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Wednesday, October 31, 2012

OTP November 2012 - Moneypoll! The Pundits vs. The Election-Data Nerds

Come next Tuesday night, we’ll get a resolution (let’s hope) to a great ongoing battle of 2012: not just the Presidential election between Barack Obama and Mitt Romney, but the one between the pundits trying to analyze that race with their guts and a new breed of statistics gurus trying to forecast it with data.

In Election 2012 as seen by the pundits–political journalists on the trail, commentators in cable-news studios–the campaign is a jump ball. There’s a slight lead for Mitt Romney in national polls and slight leads for Barack Obama in swing-state polls, and no good way of predicting next Tuesday’s outcome beyond flipping a coin. ...

Bonus link: Esquire - The Enemies of Nate Silver

Joe Kehoskie Posted: October 31, 2012 at 11:42 PM | 11298 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: mr president, off-topic, politics, sabermetrics, usa

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   6001. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 08, 2012 at 04:47 PM (#4298284)
I suspect that Andy highlights my comments because a) I'm a relatively rare voice, b) I echo or reinforce much of what he says about race relations, but I have "street cred" in a way that he doesn't, c) he quotes things he likes a lot anyway.


d) the old coot can't remember what he's responding to so he has to copy it into the posts themselves.
   6002. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: November 08, 2012 at 04:47 PM (#4298285)
The other interesting lesson is George Wallace who, for all his racist diatribes, had a good record on keeping social service programs open to blacks (segregated of course), then apologized, outlined his new policies, won a primary with scant black support, and then got black support in a general election.

So the Wallace lesson would be that you can gain votes from a side you've demonized but you need to apologize and lay out a new policy and then hope your opponent is even less desirable.


Another side of the Wallace story is that he lost the 1958 Democratic gubernatorial primary when John Patterson (of Phenix City fame) allied himself with the KKK while Wallace was supported by the N-Double A.

After getting trounced, Wallace went into his backyard, grabbed a hold of a turnip, and vowed with God as his witness that he was never going to be "out-segged" again. And he wasn't.
   6003. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 08, 2012 at 04:48 PM (#4298287)
I'm sure the actors and actresses understand what the risks are. Thus, no need for a law.


And I'm sure you don't understand the industry one whit.
   6004. Bitter Mouse Posted: November 08, 2012 at 04:49 PM (#4298288)
your apparent presumption that one side would still have a "rainbow of flavors" because they're better people


Wait, what? They are the rainbow party because they have folks of many genders, races, and sexual preferences in positions of power. People feel more comfortable with voting for the party that has all those people in power, thinking that people like them are more likely to share their concerns.

I never said anything about "better people" and you really need to go back and read what I said. I used colorful language on purpose, but it wasn't THAT hard dude.
   6005. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 08, 2012 at 04:50 PM (#4298289)
Blade Runner and Speilbergian A.I. aside - I have a hard time believing that androids would ever substitute for the old-fashioned role in the hay, even for mechanical, loveless sex... couple that with increased feminine sexual empowerment, maybe we'll have see an explosion in the world's oldest profession.


Inara.
   6006. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: November 08, 2012 at 04:50 PM (#4298290)
gef

according to others i feed folks to the hogs. i neither confirm nor deny

devil

nah, i know shrill harpies. your writing in no way resembles that of my wife's sisters.........................
   6007. Joe Kehoskie Posted: November 08, 2012 at 04:50 PM (#4298291)
But both of those are too stringent. Republicans just need to run someone who is unapologetically pro-immigration, both in terms of its impact upon the country and in terms of favoring reasonable policies to deal with people who came here by some other means. Tone matters but policy matters, too. If they do that, I don't think the past 50 years will haunt them. I don't see an emphatically pro-immigration platform getting through the convention but stranger things have happened.

This only works if you completely ignore history. As I've mentioned here countless times, the Reagan immigration amnesty in 1986 did little or nothing to win Latino votes over to the GOP.

As of a year or two ago, only ~55 percent of Latinos in the U.S. age 23 or older had a high school diploma. If anyone believes Latinos will vote for the small-government GOP out of loyalty because of immigration rather than for big-goverment Dems based on pocketbook issues, they're either crazy or they're Dem saboteurs posing as political analysts.
   6008. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 08, 2012 at 04:51 PM (#4298292)
I honestly wish I knew what "grabbed a turnip" is a euphemism for.
   6009. formerly dp Posted: November 08, 2012 at 04:53 PM (#4298296)
Harsher sentencing for crack cocaine was the result of Democratic legislation in the weeks after Len Bias died, while "stop and frisk" is the policy of a liberal mayor who endorsed Obama.

If your two best examples of institutional racism are Dem policies or policies of Dems in "independent" clothing, then maybe (1) there isn't as much racism in the U.S. as alleged, and (2) fingers shouldn't be so easily pointed at the GOP.


Joe, I know following a thread can be tough in conversations like this, but my point, which you immediately parsed in a Democrat/Republican binary, was in response to SBB's claim that there's nothing we can do to address systemic/institutional racism. It's actually the opposite-- because it lives in institutions, and people create and maintain those institutions, there are things we can do to fix them. But immediately, you go back to the "your guy" vs. "my guy" thinking. I voted against Bloomberg when I had the chance, in large part because he maintained or intensified Giuliani's absurd and racist policing policies.

As to your "suppressed" video: You already stated your conclusion. Every piece of data you find is just further evidence used in support of that conclusion. Which is precisely how the research on media bias predicts you'll act. So I dismiss your faith-based 'reasoning' on the subject as just that.
   6010. zenbitz Posted: November 08, 2012 at 04:53 PM (#4298297)
What is "work"? Work is just negative entropy - organizing stuff or kinetic energy (pushing things around). Humans are pretty good at it - but of course are net energy consumers.


A good chunk of the population is not smart enough to handle those jobs, and the traditional jobs those people would ordinarily take will be mostly gone.


I don't think this is really true. There is still energy to be input into the system. A dumber person might be not very efficient at data collection and management, but it's not impossible. How is this different from saying, in 1880 - that the vast majority of people are incapable of learning to read so will be shut out of the reading-based economy. Human brains -- even below average ones -- are incredibly good at some kinds of data processing.

