

The relevance to her election chances, if there is any, is that it shows, yet again, her tone-deafness, which may hurt her if she decides to get back in the fishbowl and run.
   2252. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:54 PM (#4724378)
If you wanna see a big lie, look up at the top of the page and remind yourself the claims about how much this was all supposed to cost us. Team Red won't lose any sleep over it, because they can only see the problems on the other side.

Meanwhile, Team Blue is counting the days until Hillary Clinton — someone apparently so dumb as to fall for said "big lie" — is president of the United States.
   2253. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:54 PM (#4724379)
Socrates was executed for being sacrilegious.

Uh, no.

   2254. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:55 PM (#4724380)
Meanwhile, Team Blue is counting the days until Hillary Clinton — someone apparently so dumb as to fall for said "big lie" — is president of the United States.
See? Even Joe knows better than to defend Team Red. He never tries. It's just attack, attack, attack.
   2255. Mefisto Posted: June 12, 2014 at 04:56 PM (#4724381)
Tyrion's sentence
The Boltons
Arya and the Hound
Littlefinger, Sansa, and the Vale
Stanis and his newfound loan money
Jon and Mance
Bran, Hodor and the Reeds
Brienne and Podrick
Daenerys (and Mormont)


I seriously doubt we'll see the Boltons and I'm guessing nothing on Sansa or LF either. Probably a very brief scene of Dany. I think we'll get the rest, but the details will count a lot.
   2256. Ray (RDP) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:04 PM (#4724387)
But if the candidate is Hillary you will vote for her because, Team Blue.

And you will not, because "Team Not-Blue." Stop pretending you're above the fray.


I voted for Bush in 2004, Barr in 2008, and I abstained in 2012. (I was not plugged in to care in 1992 or 1996 so I didn't vote in those elections, which was different from my decision to abstain in 2012.)

So while I wouldn't cast a D vote for president in the current era of Democrats, I don't vote R in every election, nor do I even vote in every election. In the three elections of my lifetime that I was tuned into (the last three) I voted R once.

So I'm not in the same relative boat as liberals at all.

If there is a liberal here who has either voted for a third party candidate or has abstained in a presidential election over the past 20 years, please identify yourself now.
   2257. The Good Face Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:04 PM (#4724388)
Socrates was executed for being sacrilegious.

Uh, no.


Socrates was executed for being a royal pain in the ass to powerful people. A modern Socrates probably wouldn't even get a trial, he'd just wind up assassinated, or "disappeared".
   2258. zenbitz Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:05 PM (#4724390)
But if the candidate is Hillary you will vote for her because, Team Blue.


I'll vote for her for the same reason I root against the Yankees in the World Series... I just hope it's not the Dodgers playing them
   2259. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:08 PM (#4724392)
Tyrion's sentence
The Boltons
Arya and the Hound
Littlefinger, Sansa, and the Vale
Stanis and his newfound loan money
Jon and Mance
Bran, Hodor and the Reeds
Brienne and Podrick
Daenerys (and Mormont)


In order:

King's Landing: Obviously
The Dreadfort: Why bother?
Arya/Hound: Yes
The Vale: No need; Lysa's death/Sansa's taking control of herself is a good stopping point
Stanis: I would open S5 with that action
Jon/Mance: I would wait until S5 to advance that story
Bran: Yes
Brienne/Pod: As with Littlefinger/Sansa, that story is at a good holding point
Danny: they'll hit on her because they didn't last week, but that story is at a good holding point too
   2260. Greg K Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:09 PM (#4724394)
Brienne/Pod: As with Littlefinger/Sansa, that story is at a good holding point

I think Brienne/Pod is a good choice for the final scene of the season.

Though this whole discussion is ranging dangerously close to spoiler territory, which I always feel bad about, so perhaps I'll bow out.
   2261. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:11 PM (#4724396)
If there is a liberal here who has either voted for a third party candidate or has abstained in a presidential election over the past 20 years, please identify yourself now.


