Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Monday, June 02, 2014

OTP - June 2014: Iraq war costs U.S. more than $2 trillion: study

NEW YORK (Reuters) - The U.S. war in Iraq has cost $1.7 trillion with an additional $490 billion in benefits owed to war veterans, expenses that could grow to more than $6 trillion over the next four decades counting interest, a study released on Thursday said.

The war has killed at least 134,000 Iraqi civilians and may have contributed to the deaths of as many as four times that number, according to the Costs of War Project by the Watson Institute for International Studies at Brown University.

When security forces, insurgents, journalists and humanitarian workers were included, the war’s death toll rose to an estimated 176,000 to 189,000, the study said.

Bitter Mouse Posted: June 02, 2014 at 07:48 AM | 4613 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: otp, politics, stupid ideas

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 34 of 47 pages ‹ First  < 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 >  Last ›
   3301. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:45 PM (#4729804)
Believers in and practitioners of the literal precepts of the Bible and the Koran.


SBB, you do realize that the Koran has a bunch to say about correct political organization, right? Fundamental Islam has a large political slant to it, because the Koran is more overtly political as a book than the Bible (for example) is.
   3302. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:48 PM (#4729813)
True. Of course, give SBB a twinge of an opening and his complaint about "Islamism" morphs into "Islam." Suddenly ISIS becomes the Iranian Republic, which then becomes Indonesia and Morocco.

I've never suggested Islam isn't compatible with western civilization or democracy. There are millions of Muslims who are full-fledged adherents to and members of Western civilization.

Islamism isn't compatible with western civilization or democracy and, as noted, has declared civilizational war on western civilization.
   3303. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:49 PM (#4729816)
There is no post-9/11 policy change that has really made the type of hijack and crash attack more unlikely than it was by noon on 9/11/2001. At that point every American flyer had changed their mindset in the air from "if we get hijacked, sit quietly until they land and ransom us" to "if we get hijacked, kill them before they can crash the plane into a building." That is the only reason 9/11 style attacks are fantastically unlikely going forward. All of the other is just security kabuki.

Total nonsense. The massive increases in security — particularly cockpit security but also airport security — are what make hijackings less likely, not any (alleged) shift in onboard mentality.

***
Man you are dumb. It is not repeatable for exactly the same reason that 1/4 of the attacks failed that very day. Before then the SOP when hijacked was to let the hijackers do what they wanted. Now the SOP is to not let them take the plane anywhere. Yes there have been some minor improvements in airplane safety (strengthened cockpit doors and such), described right there in my post as "some things right", most of that stuff is a giant waste though.

EDIT: Coke to Rickey!

LOL. See above.

Even taking you at your (silly) word, even minor changes in airport security would be more "damage [to] our way of life" than anything caused by the Iraq War. I'm still waiting for a single example of how the Iraq War "damage[d] our way of life."

You never denied fear is your motivation for the invasions, perhaps even you are not that delusional. Invading Iraq because of 9/11 fear (or rather cheering while other Americans do it) is cowardice (and stupid). Pure and simple.

Huh? I only supported the Iraq War to the extent it was the first stop on a Turn the Middle East into a Parking Lot Tour, which I had supported since the 1980s (i.e., long before 9/11). I have no idea where you came up with this "fear" angle. I've never said or even hinted at such a thing.
   3304. Publius Publicola Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:51 PM (#4729818)
FWIW, there's a violent element embedded in the Koran that isn't there in the bible or the sacred texts of the other major religions. First, Islam was born by violence when Mohammed defeated an attacking force sent for him at Medina. They also raided caravans for money. From there, he went from town to town and village to village, forcing his religion on his foes by warfare. When he died, there was no succession plan, and divisions began to appear over who should be the next in line. Ali, Mohammed's cousin and son-in-law, had his adherents after the third caliph (Othman) was assassinated (one of Mohammed's wives was involved in the intrigues against Othman). It was at this point where the Shiia broke with the Sunni. Ali's son (Husayn) by Fatimah, Mohammed's daughter, was beheaded at the battle of Karbala by followers of Muawiyah, the second Caliph of the Umayyad dynasty,f or opposing him. The head was brought to Muawiyah while he was meeting with a group of Byzantine diplomats and they were horrified, commenting that they couldn't imagine a group of Christians beheading the grandson of Jesus.

So it's this historic backdrop- proselitization by warfare, criminal enterprise to further religious goals, assasination as an acceptable way to settle differences- that helps to explain the seemingly inexplicable and ruthless behavior we are witnessing today.
   3305. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:52 PM (#4729822)
I still don't know. I think that focusing on the "Islamic" nature of such extremists is like pointing to neo-Nazi skinheads as representative of contemporary Germany, or the John Birch Society as the epitome of the 1950s United States. To me, gangsters have a huge amount more in common cross-culturally than they have traits specific to the ostensible ideologies they wave around, that's all.

You don't know, all right. Comparing ISIS and al Qaeda to neo-Nazi skinheads and the John Birch Society is beyond laughable.
   3306. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:55 PM (#4729827)
I'm still waiting for a single example of how the Iraq War "damage[d] our way of life."


Trillions of dollars, thousands of American casualties and huge loss of international standing doesn't count, but longer lines at the airport does in your world? Really?

So ACA was the end of the world as are higher tax rates and any sort of movement on regulating greenhouse gasses. But all that costs the US people far far less than the Iraq war has and will. But they are damaging and Iraq is no big deal.
   3307. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:56 PM (#4729829)
You don't know, all right. Comparing ISIS and al Qaeda to neo-Nazi skinheads and the John Birch Society is beyond laughable.


Because right wing "christian" groups have done more damage to the US than ISIS ever will?
   3308. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 18, 2014 at 04:58 PM (#4729835)
Trillions of dollars, thousands of American casualties and huge loss of international standing doesn't count, but longer lines at the airport does in your world? Really?

I guess we can add "way of life" to the very long list of words and phrases you either don't understand or have redefined.

Being subjected to intrusive searches at the airport and widespread governmental surveillance are examples of things that impact my way of life. The fact that some guy in Afghanistan has a lower opinion of the U.S. doesn't impact my way of life. Glad I could clear that up for you.

***
Because right wing "christian" groups have done more damage to the US than ISIS ever will?

???

Where do you come up with this stuff?

Have "right-wing 'christian' groups" done more damage to the U.S. than al Qaeda?
   3309. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:02 PM (#4729839)
Because right wing "christian" groups have done more damage to the US than ISIS ever will?

Where do you come up with this stuff?

Is it really surprising that a committed and ultra-partisan culture warrior would believe such claptrap? The very essence of the 21st century ultra-partisan culture warrior is abject delusion and utter fantasy about their domestic "enemy."
   3310. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:11 PM (#4729849)
Is it really surprising that a committed and ultra-partisan culture warrior would believe such claptrap? The very essence of the 21st century ultra-partisan culture warrior is abject delusion and utter fantasy about their domestic "enemy."