But energy is the key. Enough % of solar energy extracted is they means to the post scarcity society. We have to solve this anyway, because of the immortality situation just over the horizon there. You think I'm wrong? They can already, in a dish, reprogram differentiated cells into stem cells. I think people born in 2040 (in the 1st world, anyway) will never age, or age incredibly slowly. So, have to ship them off planet or whatever.

This is one thing I really like about the Global Warming "debate". It's really a LONG term problem. For instance - Fraking. Great, another cheap carbon source. The AGW projections usually don't even bother to go past "peak oil". There is a HUGE amount of Carbon still in the ground that can be burned... and then we are not talking about 1-2 degrees. What about 15 degrees C? average world wide? (in 300 years, but still...)

Humanity is going to really have to start dealing with LONG term problems. Sooner than they think!
   6011. The Good Face Posted: November 08, 2012 at 04:54 PM (#4298298)
One generation's pathology is the next generation's fun-time hobby! I think your crime, alcoholism and druggies is a worst case dystopian scenario. It's possible that people will decide to travel, see the world, meet new peoples and cultures (robot boats taking the newly freed working classes around the world on month long holidays) which in turn will build understanding and trust between nations and cultures, reducing global violence and war. Art and literature becomes a common man's game. We shoot Lassus into outer space. Everyone wins.


I think you're skipping ahead to the post-scarcity part. Everything breaks down at that point, because we have no meaningful frame of reference for what such a world would look like.

I'm focusing on the near future. It's 2025 and effective unemployment is ~40% and holding steady, with very few job opportunities for unskilled or semiskilled workers. There's no money for that 40% to travel and see the world; they're poor, living in government subsidized housing, eating government subsidized food, and living on the dole. We've already seen what that looks like, both in the US and overseas; it looks a lot like my 5979. That said, we should still shoot Lassus into outer space.
   6012. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: November 08, 2012 at 04:55 PM (#4298299)

This only works if you completely ignore history. As I've mentioned here countless times, the Reagan immigration amnesty in 1986 did little or nothing to win Latino votes over to the GOP.


It's going to take more than one vote at this point. Maybe 20 votes per year for the next 50 years. But it's possible. Blacks used to be the most reliable Republican voters there were.
   6013. Bitter Mouse Posted: November 08, 2012 at 04:55 PM (#4298300)
I'm sure the actors and actresses understand what the risks are. Thus, no need for a law.


This is the second hand smoke discussion. The nanny state side thinks bars should be smoke free so workers are not exposed to it. The Libe4rtarians think if everyone knows the risk who cares, get government out of it.

I side with the nanny state(go figure). And I don't watch porn (Sorry but it is just too damn terrible/boring for me, at least every time I was forced to watch, thankfully I don't know "that guy" any more, you know the one that loves Howard Stern and thinks hanging out watching porn is an awesome way to spend a Saturday evening).
   6014. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: November 08, 2012 at 04:55 PM (#4298301)
Romney campaign concedes Florida.
   6015. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: November 08, 2012 at 04:57 PM (#4298302)
The joke is that Obama beat Romney by two points among Cuban-Americans.

It'd be interesting to see that vote broken down by age group.



   6016. Joe Kehoskie Posted: November 08, 2012 at 04:59 PM (#4298304)
Wait, what? They are the rainbow party because they have folks of many genders, races, and sexual preferences in positions of power. People feel more comfortable with voting for the party that has all those people in power, thinking that people like them are more likely to share their concerns.

What are you talking about? Blacks and Latinos were voting overwhelmingly for Dems long before Obama came along. Reagan, Bush 41, and Bush 43 promoted Colin Powell into ever more prominent roles. Bush 41 nominated Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court. Bush 43 had a black secretary of state for all 8 years of his presidency, a Latino attorney general, a Latino commerce secretary, and Asian-American secretaries of labor and transportation, along with countless women in positions of authority. The GOP currently has more Latino U.S. senators and governors than the Dems (which has 1 and 0, respectively).

This idea that the Dems have a monopoly on diversity is nonsense. It serves only to advance this bizarre idea that minorities are either Dems or "not real blacks/Latinos/etc.," as gets hurled at everyone from Clarence Thomas to Thomas Sowell to Stacey Dash. ("Tolerance," indeed.)
   6017. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: November 08, 2012 at 04:59 PM (#4298306)
I honestly wish I knew what "grabbed a turnip" is a euphemism for.

The scene right before the intermission in GWTW, IIRC. But correct me if I've misremembered, since it's been a while since I've seen it.
   6018. zonk Posted: November 08, 2012 at 04:59 PM (#4298307)
My concern is that it's not just "Puritanism" though. People with nothing to occupy their time create social pathologies. The ones who want status but have no outlet to do so through traditional means will turn to crime. Alcoholism and drug abuse become rampant. Depression and other mental illnesses become more common. There's a lot of evidence that it's not healthy for people to just do nothing.




One generation's pathology is the next generation's fun-time hobby! I think your crime, alcoholism and druggies is a worst case dystopian scenario. It's possible that people will decide to travel, see the world, meet new peoples and cultures (robot boats taking the newly freed working classes around the world on month long holidays) which in turn will build understanding and trust between nations and cultures, reducing global violence and war. Art and literature becomes a common man's game. We shoot Lassus into outer space. Everyone wins.


I agree, TGF -- but I tend to side with Sam...

Let's set aside for a moment the idea and natural susceptibility to wanting 'more' - i.e., I might say that give me a decent enough clean and safe domicile, the means to power/heat/cool it as necessary, and sustenance enough not to go hungry - and I'll happily spend the rest of my life in thought, learning, and play, even though the reality is that then, I'd probably want a country home, a ski villa, and maybe a lakehouse... plus a bottle of Hendricks every week, the finest cut of beef for dinner, etc... but set that aside.

I do think that I could keep myself occupied with enough intellectual pursuits and (benign) leisure activities. I don't actually travel for leisure all that much, but there are definitely enough places on earth that I'd like to see to keep me traveling for more than a few years. I read a fair bit, but free up 10 more hours a day - and I'm certain I'd never run out of material enough to use up a couple of them. I enjoy movies, television, and even plays/etc -- but haven't seen or watched nearly as much as I'd like. I'd love to learn a number of foreign languages -- always wanted to become fluent enough in Russian to read Tolstoy or Dostoyevsky in the original. Since I've recently become a fair bit more physically active -- a weekly baseball game would suit me fine.

