Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Wednesday, October 31, 2012

OTP November 2012 - Moneypoll! The Pundits vs. The Election-Data Nerds

Come next Tuesday night, we’ll get a resolution (let’s hope) to a great ongoing battle of 2012: not just the Presidential election between Barack Obama and Mitt Romney, but the one between the pundits trying to analyze that race with their guts and a new breed of statistics gurus trying to forecast it with data.

In Election 2012 as seen by the pundits–political journalists on the trail, commentators in cable-news studios–the campaign is a jump ball. There’s a slight lead for Mitt Romney in national polls and slight leads for Barack Obama in swing-state polls, and no good way of predicting next Tuesday’s outcome beyond flipping a coin. ...

Bonus link: Esquire - The Enemies of Nate Silver

Joe Kehoskie Posted: October 31, 2012 at 11:42 PM | 11298 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: mr president, off-topic, politics, sabermetrics, usa

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 110 of 114 pages ‹ First  < 108 109 110 111 112 >  Last ›
   10901. Lassus Posted: November 29, 2012 at 08:34 PM (#4312927)
flip

Thanks, Vaux. I'd be curious what the written policies are, and the adherence in general on the ground, I suppose. I must doubt, I know, it's irritating as I'm not there, but I still have it. I appreciate your input and knowledge.


Adeste Fidelis
Sure.
O Holy Night
Absolutely
Angels we Have Heard on High
Hold on, let me load this rifle.
   10902. McCoy Posted: November 29, 2012 at 08:34 PM (#4312928)



NY State and NJ benefit from the rest of the nation and the rest of the nation benefit from NY State so I see nothing wrong with taxing NY State and using that money in Wyoming. Afterall using that money in North Dakota to setup oil drilling and such helps NY State commerce and citizens and having a large populous state like NY that requires resources benefits states like North Dakota that has resources to sell.

Plus there is an economy of scale going on as well. It's easier to take care of 100 people in a building then 100 people in 100 building.
   10903. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: November 29, 2012 at 08:35 PM (#4312929)
Nick--10830 is a tremendous post.

GB--do you have a link to the info you're posting? It's the kind of stuff I love poking around in.

Oh. My. God. I can only shudder at what the rest of the stuff I can't see looks like.
I imagine Joe posting in the voice that adults in Charlie Brown's tv world use.


Yeah, the dire warnings about not confirming Susan Rice are nonsense;
The party of Sarah Palin and Condi Rice are going to have an awfully hard time making the case that Rice is not qualified, or should be disqualified for the information she passed on regarding the situation in another country
Maybe, but the party of Sarah Palin and Condi Rice don't seem to be able to get it through their heads that raising taxes increases revenues, and they did, after all, choose to run a racist campaign against Sotomayor despite already having trouble with Hispanics and with a national election in the offing . At this point, nothing they come up with would surprise me.

edit: Apropos discussion of the zombie apocalypse, is anyone else getting a .gif at the bottom of the page showing a roll of toilet paper underneath which is text warning that while it takes only 3 hours to empty supermarket shelves of x it takes 3 weeks to refill them?
   10904. Lassus Posted: November 29, 2012 at 08:36 PM (#4312931)
It appears we have a liberal who's shocked, just shocked, at the results of modern liberal governance.

If the absolute worst of everything Vaux said was true, it would still be better than the bulshit you'd be in favor of.


But to take this example specifically, it's not a law that we can't sing Christmas songs, it's a policy, which isn't the same thing--it wasn't put in place by legislation

Words again are the undoing of our resident gadfly. Will they ever just leave him alone, these words?
   10905. Lassus Posted: November 29, 2012 at 08:37 PM (#4312932)
McCoy, did you paste the wrong thing? I'm not being snide, I just think you made an error, they don't match up.
   10906. Joe Kehoskie Posted: November 29, 2012 at 08:41 PM (#4312938)
Joe, things like this do make me almost start feeling like a Republican every once in a while, but only until the Republicans start ranting about "legitimate rape" and proposing to ban same-sex marriage again, and I remember that the constraints they want to place on our actions are much worse than the alternative. But to take this example specifically, it's not a law that we can't sing Christmas songs, it's a policy, which isn't the same thing--it wasn't put in place by legislation, it was presumably a reaction to years of occasional but aggressive complaining.

Understood; just having a little fun with you. At the local level, it often seems like it only takes one complainer to change a practice or policy, especially in these P.C. times. The idea that Christmas songs are a form of indoctrination seems utterly ludicrous, especially given that Christmas was co-opted by businesses long ago.

So it may have something to do with "liberals," but it has nothing to do with "modern liberal governance."

I'll have to respectfully disagree here, unless you can find a bunch of conservative-leaning places that have similarly acquiesced to the complainers and banned Christmas songs.
   10907. Tilden Katz Posted: November 29, 2012 at 08:46 PM (#4312942)
"Let it play out and see what the cost is" — a succinct, if unfortunate, summary of the modern liberal's position on government spending.


Which liberal administration led us into our adventure in Iraq? And claimed it would pay for itself?
   10908. Bitter Mouse Posted: November 29, 2012 at 08:47 PM (#4312943)
Yes, I have this crazy idea that people in Michigan and Tennessee shouldn't have to subsidize wealthier people's desire to rebuild oceanfront homes and buildings.


They are Americans Joe. The government is there to help Americans. Remember Bitter Mouse's Law of Good Government (Just read the Preamble to the constitution). Everyone puts money in and then the Government pays out as needed.
   10909. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: November 29, 2012 at 08:49 PM (#4312945)
Which liberal administration led us into our adventure in Iraq? And claimed it would pay for itself?
You and your damned facts.

Who was it who said reality has a well-known liberal bias?
   10910. Joe Kehoskie Posted: November 29, 2012 at 08:53 PM (#4312947)
Which liberal administration led us into our adventure in Iraq? And claimed it would pay for itself?

Just think what our economy would look like without all of those stimulus defense dollars.

***
They are Americans Joe. The government is there to help Americans. Remember Bitter Mouse's Law of Good Government (Just read the Preamble to the constitution). Everyone puts money in and then the Government pays out as needed.

I can't believe you post this stuff with a straight face. The idea that oceanfront homes and businesses are a "need," let alone a need that demands redistribution from poor to rich, is utterly absurd.

If a $2 million ballpark subsidy is a bad idea, then an $80,000,000,000 subsidy to wealthy homeowners and business owners (and profligate city and state governments) is a bad idea.
   10911. Srul Itza Posted: November 29, 2012 at 08:55 PM (#4312948)
A body that isn't reproducing cells, repairing damages, hydrating, and fighting off pests falls apart very very quickly.


And you know this from personal experience?
   10912. Dr. Vaux Posted: November 29, 2012 at 08:55 PM (#4312951)
At the local level, it often seems like it only takes one complainer to change a policy. The idea that Christmas songs are a form of indoctrination seems utterly ludicrous, especially given that Christmas was co-opted by businesses long ago.


Indeed.

Lassus, I certainly hope the impression we've gotten is less than accurate, at least on a national basis. We'll probably be venturing into another jurisdiction before long. Of course I agree that there are far more horrible things to worry about. Hell, I could look at it as an opportunity to make some money in the juvenile choral music market.