Sadly, no. I mostly only read Bitter Mouse's comments for the laughs, but he seems to have gone full nutjob lately. "Abject delusion," indeed.
   3311. Group Captain Mandrake Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:13 PM (#4729852)
Being subjected to intrusive searches at the airport and widespread governmental surveillance are examples of things that impact my way of life. The fact that some guy in Afghanistan has a lower opinion of the U.S. doesn't impact my way of life. Glad I could clear that up for you.


How does ACA affect your way of life then? Besides the cost I mean. because clearly you don't care about costs, seeing as how Iraq cost ( or eventually will cost) every American man, woman, and child, $20,000 on average. That's $80,000 for a family of 4. For no benefit whatsoever. Compared to ACA, which will cost that family a fraction of that, for a real, tangible benefit.

I don't go as far as same and Mouse in pooh-poohing the hijack threat. true, it is very, very unlikely anyone will takeover an airliner again, and that has little to nothing to do with increased airport security. But as Richard Reid and others showed post-911, there's more than one way to make a big splash. Nipping those situations in the bud is a good thing and has little to do with increased passenger awareness* and beefed up cockpit doors.

However, I do agree with Sam about the "security kabuki." It's is a ridiculous waste of time for little to no benefit. As long as a 70 year old, or a 30 year old traveling with a child is not required to remove his shoes, no one should be.

*True, Reid was ratted out by his fellow passenger. But he was an incompetent boob. A slightly less idiotic terrorist would have been successful.
   3312. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:19 PM (#4729856)
I mostly only read Bitter Mouse's comments for the laughs, but he seems to have gone full nutjob lately. "Abject delusion," indeed.

It was inevitable, and he's been getting creakier and shriller in the last few days.

But there it is ... the true enemy of the United States isn't Islamism, it's the domestic right. That's what they believe, and we've seen it here. It's been said repeatedly, in many threads on a wide range of topics, but they don't really believe the domestic right has a legitimate place in American politics. That's what's driving the absurd 21st century culture wars.

Now, it's true that the domestic right has overreacted to the correct impression it has that the domestic left doesn't believe they're legitimate, which has amplified the absurd 21st century culture wars, so a pox on both their houses, but the base, fundamental cause of the culture wars (*) is the left's disbelief in the right's legitimacy.

(*) As well as hoped-for process-distorting paths to culture war victory such as university speech codes.
   3313. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:19 PM (#4729857)
How does ACA affect your way of life then? Besides the cost I mean. because clearly you don't care about costs, seeing as how Iraq cost ( or eventually will cost) every American man, woman, and child, $20,000 on average. That's $80,000 for a family of 4. For no benefit whatsoever. Compared to ACA, which will cost that family a fraction of that, for a real, tangible benefit.

When did I claim the ACA damaged my way of life?
   3314. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:25 PM (#4729865)
But there it is ... the true enemy of the United States isn't Islamism, it's the domestic right.

It would be bad enough if this was limited to the Bitter Mice of the internet, but Eric Holder, et al., seems to believe the same thing. It's nuts.
   3315. bunyon Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:29 PM (#4729870)
Security at airports is a joke. It's inconvenience that could be easily bypassed by the technically competent. Hell, I've accidentally carried more dangerous weapons than those used in 9/11 onto planes since.

It's impossible to quantify the extent to which increased security, difficulty in finding guys willing to die who can also get into the US or Europe and the change in mindset amongst passengers* has kept a repeat of 9/11 from happening. The threat was always very small. Security, as bad as it is, probably lowers the probability a little. The change in mindset will prevent the plane being used as a missle but doesn't affect the attmept or destruction of the plane. Basically, it was a hail mary and those don't work very often.

* The idea that people haven't changed their attitudes in a hijack situation is a joke also. Of course they have. No one is going to surrender during a hijack attempt ever again. Once you ensure death, people get awfully brave.
   3316. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:31 PM (#4729873)
But there it is ... the true enemy of the United States isn't Islamism, it's the domestic right. That's what they believe, and we've seen it here. It's been said repeatedly, in many threads on a wide range of topics, but they don't really believe the domestic right has a legitimate place in American politics. That's what's driving the absurd 21st century culture wars.

It's why I haven't been able to vote for Democrats for a few years, despite historically voting for more Democrats than Republicans. Progressive extremists, people like Sam or Bitter Mouse or Captain Kevin, have taken over the left side of the Democratic party and finally with some pull on politics, have showed themselves to be the Strasserists that some always expected them to be. Not me - I thought the worry about how progressives would act with more political power were way overblown - I never truly expected progressives to act the way they have.
   3317. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:33 PM (#4729878)
Kevin has gone from being a lefty on most social issues, to being to the right of neocons wrt Islam... maybe he's not actually "Kevin" but he's Christopher Hitchens posing from beyond...
   3318. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:35 PM (#4729880)
Kevin has gone from being a lefty on most social issues, to being to the right of neocons wrt Islam... maybe he's not actually "Kevin" but he's Christopher Hitchens posing from beyond...

Seems unlikely. I liked reading Hitchens. Disagreed him on everything (he went to the far right on all the issues I'm fairly leftist on), but he was a fascinating writer.

Now I do enjoy everything I read by Kevin or Sam these days. [ Ignored Comment ]. Using the ignore list was a wonderful breath of fresh air, kind of felt like how I imagined people 100 years ago felt when getting their first flush toilet.
   3319. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:35 PM (#4729881)
But there it is ... the true enemy of the United States isn't Islamism, it's the domestic right.


Western liberal idealism has many enemies. Fundamentalist militant Islamists. Fundamentalist militant Christianists. Resurgent Russian neo-fascism. Unrepentant American imperialist fascism. There are many enemies of the good.
   3320. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:37 PM (#4729883)
Progressive extremists, people like Sam or Bitter Mouse or Captain Kevin


It being the case that you claim loudly to have me killfiled, it's a wonder you know anything at all about my arguments. (Not that you ever did when you were trying to read them, I guess.) You used to be less silly.

Admittedly, Ima have to google up what the #### a "Strasserist" is, so kudos on the high end cred grab there.
   3321. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:38 PM (#4729885)

re: the mass gang up on BM here, I thought BBTF was a lefty high-fiving circle jerk...
   3322. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:39 PM (#4729886)
It's impossible to quantify the extent to which increased security, difficulty in finding guys willing to die who can also get into the US or Europe and the change in mindset amongst passengers* has kept a repeat of 9/11 from happening. The threat was always very small. Security, as bad as it is, probably lowers the probability a little. The change in mindset will prevent the plane being used as a missle but doesn't affect the attmept or destruction of the plane. Basically, it was a hail mary and those don't work very often.

Hail Marys don't have a 75 percent completion rate.

* The idea that people haven't changed their attitudes in a hijack situation is a joke also. Of course they have. No one is going to surrender during a hijack attempt ever again. Once you ensure death, people get awfully brave.

No one ever surrendered before 9/11 if they knew the plane would be flown into a building. And this alleged change in onboard mentality hasn't deterred various post-9/11 attempts at onboard terrorist activity, whether it was the attempted shoe bomber in 2001 or the attempted shoe bomber in 2009.

