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Monday, June 02, 2014

OTP - June 2014: Iraq war costs U.S. more than $2 trillion: study

NEW YORK (Reuters) - The U.S. war in Iraq has cost $1.7 trillion with an additional $490 billion in benefits owed to war veterans, expenses that could grow to more than $6 trillion over the next four decades counting interest, a study released on Thursday said.

The war has killed at least 134,000 Iraqi civilians and may have contributed to the deaths of as many as four times that number, according to the Costs of War Project by the Watson Institute for International Studies at Brown University.

When security forces, insurgents, journalists and humanitarian workers were included, the war’s death toll rose to an estimated 176,000 to 189,000, the study said.

Bitter Mouse Posted: June 02, 2014 at 07:48 AM | 4613 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: otp, politics, stupid ideas

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   3201. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 18, 2014 at 01:29 PM (#4729452)
Thanks Lassus that makes sense


Obligatory --

It's a trap!
   3202. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 18, 2014 at 01:33 PM (#4729458)
There's pretty clearly widespread corruption at the IRS.


Paranoids ALWAYS have enemies. Everywhere. Pretty much by definition.
   3203. Publius Publicola Posted: June 18, 2014 at 01:44 PM (#4729465)
Failed to effectively counter the rise of ISIS and Putin


Sugar, let's set aside ISIs for a moment because it's still too erly in the gam to make a call on that one.

How in the world do you figure Putin got a "rise"? He grabbed land that didn't belong to him, lost Russia's G-8 +2 position, politically isolating him, he tanked his economy and so has little room to maneuver, he was forced to back off his overt aggression when he saw the situation turning against him, he is in the process of losing forever his foreign currency cash cow (the European gas markets) and so had to cut a desperate deal with China that was highly disadvantagous to save at least some sort of foreign market (and you know that China will just bail on their commitments if in the unlikely chance gas prices increase markedly in the next few years and they see an economic incentive so he really didn't get anything out of that).

If you think some crappy irrelevant peninsula that he'll eventually be forced to cede back anyway is worth all that, I think I have a bridge to sell you.
   3204. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 18, 2014 at 01:50 PM (#4729470)
Of course linking to these polls wouldn't fall into your "job" category, but that's cool. I can see why the Republicans are still clinging to Benghazi, and praying that something, anything sticks.

I fail to see how polling on one potential 2016 Democratic candidate negates the increasingly abundant evidence of the Democrats dismal 2014 prospects. It's just too far out to take 2016 polls seriously. Remember how far ahead George H. W. Bush was a year before the 1992 election?

Furthermore, Hillary's Sec'y of State tenure and her relatively low profile (until recently) after leaving office, allowed her to stay above the day-to-day political fray. Remember how well Colin Powell polled when he was above the fray? Or "Generic Candidate"? That changes considerably once someone runs. There aren't a lot of non-Hillary matchup polls out there, but the ones I've seen for Biden aren't very good. So maybe one shouldn't count one's chickens before they hatch. 2014 matters, and it's getting close.
   3205. Publius Publicola Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:03 PM (#4729492)
I fail to see how polling on one potential 2016 Democratic candidate negates the increasingly abundant evidence of the Democrats dismal 2014 prospects.


Because 2014 isn't important. Even if the GOP wins the Senate, that will only benefit the Team Blue because it will just give the Repubs more opportunity to #### up and damage their brand leading into the crucial 2016 presidential election.

I read somewhere, can't remember where, that The presidency has as much leverage as 28 senate seats. So as long as the man (or woman) in the big chair swings blue and has that veto card to play, the GOP are screwed.

Ppersonally, that's what I think will happen. Some more wacko Teapers will get elected in red states, doing more stupid #### like Cruz pulled with the shutdown, and a voter reaction amongst independents and moderate republicans will swing the election easily, not just in the presidential, but congressional seats in purple and some red states as well.
   3206. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:05 PM (#4729495)
Paranoids ALWAYS have enemies. Everywhere. Pretty much by definition.

Your King loves how you curtsy before him.
   3207. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:07 PM (#4729498)
How in the world do you figure Putin got a "rise"?

Because he stopped Ukraine from joining the West and devoured territory and gained significant public support in his propaganda campaign.

Like the Islamists, he's on an aggressive ascent.
   3208. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:09 PM (#4729500)
Obama's "reset" discarded the sticks, Mouse.


What "sticks" existed prior to the "reset" that were suddenly unavailable after the "reset," Jason?
   3209. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:15 PM (#4729512)
Because 2014 isn't important.

Yet Democrats are raising & spending huge amounts to contest the mid-term election. Maybe they should just tell everyone "It doesn't matter" and "No one cares". Seems to work for some here.
   3210. Publius Publicola Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:16 PM (#4729514)
Quote ofrom the Cheney pere and fils WSJ op-ed about Obama and Iraq:

Rarely has a U.S. president been so wrong about so much at the expense of so many.


Wow. That take some major league lack of self-reflexion to write something like that.

   3211. Publius Publicola Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:18 PM (#4729516)
Because he stopped Ukraine from joining the West


No he didn't. The president they just elected is very West-leaning and they are moving ahead to join the EU and do all they can to lessen their ties to Russia. Haven't you been reading the new?
   3212. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:18 PM (#4729518)
What "sticks" existed prior to the "reset" that were suddenly unavailable after the "reset," Jason?

I'm not Jason, but ... the missile defense sites in Poland and the Czech Republic, which he unilaterally gave up.
   3213. Publius Publicola Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:19 PM (#4729520)
Yet Democrats are raising & spending huge amounts to contest the mid-term election.


So what? Both parties spend during elections. That means nothing.