Assuming I'm a liberal (I like to think of myself as farther to the left than that, but what the hell, my heart generally bleeds with the best of 'em), I voted for 3rd-party candidates in 1996 & 2000. Abstained in 2004, 2008 & 2012. Will be shocked if I don't do so again in 2016, though I guess miracles happen.
   2262. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:11 PM (#4724397)
Uh, no.


Uh, yeah. Corruption of the youth by teaching them to question the gods.
   2263. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:16 PM (#4724401)
My guess:

No Boltons
No Littlefinger/Sansa
No Brienne/Podrick

I think Arya and the Hound are dealt with fairly quickly. Same with the Bran storyline. They've kind of already dealt with Daenerys storyline through the end of the third book on the show, I see her in the promo, but they can get away with only have having her for a few minutes.

That leaves Tyrion, and the various wall storylines probably a good 40-45 minutes, if the episode is going 66. I think it's do-able, though there's no room for filler. There's certain aspects of the wall storylines *after* the big climax (trying not to go into spoilers) that are in the 3rd book, but aren't imperative to be dealt with this season (and I don't think will be, due to the time remaining and the fact that it involves some new characters interacting that had not previously).

Then 5 minutes or so for the epilogue, which can be compressed fairly simply, I think, while leaving a notable cliffhanger.

I guess there may be some Brienne/Podrick as they've really toyed with the timeline for them considerably. The thing about continually fast-forwarding their storyline (they're nearly a book ahead of the rest of the world) is that if they push their storyline to a possible inevitable point, the writers will be out of storyline for them. I don't think they want to move *past* released Martin material until they actually have to (probably sometime before the final book).
   2264. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:17 PM (#4724403)
If there is a liberal here who has either voted for a third party candidate or has abstained in a presidential election over the past 20 years, please identify yourself now.


88: GHWB
92: Perot (early 90s; very drunk at the time)
96: Clinton (the first time I ever voted for a D in any election, and the only D I voted for in that election)
00: Nader (voted in an attempt to get the Greens 3% of state returns, and thus guaranteed ballot access in future elections; failed)
04: Kerry (anti-Bush)
08: Obama (pro-Obama)
12: Obama (anti-R)

Until 2008, when I canvassed in the city for Obama registration drives, the only political campaign I'd ever personally been involved in was for Paul Coverdell's campaign against Wyche Fowler.

Do I get a cookie, Ray?
   2265. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:19 PM (#4724405)
Uh, yeah. Corruption of the youth by teaching them to question the gods.

Uh, no.

Sophistry and what Face said. The charges were invented to get to a result in a time of political tumult; for as much resemblance as they beared to the facts of the case, they might as well have charged him with von Winkelstern.

   2266. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:22 PM (#4724411)
I think Brienne/Pod is a good choice for the final scene of the season.
I've been waiting for that the entire season.
   2267. Ray (RDP) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:26 PM (#4724417)
Do I get a cookie, Ray?


You would have, but you didn't follow instructions. I asked for the last 20 years and you included 88 :-)
   2268. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:26 PM (#4724419)
Uh, no.

Sophistry and what Face said.


Your do realize the text is available online, right?

I have shown, Athenians, as I was saying, that Meletus has no care at all, great or small, about the matter. But still I should like to know, Meletus, in what I am affirmed to corrupt the young. I suppose you mean, as I infer from your indictment, that I teach them not to acknowledge the gods which the state acknowledges, but some other new divinities or spiritual agencies in their stead. These are the lessons which corrupt the youth, as you say.

Yes, that I say emphatically.

Then, by the gods, Meletus, of whom we are speaking, tell me and the court, in somewhat plainer terms, what you mean! for I do not as yet understand whether you affirm that I teach others to acknowledge some gods, and therefore do believe in gods and am not an entire atheist - this you do not lay to my charge; but only that they are not the same gods which the city recognizes - the charge is that they are different gods. Or, do you mean to say that I am an atheist simply, and a teacher of atheism?

I mean the latter - that you are a complete atheist.

That is an extraordinary statement, Meletus. Why do you say that? Do you mean that I do not believe in the godhead of the sun or moon, which is the common creed of all men?