***
re: the mass gang up on BM here, I thought BBTF was a lefty high-fiving circle jerk...

Two people constitutes a "mass gang up"? I guess you're using Mefisto's new definition of "mass" from last week's discussion of mass shootings.
   3323. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:39 PM (#4729888)
Holy ####. Dan done gone and secret-Godwined up the thread. You're over the ####### rainbow, Chaucer.
   3324. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:41 PM (#4729890)
And this alleged change in onboard mentality hasn't deterred various post-9/11 attempts at onboard terrorist activity, whether it was the attempted shoe bomber in 2001 or the attempted shoe bomber in 2009.


Neither of which was an attempted hijacking, because hijackings simply will not work any more. (The funny part is that this is a classic example of decentralized organization of the people, with absolutely no need for government interference, that "conservatives" claim they would support.)
   3325. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:43 PM (#4729891)
Holy ####. Dan done gone and secret-Godwined up the thread. You're over the ####### rainbow, Chaucer.


Maybe he actually meant to invoke Harold Stassen?
   3326. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:45 PM (#4729892)
Now I do enjoy everything I read by Kevin or Sam these days. [ Ignored Comment ]. Using the ignore list was a wonderful breath of fresh air,


Running away like a little girl has its advantages I suppose.
   3327. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:46 PM (#4729894)
Neither of which was an attempted hijacking, because hijackings simply will not work any more. (The funny part is that this is a classic example of decentralized organization of the people, with absolutely no need for government interference, that "conservatives" claim they would support.)

Right, the terrorists' fear of the fat guy in 7C is more of a deterrent than the bank-vault-type doors that were installed, after 9/11, to make airline cockpits all but impenetrable from the cabin.
   3328. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:46 PM (#4729895)
Maybe he actually meant to invoke Harold Stassen?


I doubt it. His scatter pattern over the last few years indicates that he probably was intending to call us Nazis. Because Dan has apparently been mainline stupid-juice or something.
   3329. The Good Face Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:47 PM (#4729896)
Progressive extremists, people like Sam or Bitter Mouse or Captain Kevin, have taken over the left side of the Democratic party and finally with some pull on politics, have showed themselves to be the Strasserists that some always expected them to be. Not me - I thought the worry about how progressives would act with more political power were way overblown - I never truly expected progressives to act the way they have.


While I suppose it's better to realize it late than never, what, in the recent history of the American left, could have possibly led you to believe they were anything else?
   3330. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:47 PM (#4729899)
Right, the terrorists' fear of the fat guy in 7C are more of a deterrent than the bank-vault-type doors that were installed, after 9/11, to make airline cockpits all but impenetrable from the cabin.


I realize you don't actually read the threads, just #### into the ether and hope it hits a fan, but reenforcing the doors was one of the few "good things" that has already been stipulated, Cheez-it.
   3331. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:48 PM (#4729900)
Unrepentant American imperialist fascism.

Wow, two "bad words" in one clause. You sure you didn't want to go with "Unrepentant American imperialist fascist totalitarianism"??
   3332. bunyon Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:48 PM (#4729901)
As Sam says, no one has tried to capture a flyable aircraft since 9/11. Everyone who had done it prior to that ordered it flown by the pilots, who they generally didn't kill while in the air, to another location for some larger purpose. Your best bet was to stay quiet and maybe make nice small talk to your captors.

When I say it was a Hail Mary, I mean that it was an attack that could basically work once. Given that eve, security did, in fact, see that the guys had boxcutters. Just didn't think to strip them of them. That was the only change necessary.

As to blowing up planes, I'm not sure why that is more terrifying than blowing up movie theaters. Will you be okay with bodyscanners outside the Wyndsong if, and when, that happens?
   3333. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:49 PM (#4729903)
Holy ####. Dan done gone and secret-Godwined up the thread. You're over the ####### rainbow, Chaucer.


I missed the Strasser reference... Strasser of course was the organizational genius who created the parallel shadow government (gauleiter) system that was essential to Hitler's rise to and hold on power... had he lived he may have played Stalin to Hitler's Lenin... Of course Hitler forced him out and bumped him off before that came to pass.

That said, if Dan posted more he'd have earned a place on the ignore list with that one.

Oh who am I kidding, I don't even put Joey B on ignore.
   3334. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:51 PM (#4729905)
SBB, you do realize that the Koran has a bunch to say about correct political organization, right? Fundamental Islam has a large political slant to it, because the Koran is more overtly political as a book than the Bible (for example) is.

This is true, and has some similarities to Judaism and the Torah (as well as many differences).

I'm not a fan of terms like "Islamism", particularly when they are personified (i.e. "Islamism has declared civilizational war on the United States"), because they are particularly squishy. Islam is not a monolithic block; it has many different countries, factions and leaders with different motivations who historically don't get along with each other.

And who actually "declared war" on us? And how do we win / how does it end?

We have a pretty good history of ####### things up by backing the wrong guys in what are essentially internal conflicts, or removing one leader without being prepared for who was going to fill the subsequent void. We see every conflict there as being about us, and we feel the need to get involved, but in doing so we have arguably made things worse and made many enemies (so that now things sometimes are actually about us). And we never seem to learn from our mistakes.
   3335. SteveF Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:53 PM (#4729909)
As to blowing up planes, I'm not sure why that is more terrifying than blowing up movie theaters.

I was thinking about this exact point. In favor of movie theaters is the terror aspect. More people go to the movies more often than fly on planes. The death toll is likelier to be much higher on a plane since it's easier to crash the plane than it would be to kill the same number of people in a movie theater with an explosion.
   3336. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:54 PM (#4729911)
Crashed HD gate looks to be a lot of whiz and little bang.
   3337. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:54 PM (#4729912)
I guess I need to shave off that Hitler 'stach. Dan's on to us.
   3338. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:54 PM (#4729913)
Wow, two "bad words" in one clause.


Both of which you adamantly embrace. You've argued for American imperialist fascism for page after page now.
   3339. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:55 PM (#4729914)
That's true -- Islamism comes in both Shia and Sunni forms.

One option is to completely bail out and just let them all slaughter each other, but I fail to see how that's any more humanist or moral than the occupy-and-civilize option. I've never understood the leftist fetish for self-determination when self-determination leads directly to slaughter and genocide -- as it so often has.
   3340. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:55 PM (#4729915)
I doubt it. His scatter pattern over the last few years indicates that he probably was intending to call us Nazis.


I find the urge among the wing nuts to refer to liberals as Nazis to be quite fascinating... They can't actually identify anything about American liberals that would remotely justify such an accusation- it seems mostly just to be an extreme manifestation of the right's urge to parrot lefty talking points and throw them back at the lefties.

Dan OTOH really does seem to be losing it the last year or two and has gotten really bitter about it, I mean SBB and GF and few others really seem to enjoy posting, Dan seems driven by anger and seems to lack any sense of doing this for fun.

   3341. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:56 PM (#4729918)
Both of which you adamantly embrace. You've argued for American imperialist fascism for page after page now.

There's nothing remotely "fascist" about anything I've "embraced." You're just picking out what you think are really "bad words" and slathering them on, like barbecue sauce on linguine.

   3342. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: June 18, 2014 at 05:58 PM (#4729920)
One option is to completely bail out and just let them all slaughter each other, but I fail to see how that's any more humanist or moral than the occupy-and-civilize option.