Total non sequitur, Clapper.
   3214. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:20 PM (#4729522)
Paranoids ALWAYS have enemies. Everywhere. Pretty much by definition.


There's an interesting dynamic at play here. Not universally applicable to Dan and his crusade against Lois Lerner, et al, but certainly at play with the right wings in general. It's relevant today as the Fox wingnuts are up in arms because, in their telling, Obama waited until it was "politically advantageous" to capture the Benghazi guy. Now, of course, the only place the timing of this capture is "politically advantageous" to Obama is in the Fox nutwing swamps, where something something something outrage-of-the-day is going on or something. I think this one has to do with Hillary's book tour and "dead-broke-gate" or something. Who can really tell any more?

But that's kind of the brilliant end game of the Fox constant outrage machine, right? If you constantly gin up every event on the planet as a "crisis" and "outrage," harp on them nonstop, 24/7, no matter when something good happens, you can claim the good thing was politically timed by nefarious evildoers to detract from whatever the made up outrage of the day might be. It's so utterly cynical it's beyond any common usage of the term "cynical," but at the same time, when you know you have a willing audience of willfully stupid outrage hounds taking you seriously, it's absolutely brilliant too.
   3215. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:20 PM (#4729523)
No he didn't. The president they just elected is very West-leaning and they are moving ahead to join the EU and do all they can to lessen their ties to Russia. Haven't you been reading the new?

He stopped it from happening last winter and as for now, I'll believe it when I see it. Putin is still fomenting (entirely illegitimate) discord and violence in Eastern Ukraine. He's also cut off Ukraine's gas supplies in the last couple days.
   3216. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:21 PM (#4729524)
Because he stopped Ukraine from joining the West and devoured territory and gained significant public support in his propaganda campaign.


And then he taunted us a second time. While not killing Muslims. It's unforgivable. We should probably nuke Moscow.

WATCH OUT BEAR, I THINK THERE'S AN AIRPLANE IN THE AREA!!
   3217. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:22 PM (#4729527)
But that's kind of the brilliant end game of the Fox constant outrage machine, right? If you constantly gin up every event on the planet as a "crisis" and "outrage," harp on them nonstop, 24/7, no matter when something good happens, you can claim the good thing was politically timed by nefarious evildoers to detract from whatever the made up outrage of the day might be. It's so utterly cynical it's beyond any common usage of the term "cynical," but at the same time, when you know you have a willing audience of willfully stupid outrage hounds taking you seriously, it's absolutely brilliant too.

I don't watch Fox. I do deal with big agencies and email discovery ... and agencies like the IRS don't "lose" employee emails.
   3218. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:22 PM (#4729528)
I'm not Jason, but ... the missile defense sites in Poland and the Czech Republic, which he unilaterally gave up.


Are you suggesting that had the US installed missile defense sites in Poland and Czech Republic that Russian would not have annexed Crimea?
   3219. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:25 PM (#4729532)
Are you suggesting that had the US installed missile defense sites in Poland and Czech Republic that Russian would not have annexed Crimea?

I'm suggesting that Obama unilaterally gave up sticks and chips as part of the ridiculous "reset," which was your question. At that point, Putin knew he had a pushover on his hands.

The pointless 2009 escalation in Afghan and the unilateral removal of the planned missile defense sites in the same year were both extremely poor decisions. Extremely poor.

   3220. Publius Publicola Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:28 PM (#4729536)
He's also cut off Ukraine's gas supplies in the last couple days.


And how do you figure that will strenthen Ukraine's ties to Russia? It will do exactly the opposite. It will force Ukraine to develop alternative suppies and then it will be russia who is dependent on Ukraine becaue all their pipelines going west traffic through Ukraine.

That's more desperation from Putin. Putin also just got ############ by Russia's finance agency by denying his request to provide investment capital to Gazprom. And Gazprom's access to capital from abroad was just recently cut off, because of...
   3221. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:28 PM (#4729537)
I'm suggesting that Obama unilaterally gave up sticks and chips as part of the ridiculous "reset," which was your question.


And I'm saying that your theoretical "sticks" are make believe. But I'm sure if Obama had allowed you to waggle your big mansack at him while lecturing expertly on the glories of robust liberalism at the point of a gun, he'd have totally run away from you. Hell, Poland would have probably annexed Moscow by now.
   3222. Publius Publicola Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:30 PM (#4729539)
I'm suggesting that Obama unilaterally gave up sticks and chips as part of the ridiculous "reset


Bear, are you saying you're cool with Obama being blackmailed by Putin to give up defense missile sites in Poland under the threat of annexing Crimea?

Because it sounds an awful lot like that.
   3223. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:31 PM (#4729540)
The pointless 2009 escalation in Afghan and the unilateral removal of the planned missile defense sites in the same year were both extremely poor decisions. Extremely poor.


I'm honestly getting to the point that "whatever SBB thinks is good is probably mind alteringly stupid"
   3224. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:33 PM (#4729545)
Bear, are you saying you're cool with Obama being blackmailed by Putin to give up defense missile sites in Poland under the threat of annexing Crimea?

Because it sounds an awful lot like that.


I'm saying it was ridiculous to unilaterally give up chips to Putin as part of a silly "reset" that closely in the wake of his Georgian excursion. He threated Obama over the missile defense sites and Obama gave in.

That's what happened. If you want to concoct some fantasyland where those things don't matter, you're free to do so, but that's what it is -- fantasyland.
   3225. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:34 PM (#4729547)
So this is the "missile defense" that doesn't really work and doesn't gain anyone anything and if we decided could be put in tomorrow? That missile defense?