Of course, we always worry -- but -- what about the other guy....
   6019. formerly dp Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:00 PM (#4298308)
Blade Runner and Speilbergian A.I. aside - I have a hard time believing that androids would ever substitute for the old-fashioned role in the hay, even for mechanical, loveless sex... couple that with increased feminine sexual empowerment, maybe we'll have see an explosion in the world's oldest profession.


Have you seen the orgasm implant? Edit: One more.

The real issues isn't android women replacing real women, but android men, as in AI.
   6020. Lassus Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:01 PM (#4298309)
That said, we should still shoot Lassus into outer space.

Finally, something we can agree on.
   6021. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:01 PM (#4298310)
I honestly wish I knew what "grabbed a turnip" is a euphemism for.


All I know is, when we were kids we were told that if we didn't stop grabbing our turnips, we'd go blind.
   6022. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:01 PM (#4298311)
I'm focusing on the near future. It's 2025 and effective unemployment is ~40% and holding steady, with very few job opportunities for unskilled or semiskilled workers. There's no money for that 40% to travel and see the world; they're poor, living in government subsidized housing, eating government subsidized food, and living on the dole. We've already seen what that looks like, both in the US and overseas; it looks a lot like my 5979.


I suppose we'll have to put them on trains to Siberia then.

That said, we should still shoot Lassus into outer space.


Should I ever become Richard Branson rich, I'm totally going to shoot Lassus into space.
   6023. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:02 PM (#4298314)
Should I ever become Richard Branson rich, I'm totally going to shoot Lassus into space.


With or without a rocket?
   6024. The Good Face Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:02 PM (#4298316)
I don't think this is really true. There is still energy to be input into the system. A dumber person might be not very efficient at data collection and management, but it's not impossible. How is this different from saying, in 1880 - that the vast majority of people are incapable of learning to read so will be shut out of the reading-based economy. Human brains -- even below average ones -- are incredibly good at some kinds of data processing.


Why not just replace the dumb person with a machine if you're actually trying to accomplish something. Otherwise I'm not sure what you're arguing for here; is it a sort of futuristic WPA where people who can't find work would be entitled to a full suite of benefits/funding so long as they showed up someplace every day and pretended to work/didn't cause trouble?
   6025. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:02 PM (#4298317)
his idea that the Dems have a monopoly on diversity is nonsense.


It's true. We do often undersell the GOP's rainbow coalition of racists and demagogues. I mean, Sean Hannity is totally not like Glenn Beck at all!
   6026. Bitter Mouse Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:04 PM (#4298318)
What are you talking about?


The structure of the two parties. Dems have throughout their party, from top to bottom a representation of America (not as good as it could be, but still). The GOP has white men top to bottom, with some ladies and a sprinkling of others. You can keep pretending the two are the same but they are not.
   6027. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:06 PM (#4298320)
With or without a rocket?


The rocket is necessary. The physics don't work otherwise. Now, I did not stipulate that he would be on the interior of said rocket, or of said rocket had a "return to Earth" mechanism.
   6028. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:06 PM (#4298321)
his idea that the Dems have a monopoly on diversity is nonsense.

It's true. We do often undersell the GOP's rainbow coalition of racists and demagogues. I mean, Sean Hannity is totally not like Glenn Beck at all!


That's true, two completely different strains of white pseudo-Christianity right there.

Random questions:

Do Jews vote Democratic because they want free stuff or because they hate Jesus?

With Tim Russert gone, does Hannity now have the largest head in television?
   6029. McCoy Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:07 PM (#4298322)
How about we have a conversation about the Boxer Rebellion? The Golden Horde? The Great Bengal Famine of 1943?
   6030. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:08 PM (#4298323)
This idea that the Dems have a monopoly on diversity is nonsense.


Was the near-total whiteness of the crowd in Boston two nights ago simply camera angles?
   6031. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:08 PM (#4298325)
The real issues isn't android women replacing real women, but android men, as in AI.
I can't compete against a robot Jude Law.
   6032. Joe Kehoskie Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:08 PM (#4298326)
Joe, I know following a thread can be tough in conversations like this, but my point, which you immediately parsed in a Democrat/Republican binary, was in response to SBB's claim that there's nothing we can do to address systemic/institutional racism. It's actually the opposite-- because it lives in institutions, and people create and maintain those institutions, there are things we can do to fix them. But immediately, you go back to the "your guy" vs. "my guy" thinking. I voted against Bloomberg when I had the chance, in large part because he maintained or intensified Giuliani's absurd and racist policing policies.

Fine, but I didn't see you go to any great lengths (or any lengths) to disclose that the crack-cocaine sentencing laws were a Dem creation. That issue has been used as an anti-GOP talking point for decades despite being patently false.

As to your "suppressed" video: You already stated your conclusion. Every piece of data you find is just further evidence used in support of that conclusion. Which is precisely how the research on media bias predicts you'll act. So I dismiss your faith-based 'reasoning' on the subject as just that.

We know the video exists. We know CBS didn't release it for almost two months. We know the video proves Obama was less than honest in the second presidential debate. You've offered no explanations for the video not being released, yet you expect us to believe your declarations that there's no such thing as media bias. It appears your belief is much more religious than mine.
   6033. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:09 PM (#4298329)
Do Jews vote Democratic because they want free stuff or because they hate Jesus?