I don't see "occupy-and-civilize" as an option that exists in the real world, completely bailing out and letting them slaughter each other (or not) is an option that exists in the real world.

Of course the default option is going to continue to muddle along, business as usual, reacting when a crisis erupts etc etc.
   3343. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 06:00 PM (#4729922)
Dan OTOH really does seem to be losing it the last year or two and has gotten really bitter about it, I mean SBB and GF and few others really seem to enjoy posting, Dan seems driven by anger and seems to lack any sense of doing this for fun.


Yeah. Dan used to be one of the funniest guys on the 'net. Now he couldn't find his sense of humor if I beat him bloody with it wrapped around a tube sock full of soap.
   3344. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 18, 2014 at 06:02 PM (#4729927)
I realize you don't actually read the threads, just #### into the ether and hope it hits a fan, but reenforcing the doors was one of the few "good things" that has already been stipulated, Cheez-it.

Then what's your point? Even if we stipulate that the TSA is mostly security theater, you're not arguing that we should ignore the threats faced by potential shoe bombers, etc., are you?

***
When I say it was a Hail Mary, I mean that it was an attack that could basically work once. Given that eve, security did, in fact, see that the guys had boxcutters. Just didn't think to strip them of them. That was the only change necessary.

It only worked once because of the changes immediately implemented after 9/11. If the cockpits weren't more heavily secured and airport security didn't crack down on box cutters and the like being brought aboard planes, the terrorists assuredly would have been right back in action. What was to stop them from buying up all the tickets on a flight, or bringing a crew of 12 instead of four?

As to blowing up planes, I'm not sure why that is more terrifying than blowing up movie theaters. Will you be okay with bodyscanners outside the Wyndsong if, and when, that happens?

If theaters start getting blown up, or we have credible evidence that such plotting is underway, then yes. Of course.
   3345. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 06:03 PM (#4729928)
I don't see "occupy-and-civilize" as an option that exists in the real world


But you don't understand. If we don't commit to open-ended imperialist occupation of, well, the entire globe, and pay for it with the money Bear shits out of his ass every night, Bear won't feel all super duper morally superior to everyone. The bottom line is that Bear is as fundamentalist and intent on shaping the world to fit his personal religious beliefs as any "Islamist" on the planet. The primary difference is that he wants to send other people kids to die overseas rather than take up arms himself.
   3346. zenbitz Posted: June 18, 2014 at 06:04 PM (#4729929)
I find it really unfathomable that the IRS lost a bunch of email, unless...

Prior to the eruption of the IRS controversy last spring, the IRS had a policy of backing up the data on its email server (which runs Microsoft Outlook)


Oh. Never mind, then.
   3347. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 06:05 PM (#4729931)
If theaters start getting blown up, or we have credible evidence that such plotting is underway, then yes. Of course.


But no regulations on owning or carrying arms. Massive government interference with day to day life and the creation of a paranoid national security state? SURE! Limiting magazine size for pseudo-assault rifles? TYRANNY!!
   3348. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: June 18, 2014 at 06:07 PM (#4729935)
Crashed HD gate looks to be a lot of whiz and little bang.


Prior to the eruption of the IRS controversy last spring, the IRS had a policy of backing up the data on its email server (which runs Microsoft Outlook)


Well I'm convinced :-)

Seriously:
1: It looks like they can collect most of the emails, it's just the ones that were stored on her hard drive in 2011 that are missing (and most of those can be recovered from the sender or recipient's computers). BTW I once lost 3 years worth of old emails on my hard drive because of an Outlook crash, so I'm not fond of that software platform. (Not that any wingnuts will, even if you could convince them that this "could" happen they will insist that it didn't actually happen, but the conspirators were merely smart enough to claim a feasible email problem)

2: It looks like the IRS has really godawful policies/abilities/procedures wrt retention of electronic documents
   3349. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 06:08 PM (#4729938)
Even if we stipulate that the TSA is mostly security theater, you're not arguing that we should ignore the threats faced by potential shoe bombers, etc., are you?


I think the reinforced doors are one of the very few actionable, worthwhile things done in the wake of 9/11. I think the kabuki theater of body scans every 20 feet, "only tiny shampoo bottles", etc is utterly pointless and a massive waste of time and funds. I think the world would be 99.9% as safe tomorrow if we rolled back TSA and airport security to 9/10/2001 processes tonight. 9/11 isn't going to happen again, because 1) we reinforced the doors, and 2) the next person that tries to hijack an American plane is going to die in the process. The absolute worst a terrorist can do on a plane these days is blow it up or make it crash. That's not good, but it's not 9/11 either. And it's a risk rational citizens live with.
   3350. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 18, 2014 at 06:09 PM (#4729939)
I don't even put Joey B on ignore


Is that even ... you know, legal?
   3351. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 18, 2014 at 06:10 PM (#4729940)

Disregarding the non sequitur in #3347, if Sam doesn't like the Second Amendment, he should work to amend or repeal it.
   3352. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 06:10 PM (#4729941)
2: It looks like the IRS has really godawful policies/abilities/procedures wrt retention of electronic document


This goes back to the previous point where all government agencies are inept bureaucracies run by sycophantic idiots, until it's convenient to the preferred political narrative for them to become James Bond villains.
   3353. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 06:15 PM (#4729947)
This should go over well with the conspiracy nuts on the right:

In the period before the attack, Mr. Abu Khattala was living in el-Leithi, known for its high concentration of militant extremists. He made his living as a building contractor in blue Dickies coveralls. But he was still active with a small, part-time militia, which at certain times over the last two years controlled at least one checkpoint on a highway near Benghazi.

On the day of the attack, Islamists in Cairo had staged a demonstration outside the United States Embassy there to protest an American-made online video mocking Islam, and the protest culminated in a breach of the embassy’s walls — images that flashed through news coverage around the Arab world.

As the attack in Benghazi was unfolding a few hours later, Mr. Abu Khattala told fellow Islamist fighters and others that the assault was retaliation for the same insulting video, according to people who heard him.


NY Times.

I wonder if Darryl Issa will call him to a committee hearing.
   3354. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 06:18 PM (#4729949)
Disregarding the non sequitur in #3347, if Sam doesn't like the Second Amendment, he should work to amend or repeal it.


I have not suggested repealing or ignoring the 2nd. I've simply pointed out time and again that we already regulate the bearing of arms in America, and a slight modification of those regulations to limit large capacity magazines would no more violate the 2nd than does the regulations limiting the availability of rocket launchers.
   3355. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: June 18, 2014 at 06:18 PM (#4729950)
I don't see "occupy-and-civilize" as an option that exists in the real world


But you don't understand. If we don't commit to open-ended imperialist occupation of, well, the entire globe, and pay for it with the money Bear shits out of his ass every night, Bear won't feel all super duper morally superior to everyone. The bottom line is that Bear is as fundamentalist and intent on shaping the world to fit his personal religious beliefs as any "Islamist" on the planet. The primary difference is that he wants to send other people kids to die overseas rather than take up arms himself.