I assure you, judges, that he does not believe in them; for he says that the sun is stone, and the moon earth.
   2269. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:27 PM (#4724420)
Double post.
   2270. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:29 PM (#4724421)
You would have, but you didn't follow instructions. I asked for the last 20 years and you included 88 :-)


True fact; I voted illegally in 1988. I was only 16. My mom let me vote for her.
   2271. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:31 PM (#4724429)
I think Brienne/Pod is a good choice for the final scene of the season.
I've been waiting for that the entire season.


Not sure if they get to that this season.
   2272. tfbg9 Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:36 PM (#4724439)
In the Woody Allen short story, Socrates is executed for "repeatedly clearing his throat" whenever the Philosopher King concept is discussed in the Senate.
   2273. tfbg9 Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:37 PM (#4724441)
Something like that.
   2274. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:38 PM (#4724445)
If there is a liberal here who has either voted for a third party candidate or has abstained in a presidential election over the past 20 years, please identify yourself now.


If you want to call me liberal (feel free): I voted for Perot twice and Gary Johnson in 2012.
   2275. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:40 PM (#4724447)
The culture wars and national polarization continue apace:

Three-out-of-ten (30%) consistent conservatives say they would be unhappy if an immediate family member married a Democrat and about a quarter (23%) of across-the-board liberals say the same about the prospect of a Republican in-law.

These numbers are a national embarrassment.
   2276. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:41 PM (#4724450)
True fact; I voted illegally in 1988. I was only 16. My mom let me vote for her.


There you have it folks, voter fraud in the flesh.
   2277. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:43 PM (#4724451)
Your do realize the text is available online, right?

And it was available offline before online even existed.

You do know that the trial was more than three paragraphs?
   2278. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:52 PM (#4724473)
You do know that the trial was more than three paragraphs?


It's been a while, but yeah, I've read the whole goshdarned thing once or twice. Socrates was tried for corruption of the youth and teaching them that the gods were not true.
   2279. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:57 PM (#4724481)
1984: Ronald Reagan
1988: George Bush
1992: Wrote someone in; can't remember who, Bob Kerrey maybe (walked through broken glass to vote for Paul Tsongas in the D primary)
1996: No one
2000: W (*) (walked through broken glass to vote for Bill Bradley in the D primary)
2004: John Kerry
2008: Barack Obama
2012: Barack Obama

I don't know that I've ever voted for a Republican down-ticket; if so, they're few and far between.

(*) As many friends would attest, I almost immediately disowned this vote -- but I never voted for the Clinton-Gore machine and couldn't then either. There's zero chance I'll vote for Hillary Clinton.
   2280. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:57 PM (#4724482)
FWIW as a conservative, in 2008 I voted for Obama and in 2004, I was so torn I walked out of the box without voting. I did, however, vote GWB in 2004 and 2000, so joke's on me.
   2281. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:58 PM (#4724484)
It's been a while, but yeah, I've read the whole goshdarned thing once or twice. Socrates was tried for corruption of the youth and teaching them that the gods were not true.

That's the Cliff Notes version. It isn't reality or capital T Truth.
   2282. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 05:59 PM (#4724485)
I'd happily stipulate that Christianist Europe had the same kind of issues as its contemporary Arab Islam. I'm not sure what that shows, though, or why it's consistently brought up. The West modernized; Arab Islam didn't.


It refutes the notion (not yours, perhaps) that Western civilization is naturally enlightened and Islamic civilization necessarily barbaric.

Western civilization has, for now at least, managed largely to create a liberal social order, after countless religious wars and two massive World Wars. Let's not pat ourselves on the back too much.

The Islamic world will get there, too, but not at the point of a Western bayonet.
   2283. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 06:01 PM (#4724489)

But if the candidate is Hillary you will vote for her because, Team Blue.

If that -- and this full-throated defense against the charge that Hillary is a liar for painting herself as dead broke -- is not "mindlessly supporting Team Blue" I don't know what is.


No, I would vote for her because her election would lead to results more closely aligned with my preferences than the likely Republican candidate.

If electing the Republican candidate would lead to my preferred results and he lied 10 times as much as Hillary, I'd vote for him too.
   2284. Ray (RDP) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 06:02 PM (#4724490)
You still don't understand. She was not broke. That's the point. People who are broke have lost or are in danger of losing their car, their home. Of being evicted.