Illuminati. Secret cabals. NAFTA superhighway. Totes diff.
   6034. formerly dp Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:10 PM (#4298330)
It's 2025


2025 is really, really soon in terms of technological change. Check out Minority Report-- where they hired 'futurologists' to create a realistic vision of what the world would like like in 2054. Their assertion was that social and economic change, at the macro level, happens on a way less compressed timeline than we imagine/want it to.
   6035. GregD Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:10 PM (#4298331)
What are you talking about? Blacks and Latinos were voting overwhelmingly for Dems long before Obama came along. Reagan, Bush 41, and Bush 43 promoted Colin Powell into ever more prominent roles. Bush 41 nominated Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court. Bush 43 had a black secretary of state for all 8 years of his presidency, a Latino attorney general, a Latino commerce secretary, and Asian-American secretaries of labor and transportation, along with countless women in positions of authority. The GOP currently has more Latino U.S. senators and governors than the Dems (which has 1 and 0, respectively).
??? Reagan won 40% of the Latino vote. Then Pete Wilson and Pat Buchanan in different ways pushed the Republican Party as the home of real Americans, and Latino vote plummeted in 96. G W Bush ran as a moderate with open-ended policy proposals, and did much better. McCain had an interesting past but was trapped by the campaign into a rigid spot and declined. Romney ditto with even more decline.

The simplest way to read this is Republicans can do better with Latinos--not win maybe but do better--when they advocate more pro-immigrant policies. When they don't, they don't get any support.

And 40% would make a big difference! Obviously the dynamics (and size) of the Latino vote are changing, and no one knows exactly how things would play now, but if the Reagan method produced the Reagan result in 2012 (or the G W Bush method produced a G W Bush result among Latinos), we'd be talking about Barack Obama's upcoming golf vacation.
   6036. Bitter Mouse Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:11 PM (#4298332)
Do Jews vote Democratic because they want free stuff or because they hate Jesus?


How about Asians? More free stuff mongers I guess.

Senior citizens (recipients of huge amounts of government largess) however are totally not takers at all. They vote GOP because they love America and want Government to keep away from their Medicare. Sigh.

The whole "people vote for Dems to get free stuff" is going to get old really fast, but such is life.

How about we have a conversation about the Boxer Rebellion? The Golden Horde? The Great Bengal Famine of 1943?


How about the history of Byzantium/Constantinople/Instanbul?
   6037. Joe Kehoskie Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:11 PM (#4298333)
Was the near-total whiteness of the crowd in Boston two nights ago simply camera angles?

Boston's not exactly noted for its diversity in the first place, but wealthier people tend to vote for Republicans while poorer people tend to vote for Democrats. This has been my point all along.
   6038. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:12 PM (#4298335)
How about Asians? More free stuff mongers I guess.


Mongers. Mongols. Asian hordes! We should build a wall.
   6039. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:12 PM (#4298336)
Nonsense. Your theory is that Latinos wouldn't vote for Romney not because of anything Romney said or did, but because the party has some racist wingnuts on the fringes.


Yeah, "on the fringes". That's the ticket!
   6040. The Good Face Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:13 PM (#4298339)
Let's set aside for a moment the idea and natural susceptibility to wanting 'more' - i.e., I might say that give me a decent enough clean and safe domicile, the means to power/heat/cool it as necessary, and sustenance enough not to go hungry - and I'll happily spend the rest of my life in thought, learning, and play, even though the reality is that then, I'd probably want a country home, a ski villa, and maybe a lakehouse... plus a bottle of Hendricks every week, the finest cut of beef for dinner, etc... but set that aside.

I do think that I could keep myself occupied with enough intellectual pursuits and (benign) leisure activities. I don't actually travel for leisure all that much, but there are definitely enough places on earth that I'd like to see to keep me traveling for more than a few years. I read a fair bit, but free up 10 more hours a day - and I'm certain I'd never run out of material enough to use up a couple of them. I enjoy movies, television, and even plays/etc -- but haven't seen or watched nearly as much as I'd like. I'd love to learn a number of foreign languages -- always wanted to become fluent enough in Russian to read Tolstoy or Dostoyevsky in the original. Since I've recently become a fair bit more physically active -- a weekly baseball game would suit me fine.

Of course, we always worry -- but -- what about the other guy....


It's easy to say that as a middle class guy who's currently employed and has discretionary income to enjoy things like vacations, nice meals out, premium liquors, etc. An unemployed Zonk living in crappy public housing, making ends meet on food stamps and welfare, with no money to travel or enjoy most luxuries might feel differently. I used to think the same as you, and I decided to try not working for a while; I was bored after 4 months and quickly went back to working. And I was living in a lovely condo and not wanting for money; would only have been worse if I'd been poor.
   6041. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:15 PM (#4298341)
The simplest way to read this is Republicans can do better with Latinos--not win maybe but do better--when they advocate more pro-immigrant policies. When they don't, they don't get any support.


African Americans. Latinos. Asians. Jews. It's almost as if years and years of defining yourself as the party of rabid nativists who really just don't like all of those unseemly types taking over the country from "real Americans" has consequences.
   6042. formerly dp Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:16 PM (#4298342)
That issue has been used as an anti-GOP talking point for decades despite being patently false.


So you invented a straw man to fight! And you beat him up! Wow, you're so good at this.

We know the video exists. We know CBS didn't release it for almost two months. We know Obama directly contradicts a claim he made in the second presidential debate. You've offered no explanations for the video not being released, yet you expect us to believe your declarations that there's no such thing as media bias. It appears your belief is much more religious than mine.


I haven't offered an explanation for a lot of things. This is not proof of media bias. You haven't offered any evidence that it is media bias, other than "it fits my preconceived narrative that the media's in the tank for Obama, so all other possibilities are simply foreclosed."
   6043. formerly dp Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:18 PM (#4298343)
I can't compete against a robot Jude Law.

Word. But competing against human Jude Law is getting easier by the day. Repo Men? Who says yes to that?
   6044. Bitter Mouse Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:18 PM (#4298344)
The upside is, if Joe K is right, then the GOP will never win another national election again. The Dems will keep giving handouts to the poor minorities who will keep voting them into office. Ain't nothing going to stop us now.
   6045. Kurt Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:18 PM (#4298345)
2025 is really, really soon in terms of technological change. Check out Minority Report-- where they hired 'futurologists' to create a realistic vision of what the world would like like in 2054. Their assertion was that social and economic change, at the macro level, happens on a way less compressed timeline than we imagine/want it to.

According to Back to the Future we're three years away from flying cars. And of course we're exactly 100 years away from priests banning music.
   6046. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:19 PM (#4298347)
How about we have a conversation about the Boxer Rebellion?

Finally read about it a few months ago. While America might come off SLIGHTLY better than UK, Germany and others, not a fine example of American Exceptionalism.