By coincidence, I just finished watching a 1955 movie called Jump Into Hell, an American movie that "re-enacts" the Battle of Dien Bien Phu from a POV which casts the French as freedom loving friends of the Indochinese people. It reminded me of the fact that we barely resisted sending troops over there in support of the French, a course which I'm sure some of our "civilizers" here would have approved.
   3356. bunyon Posted: June 18, 2014 at 06:19 PM (#4729952)
I think the reinforced doors are one of the very few actionable, worthwhile things done in the wake of 9/11.

Indeed. As to bottles of water and shampoo; as a famous chemist once said to me, "Good lord, do you know what I could do with a stick of deodorant?"

FWIW, I know a lot of very fine chemists who are Muslim and could bring down a plane with what looks like a stick of deodorant. They don't because they're good people. But the terrorists have access to that sort of chemistry. Blowing up a plane would be fairly easy given the right people (smart, willing to die, and able to enter the country).

Limiting bottles of water was a business decision. Securing the door was great and, basically, the only thing necessary in response to 9/11. But that wouldn't create a huge government agency with lots of money and power. Things that, you know, the folks on the right usually are on the right side of (IMHO, of course). Homeland Security is what you think ACA is.
   3357. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: June 18, 2014 at 06:28 PM (#4729957)
Dan OTOH really does seem to be losing it the last year or two and has gotten really bitter about it

No, I just no longer have to pretend to get along with the 3 or 4 people who post on these threads that are truly odious. Now, I'm free to tell them exactly what I think of them as people. It sure as #### is enjoyable!
   3358. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 18, 2014 at 06:29 PM (#4729958)
I have not suggested repealing or ignoring the 2nd. I've simply pointed out time and again that we already regulate the bearing of arms in America, and a slight modification of those regulations to limit large capacity magazines would no more violate the 2nd than does the regulations limiting the availability of rocket launchers.

And I haven't suggested that people have a right to take machine guns into movie theaters, which is why your #3347 was little more than your usual poo-flinging.

Anyway, it's good to see that Andy has awakened from his fainting couch after the revelations in #3270. Hope Hillary Clinton's vile nativist child-hating racism didn't hit you too hard, Andy.
   3359. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: June 18, 2014 at 06:35 PM (#4729966)
While I suppose it's better to realize it late than never, what, in the recent history of the American left, could have possibly led you to believe they were anything else?

I did believe some of the Obama Kool-Aid. I figured we'd get liberal government, but at least adult, competent, government with at least some concern for civil liberties or justice. I was wrong. You and Joey were right. Now, Joey's a ####### #######, but he was in fact correct.
   3360. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 06:36 PM (#4729968)
No, I just no longer have to pretend to get along with the 3 or 4 people who post on these threads that are truly odious.


Der heil.
   3361. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: June 18, 2014 at 06:38 PM (#4729969)
1: It looks like they can collect most of the emails, it's just the ones that were stored on her hard drive in 2011 that are missing (and most of those can be recovered from the sender or recipient's computers). BTW I once lost 3 years worth of old emails on my hard drive because of an Outlook crash, so I'm not fond of that software platform. (Not that any wingnuts will, even if you could convince them that this "could" happen they will insist that it didn't actually happen, but the conspirators were merely smart enough to claim a feasible email problem)

And the other key members of the IRS that the Washington Post reported also had convenient hard drive crashes over the same time frame that left all their email unrecoverable too?
   3362. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 18, 2014 at 06:40 PM (#4729973)
Where do you come up with this stuff?

Have "right-wing 'christian' groups" done more damage to the U.S. than al Qaeda?


You are such an idiot. I said ISIS you moron.
Because right wing "christian" groups have done more damage to the US than ISIS ever will?


And it is true. Right wing domestic terrorist "Christian" groups have and will do more harm than ISIS to the US. Which is why this is complete non sequitur, because I said nothing like:
But there it is ... the true enemy of the United States isn't Islamism, it's the domestic right.


To suggest I did is willfully stupid. Fundamentalist Islam is a danger to the US. As are most Fundamentalist ideologies, when they are so goofy that they want to roll back basic civilization. I have never suggested otherwise. They are not a threat worth invading Iraq and spending trillions of dollars on, but they are still a threat to be taken seriously. You and your ilk however pee down your pants leg at the thought of them, and that is a problem.
   3363. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: June 18, 2014 at 06:42 PM (#4729976)
Limiting bottles of water was a business decision. Securing the door was great and, basically, the only thing necessary in response to 9/11. But that wouldn't create a huge government agency with lots of money and power. Things that, you know, the folks on the right usually are on the right side of (IMHO, of course). Homeland Security is what you think ACA is.

Why is it mutually exclusive? Why can't I detest both? I didn't vote for Bush, support the Patriot Act, or any invasion of Iraq.
   3364. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 06:45 PM (#4729981)
And the other key members of the IRS that the Washington Post reported also had convenient hard drive crashes over the same time frame that left all their email unrecoverable too?


First, "all their email" is not "unrecoverable." A segment of their email that was stored locally, and not backed up within the 6 month window that the IRS servers were rotated through tape are. As for "convenient" HD crashes, the idea that Lois Lerner intentionally crashed her hard drive in 2011 in order to destroy evidence over a scandal from 2013, by denying emails to investigators in 2014 makes about as much sense as doctors faking a half-black kid's birth certificate in 1961 so he could illegally become president in 2008.

Hard drives crash. Mid-level functionaries of federal agencies tend to have crappy machines bought on the cheap, often with refurbed parts. Those tend to crash more often than higher end, better sourced machines. It is hardly beyond the pale to suggest that two, perhaps even three (gasp!) HDs crashed from 2011-2013. Given the established backup/storage strategies for the agency, any HD crash during that time would impact slightly the margins of potential recoverable emails.
   3365. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 18, 2014 at 06:54 PM (#4729988)
You are such an idiot. I said ISIS you moron.

Yes, I know. My question was what we call a follow-up.

And it is true. Right wing domestic terrorist "Christian" groups have and will do more harm than ISIS to the US. Which is why this is complete non sequitur, because I said nothing like:

You don't know that. A lot of people scoffed at bin Laden and al Qaeda until 9/11, and from what I've been reading, al Qaeda thinks ISIS is too extreme. It's possible that if Willie had spent more time worried about national security threats and less time diddling interns, 9/11 wouldn't have happened at all. God forbid we learn from history and actually handle something before it becomes a major national emergency.

***
First, "all their email" is not "unrecoverable." A segment of their email that was stored locally, and not backed up within the 6 month window that the IRS servers were rotated through tape are. As for "convenient" HD crashes, the idea that Lois Lerner intentionally crashed her hard drive in 2011 in order to destroy evidence over a scandal from 2013, by denying emails to investigators in 2014 makes about as much sense as doctors faking a half-black kid's birth certificate in 1961 so he could illegally become president in 2008.

No one's alleging that Lerner intentionally crashed her HD in 2011, and you know that (or should know it).
   3366. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 07:01 PM (#4729995)
nd from what I've been reading, al Qaeda thinks ISIS is too extreme.