On another note, elections always matter. 2014 will suck for Democrats is we lose the Senate. Oh well. And as I have said before if ACA (and Benghazi!, with a side of "losing email") means losing the Senate in 2014 it was totally worth it.
   3226. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:34 PM (#4729548)
If you want to concoct some fantasyland where those things don't matter, you're free to do so, but that's what it is -- fantasyland.


You should probably not go outside today. I hear there are buildings out there man. Buildings. With shadows!
   3227. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:37 PM (#4729551)
Like the Islamists, he's on an aggressive ascent.


Seeing as how Putin lost more than he gained regarding Ukraine, I think I now understand your "Society is declining" certainty. You really don't get good versus bad.
   3228. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:37 PM (#4729552)
I'm honestly getting to the point that "whatever SBB thinks is good is probably mind alteringly stupid"

That's because at your core, you don't believe in the superiority of Western civilization to Islamism and Putinism. That's the fundamental problem with the foreign policy of the extreme left, and has been forever. (That core belief bleeds into domestic policy as well, but that's ultra vires to the current discussion.)
   3229. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:43 PM (#4729554)

That's because at your core, you don't believe in the superiority of Western civilization to Islamism and Putinism. That's the fundamental problem with the foreign policy of the extreme left, and has been forever. (That core belief bleeds into domestic policy as well, but that's ultra vires to the current discussion.)


Point of order, the left is not the ones peeing themselves over tough guy Putin and the ever so scary ISIS. We know the west will win and take the long view.
   3230. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:44 PM (#4729555)
That's because at your core, you don't believe in the superiority of Western civilization to Islamism and Putinism.


No, it's because I don't believe, "at my core," that you taking Putin's own revanchist imperialism and wrapping them up in an American flag makes them any less disgusting.
   3231. The Good Face Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:44 PM (#4729556)
But that's kind of the brilliant end game of the Fox constant outrage machine, right? If you constantly gin up every event on the planet as a "crisis" and "outrage," harp on them nonstop, 24/7, no matter when something good happens, you can claim the good thing was politically timed by nefarious evildoers to detract from whatever the made up outrage of the day might be. It's so utterly cynical it's beyond any common usage of the term "cynical," but at the same time, when you know you have a willing audience of willfully stupid outrage hounds taking you seriously, it's absolutely brilliant too.


This is just more Who? Whom? nonsense. If the Dubya administration had been ballsy enough to run with a "the dog ate our emails" coverup when faced with scandals, the left would have blown a collective gasket. The editorial page of the NYT would talk of nothing else for months. The smirking amusement on the part of the left WRT this coverup is emblematic of the declining levels of social trust in this country though, just another step towards 3rd world tribalism.
   3232. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:45 PM (#4729557)
Point of order, the left is not the ones peeing themselves over tough guy Putin and the ever so scary ISIS.

Only because Obama is president. It's not an objective stance (or even a real one), but a purely partisan one. No one takes such things seriously.
   3233. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:46 PM (#4729558)
The smirking amusement on the part of the left WRT this coverup is emblematic of the declining levels of social trust in this country though, just another step towards 3rd world tribalism.


You forgot to say the Iranian revolution was the beginning of the decline. I grade you down on points.
   3234. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:48 PM (#4729560)
No, it's because I don't believe, "at my core," that you taking Putin's own revanchist imperialism and wrapping them up in an American flag makes them any less disgusting.

The fact that you would call my points "disgusting" proves the point. You reflexively blanche at any claim of Western cultural superiority, and that's what brings out the typical attack words -- "disgusting," "racist," "fascist," etc.

There's nothing remotely "disgusting" in anything I've said, and that sort of lingo speaks volumes.

   3235. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:48 PM (#4729561)
Only because Obama is president. It's not an objective stance (or even a real one), but a purely partisan one. No one takes such things seriously.


Shockingly you are wrong. I was not terrified about Putin when Bush was President either and I was actually OK with Bushes response to Georgia. And during Bushes error filled presidency it was not me who wanted to invade Iraq because "oh no, scary yellowcake!".
   3236. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:48 PM (#4729562)
No one takes such things seriously.


No one takes your pants-shitting fear that somewhere a Muslim might not be being tortured until he repents his heresy seriously, no. Honestly, how do you get groceries since 9/11? Obviously you can't go outside for the wanton danger. But you can't trust that the delivery guy won't be Muslim either. It must be terrible for you.
   3237. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:49 PM (#4729564)
I was not terrified about Putin when Bush was President either and I was actually OK with Bushes response to Georgia.


Yep. It was one of those moments where all sane men were grateful, yet again, that John McCain had lost.
   3238. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:49 PM (#4729565)
The smirking amusement on the part of the left WRT this coverup is emblematic of the declining levels of social trust in this country though, just another step towards 3rd world tribalism.

The left has literally no interest in Obama running a non-corrupt civil service, if the corrupt ends and corrupt means are anti-Republican.

Two different countries. Cold civil war.

Unambiguous decline.
   3239. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:50 PM (#4729566)
The fact that you would call my points "disgusting" proves the point. You reflexively blanche at any claim of Western cultural superiority, and that's what brings out the typical attack words -- "disgusting," "racist," "fascist," etc.


Your bubble is strong. Impervious to outside influence. Fear not for your bubble. But don't go outside. I hear they opened the airports again.
   3240. Shredder Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:51 PM (#4729567)
and agencies like the IRS don't "lose" employee emails.
Because big government bureaucracies built layer upon layer are always incompetent and never get anything right, until there's a whiff of scandal, at which point they become evil geniuses whose every move is calculated, plotted out years in advance, and executed with ruthless efficiency. And its those same agencies, which are constantly underfunded, that have all of the state of the technology at their disposal. What cunning, cunning geniuses they are at the IRS. Be afraid, Sugarbear. They really are out to get you.
   3241. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:53 PM (#4729573)
Look, I have not been following the "OMG missing email" super closely (boring non-scandal is boring), but no kidding large organizations only keep email archived on servers so long. My understanding is it is kept 6 months at the IRS (which is fairly typical). However email does hang out on end users PCs, until those PCs crash and the hard disk is lost (which happens - happened to me last year in fact).