The overthrough of Mossadegh is quite interesting. You have Ottamanish Iran, Cold War, Islamicists, depravity, a real melange. Patriot of Persia: Muhammad Mossadegh and a Tragic Anglo-American Coup.:
   6047. Ron J2 Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:19 PM (#4298348)
Is Obama the first murderer* to have been elected President?


I'm with Bitter Mouse on not accepting the basic premise (as I've said many times I am very uncomfortable with the drones program. To be more specific, I'd really like some form of judicial oversight)

That said, "Townburner" Washington and recreational duelist Andrew Jackson some to mind as having actions on their resume before being elected that are at least as serious as the way you see Obama's.
   6048. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:19 PM (#4298349)
The GOP currently has more Latino U.S. senators and governors than the Dems (which has 1 and 0, respectively).

Fact-checking Joe is a full-time job, but for the record, there are currently 7 Hispanic U.S. Senators, 4 of whom are Democrats.

There are 49 Hispanic U.S. Congressmen, 35 of whom are Democrats, 1 affiliated with both parties, and 13 of whom are Republicans. Of course Joe doesn't mention that.

But yes, there is one Hispanic governor**, and yes, she is a Republican. Big whoops.

**There may be more, but I'm going by the names. I don't see any overall list of Hispanic governors.
   6049. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:20 PM (#4298351)
So you're saying white men can jump?


You haven't met Don Nelson and his collection of white centers for the Warriors during his coaching career.
   6050. Joe Kehoskie Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:21 PM (#4298352)
??? Reagan won 40% of the Latino vote. Then Pete Wilson and Pat Buchanan in different ways pushed the Republican Party as the home of real Americans, and Latino vote plummeted in 96. G W Bush ran as a moderate with open-ended policy proposals, and did much better. McCain had an interesting past but was trapped by the campaign into a rigid spot and declined. Romney ditto with even more decline.

Reagan's immigration amnesty was in 1986, two years after his last election. He did well with Latinos because the economy was booming, not because of an immigration amnesty that happened two years after his '84 reelection.

Prop 187, meanwhile, got almost 60 percent of the vote. With city after city in California going bankrupt, it appears Pete Wilson was right to sound the alarm when he did.

The simplest way to read this is Republicans can do better with Latinos--not win maybe but do better--when they advocate more pro-immigrant policies. When they don't, they don't get any support.

No, the simplest way to read this is that the GOP does better with Latinos in strong economic times. The immigration stuff is a distraction. When your party passes the biggest immigration amnesty in the country's history, an amnesty that overwhelmingly benefited Latinos, and yet your share of the Latino vote trends down, it appears immigration isn't much of an electoral panacea.
   6051. zonk Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:21 PM (#4298354)
I think you're skipping ahead to the post-scarcity part. Everything breaks down at that point, because we have no meaningful frame of reference for what such a world would look like.

I'm focusing on the near future. It's 2025 and effective unemployment is ~40% and holding steady, with very few job opportunities for unskilled or semiskilled workers. There's no money for that 40% to travel and see the world; they're poor, living in government subsidized housing, eating government subsidized food, and living on the dole. We've already seen what that looks like, both in the US and overseas; it looks a lot like my 5979. That said, we should still shoot Lassus into outer space.


Probably no way to get around a visionary strongman/regime that certainly has a lot in common with history's dictatorial regimes...

Our problem is that 1)we've proven time and again that as a species, we are terribly, terribly awful at recognizing when that appropriate epoch is upon us, 2)we'd need the benevolent sort, and those are even rarer if not non-existent, who'd 'release us' when post-scarcity became a reality, 3)what do you about the people that aren't ready/don't want to participate for whatever reason.

As rough as that sounds, the alternatives might well be worse -- some sort of horrific selection process, some sort of age-related "old world people" vs "new world people" cut-off...

...or maybe, if we DO shoot Lassus into space, he'll just return at the appropriate time ala Buck Rogers!
   6052. DevilInABlueCap Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:22 PM (#4298355)
What are you talking about? Blacks and Latinos were voting overwhelmingly for Dems long before Obama came along. Reagan, Bush 41, and Bush 43 promoted Colin Powell into ever more prominent roles. Bush 41 nominated Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court. Bush 43 had a black secretary of state for all 8 years of his presidency, a Latino attorney general, a Latino commerce secretary, and Asian-American secretaries of labor and transportation, along with countless women in positions of authority. The GOP currently has more Latino U.S. senators and governors than the Dems (which has 1 and 0, respectively).


Your line of thinking reflects the exact problem. You think in terms of individuals. You keep saying, "but we have one of those!" like minorities are collectibles. Structurally, does the Republican Party discuss the issues of these communities and explain why Republican policies will help? It's like someone saying that Thurgood Marshall was able to get a law degree, so black people in the 40's and 50's were just whining. Democrats never talk about "who" they have. It's not necessary. Are there too few at top positions? Yes. But Democrats have a much deeper bench. Without any big names at all (remove Jindal, Haley, Rubio, Martinez), where are the brown faces? When there are rallies, why are there so few minorities? The Democratic congressional delegation now has non-Hispanic white men as a minority of their caucus.
   6053. Ron J2 Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:23 PM (#4298356)
#5935 Families are indeed funny beasts. One of my sisters is an NDP (ie socialist) activist and (probably amusing to those who know my posting history) sees me as a right-winger (because I have the nerve to attempt to refute some of the conspiracy theories beloved of the hard left)
   6054. just plain joe Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:24 PM (#4298357)
You haven't met Don Nelson and his collection of white centers for the Warriors during his coaching career.


Yet another example of a coach falling in love with players who remind him of his playing days.
   6055. zonk Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:24 PM (#4298358)

2025 is really, really soon in terms of technological change. Check out Minority Report-- where they hired 'futurologists' to create a realistic vision of what the world would like like in 2054. Their assertion was that social and economic change, at the macro level, happens on a way less compressed timeline than we imagine/want it to.


Actually - what we probably will see is a lot more use for philosophy majors... we're going to need an awful lot of ethicists of various types.
   6056. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:24 PM (#4298359)
Do Jews vote Democratic because they want free stuff or because they hate Jesus?