   10913. Srul Itza Posted: November 29, 2012 at 08:55 PM (#4312952)
The notion that NY is asking others to pay for their mishap is such a stupid position to take.


Well, consider the source.

Then put it on Ignore.

EDIT: Really, the only proper response to these posts is: "what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."


And THEN hit Ignore.
   10914. McCoy Posted: November 29, 2012 at 09:00 PM (#4312955)
And you know this from personal experience?

Experience it every single day.
   10915. Srul Itza Posted: November 29, 2012 at 09:03 PM (#4312959)
Yes, I have this crazy idea that people in Michigan and Tennessee shouldn't have to subsidize wealthier people's desire to rebuild oceanfront homes and buildings.


Actually, I agree with this in part (YHWH help me). We should not be paying over and over again to have people re-build in areas that are constantly being hit by storms; if people want to build in inherently dangerous areas, the burden should be on them. That applies to areas regularly devastated by hurricanes and regularly devastated by winter storms -- if you want to live in an area which we know will be hammered on a regular basis, you pick up the tab.

Now, before global warming, that did NOT apply to many of the areas devastated by Sandy, so this is an entirely different issue.
   10916. Srul Itza Posted: November 29, 2012 at 09:04 PM (#4312960)
Experience it every single day.


I'd hate to be a garbage man where you are, having to pick that stuff up on a regular basis. Or are you an undertaker?
   10917. Joe Kehoskie Posted: November 29, 2012 at 09:04 PM (#4312961)
The notion that NY is asking others to pay for their mishap is such a stupid position to take.
Well, consider the source.

Wait, New York's not asking others to "pay for their mishap"? Are the media outlets wrong, or is this the part where the BBTF liberals pretend common words mean something other than their actual meaning?
   10918. Joe Kehoskie Posted: November 29, 2012 at 09:08 PM (#4312966)
Srul Itza, 8:55 PM:
Really, the only proper response to these posts is: "what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

Srul Itza, 9:03 PM:
Actually, I agree with this in part (YHWH help me). We should not be paying over and over again to have people re-build in areas that are constantly being hit by storms; if people want to build in inherently dangerous areas, the burden should be on them. That applies to areas regularly devastated by hurricanes and regularly devastated by hurricane winds -- if you want to live in an area which we know will be hammered on a regular basis, you pick up the tab.

LOL.

Now, before global warming, that did NOT apply to many of the areas devastated by Sandy, so this is an entirely different issue.

Oh, boy.
   10919. McCoy Posted: November 29, 2012 at 09:10 PM (#4312968)
Actually, I agree with this in part (YHWH help me). We should not be paying over and over again to have people re-build in areas that are constantly being hit by storms; if people want to build in inherently dangerous areas, the burden should be on them. That applies to areas regularly devastated by hurricanes and regularly devastated by winter storms -- if you want to live in an area which we know will be hammered on a regular basis, you pick up the tab.

Now, before global warming, that did NOT apply to many of the areas devastated by Sandy, so this is an entirely different issue.


NY and NJ are not constantly hit by storms that cause devastation. Which of course is one of the reasons why the area is so heavily populated.

But really is a one time fee to repair damage every couple of decades really much worse than having to pay out every single year so people can live in a desert or in the mountains or in the arctic or on an island?
   10920. Srul Itza Posted: November 29, 2012 at 09:17 PM (#4312972)
NY and NJ are not constantly hit by storms that cause devastation. Which of course is one of the reasons why the area is so heavily populated.


Which is why I said:

Now, before global warming, that did NOT apply to many of the areas devastated by Sandy, so this is an entirely different issue.


For some of those areas, however, like the barrier islands, winter storms can be a regular problem.
   10921. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: November 29, 2012 at 09:18 PM (#4312973)
But as others have expressed, partaking of art that was inspired by a religion is precisely that and no more. And partaking of art that was inspired by department stores and candy companies is even less than that.

Yeah, but you're one of those guys (Lassus, too) that appreciates that art. A friend was perusing my wall of CDs (I keep about 2000 jewel cases out that mostly haven't been digitized yet), saw how many recordings of Bach's St. Matthew Passion and Bruckner masses (and similar) that I had an is now convinced that I'm a secret Catholic. She simply had failure to comprehend how an agnostic would have so much religious classical music.
   10922. Swoboda is freedom Posted: November 29, 2012 at 09:31 PM (#4312983)
Angels we Have Heard on High
Hold on, let me load this rifle.



Glooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooria.
   10923. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 29, 2012 at 09:32 PM (#4312985)
Does the "screw the coasts" element of thinking apply to the Mississippi River flood plain? Tornado alley? Homes destroyed by fires in the west? Volcanoes?
   10924. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 29, 2012 at 09:34 PM (#4312986)
She simply had failure to comprehend how an agnostic would have so much religious classical music.


All classical music is religious.
   10925. Dr. Vaux Posted: November 29, 2012 at 09:40 PM (#4312990)
A friend was perusing my wall of CDs (I keep about 2000 jewel cases out that mostly haven't been digitized yet), saw how many recordings of Bach's St. Matthew Passion and Bruckner masses (and similar) that I had an is now convinced that I'm a secret Catholic. She simply had failure to comprehend how an agnostic would have so much religious classical music.


One of the members of my college choir, who was religious, had a hard time accepting that the conductor, who was a vocal atheist, loved the music we were performing. He really got a bang out of that, and discoursed on the matter in rather inspiring fashion. He asked for a show of atheist hands, and those of well over half the group went up (including mine--I was more vehement at that time, though I'd still put mine up now, I guess). That made his point pretty eloquently. I guess it's a common issue, but it never really occurred to me before then.
   10926. Srul Itza Posted: November 29, 2012 at 09:41 PM (#4312992)
Glooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooria


In excelsis Deo!
   10927. Joe Kehoskie Posted: November 29, 2012 at 09:42 PM (#4312993)
Does the "screw the coasts" element of thinking apply to the Mississippi River flood plain? Tornado alley? Homes destroyed by fires in the west? Volcanoes?

Yes, unless insurance can cover the risk without needing bailouts; no (as long as they buy insurance); no (ditto); it depends.
   10928. Srul Itza Posted: November 29, 2012 at 09:45 PM (#4312995)
Does the "screw the coasts" element of thinking apply to the Mississippi River flood plain? Tornado alley? Homes destroyed by fires in the west? Volcanoes?


If the homes are in areas that are repeatedly being destroyed and re-built, or are clearly and deliberately in harm's way, then yes, I don't see why I should help pay for re-building your house. As an example, out here, if you buy a lot or build a home in a subdivision on the Big Island, and Madame Pele comes your way, too bad for you.

If the homes are in areas that are not regularly hit, but are only damaged in 100 year storms or by an unusual event, then I don't see why we should not help.

Of course, it seems that 100 year storms are now coming every 3 years, so maybe we need to re-think in general where and how we build our homes.
   10929. Dr. Vaux Posted: November 29, 2012 at 09:53 PM (#4313003)
All classical music is religious.


Knowing Sam, he probably means this pejoratively. But to paraphrase a composer acquaintance of mine (who is Jewish, for the record, but nevertheless eats bacon on pizza), Beethoven believed in God, therefore there is a God.