The assumption that everything is always kept on backup and the only way something could be lost is a conspiracy can only come from those who are ignorant or so blinded by partisan feelings, well it just has to be a conspiracy (like the Vince Foster nonsense of yesteryear or the Obama birth certificate silliness).
   3242. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:54 PM (#4729574)
Honestly, how do you get groceries since 9/11? Obviously you can't go outside for the wanton danger. But you can't trust that the delivery guy won't be Muslim either. It must be terrible for you.

Muslims are great. And I've ridden the subway and worked in tall downtown office buildings virtually every weekday since 9/11. And worked out at the Jewish Community Center.

Terrorism doesn't scare me at all.

The bigger question is why you would have ever thought it does.

You and BM are the ones far away from the zones of vulnerability, in the swamps and lily-white suburbs -- not me.
   3243. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:55 PM (#4729576)
Your bubble is strong. Impervious to outside influence. Fear not for your bubble. But don't go outside. I hear they opened the airports again.

You reflexively blanche at any claim of Western cultural superiority, and resort to slurs, falsehoods, and ad hominems any time that superiority is broached. You've done it again.
   3244. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:58 PM (#4729579)
Honestly, how do you get groceries since 9/11? Obviously you can't go outside for the wanton danger. But you can't trust that the delivery guy won't be Muslim either. It must be terrible for you.


Perhaps his mother's basement is actually a well-stocked root cellar?
   3245. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:58 PM (#4729580)
You reflexively blanche at any claim of Western cultural superiority, and resort to slurs, falsehoods, and ad hominems any time that superiority is broached.


No, mostly just when you talk. Because you've proved there's no real reason to attempt any other response. You are a neocon in love with war against all, for the sake of your own sense of superiority.

And notably, with no skin in the game.
   3246. Lassus Posted: June 18, 2014 at 02:59 PM (#4729581)
You reflexively blanche at any claim of Western cultural superiority, and that's what brings out the typical attack words -- "disgusting," "racist," "fascist," etc.

I don't know about those terms; with the claim referenced, I'd stick with "simple," and "common."
   3247. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:01 PM (#4729582)
What cunning, cunning geniuses they are at the IRS.


Well, Wife No. 2 (& her Husband No. 5) both worked PR at the IRS in DC till her recentish retirement, & now she's big into remote viewing & that sort of crap, so ... uh ...
   3248. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:01 PM (#4729583)
No, mostly just when you talk. Because you've proved there's no real reason to attempt any other response. You are a neocon in love with war against all, for the sake of your own sense of superiority.

I don't have a personal sense of superiority, but Western civilization is plainly superior to Islamism and Putinism.

It's not even close.

When Islamism declares war against the United States, as it clearly has, the United States is fully justified in fighting back.
   3249. Ron J2 Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:07 PM (#4729591)
#3241 There may be a statutory obligation to keep emails for a longer period. Honestly don't know.
   3250. Publius Publicola Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:07 PM (#4729593)
Shockingly you are wrong. I was not terrified about Putin when Bush was President


That's because you were comforted that Dubya looked into his eyes and read his soul, Bitter.
   3251. The Good Face Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:08 PM (#4729594)
The smirking amusement on the part of the left WRT this coverup is emblematic of the declining levels of social trust in this country though, just another step towards 3rd world tribalism.

You forgot to say the Iranian revolution was the beginning of the decline. I grade you down on points.


Non-responsive as usual, but a fine example of smirking amusement at civil service corruption that serves the interests of your tribe.
   3252. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:08 PM (#4729596)
I don't have a personal sense of superiority, but Western civilization is plainly superior to Islamism and Putinism.

It's not even close.


I love how it is plainly superior, but in your opinion also declining. While Islamism (dumb word) and Putin are clearly on the rise. This is why you are afraid. You think the superior world is decadent and losing its grip to the vigorous barbarians.

And since I think it is also plainly superior and ascending, while Putin and random scary fundamentalists are declining (or holding still at best) I am not frightened. You could argue I am not frightened enough, but to suggest I am too frightened is nonsensical (not that this has ever stopped you before).

And as the non-frightened one here (well one of) let me suggest that Putin is not a threat to the West (Nuclear war aside) and ISIS is not a threat to the west. Neither is the Taliban nor is AQ. They can damage us, but can not really threaten us, can not truly damage us without our willing help (see Iraq, invasion of).
   3253. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:09 PM (#4729597)
With a 37 percent approval rating on foreign policy, I think it's pretty clear that the concerns raised over Benghazi have gotten some traction.
If only Obama could have gotten Bush's Iraq and Afghanistan approval ratings. Those turned out so well.
   3254. Publius Publicola Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:10 PM (#4729599)
Because big government bureaucracies built layer upon layer are always incompetent and never get anything right, until there's a whiff of scandal, at which point they become evil geniuses whose every move is calculated, plotted out years in advance, and executed with ruthless efficiency.


I had to laugh at this.

Pretty good, Shredder.

I'm a pragmatist when it comes to the IRS. I don't like it when they abuse their authority. But if they are abusing it to screw the Tea Party, then it's all good and serves the public interest well.

I also think the IRS should use the Google surveillance systems to find anybody who claims to be a libertarian and audit their gold-brickin' asses.
   3255. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:14 PM (#4729604)
While Islamism (dumb word)

Sure it is.