Well, we all know who killed Him, don't we?
   6057. Joe Kehoskie Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:24 PM (#4298360)
So you invented a straw man to fight! And you beat him up! Wow, you're so good at this.

Hey, you're the one claiming the GOP has major problems with racism and nativism without offering any evidence, while offering examples of racism that originated with, or were expanded by, Democrats.

I haven't offered an explanation for a lot of things. This is not proof of media bias. You haven't offered any evidence that it is media bias, other than "it fits my preconceived narrative that the media's in the tank for Obama, so all other possibilities are simply foreclosed."

So I guess we have dueling opinions about media bias. I've at least offered some evidence for mine.
   6058. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:25 PM (#4298361)
Boston's not exactly noted for its diversity in the first place...


Boston stats from the 2010 census:

White persons, percent, 2010 (a) 53.9%
Black persons, percent, 2010 (a) 24.4%
American Indian and Alaska Native persons, percent, 2010 (a) 0.4%
Asian persons, percent, 2010 (a) 8.9%
Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander, percent, 2010 (a) 0.0%
Persons reporting two or more races, percent, 2010 3.9%
Persons of Hispanic or Latino origin, percent, 2010 (b) 17.5%
White persons not Hispanic, percent, 2010 47.0%
   6059. GregD Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:26 PM (#4298363)
The overthrough of Mossadegh is quite interesting. You have Ottamanish Iran, Cold War, Islamicists, depravity, a real melange. Patriot of Persia: Muhammad Mossadegh and a Tragic Anglo-American Coup.:
This London Review of Books piece on de Bellaigue's book is terrific, I think. Egad. Why weren't they grateful, indeed?
   6060. Joe Kehoskie Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:26 PM (#4298364)
Fact-checking Joe is a full-time job, but for the record, there are currently 7 Hispanic U.S. Senators, 4 of whom are Democrats.

You might want to take another look at that list, Andy. You seem to be counting several dead people.
   6061. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:26 PM (#4298365)
You haven't met Don Nelson and his collection of white centers for the Warriors during his coaching career.


Yet another example of a coach falling in love with players who remind him of his playing days.

Yeah, that hillbilly center the Celtics had back in the 60's used to whoop on Big Wilt at every opportunity.
   6062. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:32 PM (#4298371)
Boston stats from the 2010 census:


Even South Boston, the epicenter of the 1974 busing riots, is now only 75% white.

When I lived across the river in Cambridge I was surrounded by Brazilians and was around the corner from an odd Haitian half-block.
   6063. zonk Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:34 PM (#4298373)
The GOP currently has more Latino U.S. senators and governors than the Dems (which has 1 and 0, respectively).

Fact-checking Joe is a full-time job, but for the record, there are currently 7 Hispanic U.S. Senators, 4 of whom are Democrats.

There are 49 Hispanic U.S. Congressmen, 35 of whom are Democrats, 1 affiliated with both parties, and 13 of whom are Republicans. Of course Joe doesn't mention that.

But yes, there is one Hispanic governor**, and yes, she is a Republican. Big whoops.

**There may be more, but I'm going by the names. I don't see any overall list of Hispanic governors.


Clearly, Joe skipped several of my posts... because the power of the Democratic party isn't numbers at the 'top' -- it's numbers on the bench, in the minor leagues, etc.

It's not the national media optics -- it's the fact that Dems can deploy ward captains, party leaders, state reps, etc almost at will to recruit, etc.

Like I said several pages ago -- it's something the Democrats have structurally focused on creating... It's less valuable having Luis Gutiérrez available to give a speech or make a TV appearance than it is valuable to have a whole roster of future Luis Gutiérrez' available to knock on doors, serve as party delegates, or otherwise be available with the shoe leather, the handshake, and the "Hi, I work for..."

Maybe the GOP has more of this than I suspect, but I don't think it's really up for debate that the Democrats simply do a better job of having a system that 1) goes out of its way to recruit them, 2) effectively advances them - that doesn't mean putting them in front of cameras, it means "Hey - you should run for state rep/etc", and 3) then likewise goes out of its way to do what always happens in politics... i.e., grooming the promising newcomer for higher office.

Sure, both parties have their 'dynasties' -- but next FL Senate cycle, will the GOP be running Connie Mack XIV, or, do they have another Marco Rubio?

   6064. The Good Face Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:34 PM (#4298374)
Probably no way to get around a visionary strongman/regime that certainly has a lot in common with history's dictatorial regimes...

Our problem is that 1)we've proven time and again that as a species, we are terribly, terribly awful at recognizing when that appropriate epoch is upon us, 2)we'd need the benevolent sort, and those are even rarer if not non-existent, who'd 'release us' when post-scarcity became a reality, 3)what do you about the people that aren't ready/don't want to participate for whatever reason.

As rough as that sounds, the alternatives might well be worse -- some sort of horrific selection process, some sort of age-related "old world people" vs "new world people" cut-off...


Best case would probably be the development of godlike AI that maintains an inexplicable fondness for humans similar to the fondness many humans have for cats. Something along the lines of the Culture novels from Iain Banks. If we're ridiculously, win-the-lottery lucky, that's what we'll end up with.

...or maybe, if we DO shoot Lassus into space, he'll just return at the appropriate time ala Buck Rogers!


Return?!??
   6065. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:35 PM (#4298375)
The GOP currently has more Latino U.S. senators and governors than the Dems (which has 1 and 0, respectively).

For the Record, there are currently 7 Hispanic Senators, 4 of whom are Democrats.

There are 49 U.S. Representatives, 35 of whom are Democrats, 1 of whom was nominated by both parties, and 13 of whom are Republicans. Of course Joe doesn't mention that.


You might want to take another look at that list, Andy. You seem to be counting several dead people.


My bad. The current breakdown is 1 Democratic and 1 Republican Senator, and 17 Democratic and 7 Republican Representatives. Not sure why you didn't mention that last breakdown.
   6066. Famous Original Joe C Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:35 PM (#4298376)
Boston's not exactly noted for its diversity in the first place...