So to me (Vaux now), the music is the religion. Beethoven, Bach, Josquin, and Perotin are the deities, and the texts they set are the truest thing in the universe while we're singing them. What we take away from the experience is precisely--no more and no less--the strength to do what's right in this world. The words that help impart that feeling to us are immaterial, whether we, or they, are atheist, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, or anything else.
   10930. OCF Posted: November 29, 2012 at 10:19 PM (#4313016)
I play in a local community college (plus some of us general community members) orchestra. And it's a good thing we don't have any religious tests about what music we can and can't play. Occasionally we work with a choir. One time we did that it was part of Haydn's "Creation" oratorio. There's one moment in there - what Haydn does with the notion of "Let there be light" - ah, wonderful. We also do a generally lightweight Christmas program, and usually include an audience singalong on a medley of carols. Well, some years, we also throw in "The Twelve Days of Christmas" as a singalong. Considering the opinions expressed by some of you above, what do you think it's like to play the orchestral accompaniment? Of course, just to share the pain, the arrangement we have jumps up in key by a half step twice during the piece, ending a whole step higher than it started. We can't let the singers in the audience get too comfortable, can we?
   10931. Lassus Posted: November 29, 2012 at 10:24 PM (#4313020)
She simply had failure to comprehend how an agnostic would have so much religious classical music.

I'm dead-on atheist, and the hymn at the end of the modern staging of St. Matt's at BAM (Brooklyn) made me cry, sort of the on-one-hand events that signify for me a sublime accomplishment of the performer.


All classical music is religious.

And all indie rock is hipster.
   10932. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 29, 2012 at 10:27 PM (#4313022)
Knowing Sam, he probably means this pejoratively.


No, I mean that all classical music is religious. All rock and roll is subversive. If it's not subversive, it's not rock and roll. If it's not religious, it's not classical. By definition.

So to me (Vaux now), the music is the religion. Beethoven, Bach, Josquin, and Perotin are the deities, and the texts they set are the truest thing in the universe while we're singing them. What we take away from the experience is precisely--no more and no less--the strength to do what's right in this world. The words that help impart that feeling to us are immaterial, whether we, or they, are atheist, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, or anything else.


Now, any response I'd have to this claptrap would be pejorative.
   10933. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: November 29, 2012 at 10:29 PM (#4313023)
"The Most Wonderful Time of the Year"


To be fair, this is the worst song ever written on any subject ever by anyone.
   10934. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: November 29, 2012 at 10:39 PM (#4313027)
What about subversive classical music?
   10935. Dr. Vaux Posted: November 29, 2012 at 10:50 PM (#4313032)
You're a smart man, Sam, but you have a lot of growing up to do.
   10936. Jay Z Posted: November 29, 2012 at 10:50 PM (#4313034)
On the whole Kate Upton or any ideal woman thing, I would definitely be using my draft picks on something else, or trading down. I just figure that in short order, for myself anyway, I'm going to want to screw any partner in the 60% or so of woman I would ever consider screwing. Love the one you're with and all that. I don't think a lot of guys are going to hold out on some average woman in a real life scenario.
   10937. Srul Itza Posted: November 29, 2012 at 10:52 PM (#4313036)
You're a smart man, Sam, but you have a lot of growing up to do.


Don't confuse Sam with his internet persona.

At least he's not a bot, like RDP and JK.
   10938. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 29, 2012 at 10:57 PM (#4313041)
What is the purpose of classical music?
   10939. Lassus Posted: November 29, 2012 at 10:57 PM (#4313042)
If it's not religious, it's not classical. By definition.

This makes no sense.
   10940. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 29, 2012 at 11:02 PM (#4313045)
This makes no sense.


What is the definition of classical music?
   10941. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 29, 2012 at 11:19 PM (#4313050)
All classical music is religious


Not opera.
   10942. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: November 29, 2012 at 11:23 PM (#4313054)
I would have though Sam a fan of a certain Frederic Rzewski piece...
   10943. Dr. Vaux Posted: November 29, 2012 at 11:26 PM (#4313056)
What is the definition of classical music?


My view is a radical one, but I think that the distinction usually made between "classical" and "popular" traditions, to say nothing of "folk," "traditional," and other notions, is irrelevant to the spirit with which the vast majority of musical utterance is intended, and equally irrelevant to the vast majority of musical experience. The distinction is, musically-speaking, contrived and artificial, and worse, damaging to the actual carrying out of musical activity, since it potentially prejudices the mind in both predictable and unpredictable ways.

Useful descriptive distinctions can be made among types of music and musical practices, obviously, and just as obviously have to be made in order for meaningful musical activity to take place. But the idea of "classical" in opposition to other, presumably "non-classical" practices is not useful and never has been [Edit in response to Dan: except for organizing a CD library!].

More later.
   10944. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 29, 2012 at 11:27 PM (#4313058)
I would have though Sam a fan of a certain Frederic Rzewski piece...


I've never said I wasn't a fan of classical music.
   10945. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: November 29, 2012 at 11:28 PM (#4313059)

One of the members of my college choir, who was religious, had a hard time accepting that the conductor, who was a vocal atheist, loved the music we were performing. He really got a bang out of that, and discoursed on the matter in rather inspiring fashion. He asked for a show of atheist hands, and those of well over half the group went up (including mine--I was more vehement at that time, though I'd still put mine up now, I guess). That made his point pretty eloquently. I guess it's a common issue, but it never really occurred to me before then.


Yeah, one does not to need to have faith in the Christian sense to appreciate the beautiful things that other people *have* been inspired by faith have created. It's one reason I am annoyed by people who try to talk religious people out of their faith - even if I don't believe it's true, if someone does good works as a result of their faith, who am I to judge? Even if the facts behind the religion aren't true in a literal sense, the feelings that many people get from their faith are real.
   10946. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: November 29, 2012 at 11:30 PM (#4313060)
My view is a radical one, but I think that the distinction usually made between "classical" and "popular" traditions, to say nothing of "folk," "traditional," and other notions, is irrelevant to the spirit with which the vast majority of musical utterance is intended, and equally irrelevant to the vast majority of musical experience. The distinction is, musically-speaking, contrived and artificial, and worse, damaging to the actual carrying out of musical activity, since it potentially prejudices the mind in both predictable and unpredictable ways.

I agree.

Though it is useful to have categorical distinctions when organizing a media library!
   10947. McCoy Posted: November 29, 2012 at 11:30 PM (#4313061)
On the whole Kate Upton or any ideal woman thing, I would definitely be using my draft picks on something else, or trading down. I just figure that in short order, for myself anyway, I'm going to want to screw any partner in the 60% or so of woman I would ever consider screwing. Love the one you're with and all that. I don't think a lot of guys are going to hold out on some average woman in a real life scenario.

The last thing you want as breeding stock/life partner in a post-apocalyptic world is some dainty fashion model or actress. You want some Minnesotan or Wisconsin girl who goes out hunting with her dad and carries the buck back to the truck and guts it.

Kate Upton will get you killed, a Wisconsin chick will make your life a helluva lot easier.
   10948. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: November 29, 2012 at 11:31 PM (#4313062)
Just think what our economy would look like without all of those stimulus defense dollars.
JoeK thinks federal stimulus is a great idea. Keynesian economics wins again.
   10949. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: November 29, 2012 at 11:32 PM (#4313063)
A friend was perusing my wall of CDs (I keep about 2000 jewel cases out that mostly haven't been digitized yet), saw how many recordings of Bach's St. Matthew Passion and Bruckner masses (and similar) that I had an is now convinced that I'm a secret Catholic. She simply had failure to comprehend how an agnostic would have so much religious classical music.