Exhibit A. You and yours literally can't stomach a true descriptive word about a non-Western faction used by virtually the entire political mainstream.

Neither is the Taliban nor is AQ. They can damage us, but can not really threaten us, can not truly damage us without our willing help (see Iraq, invasion of).

So the 9/11 attacks didn't "truly damage" us, but our soldiers invading Iraq did. Because it's not "damaging" when terrorists kill a bunch of people and knock down two major buildings, but it is "damaging" when we do things that "create more terrorists."

Or something.
   3256. Ron J2 Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:17 PM (#4729608)
Should note that backup is part of my job. I haven't found much of interest in the coverage so far.
   3257. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:20 PM (#4729616)
(I had no idea till I checked IMDb just now to make sure I'd correctly remembered his first name that Zwigoff also directed Bad Santa, as well as the Daniel Clowes-based Ghost World & Art School Confidential.)


Boy I loved "Ghost World". I like Daniel Clowes' particular breed of misanthropy in general but this movie totally nailed it for me, even when it deviated (pretty significantly) from Clowes' own story.

"Bad Santa" on the other hand, was one of the lousiest crapfests I ever saw. I'm sorry, call me a rube but I like to have some sort of empathy for the primary character in a two-hour movie (it ain't like Enid from "Ghost World" was saintly). If I spend the whole movie wishing awful things will happen to the supposed protagonist I'm not going to enjoy myself.
   3258. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:22 PM (#4729629)
His sisters refused to appear in the film, IIRC, but when Robert Crumb is by far the most normal of 3 brothers ... wow. What a family.


I was describing the film to a friend who knew of Crumb's work, and I summarized it by saying that Crumb is clearly \"###### up" emotionally, but that he's absolutely acutely aware of it and has perfect perspicacity of his condition. He's also, by far, the most normal person in his family. I think that pretty much covers it.
   3259. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:24 PM (#4729636)
I haven't found much of interest in the coverage so far.

There isn't, because the left doesn't care for purely partisan reasons.

The Fort Sumter of the Cold Civil War was "Team Blue's" partisan defense of the Clinton perjuries and obstructions of justice. The reaction of the left to the IRS scandal is a natural and logical outgrowth.

In this regard, in tune with the US Constitution, I'm a process and procedures guy more than a content guy. The left has run roughshod over theretofore commonly-accepted processes and procedures. They did with the Robert Bork nomination and the Clinton perjuries. The various university speech codes are another example.
   3260. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:25 PM (#4729637)
So the 9/11 attacks didn't "truly damage" us, but our soldiers invading Iraq did. Because it's not "damaging" when terrorists kill a bunch of people and knock down two major buildings, but it is "damaging" when we do things that "create more terrorists."


9/11 did not damage our way of life, western superiority nearly as much as the botched invasion of Iraq did. Shall we compare cost?

Exhibit A. You and yours literally can't stomach a true descriptive word about a non-Western faction used by virtually the entire political mainstream.


I can stomach it just fine, I think it dumb though. They are fundamentalist muslims. Just like there are Fundamentalist Christians, Hindu, Jews, Atheists, and so on. The term annoys me, because it suggests Islam is at fault, when in reality it is fundamentalism that is to blame.

What exactly is your problem with calling it fundamentalist islam? Do you not think that is descriptive and true*? Or is it not pejorative enough for you?

* Note: You thinking it to be untrue is not exactly damning to it, mostly I have a morbid curiosity.
   3261. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:25 PM (#4729638)
"Bad Santa" on the other hand, was one of the lousiest crapfests I ever saw.


Good, bad or indifferent, I could tell ahead of time that it's not my type of movie. Sounds like I lucked out by skipping it.
   3262. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:27 PM (#4729640)
There isn't, because the left doesn't care for purely partisan reasons.

The Fort Sumter of the Cold Civil War was "Team Blue's" partisan defense of the Clinton perjuries and obstructions of justice. The reaction of the left to the IRS scandal is a natural and logical outgrowth.


Funny how pure partisan only ever applies to the left. If only the left could be as free of partisanship as the right. If only.
   3263. Shredder Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:28 PM (#4729646)
9/11 did not damage our way of life, western superiority nearly as much as the botched invasion of Iraq did. Shall we compare cost?
Well, the event itself didn't. Our reaction to it is much more up for debate.
   3264. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:28 PM (#4729648)
9/11 did not damage our way of life, western superiority nearly as much as the botched invasion of Iraq did. Shall we compare cost?

Sure, we can. The costs of 9/11 were far higher. It distorted our entire society.

Iraq didn't.
   3265. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:31 PM (#4729650)
What exactly is your problem with calling it fundamentalist islam? Do you not think that is descriptive and true*? Or is it not pejorative enough for you?

Because "fundamentalist Islam" doesn't imply any political component, and politics -- here totalitarian politics -- is what separates Islam from Islamism. And -ism is a common suffix used to denote political movements. And because Islamism is punchier and easier on the ears.

Etc., etc.

   3266. Canker Soriano Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:31 PM (#4729651)
Look, I have not been following the "OMG missing email" super closely (boring non-scandal is boring), but no kidding large organizations only keep email archived on servers so long. My understanding is it is kept 6 months at the IRS (which is fairly typical). However email does hang out on end users PCs, until those PCs crash and the hard disk is lost (which happens - happened to me last year in fact).

Our company is the same way. Emails are kept for 2 years, and then zapped with no copies retained. If you want to preserve an email longer than that, you need to PDF and file it someplace. They disappear from our personal accounts within 6 months, and stay on the servers 18 months after that. Beyond that time, it's gone.
   3267. SteveF Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:42 PM (#4729665)
Our company is the same way.