Yeah, there's plenty of diversity in Boston, there is also still some de facto segregation of neighborhoods (a legacy of the 1960s and 70s). It's definitely changing, but it's still there to some extent. My neighborhood (Egleston Square, on the Jamaica Plain/Roxbury line) is a good example of the mixing that is finally happening.
   6067. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:37 PM (#4298380)
currently 7 Hispanic U.S. Senators


Camilo Pascual, Aurelio Rodriguez ...

Oh.

"Currently."

Never mind.

*sigh*
   6068. GregD Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:38 PM (#4298382)
Everyone has probably finished Nate's new piece but it is interesting in its ranking of states percentages relative to the national tally. If Colorado and Virginia are really the new tipping-point states, it's tricky for Republicans as they were more, not less, Democratic than the country this time around. He estimates Romney would need to have won the popular vote by nearly 3% nationally to have prevailed in the EC if the change in votes had been evenly distributed.
   6069. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:40 PM (#4298383)
and 75 percent of Latinos tell pollsters they want a bigger government with more services

So they voted for the guy whose policy proposals matched their interests, and also happened to not be running as the candidate repping the party that alienates and hates on them with vigor? Weird.
Odd, too, that a large majority of people who want bigger government with more services are willing to pay higher taxes to get it. Freeloaders, indeed.

Nor, of course, is he truly willing to let "individuals ... negotiate meanings in their own contexts." Only certain people get to do that, so long as they "negotiate" certain meanings.
Plain silliness. He never argued that we're all automatically obliged to accept someone's interpretation, only that she's entitled to that interpretation, which is then up for debate; no one is obliged to accept as given the meanings you wish to assign, or argue only within the frame you wish to create.
   6070. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:41 PM (#4298384)
it is valuable to have a whole roster of future Luis Gutiérrez' available...
I believe the plural is Gutiérri.
   6071. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:41 PM (#4298385)
well, this ain't my fight but most cities in the country filing for bankruptcy are doing so out of a combination of pension/benefit obligations that cannot be met, terrible investing decisions by prior administrations, borrowing costs that have finally come due and general stupidity.

i don't see the connection to prop 187
   6072. zonk Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:41 PM (#4298386)

Best case would probably be the development of godlike AI that maintains an inexplicable fondness for humans similar to the fondness many humans have for cats. Something along the lines of the Culture novels from Iain Banks. If we're ridiculously, win-the-lottery lucky, that's what we'll end up with.


Can't believe I forgot Banks... of course, I always intentionally ignore him because he's gotten many of ideas from playing Civilization, an idea I always had but never followed up on... the bastard.
   6073. Joe Kehoskie Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:44 PM (#4298389)
Your line of thinking reflects the exact problem. You think in terms of individuals. You keep saying, "but we have one of those!" like minorities are collectibles. Structurally, does the Republican Party discuss the issues of these communities and explain why Republican policies will help? It's like someone saying that Thurgood Marshall was able to get a law degree, so black people in the 40's and 50's were just whining. Democrats never talk about "who" they have.

Nonsense. I was simply responding to Bitter Mouse's claim that minorities vote for Dems because Dems have
a "rainbow of flavors" while the GOP is all "pale males."

It's not necessary. Are there too few at top positions? Yes. But Democrats have a much deeper bench. Without any big names at all (remove Jindal, Haley, Rubio, Martinez), where are the brown faces? When there are rallies, why are there so few minorities? The Democratic congressional delegation now has non-Hispanic white men as a minority of their caucus.

The Dems have a deeper bench with Latinos? Really?

The Dems currently have one Latino, a guy who's generally recognized as one of the sleaziest members
of the U.S. Senate (Bob Mendendez). The Republicans have Marco Rubio, who's among the most popular
Republicans in the country, and the racist Tea Party in the racist state of Texas spent millions to defeat
white guy David Dewhurst in the GOP primary in favor of Ted Cruz, who won on Tuesday and will join Rubio
in the Senate in January.

When it comes to Latino governors, the Dems have ... none. Zero. The Republicans have Susana Martinez
and Brian Sandoval.

As for "brown faces" in the crowds, I've explained this a dozen times. Latinos overwhelmingly favor bigger
government, so it's not a surprise that they aren't flocking to the party that wants to cut the size of government.
This is a simple matter of political ideology, not a matter of institutional anti-Latino (or anti-black) racism.
   6074. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:47 PM (#4298390)
Do Jews vote Democratic because they want free stuff or because they hate Jesus?

Well, we all know who killed Him, don't we?


Yeah, the Romans. And now they worship a king in a pointy hat what sits on this throne in Rome.
   6075. DA Baracus Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:47 PM (#4298391)
This, from yesterday, is #1 in my all-time (not very long) post-election tirades.

This guy needs to hook up with Elaine Benes, so they could be the King and Queen of Confrontation. And in the spirit of this "Libertarian Republican" (which is what he calls himself), anyone who doesn't like quotes can just #### off:


New York Magazine interviewed him (well, through email).

You require a risky and complicated brain surgery, one that is performed by only two neurosurgeons in the country. One is a Republican and the other is a Democrat, but the Republican is generally unknown, and the Democrat was just heralded by Time Magazine as the nation's best neurosurgeon. Everything else — the cost, location, etc. — is the same. Which doctor do you choose?

Simple: Avoid them both. Go to Mexico for your medical treatment. Avoid all the red tape and bureaucracy.


   6076. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:48 PM (#4298392)
Boston's not exactly noted for its diversity in the first place, but wealthier people tend to vote for Republicans while poorer people tend to vote for Democrats.


Hold on hippie, I though the libruls were the wealthy elitists.
   6077. Joe Kehoskie Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:49 PM (#4298393)
Sure, both parties have their 'dynasties' -- but next FL Senate cycle, will the GOP be running Connie Mack XIV, or, do they have another Marco Rubio?

Where are all these examples of white Dems voting for Latinos? Your party has one Latino U.S. senator and
zero governors, while the majority (if not vast majority) of your black and Latino House members are from
majority-minority districts.

The Dems have done a great job in forging a political coalition with blacks and Latinos, but this idea that
white Dems can't wait to vote for blacks and Latinos is assuming a lot of facts not in evidence.
   6078. Famous Original Joe C Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:50 PM (#4298397)
And now they worship a king in a pointy hat what sits on this throne in Rome.