People are always trying to pigeonhole other people. I've got well over 500 books on the rise of Hitler, American anti-Semitism, and the Holocaust, and I've had many people look at them and assume I'm Jewish. Both at home and in my shop I have / had hundreds of books on the Stalin era, mostly testimonies of refugees and first hand accounts of journalists and other visitors. Conservative customers would come in for their first visit, see a row of Robert Conquest books, and assume I must be a neocon in my political views, and probably a conservative Republican. (I'm obviously not, though Conquest is one of my heroes.) Lots of people can't understand why anyone would want to acquire knowledge of a POV that doesn't correspond with their pre-existing convictions, or have intense interest in a subject matter that's not associated with their professional field. Not much you can do about people like that, I'm afraid.
   10950. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 29, 2012 at 11:33 PM (#4313064)
My view is a radical one, but I think that the distinction usually made between "classical" and "popular" traditions, to say nothing of "folk," "traditional," and other notions, is irrelevant to the spirit with which the vast majority of musical utterance is intended, and equally irrelevant to the vast majority of musical experience. The distinction is, musically-speaking, contrived and artificial, and worse, damaging to the actual carrying out of musical activity.


I'm not sure I'll disagree with you here, but if we're going to distinguish into the traditional category of "classical music," what is it that makes a piece of music "classical" or not?
   10951. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: November 29, 2012 at 11:35 PM (#4313066)
Yeah, one does not to need to have faith in the Christian sense to appreciate the beautiful things that other people *have* been inspired by faith have created. It's one reason I am annoyed by people who try to talk religious people out of their faith - even if I don't believe it's true, if someone does good works as a result of their faith, who am I to judge? Even if the facts behind the religion aren't true in a literal sense, the feelings that many people get from their faith are real.

Absolutely, and I think that we can all be eternally grateful that Bach, Beethoven and Buxtehude weren't secular humanists.
   10952. Dr. Vaux Posted: November 29, 2012 at 11:36 PM (#4313067)
Full endorsement of 10945. That's precisely what I'm getting at in some of the earlier posts.
   10953. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 29, 2012 at 11:39 PM (#4313068)
Yeah, one does not to need to have faith in the Christian sense to appreciate the beautiful things that other people *have* been inspired by faith have created.


I'll also repeat for clarity; I never claimed classical music was Christian. I said it was religious by definition. Actually, to Vaux point, it's hard to imagine any music that is not religious in nature. Humans don't sing the heavens without, well, singing the heavens.
   10954. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: November 29, 2012 at 11:40 PM (#4313069)
I'm not sure I'll disagree with you here, but if we're going to distinguish into the traditional category of "classical music," what is it that makes a piece of music "classical" or not?

It's often hard to pin it down, but any music that survives for many multiple generations certainly fits the bill. It's no disrespect to traditional classical music that jazz is often referred to as "American classical music", even though little of it would at first glance seem to have much in common with the sort of music usually performed in symphony halls.
   10955. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 29, 2012 at 11:47 PM (#4313072)
It's often hard to pin it down, but any music that survives for many multiple generations certainly fits the bill. It's no disrespect to traditional classical music that jazz is often referred to as "American classical music", even though little of it would at first glance seem to have much in common with the sort of music usually performed in symphony halls.


I would argue that jazz is clearly a classical genre. I would define as classical any form or genre of music that has outlived the cultural conditions of its creation. Which is not to say "classical" compositions or jazz compositions are not written today, nor that are intrinsically less value aesthetically, but that they are created via an instinctual nostalgia for a cultural moment past, rather than alive and engaged with the popular culture of their time.
   10956. Lassus Posted: November 29, 2012 at 11:52 PM (#4313074)
I'm not sure I'll disagree with you here, but if we're going to distinguish into the traditional category of "classical music," what is it that makes a piece of music "classical" or not?
Classical music is the art music produced in, or rooted in, the traditions of Western liturgical and secular music, encompassing a broad period from roughly the 11th century to present times. The central norms of this tradition became codified between 1550 and 1900, which is known as the common practice period.

I have a decent idea what you are getting at, Sam, but your insistence on an overwhelming pigeonhole is pretty misguided here. Classical music obviously has a huge connection to the sacred, but Schubert's Trout quintet is as classical a piece of music as classical gets. It's "Classical" to the Nth degree, and it simply is in no way whatsoever religious. One of the most brilliant artistic responses to the war was Poulenc's "Figure Humaine", text by Paul Eluard, and it simply is not religious at all. The near-infinite catalog of dance music for the last 700 years would in all ways by all people considered classical, subjects from animals to court drama to sex sex sex.

This is all classical music, and to call it religious is simply false.
   10957. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 29, 2012 at 11:58 PM (#4313077)
The Zombies in 28 Days Later were mindless eating machines.


The infected people in 28 days later didn't eat anyone. They attacked them because the "rage virus" made them aggressive, and then the victims were themselves infected through contact with the bodily fluids of the infected. That's why the infected all starved to death at the end - they weren't taking care of their bodies' physical needs.

Did you actually see the movie? If not, you should. It's good.
   10958. Lassus Posted: November 29, 2012 at 11:58 PM (#4313078)
I would define as classical any form or genre of music that has outlived the cultural conditions of its creation.

This definition is fine. How on earth do you get from here to "If it isn't religious, it isn't classical music"?

Unless you were just, well, trolling.
   10959. Howie Menckel Posted: November 30, 2012 at 12:00 AM (#4313079)

"Lots of people can't understand why anyone would want to acquire knowledge of a POV that doesn't correspond with their pre-existing convictions, or have intense interest in a subject matter that's not associated with their professional field."

You are offering this info to many who got angry with those who hadn't chosen which candidate to pull the lever for as President, a mere two months before the election.

May God have mercy on your soul.

:)

   10960. Lassus Posted: November 30, 2012 at 12:00 AM (#4313080)
I'll also repeat for clarity; I never claimed classical music was Christian. I said it was religious by definition. Actually, to Vaux point, it's hard to imagine any music that is not religious in nature. Humans don't sing the heavens without, well, singing the heavens.

What was that about claptrap?
   10961. Dr. Vaux Posted: November 30, 2012 at 12:13 AM (#4313083)
what is it that makes a piece of music "classical" or not?


The way the term has wound up being used in music history sort of torpedoes its historical usefulness all by itself. Essentially, ever since modern Western musical historiography was established in the mid-19th century or so, "classical"* has been used generally to refer to music that is (a) conceived and carried out as fully notated, as opposed to being improvised in full or part, (b) therefore passed on by means of notation rather than oral tradition, and (c) traceable to a single, identifiable composer. That seems simple enough, and indeed, the category of music just outlined is one that actually exists and is useful in discourse.