I assume your company isn't a government agency. The Federal Records Act requires preservation. The IRS's own policy requires any email that could constitute a federal record be printed as a hard copy and filed.

What is a Federal Record?

Records include all books, papers, maps, photographs, machine-readable materials, or other documentary materials, regardless of physical form or characteristics, made or received by an agency of the United States Government under Federal law or in connection with the transaction of public business and preserved or appropriate for preservation by that agency or its legitimate successor as evidence of the organization, functions, policies, decisions, procedures, operations, or other activities of the Government or because of the informational value of the data in them (44 U.S.C. 3301).
   3268. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:42 PM (#4729666)
Sure, we can. The costs of 9/11 were far higher. It distorted our entire society.

Iraq didn't.


Insomuch as 9/11 did in fact distort American society, the idiotic invasion of Iraq was a function of that distortion. Invading the wrong country because of reasons and 9/11, 9/11, 9/11 and stuff is pretty much the heart of ####### it up.
   3269. Ron J2 Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:46 PM (#4729674)
I'll also note that in Ontario there was a recent "lost" email brouhaha. In brief, government didn't want emails about a controversial (and extremely costly) cancellation of some new gas-fired power plants.

They ended up bringing in an outsider to wipe the hard drives of the various decision makers (they had to go outside the public service because the public servants said, "hell no") and simply lied about central backups.

And won reelection just last week, winning a majority of seats (same share of the popular vote, just a better split for them among the other parties)
   3270. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:46 PM (#4729678)
9/11 did not damage our way of life, western superiority nearly as much as the botched invasion of Iraq did.

Yikes. You're kidding, right?

***

Remember when Andy thought Romney's "self-deport" comment was the meanest thing ever? Well, here's Hillary Clinton yesterday:

Hillary Clinton said Tuesday that the American government should deport thousands of children who cross the border illegally into the United States.

Pressed by Christiane Amanpour during a televised CNN town hall event, the former secretary of state and possible 2016 presidential candidate bucked her political party by insisting that letting unaccompanied minors remain in the U.S. is the wrong policy to embrace.

"They should be sent back as soon as it can be determined who responsible adults in their families are," Clinton said, "because – there are concerns about whether all of them can be sent back, but I think all of them that can be should be reunited with their families."

Moments later, Clinton articulated a bottom-line policy that disagrees sharply with President Obama's observable priorities.

"We have to send a clear message: Just because your child gets across the border, that doesn't mean the child gets to stay," Clinton said.

Can't wait for Andy, et al., to explain how voluntary self-deportations are beyond the pale, but forcibly deporting children is great and sensible policy.
   3271. BDC Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:47 PM (#4729679)
I don't know that there's much Islamic component in groups like Al Qaeda, ISIS, Boko Haram. They are basically gangsters and bullies. They wrap themselves in the Koran as other gangsters and bullies down the centuries have wrapped themselves in the Bible or numerous flags. To the extent that the West identifies such groups with Islam, it's (a) a wickedly prejudicial dynamic and (b) may be one of those "terrorists have won" situations – by provoking elements of the West against Islam generally, the gangster/bullies keep the animus alive, and the animus keeps them in business.
   3272. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:49 PM (#4729687)
Insomuch as 9/11 did in fact distort American society, the idiotic invasion of Iraq was a function of that distortion. Invading the wrong country because of reasons and 9/11, 9/11, 9/11 and stuff is pretty much the heart of ####### it up.

Yes, a function of the distortion. Not the primary cause.

The primary cause was the 9/11 attack.
   3273. Ron J2 Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:49 PM (#4729690)
#3267 Any mention as to how long they have to be retained? My reading of what you've posted is that everything must be retained forever. Not the easiest thing in the world to manage.

   3274. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:53 PM (#4729694)
I don't know that there's much Islamic component in groups like Al Qaeda, ISIS, Boko Haram. They are basically gangsters and bullies. They wrap themselves in the Koran as other gangsters and bullies down the centuries have wrapped themselves in the Bible or numerous flags. To the extent that the West identifies such groups with Islam, it's (a) a wickedly prejudicial dynamic and (b) may be one of those "terrorists have won" situations – by provoking elements of the West against Islam generally, the gangster/bullies keep the animus alive, and the animus keeps them in business.

ISIS proclaimed that the "sons of Islam" were ready for the upcoming battle with America.

"Jihad," the primary descriptor of political struggle used by those groups, is straight out of Islam.

Shiria law, the law propagated by the Taliban, ISIS, and many other movements -- and favored by majorities of citizens in virtually every ME/N Af country -- is Islamic-based.

Etc., etc.

"Prejudice" is prejudging. This is judging.

Nor have the terrorists "won" if their atrocities provoke a reaction against them.

   3275. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:53 PM (#4729695)
I don't know that there's much Islamic component in groups like Al Qaeda, ISIS, Boko Haram. They are basically gangsters and bullies. They wrap themselves in the Koran as other gangsters and bullies down the centuries have wrapped themselves in the Bible or numerous flags. To the extent that the West identifies such groups with Islam, it's (a) a wickedly prejudicial dynamic and (b) may be one of those "terrorists have won" situations – by provoking elements of the West against Islam generally, the gangster/bullies keep the animus alive, and the animus keeps them in business.

LOL.
   3276. SteveF Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:54 PM (#4729698)
#3273 There's something called the General Records Schedule that gives a list of how long records must be kept. I'm skimming it now, but most of that stuff was pretty recent (less than 2 years) at the point congress asked for the records.
   3277. BDC Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:55 PM (#4729701)
Well, I think #s 3274 and 75 have made my point for me, sadly enough.
   3278. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:56 PM (#4729702)
Well, I think #s 3274 and 75 have made my point for me, sadly enough.

How? Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and Boko Haram don't have much of an Islamic component?

Huh?
   3279. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 18, 2014 at 03:59 PM (#4729708)
How? Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and Boko Haram don't have much of an Islamic component?

Huh?

Stop being so wickedly prejudicial.
   3280. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:02 PM (#4729716)
I don't know that there's much Islamic component in groups like Al Qaeda, ISIS, Boko Haram. They are basically gangsters and bullies. They wrap themselves in the Koran as other gangsters and bullies down the centuries have wrapped themselves in the Bible or numerous flags. To the extent that the West identifies such groups with Islam, it's (a) a wickedly prejudicial dynamic and (b) may be one of those "terrorists have won" situations – by provoking elements of the West against Islam generally, the gangster/bullies keep the animus alive, and the animus keeps them in business.


As if we needed further proof that you have been in a state of precipitous decline since 1979.

(Don't deny it. I mean, we're the same age!)
   3281. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:05 PM (#4729723)
If the point is that Islamism is a distortion or bastardization of Islam, stipulated -- just as Christianism is a distortion of Christianity.

But I'm not sure what that's supposed to prove.
   3282. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:06 PM (#4729725)
Sure, we can. The costs of 9/11 were far higher. It distorted our entire society.


Translation: "It made me scared. So scared I think we need to keep invading random middle eastern countries until I stop being scared. No matter how much it costs to invade them."
   3283. zenbitz Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:08 PM (#4729730)
I don't know how true @3271 is, but it fits my cognitive bias so I agree. Judging Islam by the actions of ISIS is like judging Catholicism for the molesting of children.

9/11 changed everything because we let it change everything.
   3284. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:08 PM (#4729731)
Translation: "It made me scared. So scared I think we need to keep invading random middle eastern countries until I stop being scared. No matter how much it costs to invade them."


I assume that's an invocation of the "Royal 'We'".
   3285. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:09 PM (#4729734)
If the point is that Islamism is a distortion or bastardization of Islam, stipulated -- just as Christianism is a distortion of Christianity.


Since 2005, I guess. Both are dumb words as you are using them. Fundamentalist gets the point across much better.

Christianism had various definitions over the years. It was originally defined as "the Christian religion" or "the Christian world",[1] with cognates in languages like Spanish (cristianismo) or French (christianisme) retaining this meaning. In recent years, Christianism (or Christianist) has also been used as a descriptive term of Christian political conservatives mostly in the United States, for the ideology of the Christian right, meant as a counterpoint to "Islamism".[2][3] Writing in 2005, the New York Times language columnist William Safire attributed the term (in its modern usage) to blogger Andrew Sullivan, who wrote on June 1, 2003:[2]

I have a new term for those on the fringes of the religious right who have used the Gospels to perpetuate their own aspirations for power, control and oppression: Christianists. They are as anathema to true Christians as the Islamists are to true Islam.

The bloggers Tristero and David Neiwert used the term shortly after.[4][5] Sullivan later expanded on his usage of the term in a Time magazine column.[6] Uses of the term can be found dating back to the seventeenth century, but these are unrelated to its modern meaning.[2]

Christianism has started to gain a foothold in the United Kingdom too, according to one commentator.[7]

This word does not operate strictly within the etymology of the suffix "-ism" which means "doctrine, theory, system of principles" (the other meanings are not applicable to religions) whereas the suffix "-ity" means just "state, quality or condition". In other Latin-based languages such as Castilian, Catalonian, Galician, French, Occitanian, Italian, etc., the suffix "-ity" (-idad, -té, -ità) means Christians as a group, their geographical distribution even their cultural identity, what in English is called Christendom.
   3286. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:12 PM (#4729739)
Translation: "It made me scared. So scared I think we need to keep invading random middle eastern countries until I stop being scared. No matter how much it costs to invade them."

In trying to be clever, you just refuted your own point.

9/11 brought grounded planes nationwide, heightened security measures, the Patriot Act, the TSA, and the Department of Homeland Security, and it remains the rationale for all sorts of government and non-government surveillance. How did the Iraq War "damage our way of life," other than by costing a lot of money?
   3287. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:15 PM (#4729745)
Fundamentalist gets the point across much better.

No it doesn't because it doesn't imply anything about politics. The essence of Islamism and Christianism is the application of religion to politics.

There is a "Christianism" and there is -- beyond a shadow of an iota of a doubt -- an "Islamism."

You're way off. Stop digging.
   3288. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:19 PM (#4729749)
9/11 brought grounded planes nationwide, heightened security measures, the TSA, and the Patriot Act, and it remains the rationale for all sorts of government and non-government surveillance. What did the Iraq War bring, other than a big bill?


First of all, as I said right up front, they (the fundamentalists) can not harm us unless we let them. The nonsense (which most of that is) that is because of 9/11 is us harming ourselves. What they did was fly planes into buildings and the ground in a one time attack that is likely not repeatable. It caused large amounts of damage and loss of life. It was terrible.

And then we proceeded (as a nation) to do a whole pile of dumb things (and a couple smart ones). Doing those dumb things is not on them, it is on us.

Iraq, cost far more money and lives* than did 9/11. It also managed to torpedo all the international good will 9/11 bought us and in general do huge amounts of damage to our national standing. It also damaged our ability to wage any upcoming necessary war.

AQ are terrorists. They did a bad thing and I am not minimizing it. But terrorists succeed when their terror infects their enemy and causes them to do stupid things.