AQ thinks ISIS is "too extreme" because AQ is an internationalist organization with a global strategy. In service of that global strategy, they don't want to attack fellow Muslims and turn them against the cause. ISIS is a regional organization whose primary goal is to establish a sharia-based pseudo-state along the Tigris-Euphrates basin. In service of that regional strategy, they are willing to kill anyone they deem to be too moderate - Muslims included - regardless of how the PR impacts AQ's global PR campaign.

No one's alleging that Lerner intentionally crashed her HD in 2011, and you know that (or should know it).


Well, the HD crashed in 2011. That seems to be established in the linked piece above. So, unless she intentionally crashed it in 2011, the emails lost in that HD crash can't have been intentionally lost as part of a campaign to subvert the investigation.
   3367. GregD Posted: June 18, 2014 at 07:02 PM (#4729996)
I don't see "occupy-and-civilize" as an option that exists in the real world, completely bailing out and letting them slaughter each other (or not) is an option that exists in the real world.


The common ratio given by scholars for a successful occupation is 1:10, or one soldier for every 10 civilians. While you can maintain indirect rule with less than that, the policy people who study it recommend that as the ratio if you actually mean to enforce order, repress uprisings, and create some basic social services. What it would take to "civilize" people--and how long it would take--is a harder question.

But let's stick to 1:10. Iraq has 32 million people. The US would then need a long-term force of 3 million soldiers in Iraq, or 1% of our total population. Right now the Army is a bit under 500,000 people; at peak in the Bush admin it hit about 570,000.

You can't staff 3 million soldiers in Iraq with an Army of 3 million; you need a couple of hundred thousand to maintain our current forts; you need to be able to rotate people in and out. Let's say you can run people through six month tours with three months back, so they're there 9 months a year; that would mean an Army of maybe 4.2-4.3 million.

That's feasible. It's not World War II levels but it is well above anything since. Since our population has grown, it's roughyl comparable to the size of the Army in the 1950s, Korea et al. Extensive draft.

And that's just for Iraq. If the goal is to occupy the whole Middle East, you're talking about a region with 210+ million people, so you need an occupying force of 20+ million. That's basically every single male 20-29 in the US.
   3368. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 18, 2014 at 07:03 PM (#4729997)
Well, the HD crashed in 2011. That seems to be established in the linked piece above. So, unless she intentionally crashed it in 2011, the emails lost in that HD crash can't have been intentionally lost as part of a campaign to subvert the investigation.

Again, nobody is alleging that the emails were "intentionally lost" in 2011. They're alleging the IRS is full of crap in claiming it doesn't maintain email backups for supervisory officials in more than one place and/or for more than 6 months.
   3369. BDC Posted: June 18, 2014 at 07:05 PM (#4729998)
I know a lot of very fine chemists who are Muslim and could bring down a plane with what looks like a stick of deodorant. They don't because they're good people

Not to pick on you personally at all, bunyon, but there's an example of the terminology and identification creep that extremist groups and Western assumptions have made so unfortunate. The religion and culture of those chemists, as you go on to suggest, has virtually 0% to do with their intentions to destroy airplanes. There are hundreds of millions of Muslims in the world, and an overwhelming percentage of them would rather go to graduate school in the United States (to paraphrase Edward Said) than attack it in any way shape or form. Yet an exceedingly few noisy terrorists have provoked prejudices in the West that make it seem like Islam is inherently some kind of club devoted to killing Americans.

This is a terrible trend. I would indeed say that "islamism," as some have defined it here, poses almost zero domestic threat to the US. (The 9/11 hijackers had to be introduced; I very much doubt you could recruit 20 of the most outlandish morons among American Muslims to do what they did.) Nearly every American Muslim is your basic American with goals and dreams like everyone else's. It's when people start assuming that Muslims are violent gangsters, and then qualifying that identification to except "good" Muslims, that extraordinary damage is done.

I get it that this seems like a No True Scotsman argument, but there must be some countervailing fallacy, the Bad Apple or something like that, that you can fall into by trying to avoid it. I just extremely resent insinuations that Islam per se has any particular conflict with American culture or democracy. It just visibly does not.
   3370. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 18, 2014 at 07:10 PM (#4730005)
Not to pick on you personally at all, bunyon, but there's an example of the terminology and identification creep that extremist groups and Western assumptions have made so unfortunate. The religion and culture of those chemists, as you go on to suggest, has virtually 0% to do with their intentions to destroy airplanes. There are hundreds of millions of Muslims in the world, and an overwhelming percentage of them would rather go to graduate school in the United States (to paraphrase Edward Said) than attack it in any way shape or form. Yet an exceedingly few noisy terrorists have provoked prejudices in the West that make it seem like Islam is inherently some kind of club devoted to killing Americans.

This is a terrible trend. I would indeed say that "islamism," as some have defined it here, poses almost zero domestic threat to the US. (The 9/11 hijackers had to be introduced; I very much doubt you could recruit 20 of the most outlandish morons among American Muslims to do what they did.) Nearly every American Muslim is your basic American with goals and dreams like everyone else's. It's when people start assuming that Muslims are violent gangsters, and then qualifying that identification to except "good" Muslims, that extraordinary damage is done.

I get it that this seems like a No True Scotsman argument, but there must be some countervailing fallacy, the Bad Apple or something like that, that you can fall into by trying to avoid it. I just extremely resent insinuations that Islam per se has any particular conflict with American culture or democracy. It just visibly does not.

Talk about P.C. B.S. run amok. Good grief.
   3371. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 18, 2014 at 07:36 PM (#4730027)
It's possible that if Willie had spent more time worried about national security threats and less time diddling interns, 9/11 wouldn't have happened at all.


Yeah, because he was president when 9/11 happened and ignored the memo warning. Oh wait that was Bush.
   3372. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 18, 2014 at 07:39 PM (#4730030)
Yes, I know. My question was what we call a follow-up.


No AQ has done more (that I know of) than The John Birch Society (but I am hardly an expert on the damage that fine organization has done). So what?
   3373. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 18, 2014 at 07:42 PM (#4730034)
Yeah, because he was president when 9/11 happened and ignored the memo warning. Oh wait that was Bush.

Once again, in your attempts to be clever, you refute your own position. To whatever extent Bush ignored anything,* it fit with the inaction you endorsed above.


(* And let's be serious here: If Bush grounded the nation's planes on Sept. 10, 2001, because of a vague report of airline-related terror plans, you and your fellow travelers would have screamed bloody murder. Let's not pretend otherwise.)

No AQ has done more (that I know of) than The John Birch Society (but I am hardly an expert on the damage that fine organization has done). So what?

So what? Knowing what we know now, you don't believe Clinton (and Bush 43) should have been more aggressive toward al Qaeda pre-9/11? And knowing what we know now about ISIS — including ISIS' explicit threats against the U.S. — you don't believe we should take aggressive action against ISIS?

***

By the way, could someone check on Andy? I fear he reread #3270 and fainted again.
   3374. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: June 18, 2014 at 07:44 PM (#4730035)
That's true -- Islamism comes in both Shia and Sunni forms.