But what actually gets considered "classical" in historiographical practice has been determined on a case-by-case basis, often contradictorily to the definition just given. Notated medieval European music, for example, often occurs in manuscript sources anonymously, violating (c), and was apparently transmitted orally as well as being notated, sometimes only after it had existed in oral form for unknown periods of time, violating (b). It got to be considered "classical" just because of its age by the time the 19th century rolled around, though in fairness it does adhere to (c) and (b) a good part of the time, too. Baroque music wasn't really fully notated, violating (b); it was often written in such a way that what were essentially chord symbols had to be realized by one or more keyboardists or lutanists in order for the full texture to be heard. It got to be considered "classical" because Bach and Handel had to be classical. In the 20th century, there has been music that is fully or partly improvised, violating (b), albeit according to sometimes rather detailed instructions--and sometimes much less detailed ones, but the presence of instructions upholds (a)--that gets to be considered "classical" because the instructions were written by a single, identifiable individual, upholding (c).

Meanwhile, for example, "I've Been Working on the Railroad" isn't considered classical, but rather "folk." Let's explore why: it's presumed to have existed for some time before being notated, which violates (a) and (b), and there isn't an identified person who first came up with it, which violates (c). On the other hand, all of those precepts have been violated by types of music that are considered "classical." Indeed, if "I've Been Working on the Railroad" was basically unknown to anyone living for a couple of hundred years, and was then read in notation out of a dusty old music book, its situation would be identical to that of the anonymous, eventually-but-not-originally notated Medieval music that got to be considered "classical." Still, that isn't the case, and since it does violate all three precepts, it's easy enough to understand why "I've Been Working on the Railroad" is considered "folk" instead of "classical."

"Popular" music is a harder nut to crack.



* This is classical with a lower-case C, which is what we're discussing. "Classical" with an upper-case C refers to the music of Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, and their contemporaries, and it was first applied in the mid-19th century to express the idea that their music had been an unsurpassable high point. It's the same idea as the use of the term "classic rock," which may or may not be enshrined as meaning something equally specific in 150 years.
   10962. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: November 30, 2012 at 12:20 AM (#4313087)
There's lots of modern classical music that is a huge part of popular culture: film music. The score to Star Wars or any movie with an orchestral score is essentially incidental music in the classical tradition. Even some of the most popular video game scores fit in the tradition - though not of the same quality, fulfills the same purpose.
   10963. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: November 30, 2012 at 12:24 AM (#4313090)
I won't say this very often at all, but I think you guys are being a little *too* rough on Sam. I think we probably ponder the philosophy and cultural aspects of "classical" music more than most people do.
   10964. Dr. Vaux Posted: November 30, 2012 at 12:29 AM (#4313091)
I would define as classical any form or genre of music that has outlived the cultural conditions of its creation. Which is not to say "classical" compositions or jazz compositions are not written today, nor that are intrinsically less value aesthetically, but that they are created via an instinctual nostalgia for a cultural moment past, rather than alive and engaged with the popular culture of their time.


Your first sentence could eventually be a reasonable definition, because it applied as of the mid-19th century to the music that was canonized as "classical" at that time. But your second sentence contradicts the first. If a classical composition is written today, how can it have "outlived the cultural conditions of its creation"? If a piece of art, or a piece of anything, is created today, it's created under the cultural conditions of today.

Next, you say that a classical composition of today is created out of nostalgia for the past, but if that were so, it would carefully adhere to the past style rather than attempting to push stylistic boundaries farther than they've been pushed before (it's a testimony to the healthy plurality of our time that there are pieces being written that do essentially adhere to styles that were new a long time ago as well as pieces that try to push the boundaries--I approve of both practices personally).

Finally, you suggest that "popular culture" is the only valid living culture, which just doesn't make sense. Any human activity is culture, and human activity being performed by living humans is living culture. "Popular" in this context just means "broadly known about and partaken of," but the early 21st century is a time when the most broadly partaken of things are less broadly partaken of than they've been at any time in the recent past. We talk about that all the time in the World Series ratings threads. This is a time of subcultures--microcultures.
   10965. Dr. Vaux Posted: November 30, 2012 at 12:36 AM (#4313093)
There's lots of modern classical music that is a huge part of popular culture: film music. The score to Star Wars or any movie with an orchestral score is essentially incidental music in the classical tradition. Even some of the most popular video game scores fit in the tradition - though not of the same quality, fulfills the same purpose.


Yes, absolutely. And it's "classical" according to the definition in 10961, which I do think is a decent definition even though I'm poking holes in the way it's been used historically. I've encountered people who seem to want to categorize film music--even the fully-notated orchestral film music we're discussing--as "popular" music just because of its presence in popular culture, which would adhere to a consistent definition of popular culture, but not a consistent definition of classical vs. popular music.

I won't say this very often at all, but I think you guys are being a little *too* rough on Sam. I think we probably ponder the philosophy and cultural aspects of "classical" music more than most people do.


My "growing up" comment notwithstanding, for my part I'm expounding on this because I consider Sam worth discussing the subject with. I hope he doesn't think he's being castigated or talked down to.
   10966. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: November 30, 2012 at 12:48 AM (#4313097)
Though it is useful to have categorical distinctions when organizing a media library!

See, and I hate trying to put things in any particular "genre" - got tons of stuff in my iTunes, but I just take whatever category info right on out of there.
   10967. Dr. Vaux Posted: November 30, 2012 at 01:27 AM (#4313107)
Continuing with 10961, it appears that (c)--traceability to a single, known composer--is what really determines the "classical" status of a piece of music as far as historiography is concerned. But the fact that this is selective and changes over time is what calls the concept into question even apart from the fact that I, and no doubt most of us, have certainly been just as moved by "popular" songs as works of "classical" music, and since hearing music is an experience, it would seem that the experience of music is the most valid basis from which to contemplate any type of critical judgment.

Take the case of jazz, which has been brought up. Is it popular or classical, or something else altogether, and does it matter? Before the 1960s, it was virtually unequivocally considered popular. But it was often (obviously not always, and there are purists who would say not at its best) at least almost as fully notated as Baroque music, and in those instances was just as traceable to an identifiable composer or composer/arranger team. By historiographical standards, it makes every bit as much sense to consider jazz "classical." But the idea of "classical" was conceived as applying to music that had both feet firmly planted in European soil (as firmly as possible, or more accurately, knowable--obviously there are always ultimately varied and far-flung influences on any music). Jazz isn't such music. The fact that jazz was not a European music (though it uses the major and minor scales and the triadic system of harmonies that come from the European tradition) may have led it not to be pigeonholed by historians after it was well-established; perhaps it's able to transcend the historiographical divide for that reason. Certainly someone like Duke Ellington is fully considered to be a "composer" in the same sense that Bach is one, and his compositions to be "works" in the same sense as Bach's. And nowadays a great amount of American "classical" music is quite influenced by both the rhythms and harmonies of jazz as well as of music that is more widely considered simply "popular," further blurring old boundaries

Which brings us to the subject of popular music. It certainly appears that popular songs, and particular recordings of those songs, are going to be canonized as part of an historical tradition that will be relived by future generations. Does that make them "classical"? Obviously, the practices of popular performers and groups vary greatly. In some cases, a song does indeed consist of a written melody and chord symbols at least, often with a bass line, and in some cases there is a more elaborate arrangement. In other cases, what was improvised and what was predetermined is less clear, and it is often the case that, at least officially, there is no particular indication of who composed the predetermined aspects of the music. Writing credits are frequently determined by recording and publishing contracts rather than, or in addition to, actual artistic responsibility. Then too, there is the fact that the performance itself is such an important aspect of what constitutes the song as a "work," whereas in, say, a Beethoven symphony, it's quite clear that the notes on the page are the work, and the performance is simply (or not so simply) the playing of those notes.