I liked the reference, YR!
   6079. Joe Kehoskie Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:50 PM (#4298398)
DA Baracus just broke the thread. That's going to cost him votes in 2014.
   6080. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:50 PM (#4298399)
Baracus, @6075: FIX IT!
   6081. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:50 PM (#4298400)
Boston's not exactly noted for its diversity in the first place...


You got that right. Remember this? That was the funkiest guy in the whole city.
   6082. Tilden Katz Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:51 PM (#4298401)
Maybe minorities will start to give the Republicans a second look when the party's southern outfits stop doing things like debating whether to put dead racist traitors like "General" Forrest on their license plates.
   6083. DA Baracus Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:52 PM (#4298402)
DA Baracus just broke the thread. That's going to cost him votes in 2014.


Nope, I fixed it. Baracusmentum!
   6084. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:53 PM (#4298403)
currently 7 Hispanic U.S. Senators


Camilo Pascual, Aurelio Rodriguez ...

Oh.

"Currently."

Never mind.

*sigh*


*golf clap*
   6085. Tilden Katz Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:54 PM (#4298405)
this idea that white Dems can't wait to vote for blacks and Latinos is assuming a lot of facts not in evidence.


That's why we all voted against whatshisface--Barney Omaba or something--in the 2008 primaries.
   6086. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:54 PM (#4298406)
I liked the reference, YR!


A great performance ruined in a crappy movie. That romantic subplot was worse than worthless.

Anyone going to see "Lincoln"?
   6087. Famous Original Joe C Posted: November 08, 2012 at 05:56 PM (#4298407)
A great performance ruined in a crappy movie. That romantic subplot was worse than worthless.


Agreed. When I rewatch it now I just skip to all of his scenes. And yes, I plan to go see Lincoln - again, just to watch Mr. Lewis do his thing.
   6088. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 08, 2012 at 06:01 PM (#4298412)

New York Magazine interviewed him (well, through email).


He seems to be wavering in that interview at various points as he answers the questions. Perhaps he is not as mentally deranged as he appears.

I'd love to know how, sitting from his perch in Libertaria, Obama is a plague to him but Romney is just fine. From where he is sitting they should both be unacceptable.
   6089. Joe Kehoskie Posted: November 08, 2012 at 06:02 PM (#4298413)
Nope, I fixed it. Baracusmentum!

That seals it. Time to pick out new drapes.

***
That's why we all voted against whatshisface--Barney Omaba or something--in the 2008 primaries.

Barney Omaba didn't even win enough delegates during the primary to secure the nomination. That's another of those pesky facts revisionist Dems like to leave out of the narrative.
   6090. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 08, 2012 at 06:08 PM (#4298415)
Barney Omaba didn't even win enough delegates during the primary to seal the nomination. That's another of those pesky facts revisionist Dems like to leave out of the narrative.


What on earth are you babbling about here?
   6091. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: November 08, 2012 at 06:10 PM (#4298416)
Barney Omaba didn't even win enough delegates during the primary to seal the nomination. That's another of those pesky facts revisionist Dems like to leave out of the narrative.
Uh, wot now?
   6092. Tilden Katz Posted: November 08, 2012 at 06:11 PM (#4298417)
I gotta give the Unskewed Polls guy credit. Unlike the bloviators like Rove and Will, he's admitted he was wrong and has tipped his cap to Nate. And he's not taking his site down.
   6093. Joe Kehoskie Posted: November 08, 2012 at 06:12 PM (#4298418)
What on earth are you babbling about here?
Uh, wot now?

LOL. How soon they forget.
   6094. Ron J2 Posted: November 08, 2012 at 06:12 PM (#4298419)
Interesting news on the Canadian legal front. Pzizer's Viagra patent is found to be invalid. Inadequate disclosure at the time the patent was filed.

Quoting from the decision: “Pfizer had the information needed to disclose the useful compound and chose not to release it. Even though Pfizer knew that the effective compound was sildenafil at the time it filed the application, it limited its description,” Justice Louis LeBel wrote in the decision.

There has been a “certain complacence” amongst patent lawyers that if the disclosure information was sufficient to satisfy the patent office, then that patent was unassailable -- a not quite quote from a lawyer not involved in the case.
   6095. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: November 08, 2012 at 06:13 PM (#4298420)
I gotta give the Unskewed Polls guy credit. Unlike the bloviators like Rove and Will, he's admitted he was wrong and has tipped his cap to Nate. And he's not taking his site down.
I'll credit him when he apologizes for his gay-baiting of Silver.
   6096. Tilden Katz Posted: November 08, 2012 at 06:14 PM (#4298421)
I'll credit him when he apologizes for the gay-baiting of Silver.


Oh right, forgot about that. I retract the credit.
   6097. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: November 08, 2012 at 06:20 PM (#4298423)
Joe is presumably referring to the fact that, while Obama won more than half of the delegates awarded in the primaries, he didn't win by so much that he could take the nomination without support from superdelegates. I'm not sure what this proves, but there it is.
   6098. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: November 08, 2012 at 06:24 PM (#4298425)
Joe is presumably referring to the fact that, while Obama won more than half of the delegates awarded in the primaries, he didn't win by so much that he could take the nomination without support from superdelegates. I'm not sure what this proves, but there it is.
(wanking motion)
   6099. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 08, 2012 at 06:25 PM (#4298427)
Joe is presumably referring to the fact that, while Obama won more than half of the delegates awarded in the primaries, he didn't win by so much that he could take the nomination without support from superdelegates. I'm not sure what this proves, but there it is.


It proves the libruls were so reluctant to vote for a negro that the split the vote with a lesbian. I think.
   6100. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: November 08, 2012 at 06:25 PM (#4298428)
I'd love to know how, sitting from his perch in Libertaria, Obama is a plague to him but Romney is just fine. From where he is sitting they should both be unacceptable.


I used to find it odd that many Libertarians hated the Dems but thought the GOP was just fine and dandy... I mean I can see one concluding that the Reps were the lesser of two evils- but I've run into may a self-proclaimed libertarian who not only hates the Dems but is an enthusiastic GOPer...

My thoughts on them is either (i)they are not really libertarians, they think its cool to say they are but they are really "bog standard conservatives; or (ii) seriously deluded about what the GOP is and stands for.

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