Even this is overly simplistic. It's kind of like saying "Americans come in both Republican and Democrat forms."
   3375. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 07:46 PM (#4730038)
The bottom line is that Bear is as fundamentalist and intent on shaping the world to fit his personal religious beliefs as any "Islamist" on the planet.

Yeah, no. I bear literally zero resemblance to a fanatic Islamist. None. There's nothing "fundamentalist" about me or anything I've said, and the things I've stated are in no way "religious."

You're doing that thing again where you move from the "bad words" gambit to the "you're the same thing you're criticizing" gambit. Both are purely substance-free and absurd.

And Western civilization *is* superior to Islamist civilization.

   3376. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: June 18, 2014 at 07:54 PM (#4730043)
By coincidence, I just finished watching a 1955 movie called Jump Into Hell, an American movie that "re-enacts" the Battle of Dien Bien Phu from a POV which casts the French as freedom loving friends of the Indochinese people. It reminded me of the fact that we barely resisted sending troops over there in support of the French, a course which I'm sure some of our "civilizers" here would have approved.

That's the kind of inept "leadership" you get when you put a political novice into the White House.
   3377. Bitter Mouse Posted: June 18, 2014 at 07:58 PM (#4730047)
Once again, in your attempts to be clever, you refute your own position. To whatever extent Bush ignored anything,* it fit with the inaction you endorsed above.


I was just commenting on your desperate need to blame Clinton for something that happened on Bush's watch.

So what? Knowing what we know now, you don't believe Clinton (and Bush 43) should have been more aggressive toward al Qaeda pre-9/11? And knowing what we know now about ISIS — including ISIS' explicit threats against the U.S. — you don't believe we should take aggressive action against ISIS?


Bush should have not ignored the memo. Bush should have pursued OBL like Clinton did. But sometimes things happen. And when they do, you don't randomly invade a country that had nothing to do with it.

But to answer your question yes we should handle the problem. Not by bombing though, then we create new terrorists as we kill the old ones.
   3378. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 08:05 PM (#4730049)
Bush should have not ignored the memo. Bush should have pursued OBL like Clinton did. But sometimes things happen. And when they do, you don't randomly invade a country that had nothing to do with it.

Your premise that a country had to have something directly "to do" with 9/11 is faulty. 9/11 was an act of civilizational war and we had the right to treat it as such.(*) It may be that Saddam and Iraq were so tangential to that civilizational war as to make the action tactically unwise.

But it was perfectly justifiable philosophically.

(*) Even if you don't like the term "civilizational war," it was an act of war, and there's nothing mandating that the sole or even main aim of the response to an act of war should be the killing of the warring party's ringleader.

   3379. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 08:07 PM (#4730050)
Not by bombing though, then we create new terrorists as we kill the old ones.

This is fatuous and nonsensical. There were terrorists aiming at us long before we started bombing and terrorists are ennobled by terrorist successes and other factors more than us bombing them.
   3380. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 08:12 PM (#4730052)
I just extremely resent insinuations that Islam per se has any particular conflict with American culture or democracy. It just visibly does not.

Islam doesn't. Islamism (*) plainly does, beyond any reasonable dispute.

(*) Again, the Wikipedia definition: "Islamism is a set of ideologies holding that Islam should guide social and political as well as personal life." The thing described in this definition is clearly a *thing* and that thing has tens of millions of adherents, many of whom have joined the unmistakable effort to impose itself by force and anarchic violence.
   3381. greenback calls it soccer Posted: June 18, 2014 at 08:17 PM (#4730055)
2: It looks like the IRS has really godawful policies/abilities/procedures wrt retention of electronic documents

This is probably true - the requirement for a hard copy of an "important" email is telling in more ways than one - but Outlook is an amazingly stupid way for a large institution to maintain an archive of documents. If you run a solo law practice, and you want to remember what you did in the Kelo case, then fine. If you are implementing decisions within a large bureaucracy that easily could affect thousands of people, then you better have a more systematic means of storing documentation than a folder in your inbox.

And to echo the Strasserist in #3364, failures in PC hardware can be systemic since PCs tend to be bought in batches.
   3382. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 08:19 PM (#4730059)
Doesn't the IRS have recordkeeping requirements for senior people for National Archive (*) purposes? I know other agencies do.

(*) And FOIA?
   3383. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 18, 2014 at 08:21 PM (#4730060)
I was just commenting on your desperate need to blame Clinton for something that happened on Bush's watch.

No, you were just engaging in more of your usual unprincipled commentary, endorsing inaction one minute and then bashing inaction the next.

Bush should have not ignored the memo. Bush should have pursued OBL like Clinton did.

Clinton pursued OBL? That's hilarious. Is there no history liberals won't shamelessly revise?

But sometimes things happen. And when they do, you don't randomly invade a country that had nothing to do with it.

Homeland attacked by terrorists? Who cares? Sh!t happens, dude.

But to answer your question yes we should handle the problem. Not by bombing though, then we create new terrorists as we kill the old ones.

How do we "handle" ISIS other than by bombing?
   3384. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 08:23 PM (#4730061)
How do we "handle" ISIS other than by bombing?

Why worry about ISIS when the nation is beset by daily mass bombings by "right wing Christian terrorists"?
   3385. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 18, 2014 at 08:28 PM (#4730065)
Why worry about ISIS when the nation is beset by daily mass bombings by "right wing Christian terrorists"?

Damn, they've become so commonplace that I don't even think about them anymore.
   3386. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 08:30 PM (#4730066)
Middle East Quarterly, 2003:

In summation, the term Islamism enjoyed its first run, lasting from Voltaire to the First World War, as a synonym for Islam. Enlightened scholars and writers generally preferred it to Mohammedanism. Eventually both terms yielded to Islam, the Arabic name of the faith, and a word free of either pejorative or comparative associations. There was no need for any other term, until the rise of an ideological and political interpretation of Islam challenged scholars and commentators to come up with an alternative, to distinguish Islam as modern ideology from Islam as a faith... To all intents and purposes, Islamic fundamentalism and Islamism have become synonyms in contemporary American usage.

   3387. GregD Posted: June 18, 2014 at 08:36 PM (#4730069)
Interesting test of polling on ACA. The Republicans are rolling out a strategy of "Start Over" to appeal to women, based on their focus group of women who disapprove of it at a 55% rate, with 43% in "strong opposition."

Since this doesn't match up with any other polling of women, either:
1) The Republicans have a focus group that only includes persuadables, probably only white women
2) The Republicans have crap data
3) The other pollsters have crap data

I assume it is #1, but who knows?
   3388. Publius Publicola Posted: June 18, 2014 at 08:57 PM (#4730075)
I consider it a badge of honor to be on the ignore list of an ill-informed, sloppily-educated loon like Szymborski. And I don't mind being ostracized in the company of Rickey(!) at all. It means I must be doing something right.
   3389. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 18, 2014 at 09:05 PM (#4730077)
But if they are abusing it to screw the Tea Party, then it's all good and serves the public interest well.

I also think the IRS should use the Google surveillance systems to find anybody who claims to be a libertarian and audit their gold-brickin' asses.


Leftist OK with illegal behavior as long as it targets his political opponents. How Nixonian.
   3390. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 09:12 PM (#4730078)
There's nothing "fundamentalist" about me or anything I've said


And Western civilization *is* superior to Islamist civilization.