These issues make the popular song as conceived and carried out by a popular musical group a distinct genre, certainly, from the 19th-century symphony. But the 20th-century string quartet is also a distinct genre from the 19th-century symphony. Krysztof Penderecki's string music is different from Mozart's string music in every way other than using the same instruments. And the popular song does exist permanently as a recording, while many "classical" pieces of the 20th century--electronic pieces--also exist only as recordings. It is only by historical inertia--and difficult to understand historical inertia at that--that Penderecki, Morton Subotnik, Charles Wuorinen, and Eric Ewazen are all considered "classical" when they could hardly be more different from each other,while the recordings produced by "popular" groups are considered something else.

Thus, to summarize, the idea of "classical" and "popular" in the music of today is virtually meaningless, and the meaning it does possess is only useful for the purpose of understanding the history of historiography, which was itself sufficiently inconsistent as to throw the entire idea of distinction into question. Music is awesome, the end.
   10968. Dr. Vaux Posted: November 30, 2012 at 01:35 AM (#4313108)
That is a simplification that leaves out socio-economic factors, but I can explain why those are equally problematic when received historiography is examined carefully.

(Put very briefly, Mozart was writing music every bit as much for commercial purposes as today's pop stars. The phenomenon of the composer who isn't significantly concerned with making money from composing, and isn't frequently motivated to compose a given work at a given time almost entirely by the prospect of making money, is a thoroughly 20th-century concept,* and even at that, it is in the vast majority of cases nothing but a concept.)

* It's really a 19th-century Romantic ideal, but no one really fantasized that it had been put into practice until the 20th century.
   10969. BrianBrianson Posted: November 30, 2012 at 04:20 AM (#4313133)
So is Joe really arguing that states hit by a natural disaster should not get aid from the Federal Government? Really?


It's a fundamental premise of the "tax cuts will cure what ails ya" economic philosophy that the federal government doesn't spend taxes on things that benefit you, but just heaps it up and burns it, or stores it in old mayonaisse jars, or something. That's why tax cuts are always beneficial, and tax increases are always negative. If the people of New York and New Jersey see their tax money benefitting them, they're liable to keep voting Democrat or sacrificing babies to Satan or Albert Belle or something.
   10970. Greg K Posted: November 30, 2012 at 05:42 AM (#4313140)
Kate Upton will get you killed, a Wisconsin chick will make your life a helluva lot easier.

Unless she decides to hunt you.
   10971. Greg K Posted: November 30, 2012 at 06:28 AM (#4313145)
Finding the discussion of music fascinating.

Vaux, so far your discussion is focused on the production of music (who produces it, where/when it's produced, how it's produced/recorded, the cultural and musical tradition it's produced within), but throughout most of your comments there is an undercurrent of how it is consumed. I was wondering if you could develop on that. Can the genre/categorization/classification of a piece of music change over time as the nature of its audience changes? You touched on a bit of this with jazz. It seems like the word "classical" is doing a bit of double duty as signifying a particular style of music as well as meaning "non-popular". I appreciate the clarification of the precise historiographical meaning of the term, but it's all a bit muddied isn't it?
   10972. formerly dp Posted: November 30, 2012 at 07:11 AM (#4313148)
Vaux/Lassus, very informative discussion, thanks. Though I think Vaux might be cutting and pasting from his comps.

Sam, you know how sometimes Rickey would get thrown out trying to steal, and then keep standing on second like he wasn't called out? This is one of those...
   10973. Lassus Posted: November 30, 2012 at 07:14 AM (#4313149)
Vaux's the enlightening one, I'm just hitting softballs.
   10974. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: November 30, 2012 at 08:03 AM (#4313159)
Looks like Obama's opening salvo was 1.6T in increased taxes, 400B in cuts to Medicare and other programs, and a pitiful 50B in stimulus spending.

The usual wankers in the MSM are describing Obama's proposal as 'not serious' and 'insulting'. Oh, and 'loaded with proposals Democrats want'. As opposed to...?

Joe Scarborough, apparently unbowed by his humiliation at the hands of Nate Silver, is completely stunned that Obama is making Boehner's life difficult. Scarborough wants to compare this to a house purchase. There, he says, you can walk away if your offer is declined. He seems confused. He seems to believe that if Obama upsets House Republicans, they may refuse to negotiate and refuse to raise the debt ceiling. This, of course, would be Obama's fault.

Somehow.
   10975. Bitter Mouse Posted: November 30, 2012 at 08:16 AM (#4313167)
I can't believe you post this stuff with a straight face. The idea that oceanfront homes and businesses are a "need," let alone a need that demands redistribution from poor to rich, is utterly absurd.


I love how all the federal aid has transformed into "oceanfront homes and businesses" like magic. There are a couple points here.

Yes the Federal government should establish some regulations/policies regarding development in vulnerable places (which by the way is not just oceanfront property) vis-a-vis disaster relief, especially in light of climate change and changes in that vulnerability. However until the regulations are in place (with a reasonable time/chance to follow them and some stuff grandfathered in) there is a clear expectation of Federal aid. To decide now to abandon the Federal commitment with no warning no regulations nothing in fact would be near criminal.

The whole rich versus poor is a demagogic trick - there are plenty of poor folks getting aid and plenty of rich paying in, and even if not it is irrelevant. The central premise is what is the role of the Federal government regarding disasters which impact a region of the country. I believe the Federal government should 'promote the general Welfare', and part of that is acting as a form of risk pool for when disasters strike that are too large for local government to handle.

---

Regarding music and its classifications it feels to me to be analogous to human racial classifications. In broad strokes it can make sense and be a useful tool to describe groups of things, but the further down in the details and exceptions you get the more obvious it is that the whole thing is a somewhat artificial construct and how near impossible it is to arrive at neat clean boundaries and classifications which mean anything - and you end up with terms like quadroon, octoroon, and quintroon.

And no I am not implying it is wrong to talk about music like this, I know I have my music classified. I am just saying it gets really hazy at the edges and there are always exceptions, qualifications and oddly parsed terms the further you go.
   10976. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: November 30, 2012 at 08:20 AM (#4313171)
the production of music
A little different vein, and I know very little about this, but lately I've gotten to know a little more through a friend of a friend, who plays for Their Planes Will Blot Out The Sun ("Teflon Kids", "Boardwalk Splinters"... I don't think they're well known, but I don't follow pop/rock, so they could be incredibly famous and I'd have missed them). They're releasing their first CD with a new lineup, and how music gets produced and promoted in an age of ubiquitous file sharing is interesting. Apparently the money is in touring, even though royalties have skyrocketed over the years. Iirc, Apple pays 70 cents on the dollar for iTunes purchases. I remember hearing horror stories of bands back in the 60s and 70s (and doubtless in other decades) being lucky to make pennies per album sale. If I have Apple's arrangement right, why wouldn't it be the case that you could be cheated out of 9 of 10 sales and still make money compared to the bad old days? Add to this the world's population has doubled in the last 50 years, and if you can make .70 per single the money has to be there.

edit: who broke the page?
   10977. BDC Posted: November 30, 2012 at 08:23 AM (#4313172)
Just wanted to descend to the lowbrow for a moment to second Steve's endorsement of "The Christmas Song." Like Irving Berlin (and "White Christmas" is a good song too, if also overplayed), Mel Torme was Jewish, and both songs are seasonal but not sacred: they capture a sense that I'd reckon lots and lots of immigrant Jews had when coming to America: this is not a holiday of our faith, but things like turkey and mistletoe, and sleighbells in the snow, and such, are very evocative just in a secular sense.