* And yes I love how you minimize trillions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of lives as "a big bill". Nice.
   3289. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:19 PM (#4729750)
No it doesn't because it doesn't imply anything about politics. The essence of Islamism and Christianism is the application of religion to politics.


And fundamentalism is ... what? The application of fundamentals to baseball?
   3290. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:21 PM (#4729758)
There is a "Christianism" and there is -- beyond a shadow of an iota of a doubt -- an "Islamism."


Well since it is a made up word, sure it applies to what it was made up to describe. I just happen to think it is a dumb made up word.
   3291. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:28 PM (#4729769)
In trying to be clever, you just refuted your own point.


At least you did not deny your cowardice. Accepting you have a problem is the first step and I should have given you credit for that at least.
   3292. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:28 PM (#4729771)
First of all, as I said right up front, they (the fundamentalists) can not harm us unless we let them.

Incredibly dumb.

The nonsense (which most of that is) that is because of 9/11 is us harming ourselves. What they did was fly planes into buildings and the ground in a one time attack that is likely not repeatable. It caused large amounts of damage and loss of life. It was terrible.

Yes, that specific attack isn't likely repeatable, because of the changes to airline and airport security that were caused by 9/11. Which, again, underscores how wrong you were (and are).

Iraq, cost far more money and lives* than did 9/11. It also managed to torpedo all the international good will 9/11 bought us and in general do huge amounts of damage to our national standing. It also damaged our ability to wage any upcoming necessary war.

AQ are terrorists. They did a bad thing and I am not minimizing it. But terrorists succeed when their terror infects their enemy and causes them to do stupid things.

* And yes I love how you minimize trillions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of lives as "a big bill". Nice.

None of this comes close to bolstering your (absurd) claim that the Iraq War "damage[d] our way of life" more than 9/11.

At least you did not deny your cowardice. Accepting you have a problem is the first step and I should have given you credit for that at least.

???

"Cowardice"? What the hell are you talking about?
   3293. The Good Face Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:30 PM (#4729774)
I don't know that there's much Islamic component in groups like Al Qaeda, ISIS, Boko Haram. They are basically gangsters and bullies. They wrap themselves in the Koran as other gangsters and bullies down the centuries have wrapped themselves in the Bible or numerous flags. To the extent that the West identifies such groups with Islam, it's (a) a wickedly prejudicial dynamic and (b) may be one of those "terrorists have won" situations – by provoking elements of the West against Islam generally, the gangster/bullies keep the animus alive, and the animus keeps them in business.


This is essentially the same argument as, and every bit as wrong as, SBB's No True Scotsman Fallacy regarding Islam and compatibility with western civilization or democracy.
   3294. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:34 PM (#4729781)
Yes, that specific attack isn't likely repeatable, because of the post-9/11 changes.


There is no post-9/11 policy change that has really made the type of hijack and crash attack more unlikely than it was by noon on 9/11/2001. At that point every American flyer had changed their mindset in the air from "if we get hijacked, sit quietly until they land and ransom us" to "if we get hijacked, kill them before they can crash the plane into a building." That is the only reason 9/11 style attacks are fantastically unlikely going forward. All of the other is just security kabuki.
   3295. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:35 PM (#4729784)
Yes, that specific attack isn't likely repeatable, because of the changes to airline and airport security that were caused by 9/11. Which, again, underscores how wrong you were (and are).


Man you are dumb. It is not repeatable for exactly the same reason that 1/4 of the attacks failed that very day. Before then the SOP when hijacked was to let the hijackers do what they wanted. Now the SOP is to not let them take the plane anywhere. Yes there have been some minor improvements in airplane safety (strengthened cockpit doors and such), described right there in my post as "some things right", most of that stuff is a giant waste though.

EDIT: Coke to Rickey!

"Cowardice"? What the hell are you talking about?


Translation: "It made me scared. So scared I think we need to keep invading random middle eastern countries until I stop being scared. No matter how much it costs to invade them."


You never denied fear is your motivation for the invasions, perhaps even you are not that delusional. Invading Iraq because of 9/11 fear (or rather cheering while other Americans do it) is cowardice (and stupid). Pure and simple.
   3296. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:36 PM (#4729786)
This is essentially the same argument as, and every bit as wrong as, SBB's No True Scotsman Fallacy regarding Islam and compatibility with western civilization or democracy.


True. Of course, give SBB a twinge of an opening and his complaint about "Islamism" morphs into "Islam." Suddenly ISIS becomes the Iranian Republic, which then becomes Indonesia and Morocco.
   3297. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:37 PM (#4729788)
This is essentially the same argument as, and every bit as wrong as, SBB's No True Scotsman Fallacy regarding Islam and compatibility with western civilization or democracy.


Those groups are clearly Islamic. They are also fundamentalist nutbar barbarians. I think the later more significant, but yeah I agree they are Islamic.

EDIT: Clearly Rickey is just a faster keyboard warrior than I am. Boo!
   3298. BDC Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:41 PM (#4729794)
I still don't know. I think that focusing on the "Islamic" nature of such extremists is like pointing to neo-Nazi skinheads as representative of contemporary Germany, or the John Birch Society as the epitome of the 1950s United States. To me, gangsters have a huge amount more in common cross-culturally than they have traits specific to the ostensible ideologies they wave around, that's all.
   3299. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:42 PM (#4729799)
And fundamentalism is ... what? The application of fundamentals to baseball?

Believers in and practitioners of the literal precepts of the Bible and the Koran.

That rigid belief has nothing to do per se with politics.
   3300. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:43 PM (#4729801)
I agree with your basic point BDC, but it is far too subtle for ... um ... certain posters. But they are Islamic, but as you say it is not really the primary attribute that is causing problems.
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