This is fundamentalist.
   3391. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 09:18 PM (#4730080)
Again, nobody is alleging that the emails were "intentionally lost" in 2011. They're alleging the IRS is full of crap in claiming it doesn't maintain email backups for supervisory officials in more than one place and/or for more than 6 months.


I appreciate your willingness to admit the "convenient HD crash" talking point is lunacy. But then you follow that up with willful ignorance and abject refusal to accept facts inconvenient to your partisan blather. There is absolutely zero reason to suspect the 6 month tape archive system, followed by reuse of old tapes for the next round of backups, is false. Absolutely zero. That's more or less a standard practice across verticals, and no one really considers email systems to be core requirement for longterm backup and disaster recovery. Refusing to believe the backup process timeline is just stupidity, or an ignorance of how IT generally works. You realize the "convenient HD crash two years before any scandal erupted" talking point is dead, due to the stickiness of linear time, so you glom onto some make believe that the IRS IT department is lying about its backup process as part of some sort of deep, multiple department and agency wide coverup to save face for a mid-level bureaucrat. Absolute make believe.
   3392. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 18, 2014 at 09:20 PM (#4730081)
Leftist OK with illegal behavior as long as it targets his political opponents. How Nixonian.


GOP koolaid drinker incapable of reading obvious snark when a failure to do so allows him to pretend a lefty is saying something he's not.
   3393. Brian Posted: June 18, 2014 at 09:25 PM (#4730083)
I hadn't planned on going to the softball game but watching this group get together with baseball bats could really be interesting. I get that it's the internet and all but the level of nasty here is ridiculous.
   3394. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 09:28 PM (#4730084)
This is fundamentalist.

It's not even a matter of doctrine, much less a rabid insistence on adherence to same.

We've sort of been through this already. The thought makes you blanche, so you just think of the worst adjectives you could apply to a political idea and scattershot apply them. We've now been through "imperialist," "fascist," "totalitarian," and "fundamentalist." You've also hit on, "You're no different than an Islamist."(*)

The idea is none of those things. It's a straightforward observation that really isn't even debatable. Even you agree, you just don't like to hear it said. That's your hangup, not mine.

(*) With the obligatory and utterly unnecessary scare quotes around the term, of course.
   3395. greenback calls it soccer Posted: June 18, 2014 at 09:33 PM (#4730088)
Clinton pursued OBL? That's hilarious. Is there no history liberals won't shamelessly revise?

Yes, it's the tail that wags the dog.
   3396. Greg K Posted: June 18, 2014 at 09:36 PM (#4730091)
I hadn't planned on going to the softball game but watching this group get together with baseball bats could really be interesting. I get that it's the internet and all but the level of nasty here is ridiculous.

Hmm, perhaps I shouldn't wear my CCCP jersey to the game after all.
   3397. Random Transaction Generator Posted: June 18, 2014 at 09:37 PM (#4730093)
Why worry about ISIS when the nation is beset by daily mass bombings by "right wing Christian terrorists"?

Damn, they've become so commonplace that I don't even think about them anymore.


Well, they don't kill/injure enough people to really hit the national news, but I have to think that they mean something to the people who are affected by them.
   3398. Greg K Posted: June 18, 2014 at 09:40 PM (#4730095)
Only tangentially related, I saw a guy outside Old City Hall in Toronto today holding up a sign that said "Olivia Chow is a Stooge for the Introduction of Fundamentalist Islam into Canada". I was kind of curious how that would work, but then I figured it was best to do what the hundreds of other people there were doing and pretend he wasn't there.
   3399. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 18, 2014 at 09:41 PM (#4730096)
Well, they don't kill/injure enough people to really hit the national news, but I have to think that they mean something to the people who are affected by them.

So even accepting the definition of "Christian," one death in at least 14 years and less than an incident a year.

OK, yeah, just like ISIS and al-Qaeda.
   3400. Random Transaction Generator Posted: June 18, 2014 at 10:26 PM (#4730113)
So even accepting the definition of "Christian,"


Oh, that's very good of you to accept the definition, because I often hear about atheists that attack planned parenthood offices and medical clinics in North America...

one death in at least 14 years and less than an incident a year.

OK, yeah, just like ISIS and al-Qaeda.


I'm pretty sure it's more than what "ISIS and al-Qaeda" have done in North America in the last 10 years.

And if you'd followed the reference in the link, you'd see that there were over 2000 incidents of violence against clinics between 2002 and 2009.

Page 34 of 47 pages ‹ First  < 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 >  Last ›

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
danielj
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

Newsblog9 reasons Hunter Pence is the most interesting man in the World (Series) | For The Win
(21 - 2:14pm, Oct 25)
Last: boteman

NewsblogDave Dombrowski: Injury worse than expected, Miguel Cabrera 'is as tough as you can possibly be' | MLive.com
(14 - 2:14pm, Oct 25)
Last: cardsfanboy

NewsblogOT: Monthly NBA Thread - October 2014
(392 - 2:08pm, Oct 25)
Last: madvillain

NewsblogOT: Politics, October 2014: Sunshine, Baseball, and Etch A Sketch: How Politicians Use Analogies
(3777 - 2:07pm, Oct 25)
Last: Howie Menckel

NewsblogBuster Olney on Twitter: "Sources: Manager Joe Maddon has exercised an opt-out clause in his contract and is leaving the Tampa Bay Rays immediately."
(83 - 2:05pm, Oct 25)
Last: Rafael Bellylard: Built like a Panda.

NewsblogYost's managerial decisions make for extra-entertaining World Series | FOX Sports
(4 - 1:59pm, Oct 25)
Last: boteman

NewsblogBoston Red Sox prospect Deven Marrero enjoying turnaround in Arizona Fall League | MiLB.com News | The Official Site of Minor League Baseball
(6 - 1:45pm, Oct 25)
Last: Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site

NewsblogOT: The Soccer Thread, September 2014
(933 - 1:35pm, Oct 25)
Last: Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site

NewsblogGambling Bochy creature of habit when it comes to pitchers | CSN Bay Area
(3 - 1:14pm, Oct 25)
Last: esseff

NewsblogMLB - Royals' Ned Yost keeps managing to win - ESPN
(9 - 12:55pm, Oct 25)
Last: The elusive Robert Denby

NewsblogPhils' philospophy beginning to evolve | phillies.com
(8 - 12:43pm, Oct 25)
Last: Cargo Cultist

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 1959 Ballot
(7 - 11:46am, Oct 25)
Last: lieiam

NewsblogRoyals get four AL Gold Glove finalists, but not Lorenzo Cain | The Kansas City Star
(17 - 11:46am, Oct 25)
Last: BDC

Newsblog2014 WORLD SERIES GAME 3 OMNICHATTER
(517 - 10:40am, Oct 25)
Last: RoyalsRetro (AG#1F)

NewsblogCurt Schilling not hiding his scars - ESPN Boston
(23 - 7:32am, Oct 25)
Last: Merton Muffley

Page rendered in 1.1652 seconds
53 querie(s) executed