And speaking of bells, I would like to nominate Leroy Anderson's Sleigh Ride for deletion from the world's stock of music.
   10978. BDC Posted: November 30, 2012 at 08:31 AM (#4313176)
Oh, and this is what I actually meant to say, but got distracted by lyrics and culture: musically, "The Christmas Song" is very cool. I know just enough about music to bang out standards on the piano from lead sheets. Most Christmas standards are extremely simple, in C or G, and go up and down the scale with a few basic chords. "The Christmas Song" is in E-flat, it's got a lot of surprises in the melody, and though it's not terribly hard to play compared to many songs by Berlin or Porter, it's just in a completely different idiom as a composition.
   10979. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: November 30, 2012 at 08:38 AM (#4313179)
Pat Robertson takes a shot at creationism

You go back in time, you've got radiocarbon dating. You got all these things, and you've got the carcasses of dinosaurs frozen in time out in the Dakotas,” Robertson said. “They're out there. So, there was a time when these giant reptiles were on the Earth, and it was before the time of the Bible. So, don't try and cover it up and make like everything was 6,000 years. That's not the Bible.”


This though was disturbing:

Forty-six percent of Americans believe that God created humans in their present form at one point within the past 10,000 years, according to a survey released by Gallup in June.


To paraphrase Felix Unger, I fear much for the future Frederick. Let's hope gallup is as inaccurate with this as they were about the election.
   10980. formerly dp Posted: November 30, 2012 at 08:40 AM (#4313181)
   10981. Rants Mulliniks Posted: November 30, 2012 at 08:40 AM (#4313182)
I had a co-worker in the office next to mine who would start playing a CD of tradtional Christmas carols on November 1st, and keep it on repeat all day every day until the office closed for Christmas. It took me a few years to get past my hatred of those songs.

I love Baroque and chamber music, and orchestral classical to lesser extent, but I don't listen to it enough to be able to identify any but the most famous pieces upon hearing them.
   10982. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: November 30, 2012 at 09:02 AM (#4313187)
I had a co-worker in the office next to mine who would start playing a CD of tradtional Christmas carols on November 1st, and keep it on repeat all day every day until the office closed for Christmas.


I may be banned from the cool kids club forever for saying this, but I think Mannheim Steamroller does a nice job with many traditional and modern Christmas songs/carols. I'm also partial to jazzy renditions of traditional Christmas songs. The CD "Jingle Bell Jazz" is very good, in particular "Oh Little Town of Bethlehem" by the Heath Brothers. All I can find free online is a sample. In general, it's fair to say I prefer the melodies of these songs to the lyrics, Nat King Cole versions excepted.

edit: Oh, also Jingle Bells by Duke Ellington
   10983. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 30, 2012 at 09:32 AM (#4313206)
Sam, you know how sometimes Rickey would get thrown out trying to steal, and then keep standing on second like he wasn't called out? This is one of those...


Rickey's not out. Rickey's just resting. (Rickey actually got distracted throwing things at the radio as the Falcons went 30 friggin' minutes without making a first down, then got distracted by the beat down the defense put on Drew Brees, then collapsed and went to sleep on the couch because he was tired.)

I sort of knew this conversation would get good right as I was leaving it. (If it were a troll, it landed a pretty good sized fish, did it not?) I haven't had time to really parse through and digest all of Vaux's posts in detail, and I don't know that I'll have the bandwidth to do that before the afternoon, but suffice to say I like this conversation a lot more than the sordid repetitions of men banging their head against the Great Wall Of Joe for no apparent reason.

For the time being, I'm going to stick with my conception of "classical" or "classic" musics. They are forms that have

1) Outlived the cultural conditions of their creation, inclusive of nostalgic works which reach backwards in time to the formal elements which were used by artists of previous eras to engage with their times. I consider most movie scoring to be this sort of nostalgic reaching back, and thus classical. I also consider my friend Tara's little troupe that tours Renn fairs and plays "authentic medieval music" to be classical in this regard.

I also think all classical genres

2) Pull from a more or less official "song book." Whether this is Beethoven, Bach and Handel, or the jazz standards, or the 40 something pub band playing all the classic rock hits of the 60s and 70s, it's still a nostalgic action.

I will also modify my comment on all classical music being religious to note that I consider any thinking or creative act that is hinged on nostalgic longing to be religious (which shouldn't be confused with "spiritual" per se, nor should it be confused with any specific religion.)

Finally, I'm more than open to freethinking and being persuaded to other points of view on this topic, especially by folks like Vaux, Lassus and Dan who work in those song books with a frequency far, far greater than mine. This is not, for me, the same sort of thing as arguing that the GOP is a reactionary force in American politics today, or that a HOF without Barry Bonds is stupid by definition, that Ray is a robot, or that up close Dan is sort of scary and smells vaguely of cabbage.
   10984. The Good Face Posted: November 30, 2012 at 10:03 AM (#4313233)
The last thing you want as breeding stock/life partner in a post-apocalyptic world is some dainty fashion model or actress. You want some Minnesotan or Wisconsin girl who goes out hunting with her dad and carries the buck back to the truck and guts it.

Kate Upton will get you killed, a Wisconsin chick will make your life a helluva lot easier.


It really depends on what you need from the woman. If your primary interest is repopulating the earth, and you have enough people on hand to cover the necessary work/areas of skill, a Kate Upton isn't a terrible choice. She's very young and has the hips/boobs that signify "fertility"; at 5'10 with all the curves she has, I'm not sure it's fair to characterize her as "dainty".

If it was just you and your future partner trying to make a new life, then yeah; find yourself a sturdy farmgirl. Looks optional.
   10985. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 30, 2012 at 10:06 AM (#4313235)
It really depends on what you need from the woman. If your primary interest is repopulating the earth, and you have enough people on hand to cover the necessary work/areas of skill, a Kate Upton isn't a terrible choice. She's very young and has the hips/boobs that signify "fertility"; at 5'10 with all the curves she has, I'm not sure it's fair to characterize her as "dainty".


It's the zombie ####### apocalypse and you lot are looking to breed? What the hell is wrong with you people?! The proper companionship for zombie apocalypse is 1)a good marksmanship score coupled with 2) hotness and 3) infertility.

You don't repopulate the earth after zombie apocalypse, you fools. You play out the string until you to are turned.
   10986. Bitter Mouse Posted: November 30, 2012 at 10:11 AM (#4313237)
In general I don't like zombie stories. There are some good ones but the whole trope is WAY overdone and not that great to start with. At this point even vampires are slightly more interesting, and those are words I never thought I would type.
   10987. OCF Posted: November 30, 2012 at 10:11 AM (#4313238)
And speaking of bells, I would like to nominate Leroy Anderson's Sleigh Ride for deletion from the world's stock of music.