Thank you Mr. Semantics. By your definition, if I go off into the woods with no possessions, build a log cabin, and live on berries and trapping, I'm not broke.


Is your log cabin worth $1.7 million? Then no, you're not broke.

But more to the point, I have no idea what you're talking about. My "definition" of broke, which can be inferred from my comments since I didn't specifically lay one out, is having no money, no assets, no earning potential, no pensions, no friends willing to loan you a boat load of money so that you can buy a mansion, no pending income streams from book deals, and a danger of being evicted.

Why one would look at all of those factors and say "Aha! If I build a log cabin out in the woods then I am in no danger of being evicted and thus I am not broke!!!!" is anyone's guess. (And in that situation, "broke" is sort of a meaningless concept anyway, since you're not trying to live amongst normal society and so don't need money and so the "definition" that is being used as applied to normal society is not useful. Please try to stay within relevant context when coming up with rebuttal arguments. Of course, the reason you needed to switch contexts is because there really is no argument that she was "dead broke" in the context we were talking about.)
   2285. Mefisto Posted: June 12, 2014 at 06:09 PM (#4724495)
My "definition" of broke, which can be inferred from my comments since I didn't specifically lay one out, is having no money, no assets, no earning potential, no pensions, no friends willing to loan you a boat load of money so that you can buy a mansion, no pending income streams from book deals, and a danger of being evicted.


It's really sweet that you have your own definition. The Bankruptcy Code, though, allows bankruptcy if your liabilities exceed your assets. By that standard, and assuming Hilary told the truth about being $12 million in debt, the Clintons were bankrupt at that point.
   2286. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 06:09 PM (#4724496)

1992: Wrote someone in; can't remember who, Bob Kerrey maybe (walked through broken glass to vote for Paul Tsongas in the D primary)
1996: No one
2000: W (*) (walked through broken glass to vote for Bill Bradley in the D primary)


I hope you moved to another area, or at least that whoever was responsible for keeping the streets &/or sidewalks near your polling place(s) clear started being a lot more conscientious about doing so.

   2287. CraigK Posted: June 12, 2014 at 06:14 PM (#4724501)
The culture wars and national polarization continue apace:

Three-out-of-ten (30%) consistent conservatives say they would be unhappy if an immediate family member married a Democrat and about a quarter (23%) of across-the-board liberals say the same about the prospect of a Republican in-law.

These numbers are a national embarrassment.


I still want to know what dark wizardy James Carville and Mary Matalin use to stay together.
   2288. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: June 12, 2014 at 06:15 PM (#4724502)
Three-out-of-ten (30%) consistent conservatives say they would be unhappy if an immediate family member married a Democrat and about a quarter (23%) of across-the-board liberals say the same about the prospect of a Republican in-law.


These numbers are a national embarrassment.

Completely agree. What are people afraid of?

--------------------------------------------------------

But if the candidate is Hillary you will vote for her because, Team Blue.

And if Hillary and Bill gave every last cent of their personal fortunes to charity, you still wouldn't vote for her because, anti-Team Blue. Which doesn't prove anything beyond that the whole implication behind your innuendo is just dumb as a rock. You'd probably vote for Robin Hood if he campaigned on a 10% flat tax program and the repeal of Obamacare.
   2289. JE (Jason) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 06:15 PM (#4724503)
   2290. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: June 12, 2014 at 06:16 PM (#4724504)
I still want to know what dark wizardy James Carville and Mary Matalin use to stay together.

A pair of blindfolds and a marketing schtick.
   2291. Ray (RDP) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 06:17 PM (#4724507)
It's really sweet that you have your own definition. The Bankruptcy Code, though, allows bankruptcy if your liabilities exceed your assets. By that standard, and assuming Hilary told the truth about being $12 million in debt, the Clintons were bankrupt at that point.


That's nice, but we were talking about the ordinary meaning of the word broke, not the legal definition of bankruptcy under the Bankruptcy Code.

Not that the Clintons filed for bankruptcy, anyway.
   2292. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 12, 2014 at 06:19 PM (#4724510)
It's really sweet that you have your own definition. The Bankruptcy Code, though, allows bankruptcy if your liabilities exceed your assets. By that standard, and assuming Hilary told the truth about being $12 million in debt, the Clintons were bankrupt at that point.

LOL.

"Please discharge our debts, your honor, but pay no attention to our new $1.7 million mansion in Chappaqua or our eight-figure income stream. We're dead broke. Trust us."
   2293. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 12, 2014 at 06:19 PM (#4724511)
Three-out-of-ten (30%) consistent conservatives say they would be unhappy if an immediate family member married a Democrat and about a quarter (23%) of across-the-board liberals say the same about the prospect of a Republican in-law.

These numbers are a national embarrassment.


What if for "Democrat" or "Republican," the poll substituted "Yankees fan"?
   2294. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 12, 2014 at 06:25 PM (#4724515)
The Bankruptcy Code, though, allows bankruptcy if your liabilities exceed your assets. By that standard, and assuming Hilary told the truth about being $12 million in debt, the Clintons were bankrupt at that point.

Perhaps someone with real expertise will chime in, but I don't believe it is that easy to get your debts discharged in bankruptcy just because those debts temporarily exceed your assets, when you're sitting on an income stream that is more than adequate to pay off those debts over a reasonable interval. Since the Clintons were able to borrow enough to finance not one, but two mansions, it looks like the banks didn't consider them bankrupt, either. Even Dead Broke Hillary hasn't made that argument, although I remain hopeful that she will follow Mefisto's lead.
   2295. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 12, 2014 at 06:29 PM (#4724520)
That's the Cliff Notes version. It isn't reality or capital T Truth.


OH! Capital T Truth. You'r so quaint.
   2296. zenbitz Posted: June 12, 2014 at 06:30 PM (#4724522)

Voted for Nader in 2000. Did not vote for Clinton in 1996, although I did vote for Hilary when she ran for US Senate (NY) ... was that 2000?
I wasn't super happy about Obama in 2012 but really. I don't think I've ever voted for a republican, ever. Although in the end Arnold wasn't a half bad governor - I'd vote for him maybe if he ran again.

   2297. zenbitz Posted: June 12, 2014 at 06:34 PM (#4724524)
Is the middle east any more illiberal and authoritarian than Sub-saharan Africa, Central & South America or SE Asia (India aside)? Hell - or east Asia? Japan has a strong liberal democratic tradition going all the way back to 1946!

MAYBE IT'S GENETIC
   2298. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: June 12, 2014 at 06:38 PM (#4724526)
Perhaps someone with real expertise will chime in, but I don't believe it is that easy to get your debts discharged in bankruptcy just because those debts temporarily exceed your assets, when you're sitting on an income stream that is more than adequate to pay off those debts over a reasonable interval.


In theory those debtors go to Chapter 11 or 13.
It used to be possible (well it's still possible but it used to be easier) for someone with plenty of income but little or no assets to file for a chapter 7 and get their debts discharged, surprisingly it took a long time for that feature to get really abused, and then Congress changed a few rules in an effort to force debtors with income into 13 rather than 7.
   2299. Jick Posted: June 12, 2014 at 06:39 PM (#4724527)
It's been a while, but yeah, I've read the whole goshdarned thing once or twice. Socrates was tried for corruption of the youth and teaching them that the gods were not true.


But also for introducing new gods, so the official indictment should hardly be taken at first value. Socrates makes it clear in Plato's version that he knew it was really for being a "gadfly."

(I've read it in Greek, for what that's worth...which isn't much other than bragging rights, so brag I will.)
   2300. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: June 12, 2014 at 06:45 PM (#4724529)
The answer to 2297 is yes*.
More to the point, the most illiberal parts of say, Sub-Saharan Africa, are places like the Boko Haram controlled parts of Nigeria- which of course has largely been influenced by recent Arab Islamist ideologues
then you have places like the Pashtun areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Which is not to say that other parts of the world/cultures have not experienced spasms of extreme authoritarianism/illiberalness, but in the Arab world the last century its really been widespread and entrenched



*Ok Nork is a special case.
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