That community orchestra I mentioned above, with its Christmas concert? We play that nearly every year. We're doing it again this year. Funny thing is that Anderson did not write it with the intent that it be associated with Christmas.

Oh, and I'm a violist. Leroy Anderson did not like us violists. Nothing but off beats. Dullest parts imaginable.
   10988. The Good Face Posted: November 30, 2012 at 10:14 AM (#4313242)
It's the zombie ####### apocalypse and you lot are looking to breed? What the hell is wrong with you people?! The proper companionship for zombie apocalypse is 1)a good marksmanship score coupled with 2) hotness and 3) infertility.

You don't repopulate the earth after zombie apocalypse, you fools. You play out the string until you to are turned.


That's quitter talk. No wonder Atlanta can't win a championship in, well, anything if folks like you are representative of the fanbase.

Besides, you're not thinking outside the box. Babies aren't just cute lil manifestations of your genetic awesomeness. They're also a good zombie distraction/emergency food source in a pinch.
   10989. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: November 30, 2012 at 10:18 AM (#4313247)
People are always trying to pigeonhole other people. I've got well over 500 books on the rise of Hitler, American anti-Semitism, and the Holocaust, and I've had many people look at them and assume I'm Jewish.


How many make the opposite assumption (that you are a neo-Nazi)? And of those, how many don't turn tail and leave the store, but rather linger...
   10990. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: November 30, 2012 at 10:19 AM (#4313249)
It's one reason I am annoyed by people who try to talk religious people out of their faith - even if I don't believe it's true, if someone does good works as a result of their faith, who am I to judge? Even if the facts behind the religion aren't true in a literal sense, the feelings that many people get from their faith are real.


It seems to me that this leads one ineluctably to a Straussian worldview that sees the truth as the province of a select 'elite' -- that the masses are to be kept in darkness for their own good. Only a few people can handle the truth, in other words; for most the truth makes them miserable, so it's for the guardians of the truth to protect it and keep it from getting into general circulation. I find that a morally repugnant view, but it seems to me the inevitable result of that line of thinking.
   10991. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 30, 2012 at 10:19 AM (#4313250)
Besides, you're not thinking outside the box. Babies aren't just cute lil manifestations of your genetic awesomeness. They're also a good zombie distraction/emergency food source in a pinch.


You know who travels light and fast? Pregnant women.
   10992. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: November 30, 2012 at 10:23 AM (#4313255)
You know who travels light and fast? Pregnant women.


hey, you don't have to outrun the zombies, you only have to outrun her.
   10993. JuanGone..except1game Posted: November 30, 2012 at 10:26 AM (#4313260)
In general I don't like zombie stories. There are some good ones but the whole trope is WAY overdone and not that great to start with. At this point even vampires are slightly more interesting, and those are words I never thought I would type.


Just started reading The Passage last week from the advice of friend who doesn't read alot of genre fiction. I was reluctant, but the book has reeled me in. Have to agree that its the strategic nature of vampires that I find more compelling than the mindless eating. I guess its why I will defend to the death "Land of the Dead" because thinking zombies with a leadership structure are not to be trifled with.
   10994. Lassus Posted: November 30, 2012 at 10:30 AM (#4313263)
I will also modify my comment on all classical music being religious to note that I consider any thinking or creative act that is hinged on nostalgic longing to be religious (which shouldn't be confused with "spiritual" per se, nor should it be confused with any specific religion.)

The trouble with this is that as you are defining your own term with "religious" that no one else could be expected to have by default. If I don't agree with your definition of religious, there's nowhere to go.

Regarding that definition, the creative act that brings about a Mozart piano concerto is no more nostalgic than any of your 45 bands in 45 days. Music that is defined as classical, as stated above, can certainly be religious, or nostalgic, or both. However, the amount of music composed that can without debate be classified as classical and not belong to anything nostalgic or religious is so immense, it makes your definition absolutely unusable.
   10995. Bitter Mouse Posted: November 30, 2012 at 10:35 AM (#4313274)
And as for Christmas music (and Winter music for that matter) I nominate Carol of the Bells as the best of the best, but I recognize that is a non standard choice.
   10996. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: November 30, 2012 at 10:37 AM (#4313281)
I nominate Carol of the Bells as the best of the best,


My favorite too.
   10997. spike Posted: November 30, 2012 at 10:41 AM (#4313289)
Harkening back to yesterdays' discussion of Papa John Schnatter, John Hodgeman did a star turn last night as the post electoral CEO

Really funny, and just spot on.
   10998. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: November 30, 2012 at 10:42 AM (#4313290)
As for classical vs popular, what were Fur Elise and Eine Kleine Nachtmusik in their own time if not popular diddies? In 300 years will "Hey Jude" be considered classical?
   10999. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: November 30, 2012 at 10:42 AM (#4313291)
i married a wisconsin city gal. she turned out to be cut of tough prairie stock

so yaneverknow
   11000. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: November 30, 2012 at 10:45 AM (#4313294)
flip
Page 110 of 114 pages ‹ First  < 108 109 110 111 112 >  Last ›

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
A triple short of the cycle
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogPadres resign John Johnson
(1 - 11:29pm, Dec 22)
Last: Spahn Insane

NewsblogThe Downside of the Recent Padres Acquisitions | Articles | Bill James Online
(36 - 11:24pm, Dec 22)
Last: Zach

NewsblogOT: Monthly NBA Thread - December 2014
(815 - 11:19pm, Dec 22)
Last: Rickey! trades in sheep and threats

Hall of Merit2015 Election Results - Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez & Curt Schilling elected to the Hall of Merit!
(1 - 11:13pm, Dec 22)
Last: Joey Numbaz (Scruff)

Hall of MeritNew Eligibles Year by Year
(963 - 10:59pm, Dec 22)
Last: Joey Numbaz (Scruff)

NewsblogOT: Politics - December 2014: Baseball & Politics Collide in New Thriller
(5554 - 10:54pm, Dec 22)
Last: Gonfalon Bubble

NewsblogJonah Keri's Hypothetical Hall of Fame Ballot; Plus a Randy Johnson Appreciation
(23 - 10:48pm, Dec 22)
Last: baudib

NewsblogThe 2015 HOF Ballot Collecting Gizmo!
(252 - 9:57pm, Dec 22)
Last: Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy

NewsblogYankees will pay for education of children of NYPD cop Ramos - NY Daily News
(22 - 9:54pm, Dec 22)
Last: Arbitol Dijaler

NewsblogTurner Situation Could Lead To Sea Change In Draft Pick Trades - BaseballAmerica.com
(16 - 9:37pm, Dec 22)
Last: Cabbage

NewsblogPirates Win Bidding For Jung-ho Kang
(15 - 9:26pm, Dec 22)
Last: madvillain

NewsblogOT: NBC.news: Valve isn’t making one gaming console, but multiple ‘Steam machines’
(1372 - 9:10pm, Dec 22)
Last: You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR)

Hall of Merit2015 Hall of Merit Ballot
(116 - 8:19pm, Dec 22)
Last: Joey Numbaz (Scruff)

NewsblogFree Agent Spending By Division – MLB Trade Rumors
(9 - 7:01pm, Dec 22)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogOT: Soccer December 2014
(357 - 5:38pm, Dec 22)
Last: ursus arctos

Page rendered in 0.8932 seconds
48 querie(s) executed